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John Bower, the lead pastor at Normandy Church in Dallas, TX joins Stephen for the first of a four-part series on relational needs. This week, they discuss the pain and potential within relational needs, how shame can hinder us in meeting our relational needs, the role of attachment within relationship, why it's important for us to meet our relational needs outside of the mentor/mentee relationship, and how social media can shape our identity.
Show Notes
- John Bower - https://www.jsbower.com/
- Normandy Church - https://normandychurch.com/
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
Mentors jump into mentoring relationships for a lot of different reasons. It may be because they had a mentor growing up. It could be because they know what it's like to not have a dad around. It could be because of something they saw in the news. It could be because they know that they can't commit to foster care but could make a weekly mentor relationship work.
Speaker 1:All in all, mentors have something to give. That's what gives them the confidence to jump in the mentoring. But there's a problem with this approach. Mentors can come into the mentoring relationship focused on what they have, what they can teach, what they bring to the table, what they're desiring for the relationship. It's good to have experience, skills, and desires and goals for the relationship.
Speaker 1:Don't get me wrong. Rather than focusing on sharing their wealth of knowledge or imparting skills, effective mentors focus on meeting relational needs. Relational needs are the bedrock of mentoring relationships with kids from hard places. In this series, we're gonna be discussing relational needs in mentoring relationships with John Bauer, the lead pastor of Normandy Church in Dallas, Texas. Welcome back to the You Can Mentor podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Steven, and I'm here with a special guest, Jon Bauer. How the heck are you?
Speaker 2:My friend, I'm well.
Speaker 1:I'm a
Speaker 2:lot better than that intro you tried to give earlier. But I'm about COVID COVID ed it out. That's a thing. Yes. But well I'm doing well, man.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to be with you.
Speaker 1:Yes. You were just sharing about the liberation of your children, just just the difficulties of having how many kids do you have?
Speaker 2:3 boys. 3 boys.
Speaker 1:And so they're they've been cooped up for months now. Months. And tell tell me what what just happened.
Speaker 2:They're very libertarian. It's like they came with a come and take it flag on their backside, and this caged bird is gonna fly. I mean, they're just out and about, and we live in a neighborhood that have lots of kiddos, and we tried to keep them in for about 3 weeks, 4 weeks. It was helpful that it started with a huge rainstorm for, like, 2 weeks, so that helped us keep him inside. But like I said, those boys, they're gone.
Speaker 2:They're out and about.
Speaker 1:What do you do once they're exposed, I mean, to the outside world, to children you don't know? Do you just you put them in a closet, or you have a place you keep them?
Speaker 2:This is a mentoring podcast. Right? No. I mean, the nice thing is, like, I mean, of all things, the the best part about it is, like, there's no baseball games, there's no all these ask for school activities, and the kids are just kinda free ranged. And it's been so cool to see our neighbors, and so we see the same people.
Speaker 2:And we've done some exercises and hand washing, although our 7 year old wouldn't know how to wash his hands if mother Teresa taught him how. But, yeah, man, there's no closets. You know? Nothing like that, but a lot of hand washing and hand sanitizer. So It's
Speaker 1:good. If CPS was listening, they they would have got you there, but it's good.
Speaker 2:That's not how I expected this to go.
Speaker 1:It's okay. My mom doesn't even listen to this, so there's no way CPS does. Before we jump into the relational needs series, John, I'd love for you to share a little about yourself so listeners who aren't aware of who you are would have a reason to listen to you. Mhmm. So paint a picture for our listeners, who is Jon Bauer?
Speaker 2:Well, the first thing I would say, and I probably wouldn't have said this a year ago because it would feel cheesy to my inner frat boy, that I'm a warrior priest. I've done a lot of work as far as unpacking identity because for a while there, who I was is really dependent on what I did as opposed to just understanding how God made me, calling, you know, how I was wired, the gifts that I've been given, and I love the metaphor. I mean, people love stories. They love hearing that's why we go to the movies and pay tons of money to sit in front of a screen, or that's why we watch Netflix or go watch a sports ball team play and, like, just jump up and scream when something miraculous happens that we're watching. And so I've come to I've come to understand myself as a warrior priest, and just in that metaphor, it it makes sense.
Speaker 2:I think that I have an innate desire to see people set free, and I'm I do better when I have something to fight for or people to fight for, to believe for, to encourage. And so, really, that metaphor kinda sums up a lot that I've learned. It's this idea that, yeah, I wanna bring people in that are lost, looking lonely, hurting, and broken, help them understand who they are, who God is, and then, by God's good grace, send them out with a greater sense of purpose and passion so they're free to really fully be human. But then I wanna go do it all over again. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Get some people healed whole, have them some get them into a place where they have relational experiences with the Lord or with others and see how much that shapes them, heals them, forms them. And then I wanna grab 1 or 2 else and then go out to the highways and byways and find, more ex frat guys like me that were such huge tools that you would never imagine that they'd be a pastor, later on in life. So I do enjoy that when people say your pastor is who? John Bauer? I knew him in college.
Speaker 2:Why is he a pastor? So that more or less sums it all up. So warrior priest practically speaking, church planner, which means help start a church, which is difficult in Dallas because you trip over churches on the way out of your neighborhood. And so trying to convince people that a church is needed is difficult. But I've been doing that for about 8 years, but going back beyond that was I led a men's bible study that kind of organically grew to be the church that we've got.
Speaker 2:Married to a beautiful lady that's way outside of my league named Casey. She's creative, wonderful, awesome. And last year, we started some businesses, which has been cool. So she's kind of started a she hasn't kind of started. She has started a hat company, and it's been a creative outlet for her.
Speaker 2:And so I've started that, and I've started some coaching and consulting, which has been fun. And 3 boys, first one's adopted, and then 2 bio boys. So all boys. She's a boy mom, and so that's been an adventure, and humiliating, but good. And yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of a little bit about me and what I do on the daily.
Speaker 1:I love it. So, really, you'd you'd probably say that the warrior priest identity flows into every area of your life, not just as a pastor, but in your family as well and your community. Yes. Could you could you just share what that looks like in your family?
Speaker 2:Well, man, that's a good question. A year and a half ago I mean, here in COVID, it's day. Right? What day is today? Well, it's day.
Speaker 2:So I'm not good with times and epochs of time. It was 4 score and 7 years ago. I don't know. But about a year and a half year a year and a half or so, maybe 2 years ago, I was put on leave because I was just burnt out spiritually and emotionally. And I realized that my identity was so wrapped in doing.
