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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ Today I'm speaking with the sculptor, ceramicist, artist Paul Smith. I first came across his work many years ago and have always been struck by the powerful quality of compassion that, for me, sits within the pieces he creates. Since then I've (joyfully) brought two of his pieces into my home - you'll hear more about what they represent to me... and how Paul keeps his own interpretation of his work open, so each person finds their own story wit...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
Today I'm speaking with the sculptor, ceramicist, artist Paul Smith.
I first came across his work many years ago and have always been struck by the powerful quality of compassion that, for me, sits within the pieces he creates.
Since then I've (joyfully) brought two of his pieces into my home - you'll hear more about what they represent to me... and how Paul keeps his own interpretation of his work open, so each person finds their own story within them.
It was a joy to speak with Paul and I'm delighted he accepted my invitation to join us here.
In our conversation, we explore the profound interplay between compassion, creativity, and masculinity. We touch on how true human connections, such as heartfelt hugs, are mirrored in creative works and the concept of gestalt, where intertwined figures symbolise both unity and individuality. And Paul shares his insights on the importance of compassion in our relationship with the natural world and the critical need to protect keystone species. His reflections highlight how creativity can foster a closer connection with our environment - as well as with our own emotional landscape. Toward the end of the episode, we come to understand this conversation is really about balance: balance in the beautiful work Paul shares, the importance of balance in nature and how we create balance across the different aspects in our inner and outer lives.
I loved speaking with Paul. I hope you enjoy listening.
MEET PAUL & see more of his work:
INSTAGRAM: @paulsmithsculptures
REFERENCES:
Women Who Run with the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype, by American psychoanalyst Clarissa Pinkola Estés (My enormous apologies for getting her name wrong in the episode!)
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Speaker 1: welcome back to
season 15.
Oh, my goodness me, and I feel
like I'm bringing a very
different energy from the one
that uh ended season 14 and um,
thank you, thank you for coming
back, thank you for being here,
thank you for listening to um,
that last episode uh, of 14.
I've had some really beautiful
messages about this relationship
, the interplay between
creativity and grief, and I
really appreciate everyone who's
written to me.
Today.
We are also talking about
creativity, but from a slightly
different angle.
This is about creativity and
compassion, and I am so
delighted to welcome with me the
sculptor, ceramicist, artist,
paul Smith.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self-awareness with profound
self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you,
okay, paul.
So, uh, all the technical
challenges uh overcome and here
we are and it's it's so lovely
to um to welcome you here, and
also it brings back the memory
of when I first met you and came
to your studio, which we'll
talk about in a bit, but I just
want to welcome you here really.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
It's good to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, and I
wondered if you remembered that
moment of when we met in the
same way.
It's slightly fishing, isn't it
?
It's like do you remember me,
paul?
Moment of when we met in the
same way.
It's slightly fishing, isn't it
?
It's like do you remember me,
paul?
Um, but do you remember the
story around how I found you
wasn't sure if you would or not?
Um, it's been a while.
It's been about a while about
before Covid, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: it was before Covid.
Was it something about a
creative writing um session that
you were leading?
Speaker 1: oh, there is
something, there definitely was
something around the writing.
It was, um, I I had seen, years
and years ago, I had seen one
of your pieces, um, that I, as
Little Red Riding Hood Hugging
the Wolf, and I just remember
feeling so struck by it that at
the time I took a photo and just
because there was something so
beautiful about the way they
were engaged with each other it
was actually, it was a really
big piece in a gallery in
Cambridge and I carried this
photo, you know, around in my
phone for a long time and then
it reappeared.
You know, sometimes sort of
your phone will like sort of
throw a photograph up to you and
when it reappeared, I looked at
it and I suddenly realised the
reason why it had resonated so
strongly with me, and it was to
do with writing, in the sense
that it was my journaling had
helped me connect with a part of
me which I saw as this black
dog, and when I saw the picture
of this piece that you'd created
, I just went oh my God, it's me
, it's the young girl in me
hugging this black dog, this
part that I'd identified as
being my anger, and that's
something I'd always been very
frightened of, that's something
I'd always been very frightened
of, and so your piece of art
helped me see how I'd actually
connected these two parts of me
and I was no longer frightened
of my anger anymore.
