Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A production by and for veterans to learn how to help one another task a bite out of veteran suicide. We take with veterans about their service, things they would have done different, and what advice they would give their younger self. We also highlight community resources for veterans and provide an opportunity to connect veterans with community projects to help seniors and children.
Hey, welcome to the Veterans
Club, a production for and by
veterans and first responders.
Each week, we gather as a
community to share stories,
laugh and build friendships that
can stand the test time
together, we can help prevent
veteran suicide one cup of
coffee at a time. Welcome to the
Veterans Club. Hey, thank you so
much for tuning in and and
giving us some of your time. You
know, the Veterans Club, we
exist actually for one another.
I was just talking with a friend
the other day when they were
asking me so, so what do you
guys do and, and why do you do
it? I said, Well, you know,
actually, I do it because my
wife doesn't want me in the
house that much. She wants me
out. She says, Get out. You go
do something. You're underfoot
all the time. But what I figure
is it's a blessing. I get to
spend time with my fellow vets
and first responders, and we sit
and we, we swap stories, we we
talk about old times, we we talk
about new ideas. We talk about
the direction that our community
is going and and what we can do
to make a difference in that
community. I want to, I want to
clarify. It's not so much in the
realm of political activism. You
know, none of us are carrying
signs marching down main street
saying, vote for Ike, although
some of us did no what we're
doing is we're we're talking
about, what can we do to help
one another? We've got a
dilemma. There's 18 and a half
million veterans in the United
States of America, and
unfortunately, 22 a day decide
that it's too much to go on. 22
men and women who have donned
the uniform and in our in our
defense, decide that suicide is
the better route. And while
there's a lot of organizations
out there to combat suicide, the
Veterans Club beyond being just
one more of those organizations,
the Veterans Club is a social
gathering where veterans can be
veterans and and talk about the
things that inspire hope, that
inspire ambition, that inspire
making a difference, most
importantly, inspire continuing.
That's kind of the motto and
getting together with veterans
once a week, couple of times a
week, on this podcast, to talk
about their story, to dive deep
into what it is they did, why
they chose to do it, how it
changed them as a person. These
are all reflective based
conversations for your benefit.
You get to hear these stories
from the hearts and the minds of
heroes of Americans who decided
I'm going to put my life on hold
for the benefit of my nation.
It's, it's maybe a little over
dramatic, but you know, less
than 2% of our nation serves we
got 330 million Americans. We've
got, or I guess, right now, less
than about 2 million who are
active duty, and again, going
back to 18 and a half million
who have served that's a small
percentage of the population who
is responsible for our
collective defense. I think
spending a little time getting
to know those individuals is
very valuable for the long term
health of a nation. And with me
in studio today, I've got a new
friend, someone that I met at
one of our coffee meetings and
just really started to admire
what this man has done for
country, what he's doing now for
the community. Ron, thank you so
much for taking time to come in
studio and talk with us today.
Nice to be here. Ed. Let's let's
first start with who is Ron,
what? What branch of service Did
you serve in? Why did you choose
that service? What did you do in
the military?
I was in the Air Force. I went
through ROTC at Southern
Illinois University in kermanda,
Illinois. Why I was going to be
a veterinary. The Vietnam War
came along and I changed tracks.
I was studying Zoology at the
time, so I switched over to
zoology major, chemistry minor.
And when I saw that the nation
needed us, I decided I was going
to go take part in in the war.
And. What year was that? It was
1963 it was where Vietnam was
boiling and in ROTC, or decided
to wear the uniform. And I had a
Lieutenant General tell me one
time that if, if you're in
uniform when there's a war, you
go so that's kind of the
background why I ended up in the
air force and subsequently
stayed in for 22 years. It
wasn't my initial plan, but I
ended up staying in and retired
as a lieutenant colonel.
And what did you do in the Air
Force? I
was a pilot and flew a number of
different airplanes, but
synonymous with the idea of
being in the Air Force and and
doing something for my country,
I wanted to go fly for the
airlines, and so I wanted to get
a lot of flying time as soon as
I could, and I had other
options, but flying time, Air
Force pilot training was pretty
interesting in that you get to
go Mach one by yourself, and you
get to go out and roam around
and blow off a lot of gas, and
the experiences kind of filled a
square that said, Yeah, I would
like to do that, but I would
rather get a lot of flying time
to go, ultimately, to the
airlines.
And what plane did you fly? What
platform did you fly?
Initially, on a pilot trainer.
Flew the EC 121, the radar
picket plane. And got a lot a
lot of flying time in in 18
months, I got almost 2000 hours.
And then I was stationed in Otis
Air Force Base, Massachusetts. I
got orders to go to Vietnam and
fly a Canadian airplane, a skull
aircraft designed to go into
short strips in Vietnam. And
that was a fascinating airplane
to fly, and where went and why
it was really interesting stuff.
I think the experiences within
that year were fascinating, and
then I went reassigned out of
Vietnam. I wanted to go to
something interesting, and I got
an assignment to a u2 the spy
airplane. But he is kind of a
crazy situation. I was more
interested in while I've done
this and I have enough time to
go to the airlines, I want to
get out and go to the airlines.
So I raised hell, called my US
Senator at the time, ever
Dirksen, and explained to him
that my my woes, and he
basically said, Well, it isn't
like World War Two anymore. You
don't have to, you know, fly so
many missions, and then you're
done. So you're going to have to
be reassigned in about that
time. This is a week after the
getting my initial reassignment
out of Vietnam. They must have
heard that I was raising hell,
and didn't want a u2 which was a
wonderful assignment. It was
really, really good.
That was kind of the cream of
the crop at the time
when, yeah, it was, it was a
good, good way to go. And so I
got an assignment to a B 52
which was not the cream of the
crop kind of assignment. And I
had heard that being in sac the
Strategic Air Command, they were
uptight and not willing to,
there wasn't much flexibility in
the people who worked for SAC,
but I went to Sac screaming, and
ultimately it was the best thing
that ever happened To me. I just
can't and why is that?
I always was kind of uptight
myself, in that I really enjoy
structure and timing, and then
let's do this right. And I had
never seen, let's seen it. Even
attempted to do it right until
he got to Sac and they
circumcise you. They do. There
are other people who really have
the same mentality that you do
that that this is a very
important thing. We're deeply
involved with nuclear weapons
and. Building them and bringing
them and and planning on using
them. And that was an
inspiration to me. They're flat
on top of it, about that type of
thing. So flying airplanes with
these lethal weapons on on
board, by the way, you never fly
in SAC and A, B, 52 or any other
aircraft with armed weapons you
fly with, with nuclear weapons
on board. I used to fly into
Florida from Puerto Rico, one of
our sac bases, and you flew with
a. You the idea that it this,
this is very important, because
it's on board. It would pollute
a lot of areas with if anything
ever happened, and I would fly
into Florida and sit alert for a
week and then come back the with
the idea of Vietnam, and then in
addition, you're on alert in
another facility just miles from
your home, and while your
family's been raised, and it was
a critical portion of my Life
that having a family was equally
as important, and I ended up
doing this. And the assignment
to Sac put me in an airplane
that is very complicated and but
flies like a bird. It's really a
wonderful aircraft,
and it's been in service a long
time. It's
been in in service for it was
designed initially in a napkin
and in Seattle with five guys,
and it it ends up as a
deterrence, a and for the
individual, you learn it, you
hammer people who don't learn
well, I became the chief pilot
of Strategic Air Command wing
and my commander of that sac air
wing was a guy named light. Jim
light. He ultimately became a
three star. I had a unique
experience that he once said to
me, they were going to fly
together a few times. I said,
Oh, that'd be great. He then was
a a bullfrog. Funnel. And I was
a major at that time. I thought,
well, lay it on him. I want him
to be good at this. So we flew
about six times to check him out
in the airplane, and he was an
ex fighter pilot and used
yanking and banking an airplane.
And the B 52 is nice and big and
smooth and and the control
surface here is light as a
feather. It just is a remarkable
airplane. You can sit behind a
tanker and nudge it a little bit
with one hand and the other to
stay in the position after you
trim it, trim it, trim it, trim
it. And it just wants to fly
like a bird. It takes on gas.
You hear the gas coming in at
5000 pounds a minute. At times,
we took on gas and 150,000
pounds of gas, and then a load
of bombs, besides, during the
Vietnam period, at any rate,
then, after the SAC experience,
was at Ellsworth Air Force Base,
as far as chief the chief pilot
And Ramey Air Force Base, Castle
Air Force Base. Wright
Patterson, Air Force base with
different and then I left the
flying end of it at about 14
years went to the joint
strategic target planning staff
in Omaha, where the nuclear war
is planned and our function is
interesting. I thought was the
timing of the application of
nuclear weapons in a nuclear
exchange. If you just threw it
all out there and tried to do
the max amount of damage, you
wouldn't you'd have problems
with one bomb exploding while
the other bomb is coming in and
through the debris, bricks, and
you name it, that it would
destroy most any weapon, and
they would be floating in the
air and coming down. And so our
job was to be. Create the space
in which you could put another
bomb in there. And they both
strategic bombers,
intercontinental ballistic
missiles, all of this. And I
found it extremely interesting.
But it boiled down to after I
was there for about two years, I
was there for four years, I was
asked to go on a on a committee,
small committee of four of us to
address how sac would approach
the use the cruise missile. And
I ended up in that business from
about 11 years to 22 years.
Ultimately, I was headed the
planning of the missiles routes
during the period in the 1980s
where the competition between
the Boeing Company and General
Dynamics and who's going to win
this gigantic uh contract.