Speaker 2:And so I was not a pastor for about 6 months, and so I was like, what do I do? And through that time, that's where this idea of warrior priest and a couple other things came out. And through that time, I realized that my doing was supposed to flow out of my being. Like, who I am would just affect what I do, and it didn't matter what my title was, what my role was. So as I started to gain more health spiritually and emotionally, I realized that I was walking in my identity, and the natural part of who I am just flowed out no matter where I was.
Speaker 2:So it was Home Depot and and and talking to people, paying attention to him, praying with him, whether it was with people at the gym or whether it was at home, who I was started to manifest or become a parent, and I was a lot more pleasant to be around. And so, really, like, even with my son most recently, we had some conflict, had some discipline, and I had to repent. I had to apologize for some different things. And so when it flows well, when I'm really walking in who I am, it brings a lot of safety and security and identity to my family. So it's like this reminder, it's someone that's fighting for and believing for the best for my wife and going, no, babe.
Speaker 2:This is who you are. And I think one of the biggest shifts in that, how it manifests at home was this idea of desiring to be a team with Casey, because I'm such a driver. I'm such a pusher. I wanna lead and take a mountain. And I had this phrase vision or die, but the problem is if people get in the way when it's vision or die, then they get in the way and they die.
Speaker 2:And, oh, by the way, I died along the way a 1,000 deaths. But this shift came. It's like, I wanna be a warrior priest with my bride. I wanna be on the same team as her, and so that was a huge shift. So I I I think that's changed.
Speaker 2:And, of course, I don't I go in and out of walking in my identity, air quotes there. And, but when I'm walking in it, it becomes this leader that's that priest side of it, that tender side of it, that kind of gets past the rough exterior and into the interior, which, it's all about relationships. I mean, that's what mentoring is about. That's what business is about. It's all about relationships.
Speaker 2:And so when I'm walking in that with a deep sense of attachment and purpose, our family thrives. And when I don't, it's we're left with that warrior side, and it just kinda wears everybody out, including myself. So that's, I think, how it manifests at home is is the more I'm being who I'm made to be, the more life happens in my home. And granted, we've got 3 boys and lots of diapers and lots of wamps with metal objects towards one another. So sometimes life is life as my son, Jude, says.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Anyway
Speaker 1:Wise dude. Well, I I love yeah. Just the identity God speaking over you, John, and I I would say that that's true. I think you are a warrior priest, and I love the idea of being a priest just in the sense that priests are are an office that connects people to God in some way, like the old testament. It's like they're managing the sacrifices and keeping the tabernacle organized and ready to go to receive the people and to connect them with God.
Speaker 1:And then, I mean, Jesus is our high priest, and he is he's the one who makes the connection, the relational connection between us and the father and breaks the divide. And then he calls us a royal priesthood Mhmm. To to go out and be ministers of reconciliation. And I I think that that's that's something that God wants to place in us is this this priestly identity of which I think connects with the relational needs that we're gonna discuss today Mhmm. Is just that really there is a desire to see relationships in in greater health and greater connection, and we have we have a part to play within that.
Speaker 1:And recognizing what our part is is really vital. As a mentor, what is what is your part in this relationship to create health in the life of a kid from a hard place? And and recognizing what is not your role and and where where we cross into something that's not our job or not not what god expects of us is where we get into that place of the human doing, not the human being Mhmm. Who who he's called us to be.
Speaker 2:Right. So just to go back to that priest idea, that priest metaphor, and I don't know how many of the listeners are Christian or not, but the idea of the priest was all about presence. And so it you can get in the Old Testament, it seems really complicated, but their role was really to minister to God, and by that, I mean be with them. It's it was about presence and then minister to the people. And so it was all about presence and the idea of how can a holy God dwell with people that are unholy, meaning his holiness is so good.
Speaker 2:It's so powerful. How can you be with someone that it's like a sun. How can you inhabit the sun unless something changes? But regardless, it's all about presence. And so when I think about the idea of mentoring, it's all about presence.
Speaker 2:It's all about being and not really about doing. It's all about being with them in a way that actually connects to them and and and the idea of attachment. Attachment is a deep emotional bond that endures across space and time. So I think the idea of mentoring, just carrying over that priest metaphor is really about presence. I learned this from my granddad who is basically one of the first megachurch pastors in Houston long time ago, and he just told me, he's like, you just show up.
Speaker 2:Literally, the the ministry of presence is just about being there. And so I think today and over these few podcasts, what we'll be talking about is, like, how you can be there effectively. Because as we'll discuss, our brains are literally hardwired neurologically to connect to people. Like, we are going to attach, we're going to connect to someone or something, and so we carry that idea into attachment, into connection, and connection and presence into mentoring. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a pretty good segue into what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's great. Well, we can't talk about everything in one sitting. So what we're gonna do is break up this series into 4 talks. This first episode, we're gonna be talking about the pain and potential within relational needs.
Speaker 1:So, John, let me jump into these questions. Why are our relational needs foundational to mentoring relationships?
Speaker 2:For those people I've been tracking with, walking with, spending time with, I I've had this this word that I just keep overusing, and it's framework. So I think part of my goal is to help give people, a new set of glasses or lenses to view themselves and view the world. And when we think about relational needs, I wanna back up just a little bit and and say, well, we all know we have physical needs, like we need air and water and sleep. From the Christian standpoint, we have spiritual needs. We need salvation.
Speaker 2:But oftentimes, we get really confused with the idea that we need other people. That's the idea of relational needs. That unless we actually have healthy relationships and secure attachments, we're flat out not going to thrive. We're not gonna grow in purpose and identity. In fact, it's going to inhibit or hinder who we are, what we're doing at work, at home, vocationally, recreationally.
Speaker 2:We are so hardwired for relationships and we have these needs just like air, just like water, that if they're not met, things start to go south. So and this is difficult for those who are Christians because they think all they need is God. And there's some truth in that, but it can be overused to the point where they think they're, what, the Robinson Caruso of Christianity, just me and Jesus, but that just flat out doesn't work. It just does not work. And just in my travels around the world, whether it's in in Mongolia, whether it's in, like, a a Latin American country, whether it's an African American community or a upper middle class community, when we get to the heart of this message and when people can have their worldview jarred a little bit, they begin to unearth their own relational needs and begin to realize that, yeah, they're wired for relationships.
Speaker 2:They have these desires for connection and attachment. And so we bring all that to bear for good or for ill when it comes to mentoring. And so the question you had asked about, like, our own relational needs are foundational to mentoring relationships. And so if I could really just encourage you to think about the fact that you actually have needs for relationships, whether it's through a spouse or with friends. It's just going to happen.
