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Every Friday, join us as we dive into the latest in real estate multifamily with David Moghavem, Head of East Coast Acquisitions at Trion Properties. David invites top experts who know the ins, outs, and trends shaping the real estate multifamily market across the nation!
Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just curious about where the next big opportunity might be, Deal Flow Friday brings you the weekly inside scoop on what’s hot, what’s not, and what to watch for in today’s ever-evolving real estate scene.
Reed Goossens (00:18)
Welcome to Investing in the US podcast, a podcast where we talk each and every week about awesome things that we're investing here right in the US. Talking to operators, different people about how we come about and show you all you guys out there, our investors, what we're looking at. And today we're here with David Moghaven. David is the CIO of a vertically integrated company of Trion Properties, 1.5 billion dollars in acquisitions. He leads the firm's investments and acquisition strategies nationwide.
With extensive expertise in sourcing, underwriting, and executing value add multifamily investments across key U.S. markets. And David is a frequent industry speaker and is known for his expertise in multifamily operations, capital markets, and multifamily or market cycle investing. So I'm really pumped and excited to have him on the show today to share his incredible in depth knowledge. But David, mate, we're in this incredible office. Yes. You just moved back. I'm sort of walked in here going, wow, what are we doing here? This is a nice collab. It's the Deal Flow Friday collab.
With Reed Goosens and we hit it off for lunch about a month ago. And we're like, you have a pod? I have a pod. Let's cross collaborate and and do do a collab pod. So I'm glad you're here. And this is actually the first
Pod we're doing in person in the o in the LA office, so you're you're kind of the guinea pig, but we have a nice setup as you could see and hope to hope to do more of these. I know, a hundred percent. It's way better it's way better in person. I think ⁓ it's nice to have the virtual so that you can talk to people and not just be limited geographically with like, I'm only gonna talk to people in LA. That's right. But the in person touches goes miles deep. That's
I completely completely agree. Well, for for for our audience, then we can sort of cross. Tell us a little bit about the background of Trion, David Moghaven. Like what's what's the story? What's the elevator pitch? Yeah, so Trion Properties, we're a multifamily owner and operator. We're vertically integrated. ⁓ we have about a billion and a half AUM, over 6,000 units. We actually just launched our third-party management platform as well. ⁓ so that's another vertical, so not just
Managing our own properties, but managing for other clients, which, as you know, in a market like this, management is key, and all the cracks are starting to show, and we've been on top of it. we own in California, Oregon, Colorado. We have a deal in Dallas, and then we have Florida, Georgia, and Carolinas. ⁓ we have about 1,500 active investors. Last year we sent 2200 K1s.
this tax year. So as you can imagine, it's brain damage. But we've really fostered that investor base through cycles. We started in 2005. Max and Mitch built out a portfolio, sold it right before the downturn. Then when the GFC hit, we started buying non-performing notes and REOs collateralized by multifamily. Made a killing, which today is paying its benefits.
Because we're starting to see some of that. We're actually like on foreclosure with radar. We're starting to see the distress, and we could get into that. But when that market dried up and that strategy dried up, we started just getting into traditional value add multifamily. And I joined in 2015, and that's when we first broke into Oregon. And we were just in in California. We started buying in the Bay Area. We've been owning in the East Bay for the past decade, which
Now we're just starting to see the renaissance of that. ⁓ so we're excited with where we're positioned there. Broke into Oregon, then in twenty twenty, well, before COVID, we were trying to track into color we were trying to break into Colorado. It was tough.
Very tough. We felt like the boat ⁓ kind of sailed, but COVID hit and that gave us a window of opportunity to buy our first deal in Colorado, and it's a big estate we own in now. ⁓ maybe fortunately or unfortunately because it's also one of the worst performing MSAs in the country, but I still like it long term. Then COVID happened and we saw how we were clearly too ⁓
prone to the political risk in our markets because we were only in California, Oregon, and just broke into Colorado. We said we need some red states in our portfolio. So that's when we opened the Miami office. We started buying in Florida, Georgia, Carolinas, Dallas, and now we're diversified ⁓ nationwide for the most part. And we overlap in some markets. Yes. And I think that's how we connected. We saw the deals that we were competing on, the deals that we bought and
And it's great, honestly, it's great to share notes with another operator. ⁓ people think with real estate, whoever's not in real estate, they think it's like super competitive and
But the truth is like if you're trading notes with another operator, it goes you go above and beyond. That's right. That's right. No, no, and we we did compete on property in Dallas ⁓ a little while ago and i we we we now own it, right? And it's going it's going okay. Right. And I think that to your point of trying to break into the Denver market, we've been trying to break into the Dallas market for a long time. Right. And it was only this sort of post pandemic that has been that opportunity, with a lot of pricing reset. ⁓ talk to me about
How like how much of the portfolio is sort of call it West Coast blue states versus now red states? Like how's that changed since you've joined? Yeah, half ⁓ half and half for the most part. or maybe I would say like one-third California, Oregon, one-third Colorado, one-third ⁓ Southeast. Gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. And and what's your buy box today? Like, what are you seeing as opportunistic? You just mentioned like you you know the company has a history in in REOs and buying notes.
What are you seeing today that's like really getting you just? Yeah, we've we've always our our mantra has always just been thinking outside of the box and being creative and trying to come up with some sort of edge or alpha and really being nine miles deep rather than nine miles wide. So that's part of the vertical integration. That's part of the buy box of the strategy we do. So traditionally value add multifamily, but we go much deeper than that, depending on the market. And if you ask us today,
We have very tailored strategies for every market that we're in. ⁓ whether it's the Bay Area, we bought a lot in the East Bay ⁓ ten years ago with when there was the app boom, we bought a lot in the BART, we bought in the East Bay, and because
Deals in the city were trading at two cap, three caps in San Francisco. We're like, we're we can't buy that. And so we would get more yield in the East Bay, and we would get renters that were commuting into the city living in places like San Leandro, Hayward, Fremont, and got six figure incomes, which at the time was very high ⁓ ten years ago. And we're getting those incomes in these workforce pockets at the East Bay because the BART was only a 30 minute commute.
into the city. We're seeing that play come back and we're perfectly positioned for benefiting that play because we still own a good amount of assets in the East Bay, for instance. That's one of like the many plays we have in in our different markets. And like trends a more transport transportation oriented design. Right. Being as a backbone of these folks need to get in there. Yeah. Right. So that's like one angle. ⁓ we might see in places like Colorado where we're zagging in management when others are zigging people
are getting out of management because of the
tough landlord environment that the political environment is passing. And we're actually getting into doing more management because we've mastered it. ⁓ we had to master it for our own portfolio. So we're benefiting and getting management as a foot in the door to find some real distressed cap stack opportunities that also have o operational distress and us being able to come in and turn it around.
talking to lenders, talking to other distress operators, talking to a lot of brokers that are introducing us to ⁓ clients that are looking for management. So these are different angles that even though we're spread de geographically, every market has its own specific strategy.
How much on the property management side you cross the entire portfolio now or just some segments of the portfolio as you look to build that business out? Whole whole portfolio self-managed. Okay. I think one when did that transition happen? Yeah. So we when we broke into a market, we tried many different ways of breaking into a market and learned our lessons each way. And I guess like the the high level of it is if you break into a market.
And you try to self-manage on the first deal, you're gonna have a rude awakening. And you also don't have the necess necessary scale to be ⁓ performing at its best. But then if you third party on the first deal, you get a little bit of benefit from that, but you can't third party when you have scale at this point because no one's gonna care as much as you. And if you have competence and you care, you that's the two.
Two factors for success. You need to have competence and care. And so we have both. Not all third party managers have the care. They have the competence. And not every person who self-manages has the competence, even though they care. So you need both. And we've built both along the ways. Yep. Ha talk to me about how, you know, we we have it in our portfolio as well. Like
the the res we'll call it the reset. I think when in ten years time we'll look back at this time and say that the the famous reset, right? I can't give it another name besides the fact that we have peaked in multifamily in 2022, some crazy prices. You mentioned cap rates in the Bay Area, like they weren't two or three percent, but you know, there's cap rates in Dallas, in Charlotte, in Denver, in Austin, trading at sub you know, sub five caps. Right. For poor. Yeah. Yeah, for core it ma and maybe at the peak in Phoenix, value add was trading.
There because that's true. IP. Everyone was betting on the come, right? And so how have you navigated that in the last bullet? Because we've been in a bit of we've been in I feel like we've hit the bottom, but we've sort of been dragging along the bottom a little bit when you know everyone's still talking about supply and you know it's it's gonna dry up and then it in the next the next year there's another twenty thousand units being built in whatever the city is. So how are you how one, how you did you get through it or going through it, and two, do you think is a good time to be buying right now?
Yeah,
so I'll I'll take a step back and say this. This is the first time in a long time that I'm seeing markets all trading at different yields and all have different type of risk adjustment. And it's an exciting time for that reason because you as an operator can now give your pitch of why you like this market and why you think it's priced accordingly. Things being price like before when rates were at zero during the ZERP era era, everything
Was priced the same whether you were in the Sunbelt or you were in the Midwest, like everything was tight cap rates, and everyone was chasing for yield, and ⁓ tertiary market was chased was trading the same as a core market, and it didn't make sense. Now everything, as you said, with the big reset, everything is now trading differently. So, what does that mean? It means you can now create different strategies for the different markets that you're
Looking into and having conviction in something that might be out of favor, like in Atlanta, ⁓ and seeing how it has a big better yield. And you can look at the supply-demand story of that market. And so we're picking our spots right now because of that. We're picking markets ⁓ that we feel like have great supply-demand fundamentals.
Not every Sunbelt market is burdened with supply forever. There's some that are actually absorbing, like in Atlanta, for instance, but there are some Sunbelt markets that can't be absorbing the same way and still need more time. but then we also like these West Coast supply constrained markets like a Bay Area or even an Oregon ⁓ that that had didn't have the same construction boom that the Sunbelt had. So we're we're looking at the supply-demand dynamics and kind of picking our spots.
Based on that. Do you think interest rates come down this year or continue to expand? Yeah, I don't know. I, you know, this is January 16th. ⁓ Walsh is gonna give his first Fed meeting tomorrow. June 16th, right? sorry. Did they what did I say? January. January, my god, June, June 16th. ⁓ Walsh is gonna give his first Fed meeting tomorrow. And
What's interesting is Trump announced his deal. No one's seen the deal yet. And you saw oil prices drop, but you saw treasuries stay, stay the same. And that was a bit of a head scratcher. You would think bonds would rally too, but they haven't. And why is that? I think the the print CPI, it's still
something that's really affecting treasuries and inflation really like makes you know makes that sticky, makes the treasury sticky. And I think people are holding their breath right now for the Walsh meeting because he's that first meeting, he's about to lay out the land of the next five years of policy. So as we're talking right now on June sixteenth, we might release this after the meeting and someone might be listening to this and saying, What?
Like treasuries aren't like there was a bond rally after he's like or wow treasury spiked. Like we don't we don't I think everyone's holding their breath for this meeting. I think this meeting is gonna shake up the market. ⁓ we'll see when this publishes if I was right or not. Yeah. it will shake up the market. and we'll see if it's for good or for worse. Well, I I I also think that there's probably a little bit more the employment.
hasn't been as strong as we want. Right. I think there's a lot more pain than like if you look at the data, yes, there's good jobs, but they get I think the last twenty four months it's been revised down every single month. Yeah. Right. And you look at the sectors that are employing, it's government and medical medium and maybe some AI. Like it's not it's not widespread. Right. It's more government jobs than it is private sector jobs. So like that's been going on for a period of time now. That hasn't just been ⁓ this has been the last six months. Like it is
Has been for the probably the last two or three years. And so, how when's that shoe gonna drop? Like you and I both.
rent to workforce housing folks. And I know back in after the stimulus check turned off, like rent's just crated overnight overnight. And and to this day, like delinquency is still a problem. You know, putting food on the table is still a is still an issue. Gas prices are still high. It doesn't necessarily mean that we're all feeling hunky dory. You know with one meeting. Yeah. That's gonna come out. Like it's I think there's still some some ongoing issues that, you know, and just y you can list out since twenty twenty twenty twenty.
the things that have happened. 2020, obviously stimulus, interest rates, you know, COVID money, tariffs, now a war. Like it's kind of like we have had we keep getting punched. You know, if that makes sense. And I think the wider economy is you can sort of dress it up as you want, but it does feel like it's not doesn't feel rosy. It doesn't feel great. I totally agree. And you know it doesn't get talked about enough how everyone's talking about cap stack distress and not as many people
People in multifamily have really addressed the operational distress because to this point, there have been cracks, but it hasn't been widespread unemployment or anything. Think, thank God, knock on wood. Like that would really be tough to operate in. But we got to prepare. We got to prepare for that. Because I think what you're seeing now from an operational standpoint is the cracks are just gonna start to widen a bit. And once there's operational distress, you're gonna start seeing
More of the capitulation, more of the capstrack distress turning into sales, more of the lenders saying, okay, we need to move on. The reason there hasn't been so many sales from this cap stack distress is because lenders have more optimism in tomorrow than they do with today.