So half of your career was
really spent on the logistics of
cruise missile warfare. Yes, it
was. Wow. Now, were you a pilot
before you went into the
military? No,
I had. The only thing the ROTC
program gave me is a license. I
soloed after whatever it was, 12
hours, something like that. And
little airplane. It was fun, and
I knew I liked it. And one of
these things that your your life
is in your hands. And so I
enjoyed it's going into
aviation, and then in the 22
years thereafter. So
now, after the military, I'm
going to kind of jump around a
little bit here. Did you ever
fly for an airlines? I did,
yeah. Which airlines I
retired out of Munich, Germany.
And my wife and I took a long
trip around Europe about a half
a year, and then I started
flying out of Berlin for a small
airline. They had a Lear, a
French built 40 passenger
airplane and a smaller twin
engine turbo prop, and we flew
all over, over Europe. That was
a good experience, but an
alarming thing happened. Yeah, I
had been with them for about a
year and a half, and one day, we
took off out of Berlin, which
the corridors in Europe in out
of Berlin, towards the west,
towards were very precise. There
the variation you could that you
had to stay within. Could lose
your life and with a load of
passengers, if you so. I one
time, I went into Dusseldorf and
we did normal things, of you do
this, and the other pilot does
that, and I was in the left
side. I was charged the
airplane, and I told the co
pilot to set in a heading that
would intercept the glide slope
to fly an ILS Instrument Landing
System. And he did, and I
intercepted this, and as I
turned like to the left, I
happened to see off to the right
and we were but I don't know it
alarms me to even talk about it,
I would say a city block below
the top of a giant building.
Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah.
Little off course,
yeah. Little Of course. And he
has set a inbound heading that
was 20 degrees off, which drove
me over towards that because I
intercepted it and then went
over. And as I turned left,
there was and it alarmed me. I
realized, whenever the
ingredients were there, I'm in
charge. I was the air commander,
so I'm in charge of what he did,
which is kind of a strange
thing, even flying with your own
crew, and when they're in be fit
to do everything that is on you,
on you, on you. It's that you
didn't handle things right. I.
That event and another one that
had happened in Vietnam was
disconcerting. We were flying
over North Vietnam, and
beautiful, Dave, you know,
somehow you kind of associate
combat and all this, that it
would be a events that are dark
and and, but a beautiful day,
and I'm looking out and I see
something that's very strange.
This is a little like a black
thread coming off the and I
thought to myself, What the
hell? And I remember leaning
forward and looking at and it
hit me, that's a SAM missile.
And it was really crazy how long
I looked at that, then I
realized, Oh, that. And he's,
he's coming for us, so as the
cell leader. And so there's two
other planes with us. And then
there was two airplanes on each
of us that were were designed to
protect the bomber, and they fly
off, and they wait for anything
to give an uplink that says
you're there, and as soon as you
hear that, you'll see them going
down, and they then fire a
strike missile at the site. So
these guys pump the the missile
off, then run like hell,
yeah. So okay, this is
interesting, because now you you
carried probably the two most
precious types of cargo. You
flew airplanes with people, and
you flew airplanes with nuclear
weapons. I have a fascination
with nuclear weapons. In fact, I
think I've even shared with you
going through school. I don't
know why nuclear weapons and for
that matter, nuclear warfare
fascinated me. Never wanted to
experience it. Never wanted the
weapons to be used. But the the
technology, the the the
evolution of warfare, the just
the way the thinking has to
change. It just I don't tickle
my fancy. So I have a lot of
respect for SAC, for everybody
who was involved in and
continues to be involved in our
deterrent, our nuclear
deterrent. I do believe that mad
mutually assured destruction
kept the world from going
nuclear. But I want to dive into
a specific question, because you
were in charge of a plane with
hundreds of 1000s of moving
parts built by the lowest Yeah,
the lowest bidder with
extraordinarily sensitive cargo.
What's the difference between
piloting an aircraft with
weapons of mass destruction
versus piloting an aircraft with
100 souls? Yeah,
good question. You hope to make
it no different than the every
everyday thing you do, because
the everything, everything day,
every day thing you try to do it
right, regardless of the size of
the airplane. Digging a new hole
in the earth is not something
you want to make happen. So it's
foremost in your your mind all
the time, the idea that we would
fly into Florida, and then they
would arm the weapons. They took
them down out of the bomb bay,
and we would carry as many as
12, sometimes one, one giant
weapon and airplane felt much
the same. You'd put an amount of
fuel that you have going 1000s
of miles here to there, and then
minus the weapons. And in those
days, it was a B for bomber
bomb, and B 41 and a B 41 was a
1.3 megaton weapon. And we
carried, and this is all
unclassified by the way, we
carried the biggest bomb that
the United States ever, ever
carried. And it completely
filled, just about as wide as
this. And it completely filled
from one end to the other of the
to
like 12 in 12 feet in diameter,
or at least. Yeah, yeah.
And completely filled from one
end to the other. About that
much on either end, where that
big guy with with great big fins
on it, and that was designed to
hit a country and downtown, we
would say, if we go, we're going
to go downtown, right? And but
the question, did you do it any
different than it pretty much, I
can't say I did, because you're
just trying to focus on what
you're doing and keep it right.
Keep it right. Don't ever stomp
on it. Just would say, and I
thoroughly enjoyed that trust I
would sometimes be given that
that great big airplane to to
take off and and do a in flight
maintenance. They would be
checking and doing things in all
different aspects of the
airplane, and another guy and I
would take off, and we did, you
know, like any other clowns
said, Hey, look at the weather
here and there, you know, in the
weather, and you'd fly it up to
about 25,000 feet, and then make
off, as if it's a traffic
pattern at 25,000 feet. So you
put the gear down, you put the
flaps down, and you would fly
base, and then cross when, and
then just, just like you're
going to win the land. So you
exercise everything, putting the
gear down, bringing it up, the
spoilers up up to the top, which
is giant, and this thing, it's
like three rooms here of each
one of them, and there's four
money or an airplane. Oh, well,
everything works. And you rock
it back and forth and make sure
that
you're doing this testing at
25,000 feet, 25,000 feet.
But I asked, that's the first
time I've ever been asked that
about did you did you feel
different doing it for that
reason, it was pretty much what
I wanted to do every day. But
you're well aware that they
could contaminate and kill lots
and lots of people, if you ever
went in, right? And that
happened, that has happened in
SAC,
you know what? I'm gonna I'm
purposely going to avoid the
question of the idea of dropping
a bomb, because that, as a host,
I think that's a cheap question.
Everybody asks that question. I
want to go a little bit deeper.
I want to, I want to dive into
the psychology of the process of
being a part of a military force
that is the deterrent. Can you
talk about a experience that you
had, one of those times that
just kind of stands out in your
military service, that I'm going
to remember this for the rest of
my life,
you know, it's again, that's
very interesting question. And
it didn't come up in in my
psyche for a long, long time
after, after the Vietnam War.
But it was kind of an
understanding of something,
ultimately, that I didn't really
cook in my head just after,
let's win this war. Let's win
this war. And they're saying,
now we're going to play around
with this. We're going to play
around with this. And but what
would happen is, for instance,
one time we were at 35,000 feet,
got our gas over the
Philippines. Had flown for about
11 hours to get over North
Vietnam. And it's again, a
beautiful day, and I look out
there and the TTG, time to go
meter is marching down, marching
down, marching down. So I'm able
to look out there at about one
o'clock, and I see a town, and
it's not like any town you'd see
in the United States. It has
little roads, dusty little
things, with little, tiny,
little houses, as is the case in
Vietnam. And I realized about
that, Oh, my God, that's right,
but that didn't really hit me
until the last few years, and
I'm 53 what happened and what I
realized as the war went on.
Initially, there was a lot of
secondary explosions after you
dropped your bombs. Things are
cooking off under to a huge
degree. It's a story in itself
as to why and how that changed.
But let me stick with this. What
happened. I realized that the
North came down, tried to take
over the South. Those guys have
to do everything. You got to
eat. They got to sleep. They got
they're they're normal
individuals, determined, just
like we are. And they get think
it had to get everything you
could imagine. So they're
embedded in those towns, and
that one, and that one, and that
one was, and as soon as we would
hit it with whatever small or
large group or a big airplane,
they'd come back, and they'd be
back in doing it. And But
nonetheless, we dropped about
600 bombs
on that town, on that little
town, on that little town,
if there's anything that gets
your attention is we killed
everybody there, and that was
just one time I did this. I flew
these sorties 162 times, wow.
And so that didn't bother me. I
was like, we're getting our job
done. But then the reality
somehow, I don't know why this
only happened now I'm starting
to realize, but we, you didn't
want to want us to win the war.
You we, we had the military
industrial complex to support
all the finances and all the
money to go to to people who are
just committed to keeping the
war going, and so that now is is
just bothered me to the extent
that the this suicide thing is
It isn't that bad for me, but
believe me, I often think of it,
and I wanted to mention at this
point, are there people and why?
Because so it certainly killed
many, many, many 1000s of
people. And one thing that
happened to me recently is a
guy, no under other
circumstances, with QBs, pilot
organization. He said, you know
we used to do on the BDB, bomb
damages, BDA, you know what? You
know we used to do with that?
No, were you involved with that?