Speaker 2:And if those things aren't being met, what can happen is it becomes you're getting your own needs met in a kid, and that's that's not how it's supposed to work. In that area, you're acting as a father or as a mother or as a mentor. You're acting as someone who should be a few steps more mature in your, emotional development than them. And so it's like, if we don't have an awareness of our own needs, it's going to impact for it's gonna impact negatively how we relate to the kiddos that we're mentoring. And so, yeah, I think that's just a little bit of a framework, the idea that we have emotional needs.
Speaker 2:We have physical needs. We have, like, vocational needs. We have spiritual needs, but we just don't often think about the idea that we have relational needs.
Speaker 1:We feel them, but we don't acknowledge them as, like, something real or tangible. It's, like, I don't know. I imagine every extrovert in in the world right now is recognizing their relational needs like they've never had before, and and it took a pandemic to reveal that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's, like, something that they really needed. Whereas all the introverts are, like, this is great.
Speaker 2:Well, I would push back a little bit because even the introverts are going, man, I can't wait. I did a wedding, a very small wedding this weekend, and I accidentally gave a side hug to the bride because she side hugged me. And that was the first person outside of my family that
Speaker 1:I took off. Blame her for that?
Speaker 2:I did. I
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. God.
Speaker 2:Mansplaining. Anyway, yeah. I think even the introverts are knowing that. They're starting to realize that idea. And so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well and I I think it is interesting to think about that if we have relational needs and we jump into a mentoring relationship, that that could possibly the motivation behind wanting to become a mentor could be off. Like because because like what you said, that there may be something in us that's like, I have a relational need to be a mentor. I want to pour into someone, like, and maybe take pride in being a being a mentor or a sage or, like, the I don't know. Like, the Liam Neeson to Batman, whatever his name was.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't know, but in the movie.
Speaker 2:Liam Neeson?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, in the first Batman movie.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. But I was thinking taken.
Speaker 2:I was I've acquired a set of skills.
Speaker 1:But yeah. I mean, I I think if we haven't actually taken an inventory of what our relational needs are, maybe we're just operating from a place of getting them met without knowing what they are, and that could lead us to making poor decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't know
Speaker 1:if you have any thoughts about that.
Speaker 2:So, yes. A couple of them. First off, we get it like you said in the beginning, we'll get into mentoring. For some reason, it could just be altruism, and we're just overflowing with self giving love. Or it could have it's out of our own story.
Speaker 2:Like, man, no one came in and poured into me or my dad left. Therefore, I'm, you know, like, an inner vow. I'm never gonna be like my dad, and so I'm gonna do the opposite of it. And so that's not bad. It's a great motivator to change and to become something like a phoenix transformation, where we're becoming something more than what we were set up for.
Speaker 2:And so that's good, but like you said, without taking stock of that, it can impair our ability to enter into their world. So a quick story would be about Casey and I being foster parents. And so we had 10 kids in 10 months a few years ago, and we get babies and we get older kids, and they were just precious. But they would come to us often in the middle of the night, and so you'd get a call, and holy Moses, it's go time. And we had several girls that were aged from, like, 4 to 5 or 6.
Speaker 2:Again, I don't know what day it is, so I don't remember all of those things. But they each came in, and they're just terrified. But how they responded was differently. One was in tears. The other was kind of laughing hysterically.
Speaker 2:And what they were doing in that moment, like, if I went to them and said, hey, look, my job is to protect you. I'm here to keep you safe. It doesn't matter a hill of beans, they're a kid, and what they need in that moment is security. They need to know shalom, and that is not how can they trust you? They're in this place that they don't know, they don't recognize it, they've just been ripped in most cases from their mama for some reason, and they're heartbroken and their brain is in fight or flight, and for all of your great, I'm gonna be a great mentor and everything else, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:At that moment, what they need is security and and sympathy and empathy and comfort. And so that takes a long time to to develop with them. And so Casey and I would do the work of really trying to provide security, which is, gosh, just terrifying for these kiddos. And so I say that because just a few ideas of relational needs, like, the first one I think about is attention. Like, we want someone to pay attention to us.
Speaker 2:So if we go into or oftentimes we do. If we go into a mentor relationship out of our own need, it's like we want that kid to pay attention to us, to approve of us, to validate us, and that's backwards. We're supposed to come into this with, like, somewhat of a whole heart, hopefully maturing, so that we can actually give something to them, not wisdom, like you said, not advice, not goals, but just presence, just relationship. And so that idea of attention is leaving your world and entering into theirs. And oftentimes, I deal with whether it's rich, poor, as, Will Smith said, black, white, Cuban, or Asian, in his, hit getting jiggy with it.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter, man. They they they they have this long Yeah. I'm like, did your parent leave their world, leave their job, leave their TV show, and enter into yours, and just pay attention to you? Mhmm. Because if that need didn't get met, it's being carried on to adulthood or security piece.
Speaker 2:Like, you're confident that the relationship is gonna be harmonious. And in foster care, that manifest with these mentors, that could be manifest because a lot of times, they've been left, and they're wondering, is this person gonna leave like everyone else has left me? And they're gonna push hard. They're gonna kick against it relationally to push every button to see if you're actually gonna stay, if you're actually going to accept them no matter what they do. And you also find needs like approval.
Speaker 2:Like, you just see me and accept me for who I am and not who I'm supposed to be, and that is hard because the kids are messy. You're a mess whether you would like to admit it or not. And so being able to bring those needs to bear in a way that brings wholeness and security is very hard. It is not easy. Specifically, if you don't have awareness of what I would say is the need behind the deed.
Speaker 2:Like, you don't act stupid for no reason. There's something there's you're trying to gain something. It's giving your you power, that behavior. For these kiddos that you're mentoring or the foster care kids, they're doing something to manipulate the room, and that may sounds negative, but they're doing whatever they can do to bring safety and security. So if it means they're gonna torment you, they're gonna talk trash about you if it's an older kid, they're gonna do whatever they've learned to produce safety and security and to test you.
Speaker 2:And so if you don't have that framework of, like, what is the need behind the deed? What's driving this kiddo? Because your facts, reason, and logic flat on are gonna help them.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But
Speaker 2:that relation that back to the the the metaphor of priest, the ministry of presence of being there, that kind of relational commitment that says, I'm here, man, or young man or young boy or whatever. I'm here, foster daughter, foster son, until something changes, but I will be here. And that's that's hard because it's a people are messy. A friend always says, people are messy, And so it's difficult, and so it's helpful because when we're reminded that, oh, I have needs and they have needs, it helps us see them and their humanity and just not their behavior because the behavior will be a mess at times.
