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The Navvai Shift – AI & Business Insights
Welcome to The Navvai Shift, the podcast where business leaders in finance share their journeys, challenges, and unfiltered thoughts on artificial intelligence. We dive deep into how AI is shaping industries, uncovering real-world insights from those driving innovation.
Subscribe for expert conversations on AI, automation, and the future of business.
these two worlds don't talk to each
other because they don't have working
apis there isn't a software or a
middleware or even a protocol to define
the transfer of information therefore
the information is partial or
non-existent we are kind of disrupting
the traditional invoice financing World
actually because that tends to be slow
it tends to be prone to manual errors it
tends to take time to get credit
assessments and to actually deploy funds
there is a f world and there's a paytech
world these two worlds today don't talk
to each other these two worlds don't
have a middleware a software they don't
have the intelligence to uh interface
each other they barely have working apis
that means that information doesn't flow
between the
two so another episode of n shift we
have the pleasure of har Lawrence gioli
on the the founder of lender wires
Lawrence how you doing excellent very
well thank you hi much appreciate for
jumping this call with us today so of
course we're looking to get further
insight into your business and also how
you see AI developing in the near future
essentially in the finance world but um
just for the viewers listening could you
give us a bit more insight into lender
wise and also
yourself sure uh so I'm the founder of
lender wise and we are a fintech and
ptic platform actually we're specialized
in the digital Finance Arena
uh uh and in Telecom receivables in
particular my personal background I'm
was born in New York raised in Italy I'm
a dual citizen uh I have a technical
background and a creative mindset I've
always developed new technologies and
services based on new technologies and
so AI of course is a very exciting New
Frontier for us yeah amazing so Lawrence
in a telecom industry they are very
notorious for a 50 day cash flow Gap so
what makes Finance in this in this space
so
complex very good question so Telecom
indeed is a digital asset phone calls
are digitized so anything Associated to
that Arena means that it's not a
tangible asset that makes it different
we have developed a technology which
allows us to capture and validate the
underlying assets so so the peculiar
things about the Telecom space is that
we are talking about Telecom receivables
we are talking about business bus to
Business Services uh an industry
actually with $64
billion uh which is led by tier one
Telecom operators and where there is a
payment mismatch in the supply chain so
we are actually funding supply chain
networks for Telecom tier one operators
making things better faster safer for
themselves I see so you did touch on
obviously that you're developing a lot
of like Technologies in the back ground
what kind are these Technologies going
to be using Ai and how do you see uh
Technologies like improving invoice
finances and cash flow
management so we are kind of disrupting
the traditional invoice financing World
actually because that tends to be slow
it tends to be prone to manual errors it
tends to take time to get credit
assessments and to actually deploy funds
so the technologies that we've developed
relate to the on boarding of clients to
the credit assessment of clients to the
deployment of funds to the monitoring of
payments and to making sure that if
something is funded it actually gets
paid back through the funders so we've
developed a technology which allows us
to basically sit in between a bunch of
lenders institutional lenders and a
bunch of clients which need liquidity to
solve the the payment mismatch that
exists in a lot of business B2B sectors
we basically converting invoices and
performa invoices into liquidity and
we're doing this with the technology
which is mitigating risks AI has an
essential role in all of this because it
allows us to better understand client
needs it allows us to better understand
payment Behavior it allows us to
identify uh any wrongdoing uh uh uh and
therefore AI has an essential role in
mitigating risks and making sure that we
can provide more and more funds in a
safe
way perfect and what role does AI play
in streamlining payment processes and
reducing inefficiencies would you
say so it has a very key role um because
first of all uh uh it means that we are
automating processes we are automating
checks we are automating underwriting
decisions we are under we are automating
a lot of the steps that are needed to
make sure that things are safer for
lenders and ultimately safer for the
clients themselves so it means AI has
been used for automated CR credit risk
assessments AI has been used to
implement the execution of smart
contracts and the actual deployment of
funds and it means that it's been used
also for better cash control better cach
Dominion the bottom line is AI is been
used for the payments and for the
decision making making things faster
safer and at lower costs than typical
and traditional non automated and non AI
systems occur to occur I mean basically
automation is much better definitely
understood so we can obviously see that
lender wise is ahead of the curb in
terms of like technological advancements
but would you say in the whole kind of
financial service industry they're