They said, I was all over doing
looking at what was accomplished
in the bombing. And we used to
shoot them. They forced all days
later, weeks later, trying to
hold on to their life. And we
used to shoot them so it has
added
up. It was just talking with
some friends this morning at
coffee. We were talking about in
the Bible, you know, the 10
Commandments, we always say that
thou shalt not kill, but
actually, in the original
verbiage, it's Thou shalt not
murder. And we had a discussion
about, you know, here we are as
veterans. Now, I didn't serve in
wartime, so I, you know, I never
had to face the challenge of
pulling the trigger to end a
life. I feel I could. Uncle Sam
hired me. I while I was in the
Army Band, I was trained as a
soldier, I don't think I would
have a problem doing what my
commanders asked, because I have
the historical foundation. I
guess an army exists for last
result or last resort of
diplomacy, when all else fails,
when the leadership of two
different conflicting nations
cannot come to an agreement,
then the military goes in and
pounds one another until the
other side says, uncle, until
they give up And until, well,
Vietnam, I guess even during
Korea, we still let our our
military do what military was
supposed to do. But when Vietnam
came around, all of a sudden, it
wasn't about hounding the enemy
into submission. It became
something more. And I think of
all of the emotional damage that
that was done, and maybe not
all, a large portion of the
emotional damage done to our
veterans, it was with the
knowledge that some of this
hesitancy was for financial
gain. Yes, was for the, as you
put it, the military industrial
complex, you know. And I think
the. Reason why I don't ask
about, could you push the
button, drop the bomb? Because,
of course, you could. You've
been trained. You fly the
airplane, you carry the weapons,
you know what you've got, you
know, a 500 pound bomb versus a
one megaton bomb. It doesn't
matter. It's a mission on a
piece of paper, and your
superiors have ordered you to do
that. And I think if the
soldiers, who are soldiers,
airmen, marine, navy, who are
looking at their mission and
thinking in terms of how many
lives I just ended versus how
much peace opportunity have I
just afforded, I think that's
the difference between those who
contemplate ending their life
versus those who understand
their role in nation building
and and I look at, oh gosh, even
from the smallest soldier With
the pistol on the battlefield,
the solo individual that's
standing guard at a gate forced
to make a decision because some
kid is running toward them with
no idea whether they've got a
suicide vest on or not. It's
just as difficult to pull that
trigger as it would be to push a
button and drop 100 bombs out of
your bomb bay doors. Looking at
the emotional growth, the
emotional changes,
transformation that you went
through during your military
service. How did that impact?
How did that adjust? Refocus
your life in the civilian world,
yeah, during all that time where
you're off on alert, when you're
playing in the local area, when
you're flying across America and
all different corners, and 1000s
of hours of doing that, needless
to say, that's the time your
your kids are growing up. And
there's some ramifications, and
that my wife and I talk about
often, she did the job, a great
job, of holding down the fort
and but there's some, some, some
very serious consequences of it,
which you'd guess there would
be, you can't just pick up and
go away. The people who end up
doing that in the civilian world
are they're not taught. They're
not thinking that they're doing
the best for their families, and
we didn't either. We're very
aware. We got so that we're very
tired flying every other day out
of Guam over the Pacific, over
Philippines and then over
Vietnam, and drop your bombs and
go back on. And often it goes
1618, 20 hours. And every other
day you fly well, you'd say,
well, that day and the whole
crew would basically sleep the
whole next day. So back to your
question. Well, what did what
does that mean? How does it
impact what's going on with
families? With your head it,
it's never away from here. It
sticks with you that more so
that than anything else, as was
the implication in my family, I
have a son that is sideways
period about all things in life,
his meets his mother and his
father and you know, and he's 52
I'm a 60 year old and a 58 year
old kids, and so I wish it was
something that You just did, and
you did the best you could, but
you but as you point out, the
military industrial complex was
pushing the agenda that says,
why don't we just continue to do
this? The the bombs that we
dropped initially, I had
experiences in Vietnam for a
little over three and a half
years, and the bombs that we
were dropping initially caused
many, many secondary explosions
commented to especially at
night. It's incredible, and
especially if, if we could fall
away left, because the pilot
then is looking at at what's
going on under him, and usually
that's a few seconds later from
time the bombs are leave the
airport until they hit, hit the
ground, is about 20 seconds from
35,000 and there was time
periods where it was, was just
talking about that by. Com, or
that, that Sam missile that was
coming at us, those kind of
things, it drops up to you that.
Well, here you are, over here,
doing this. But there are, there
are one guy that I know of, and
I've mentioned this before, in
our club, the Veterans Club,
that this guy said, trying to
think of his name, Wagner, Fred
Wagner. Fred Wagner showed up,
didn't show up one night for a
briefing, and ends up that he
left. He said, No, I'm not going
to do this anymore. I kind of
had that idea that that must be
what Fred stone? Because here we
are. You know, 20 to 25 year old
guys with good health, and he
used to be in good shape, and
Fred, I find out, left and
wouldn't do that anymore. So the
implications on he's my hero.
Years later, what you know you
wanted to win, but they didn't
want you to win. They wanted you
to support the nation. In that
respect, we're dropping crap all
over Vietnam, but I have an
opportunity now. I go there
periodically and help them pick
up bomb parts.
