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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Mary: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:16] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, inspire and empower those [00:00:25] dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Bilton, and today I'm chatting to Sue Ackroyd. Sue is the CEO and executive principal at the William Henry Smith Foundation.
[00:00:34] With a career spanning over 37 years in residential specialist education, Sue has dedicated herself to improving the lives of children and young adults facing social, emotional, and mental health challenges. She began her journey in 1987 working in residential care, progressing [00:00:50] through various leadership roles, including deputy, principal and principal before assuming her current position.
[00:00:56] Sue is a strong advocate for trauma informed practices, ensuring that. All decisions are made with the wellbeing of children at the forefront. She believes in the power of education to open minds and build resilience, providing a safe and nurturing environment where children and young adults feel valued and supported.
[00:01:12] Sue's also passionate about promoting mental health and wellbeing [00:01:15] through physical activity. She dedicates a significant portion of her week to training in power lifting, Olympic lifting and kickboxing, and has even participated in the National Coal race. Carrying 20 kg over a mile of challenging terrain.
[00:01:29] Married with two grown up sons. She recently became a grandmother, and Sue is a strong believer in achieving work life balance and continuous professional growth, embracing the mantra that there are no limits to [00:01:40] success.
[00:01:44] Thank you for joining me. Today, I would first like to ask you, can you just map out your journey from how you started to how you've now become the CEO of William Henry Smith Foundation? Hi. Um, I started
[00:01:59] Sue: in residential care actually at the school, um, where, when it was called Little [00:02:05] School on the Hill, I suppose, by lots of people in the community, and started as say, 1987, and I started as a residential childcare.
[00:02:14] And I came almost straight from college. Really did a, did a couple of a levels, really interested in childcare, uh, but didn't really know where I wanted to be. And this job came up in, in a school that I, I was aware of, [00:02:30] um, some like 30, 35 minutes from my home. And I was in residential childcare for a number of years, became.
[00:02:38] Head of care and then moved to unusual positions like, well, I think the unusual like director of Student achievement and I started to learn about education as well as my having a residential care background. [00:02:55] And I found an absolute love for the work, the love for learning, the love of all things, teaching and learning.
[00:03:01] 'cause because it's not just the classroom, is it? It's about teaching about life and in those early days in the classroom. We focused on, I think it was more babysitting. You know, we were looking after the kids from nine till till half past three [00:03:20] with, for me, not enough currency for the kids, not enough currency to take them to the next stage of their lives.
[00:03:26] So my biggest job was trying to formalize the curriculum, trying to formalize the importance of giving these wonderful kids some currency to go with them into their next stages of life. Um, I became. Deputy and abridged education and care. And I remember once the, [00:03:45] uh, the chair of trust said, there's no way, so you can do all that in your job description.
[00:03:50] Um, and I did, and I think, I think a lot of the success was building from the foundation of residential care. So knowing what care was from an adult perspective to, to some really, really, really, um, really distressed. Really vulnerable young people who had, had [00:04:10] really bad experiences, um, up to coming to hi, coming to William Henry Smith School.
[00:04:15] So yeah, did that for a few years. I say became deputy principal and then became principal. Um, did that for about seven years. And our first year we were, I was so pleased. We worked really, really hard and we got our first outstanding, um, offset judgment for the whole school. Um. And I'm pleased to say [00:04:35] we are now 20 on the track.
[00:04:37] Outstanding judgements for residential care, so that's really good. So CEO was a new challenge for me. We've now got the little school on the hill, became a school and sixth form. We have a college down the road in Ellen and we have a children's home in Rarick. So it all, I think it completes. For, for the now where we're at.
[00:04:59] But I've got [00:05:00] lots and lots of ideas for the future too.
[00:05:01] Mary: Amazing. And if that sounds like a really amazing journey, and it sounds like, as you say, you started from that, um, position of really knowing who your, um, students were and you had an insight then. Into what they needed, which sometimes it goes the other way round, doesn't it?
[00:05:17] I think
[00:05:18] Sue: absolutely. Our job is all about kids. Every decision has to be made with the kids' interests [00:05:25] and outcomes at the heart of the kids. There's, there's, there's no other way. And that's how I've always been. And I hope that the foundation will always be. As I move, move on, um, over the next few years when I retire.
