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What keeps us coming back to golf—and when does obsession cross into addiction?
In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, host Matt Considine and cohost Dr. Kevin Moore (a.k.a. “The Professor”) unpack the powerful connection between golf, dopamine, and the human brain. From obsession to balance, they explore why the game can feel so all-consuming—and how to build a healthier, more sustainable relationship with it.
The conversation dives into:
• How golf delivers both quick dopamine hits and deeper, more sustainable satisfaction
• The phases of falling in and out of love with the game—and why they matter
• How phones, social media, and constant stimulation impact focus and performance
• Practical ways to shift from addictive patterns to a more intentional golf experience
• The parallels between addiction, performance anxiety, and long-term enjoyment
• The role of golf course architecture in shaping emotional highs and lasting memories
• How to prioritize golf within a full life—without letting it take over
• The phases of falling in and out of love with the game—and why they matter
• How phones, social media, and constant stimulation impact focus and performance
• Practical ways to shift from addictive patterns to a more intentional golf experience
• The parallels between addiction, performance anxiety, and long-term enjoyment
• The role of golf course architecture in shaping emotional highs and lasting memories
• How to prioritize golf within a full life—without letting it take over
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
04:15 Phases of falling in and out of love with the game
10:05 Technology, distraction, and presence on the course
16:00 Building sustainable joy and balance
27:43 Brain science: exertion, reward, and dopamine
36:14 Breaking the quick-hit dopamine cycle
42:50 Architecture and designing meaningful golf experiences
55:45 Prioritizing what matters in your golf life
66:20 Final thoughts: finding balance in the game
What is NewClub?
04:15 Phases of falling in and out of love with the game
10:05 Technology, distraction, and presence on the course
16:00 Building sustainable joy and balance
27:43 Brain science: exertion, reward, and dopamine
36:14 Breaking the quick-hit dopamine cycle
42:50 Architecture and designing meaningful golf experiences
55:45 Prioritizing what matters in your golf life
66:20 Final thoughts: finding balance in the game
What is NewClub?
Founded in 2017, NewClub is the premier private golf society in the United States. It blends the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, as well as signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is revolutionizing golf membership, making the game more meaningful for those who love it.
What is The Bag Drop?
The Bag Drop features weekly stories from the culture, community, and characters shaping golf today. Produced by NewClub Golf Society, each episode blends authenticity and expert insights for passionate golfers at all levels. Special guests from clubs, courses, and every corner of the changing landscape join us for thoughtful, in‑depth discussions on all things golf.
Creators and Guests
Host
Matt Considine
Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.
Host
The Professor
NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.
What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?
Weekly stories from the communities and characters shaping the game. The Bag Drop blends thoughtful, honest perspectives of Matt Considine (Founder of NewClub) and Dr. Kevin Moore ("The Professor") with expert insights for passionate golfers at every level. Produced by NewClub and supported by our members, each episode welcomes guests from clubs, courses, and the lesser-known corners of the golf world for thoughtful discussions on all things golf and life.
Founded in 2017, NewClub is the first of its kind golf society in the United States; blending the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability more typical of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions, and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, along with signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is on a mission to revolutionize golf membership, making the game more meaningful for everyone who loves it.
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Website: https://www.newclub.golf
Matt Considine (00:03.99)
Welcome to the bag drop untold stories in golf. I'm your host, Matt Consine here with my fellow cohost, the professor, Dr. Kevin Moore. How are you this morning,
The Professor (00:14.863)
I'm doing all right this morning. We're here on spring break. I've been missing college football recently. Just this time of year, I always just miss those fall Saturdays because it's spring Saturdays are starting. So starting to feel like late fall. I got to ask you a question. Today's modern football game, do you miss the punt? Do you miss the art of punting?
Matt Considine (00:35.788)
I don't, the art of punting, I think it shouldn't be like a designated punter. I think you just gotta pick a guy from the lineup to kick a ball, like high school teams kind of did for a while and they did originally back in the game. But no, I don't miss the punt. Do you miss the punt?
The Professor (00:57.487)
I would have taken you as a big punting guy based on what you got going on coming up. it sometime, is it this evening or you're doing something, you're already bad mouthing, invited, you're invited guests. just bad mouth the king of the pun.
Matt Considine (01:04.2)
jeez. I see where you're going.
All right. What you're alluding to tonight, actually, I'll be introducing legendary Ohio State football coach Jim Tressel as I'm co-chairing a fundraiser for the Akron JCC. Yeah. Yeah. It's I did. I installed him already. You're right.
The Professor (01:28.243)
You already insulted him. We cannot release this before your fundraiser or he might not show up. I he won and I mean, just switch the field just every, every possession you need to switch the field and be positive. You know, they're starting behind where they're starting previously and you're starting ahead of where you started previously. And he was the king of it. Beat the Miami Hurricanes with that philosophy.
Matt Considine (01:33.784)
So what was his key strategy? Help me remember.
Matt Considine (01:51.202)
Was that a innovative thing at the time where people coaches not doing that or partially doing that? Yeah.
The Professor (01:55.887)
I doubt it. I definitely doubt that. I feel like that was a product of an NFL team that was there that they won the title and just happened to have a really good punter that year that helped them do that where they were definitely more in support and things done.
Matt Considine (02:10.232)
I mean, we both have fathers. They're massive Ohio State football fans. And we grew up around it as most people, most Ohioans do. Do you have a favorite Jim Trestle memory?
The Professor (02:22.543)
Oh, I winning that national title and beating Miami was amazing, but I'd have to just say just knowing you're going to beat Michigan. like, like I remember it was the 2005 game where they were down two possessions with, I don't know, seven minutes left, maybe even five minutes left. And we're all sitting there watching it and all of us were perfectly calm. Like, they're going to choice Smith was quarterback, Anthony Gonzalez, wide receiver. It's like, they're going to
Matt Considine (02:30.786)
Just knowing, yeah.
The Professor (02:50.383)
get this done like we had the ball. We're going to go down and score. We're going to get the ball back. We're going to score again. We're going to win this game. And they did that. And just that's what it seemed like. Trestle could do against Michigan. And it was so those are all my good memories going in that game and feeling feeling full confidence no matter what teams were on the field. Not not like that right now.
Matt Considine (03:01.154)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (03:06.22)
I know being a Youngstown, Ohio guy, versus he was probably the last, I don't know, there was this really localized, like the best players across the state would go to Ohio State under Jim Tressel. He was a really good recruiter, I've been told, but also just, he made sure that
You know, Cincinnati, Mueller had the pipeline that Ignatius had the pipeline that Cardinal Moody had the pipeline that Hoeven had. He made sure to have a presence out of high schools. know it's just this day and age. It's just expanded. Maybe I'll ask him some NIL stuff and how that's changed the geography of recruiting in a way, because I think that there was the stronghold of B. This is probably for all state teams of the early 2000s. You gotta own your state.
The Professor (03:37.155)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (03:56.387)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (04:03.246)
And now it's like, don't really have to, you gotta just get the same quality player from California, get the same quality camera from, yeah. Yeah, it's such a.
The Professor (04:08.515)
just get the best talent now, all right? Just get the best talent. Yeah, and his thoughts on the NIL would be interesting. Basically, everything that went down at Ohio State and in fact, some guys sold some stuff for a couple thousand bucks and some tattoos, you know, and that led to a firing and no show, you know, clause with him where now, you know, that would have been just fine. It would have figured out, you know, funneled, got that money and never would have to worry about that.
Matt Considine (04:33.08)
Well, we got a fun one today. We were talking about where did this come from? My goodness. I think there was a fun fact a long time ago you shared about dopamine that sent me down my own rabbit hole of slow dopamine versus the quick and easy stuff and just the science behind dopamine. And I listened to the Huberman podcast around it.
The Professor (04:45.688)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (05:01.656)
But as we go into the golf year, there's this element I always find of balance in the best golf seasons I've ever had, right? Finding the sweet spot of what is enough golf, not too much golf, what is enough competitive golf, what is enough casual golf, what is the spiritual healing golf at twilight and...
The Professor (05:13.636)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (05:29.588)
and all those things, it's like finding that sweet spot, you can actually put some science around it of like, do you do that without going overboard, letting it be, you and I both lived through obsessive years, or our addiction to the game probably created other issues. And as you and I were chatting about it last week, it did occur to me that there's a lot of people out there that are probably asking themselves the same thing is,
The Professor (05:43.822)
yeah.
Matt Considine (05:56.394)
Am I booking this trip this year? Am I signing up for more events? Am I giving up the game altogether? There's always this spectrum. And so we wanted to dive into that a little bit today. I think that's gonna be a fun one.
The Professor (06:10.541)
yeah, for all those out there, I went on research leave this coming fall, got that approved. So I'll be looking to travel and play, which has me thinking I need to make sure to get my research done because I'm on leave to actually focus on that. I am looking forward to, yeah, put some trips together, go see some people and, you know, move my physical body around the nation.
Matt Considine (06:23.746)
And we can talk about that in work golf.
Matt Considine (06:32.098)
Yeah, you know, how about a fact for us today? Anything you got?
The Professor (06:37.103)
I do I was gonna go down to dopamine serotonin endorphins and oxytocin sort of route, but well, maybe that'll come up during the talk but Shay Gilgis Alexander is that name ring about you? know you're you ballers no ball Yeah, do you see what it happened most recently? Last couple weeks at the release of this pod So
Matt Considine (06:50.222)
Heck yeah, man. Dude can hoop.
Matt Considine (06:58.38)
No, no I have not.
The Professor (07:00.917)
Most consecutive games with 20 plus points as of the recording now, Tide Wilt Chamberlain with 126 games at 20 consecutive or 20 plus consecutive points scored. Yeah, and so dug into the stats on this, know, the Tide Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt Chamberlain also did it 92 times on a separate occasion. All right, most consecutive games with 10 plus points. Who would you pick for that?
Matt Considine (07:13.526)
Whoa, that's wild.
Matt Considine (07:26.414)
LeBron.
The Professor (07:29.455)
LeBron, Biomile, 1297, Jordan, 866, Green-Metal, Jibar after that. Most consecutive games with 30 plus points.
Matt Considine (07:38.572)
Hmm I could see that being like a Russell Westbrook
The Professor (07:44.257)
good guess.
Yeah, I think former teammate of him, James Harden is in second with 32, Wilt Chamberlain is 65. Randomly, Joel Embiid comes in at fifth place in 22 games on that one. Now we get into the fun era. Maybe a little easier to guess, 40 plus points consecutively.
Matt Considine (07:51.65)
James Harden. Go Cap. Okay.
Matt Considine (07:59.815)
wow.
Matt Considine (08:05.87)
well then, mean, would have. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, well.
The Professor (08:08.835)
Take wilt, wilt, wilt, wilt, wilt are the first three different occasions. So we'll take him off. There's two other guys in the top five that have done it.
Matt Considine (08:15.896)
consecutive 40 point games, Jordan.
The Professor (08:18.809)
Jordan with nine tied with him, tied with him, Kobe. 50 plus games. First four, or Wilt Chamberlain did it four different occasions. I mean, he did it more than that, but seven, six, five, five in terms of streaks. I'm sure he had plenty of three streaks and two streaks, but go with the, who would you guess for the 50 plus point games consecutively in fifth place?
Matt Considine (08:21.038)
Kobe. Yeah.
50 plus
Matt Considine (08:43.95)
Let's go with, is it someone we haven't said yet? Oh, Jordan. Kareem? Kobe.
The Professor (08:48.717)
No, you said it. You definitely said it.
The Professor (08:53.263)
Kobe, Kobe, Kobe did it. And then the only guy that do 60 plus point games consecutively will done it four, three, two and two. So.
Matt Considine (09:02.382)
Wow. Well, I love this about SGA, best Canadian basketball player of all time, right? People.
The Professor (09:12.799)
Yeah, I think unquestionably like, yeah, when they're all said and done probably unquestionably.
Matt Considine (09:18.112)
Yeah, he's he's up there. Wonder who Steve Nash gets an honorable mention, probably former cap Tristan Thompson, maybe. But I there's a couple other guys who do. There's another Andrew Wiggins. He kind of.
The Professor (09:31.183)
Oh, Wiggins, yeah. mean, did we draft him first place? He was a former first place draft pick, right?
Matt Considine (09:37.24)
Yeah, I like dropping the Canadian knowledge. I know we got it some loyal Canadian listeners. North of the border, we got our captain down Atlanta and they're hurting after not winning the gold in Italy. So, give them some shout outs here.
The Professor (09:49.236)
Yeah, USA two, two, two for two on the ice with the USA. Now we got to turn our attention to the soccer to real football. We're going to need to now go conquer that sport.
Matt Considine (09:53.9)
Yeah. Hey, you know...
Matt Considine (10:00.577)
Yes, yeah. Couple episodes we were talking about shrinking things in the game, shrinking the ball, shrinking the club heads. You know, that took me to the mini driver and I wanted to shout out, I finally got my hands on the Titleist GT 280 and pretty sweet stuff, I'm telling you. I could see it.
The Professor (10:26.127)
It's in your bag?
Matt Considine (10:28.014)
It's not the bag yet, but I could see a world where this makes a lot of sense in the near future. Maybe not even just as a unconventional, you know, performance focused item for specific courses. I just think for the game, you know, that 280 CC head, it's got some horsepower, man. And it's multipurpose too. I hit it off the turf. I was indoors. I wasn't out on grass yet, but I was hitting off the turf and
The Professor (10:29.773)
Okay.
The Professor (10:56.92)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (10:57.826)
I'm telling you, this is a, it's longer than a three wood, but easier to control than my driver. And if, if you're looking for that edge over the competition this coming year, you know, off the tee, off the turf, definitely recommend going and checking out the GT 280 from our friends over at Titleist. All right, professor, let's get to it.
So where do want to start?
The Professor (11:26.152)
man.
Have you ever fallen out of love with the game and when did it occur for you?
Matt Considine (11:34.83)
Twice. I know very specifically.
The Professor (11:37.827)
That was a quick response. So still on the front of your memory.
Matt Considine (11:42.424)
Yeah, yeah, the most harsh you know very well it was college golf and being quite miserable, stressed out and putting too much emphasis on, I did not realize I was not my score. And my whole self identity was tied up in the pursuit of college golf, becoming a college golfer, getting there, performing surprisingly well off the bat and then never kind of reaching.
the potential mediocrity or worse and just being miserable when the golf wasn't well. So that was the run away from fall out of love of golf. leave the country, hide my clubs, try to find who you are type of 20 year old kid. And then...
The Professor (12:13.615)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (12:28.27)
Yeah.
The Professor (12:36.047)
avoid the avoidance, Just remove the negative feedback and just ignore it and go somewhere.
Matt Considine (12:44.044)
Yeah, yeah, and then the other was Kind of just after college so I got back into it but the the Really for other interests it wasn't as as severe as that but it was probably You know starting my professional career You know more later nights, but it but I wasn't enjoying golf
The Professor (12:54.297)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (13:11.988)
at that time because I think I was still searching a little bit for different things from the game as in achievement and success. And I was finding that other places, whether it be in business or chasing girls at the bar, whatever. And I didn't yet realize what golf was truly going to mean for me, likely for the rest of my life, and it was around community and so many other aspects.
but really using it as a vehicle to be with others, to share experiences, to travel, to have your people. And so that took me probably 2012 to 2014. And there was a specific group of guys that got me back to really fall back in love with golf by...
and really them taking the lead and them getting, being the first time golfers taking that dive. And I got to watch their joy. And so that brought me back into it and honestly started my path towards new club and the whole visit back to Scotland and doing that for my vocation. But yeah, those are the two times. What about you?
The Professor (14:31.395)
guess kind of similar definitely. Yeah, two, at least two times. the first time, same thing, college golf, just burnout, miserable, couldn't break 80, just, you know, not achieving the scores you want to achieve, not achieving the results you want to want to achieve, not wanting to pursue it.
Not wanting to grind at it and just sort of like that snowballs and you get worse and worse and worse because you just you're so frustrated. I'm going to be out there practicing and nothing feels right about anything. Then obviously led to my departure for the game for 10 years. You know, come play when you guys came out there is none of her spring break play lose 20 balls in the desert. Just hate my life. Not even want to be out there. Yeah, and that lasted till 2014 15 and then second time. You know you get.
I fell back in love with the game, got deep into it in a lot of different ways. And then you do something like start a couple golf businesses and all of a sudden it becomes work again. So the initial startup of the businesses, it's super exciting. You're working hard, you're loving it, you're just burning the candle at both ends. And then eventually it becomes work. And so when you're showing up to golf, it's like, I'm at work now. And you have that feeling.
And that drove me away from the game again, where it's just like, I don't want to be out there to play because when I'm out there, it just feels like work. I'm having to engage with it like it's work. And that's just not, you know, that's not giving me anything. That's not moving the needle for me. If anything, it's just attracting from my day. And I was no longer looking forward to go into the golf course, you know, eventually. And this is sort of, you know, what are we, four years ago or so, you four or five, six years ago, that started where it just was no longer exciting going out there.
my game was it slipping a little bit too because I wasn't being able to put the time in to keep it sharp. And yeah, I definitely fell in love with it where, you know, I'd go a month or two without playing and had no problem with that.
Matt Considine (16:30.626)
There's a good number of PGA professionals that listen to this podcast. I know many of them have reached out and I've talked to, they will relate to that at different junctures of their career, right? That they fall out of love with the game themselves because, it is a place of work and yeah, they can get away from probably the course or the, their quote unquote office, the driving range where they're given lessons of the clubhouse, where they're interacting with members in the pro shop.
or they're answering calls and stocking shelves, but it is hard to escape mentally and it does feel like work. I also feel like, because your two business, I've never experienced that doing what I do at New Club. And I wonder if your businesses, as well as the PJ Pros, it has so much to do with performance.
and getting people better and a little bit of score, right? It's more married to that result than say what I do because what I do at New Club is always about creating the opportunity for the experience. I don't care what everybody shoots, I don't care what I shoot, you know? It's like, even though competition's an element of it, do you think that plays into the psyche a little bit?
The Professor (17:48.912)
Oh, great question. I think I have to admit to yes, and kind of pulling back to curtains a little bit. I can point to a couple things where just like I started to have this negative relationship with golf again in the golf course itself. And they were somewhat unrelated, but I think they actually tie together and that first again is becoming work. So when I'm going to the golf course, no matter where and I'm seeing people and the business gets brought up and they just want to
ask about that, right? So if it's golf, how can I practice better? What should I be doing? You know, whatever, or, hey, you're doing analytics. What's that look like? What do you think about this whole, like, if I'm playing this, what should I that? And again, that's always a tension for me because I love helping people. But when I'm playing golf, I don't, and you taught me this, I don't want to talk work. Like, and that's my faculty job. That's my golf works.
Anything work related right like YouTube really taught me a valuable lesson of don't ask what do you do on the first t-box and hopefully it never comes up the entire round my best rounds with people especially new people Works not mentioned at all. We're just talking about life and golf in general So that definitely started happening more and more what's then it was like well, okay So I was associating as soon as I stepped out of the car in a golf parking lot
All right, work mode, know, mine's on. I got to be ready to talk about the business and talk about a way that's articulate and makes it sound good and doesn't make us look like we're a bunch of yahoos running a practice business. And then at the same time, to your point, to the question you brought up there, my game was slipping. And so then I started also feeling a little bit like a phony, right? Like, okay, I'm running an analytics business about playing golf well, and I'm running a golf blueprint, know, practice business about what do you need to do to practice to become a better golfer?
I'm going from a plus four to a plus three to a plus two to you know scratch to a plus one to scratch and I'm just Hovering there where it's like I I know what my ceiling is like I know I can be x good But I'm x minus two good and that just makes me feel like a phony like who am I to sit here and tell people how they should be playing And I wonder with PJ pros especially in some other ones how much of their lacquer golf is a little bit
The Professor (20:02.019)
driven by that where like they know their other ceiling, they know how good they can be. They're not that, but you're looked at as like, you're a good golfer. But internally, like, again, this is definitely an internal affective emotion of mine, where don't feel like a good golfer, right? Like, and yeah, people would be like, like, you're scratch, you're great. Like, I don't feel that way. And so that definitely was a driving factor for me of pushing me away from the game. And that certainly ties back to the college case to feeling like a phony. Yeah.
Matt Considine (20:17.294)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (20:30.762)
I think everybody can relate to that. know the PGA pros can relate to that. know anybody who, you know, has ever made progress and then backtracked all of us getting out in early spring and being like, Whoa, I'm not a six handicap. I'm not a 14 handicap. I'm a million handicaps. This is, this is awful. I know I did that combine recently and I got to see, you know, they categorize it and it's like, in these
three of five categories. I'm a five handicap. I am not right now. Yeah, you do. Your pride maybe takes a hit and your self image does. I know I've talked directly to some PGA guys who said, yeah, I'm so bad right now the way I'm playing that I just can't even play with our members because I don't want them to see the way I'm hitting it. And I was like,
The Professor (21:02.115)
Yeah.
The Professor (21:09.828)
yeah, that's your ego.
Matt Considine (21:29.378)
You know, don't we need to own that? But I didn't want to flip the question on when you fall in. When have you been addicted to the game? Are you currently addicted to the game of golf?
The Professor (21:40.176)
I am I'm back in the addiction and you know, we'll eventually get to how to balance that. I've been addicted to the game many times, certainly through childhood. I mean, I spent every day of the summer play 18 in the morning to hang out the pool, play 18 in the evening with you know, Chris Miller, Blake Sattler, Joe Bowers, Seth Taylor, David Gerber just buddies mind that we just we burn it up, right? And that's how we got good. And we were doing that every day all summer, you know.
be out there as much as possible. And then certainly when I got back into golf 2014, fell in a great group, Banks Robinson, Brad Davis, Chad Dominey, Lane Holt, shout out to that crew at the Georgia club that were just like you said, great guys that got me in love with it through just being with them and bonding with them. And then shout out to people like Andy Johnson, Rob Collins with Sweeten's Cove, Derek Duncan, some of those other early people in the
golf podcasts and just golf course architecture for the layman sort of world and just can start consuming golf course architecture. then I mean what I did in probably 2018 was not healthy at all. By the time it was awesome where I think I played 72 new golf courses in 2018, know, 190 rounds of golf, whatever it was, where I was full on addict, right? Like just like.
Where can I go play golf next? Like, okay, I'm traveling here for work. I'm going to get around in there at six in the morning before I have to go, you know, give this talk here and then do this and do that. Um, you know, and I ran that 2018, 19, you know, with a number of new courses I played those two years was, but it was, it was huge. And that was, yeah, I think that there was definitely an addiction to it. Like it was like get done with the one and I'd like, where am I going next? Like, okay, what do need to set up next month? Next month? I got these open dates. Where can I go? What can I do? You know, how am I going to do this? Um,
Yeah, so definitely those two phases. And I'm back in that phase a little bit right now where it's like concy on my mind, like, who am I playing with this year? And where am I playing is sort of always in the back of my mind, no matter what what day of the week it is.
Matt Considine (23:46.286)
Yeah, I mean, and we've heard this so much throughout golf. What a great addiction to have. I mean, I think we both know good friends as well as fellow members of the places we belong to that have battled serious substance issues and addiction in that regard.
the behavior of being addicted to golf and And getting yourself up early and keep yourself in enough shape To walk in 18 holes to being outside to being with people like it doesn't have There's still consequences. There's still things that can go wrong with an addiction to golf for sure and I've seen that Plenty of times as well But man in the in the big scheme of other things that you can
be quote unquote addicted to, golf's a pretty good one. And I think that's why there's, it's history has always been intertwined a bit with that. You know, you go back to the very beginning, there was booze and drinking and they used it as a way to curb some of that for the people that they knew that it was an issue for. So I think there's definitely a parallel there. I do think there is though,
The Professor (25:11.203)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (25:16.93)
What's the difference between obsession and addiction? Because I think there's aspects of golf that I have consistently been obsessed with. Whether it's a period of being a gear head and obsessing over different settings and equipment or being obsessed over architecture and reading every single book you can about a specific designer or golf course.
The Professor (25:19.215)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (25:45.63)
or golf history that you and I both shared of an obsession over, you the facts of the past and find those things. But I've never been like this, I never had a compulsion to pick up those things or to read more. just obsess over it. So like you said, throughout the week, I think about it, but there's no compulsive. The only thing I've been truly addicted to, I think, is the behavior and sensation of swinging and hitting a golf.
The Professor (25:49.615)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (26:15.566)
And I actually, shortly after that second falling in love with golf and leading up to founding New Club in 2017 and doing that ever since, I think the addiction did hit an all-time high where I got buddies that brought me back into it. now saw the healthy balance of this isn't just an individual game. This is a communal game. It always was.
and it's about being with people. So I made my plane, but there were nights, I I picked an apartment, Kevin, in the city of Chicago, because out my back door, it was a high-rise on Lakeshore Drive, was diversity driving range. And there would be nights where I would just crave just going, I'm just gonna hit a bucket, I'm just gonna hit a bucket. And I'd hit like three or four buckets. I mean, I think I felt like Moe Norman at the time. I wasn't hitting it like Moe, but I felt like I could just hit balls.
all day because I was craving whatever that is. And this is why your dopamine facts and where I wanted to take this. Like it didn't really register with me when you shared that there's a huge element of what I get out of golf related to the release of dopamine. And I do think it's healthy golf, maybe not beaten four buckets of balls till midnight when I got to get up at 6 a.m. the next day, but
there is that slow release we can get from, slow release of dopamine we can get from golf that we certainly don't get from our cell phones. We certainly don't get from video games, from pornography, from all these awful things that people get addicted to. And golf is a healthier balance of that. So maybe give me more on what you've researched there and what is actually happening in our brains.
The Professor (28:06.447)
Yes. So I'm going to kick this back to you, but let's tease these apart. if we, that's okay. Let's think broadly about dopamine and this is going to be very 10,000 foot view of it. You've got kind of four main hormones. That's dopamine, serotonin, endorphins and oxytocin. Those are the four main hormones and there's other sub hormones and we can get real nitty gritty, but take those as the main four. All of them are important. All of them act critically for us functioning as humans and what we do. So not.
None of them are good or bad inherently. They're good in balance and when in balance and working right, they make us be our best selves. So let's just lay that on the table and make sure nobody's interpreting, oh, dopamine is good. Oh, dopamine is bad. No, it's neither. It's like, how does this work? So we could think about this in terms of, you brought this idea of slow process sort of thing versus like a quick hit would be a great just way to like create a dichotomy between the two. So
something that's like a slow reward versus bam, it hits me and I'm good. I got a reward right away. I got to get more of it. Something came back you because I knew you've thought about this even more, definitely more than me in terms of your personal life, your golf life. And you've brought up rewards a lot. What's rewarding to me? know, what makes me fall in love with it? Could you talk a little bit how you differentiate between in the context of golf, these kind of slow dopamine spikes and hits versus this sort of long release that you're talking about in the way
you see those playing out in the golf world.
Matt Considine (29:36.152)
Yeah, I think the...
There's, that's a really good question. There's the pursuit of it that I see play out for me and what that means in the cheap stuff, the slow dope means like your pursuit and your motivation is almost subconscious in a way where it's like if I open Instagram and I scroll for 20 seconds, boom, boom, boom, boom, I feel that, you know.
Everyone kind of knows the dopamine feeling and a glass of wine at the end of a day, know, quick pour and that. But for golf, the motivation is deeper. I got to plan ahead. I got to get good sleep. If I'm going to play early, I got to reach out to my buddies or look what's happening in the new club app. Get, you know, get a get on it like that. That pursuit creates better behaviors in my mind for me.
and frankly keeps me out of trouble from maybe the deep or the cheap dopamine releases. And then when I actually get it, like the, I guess the core difference to answer your question is that it takes effort. It takes effort when I'm now at the golf course and I gotta put forth mental effort and physical effort and I gotta stretch.
and I gotta try to put myself in these challenging situations, but then when I overcome them is where the release occurs, I think. And it's like, I just delayed, so if you think about that, it's Wednesday and I am craving dopamine, but instead of opening.
The Professor (31:20.793)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (31:35.22)
Instagram, I opened new club app, I booked something for Saturday. I have the anticipation of Saturday and then Saturday finally comes and then I have to expend this energy and this effort. But then I get this release over four or five hours plus the feeling, you know how many people say like, my wife likes me play cause she knows I'm better after golf. think the better after golf is you're still in that state.
The Professor (31:58.137)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (32:06.422)
of whatever that is, like arousal, is it arousal professor? You know the terms better than me, but you're in a better place because you've just given yourself that four or five hours of that slow release I'm trying to explain of challenging situations, a little bit of adversity, a little bit of anxiety, but bam, you keep doing it, you keep doing it, you keep doing it. Whether it's successful or not too, I should.
The Professor (32:08.953)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (32:32.394)
say, like it feels better to make birdie versus double, but even if I make double, I'm getting that feeling.
The Professor (32:42.317)
Yeah, absolutely. So let's expand on that terms of now a little bit deeper into the brain science of that, you're hitting on. I'll go quickly into the other hormones here. So you have endorphins. Those are definitely going to occur during to mass pain or stress are going to happen during physical exertion. They also trigger the release of dopamine, getting euphoria. So that's runner's high, actually. So if you push really hard as a runner high,
Matt Considine (33:07.214)
There you go.
The Professor (33:08.857)
You get enough endorphins going on that triggers enough dopamine that you get a feeling of euphoria. all right, you got oxytocin. So this is our love hormone, intimacy or social connection. Now this stimulates, yep, this stimulates dopamine pathways. So you get a reward from that. Pleasurable feeling promotes continued social interaction. that's one of the primary, but again, the oxytocin is tied to dopamine. It stimulates the dopamine pathways. Notice again, the beginning,
Matt Considine (33:22.914)
Babies. Babies.
The Professor (33:38.992)
in terms of endorphins, they trigger the release of dopamine. Serotonin, mood stabilizer when levels are low, that's when you hit anxiety, healthy levels allow dopamine endorphins to function effectively. So having the proper amount of serotonin lets endorphins and dopamine actually do what they're supposed to do in terms of promoting happiness. But you need that aspect of serotonin to be a stabilizer, right? It's actually kind of an anti-action sort of hormone saying, no, I don't need to do that. Or I can let you have inhibition, right?
So if you think about what you brought up there, we could make this parallel in golf. We all know the golfer that needs to gamble heavy on every hole, right? And they need to be pounding alcohol and their mood fluctuates with every shot they hit. They make that birdie like, yeah, and then it's moving on, right? Or, you know, and I've probably been in this phase of my life, the sort of bucket chase, you know, the bucket or the list chaser, right? The bucket list person where it's like, I played there and they're automatically like, I got to go on the next one. What's the next one? Right? Like they forget about it immediately. So you can think of those as kind of just
quick hit dopamine, right? Just focusing on those things where what you brought up there, if you think about that whole day, like, I'm going to play this weekend, I'm going play with my buddies, I got this anticipation, you you're thinking about the process of stretching, of working out, of practicing. Hey, we're going have a good match. I'm going to play my best. I'm going go through my thought process on every shot. I'm going really commit to it. Hey, I'm going to get my little hits of sadness and elation after each shot. Certainly when I make that pun 18th hole, I'm going to celebrate. But all those are also within the context of
everything else you're doing, right? So it's again, not that dopamine's bad or even that a quick hit is bad. It's that you're also, all these other things are occurring. So your hormones are getting produced and getting to interact in appropriate ways where they balance each other out and help you balance all that versus if you're just in full moon dopamine quick hit, this messes you up so bad because it throws your hormones out of whack and it changes your baselines on everything else requiring more dopamine to get.
a similar feeling, right? This is why if you go to the same, your favorite breakfast spot in the world, right? Wally Waffle or whatever it is, right? Waffle House. When you go every day, five days in a row, that fifth day doesn't feel anything like the first day, right? Or you have this great meal in this new city and you're like, that's the best place ever and you go back again, not quite as good. That's because kind of your baselines are changing with respect to that. And this is what cocaine does, right? Cocaine just completely throws off your dopamine baseline and what happens there. And that's why the crash...
The Professor (36:04.751)
is so hard with it and you never reach that. It sets a new baseline. You can never reach that first high of cocaine because of what happens to your system there. So perfect comparison in golf. When you think about how you've consumed golf during your love or hatred periods, I'd argue sometimes our hatred periods did stem from a little bit of an addiction period where we got so entrenched into it, at least me, where like over time it turned into more quick dopamine hits.
Matt Considine (36:14.882)
Wow.
The Professor (36:34.351)
Right. And like needing that to get the reward system going and then kept leaning into that. And then eventually got to where this isn't working. I'm not enjoying this anymore versus when it's like, no, like I'm going to certainly be obsessive with it, but I'm going to make sure the way I'm consuming it is in a more balanced way. Going about process. Like I'm not planning too many trips and just moving on to the next one that I'm really sitting in the trip, enjoying it, getting home, letting that
drop happen when I get home, right? Like anytime you return from a trip, you have a dopamine crash. Letting that happen, sitting within that, letting myself balance out versus like, I got home on Monday. I'll just drive to Atlanta and play this new course on Wednesday, right? And get that feeling back, right? So really sitting in that, I think is a way to think about the balance between these.
Matt Considine (37:21.25)
That's a, you just reminded me of a third time that I fell out of it. That was when I started playing for money and a lot of it. Yeah. And it's, it's funny cause I didn't, what you described about that crash was so fricking true where because I was getting and drinking, should say gambling and drinking were kind of one in the same. And
The Professor (37:33.133)
I remember that phase of Matt Constine golf. I do remember that.
Matt Considine (37:52.076)
because I was getting such hits of the cheap dopamine and the short term stuff while on the course and you have to have more bets and you know, it really is the company you keep. I wasn't that type of golfer prior, but I got kind of thrusted into a world where that was the norm and I learned a lot about human nature and myself and I'm kind of grateful for that period of time.
But I never could play and wanted to play the day after those rounds. I was spent, was crashing and I didn't ever really even framed it that way. I just figured that, you know, I didn't want to play golf. But there was one instance in particular I'm now thinking of where I went out by myself a day after two days of drinking and gambling.
The Professor (38:28.333)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (38:48.526)
going out and just saying, you know what, I didn't play great and I wanna, could sense I was falling out of love with it. was like, why don't you just go play a quick round? I went out and walked off on seven.
And so I...
The Professor (39:05.369)
What was the where was the mind at when you walked off?
Matt Considine (39:07.434)
I can't even remember, but I just, that's so rare for me. I had the time. I didn't have to be anywhere. I walked off on seven. I didn't want to see a golf shot. So that is, that's interesting to me. Cause even today, I, there's good friends of mine who still want action, who can enjoy some beers on the golf course. I'm not saying that I don't think either of us are saying that that's not doable. Yeah. But since I've kind of made that policy as I
The Professor (39:27.373)
No, yeah, have, consume golf how you want to. mean, end of day.
Matt Considine (39:36.302)
I don't drink on the golf course anymore. I have a cleansing ale after the round as my uncle calls it, where you swap some stories and put a cap on the day. don't play for money. If I do, it's never gonna be more than 20 bucks. That's what I tell every member of a new club. I'll play, but we're gonna cap it at 20. So if you wanna play five, five, five, or you wanna play $10 closeout, you tell me, but I'm not gonna play for more than 20. And what that's done for me, I think is almost...
The Professor (39:56.697)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (40:06.2)
put guardrails up of what you're describing around that balance and that I don't have, I don't create a cliff for myself, right? To get that excitement, to get that dopamine hit, but then to get the crash as well. But how, that took me putting up those guardrails. I don't know another way, how do you shift, you know, if you're somebody that's living in that world and actually thinking, man, maybe I would love this.
The Professor (40:16.033)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (40:34.126)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (40:34.504)
slower dopamine release world, how do you get yourself to shift to it?
The Professor (40:38.361)
Yeah, I think.
You have to want the shift. And what I mean by that, I think I've always thought about this perspective. know, some people will, going back to the point, enjoy golf how you want to enjoy it. Any listener out there, enjoy it how you want to enjoy it. As long as you're not disrespecting the course and the other people on the course and employees, enjoy it. I think it does clarify the distinction. There's people, you know, on Twitter, just in the golf world. Do you love golf?
or you just playing golf, right? Something, and I think that's a distinction there. Where if golf is your outlet to get some quick dopamine hits, if that's your gambling, drinking, hanging out with buddies, and that's why you're consuming the game, then you don't need to shift, right? Like if that's your purpose. But if you wanna explore the game for the game's sake, then that's where the distinction happens. And if that's what you wanna do, like if you get done and you're like,
Okay, I did enjoy the gambling and drinking part, but you I think I just love this game for what it is. I think you should test that and see then what your experience with the game is, the social connection of it, your experience with the grounds of the game, everything else that's wonderful about the game outside of, you know, the other things you might do within it. Just give it a try. Just say, you know, you know what? Yeah, I'm just going to play for $5 a day or a dollar, you know, because I do that in the same way like you, Matt, like I don't want to play for any more than 20.
prefer and have learned this through a of the Scots, like you just don't play for money. Like you play for maybe a pint after the thing and it's about the match and you talk about the shots that were done and it's all those things. It's not like, oh, that triple press on 18, you know, and the hammer was thrown down. It's like, no, what was the shot done? you know, that's bond over that. I would just say, tell people like, give that a try. just, you know, try to not drink. It's gonna be an adjustment because you have to learn what is that feel like to play in the games and
The Professor (42:33.935)
And maybe just put yourself in some groups that that's how they consume it and just see if you like it or not. I it doesn't have to be your thing. But maybe, you know, it just gives you a different view on the game and the way people look at it. Yeah, just give it a shot.
Matt Considine (42:48.322)
Yeah. There is a, a term I remember from the research you sent me on this dopamine stacking, where you're just stacking multiple sources of pleasure on top of each other. Right. And, and I think I was doing that trying to play scotch games and, and drinking on the while playing and getting the normal stuff that we're talking about, you know, hitting over ponds and bunkers.
getting up and down from short side, like you're just stacking a bunch of it. And I think there's ways to remove that and focus on the thing that is fundamental to all of it, which is the game and the grounds and the basis of that. And one way that I've done that competitively, because competition is stacking, right? You're taking just hitting the shots to making it a matter. But one way that I've...
I always do push for this on a first tee now is my preference is to always have one big match. And all of us will be focused on that one match. That's not a lot of people's preference. Most people want more action. Most people want, all right, we'll do 666 so we can flip pars or, know, they just, and I think that stems from now that I think about it, just modern culture.
The Professor (43:57.134)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (44:16.374)
and how we've been trained to seek that immediacy by our social media or devices or all of it, right? And I think that's a really interesting way to, like when I insist on that one match and the only consolation I like to make here is I'll do a closeout, meaning if you close me out on 15, well, we got four holes to go on a new match, I can win back my money.
The Professor (44:16.751)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (44:45.462)
at half or whatever. But when I do that, let's just say it's the single match, you have almost this moment that occurs if it was on 15 or 16. And then there's the, not the crash, but kind of the come down from your shared moment there of this match that had some significance. And it actually is just like a healthier end to a round of golf.
The Professor (45:13.113)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (45:13.806)
We talk about this in architecture, don't we? About how there's a crescendo that happens a lot of times not on 18. So some places do, they insist on 18th signature holes and things of that nature. But really, isn't it kind of the more natural course of things to have an earlier 12, 13, 14, whoa, wow, oh my gosh, and there's a ton of stimulation, maybe a little bit less down the stretch. I think that to me,
That's one way that I've shifted this approach. And subconsciously, before I knew anything about dopamine, fast dopamine, slow dopamine, whatever, I was already doing this type of stuff because I could just see it would look like a more healthy balance of what your golf life can be.
The Professor (45:49.112)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (46:00.9)
Yeah, and think pulling on that, sort of match narrative and the way the emotions flow over it and of course driving dopamine and other hormonal responses. A way to think about that, and this is often in addiction narratives, they talk about like, okay, with an addiction, like your highs are super high, unquestionably, but your lows are incredibly low. And over time, your baselines get messed up and it's harder to get your highs and your lows are even drastically low. And this leads to anxiety because it just throws your whole
nervous system out of whack, your whole brain out of whack, this sort of roller coaster that you're on and then what that's doing in terms of how the highs can be and then lows get worse. Versus, and a lot of people that are recovering addicts talk about this, like, yeah, my highs might not be as high, but my lows are essentially gone. And my lows are very sustainable. Like I'm still pleasurable. I still feel good. But like you're, yeah, you're a little, feel a little depressed or whatever. You're sad because of
true affective reasons, but I can handle them. But then my baseline is always good. So you think about that in a match rather than a match being these super highs and lows like, no, I'm feeling good this whole match. And you add a few lows because I missed a three footer, but I moved on. I'm already in good spirits on the next hole. And hey, I won. It might not feel as high as like that one where you're gambling for 10 grand and know you're 20 drinks in.
all jazz up because all the chemicals going on your body, you still get high. But you're more balanced and right then you come, you know, quickly after that when you're sitting in the grill room, you're more just present with yourself present with the situation than still riding that high. just self regulation your body be able to regulate all the hormonal responses and the affective responses that come along with it. Like that's how you train your body to do that by putting yourself in those situations. And that takes time. And if as long as you do it over time, you get to that place where like
man, I tell you what, I feel pretty darn good 24 hours a day now because I'm doing these things in a way I know my body can handle well and process.
Matt Considine (48:08.171)
Have you ever noticed either yourself or others that you're playing with that when phones are a part of the day, so if people got phones in their pocket, phones in the cart, do you ever see any change in people or yourself?
The Professor (48:16.877)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (48:24.809)
100%. Like, and I've definitely been attuned to this. I'll apologize to Jeff Fages at GSGA. I know we had a Twitter spat way back when when they went to live scoring through Golf Genius and they were acquiring groups on the phone and I chirped at it and said, this is, this is not good. Like you cannot make me as a player do this because it just changes how my brain works. Just picking up the phone triggers a neurological response that will change who I am on the golf course and my ability to handle stress, especially as I don't have that irrational confidence, right?
going back to the very beginning of this episode, I don't have that. don't benefit. I wish I had that for competitive golf. I don't. So if my brain gets changed by me pulling up the phone and I'm getting pulled out of like trying to be in a meditative state and whatever, I'm probably not going to play well. And I've so I've monitored this watching the guys I play with and all that. You're fundamentally, your brain is operating differently when the phone's not around. This is unquestionably, we know this through science because what the phone does now in terms of
the pathways you're establishing by your regular use of the phone through text messaging, through social media, email, your brain knows when I pick up the phone, I have to be ready to engage in these things that need to be done responsibly quickly. The brain is firing up to do that. It is a different experience. I would argue it definitely detracts from being present with the people that you're with, the golf course that you're on, the day that you're there, and the brain research would show that.
look and think about your how your brain's actually operating would would bear that out.
Matt Considine (49:55.272)
I used to be really good, partially thanks to you and just having that influence of, let's put the phone away. Let's figure out a way to enjoy the game, two hours and nine holes or four hours and five hours, whatever it is, let's put them away. Reality of, you know, small business owners, there are days I just gotta be next to the phone or family stuff. got kids like.
The Professor (50:16.559)
Yeah, you have kids.
Matt Considine (50:21.4)
They're sick every other day, one of the three of them, and I gotta be next to my phone, but I do, and I've noticed this in my workouts lately. I'm getting back into a better routine and I'm getting into the gym, but as soon as I make that deviation to whatever it is on the phone, I think there is like a quick hit and it puts you in that state ready to fight or something. And the flow of my workout,
is different as soon as I go back to it. My mind is now almost like, it's a couple different things actually. It's searching maybe for a shorter hit, because like the endorphins are going, you're working out, that's true, but it might be looking for a shortcut. And then also my mind starts to shift to the result of being done.
The Professor (50:51.119)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (51:06.126)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (51:17.943)
Yeah, I have this issue too.
Matt Considine (51:18.614)
And when I I left my phone in the locker, I'm more just in the flow of the process of doing it and enjoy. I actually enjoy it more. And so I have a bunch of settings on my phone now, because, again, I live in that state where it probably needs to be near me if different emergencies, either work or family. But. It does it can't inundate in.
and frankly hijack the process of what you're doing. And I see that on the golf course too. Even I can actually tie now some examples to being on that golf course, pulling out my phone and feeling that the desire to like hit driver on a hole that's probably not a driver. Like, you know me, I'm definitely more of an aggressive player. I try to push the envelope. I have irrational confidence.
The Professor (51:51.151)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (52:18.039)
And there is an element, and maybe this is coming with age of...
try to suppress some of those feelings and, you know, maybe hit the, just be bored. Like part of the reason I send driver or I go for graces, like I'm looking for excitement. And maybe, maybe I need to be a little bit more boring. I was told directly by Mark Wilson, five time PGA Tour winner. He goes, you're not boring enough. He's like, you got some game dude, but you are not boring. And I was like, what do you mean boring? He's like, great golfers are boring. I'm sorry.
The Professor (52:37.313)
Yeah. Yeah.
The Professor (52:50.41)
born enough.
That's right. Good golf is exciting. Great golf is boring.
Matt Considine (52:54.806)
And I was like, yeah, yeah. So I'm connecting that whole piece to what you're saying here is that it's okay to be bored. It's okay to not seek the constant stimulation, but it's hard when our phones are around. It's hard when the rest of the world, we live in a constant state now of that stimulation.
The Professor (53:18.891)
Yeah, you got to do the Alfie Solomon thing and just like eyes shut for 30 minutes in silence, right? Like just try in all seriousness and let's go back to working out real quick. How often when you have your phone on you during a workout, do you end up cutting your workout short?
Matt Considine (53:33.358)
Oh, yeah. Oh, man, probably 50 % of the time.
The Professor (53:37.848)
Yeah, I this huge issue. Sometimes I struggle with my mind definitely is going on the next thing a lot of times. And if I'm working out my phones around, if I look at it, look at a text or whatever, I do not have email on my phone anymore. But if I look at a text and it like brings up something, if it's new club or just golf, it's like, or this someone asked about a golf course somewhere. Like I'm to cut my sets short and I'm going to go shower up and move in. Right. