The Curious Roots podcast digs deep in the living earth of our personal, familial and communal lives to help us understand how we exist in the world today. Though the format of the podcast may vary from season to season, be it narratives, one-on-one interviews or panel discussions, the root line is the same. What are the stories from our family and community histories that travel with us into the present? How do we understand and work with these histories as both individuals and as collectives to create the world of now and the future?
Season one of the podcast begins with the maternal story of my own curious roots, still buried, but breathing and holding fast in Harris Neck, Georgia. Each week, in six short form episodes, I’ll share the story of my mother’s people and how it informs my life today.
Curious Roots is hosted by Michelle McCrary and is co-produced by Moonshadow Productions and Converge Collaborative.
michelle: Welcome to Curious Roots. I'm Michelle McCrary and the This is a special bonus episode of Curious Roots. We sat down with genealogists and researcher Terri Ward of Virginia Genealogy to talk about the 1619 project television series on Hulu, which premiered back in February, episode six of this series was called Justice and featured Harris Neck.
Terri and I talk about that episode and some of our impressions of what was shared. We also talk about the legacy of Mustafa Shaw and what we can learn from his defiance today. And then we wrap up with a discussion of the ghosts of the Confederacy and how they continue to haunt legislatures across the country, including a discussion of what happened in Tennessee and how.
The expulsion of Justin Pearson and Justin Jones eerily mirrors some things that happened in Macintosh County during reconstruction. Thanks to everyone who listens to Season one of Curious Roots. I hope you enjoy these bonus episodes.
1619 Project Trailer V/O:
In 1619, enslaved Africans were brought across the water the first to arrive over 400 years ago. And although they tried to break our ancestors to erase our identities, we forged a new culture of our own. Giving birth to ourselves somewhere out there in Little Shack. My father was born then, so will I. Another cotton plantation. Talk about the state of American democracy. Right now. One of our major parties is no longer fully committed to democracy. We can't give up. Black women today suffer the highest infant mortality rates in the industrialized world. There's a direct link to the challenges that women had giving birth during slavery. One thing about dad, he was patriotic. He was a part of that United States army, but hey, you serve your country. Don't mean in your country gonna serve you. Reparations is about repair. It's a debt that's overdue. It can't be overstated. How much violence? Black Americans were subjected to when it comes to black communities, the role of the police has been about surveillance and control. Music is like a soothing ornament to a trouble soul. I wanna be able to look back and say, I did this so that you didn't have to. That's what legacy is all about.
This is where our story as Black Americans begins.
michelle: That was the trailer from the Hulu Jockey series. The 1619 project. Harris Neck was featured in an episode called Justice, which was the sixth episode of the series. It was directed by Roger Ross Williams and Jonathan klas. It originally aired on February 9th. Terry Ward and I watched the episode, and this is our discussion about what we saw,
the 1619 project. I wasn't gonna watch it again because I watched it the first time. I did. Yeah. And I did, I actually watched, um, most of it right before we hopped on and, um, Because it was hard to watch the first time for me. And, um, I wanna know from you, from your perspective, as somebody who has done so much work, researching our families and researching and entire area, Liberty County, Glynn County, McIntosh County, what were your overall impressions?
terri: Well, first and foremost, I was so pleased to see the type of attention put into the production because I feel like it's been long overdue. There's a lot of history tied up in, in coastal Georgia and specifically in Macintosh County, which gives this impression that it's still. Frozen and stuck in time, uh, with very little development and little progress basically since the thirties.
That was the impression that I had as a young child when I first started visiting out there. So, um, when I started actually digging into the records, And one story after another would unfold. And you know, they're not just as people would say, oh, you're, you're digging into these records. It's just another slave story.
More, more pain, more blame, more, you know, who did what to who. They're much more than that. And I thought that the, uh, production really did help to, uh, capture. The essence of what's happened along the coast, the, uh, the spirit of the people. Uh, I was bowled over when I saw Wilson Moran, uh, featured and ha hearing his side of the story, having lived it from, from a inception, the removal, you know, from Harris Neck with his mother being actually pregnant with him, and, you know, coming into this world and basically being given, uh, this spiritual directive.