Speaker 1:Wow. That's really helpful. I I love even just thinking about all of this within the heart of God of, like, how he God wants to meet relational needs.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And he doesn't he doesn't operate outside of anything you just said. When Jesus shows up, he doesn't just teach people how to heal blind eyes and, like, raise the dead. Mhmm. Though we may, like, see those things as prescriptive, and we can we can do it, and God's still doing miracles. But there are so many other things that Jesus is doing, and it's all within relationships.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. It's all within seeing people. It's all within presence. Mhmm. And he he's not like, that second nature to Jesus is to discern what the relational needs are within the people that he's serving Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And to meet them and and to to step forward to do that. But that doesn't mean Jesus doesn't have relational needs. Jesus is aware of his relational needs. He's the one that's always going to meet with the father. He's the one that's always eternally been in the trinity Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like, within relationship. And I I mean, he chose to live with 12 dudes, and he has a bunch of people following him. He has all these women financing his ministry. And I think it's it's interesting when we have this conception of Jesus that's outside of relay the relational needs kind of thought. But once you think about it in that way, you're like, wow.
Speaker 1:This is really ministry at its heart is relational.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And just that presence deal, just keep coming back to that. That's
Speaker 2:Well, when you look at this idea of being wired for relationships, you have kind of, like, the neurobiological attachment counseling, which, by the way, if you all haven't checked out Karen Purvis, the connected child or loving kids from hard places, you need to. Woman passed away recently, but she was a bad woman. I mean, there's gonna be, like, mother Teresa, maybe Billy Graham and her, and I'm gonna be, like, cleaning their toenails in Heaven. I mean, that's just the weight of who they were. So you can look at it from the the neurobiological or the neurology of it, but if you look at it from the Christian worldview, you have to start with the Trinity.
Speaker 2:You have to start with the idea that God has eternally been in relationship and eternally been giving and delighting in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And then you look at Jesus, like I I mentioned, attention. Attention is when you leave your world and enter into another's, and that's the whole idea of the Word became flesh and made His dwelling place back to the Old Testament. It's all about presence. So he left his world and entered into our world.
Speaker 2:And then you said Jesus had needs, and people don't like to think about that, specifically if you're fundamentalist. But people don't like to think about that because what what do you mean God, the Son of God, the Son of Man would have needs? But at His baptism, which is this holy moment where you see the trinity in action, He gets baptized by John the Baptist, and He hasn't done a thing. He hasn't done any miracles. He hasn't cast out any devils.
Speaker 2:He hadn't saved anybody. And the father says, this is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. So the pleasure and the delight in his personhood, not in his actions happen. That's that being overdoing. So that's approval.
Speaker 2:Like, the father is approving him, approving of him in front of everyone. And then from that place of identity, Jesus goes out as the Messiah, as the anointed one, to preach good news, and it was relational. And, of course, he brought power and supernatural stuff to bear, but even in his healings, like the lepers, he touched them, and they were unclean. They couldn't be touched. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I tell a story in the video that we did that will come out soon, maybe, but that we did together, Steven. But my grandma, the age of 90, 91, 92, and the old folks, she just needed to be touched. I mean, she sat in the bed for the most part all day with anyone to touch her, and she just her tiny frail hands just holding my face, me holding her, giving her kisses, and holding her hand. Those needs do not go away. And so these some of these kids that you're gonna interact with, they're not going to have appropriate touch.
Speaker 2:They're gonna be touched either in abusive way, sexually or physically, verbally abusive, or even which is just as bad as neglect, the idea of indifference. I don't love you. I don't hate you, but I'm just cold and callous. You do not matter. You're not valid.
Speaker 2:And so all of that is coming to bear when you're interacting with these with these kiddos. And so that kinda gives you a little bit of, like, the Christian worldview and also just starts to dive into the how your brain is wired
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And how we are looking for attachment. We will attach to someone or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, let let's jump into talking about child development, because I I feel like that is when you talk about relational needs, everyone has relational needs. But what does that mean for the kid from a hard place who has had those adverse traumatic experiences that may not be they may not have bullet holes within them, but maybe there's gunshots around their home. Like, they may not have necessarily been abused by their parents, but maybe they've been neglected. And just thinking about if everyone has relational needs, how much more so does that place kids from hard places in a deficit?
Speaker 1:And I don't speak that as an indictment against kids from hard places, but it's
Speaker 2:deed behind the deed. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, I mean, can you can you just talk about when those needs go unmet, how does that affect a child's development and the way they see the world?
Speaker 2:Right. So, the we make sense of the world through stories. And a a lot of our training, Casey and I's training, has come from things like tapestry, foster care, adoption, some different counseling that gave us this framework in our early part of our marriage. But stories are how we make sense of the world. So our first son was adopted is adopted.
Speaker 2:And I another powerhouse lady, Hope's Promise, shout out if you'll ever hear anything about them. They're in Colorado. Incredible women. I mean, these women are forces of nature, and I mean that is the highest compliment I can pay to them. And so we're in a training up in Colorado because our son, was born in Colorado.
Speaker 2:And a dude, an older guy who's had kids and was gonna get into adoption and was kinda pushing back, against the the lady who was training us, and he said, you mean to tell me that it's difficult for a kid that's, you know, born and then adopted immediately, they're gonna have attachment issues. They're gonna have different issues, and she, with, like, a feather, dismantled this. It was incredible. And I was like, oh. It was like one of those memes that people post where people are like, oh, shoot or something.
Speaker 2:Hashtag I'm trendy. But in essence, what she said is when that baby is placed into an adoptive home, there's losses that have occurred already. He or she has lost his biological mother. His biological mother has lost his biological biological child, and oftentimes people come into adoption from loss like Casey and I did with miscarriages. So the relationship starts off almost on the wrong foot with loss.
Speaker 2:And it's this idea or this concept from people that talk about the attachment theory is that the mother in the womb about 3 months, they start to develop an attachment. And, again, an attachment is a deep emotional bond that endures across space and time. The mother is attaching to that baby that is growing within her, and that baby is attaching to his or her mama. The mom is providing security, shelter, food, comfort, those basic physiological needs, and that mom is attaching to this child. And so when that attachment is broken by placing that child in adoptive parents, loss happens.
Speaker 2:And so it's that idea that, man, even in the womb, we want to attach. And so you see that baby coming out and then, you know, you and I were talking earlier about your your newborn and how your favorite part is trying to see his eyes and to attach to him and and to connect with him. And we're everyone is starved for this. I mean, this is why when you walk into a room and someone smiles at you, the part of your brain that's relational is faster than your facts, reason, and logic. So you could see your enemy and they smile at you and your brain is gonna hijack you and go, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:They're glad to be with me. And and then all of a sudden you get back and say, well, this person did this, that, or the other, and I don't like them. But your brain is so wired to attach. It cannot help itself. It is going to attach.