[00:05:37] By the way,
[00:05:39] Mary: I suspect that's gonna be, uh, a long way down the line 'cause I don't think you're gonna give it up easily. Are you? Probably not. Out of all of that, what was the proudest moment? Was it the Ofsted rating or was it [00:05:50] seeing individual students? What was something that was just a real standout that you thought, yeah, that's brilliant.
[00:05:55] Sue: You know, there's lots of, there's lots of focus on off, isn't there? About, you know, is it right, is it challenging? Does it make, does it make outcomes, uh, less impactful by the stress that it incurs on, on the staff. And course it's stressful, but I've always sort of used it as a bit of a. A bit of a [00:06:15] foundation to sort of look and see where we can achieve and look and see what we, we need to move forward on rather than worrying about.
[00:06:22] And, and, and the other thing is, I know what our kids need and our staff do. So I will stand on this table and tell Ted and tell other people that we know our kids need. So you have to trust in those decisions. So in terms of proudest moment. Obviously the officer judgments [00:06:40] 20 on a bounce is, is, is so pleasing, but the outcomes for kids.
[00:06:45] A lot of our kids know some of our kids are ready for university. Nobody would've ever thought that some of our kids are contributing to their economic, uh, wellbeing, to community, community wellbeing. They are supporting their own families. They have got jobs, they have, uh, job security. They're [00:07:05] contributing, uh, to society.
[00:07:07] They're just remarkable. So all those are fantastic. Um, fantastic achievement. But every time I come down that drive, every time I look and I come down and I go, oh my God, what have we got here? What can we share beneath, uh, beyond our drive? Because that's the important thing as well. This is not just about our kids and our foundation.
[00:07:29] [00:07:30] This is about all children, and if we can use our experience and our knowledge to share that with people beyond our drive, then that's what we will do because it's our duty and our responsibility, and I really mean that. We have the expertise, we have the specialism. We don't know everything. Absolutely not.
[00:07:46] We are learners. We are continuing to learn. I learn something new every day, but we have, we have that [00:07:55] experience that we can give other people and also help them, show them, or, you know, steer them in ways where we went wrong and where they could maybe do better. So I think that's really important as well.
[00:08:06] So the work that we do in the locality with all children is really important because the other thing is. Not all kids are lucky enough to be in schools like this because there are other really good schools up down the country. And I know [00:08:20] that I see them regularly. They come and visit us. We pinch ideas, we share ideas.
[00:08:24] We've got a college in at the moment looking to move from, requires improvement as was to good. And I said, come on, come on in. Take what you want. And if you don't see it today, come back and ask and you can have it. No need to recreate the the wheel.
[00:08:40] Mary: It's good that you share. So a lot of people I've worked with have really benefited from other, [00:08:45] um, peers of their sharing good practice.
[00:08:47] And I think sometimes it's, um, a little bit closed, isn't it? And people don't always want to share what they're doing. Well, um, they sit as a competition, but actually you're right. It's that, you know, putting the kids first and making sure that staff can really work with each other for the best outcomes for pupils.
[00:09:01] Yeah,
[00:09:02] Sue: because we are non maintained. Um, we're not independent, we're not maintained, so we are, I always feel I have to say that because sometimes we get [00:09:10] class with, with being, um, independent. Ours is not-for-profit. We're a charity, uh, with the Smith Foundation charity and everything that we bring in. So if we make a surplus, that's coming back to the kids.
[00:09:23] That's coming back to this kids. That's coming back to supporting staff and developing their CPD of learning to understand greater kids' needs. Learning about the brain, learning about vulnerability, learning about [00:09:35] ACEs, and being able to apply that successfully in all our practice.
[00:09:39] Mary: And so what was the, the biggest challenge that you faced on the journey?
[00:09:42] Um, what was it for you personally as an individual? Was it work life balance or was it, you know, other issues?
[00:09:48] Sue: Um, well there, there were other issues actually, because I had a residential childcare background and I didn't have a teacher degree. Teaching degree. So what I did was I did my degree and my [00:10:00] master's degree while still being in residential care and climbing up that ladder.