And when I shared the picture
online and I shared this story
and I had so many messages, paul
, from people because I just
sort of knew that there was this
artist, but I didn't know who
you were, shared this picture, I
had a message from Belinda
Glennon, who's another
ceramicist, who said, oh, that's
Paul Smith, I love his work.
I had a message from Liz who
said oh, yes, we know, paul from
you, know from around here.
And then another friend had one
of your pieces, another hugging
piece, and it just felt like a
sign and that is how I came to
find you.
I tracked you down, paul.
Speaker 2: You'd be surprised
how people tracked me down.
Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've
been doing this full time for
well, I'm just doing my accounts
today, which, um, which is so
this is a great relief from that
um, for 27 years.
So, um, nearly you know, my
27th year.
So, um, I've been around for a
while.
If I tried to add up the number
of pieces that I've made and
sold, really, it would be in the
hundred, many hundreds by now.
Um of all descriptions.
So, um, yeah, the images over
the internet.
They're there forever.
Of course, they can never be
expunged from the universe well,
yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, do we ever get
rid of anything?
That would be a that's a whole
other podcast episode, but I so
when?
When did the your connection
with creating these pieces?
In fact, will you describe for
us the hugging pieces that I've
talked about?
Speaker 2: The first few pieces
that I made were semi-abstract
animals on all fours just
standing, quite simple, very,
very plain, mainly British
animals, farm animals.
Paint what you know.
They say, write about what you
know.
So I thought just start from
very simple basics.
And then, as I was building up
different themes, I'd always
made human figures at art
college, some of them about
three meters tall, so
semi-abstract.
So I was always thinking how do
I get the human figure back
into the work?
So animals were selling.
I was enjoying making animals,
but I wanted to get the human
figure in.
So I made a sculpture of a
human, a female nude, and she
was in a crouching position with
a wolf by her side.
Now I sold that oh, I don't know
what, about 24 years ago
possibly, and I was just looking
at it and thinking I didn't
plan it, it just came.
So who could that be?
Where is that from?
And then I thought it might be
Red Riding Hood reconciling with
the wolf, and that kind of
opened the floodgates to this
new theme.
So if I'd have them hugging and
that kind of opened the
floodgates to this new theme.
So if I'd have them hugging,
then maybe the wolf is a
werewolf and they can actually
have a proper interaction.
So then I thought, well, if it's
Red Riding Hood, then maybe
Goldilocks might be another
thing to explore.
So the stories, those stories
usually end up quite badly,
somebody quite often dies, and
they're quite dark.
So I thought, well, maybe let's
bring those elements together
in a more sort of harmonious
whole.
Um, and what what you said
earlier really interests me, the
fact that it's reconciling two
parts of yourself which, um, I
kind of tinkered around with in
my head, but not in so many
words.
So that's quite revealing.
I always thought of them as a
yin and a yang, and usually a
male and a female, as two parts
of a whole, but not necessarily
that.
Speaker 1: Wow, within us all is
the sacred masculine and the
sacred feminine.
You know we are, we are all,
all, absolutely all of it, and
and I think I mean I loved the
word that you just used there
about reconciling that, that
sense of um, um being.
There's something within that
word which is also about being
at peace, or making peace, um,
and, and I think for me
certainly the, the image of the
wolf and the young girl hugging,
really felt like a sense of
peacefulness internally.
And and, in fact, when I look
across all of your pieces cause
I, you know, follow you on
Instagram, which I will I'll
share the link, cause I think
the way that you write and share
about what you create is so,
it's so, it's just so lovely,
it's so authentic.
Thank you, um, but I, there are
so many of the pieces that I
look at, and I look at it
through through the eyes of the
sort of therapeutic coach that I
am, and I just think oh gosh,
that's very interesting.
What is which part of me?
Is that resonating with?
And which part of the person
who says this piece is needs to
come home with me.
What is it resonating with
within them?
Speaker 2: I think it's
different for everybody.
Yeah, I think I think people,
um often it's about a grief
process, um, or remembering um
people that have gone, or or
even animals that have gone, um,
it's quite often people have
lost their beloved pet and they,
um, you know, they they
associate the, the wolf or the
bear with with that.
That creature, um, that's not
there anymore, and that's quite.
Speaker 1: That's quite common
and it speaks to the different
levels, doesn't it that we can?
We can see art, we can see um
sort of any piece of creativity
like and however we see it is
valid as well.
I think that's really important
.
Um, and when you, when you
think about those hugs I've got
um, is it clarissa smith?
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I'm gonna
I've got her name wrong but she
writes about women who run with
wolves.
Speaker 1: Yes, and, and this
like analysis of, uh, the
Grimm's fairy tales and the the
folk tales and what they
actually mean in terms of
masculinity and femininity.
So I think there's something
really resonant with what you're
saying about that and the uh,
like the reimagining of how the
story could be.
Yes, things don't have to end
in a grisly way.
Speaker 2: No, certainly not.
I mean, there can be joy as
well.
The dancing figures I think
they express that joy and
freedom and a letting go and a
release, and I enjoy making them
.
It's just a case of how far can
I go with this?
How much fun can I make it?
Speaker 1: And when you think
about the hugs the hug as in,
you know, this interaction that
happens between these two
figures when you think about
that connection that you're
creating, what is it that?
Speaker 2: feels really
important?
Well, I suppose for me it's the
peace between the protagonists.
They've come to terms with
their previous differences, so
they're unlikely bedfellows, if
you like.
The wolf, or the bear, or tiger
or whatever it is, is a big,
powerful predator usually, but
when I make my sculptures, they
always tend to be quite friendly
for some reason, and I think
that's a manifestation of what's
inside of you, isn't it?
I mean, it's not.
You know, I'm quite cuddly
really, so it's hard to.
I'm not an actor, you know.
As you said something about me
being truthful before.
I'm not trying to be something
that I'm not an actor.
As you said something about me
being truthful before, I'm not
trying to be something that I'm
not.
And in my sculptures as well,
I'm just, I'm having fun and
just expressing what I'm feeling
, and I think they're quite
hopeful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they
are very hopeful.
I think there's also I mean
gosh, without without going sort
of too deep and it becoming a
therapy session, but I mean
there's definitely feels like
there's something in there about
you talked about that the
protagonist is often this kind
of male character.
So here we've got this, this
male artist creating these very
sort of generous and loving
representations of masculinity
and that's I think that is also
engaging and sort of comforting
thing actually as well maybe,
and that obviously hugs in in
their essence are comforting
things yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: That's sums it up.
Speaker 1: Really, I think I
like that it's funny as well,
because when I think about, um,
like how hugs that don't feel
true, how we know in our system,
you know, when someone hugs us
and it doesn't feel quite true,
you know the kind of back patty,
um, or slightly sort of
resistant hug Like we know,
don't we?
And just as when we look at a
piece of art I'm sort of
thinking about this connection
between compassion and
creativity Like we sense, when
we look at something, the
truthfulness of it.
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, and
actually you can meld this, the
pieces together, that the, the,
uh, the figures together, so
that they interlock, almost like
they're tessellated, almost
that they can't be separated.
They're, they're um, entwined
um, and that can make quite a a
guest out whole as a shape, as
well as a, as well as a feeling
oh, I'd just like to sit with
that.
Speaker 1: A gestalt hole with a
w, yeah, yeah, that's um, oh
gosh, because I'm obviously.
I have a second piece of yours,
as you know, um, which for me,
and, and it is two of your two
dancing figures, and when I saw
it on your feed and I
immediately messaged you and
just went, oh, I really think
these may need to come and live
with me and and there is a um.
So basically, it's for me it's
the, it's the dog that's grown
up into the wolf and it's the
girl that's grown up into the
wolf and it's the girl that's
grown up into the woman, and
they're dancing a tango.
I mean, honestly, I will share
a picture of this when I share
this episode.
Oh, it's just so beautiful, but
that sort of sense of when you
talk about the gestalt whole,
this kind of so they are a
single unit, just as two dancers
are a single unit and yet, and
yet you have this sense of their
independence and their um,
separateness as well, and um,
yeah, I mean I look at this
piece every day sitting on my
desk and it's such a beautiful
reminder of how you know,
talking about those parts, of
how our relationship with those
internal parts can shift and
grow, and yeah, I kind of like
I'd be really interested.
I know you said that sparked a
thought for you, and is there
anything else going on in your
head when you think about that,
that idea of being part, maybe
parts of you?
Speaker 2: Well, it's a hard one
to answer.
I'm afraid I don't really think
of it in those terms directly
when I'm working.