The operations will get better tomorrow than today. Once we start to see the operational distress, that's when you're gonna start to see, hey, I need to get my hands rid of this and we need to move on. So that light at the end of the tunnel that everyone talks about is what's keeping lenders for holding on, operators holding on, kicking the can, the extend and pretend, all these buzzwords you hear is because of the optimism tomorrow relative to today.
Once that changes, we're gonna see something else. But I but I think that that's the thing I'm getting at, like
How many times have you been in MHC and it's like this is the year, this is the yeah, this year is like we went this year is a fourth scheme of language, fourth fucking year I've heard that like people it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. It's like and I thought personally that like we get to the end of twenty four, that was the bottom, right? Of r of rents, distress in certain markets. And twenty five hit, you know, immigration, ice ice policies definitely have not have have hurt us and you know, it hasn't come out in the data. but y I don't know what changes it. Like either ha like it's kinda like at the point like have the freaking recession move like
Let's let's just have it over at this point. Like what are we waiting for? Band-aid, just rip it up. Yeah, yeah. And I I get on the other side, like what like banks have learnt from OA. Like they've learnt their lessons and they're trying to avoid a run on the banks. And they're trying to have a systematic avoid a systematic collapse. But at some point we're just dragging along the bottom. And I don't see massive flight back to sort of maybe rent growth or whatever that might be in the near future. Yeah. You know, two again.
back to two you end of twenty four I was like we we we made it we got to twenty five and we can double that but then there was sort of then rents created a bit more depending on the the market you're in so it's it's tough and then on the other side when you look at the Treasury the ten year it's it's still in the four fifties like right and I'm not grey in the hair but I know that things that if that that doesn't get closer to four and we have seen it in the five year where it dropped below four and all of a sudden you started to see stuff started to happen again and then jump back up and like fuck we're it's
⁓ and so the longer we're not at
At or around four on the ten year, the the less deal making territory we're at. Four four on the ten year, three and a half on the five year is like the sweet spot right now for buyers and sellers coming together and making shit happen. And we and we've seen glimpses of it. Finger in the air. Like that's that's where it is. We need we need three and a half on the five year, four on the ten year. ⁓ we need some sort of green shoot so that when you have a deal ⁓ under contract, let's say
The rent roll isn't deteriorating. It's it's only getting better. At least, you know, getting neutral trade-outs. Which I don't know if we're gonna necessarily see that with what we're just talking about, but we can at least get the 10 year and the five year, which it's it's shocking to me because you would believe the government has the power to
dictate the markets to where treasuries can be at that level. And I'm sure it's their mandate to do whatever they can to do it, but they haven't. And it's something to be said of where markets are today that despite everything the government's trying to do to get treasuries to where they need to be, to combat inflation
You still have a sticky sticky treasury above where we need it to be. And I think that that you know, again, I'm not we're not both not economists, but like that is a canary in the coal mine that I think investors are still saying, like to your point, like when that quote unquote deal came out the other day, it didn't bounce because people are still worried about we've t we've heard the word transitory transitory inflation. Like this this war and the the the the the Hamoos thing is it's gonna take time to play out. It's not just like tomorrow it opens up. Right. And oil's flowing through and and
And and gas prices are down again. It takes time. And so I think that's could be the market saying, Well, we're pausing here. Let's see what the actual details are. And because even if tomorrow, if if Hum Homo's and the the war was over, there is gonna be a lag effect. Yeah. And and and so I think that lag effect pushes out into twenty fifty seven. It's interesting though, because the equity markets, if you look at the stock market, it's it's already pricing in that it's ⁓ that the war is gonna be over or or is over. So it is a bit of a head scratcher, and I think it comes down to like
Like inflation and ⁓ and maybe the Fed meeting, and maybe if Walsh gives some sort of signaling ⁓ where yes, he pauses tomorrow, but he's signaling some sort of cut or some sort of hawkish outlook, we can see a bond rally. So we need it, we're praying for it. We'll see. What does this mean? Coming back to real estate. What does this mean to value add multifamily in the Sun Belt? You know, I think for me, in
In general, it's buying based on what it is today. And pre-rate hike, everything try-on would look at our north star is untrended yield on cost. Is what do you think the property is gonna
Become not what it is today, but what is it gonna become ⁓ after spending the dollars ⁓ renovating the kitchens, after getting the upside in rents? ⁓ now what we're seeing now, what we're focused on is day one yield net of cost, which is deferred cost, net of gain to lease, net of the deterioration, the expected deterioration of the of the rent roll. So
That is like our North Star today. And if you can be positive leverage, you could be cash flowing, you could be at least five-six percent cash on cash going in, net of the deferred maintenance that you have to spend on a 70s deal, or net of the gain to lease you might have to see on ⁓ newly
Re a a new tradeouts. Yeah, a new trade out deal. So that is what we're seeing and and when rates are five and a half, could be six percent, even at some point without a buy down.