Speaker 2:So when you come at it either from an adoption standpoint or a mentoring standpoint, these kiddos are wired to attach. And so if they come from a hard place where there's been insecure attachments or anxious attachments or abuse or neglect, their their brain is firing not in a holistic way, but rather in a fight or flight. They're basically in their subconscious going, man, is my fear center is operating? Just think about the the Buckingham Palace guards that are standing guard Mhmm. Wondering, is this person gonna leave?
Speaker 2:Are they gonna abuse me? If they're gonna raise their voice, is their hand gonna follow next and follow through with a smack? And all of that comes to bear when you look at these kiddos like they are wired for attachment. And when they're not attached, then they start to learn behaviors to get attached to someone or to something. And there's gonna be a lot of hindrances in those relational needs that are gonna keep them from doing it healthily and same for you.
Speaker 2:Because these kids are gonna trigger things in you that from your past, and it's gonna be hard to go through and actually make those, you know, synapses connect. That that idea of intimacy, that idea of, security is gonna be hindered unless your framework provides you with a lens to view that kiddo to where you're not looking at their behavior. Why are they acting like a fool right now? Well, a, because they're a kid. And then, b, because their brain hasn't fully developed.
Speaker 2:But then, c, if your brain is not is not being cared for and nurtured and attaching in healthy ways, you're never gonna get out of it. This is why, there's a phrase I learned long times ago that there's a lot of boys who can shave nowadays. They're still they don't know who they are. They don't know what's going on in their world, and they're basically they've never grown up emotionally, and their behavior hasn't changed because they've not had these needs met. Their brain is still looking for something or someone to attach to to approve of them to provide security.
Speaker 2:And so if that happens for us that have somewhat normal families, how much more difficult will that be for kiddos that come from hard places? Because they long for someone to leave their world and enter into this. They long for security. And as a mentor, whether you're within 45 minutes a week or an hour a week, that might be the only time that they're safe. That might be the only time they really have a sense of security and peace and wholeness.
Speaker 2:And so they're gonna bring, you know, how many hours in a week are there? A 127? I don't even know. They're gonna bring hours of insecure attachment. In some cases, I'm not saying it's all that bad.
Speaker 2:But in some cases, they're gonna bring a deficit into your relationship. And so it's it's so important to view. They don't give a rip. I mean, I learned this in sales. People don't care how much you know until they know that you care.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. They don't give a rip that you've been to seminary or you have a nice car or whatever. They just wanna know, will someone see me? Will someone know me? Will someone accept me?
Speaker 2:And that is going to only that's only gonna be exacerbated by the fact that they're in a mentoring program because they're the problem. They have an issue. And it for the most part, it ain't their fault because kids are supposed to be in a place where a mommy and daddy is securely loving them and training them up and, you know, correcting them when they get off the rails a bit. And all that's gonna come to bear in that relationship. So that hopefully gives a bit of a framework for how you can interact with them knowing that there's a need behind the deed.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's really good, John. Two thoughts came up as as you were talking. Just think about, like, a baby. A baby has, like, those physiological needs that you you mentioned and will cry to get them met.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And that works very well. I've found out over the last month. Shout out to you, Ben. I love you, man.
Speaker 1:You're awesome. When when a child gets older and needs go unmet, and usually we usually talk about the physiological needs of feeling like you have shelter, you have food, and you have safety. Mhmm. But when it comes to relational needs, I think at least what you experience is, like, the the reason neglect happens is because a child is longing for connection to be around you, and that need has gone unmet for so long that the child's no longer looking for it and is isolating himself because he knows his needs aren't going to be met within, like I I imagine a a boy in our program who's constantly nagging for someone to care about him. And when that need goes unmet for an extended period of time, the kid naturally learns, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Like, my need is wrong or my they don't necessarily think my approach is wrong because they're not thinking in that way of, oh, how can I be better about communicating my needs? Because kids aren't gonna be able to communicate those things. So I wonder if you have thoughts about when when we strive to get them met as a child and they go unmet, is there a an internalizing and something that that keeps kids from communicating their own relational needs?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. A couple things that I think of as you're talking about. The first thing is is that they are communicating it. It just it may it may not make sense to us. They're always communicating it because, like, we will attach to someone or something.
Speaker 2:It's it's just a matter of who or what, phone, Facebook, video games, pornography, drugs, whatever. And so as you're talking about that, about, about your own kiddo, like, they're going to cry. That usually means they've got a diaper change, they're tired, or they're hungry, and that's really it.
Speaker 1:That's what I found out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's that's literally it. But, a really sad story is we've been through all of this adoption stuff. We would hear stories about, you know, kiddos and orphanages in Russia. They eventually learn not to cry.
Speaker 2:So they'll be because they have so many kids there in an orphanage that they stop crying out for their needs. So if it's like they have a they need a diaper change, they just stop and they'll sit in their filth for hours. They don't even cry for food. And that's terrifying. It's a very graphic picture, and no one can really that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Like, you're like they learn that no matter how much they cry, no one's gonna pay attention to them. No one's gonna enter into their world and care for them and touch them and attach to them. Relationally, let alone physiologically. They internalize that a 100%. And that's where you see contempt and you see like this self hatred, and I I didn't there's a great book for those of you who have ever heard anything about shame or or dealt with shame, but shame is such a powerful emotion.
Speaker 2:We will do anything not to feel it. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:it's almost irrational to the point where we will feel it before we think it. And there's a book called The Soul of Shame by Kurt Thompson. Highly recommend that book. It's pretty heady, but if you can get past that stuff, the story is great, and how shame impacts us. So that identities that identity that I am not worth a damn takes in because no one took care of my diaper.
Speaker 2:Why would they take care of my dreams or my hopes or that desire to be touched? I'm not worth anything.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that is like a label over their head that they're gonna carry into all of their life unless something changes. So I wanna go back real quick to the idea of attachment. Attachment is that deep emotional bond that endures across space and time. We are wired to to attach. And so what what we interact with forms an attachment.
Speaker 2:What we interact with forms our attachment. So if those kids in the orphanage, like I said, if they don't interact with any, that forms their attachment. And what we attach to forms our loves, like, what we actually love and care about, and what we love forms our identity. And so we often look at the behavior and what people are attaching to, but those things in our behavior that we're wiring together with. So if it's just like our phone or video games or, you know, students that are good at, academia or or or sports or sex or pornography.
Speaker 2:We attach to those things, and they form our loves, and those loves shape our identity. And so what does that have to do with these kiddos? Like, if if no one is coming in and speaking identity over them meeting their needs, then they inherently start to think there is something wrong with me. There's something off with me, and that's that shame. Shame can be so toxic, so toxic so they move into, like, superhuman, like, oh, I did something good, whether it's in video games or I got a rise out of the teacher.