I would imagine that the idea
of, well, let me come at this
from a different angle, because,
you know, there's a lot of
stories out of World War Two,
specifically the Battle of Iwo
Jima, where you we have good
amounts of data from the Marines
who were landing on the beach
and from the Japanese who were
defending their shores, and the
reunions, after the fact, many
years down the road, started to
include both the American and
the Japanese and and there's one
interview in my memory of,
sorry, my stroke, if you're
listening to the show and you
remember the names of the
individuals in this story I'm
about to tell. Please write me.
You know the Veterans club.org
info at the Veterans club.org
and I'll submit the the
correction. But the story goes
like this, the Japanese warrior
who was defending his his island
and the American soldier who was
trying to kill him. 20 years
later, got together for a
reunion in America, Chicago, I
believe, was where they were at,
and a reporter sat down with
them and said, Now you guys were
mortal enemies when you landed
on the beach, he asked a marine
you intended on killing every
Japanese soldier that was there,
right? And he said, Yes, that
was that was my job, and you the
the Japanese soldier were
defending your land and expected
to kill every Marine that
landed, correct? He said, Yes,
that is correct. Then how is it
20 years later, you can be here
together in friendship. He says,
because it was just a job, yep,
amazing. That's like delivered
mail. I have an interesting as I
said, before I go to Vietnam and
help symbology, you know, it's
we're trying to do something.
They do all the work, and they
have these equipment to do this.
So I was in Hanoi with this
group as part of that, and I
knew that there was going to be
North Vietnamese pilots, and I
wonder how they would react. I
have all the respect in the
world for them. B 52 was not
effective in knocking them down,
but they tried to stay away from
the after the end of our plane.
So how we would work? As we had
a SAM that was coming across,
that normally stayed way, way
off anything more than about
eight miles. But nonetheless,
the gunner that says, I gotta I
got bogeys out here at 20 miles.
I said, go at them. Really, it
was interesting. However, during
this process, they said they
introduced everybody, and I told
him, then I flew the B 52 and
listen through an interpreter,
one of the pilots, one of the
Ming pilots, he gave this kind
of long discussion about
something, and I wondered what
it was. And he pointed out that
they hated more than anything
else in the Vietnam War, was the
B 52 because it was very
effective at take a three mile
wide strip and about four miles
long,
decimated, didn't kill
everything in that cell,
everything. And
I really, was really pleased the
beginning of my tours in Vietnam
dropped. And bombs to look down
and watch those secondary
explosions happening. But
something then happened, and you
say, well, what could happen
with that? There was a family of
spies off the coast of Vietnam,
a guy and his and his book
called family of spies have that
he and his daughter were on
board, as well as collaborator
that was the Deputy Mayor of of
Saigon, that were coordinating
the information about our where
we're going. Uh, ultimately, we
learned that probably it was
better that we were called off
of that target and went to
another secondary or tertiary
targets, because what they were
doing is sending all of the
information back through him,
and people just got they
probably didn't even know How to
read English, and it was sent to
Hanoi. Going to do, and it was
about half the war.
Wow. Now, during during the
service, let's go back to the
time when you're on alert,
especially, let's, let's talk
about the sack hours, high
stress job, the you know, the
idea of the alert you didn't
know whether it was an exercise
or whether it was the real deal.
The alarm goes, you run to your
plane, and you fly and scramble,
and you get off the ground as
quickly as possible before you
take off in your downtime. Can
you talk a little bit about the
relationship with the other
pilots, with the other crew, and
how important that was in your
day to day operation? Yeah,
yeah. Again, a good question.
You'd think that there would be
a lot of introspection and
understanding of what we're
doing and why and how important
it is and and even the years
before the Vietnam War, being an
alert you, you don't really feel
the it starts off as a big thing
in Your Life. It starts off as,
Oh, my God, I'm part of this
machine. Oh, man. And then in
time, it's like the guy that
works at Goodyear and putting
tires on, you know, there was
some of that. And the people who
that you, that you knew at that
time, became very, very
important, and especially my my
guy was our radar navigator on
airplane. He and I talked about
these kind of things in great
detail, and who and why, and if
we ever had to go unload what we
have sitting outside in the bomb
bay. It would be, I don't know,
what life would be like
thereafter, to be part of the
machine that went for, went up
and won that war we talked about
that. They claim that with half
a dozen of these bombs, yet the
radiation is going to kill
everybody anyhow, unless they're
underground. And of course,
they're not. They're trying to
live their lives, and they're
going to die at 22 rather than
80. That I remember talking
about that, I wonder if that's
true. I wonder if all of that
means that the earth is
unlivable, and it certainly is,
for that reason. I was very,
very close to my radar navigator
and my radar navigators, each
one, because they were the bomb
AVers, and you ultimately had a
little, very small, little
instrument that the needle would
come up like this and shake like
that, and then it would go to
the direction that you needed to
turn to in order to go directly
at the bomb, at the target, at
the target, and that had about
20 seconds, there'd be a kind of
noise as a bomb bay open, and it
was the system automatically
calculated where on the release,
and they would there was no
nothing that that marched down,
that you heard you, you were
looking at it. It would go 10,
8642, and then there'd be
flashing on a number of
different instruments. Minutes
upstairs and downstairs. Pilot,
co pilot. Upstairs, electronic
war, offs, warfare, Officer and
gunner, back here and
downstairs. Greater navigator
and and we're in the he was the
second man down as far as
responsibility for the light,
and you had, you just followed
that needle, and they were
playing the bomb based open you
drop your bombs, or the signal
that said to the blue ground
site that was evaluated, waiting
to where the bomb would have
hit. And when you get home, they
have all the information to
this. Then they would give you
this piece of paper somehow. And
it was very nervous time sure
every single time whether it was
real or you, you as the as the
pilot and the radar navigator
would be the two guys go in and
hear the crap that you get
thrown at you from from the Wing
Commander or the Vice Wing
Commander. Do
you have any of those
relationships with the personnel
that you flew with to this day?