I just go with the flow, as
they say, and let people
interpret it afterwards.
But there's certainly messages
and layers of meaning behind
each piece, but which which
isn't necessarily overt, because
I don't want to lead people.
I want to be able to create
something which raises questions
and provides a general, a
general feeling and a satisfying
visual thing, hopefully, um, so
that all those elements have to
work together, yeah, or else it
fails as a piece of art, I
think, for me anyway.
Speaker 1: And how does so?
You mentioned earlier about
grief that sometimes that's an
emotion that you, that the piece
is speaking to, and one of the
things that I've been reflecting
on a lot recently is how, um,
grief can impact our creativity,
and also how it can be, um how
creativity can be one of our
greatest allies as we move
through grief.
And wrapped in and around all
of that is this concept of
compassion and creativity, and I
just wonder if that sparks any
sort of thoughts for you in
terms of either compassion or
grief or their relationship with
creativity.
Speaker 2: I think my work is
more about compassion rather
than grief, and I think it's
directly related to the natural
world, in the sense that we are
we're trashing the environment.
Species are going extinct and
I'd like to help, in my own
small way, foster a closer
understanding and relationship
with the animal world,
especially um, and protect the
animals in the world.
We need to protect the
environment first of all, um.
So without these, these
keystone animals that like the
bears and the wolves and the
lynx and the whales, if we can't
protect those, then we can't
protect the smaller creatures,
and then the plants and the
animals and the fabric of the
earth itself, the whole pyramid
falls down.
So I'm trying to do my bit to
raise awareness of.
You know, there should be a
compassion towards the natural
world as well as our own species
.
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1: I think that's really
gorgeous.
Yeah, I really do, and that's so
interesting.
It sort of sparked a thought
for me, actually, because so
much of my work is about the
inner world, which we also need
to pay attention to and, um, you
know, I read something recently
about, um, emotional regulation
is basic.
If everybody can learn
emotional regulation, then it
will, um will stop being violent
towards each other, will, um,
you know, uh, we'll no longer
need to distract ourselves with
uh, so many um substances, etc.
Etc.
So you know, there is something
really important about this,
this connection with the inner
self and being able to fall in
love with the inner self.
But then, listening to what
you're saying about that
compassion and the really
profound and important extension
and you know, extension as in
outside of self, into the
natural world, and how your
pieces speak to that is is
really really beautiful.
And again, actually maybe that
also sort of turns those hugs
around as well, because maybe
then it's like the, the
nurturing, you know nature of
the divine feminine loving the
natural being the, the wolf, the
lion, the tiger and nurturing
them.
Do you know what?
That's so hilarious, Paul,
because I literally hadn't seen
it that way.
I've been so like centered in
on my oh.
This is like my inner self
being represented through the
art of sculpture.
Speaker 2: This is why I like to
leave it open to the viewer.
Speaker 1: Yes, Well, and it
will still be.
I mean, you know it always.
I mean, I think for me, you
know, that's the point of
connection and yeah, it's so
lovely to hear that as well.
And yeah, and I know you teach
others as well, don't you?
You teach.
Speaker 2: I've only just
started doing workshops really,
but I have really enjoyed it.
But it's quite new to me.
But I've done quite a few
demonstrations, you know, before
so in the last few years.
So I am used to speaking in
public a little bit, which is
always a great fear of mine.
In the past I'd have run away
with it, run away from it, but
I'm not afraid of it anymore.
It's something which I've been
Is that part of you?
Speaker 1: is that part of you
that have been that was afraid
of speaking in public?
Have been an animal, paul.
Speaker 2: What animal have you
been?
Oh, a little fighting rabbit oh
.
And, of course, every single
person listening is now hugging
that little fighting rabbit um,
yeah, but uh, I think, I think
I'm the expert on my work, um,
so I'm talking from position of
strength.
If I talk about my own work, um
, and especially when I'm doing
a hands-on demonstration, it's,
it flows naturally, because I've
got the physical clay there,
the physical being, as well, as
I'm talking to people one-to-one
as well, so I can see their
faces when they're bored.
Speaker 1: And what's your sense
of what I mean?
Maybe this is just all sort of
part of what we've said before,
but I just wondered is there
something specific that you see
other artists, other ceramicists
who are curious about?
How, about the work that you do
Like what is it that is drawing
them?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well it's.