[00:10:05] Had two young boys. My, my dining room table wasn't a dining room table for. For five years whilst I did that study. So I didn't do that before I came. So, but I actually think being able to apply it, although it was hard work, um, but being able to apply it, not going to university per [00:10:25] se, but working a full-time job and being a mom and running a home was, was vitally important in terms of me joining all those dots together.
[00:10:33] There was nothing in isolation. I was doing, I was doing what I was learning, applying it to practice. And the other thing is, um, I suppose it's worth sharing that some people didn't, um, found that the fact that I had didn't have a teaching degree, that, that who [00:10:50] was I to, uh, comment on teaching and learning?
[00:10:53] Not many, but a tiny amount. You don't have to have a teaching degree to know how to be a good leader.
[00:10:59] Mary: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
[00:11:01] Sue: Being an authentic leader, understanding the importance of empathy, understanding about learning, understanding about self. I've done a lot of that growing. Yeah, understanding myself as a, as a human [00:11:15] being, sometimes opening myself up and being a little bit self-critical, but then always remembering to zip myself back up at the end of the day.
[00:11:23] 'cause it's not, it's not about prodding and poking, it's just looking and seeing, isn't it? And seeing whether you can improve that bit or that bit, or maybe that's good enough, but it is about looking at yourself and being reflective. Um, so yeah, I had that challenge and I had some difficult times and lots of tears at times, but I'm [00:11:40] here now.
[00:11:41] Are you folk? Are you folk that, you know, didn't believe I'm here now.
[00:11:45] Mary: But I think coming from that, um, non-traditional route into education gives you a better insight sometimes, doesn't it? Because you are an example to the students. Your example, an example to the staff. When you're saying lifelong learning means lifelong learning and I'm gonna do my degree.
[00:12:00] Even though I've got two kids and running a house and I've got, you know, uh, to get my [00:12:05] masters done and I don't have a dining room table, and you know, it's sitting down and making that space, isn't it that physical space where you can just sit and focus and that gives you an insight into how other people work and it gives them an insight into your, um, commitment to, to improving, which is fantastic.
[00:12:21] Sue: Yeah. I mean, and when we talked about wellbeing, I, I, I look at things totally different now. Because I under, I understand [00:12:30] myself. Oh, I understand myself. Um, I think that's quite difficult for some, for some people. Um, but I've worked at it and it's, it's, it's, it's tears at times, you know, being feeling that you're not a hundred percent perfect.
[00:12:44] It's difficult, but I remember in the early days of being head and staying here until eight o'clock at night. And getting up in the morning and being back at seven o'clock in the [00:12:55] morning. Two kids. Yeah, two kids at home and thinking that was a really good example. And I recall people, oh, I saw your light on last night at eight o'clock.
[00:13:04] Were you in? Yeah, I was. Yeah, but that's a really bad example. And now I'm absolutely certain that nobody should be doing that. Now if I leave, I'm leaving to go to the gym. If I leave, I'm going to go on a walk. I'm going to visit my mom who has dementia, and I'm, I'm [00:13:20] caring for, you know, that's the importance of wellbeing and that makes me a better leader.
[00:13:25] That makes me better at doing what I really want to do. It makes me full rather than half full all the time. Because I put myself, I don't mean I put myself first. I put my health and wellbeing high up priorities, high up priorities, and I do that for everybody. [00:13:45] I hope everybody else feels that in the foundation.
[00:13:47] Mary: Yeah, it's that authentic leadership, isn't it? It's that I'm, I'm living what I'm preaching and you cannot. Staff if you are modeling, um, an inauthentic sort of approach to wellbeing because they pick up on it, as you say. Um, I've worked with people where they've been in, in work at seven and not left till seven, and I couldn't do that.
[00:14:05] You know, for me I wasn't able to do that. But it's great that you have that [00:14:10] self-reflection, um, and really decided that you needed to model things in a different way. And so what brought you to that point? What made you think, right, I can't keep doing this.
[00:14:19] Sue: The job's tough, isn't it? The job is tough. SEN.