adapting to these technical enforcements
or would you see like there's a there's
going to be like a massive Gap in
obviously the years to come when AI gets
more and more used and developed there
is a massive Gap right now because today
a lot of the decision making occurs
manually it occurs with an internal
treasury that has to decide to purchase
an invoice or an asset and then needs to
go online banking and manually put the
data in this is because we are
ultimately talking about two different
worlds there is a fintech world and
there's a paytech world these two worlds
today don't talk to each other these two
worlds don't have a middleware a
software they don't have the
intelligence to interface each other
they barely have working API that means
that information doesn't flow between
the two if information doesn't flow
between the two that means there are two
separate databases one database on the
fex side which has to do with the
purchase of the assets the other
database which has to do with the actual
cash movement if these two databases
don't talk to each other information
cannot be reconciled the information
cannot be uh uh auditable in real time
so we've not only developed the
middleware for these two worlds to talk
to each other but we're implementing in
AI to make it better and faster and
safer that's amazing so it's very clear
that the finex are definitely Tak lead
in charge in this produce essentially
but then how can data driven insights
improve financial decisions for Telecom
businesses so obviously the best
decisions are made with the greatest
amount of information so on one side you
need quantity and AI can be used to do
to more in-depth searches on the
individuals on the beneficial owners on
the underlying assets on the companies
on one side it's a question of sheer
quantity of information and AI is very
good at analyzing huge quantities of
information in real time or close to
real time on the second side it's a
question of making better decisions and
analyzing with more intelligence so it's
not just a question of
sheer quantity it's a question also of
quality of the data and AI allows us to
better segment the data to better
pinpoint the correct data and to focus
on the right data to be looking at
obviously if one does an analysis of
wrong data the outcome is going to be
wrong so it's essential to have quality
data it's essential to be pinpointing on
the correct data and AI is not only good
at identifying the right dat data but
it's also good at refining that search
and making it better and better over
time so AI is essential at analyzing
quantity quality and pinpointing the
actual decision
making perfect and in relation to all
these so AI definitely has got a lot of
benefits what do you think are the main
reasons people are hesitant to adopt
these new
technologies that's a great question in
the end I think it has to do with basic
human personalities and characters some
people are ready for change some people
are afraid of change some people are
afraid of Technologies especially for
something that's so romantic like AI you
can think of AI as something that goes
beyond human decisions and something
that becomes a robot and something that
becomes scary of course this is not true
of course AI is programmed by human
beings and of course it's used by human
beings and will continue to be used so
in the end AI is not to be scared of um
the adoption of AI and change means
there has to be training there has to be
education and there has to be trials and
testing the best way to overcome fear is
to start in a small case and get
accustomed to it and then grow step over
step and to take it one step at a time
like a small child that's learning to
walk yeah so Lawrence you did touch on
it previously but in relation as you
said a lot of training is needed a lot
of different external factors to assist
people to actually adopt it what other
barriers would you say there are about
with financial t or Telecom businesses
struggling to adop these
Technologies so of course there are some
barriers which are technological also
it's not just a question of human beings
and human personalities it's also a
question of of technology and the
embeddedness of technology and the
ability to act ACC information uh which
could be sitting in different silos it
could be separate it could be not
interfaced so kind of coming back to the
bigger picture I was just drawing of
these two worlds the fintech world and
the paych world these two worlds if they
don't talk to each other because there
aren't working apis if a bank for
example doesn't have a a sufficiently
sophisticated API and by sufficent
sufficiently sophisticated I simply mean
data and information which unfortunately
is not easily shared a bank and I say
this because Banks admit it to me banks
barely have working apis they don't
provide all the information they might
have one API that tells you the balance
they might have one API which tells you
who the beneficiary is they don't have
complete sets of apis which give
complete visibility over
transactions that's a problem and that's
an obstacle leading to your question
which means there aren't just barriers
that are psychological barriers there
are technical barriers there are Legacy
systems which aren't used to access and
to external connections whether it's for
questions of security or questions of
Simply archaic systems and archaic
databases which are don't rely on
today's technology so there are a series
of technical barriers which which
definitely play a negative impact on