It's hard to say from my point
of view, but I'm guessing,
because I don't just do the hugs
, I make animal sculptures and I
still rely on that, that
strength, um, that that's the
foundation of all that I do in
sculpture.
So it's the form is the most
important thing, it's the shapes
, it's, it's the form that's the
most important thing.
It's the shapes, it's the
solidity, the roundness, the
weight, the pose of the creature
.
What people see first, they see
almost the silhouette, the
shape as a whole, which
hopefully burns itself upon
their retina and they can never
forget it.
So I think maybe that's the
first thing that brings them in.
Speaker 1: And then you see the
detail of the, of the
relationships with the combined
figures because I tell you what,
honestly, there is a quality to
the expressions and it's it's
not just the facial expression,
it's the physicality of the
pieces that you create that and
and there's a reason why you've
been doing this for 20-odd years
, because obviously there's
something about it that is
really resonant, and I think
there is this really very
special quality around the
expression of connection between
the figures.
I also just wondered, like does
compassion play a part in how
you see your own work?
If you sort of, or how you like
, support yourself as you work,
are you compassionate towards
yourself?
Speaker 2: Not always you, as
you work, are you compassionate
towards yourself?
Um, not always, I think.
I think, as an artist making a
living from my work, it's.
It's not always easy.
Um, sometimes you drive
yourself a bit too hard, um, and
other times you just go go off
somewhere else and run away and
a bit of time off, which
everybody does, of course, um,
so I try not to.
I try to give myself space.
Um, I think treating it as a
full-time job is the most
important thing.
So getting up early in the
morning, um, doing sort of some
pilates, having some breakfast,
know, going for a walk, that's
as much as important part of the
day as making the pieces.
Because if you're just working
all the time, you're not around
an individual and I think it
would show in the work it would
become stiff and boring.
And so I have to get on my bike
every now and again go see some
friends, um, but sometimes if,
if I've got a deadline and I've
got to do lots of glazing ready
for a show, then I'll you know
I'll go in get it the weekend,
um, so it, I think it does
equate to a you know, a nine to
five, five day a week job, but
with strange hours and also to
your point.
Speaker 1: I mean, if, if you, I
think, when we're creating
something, whatever that is,
whether that's a piece of art, a
piece of sculpture, a piece of
writing, uh, um, carving, you
know, like, whatever it might be
um, if, if we lose sight of
ourself, then then what gets
created can, can be a little
less than because, um, you know
it.
I think that's sort of that's
where my you know what I was
saying earlier about this kind
of idea of like, creativity
being part of what can help us
when we move through difficult
times as well, because, um, it,
it, it is a form of like,
enabling ourselves to engage
fully in what's happening.
And if we lose sight of that, I
think, yeah, like you said, was
it?
Um, it could get a bit dry, or
something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think.
I think think it's like
anything If you do anything too
much, you lose sight of what
it's really about.
And I think that's why a lot of
people's jobs become boring for
them, because it's just taking
over too much of their life and
it's not really where they want
to be much of their life, um,
and it's not really where they
want to be um, so I I I know
that I'm lucky um being able to
make a living out of what I do,
um, but it's it's not all.
You know, it's not all.
Sitting around waiting for
inspiration and, uh, you know
having a nice cup of tea and
there's, there's.
You know there's a lot of of
tea and there's.
You know, there's a lot of
thought and sometimes even
anguish over things.
You know, over technical
problems, and you know, when a
kiln fine doesn't work out and
everything's cracked, that's the
time to swear.
Speaker 1: Or that's the time to
really practice the
self-compassion yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So I think it's all
about balance.
Yeah, the work is about balance
as well, because the balance
between the figures, the balance
between the emotions, the
balance between the forms, um so
, um, so balance yeah, and out
that's what I strive for, I
don't necessarily always achieve
it oh well, that's interesting,
isn't it?
Speaker 1: because there's um,
uh, there's a richard back quote
which is he wrote, jonathan
livingston seagull and he
famously said, um, that we teach
what we most need to learn.
Oh okay, that's interesting, so
maybe a little bit of inside
there yeah, get some more but
also it, I think, I think to
your point.
It is, it's an ongoing practice,
isn't it?
It's, um, it's not losing sight
of the fact that, um, even if
we love doing something, it's
really important that we also
create space for the other
things in our life.