[00:14:24] Is tough. You're dealing with, dealing with, You're working with kids with significant trauma and we need to be on our top [00:14:35] game. Um, wellness is, is so, so vitally important to our work. It's a, it's, it's the golden thread and it's what keeps us on top form so that we've got that little bit of. That little bit of space to give to our kids and to our supporting staff.
[00:14:54] We haven't got our, you know, there's that bit about putting your own oxygen mask on first, and I absolutely [00:15:00] believe that that's the, that's the only way it can be. So I was very conscious, um, of it. I was. Two, that was seven years ago was the first time I walked through a gym, and part of that was about thinking, I need to do something.
[00:15:16] I need to do something different. I was pre-diabetic and I didn't really know what that meant at that point. But I knew I had [00:15:25] to do something about it. And I walked through the gym with my, with my husband about seven years ago, and I am, I train now five or six times a week. My husband hasn't been back, by the way.
[00:15:35] And so, yeah, I understand the importance of fitness. I understand the importance of strength training as a woman, um, and how it's, well, it's important for men and women in, in terms of strong bones, strong [00:15:50] bones, steps, strong minds, and that strength. That physical strength gives me the emotional strength to do this really, really difficult job.
[00:16:00] Mary: Yeah, that's amazing. And it's great that you've got this very clear routine and plan that works for you. And I think so many people in the sense sector particularly, we work with a lot of people that don't really know where to start and you know, so in your experience, how, what [00:16:15] are the challenges that are particular to send and um, what do you recommend that people do?
[00:16:21] To maintain that wellness in themselves.
[00:16:24] Sue: The difficulties in send are that, well, you know, there's not many aspects that are predictable. The only predictable thing is the unpredictability. I think. But I mean, I, I suppose that's what some of us like about the work is that, is that things, things come flying in left [00:16:40] field and it's exciting and exhilarating and as long as you have the, have the mind and the soul and the physical sense to, to, to manage it, you can do, we've been here before, not exactly the, quite the same, but we've applied similar techniques and strategies and I do that through my, well, I try and coach that through people, um, that I work with as well.
[00:17:01] Um, I think it's really important as a leader as well to coach, to be [00:17:05] coached and to coach is really important. I've had a life coach for about four and a half years now. I have a personal trainer and I have a, a boxing coach as well 'cause I kickbox. And they don't just give you the physical elements.
[00:17:20] They give you the emotional wellbeing elements that you can also apply to your professional work.
[00:17:27] Mary: That sort of discipline and the ability to stay [00:17:30] in the moment and not worry about things in the future in the past, that sort of mindfulness when you're training.
[00:17:34] Sue: Yeah, absolutely. That positive mindset beyond that lifting of 155 kilos, Sue is your brain that's gonna tell you whether you can or you can't.
[00:17:44] And that's the same in your work, isn't it? You know, our experiences and the strategies that we've used before, generally speaking, generally [00:17:55] speaking, help us in difficult situations that arise moving forward. But it's our, it's our brain that tells us, ah, this is difficult or. I'm gonna fail in this. So same mindset for my physical activity, as in my work ability is, you know, a positive mindset.
[00:18:13] We can get through this. Yes, we can. The only thing that's gonna let you downstairs is your brain telling you different. So let's sharpen [00:18:20] the brain, sharpen the ax, and let's crack.
[00:18:22] Mary: So tell me a little bit about the coaching. You said that you've had, um, coaching. Is that as the CEO or was that before?
[00:18:28] Sue: No, so we ha within the foundation, um, people can approach us if they feel that they need clinical supervision or if they, if they, if they feel that the benefit from coaching.
[00:18:39] I didn't go the down the clinical supervision route 'cause I wasn't quite sure about it. Um, [00:18:45] although I was willing to try it, but, but. Anyhow. Um, I was, um, somebody, somebody managed to connect me with a life coach who had a background in, uh, sport. He was an Olympic diver, so there's that sort of connection.
[00:19:00] Um, we still have that connection some four, four years later, and I absolutely benefit from it. I squi in my seats sometimes when he asks questions or puts things [00:19:10] to me, but. I'm a big reflector and I'll go away and have a think about it and I will come back with some, some, some little changes to
[00:19:18] Mary: the
[00:19:18] Sue: way, to the, to the way that we are.