And you want to get to positive leverage up next I like that's not gonna happen in multi. So that's what's tough right now. And and for us, if we just bought a deal in Fayetteville, North Carolina, right? It's a big military town, it's a small town. We own there. And you you you you own there, like and we bought six six six point one percent cap rate. We got a just over five, I think five three.
And positive leverage they won. And it's still hard with retail investors to get them on board because it's you know, they want the new vintage, they want the positive level, they the nine foot ceilings, but they want it in Dallas. It's like, well, you're not gonna get that in Dallas. Yeah, you're not gonna get that in Denver, you're not gonna get that in, you know, Charlotte. And so you have to venture to these, you know, these markets. But but even when you pr produce all of that for an investor, investors are still, at least on the retail side, they're licking their wounds. There's been there's a lot of blood in the street right now. Yeah. And and and deals have been handed back and people have been.
Whacked and it's hard to have that conversation with someone saying, Hey, ⁓ sorry you got sorry you got whacked. But trust me, this time's a good time, right? And and it is a good time, I believe, to be buying it just trying to when their stock portfolio is up 25%, you're like, yeah, it's hard to Yeah, I mean the combination of how the S P and stocks are performing, the sexy IPOs coming out right now, combined with retail investors getting burned, whoever invested in 2021, 22.
Not really understanding it's a cyclical market, not understanding the risk profile of the assets they were investing in. It's tough to get some of these retail investors back into the table. For Trion, we're lucky because we have investors who have invested with us through cycles. And that's important because you need investors in the stable that see that this is a cyclical time where, as you said, at the bottom,
Does that mean you have to buy things speculative? No. But it means you buy things with good going in yield, which is what I was referring to, the day one yield net of deferred, net of gain to lease, that you feel that the deals can stand on their own two feet. Mm-hmm. And we're starting to see that in good markets. Maybe it's not the sexiest markets, but we're seeing that in good tier one MSAs that we're in today. Yep. No, and and I think that goes back to just
Looking at the data, and I know when we pitch our investors, like the twenty twenty two pricing is is a data point. It might be a blip. You know, you're gonna have this sort of trend going up and to the to the right and it'll have it'll have this little bump where in twenty twenty two from valuation, but you can still measure to it, right? You can measure to the data and say, Hey, look, we're picking this thing up at a thirty or forty percent discount to similar vintage assets that's sold in the peak. I have been getting some pushback from my investors, but I don't think it's
I think it's still a defendable angle to come at to say like, do we get back there? Maybe not. Right. But if you're got the positive leverage, you you're you're conservative enough on lease on rent growth for the next couple of years and you sort of put a long enough term on on the on the debt, 'cause I think that's the other big thing, the cap stack to what we've talked about before is the the cap sta stack to stress. I think I don't know about you guys, but we're only being executing Fanny and Freddie agency on a five or seven year to avoid that and to show our investors like look we can we we don't do anything from day one.