Oh, yeah, hell. How important
are those relationships now?
Yeah, Major. Because it's a very
interesting and poignant and sad
time in your life, and at times
you can't talk about it. And I
understand, therefore, the
connection with what I'm up to
on as much of why I'm interested
in this is the suicide thing. I
don't think there's anybody that
doesn't have unusual, strange,
you know, things that go on in
life. Without saying, this is
something I wish I could get rid
of, and you can't. Well, yes,
I've been in touch with my
gunner that, a black gunner
that, and another one that lives
in Chicago, and went down in the
neighborhoods to find him one
time, he goes back to doing what
you know. And
I often think that each one of
the my my crew members, I had
many different crews. They all,
we all had a special time
together. It was more quiet
understanding of what our role
was in
this and, you know, and that's
the purpose of the Veterans
Club. I'm asked all the time,
what is the Veterans Club? How
does it work? And it's really
difficult, near impossible, to
explain to somebody who hasn't
served, but the story that we
share with somebody who has a
shared experience, even if it
has nothing to do with flying a
bomber carrying megaton bombs
that would kill hundreds of
1000s, There's still an
understanding between two
veterans swapping stories,
versus trying to tell a story to
somebody who hasn't served the
Veterans Club. Is that
opportunity where the veterans
can come together and we can
swap stories in light hearted. I
try to keep it light hearted. We
always try to keep it you know,
I love humor. Humor is a very
powerful tool for the emotional
psyche, but it's not all funds
and chuckle. And we've, we've
done some things in our life
that sometimes we need those
quiet, sad, contemplative
reflections. And so, you know,
we have those opportunities, and
I find as we age, as we get
older, as our lives blossom, as
our our family grows and moves,
we have less and less time for
our veteran friends, for those
comrades that we served with,
and as a result of our general
psyche, getting out of meeting
new veterans is a little bit
more difficult. So that's why
the Veterans Club was kind of
the idea, though, let's create a
low stress environment where
free cup of coffee, bunch of
veterans, first responders, get
together, and we can just kind
of swap stories. How important
in the civilian world has the
connections with veterans you
didn't serve with play in your
life.
The very first thing for the
Veterans Club, the very first.
First time I went there, it's so
refreshing somehow to have
somebody that is relatable, the
guys that kept our airplanes
going, though you might think
that that's a distant kind of
thing, and that the crew members
are and somehow it's not mission
critical? Yeah, absolutely. And
great guys that are so proud of
the connection they had with
with your world. And I'm blown
away with with how long tense,
and I'm so proud of them. You
know, the Think of who's on our
committee, our leadership
committee, and there's three or
four of us that are because
there is an intensity with with
having to do a job. And don't
get me wrong, 100% I want to
kill them all. Still do thought
we should have won. They feel
the same way, and that,
strangely, is a strong
connection that Think of how
intense we were trying to get
this done. How are we going to
get this done? I'd like to be
back home by my son's second
birthday and my daughter's sixth
birthday and my other daughter's
eighth birthday. That years and
years of
just, you know? And these are
stories that non veterans can't
understand, and we have proof to
show that World War Two, when we
had developed the atomic bomb.
By that time, we had air
superiority over Japan. We had
free reign in the skies over
Japan, and our bombing raids,
which they were using,
incendiary bombing raids were
destroying more of Tokyo, yes,
than any of the damage that was
done by the two nuclear bombs
dropped in Hiroshima and
Nagasaki. But the fact that we
used those bombs pounded our
enemy into submission, to the
point where in a week, they
cried Uncle, where we could have
gone for another year at least
and killed millions of people
with our bombing techniques,
where these two bombs, and
certainly a quarter million
people losing their lives in the
span of a blink of an eye, is
horrible, is horrific, But it's
impossible, I think, for a
civilian to understand that it's
actually a life saving action.