[00:19:20] So we, we offer that within the foundation, all the senior leaders, all the middle leaders have, uh, clinical supervision, um, irrespective. But there are also other members within the foundation. We have 227 staff, [00:19:35] um, and high percentage have, have some sort of clinical supervision coaching. Group supervision or time with therapists.
[00:19:43] 'cause we have a big therapy team and their job is not just to provide therapy for our children and young, young adults. It's also provide that space for our adults who are working with some very difficult situations and their own, uh, journeys that they bring and their [00:20:00] own experiences that they bring.
[00:20:01] 'cause that sometimes is the case, isn't it? In, in, in, you know, people who come into our work. Um, I dunno. Sometimes they, uh, you know, I, I, you used to sit in, sit in interviews years ago, don't get it as much now, where they used to say, I want to make a difference. You know, I want to make a difference. I didn't have a particularly good childhood myself and I want to make a difference.
[00:20:24] [00:20:25] Um. And, and with that, that's the positive bit, but it also needs some help and support and guidance and, and steering, I think from, from somebody that's slightly stepping back from it.
[00:20:36] Mary: That's so interesting. It's so fantastic that they can access that type of therapy or counseling or, um, group work or, you know, um, mentorship.
[00:20:45] And it seems that you've got a lot of things on offer and everybody can just sort of choose what's right for them, which is amazing.
[00:20:49] Sue: Yeah. [00:20:50] So we talk about quality of life. So our kids, our quality of life periods is, is featured on the timetable. And it's as important as, don't tell us this, but as maths and English, not necessarily as important as learning to read.
[00:21:05] 'cause I think learning to read opens doors, isn't it, in so many things. But it's our curriculum, our formal curriculum. Um, is, is [00:21:15] aligned with our quality of life focus. So our kids identify areas that they want to improve on or they want to develop a skill, or maybe they want more friends. 'cause a lot of our kids come saying, we want more friends, miss, you know, we, you know, we can make friends.
[00:21:32] They don't stay around long. What, what, what, what am I doing? So you know, what can I do? And so, or they might want to learn to cook an omelets or they [00:21:40] might want to learn to, I don't know, tie the shoelaces or they might want to do some extra maths so they can get A-G-C-S-E really good grade. Yeah. Um, so they decide what they do on a termly basis.
[00:21:52] Activities are provided, learning opportunities every day. To focus on that target area that the kids, the kids, um, have identified. And we do the same for our staff. [00:22:05] So on Friday afternoons, at half past one hour, all our kids have gone and we plan that into the number of hours that we were required to teach.
[00:22:13] Um, and we use weekends and evenings work to add to those hours. Because that's important part of education. Uh, increasing learning opportunities and opportunities to thrive. Thrive are so important. You know, [00:22:30] memories, some of our kids don't always get chance to create memories, so we use weekends and evenings and holidays to create those, and we add those into our hours.
[00:22:38] Whether that's right or not, we know it's the right thing to do. Um, and so the kids go home at half past one, and our staff get involved in quality of life activities and I'm the last one off the corridor and I clean my leadership team out of their offices and say, go and play. And so they [00:22:55] can get involved in, we have a personal trainer that comes in, um.
[00:22:59] At least once a week and he'll do, uh, HIIT classes. Uh, we'll have, um, a, we have a boxing coach. We have a group that, that's called Knit and Natter. So they're learning to knit and they're nattering. We have, um, a group that, um, does reading. We have, they choose a book and they'll [00:23:20] read. We have a group that has a pamper, does pamper pampering.
[00:23:25] Um, painting nails, soaking feet. Um, we have a gardening group and the staff might do, um, prepare baskets around school or sometimes they take them home. We have yoga. Um, we have all sorts of activities, but it's about, this job is tough. We come together on a [00:23:45] Friday down tools. Everybody's off computers. We try to avoid any training on that Friday at if we possibly can.