Speaker 2:I'm like a rebel, and everyone laughed at me or the girls like me, and I can hook up and whatever else or I'm just a prick, and I push people away. Their identity is formed in that, and that's that kind of superhuman side of shame. But then there's always a crash. They come into the subhuman. There's something wrong with me.
Speaker 2:I'm broken. I'm not worthy of life. And that is going to drive everything they do. Everything. Like, you don't act stupid for no reason, both you as a mentor and the mentees.
Speaker 2:There's a reason for it. And so I think it's important, you know, often in Christianity, we focus on the behavior. Specific like sex, we just can't handle sex. What do we do with sex and sexuality and our desires and all this other stuff? So, you know, if you have a person who has a porn problem, it's really just an intimacy problem.
Speaker 2:We're made for intimacy. So we focus on the behavior. They stop that, and we don't look at the need behind the deed. Mhmm. That innate desire for intimacy is good.
Speaker 2:It's like we're wired for it. We're sexual creatures, but we don't know how to deal with it, specifically from a Christian worldview. And that's going to drive at us. So if we get in a relationship with mentoring, we try and fix the behavior, that's gonna work for about 2 seconds. But if we start to see the need behind the deed, oh, what they really want is attachment.
Speaker 2:They wanna connect. They wanna know they're secure and safe. We start to see that need behind the deed, then we don't focus on that negative behavior as much, but we get to the root of it, and that's when change really starts to happen, both for us personally and then for these kiddos that we're mentoring.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That kinda hits at the the pain and the potential of relational needs of of recognizing any negative behavior that we're recognizing. There is a god given relational need that's attached to it that's either going unmet or or was met in a unhealthy way. Right. And I I think that that's that's really powerful just to to recognize that anything that we're seeing that seems off, there's actually something something good underneath it.
Speaker 1:Yes. That's the reason Yes. It's happening. That that changes your mindset as a mentor.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I just for a metaphor sense, because of, again, stories. So back in the garden, they had 2 trees. They had the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And humans had a choice at that moment how they're gonna get their needs met.
Speaker 2:And like we all tend to do, we return to heart vomit, and we choose the shadow. We choose that part of us that if we allow it, it will build hell on earth. And and so it's so hard for us to think of needs as good because all we see is our terrible behavior. We see our lust or our pride or our anger. We see the 7 deadly sins.
Speaker 2:We see our depravity, but we don't see that good need. Like, sleep is good, believe it or not, or breathing is good, or food is good, attachment is good, and needs aren't bad or good. They're just good. They're actually positive rather. They're not bad or good.
Speaker 2:They actually are good. But the problem comes in, like you said, the pain and potential when they're not met. So some of the needs I mentioned, attention, affection, comfort, security, approval, there's potential and then there's pain that happens from it. So if you start with the end in mind, people that get their needs met in the context of a healthy relationship where there's no triangulation or enmeshment, they tend to become, for the most part, healthy people. And healthy people tend to make good choices, and good choices for the most part lead to good outcomes.
Speaker 2:But when we see the painful outcomes, which is always seen on the outside, like, for me as the frat guy that I mentioned that was obnoxious, it's because I just wanted someone to approve of me. And when you see the jack wagon climbing up a bar, window after he'd been kicked out because I was just drunk and stupid, and I wanna do something so outlandish that my friends would be like, oh, he's so fratastic. A, that was, of course, stupid. B, I was intoxicated. But, c, if you can see past all of that crud, you can see here's a young man that really needs approval, and he's willing to go to great lengths to get those needs met.
Speaker 2:That's actually courageous on one sense and quite stupid on the other. But if you can see the need behind the deed, it humanizes a person like me, and they're not such a big jack wagon. And so with the pain and potential, if those needs are met, it tends to lead to right thinking. Well, mommy and daddy pay attention to me. I'm worthy of attention.
Speaker 2:I really am okay. You don't get into that subhuman or superhuman of shame, but you're like, okay. I must be worthy of something because mommy or daddy or this mentor left their world and entered into mine. And then, on the flip side of that, if like going back to the Russian orphanages, my needs aren't met, or when I express my needs, I'm beat, I'm neglected, or on horrible cases where sexual abuse happens, well, they have a need met, and the only thing I'm good for is some sexual satisfaction. You is it that rejection, that criticism, that critique without context or without rather a connection moves us into wrong thinking.
Speaker 2:There's something wrong with me.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And if you live with that mindset, you're gonna act a fool, and it's almost determinism. It's almost that that habit and that thought process. Your brain is neurologically following a path that is going to end in death. It's gonna end in shadow, whether it's just poor life choices or something as dark as suicide or living such in such a way that you're going to die. Because your behavior, whether it's drugs or alcohol or gambling or addiction, the end of that will be death.
Speaker 2:So when those needs are met, you have right thinking, and when those needs are not met, you have really poor thinking, which usually ends up in terrible outcomes. But there's this thing in between, and this is where I wanna talk a little about feelings and the pain and potential. In the Christian world, feelings get a bad rap, and we just we we can't envision anything better with it. We think of that like fact, faith, feeling train, where your feelings are the caboose, and they should be stuffed or neglected, and that works out about as well as a rat sandwich. On the other side, you can elevate them to a point of being godlike, which I get, but one of my heroes in the faith is Eugene Peterson, and he said that feelings make for good they're good liars.
Speaker 2:And someone tweeted that today, and it's the only thing I haven't liked that Eugene Peterson has said, but people take a little comment like that out of context. Mhmm. And then the thing that you put over your feelings is negative. They're bad. And feelings are positive in nature.
Speaker 2:And so when our needs are met, we have an a positive expression or a healthy expression of emotions. So when our needs are being met, we have a healthy sense of who we are, then we can express things like anger in a positive sense. Because anger is not bad, It just becomes toxic if we bury them alive because emotions buried alive never die. They become like zombies or World War z or The Walking Dead, which I've never seen because I'm a pastor, but I did see World War z. And they come raging out.
Speaker 2:But anger is good in the sense that it gives you power, emotional energy to use your voice, to express injustice, and say, no no no no. I'm not being valued here. Stop it. Fear is not negative. It's we're so we're, like, hardwired to keep ourselves safe.
Speaker 2:Like, you don't think when a car comes. You just get out of the way. There's a part of our brain that is actually attached to our spine. So if we see, even the outline of a snake before we think, oh, there's a venomous snake. I better move.
Speaker 2:We move. Our body reacts before we even think. And so
Speaker 1:I do that with cockroaches.
Speaker 2:Oh, well, I don't because I'm a man. So I use shame right there. But, anyway, the idea is, like, if these emotions aren't expressed in a healthy manner, it's usually because our needs haven't been met. We've had wrong thinking in those toxic emotions. We start to express them in an unhealthy way, and that brings shadow and death to those around us.