Just as, actually, I'd say, if
you know, if we're doing
something which we don't really
love, then finding space for
things that we do really love
can rebalance you know, um,
where we're at and maybe help us
see other things that we can
make changes with.
So, yeah, balance.
That feels like a a good um, a
good point to reach in our
conversation.
Actually, I there's a well, one
last question, I suppose just
to is there anything?
Is there anything that you
would say to someone who's say,
to someone who's listening, who
perhaps is feeling a kind of
pull to creativity but maybe has
got a limiting belief that
they're not creative or doesn't
quite know, like, where to begin
or I don't know something
limits them?
Is there anything that you
would say to those people?
Speaker 2: um, just just enjoy
it.
If they feel drawn towards that
, that mode of expression, then
just enjoy it.
Um, and I always think of the
work of david shrigley.
As an artist, his work looks
quite childlike in the sense of
his drawing, but it's obviously
deliberately like that, um, and
it's very, very clever.
Um, so it's not all about
technical ability.
Um, it's about bringing
something up from inside.
It isn't about showing off.
It isn't about making somebody
impressed with how good you are
at something.
It's telling story and being
true and having fun.
So get those, get those pens
and pencils out and scribble
away and see what happens.
Get that bit of clay and just
let it happen.
Speaker 1: I love that.
I love that.
I think that point around it's
not about impressing somebody,
because often the person that
we're thinking about impressing
would be our art teacher from
when we were eight or, you know,
a grandparent or a parent from
when we were younger, or we have
that comparisonitis and go so
and so so much better than me.
And I remember when, um I was
at a party a few years ago and
uh of an artist who has since
become a friend, uh was standing
with me and a very, very old
friend of mine and uh and this
artist said uh turned to me and
said so, are you a creative?
And I said um turned to me and
said so, are you a creative?
And I said well, I kind of am.
And my friend just burst out
laughing and just went.
Oh my God, annie.
Speaker 2: You're really
creative.
Speaker 1: And I said, am I?
And she said, oh, my God, just
think about all the fads you've
had over the years.
And it was actually that moment
that made me release that
thought, because I think because
I was sort of asked if I was a
creative that it was like, oh,
suddenly that's got meaning and
connotations and you know it's
heavy, whereas actually are you
creative A hundred percent, and
I think it's one of the most
fundamental kind of human
qualities and traits and so
often it gets lost.
Speaker 2: Actually, yes,
because we're told that we're
already not um.
But creativity can take many
forms, so it might be dance, it
might be music, it might be
skiing, it might be all sorts of
things.
Speaker 1: Rock climbing might
be.
Yeah, anything at all they can
be very creative and expectative
, um, yeah, so um, don't limit
yourself no, exactly, and
actually, there there comes the
compassion, doesn't it?
It's like, hold that, hold
those beliefs very, very
tenderly and and let yourself
play.
That's it, play, play.
Yeah, that's it, okay I'm.
I'm going to ask you one last
question, paul.
Um and uh, it's a question that
I I often ask my clients and,
uh, I ask my guests, uh, on the
show as well.
So, if this time of your life
was a chapter in your book of
life, what would the chapter
heading be?
Speaker 2: oh, um, uh, okay, um,
um, a chance to go for it oh uh
, because I have built up um a
certain um I'd call it
reputation, but you know certain
um um career, if you like,
we're allowed to say these
people know people know about me
yeah, they do, um, and they
know about my work, and so I'm
in a privileged, privileged
position where I could change
things.
So I think, um, I'm going to be
working over the winter on some
new work and see where that
leads.
Speaker 1: Oh, gorgeous, I love
that.
Thank you so much for sharing
that.
I really felt.
I felt the coming back to the
truthfulness and I was kind of
aware, as I asked it was like,
oh, is this a bit big?
But I love that, yes, and and
so go for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't be afraid
.
Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant,
there are all these hugs around
you, paul.
See, each one of these fierce
animals that you create are also
powerful figures.
Oh right, yeah, thanks for that
.
Also powerful figures.
Oh right, yeah, thanks for that
.
Okay, well, thank you so much
and, yeah, I look forward.
I'm going to share pictures,
once I send this live, of my two
pieces and I'm sure people love
the stories behind them that's
brilliant.
Speaker 2: It's been fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really has.
Speaker 2: Thanks, annie, thank
you.