this Evolution which means there's a
great opportunity for companies like us
like lender wise like Navi and like
companies doing intelligent ways
creating intelligent ways to interface
data so how would you say Lawrence
businesses kind like transition from
more kind of Legacy Financial models to
like AI driven Solutions latest
Technologies so the easiest way I think
is the least obstacle route that's kind
of a philosophy I have in general
because there's enough obstacles already
in life and the least obstacle route is
uh first of all identifying the
opportunity and the advantage does a
solution solve what advantages does that
solution bring to the company that's
adopting it so the first thing is
clearly understanding what the
advantages are the second thing is okay
what's the road map to get there what's
the simple step what are the simple
stepping blocks to get there you don't
have to do and transform everything
overnight you can first take a first
step which makes things easier and
faster and more simple actually when it
comes to adopting these new technologies
which will constantly grow over time
because we have we have to actually
realize that AI is essential but it's
not an end it's a mean it's a means it's
a tool we are getting there and it's
constantly adapting and it will
constantly get better and better better
over time and that's what we need to
feed into we need to feed into a system
that we control that gives the results
that we want with an Adaptive model
that's based on the information that we
feed into
it 100% it's definitely about the the
right data points that you are actually
putting into these systems to actually
get the results and I feel like so what
would you say the risk or fragmented or
outdated Financial processes when
scaling a business or even still trying
to make maintain a
business so well obviously there are
risks in today's life in every business
that there are risks so there's a risk
in adapting new technology there's also
a risk and some would argue that's even
bigger if you don't adapt to change
change is essential in today's world
especially if you're talking about
technology because in today's world if
you start developing something today in
6 months it might be obsolete if you are
using tools and programmers and coders
that take six months to develop
something you are risking to use and
invest in something which might be
archaic in 12 months so it's essential
to adopt new tools which are fast quick
to implement quick to adapt and quick to
give advantages so the risk is actually
if you don't change if you don't adapt
if you don't exploit the new
technologies because there are other
companies out there that are doing it
competitors are doing this and if you
don't take advantage of the opportunity
you are potentially risking uh uh your
your existence
today understood so what would you say
are the main kind of challenges
companies face to ensure smooth
collaboration between I don't know like
Finch Telecom providers and
investors so the biggest risk is if
there isn't the the mentality of sharing
information and connecting information
information has to be connected via apis
it has to there has to be a spirit of
collaboration doesn't mean you're giving
away anything for free doesn't mean
you're giving away IP or information
which is strategic it means sharing
information for better decision making
for faster decision making for safer
decision making so uh um it's really
question of uh of taking advantage of
the way the world is moving today
technology is becoming more and more
transparent more and more cloud-based
and more and more collaborative that
means that in that collaboration there
can be multiple players multiple
suppliers that are adding a piece of
information or a piece of a process that
process fits into a mosaic that mosaic Z
becomes the overall picture that picture
gets drawn and designed and monitored by
AI making it a prettier picture making
it a more colorful picture and a better
picture from the point of view of safety
security and
opportunity W that is amazing so I think
it's definitely create a pain and
increasing role in the financial
automation but then how would you say
you see it transforming in the Telecom
financing next few
years great question so Telecom
financing is like any other financing
there are big Telecom operators that
have to pay suppliers the suppliers can
be hundreds of suppliers they have to be
paid in timely ways uh knowing that when
you're talking about payments you're
talking about cash availability you're
talking about treasury Services you are
talking about the need to convert
currencies you are talking about the
need to cash in and to pay out in a very
efficient way so this takes technology
unless you want to do it manually if you
do it manually it takes time that means
there can be human errors there can be
human discretion there can be human
delay all of which doesn't fit well with
a big supply chain Network so technology
is needed fintech is needed to manage
the purchasing of invoices the payments
of invoices and paytech is needed to
actually transfer the value AI is needed
to better understand the treasury needs
the funding requirements there might be
some months where a telecom operator has
cash availability and wants to invest it
on a short-term basis there might be
other months where the Telecom operator
wants to keep its cash and actually
needs cash so it can sell invoices
convert that into Cash there are months
therefore which the needs can change on
a monthly basis in some months you need