[00:23:54] Everybody's down tools across the foundation, so 200 no staff come together to relax. To have a laugh, to have some fun to moan if they want about the week, but to go into the weekend to enjoy [00:24:10] their time with their family and their friends, and to come back on Monday ready to go.
[00:24:15] Mary: And within that quality of life framework that you were just describing so beautifully, um, do you find that people really embrace that and say, right, this actually is quality of lifetime for me, or do you find people say.
[00:24:27] If I could just get my marking done, if I could just do a bit more planning. And do you have to sort of steer people away from the work and really get them to that [00:24:35] life balance that we talk about? Yes. Yes. It has
[00:24:38] Sue: been difficult. Um, some people have absolutely bought into it and some people have done exactly as you've said, oh, if only I can get, just get this done.
[00:24:49] I'll just write this report. Or I just need to prepare for progress meetings or haven't written the minutes up from this. But we are definitely better. We are [00:25:00] definitely in a better place. The biggest thing is leadership cleaving. This leadership corridor or whatever you call it, admin corridor of all the leaders, leaders getting into, into groups.
[00:25:11] I do hit, I do boxing. I've got somebody that does golf because they're interested. Somebody plays darts with the, with the group downstairs. Everybody's out and it's us. That role model, because we know we have got a lot of work on. [00:25:25] But what it might mean is I might have to, I might choose to work Sunday at two o'clock and I don't expect anybody else to, but I might choose to do that because it's so important to set that role model for, for our staff.
[00:25:38] So yeah, it's difficult, but it's getting a lot better, a lot, lot better.
[00:25:42] Mary: It is that bigger picture of saying, look, it's okay to relax. It's okay to look after yourself. And you talked about fitting your oxygen mask [00:25:50] first, and what you're asking people obviously do to do in that quality of life framework is put yourself first.
[00:25:55] And I think it's an uncomfortable position for some people, isn't it? It can be a real challenge for them to go, okay, this is my time. I am gonna learn to. Or I'm going to go and learn how to, you know, garden or whatever. And I think, you know, in our, in, in our line of work, what we are finding is that we have a lot of guilt amongst teachers.
[00:26:11] They feel, or TAs or anybody that works in [00:26:15] education. There's this big sort of guilt piece. I shouldn't be relaxing, I should be working, but well done on keeping going and well wells and on getting them there. So that's incredible.
[00:26:25] Sue: If we don't, we are going to lose a lot of teachers. We're gonna lose a lot of really fantastic practitioners.
[00:26:33] Because as leaders in my position and in other schools, their positions as leaders, [00:26:40] they have to, this is, this is not a tick box. This is not, this is not a thing to do. This is a thing we must do. And leaders must lead by example. There are things that can change in schools. We work with, we worked last year with about a hundred, um, schools in Calderdale.
[00:26:57] Yeah. Trying to get, trying to focus on, uh, what real inclusion looks like. Let's forget silent [00:27:05] corridors. Let's forget C ones and C twos. And the unbelievable thing about reasonable adjustments 'cause they're not reasonable. 'cause these are children. Yeah. That's, this is it. These changes are important. If we put kids and staff wellbeing first, there are things that we can be done.
[00:27:25] I, and sometimes I've had leaders, I did a, a talk, [00:27:30] um, at the secondary heads and one of the things that I said was that, um, I know some of you guys will be sat there thinking. So K for Sue. She works non maintained. She doesn't have to be ruled by the local authority. Um, she's got lots of money. Well, this foundation didn't have lots of money.
[00:27:48] This foundation was in deficit for a number of years, and there were redundancies and there were sad times. [00:27:55] We built this, this foundation built on love and kindness and total inclusion and. We've done that from no money, apart from we want kids to come and we've expanded and we've got bigger and we've got better.
[00:28:11] We've still got learning to do and that's how we've become. And everybody can do that. All schools can do that. You know, you don't have to have lots of money. You just have to have [00:28:20] that belief that kids come first and then you'll stop having silent corridors. Giving C ones offered not having a sharp pencil.
[00:28:27] Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I agree. Um, and I think it's a really interesting, um, space that you are in. 'cause it's not usual, is it? You are quite unique in that or relatively unique in that, so that's fantastic. But you just mentioned there about, um, recruitment and retention in how, you know, if you don't look after your staff, they're gonna [00:28:45] leave.