It's still gonna cash flow. By the way, that's that's old school real estate OG investing. That's like how real estate has been and quite frankly supposed to be. Right. Real estate, this this three to five year hold, which trion's guilty of doing, we would do three year bridge loans and we would make a lot of money doing it. But is that really what real estate is supposed to be? To me, I feel like real estate's a vehicle where you get incredible tax benefits.
depreciation, you have great appreciation. It's a hedge towards inflation. And to me, that cash flow with those tax advantages, ⁓ and being able to hold and build wealth is really what real estate's all about. Mm-hmm. If you wanna get rich quick, there's many other ways to do it in this world than just do three year flips of real estate. I think
The beauty of real estate is the five to seven to ten year plus hold that you get, the cost segregation, the depreciation, tax benefits. These vehicles are incredible that we don't take enough advantage of if you're only doing a shorter term hold. That's right. No, I completely agree. And and and there's ebbs and flows of all that as well, because you can get too aggressive on the the cost seg in in early years and and then become negative.
negative in your cap and not your cap stack but in your capital account. So ⁓ but coming to sort of the end of the show, like what are you what's what's making you most optimistic in the next six to twelve months right now at Trium? Yeah, honestly, I I hate to bring up the AI buzzword because my last two episodes have been AI, AI. I saw a a commercial the other day where it was just like AI, AI, AI and it's it's starting to get a little nauseating. But that said I'm
I'm the de facto head of AI right now for try on, and everyone in the office will agree. And we're all on Cloud, we're all on we've we've completely transformed our workflows, and we're not only insanely more productive, but we're actually reaching this next phase of data synchronization and synthesis, where we're starting to come up with real investment theses with the data that we have.
Sitting in our computers, in our cloud. Trion's really well positioned for that because if you talk to a lot of groups that are institutional, they don't they haven't given the keys yet to let AI do its work and magic to do it. For for good reason, obviously with privacy. And then if you're a small group, it's tough to break into the institutional space with where capital markets are at.
Trion, we've broken to the institutional space, but we have the means to be nimble, to leverage AI, connect it with all the underratings we've done, the thousands of underratings we've done. We have a whole CRM system that we've been tracking deals for years. We've integrated that, taken the API, built our own MCP, connected it to Claude, have that connecting to our Outlook, connecting to granola meeting notes, and all of it just
meshing together, marrying each other and creating this great not only workflow but investment thesis of like or approach on how we can use AI and data to see things that something in CoStar can't tell you or a a manual phone call won't be as productive enough. So that's what's getting me excited the next six to twelve months is kind of using AI and taking what we have to the next level.
I yeah, I completely agree. And just ⁓ on that, you you also within that workflow that I'm sure you're building out, you're sort of finding inefficiencies that a barrier to entry to create your own software or own process would would require multiple six figures to hire a developer where it's now becoming a lot less Yeah. And the barriers to entry are much lower. And I think that's also what gets overlooked when people talk about the economy and jobs.
Not discrediting what we've already talked about on the operational side, I I see that coming. But I also do see the pie getting bigger. ⁓ the fact that we can now spend a few thousand dollars on creating this custom tool for lead gen, which is what we're doing for third-party management. We're using like a custom lead generation tool that we're building that this would have cost six figures easily. Easily. And now it's replacing six-figure jobs.
but now we're able to source more business, the pie is gonna get bigger and I think that's an exciting time. ⁓ the timing of it no one knows if whether it's gonna be a pro or a con, but the pie is getting bigger for sure. ⁓ I I I completely love it. last question, where can people reach you to continue the conversation? Little bit in your sphere, where do they go? I'm here at PDC Pacific Design Center in LA. Green building. If you wanna come in person.
Come on Deal Flow Friday as well. That's awesome. no, I'm on LinkedIn, ⁓ Deal Flow Friday. We're on every podcast streaming app as well. ⁓ I mean, it's it's there's so many avenues to to come talk to me. And you know, you could even ⁓ come join Reed and I for another lunch meeting in Culver City, because Reed's got some good spots there too. So well mate, look, wanna thank you for jumping on the show, inviting us into his awesome studio.
Just ⁓ you know, in and opening up and being pretty transparent about where you guys are at and and you know, the good and the bad that we've we'll all come through and some of the cool things you you're you're doing in the future. So I'm excited to see you guys continue to grow and and like we all are and just you know, want to be a resource as as as best we can. So thanks for Thanks, Reed. Thanks for driving up Robertson to come up here and ⁓ know the traffic's never easy, but it was great having you on as well and looking forward to finding ways to work together.
Awesome. Well, there you have another cracking episode, Jampack, with some incredible advice. If you do want to check this show out, please give it a five star review on iTunes. If you do like it, share it with a friend or a colleague, 'cause we like to spread the word and we're gonna do it all again next week. So remember, be bold, be brave, and go give life a crack. Amen. Boom. Great. Good stuff.