money in other months you can give money
the technology that lender wise has
developed allows a tier one operator a
CFO of a telecom operator to have his
own dashboard where he has complete
control over his own liquidity where he
can forecast his needs where he can
predict the payment behavior of his
clients where he can predict the payment
needs that he has to have and he can
decide in on a simple dashboard he can
decide what to sell what to buy what to
invest in or what to expect to be paid
uh and a very simple dashboard so this
is the way fch and paych and Telecom is
moving it's moving towards a technology
which gives complete control and
security to a CFO of a big Telecom
operator giving him flexibility giving
him him an
optimization of the liquidity of his
company whether he needs that for his
own shareholders his own stock markets
or whether he needs it to get better
deals from the suppliers because
obviously the greater control over you
have over the most basic asset which is
liquidity the more the greater the
control the better you can deploy and
the better you can optimize your
company's needs right so lawren you you
basically well you've touched on so many
different benefits AI you've taught me a
lot like I'm just I'm a bit overwhelmed
in case you can't tell but um I so so
with AI like how would you see that
improving risk assessment and like
Financial decision- making so when it
comes to risk assessment obviously you
have to analyze a lot of data when
you're analyzing a company you are
looking at who's the beneficial owner or
who who are the main decision makers you
have to look at those individuals you
have to chase their backgrounds you have
to know where they live you have to know
if there's anything negative on the
individual then you have to do the same
on the company that's needs the funding
you have to verify credit thirdparty
credit reports third-party credit
analysis you might have to analyze
insurance information whether that
compan is insurable or not so there's a
lot of data coming from multiple sources
that data needs to be read in real time
the more information you have the better
it is that data needs to be analyzed it
needs to be put in a standard format so
that it can be analyzed and it needs to
be analyzed with certain criteria that
criteria can be payment Behavior
historic payment Behavior it can be any
negative messages it needs to be done in
in an intelligent way because you know
no one's perfect and sometimes there can
be problems that have been overcome so
the data needs to be intelligent enough
to analyze if there's bad information
what were the causes of that has it been
resolved and therefore can the company
be funded even if there were maybe bad
things in the past and this is essential
because today's underwriting doesn't
have the ability to make differences
between past and present and it doesn't
have the ability to predict based on
that so AI is essential on one side at
capturing the information at analyzing
the information and that implementing
parameters which allow one to better
forecast the ability to pay to pay back
if there's a loan or to pay the invoice
if it's if it's factoring and so so AI
is essential at making better decisions
faster decisions with more modular and
flexible outcomes in the interest of the
funer and in the interest of the client
themselves because once again problems
can happen while the import is to
understand well is the company out of
that problem and therefore is it a very
good funding opportunity in the end a
fun wants to deploy money and they want
to be sure that they are paid back and
they want to price the interest rate
based on that risk that they're taking
so sometimes if it's a very safe
investment the interest can come way
down sometimes if it's a high risk the
interest goes up the AI is needed at
better refining what that risk is and
what the pricing the appropriate pricing
for the interest rate should be and once
again we've seen this in many occasions
we've seen some clients that had a bad
background but they completely fixed it
they completely turned around and they
became one of the best investments uh
because not only did they pay back
promptly but they paid initially at a
higher rate until they fixed up their
their payment behavior and their history
and therefore they were able to Ben
benefit from AI because not only did it
allow them to receive funding but also
to reduce the cost of funding over time
as they demonstrated a good payment
Behavior so would you say there are any
like other promising advancements in
your
industry there are tremendous advantages
in in Ai and in the industry as it's as
it expands first of all I would say the
greatest thing is that the adaptability
of ai ai can be adapted
to almost anything frankly I mean not
just to all the things I was mentioning
in finance and inch and paytech but also
in any other field I mean we are seing
It Go from from Finance to poetry to
analyzing football scores and to betting
and to I mean it the applications are
endless and it's to be honest I see this
once again not with fear I see this as
having a fantastic assistant today today
we can all use AI as the best assistant
because they are fast they are
transparent they don't get sick they
don't complain at anything we ask them
and we can even treat them badly and
they don't get mad at us hope hopefully
that stays that way hopefully it
stays yes I said do you think businesses
are ready to be fully automated with
financial processes or do you think