Speaker 2:And so the idea is when our needs are met, we start to express even those things that we'd normally call negative anger, fear, shame in an unhealthy way. But when our needs are being met, we can express them in a positive way. Hey, mentee or mentor, when you did this, I really felt sad. I'm actually angry that you didn't do that or you didn't show up or you didn't do what you said that you did, and that's healthy. Its anger is okay.
Speaker 2:It's when it gets into that toxic side that it bring becomes destructive, same with shame, same with fear. And so when we express it in a healthy way, it usually leads to our needs getting met even better in a more healthy way. And if we don't get our needs met, then you really have no room for, from a Christian standpoint, the fruit of the spirit. You're never gonna feel safe. You're never gonna feel happy.
Speaker 2:You're not gonna feel joy because you're gonna be so full of the toxic emotions, which are buried alive. They never die. And then out of that place of our feelings, we're, like I said, about shame. We will do anything we can to not feel it. So, of course, you watch Netflix and chill.
Speaker 2:Of course, you drink too much. Of course, you act outlandish because you want that shame and that pain to go away. And but when you act like a fool, your consequences tend to be enough to hopefully, you will learn something different. You'll find a new way. Dallas Willard in Divine Conspiracy, you know, we often think about God as, like, this punishing God that's ready he's out to get you.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But Willard is, like, look. The I the idea is that life's own natural consequences. Like, if I get drunk and go driving, there's gonna be some consequences to that behavior, and that should inform we need to change our behavior. But like I said, if your brain is so hardwired to keep on doing things, unless someone like a mentor comes in and enters into your world, in essence, helps you find and form a new pathway in your brain, It's almost like determinism. Like, you're destined for those unproductive behaviors and unproductive outcomes and negative consequences.
Speaker 1:Wow. Wow. I hope so.
Speaker 2:I have had a lot of coffee, so we'll see if that translates.
Speaker 1:I I feel like you covered feelings and emotions, and their connection to relational needs. Mhmm. And so maybe I'll ask this last question. Yeah. But I also I wanted to ask, I've been thinking about social media Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And how I mean, most people think about coping mechanisms is like, well, you drink or you smoke because of your stress, and that's what a coping mechanism is. And we don't necessarily move that concept into all of life and all of our relational needs. And everyone, not just it's not just drunks. It's kids. It's single moms.
Speaker 1:It's moms in Highland Park. Like, we all have coping mechanisms to try and survive, like what you said, to avoid the void, like, that sense of something's off. Mhmm. And it made me think about social media as this I don't know. It's kinda like a stock portfolio of relationships, and that kinda how you you diversify your stock portfolio is, well, I want to have investments in a lot of different places so that if something tanks, I'll be okay because I have my investments diversified.
Speaker 1:Well, how social media kinda works is, like, well, I have relational needs, but I don't wanna depend upon 1 or a few people to actually meet those needs. I'd rather have a 1,000 friends validate me on a semi regular basis by the things that I show them, like, I curate for them to see about my life. And them give me feedback, and that makes me feel great. And I I just I think about for our kids, particularly I mean, we have some of our our boys. They're they're liking our pictures on Instagram.
Speaker 1:Like, they're already on Instagram, and they're they're 8 years old. Mhmm. And so in many ways, I'm thinking just that that social media and the Internet is becoming this place where, really, it's it's pronouncing that we have unmet needs. Mhmm. But we're we're trying to protect ourselves of of trying to make a 1,000 little connections rather than depend upon a few people, like I mean, for generations I mean, for every generation besides ours, everyone's dependent upon their familial identity for that level of meeting your relational needs as, like, a primary place where those are met.
Speaker 1:Now we're getting to a place where that's that's, like, the exception to the rule that people are are looking for their relational needs to be met outside of the family. And maybe that's just a western, like, trend, but I do think that that's that's an interesting thing that is prevalent within our culture and even more so probably within kids from hard places in the west.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. What's interesting is in, like, the 19 I guess, the boomer generation, so, like, the fifties after World War 2, the nuclear family became, like, a thing. But with people moving to the suburbs or they're moving out of the country and into the city for work or for industry, the extended family got cut. And so you would have grandmas and aunts and cousins all around you that helped shape and form and speak identity over you. And as we got separated, very, very western for sure, that that began to be this place where you're dependent on that nuclear family, but if if dad's working and mom's got 3 kids, she's super, you know, she's super stressed or whatever else.
Speaker 2:And so you didn't have grandma there to to to love and help pay attention. And so you see that in eastern cultures for sure, and I would consider, like, the Hispanic community, Latin American community a lot more eastern than western. And then you throw in, like, divorce and all other stuff. I think that kind of expedites the the kind of the problem of not having that familial identity. And then we're, like, on the greatest experiment that the world has ever seen.
Speaker 2:Like, the the rate of information, like, from the Gutenberg press to the Internet is just only expanding, and our brains are, like, the the testing ground, and no one's really seen a result of it. They're just starting to see some stuff with pornography and how how much that warps you because how much information you could consume from a sexual standpoint. But then you talk about, like, virtual signaling and and posting something to get a rise or to have, you know, identity politics, whether it's left or right. It begins with it starts that whole problem with what you do versus who you are, and then you're a mile wide and inch deep, and you're left not being known by anyone or anything. And it's more about who you do or rather what you do than who you are.
Speaker 2:And I I think it's a massive social experiment that we have no idea how far reaching the consequences are. And I found myself sucked into it, bro. Even, like, the idea of, like, the need behind the deed, I'm, like, I kinda wanna take a picture and post it to social media because, you know, I'm trying to grow my brand or whatever else, but I'm, like, I just want approval. Mhmm. Like, do I have anything to say that's worth a darn that you people listening are, like I would be validated if, like, you said, hey.
Speaker 2:Can John come speak? Yes. I can. I'm really good at it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:And so that's even driving me in this. I'm, like, why don't I take an Instagram photo and snap it and be, like, well, I'm I'm podcasting with my favorite mentor, trainer, curator, Steven freaking Murray, the the velvet glove, the feather glove. Anyway, so, yeah, I it's it's a massive social experiment that who knows where it's how it's gonna play out. But we are literally, like, attaching to our phones and to people that we don't know because we did something cool, or we looked a certain way. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And we love it, and it shapes our identity. So if we interact with the left or the right, or if we interact with athletes or models or people that like Land Cruisers like I do, then that's, like, informs my behavior. I am shaped by that. I want to attach to something. I want identity.
Speaker 2:And, you know, close to 40, it's still driving me. So I I mean, the kids that are 13, 8, and younger, I am like like, our kids are not getting phone. I didn't get a phone until I was 23, and I was on the tail end of it. And it was a flip phone. You know, I had worm or whatever or asteroid on it.