Yeah, and being able to get in a
room with other veterans and and
share these stories, I think, is
a very uplifting moment. What
advice would you give to a
veteran listening to your voice
right now, thinking, you know,
I'm just, I'm on my own. I'm
sitting here alone, and I'm
feeling kind of down, yeah,
good connection there, yeah,
after having experiences like
this, everybody's doing
something everywhere. You know
what I mean. They are like
yourself, they get strung out,
so to speak, and that they don't
see life as something that is a
positive in whatever their
demons are. They they opt to to
change that voice in their head,
and it's very easily done and
quickly done, and I've felt the
same kind of thing. And I wonder
if there's anybody that hasn't
lived life that wouldn't at some
time think, do we want to
continue to do this is like Non
Stop Harassment rather than fun
and not fun, huh? I mean fun,
and that adjusts your head to
the reality of the world and
that it isn't what you would
have hoped. And how to do that,
I see you're trying to how do we
talk to them? How do we connect
to them? Believe me, when they
hear, hear the word suicide, I
think they all pay close
attention and how to have that
word, you know, to them every
day. Somehow, I think is really,
really important how to do this,
and when we really are into
something. 22 guys a day. I just
can't and they're nice guys and
things about what they have had
to do with their lives. And it
might be simple, you know, I
wish I would have done something
better with my children. I wish
I would have been there. When my
mother died, you know, when that
claims of things are, who they
are, he's one of them. Has those
things sitting out there, and
how to handle them is something
that a large percentage every
day, as you say, 22 and how to
create, how we can talk to them,
how, how is that word suicide
and something that is
encouraging says it's, it's not
a way to go. Life is a good
thing.
You know, in my message to the
listener here, we're not
suggesting, I'm not suggesting
that you're contemplating
suicide. We all, at some point
in our life, like Ron says, we
all have that moment so like, oh
my goodness, can I continue
doing the Veterans Club isn't
about the person who's going to
commit suicide. And that sounds
a little odd. Let me explain
here for just a moment, we got
18 and a half million veterans,
and 22 of them a day give up
hope and quit. There are people
around them. Ziglar talked about
the power of 255 we know 255
people that we could tap into
for he used it from a business
relationship. I use that power
255 as a life saving
contemplation. There's 255,
people you know that you could
call and go have a cup of coffee
with when life has gotten you
down to the point where you
might be thinking negative
thoughts. The Veterans Club and
clubs like it provide an
opportunity where once a week, a
couple of times a week, of maybe
a month, monthly meeting, if
that's what your region can
afford. You get to sit down in a
room and have your spirits
lightened, the load of life
lightened to the point where we
can make it through the next
period of time, where we can
extend that emotional well being
to the point where we get to
more help just sitting down for
a cup of coffee, and I like a
slice of pie. I always, you
know, I like to add that slice
of pie or just that extra
assurance that I'm going to be
okay afterwards. But sitting
down with that friend, that
person who's got that that
shared experience is oh so
critical. And Ron, let me just
say, the friendship that we've
developed over the six months.
Now that we've gotten to know
one another, is super important
to me. I really appreciate
having you as part of the group.
I appreciate you taking time to
talk with the Veterans Club. Do
you have any final thoughts that
you would like to share with the
listener before we wrap up?
Well, your last couple of
minutes are super important in
that I really do think every day
that we have our meeting, and
it's always interesting and fun
and enlightening, a new aspect.
But regardless of what a veteran
did, they have to be strong out
because of what they've done and
and, of course, the largest
percentage handle it do what
they need to. But for those that
are out there that things are
tough and then tougher, and then
impossible, and there's no way
out kind of of lives that they
they need for us, it's our job
to connect somehow with them.
Are they? The guys that are are
really connected with computers,
and there's ways to talk to
them, and they hear the word
suicide, and they hear what
context it's in. And is it a
positive thing that says, Of
course not. You know, you just
have to handle Bob, that kind of
thing. That, to me, is the final
message. I really want to be
able to connect with them
somehow. Thank
you so much, Ron. All right,
looking for fast, reliable and
friendly computer repair, look
no further. For over 20 years,
f1 for help has been Kootenai
County's trusted solution for
all things tech, whether you're
a business owner, a home user or
somewhere in between, no job is
too big or too small, from virus
removal to complete system
overhauls, they've got you
covered, proud sponsors of our
veterans and first responders.
F1 for help offers a 10%
discount to those who have
served call, 208-687-0183, or
visit www dot f1 for help.net,
today to get the support you
need from a team that truly
cares. F1 for help where
expertise meets community
spirit. Thank you for tuning in
to the Veterans Club podcast.
Please click the subscribe
button to receive an alert when
our next episode publishes, and
please share this episode with a
friend. Ed. Never know when a
fellow veteran might need a
friendly pick me up until next
time. Stay veteran strong. You.