human oversight will always be necessary
well human oversight is always necessary
yes always for everything once again I
see this AI as a tool which is
controlled by human beings they will not
control us we will always control AI it
will make it so easy and fast that maybe
we can make wrong decisions because they
make it so easy for us so we'll have to
be careful that we don't shoot the gun
too quickly when AI is proposing a
solution we should continue to have a
very prudent use of this fantastic tool
but yes human beings will continue
having oversight over this I must say
that I'm I'm very impressed by
statements of well not to mention Elon
Musk but when Elon says that the entire
human knowledge is already within ai's
data rooms I mean today human Mankind's
knowledge is already fed into these
systems on one side that's pretty
mindblowing on the other side it means
means that we can make better analysis
of this we can make faster decisions
once again and once again just as long
as it's run by human beings I don't that
doesn't scare me amazing and obviously
we have touched quite a lot on AI but I
also wanted to get your insight into
blockchain as well so in relation to
blockchain do you see enhancing
transparency in financial
transactions and also can you de to the
benefits of what you've seen with
blockchain yeah so blockchain yes is
also a very intelligent and a very
interesting technology I kind of see
blockchain with two hats or two features
to it on one side it allows to uh uh to
log information and to have a ledger of
information which can't be changed or
stolen or or distorted so on one side
it's a way of lodging information on the
other side it's a way of implementing
automatic decision
and smart contracts I make this
distinction because I think blockchain's
real value is on the second side of
things it has allowed uh a technology
providers to automate decision making to
automate with smart contracts the actual
decision making and the execution sorry
not the decision making the execution of
decisions that have been made I think
there's Great Value to that that
technology doesn't require
the lodging side of thing it doesn't
require blockchain and it and so
therefore blockchain has indirectly
sparked a lot of software platforms to
automating execution which is great
value blockchain the lodging side or the
creating ledgers I mean to say uh is
very interesting but it's a bit
expensive blockchain in itself is
expensive if you're talking about
minting and burning or I mean when
you're talking about billions and
terabytes and terabytes of well not even
terabytes it actually is a very
expensive technology so I would argue
that it's best to further refine
blockchain into less expensive Solutions
because the ability to have immutable
data of course has great value to it and
yes that has been implemented in finance
it will continue to be implemented in
finance both from the Ledger point of
view and from the point of view of smart
contract
executions understood so um looking
ahead for lender wise we understand that
you've kind of made your tool that
Bridges the gap between the two
industries that you mentioned previously
so what's kind of next four lender wi
would you say in the next 12 to 24
months like are you still are you
currently building more tools are going
to are they going to be air driven I'm
just I'm just ining for the viewers as
well yeah so once again the Two Worlds I
mentioned is the f world is one industry
and the paytech world is another
industry these two worlds don't talk to
each other because they don't have
working apis there isn't a software or a
middleware or even a protocol to define
the transfer of information therefore
the information is partial or
non-existent and that means that there's
separate silos of information meaning
the information can't be reconciled in
real time it means that the the existing
worlds are separate they are they they
can't be reconciled they can't be
audited in real time so the technology
we've devel developed allows a full
reconciliation in real time of asset
purchase and cash movement at the same
time and we will continue on this
journey because we believe that it's an
essential tool for any bank or any
non-bank lender they need this kind of
Technology because a bank has lots of
money they want to deploy it in a safe
way in a scalable way in a transparent
way making sure that they are mitigating
their risks and the best risk that we
mitigate is indeed that we are by virtue
of the integration of these two worlds
by virtue of the fact that we are
executing with smart contracts decision
making we avoid human intervention human
intervention means potential human delay
potential human error potential human
discrep ction so Banks and non-bank
lenders need a technology so I see
ourselves going in the direction of pure
platform services for banks and for
non-bank lenders that
will really I mean they need this kind
of technology to mitigate the risks and
to deploy more and more money with in
safer ways of course and how would you
say you balance automation while while
it's ensuring you maintaining this
relationship with the Telecom providers
we use automation for the Telecom
operators because it allows to eliminate
human uh treasuries which have to
purchase something or pay something go
online banking put the data in uh
perhaps making a mistake because they'll
have to put an invoice number a currency
an amount and perhaps other data if that
information is is erroneously inserted
by bad doing or by human error that
means that things have to be fixed at
the end of the month and we have seen
this many many times we have been told
by tier one operators that they've had
treasuries that were supposed to net
credits and debits instead they actually
made payments they didn't get the money
back from their suppliers because of
this and so errors which were made
whether that was intentional or not
intentional errors can be made and in
our model we say that we prevent errors
rather than fixing them at the end of
the month we are curing rather than
curing something later we are preventing
that that flu or that disease to occur
in the first place yeah no definitely so
beyond AI what other emerging Trends you
say are reshaping the Telecom Finance
over the next say five years would you
say wow that's a big question because
five years five years is a big way but
but so I look at this at a bit shorter
because of how quickly things change I
mean let's let's you know even AI I mean
we're talking about AI today and it's
already impacting all our lives but six
months ago 12 months ago we weren't
talking about it AI itself is going to
be accelerating change and so I think we
can look at the next six to 12 maybe 18
months it's hard to look beyond that
because I'm sure there will be something
newer uh uh in 18 months at least which
will probably be an evolution or an
integration of what we're talking about
today and it comes back once again to
the fact that change happens and change
will continue to happen at a faster and
faster pace so all of these technologies
have to be understood have to be used
have to be monitored and controlled so
they don't get out of hand of course we
have the ability to do to do that human
beings are smart creatures we've
invented all of this in the first place
so there's no reason for us to not
control it in a safe way following
regulation following uh uh of course all
the all the rules that are being
implemented it's true it's true that
technology moves at a faster Pace than
laws than governments do but that's the
way it is and that will probably always
happen fortunately there are some very
smart countries that are faster than
others and the UK is actually I would
put in a Goods the UK definitely and the
US are two countries which are adapting
change very quickly and Chinese also
Chinese unfortunately for their own
interest but well I shouldn't say that
but fortunately there are some
governments that are moving very quickly
that's def what advice would you give to
Telecom businesses looking to embrace
AIA Financial Solutions a telecom
operator absolutely needs to to exploit
Technologies to make faster safer
decisions when it comes comes to its own
clients and its own underwriting
likewise it needs to automate outgoing
payments to suppliers and potentially to
Subs suppliers because it needs
transparency it needs to be sure from uh
from when it comes to even money
laundering it needs to be sure that the
money it receives comes from safe
sources it needs AI to better analyze
the origin of payments the origin of
clients it needs to understand better
how safe it is to give a credit line to
its clients it needs to better it needs
to pay more quickly so that the
suppliers provide better Services
because obviously if a tier one Telecom
operator is not paying in timely ways or
if it's exploiting payment mismatches if
it's paying its suppliers on 60 days
knowing that its supplier needs to pay
the subs supplier on seven days then the
tier one operator knows that it's paying
with the c play the cash flows of its
supplier if it can get away with that
fine if the supplier cannot sustain a
negative cash flow based on the payment
flows then that supplier might be in
difficulty it might have to interrupt
its Supply it might provide intermittent
Supply which is not in the interest of a
tier one a tier one wants stability
wants quality wants safety wants to be
sure
that suppliers and clients are happy
this is essential to any tier one
operator they need stability quality and
happiness of clients suppliers and
shareholders they're all
intertwined thank you so much for
sharing your thoughts on AI fintech and
the future of Telecom Finance so before
we wrap up where can list learn more
about lender wise and also connect with
you thank you so lender wise is a
fintech and paytech platform we provide
our services as risk mitigating Services
when it comes to choosing clients and to
monitoring and managing clients we
provide these Services directly to Banks
and to non-bank lenders allowing them to
deploy their existing portfolios in
better faster safer and cheaper ways
making sure that they have a safer way
of deploying their funds on the other
side we actually originate in the
Telecom space and actually in the
digital Finance space so we are funding
the digital economy we are providing
liquidity to Telecom operators we are
giving the ability to Telecom operators
to pay their suppliers and their
supplier networks in faster and safer
ways and in cheaper ways with respect to
other uh traditional International
banking rails we therefore have two very
unique features to us on one side we are
a technology provider on the other side
we are originating in the Telecom
receivable space and in the in the
entire digital
economy yeah perfect amazing much
appreciate L for giving all your Insight
so if you enjoyed this episode don't
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YouTube channel then VI shift and
Lawrence thank you again much
appreciated thank you very much for this
opportunity best gool