Speaker 2:It was worse than Frogger or whatever I played on the first PC we ever had at school. So, anyway, man, yeah, that's a little bit of rabbit trail, but, that's, like, we have no idea what the consequences of that are gonna be, and we're just starting to see the effects of it even now. Yeah. So
Speaker 1:It's good, man. I I I think it is. It's necessary to to talk about the context in which Right. Kids are growing up in. And even if everything is is healthy, that relational needs, it's so easy to get into a toxic place of how you're getting those met.
Speaker 1:And if you don't have key relationships where someone's investing in your life and you feel that they're getting onto your level, they're, like, seeking to see you, to make you feel safe, to soothe your pain, like, all all of those things that it's it's a it's a minefield Mhmm. Of that that adults are trying to navigate with difficulty, not just kids. So we should probably have a another podcast about mentoring and social media and
Speaker 2:I'm I'm probably not your guy for that, but I just I can kinda sense there's something going on there. I just I'm like, oh my gosh. Because I get so sucked into it as well. But anyway
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. Last question. Every mentor wants good outcomes for the kids they mentor. That would be really weird if they didn't.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Like, I guess if a sadomasochist was, like, a mentor, then that may not be the case. There's probably some out there. Probably. But the one thing that's difficult to control is outcomes.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like, I cannot control what's the decisions that my mentee Right. Is going to make. He is responsible for himself. Kinda like Henry Cloud would say, I'm responsible to him, not for him. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And and so I think it's it's good to acknowledge that we're not responsible for outcomes. And, like, the language that you hear people say all the time is, like, we're tossing seeds, and we toss seeds and wait to see what happens. And I like I like that. I don't know if you'd call that an an analogy. Is that an analogy?
Speaker 1:I guess. An illustration?
Speaker 2:A metaphor. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I like that metaphor, but it also it's too simplistic. It's like, surely, there's a better place for me to throw these seeds. And sure surely, like, there's a time for me to throw them and, like, recognizing that there are a lot of contextual chronological things that need to happen that could be the a better mentor is better at throwing seeds at the right time, placing them in the right places that would cause flourishing. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about how mentors, when they approach relational needs, how do we un how do we tap into the potential of our mentees?
Speaker 1:What where are the best places for us to throw our relational need seeds, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question, Steven. I'd have to think on that one more to give a good answer. The initial thought I I come to mind, I think, is we come with all of these kind of delusions of grandeur. I hate to say it, but, the first thing I would say is all of your expectations are going to go unmet. And you think, like you said, you can't control outcomes.
Speaker 2:So I I think humility is really, really needed, and Jesus is the best example of it. I found that even with my 8 on the Enneagram and Command on the Strength Finders, humility suits me really, really, really, really, really, really well. And in foster care and pastoring and coaching and mentoring, I find that when I come or I start with the end of myself and I come to with a place of humility, like, I'm here to serve and not to be served or to lead, that it goes a heck of a lot better because I cannot tell you how many times I sit down with someone who's, like, hey, tell me about foster care, about about pastoring, or about coaching, or about mentoring. And they've got so many dreams and so many hopes, and they're good, but reality is gonna set in, and it's going to be shattered. And so if you can get that on the front end, which nobody can, just remember, it's not gonna go well.
Speaker 2:There's going to be conflict. That's what makes any story good is it doesn't go well. Something goes wrong. The ring goes to the bad guys. The force awakens the bad side or whatever.
Speaker 2:Or Thanos snaps his finger. Without conflict, life is pretty meaningless and pointless. And so just know on the front end that you're there to serve, and and it's going to not meet your expectations. You're going to be disappointed in yourself and them and the program and the person that's, like, supposed to be coaching you and mentoring, all of it is going to disappoint. That's very cynical.
Speaker 2:But then I would end the positive note on this is back to the priest, the ministry of presence. I have a story of a friend who was mentoring, discipling a guy, and he was on the brink of suicide. He sent him an email, and for all intents and purposes, he was about to end his life. My friend didn't get the email for a bit. This is back before texting was really powerful.
Speaker 2:When he got it, he left his world, went to this guy's apartment, was banging on the door. The guy didn't answer, and he went around to the window in the apartment and had a brick and was about to throw it open, to throw the brick through the window and open it up. And and the person who sent the note said, what are you doing? He says, I'm about to throw the brick to check on you and and just to come be with you. And I think that sums up the idea of presence.
Speaker 2:He didn't have all the answers. He didn't they didn't get out of the shadow overnight. I mean, these kids, it's not gonna take 3 weeks of your gracious presence to see them healed and set free. They didn't get there overnight. They're not gonna get out of it overnight.
Speaker 2:But if you can come up with the idea that presence, presence is more important than doing, being is greater than doing. Being with them and bringing your presence as best you can just to leave your world for a minute, for an hour, and enter into theirs. And sometimes it's gonna be silent, and you're just being present with them. And eventually, that sense of attachment is going to come. But it's not gonna be without disappointment, heartache, shattered dream, shattered expectations for what it could look like, your own stress from life going, oh, gosh.
Speaker 2:I've got all of this junk going on. But if you can see the need behind the deed and remember that presence is more important than performance, it's a it's a hell of a start, I would say.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to today's episode with John Bauer. Next week, we are gonna continue our discussion on relational needs. We're gonna discuss a concept. John trains couples, families, mentors in called the emotional cup. So we're gonna talk about the the stuff that we stuff and what that leads to.
Speaker 1:So be sure to check us out on our website, youcanmentor.com, as well as check our show notes so you can learn more about how you can connect with John Bauer and what he's doing. He well, I wonder if you would inform what I say at this this point. Do you want me to encourage people to your website? Can I what is what's the
Speaker 2:the website is jsbauer.com, and that's part of the business side that we had Casey and I both had a desire to do? And so, really, the idea of the website and what I do specifically is kinda help people unpack a little bit of who they are, who God is, and then what they're to do. And I have this terribly unique gift of, like, helping people face a pain or fear, and then out of that find purpose and identity and meaning, then come with, like, a lot of practical steps just to live. And so it's not just for Christians, but for non Christians. And but that's, like, my MO is, like, I want to live, and I want others to live because life's too short to not really live.
Speaker 2:And I mean, like, a full wholehearted life. So that's kind of my driving sense. But, yes, please go check it out. I don't have an Instagram page, but jsbauer.com backslash j just kidding. That's it.
Speaker 2:Just jsbauer.com.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, yeah. Check out jsbauer.com in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. Subscribe.
Speaker 1:Send this to your mom or someone you know is interested in mentoring. We'd love to hear your feedback. So, yeah. We'll see you next week.