To recover the property and, uh, you know, bring the land back into the hands of these people that had gone through so much to attain it, to work it, uh, live off it, and with the hopes of one day passing it down to their children. So again, when I, uh, look at the entire production, I'm just so appreciative that a spotlight is finally shown on coastal Georgia in all that happened there.
michelle: Yeah, and the thing that I really appreciated is the front loading the systems. And I think to your point, it kind of like refocus us on the people who would derail the conversation about individual blame and sort of like at the individual level. Just talking about the level of exploitation that the system itself just sets up.
You know, enslaved people work them for centuries. No compensation, no quality of life, just pure brutality. Then they do everything to. Free themselves with some accomplices. You know, we went through the story in the second episode, in the third episode of the podcast. You know, you shared with us about Reverend Frazier and they, they repeat the same story, obviously in the 1619 project.
That episode is in entitled Justice and the sixth and last episode in the series. Yeah, they, they set that up and then you kind of like, people are free now, and then you look at them and you're like, oh, right, you need land. Okay, logical, have the land. And then again, the system does what it does and continues to do that.
So I appreciated, um, that, and of course seeing Mr. Moran, um, and always how beautiful Harris Neck is. And it reminds me of the times that I've gone there with him and walking around, um, and hearing Miss Evelyn's voice again, cuz she was another person who I walked around, you know, the area. With her and kind of going through all the stories and we shared those in the podcast.
Yeah, I, I really did appreciate it and I appreciated the whole setup. And I also was watching it and I was like, oh, Jadon, Relaford, is that Mr. Er, Mr. Winston's? Is that his son or his grandson?
terri: I'm not certain how they are tied, but he is definitely on that Relaford line that descends from. Uh, Winston's, uh, family.
Same line.
michelle: Right? Right. Cuz I looked at him, I was like, he even looks like, um, Mr. Winston a little bit. Yes, he does. He, yes,
terri: he does that. That immediately struck me too. Um, but again, you know, the cinematography really captured the. The beauty of the area. And for me, watching the cameras span across, you know, the, the water and all that foliage, and you could see the abundance that was naturally there.
These people once enjoyed it, only drove home a sense of loss even deeper. Right? But, um, in, in saying that, um, it also made me think again about the struggle and why this need to recover it. Hasn't died. You know, they, they realize how much they lost. They were building a thriving community in, in 1942. And this is one thing that I think a lot of people have a hard time grasping when they think of the African, uh, community in that time period.
Uh, you know, we have been, uh, Fed these stories of sub the subsistence farming. And, and that was the case. You know, they would raise just enough to, uh, feed their families well, uh, their neighbors and their community. Uh, but they got away from the legacy that was, uh, supposed to be handed down by the former planters in which they would return to these fields and start picking cotton and, and going back.
Well, in our case, the rice fields again. Um, I am impressed because they, uh, Self-determined, basically exercised their agency, built this beautiful community with a church, a solidly attended church, school, a school, different merchants, beautiful homes, you know, they were happy. And then the excuse provided by, uh, the government in terms of taking the, the property for a military base to just.
Unhinged everything within, well, you know, they were supposed to get two weeks, but according to cousin Mary Moran, they were just, uh, given days. And, uh, I remember talking to Evelyn Greer and she was explaining to, to us that she had gone, uh, to school that day and was on her way home to see her home in flames.
I just, I cannot imagine the trauma for a small child. To basically see everything that they've known gone in seconds.
michelle: Yeah, and I thought about that when I saw the plaque of Ralph Baisden, one of my kin, who was a teacher at the school. Just imagining everything he went through and his. Father sending him up north and you told me he sent him up north to Columbia and then he comes back and he taught Miss Mary and he probably taught Miss Evelyn and to see, you know, the school gone, you know, the whole community.
He lived his whole life gone. And I know that sense of loss was there for my grandmother too, because she was born in 33. And she, I know that she knew that place as it was, uh, from her childhood memories too. Um, and from her family who lived there. Um, my grandmother, Margaret Baisden, for those who listened to the podcast before, um, yes.
terri: And they were traumatized. They were traumatized. Yeah. And then they are raised by people, uh, you know, who. Basically we're caught in the middle of this, and I, I actually have the letters of Thomas Mifflin that he was writing to his daughter at that time who lived up north, and the pain jumps off the page as he describes, you know, the, you know, what was happening over the course of a couple of weeks and how, you know, he was prepared to.
Uh, lose his property or he was emotionally trying to prepare himself, but I can't say quite successfully because he was one, just his cousin, uh, Wilson Moran had mentioned, um, he was one to, uh, die shortly after, uh, the removal. They'd lost everything they owned. They didn't have anything to focus on or, you know, in terms of the future, and, and again, these are people as we say, that did everything right.
Uh, right. According to what was expected in terms of acquiring the American dream, you know, they worked hard, you know, they, they saved up money. They purchased the property outright, nothing was given to them, you know, and, and I, it really struck me to hear, uh, Evelyn Greer say, you know, we're not begging for handouts.
This was theirs. They, they owned it, they worked it, they developed it. They built it. And just like that
michelle: gone. And that is so profound to me. And it's like, it brings up two things when you talk about this. Um, the one thing is, is the narrative of many communities who are. Outside the black community who don't know anything about us, who don't know anything about our history, um, about, oh, they're just asking for handouts.
This whole conversation brings us into these times because what I think, what I know, I don't think, what I know they're trying to do is this continued erasure. So if people are ignorant of your history and they don't know that this is what your family went through or what your people went through, then they can kind of flap their gums and talk about, well, you know, you're asking for a handout.
Nobody gave, you know, my immigrant, whoever, a handout, nobody did any of these things and. People don't understand just how long we've been in this country, and they also don't understand our history and the intentional taking of the communities and the lives and the wealth that we tried to build. So that to me is like what is really striking to just have this on record, you know, at this scale of a major streamer on Hulu.
With, um, such, uh, uh, an incredible production, um, you know, Roger Williams and you know, Nicole Hannah Jones and all those folks. Like, I appreciate all of that. But then to come back to what you said about trauma, And, um, Thomas Mifflin and, and what Mr. Moran said in the episode about people being so broken hearted that they just like, you know, just expired.
Literally in that time period, I was struck when Jadon said, you know, I didn't learn about what really happened till I was an adult. And I was like, oh my God, that's the same for me. And I thought about that as a piece of the trauma that it was so hard. For the old folks to even articulate. And I know my grandmother never talked about exactly what happened when she finally opened up and we went down there and spoke to everybody.
I was like, wow. And even now I'm still coming to new understandings, um, about that. Um,
terri: Well, I was living in Europe when, uh, in the mid seventies, Mike Wallace did the reporting. And because we lived abroad, my father always made it a point that whenever we went home, he would take us around and he would take us out to Harris Neck and say, see all this?
And I'm, you're just taken in by the, by the beauty of it, all the rivers, the water. And he was like, this used to be ours. And so I had heard about it at a fairly young age. I guess again, I would probably be a pre-teen at that time. But I had heard about it, I knew it. He connected us with it by, uh, sharing that my, uh, great-grandmother, Lucretia Delegal actually owned a store on Harris Neck.
And, uh, and again, I was surprised because I'm thinking this is a female and she's a merchant and she's a successful merchant, you know, earning her way. Um, so. I had some idea of, of what we lost. But what has always surprised me is how little of this history is taught. And especially when I would go home and I would talk to other cousins from the area and they had no idea.
But again, part of the playbook, um, in terms of what's happening, whether it's today or even, you know, Well, you know, 40, 60 years ago, um, it's discontinuance basically to, um, pretty much shield or cover the past. And this idea that somehow due to move past this without the opportunity, not just in terms of reparations, but in terms of just healing, you know, from this, this trauma that was infl inflicted.
Um, that's, that's the part that still. Today, and that's the part that I think that a lot of people don't give, uh, don't get. It's, um, and it's unfortunate because as long as we continue to down this path basically, and, and not give voice, not validate the circumstances, the losses, we will never. Never heal from this injury and it will be passed down generation after generation.
We will reli, relive in many aspects the same cycle. Right. And, um, we don't resolve the problem.
michelle: What do you think audiences will get from this? Do you feel like it'll have an impact on people?
terri: Well, for descendants, I am pretty certain it's been very impactful because they now have a better understanding as to what happened.
It also explains the, the environment that they were each raised in. You know, why you may have say a grandparent that was so angry or internalized this situation or, you know, uh, might have been more cynical than say, you know, kids that have no. Understanding, uh, or never touched it. Like I said, I was raised in, in Europe, so it was so distant and far away, you know, from what actually happened to internalize it, you know, properly.
But, um, and that's where again, I was grateful to, uh, have the time that I spent with Ms. Greer, Ms. Greer, and uh, Uh, Mary Moran, Robbie Thorpe, uh, Kenneth Dunham, all of them as they, they shared these stories and the details that have that spilled out. I'd like to think, um, you know, knowledge is power. I like to think that it'll sit in and that at some point it will motivate, uh, this next generation to not accept it.
And, and to move and push this forward. But like yourself, there is a cynicism because I've seen, again, I. The efforts made and, uh, that here we are still today without, uh, much progress. And it's not by the failings of, of these freedom fighters. I mean, you, you, you don't get any better when you look at say, um, you know, Wilson Moran, Kenneth Dunham, uh, Okay.
Uh, Reverend Timmons, you know, everybody that, uh, you know, raised their, their voices and they pushed back, you know, uh, Mary Moran, they did an exceptional job. But again, you're looking at the environment in which we still. Are addressing this where you know, we're not taken seriously or you know, you know, again, encouraged to move on as if somehow or another you know, they that we are able to detach.
And cuz I get a lot of people, and I've seen representative after representatives say, you, well, why would we give reparations when. Uh, happened 150 years ago, you know, and none of us, you know, were living at that time and there's nothing to blame and they're able to detach, right. But we never will. We will carry this
michelle: burden.
Yeah, and also quietly just to speak on that, in the episode, Nicole Hannah Jones says that there are still about 49 million white families still benefiting from the Homestead Act. Yes. From, you know, the 18 hundreds. So I really would like anybody to sort of, you know, kill that noise about it happened so long ago, and why would we pay you, you know, if that is the case, then.
You should give back all that land that you got from the homestead at indigenous people have a very robust. Uh, process system, ideology, cosmology around land back. You can easily return that land since, you know, you can't be bothered with anything that happened so long ago.
terri: Well stick a pin in that because I would wanna make another point.
Uh, it's a fallacy too, in terms of people being compensated for these types of hardships because even after Revolutionary War and Slaves removed ex uh, In particular, a number of them were taken away by the British two to Canada. Those former planters were compensated? Oh, absolutely. And there was an attempt, I, I'm still looking for the paperwork on it, but there was an attempt after the Civil War, they actually started taking applications to reimburse the former planters for the loss.
So again, you know, it doesn't make sense. It's a, it's a. Argument that pretty much takes place when it comes to black people, African Americans being compensated and again, having access to the rights of citizenship. Right. For whatever reason we've always been, and we still continue to be considered somewhat aliens and we've never been able to exercise the full, uh, freedoms that are granted within this nation to, to.
Two others.
michelle: Thank you for listening to this special bonus episode of Curious Roots. Thanks so much to Terry Ward of Ujima genealogy for sitting down with us again and talking about this special. 1619 Project Hulu series. Um, it's really worth watching it's gorgeously shot. It's incredibly informative and the structure of the docuseries really gets at the heart of the movement.
For reparations and the necessity for repair of the legacy of enslavement and Jim Crow and redlining and all those things. So please check out the, uh, Hulu docuseries. Um, if you have access to Hulu, it's, it's really great. On the next bonus episode, Terry and I get into a little more detail about the legacy of Mustafa Shaw, and I'm really excited to share that with you.
And then for the last bonus episode, we talk a bit about the Tennessee legislature and some parallels to the. Anti-democratic machinations that happened in Mcintosh County during. Reconstruction. Um, I think you can kind of see the seeds of where we are now being planted, um, during reconstruction. So Terry and I get into that in the final bonus episode.
Thank you so much again for listening, and please don't forget to follow Curious Roots on Instagram at Curious Roots Pod. Check out our website for more resources, curious roots pod.com. And. Thank you so much again for listening.
If you wanna know more about the stories and histories you've heard on Curious Roots, check out curious roots pod.com for reading lists and other resources about Harris Neck and the Gullah Geechee communities across the coastal south. And don't forget to sign up for the Curious Ruth's newsletter to receive more special content only available to subscribers.
Curious Roots is co-produced by Converge Collaborative at Moon Shadow Productions. Our theme music is courtesy of Makaih Beats. Please rate review a subscribe to the podcast on Apple's, Spotify, Stitcher, or however you listen to your podcast. Don't forget to check out curious roots pod.com if you want to learn more about what you've heard.
Big thank you to our producer, pat McMahon. My deepest gratitude to Mr. Wilson Moran and to the community of Harris Neck. Big thank yous to Terry Ward and Adolphus Armstrong of Ujima Genealogy. And thank you to my relatives who are now with the ancestors, especially Ms. Mary Moran and my grandmother Margaret Baisden White.
Thank you all for listening to Curious Roots.