[00:28:45] And one of the things that we are finding is that a lot of women. They're going through menopause, they're, they're starting to leave. And in a challenging role in Ascend school, we're finding that that is even worse. You know? So what have you done, or what can you do to prevent, um, women of menopause or years, which could be anywhere from 35 to, you know, 55?
[00:29:08] What are you doing to, to [00:29:10] retain them and how can you help them?
[00:29:11] Sue: Well, when I talked about being pre-diabetic, I was al also, um, perimenopausal. So the, the physical activity is really important as we know. Um, the, the strong bones really important. That movement's really important. Strength training, and that's why we have that in school.
[00:29:32] That's why we have a personal trainer. I am very, [00:29:35] very open. About my menopausal journey. Um, and I've shared a piece, I think you've got it as well. I shared a piece, whole foundation about my own journey, um, and about things that I had tried and not always worked, and I share all those. Um, we have, um, a menopause cafe that meets every Wednesday and you know, we, we have time to.[00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Discuss how it feels and the, the impact of the job, um, with regard to the menopause and the little things that we can do to, to, to try and make things better for ourselves and for those people around it, because it's not just a problem for women.
[00:30:15] Mary: Absolutely. Yes.
[00:30:16] Sue: And having, you know, senior leaders who are, who, who, I think I can say this, who are, who are males, is about them understanding as [00:30:25] well and really understanding.
[00:30:26] So we have wellbeing champions, we have, um, ambassadors, menopause ambassadors, of which of which some are men. And that's good. Um, because they do need to understand, they do need to appreciate, they need, they need to value.
[00:30:41] Mary: And I think it also sends the message of you're training male menopause ambassador.
[00:30:44] It, it, it, it sends the message that this is everybody's problem. Um, it's everybody's, [00:30:50] um, concern, isn't it? It's not just the woman who should sort of scurry off and, um, look after herself. It's, it's a community that can support. And that community often in education is men as well as female colleagues.
[00:31:02] Sue: Absolutely. So we have like a, we have a quality of life leadership team meeting once a month, half term, and that. That consists of everybody through the foundation, so they're not senior leaders. I [00:31:15] always go because our foundation's built on it. Yeah. It's really important that I go and. Have my say and bring my experience and bring my, um, 'cause the, it is in the ethos.
[00:31:28] It's the way of, it's the way that we be. It's the way that we are. And it's really important. I don't go to, I don't go to a maths group. Yeah. I don't go to literacy and comms meetings. [00:31:40] I always go to a quality of life. Always never miss one. 'cause it's really important. It underpins all our values.
[00:31:46] Mary: It's interesting what you just said then, because obviously the culture of an organization is essentially how things are done around here and what you are saying there is absolutely spot on in terms of this is our culture, this is how we are around here, quality of life.
[00:31:59] Is how things are done around here, which is fantastic. So it's really, you can see that you've really embedded that into the culture [00:32:05] and the fabric of your organization, which is great. So good.
[00:32:09] Sue: So the other men menopause things is, you know, we, we put informa, we put information out, we share, we share, um, in our wellbeing, we are wellbeing.
[00:32:18] Newsletters and we'll put a piece in, in the Wellbeing newsletter about something about the menopause or something, about a different aspect of, of wellbeing so that it's not, so we talk about it. It's [00:32:30] not, not talked about because it's one of those subjects.
[00:32:33] Mary: There's a stigma to it, isn't there?
[00:32:35] Sue: Yeah. But I don't think that, you know, there might have be in some places, but.
[00:32:39] The, the, the ethos is not that we, we, we talk about it, we value it. We, we try to understand.
[00:32:46] Mary: I think that's what we, we, we like to see, you know, we want everybody to be breaking down these barriers, particularly with women's health. I think we find that women's health is, and [00:32:55] has historically been sort of shut away and, you know, something that is not openly talked about.
[00:32:59] Um, and I think nowadays it's changing and it's changing quite quickly, which is great. And, um, yeah, it's, it's great to hear that you can open that conversation and that everybody's engaged. And everybody's, um, you know, accepting of it, which is great. And I'm, I'm assuming that, um, the women really enjoy that atmosphere to work in.
[00:33:17] I
[00:33:17] Sue: hope so. I mean, it's like everything in leadership, [00:33:20] isn't it? You just, you're trying to get things right. You don't always get it, get it right first. So we're doing something about, uh, men's health at the moment. We're trying to find a way for, so talking about. Checks. What what's tending to happen is that the women are going for checks and the guys are not going.
[00:33:38] So we have, we, we have a school nurse, but we also have a, an occupational health nurse that, that's part of our school health [00:33:45] team. So her job is purely about. The workforce. So they're going to her for, they might go for blood pressure checks. They might go for little concerns that, or things that are worrying them, but that's been exceptionally well received as that.
[00:33:59] I think she got something like between September and. December last year, something like 226,
[00:34:04] Mary: goodness me,
[00:34:05] Sue: like referrals.
[00:34:06] Mary: Is that because you can't get a GP appointment anymore? I think that's one of the [00:34:10] things, isn't it? That there's some of
[00:34:11] Sue: that is very similar to years ago when you couldn't get cams for your kids.
[00:34:15] So what we did was we, we developed our own, um, therapy. Therapists. We started with one, now we've got 15, 16 clinical, uh, you know, therapists who, who are providing psychotherapy for the kids and supporting the staff, and that's very similar. So you can't get a GP [00:34:35] appointment. Things are very different. What do we need to do to look after our staff?
[00:34:38] We'll tell you what we'll do. We'll imply we'll employ a nurse who is just focused on our workforce wellbeing.
[00:34:44] Mary: Fantastic. I mean, it sounds like you are, you are solving problems, you're seeing problems and just solving them in a very straightforward and, uh, fantastic forward thinking way, which is great.
[00:34:54] Sue: Well, you know, in our work, in Send, as we said, it's so challenging. You [00:35:00] have to be you or you get to be solution focused. A problem comes in and sometimes, you know what, sometimes that hits you a little bit because, uh, my governor's said to me just before Christmas, Sue, can you tell us your challenges?
[00:35:14] What do you mean? Well, because you, I know as soon as you get a challenge, you, you sorted it. Well, that's what we are, that's the sort of people we are. I think that all comes back from that residential care bit. I really do. You [00:35:25] know, that caring aspect of, of the, of the work.
[00:35:28] Mary: Fantastic. So on that note, I have one last question, and we always ask this one and we say, in the spirit of compassion, if you were to offer the listeners, um, a suggestion of one kind thing they could do for themselves today, what would yours be?
[00:35:45] Sue: Hmm. One kind thing. Well, it it, you might ask me to be more [00:35:50] prescriptive, but I would, that it's got to be self-care. It's got to be look after yourself. You can even, um, dress it up and make it sound selfish if you want, if it helps. 'cause I say this to some people and they go, yeah, but it's not fair, is it?
[00:36:06] Because if I look after myself, I can't do this, this, and this. And what I say is you can't look, if you don't look after yourself, you will not be able to do this. But if you look [00:36:15] after yourself, you will have more energy, more get up and go, you know, more, more, more enthusiasm, more drive to help other people.
[00:36:24] And that's why you came into the job. And that's the other thing, isn't it? Remembering why we came into the job, um, is really, really important. So good self-care, no guilt. No guilt, because if we're going to maintain some [00:36:40] outstanding practitioners, teachers, care staff, support staff, then we have to look after ourselves.
[00:36:48] We are number one.
[00:36:49] Mary: That's amazing. Thank you, Sue. That's been absolutely enlightening. I hope you enjoyed it. I did. Thank you. It was great to chat with Sue today and hear about how much value she puts on wellbeing, not only for her students, but her staff too. Working in special education can be as [00:37:05] challenging as it can be rewarding, and it's great to hear how the William Smith Foundation ensures that staff are well looked after so they can be the best they can be for their wonderful students.
[00:37:15] I hope you enjoyed this podcast today. Do dive into more of our podcast to hear more about how your staff wellbeing can be enhanced.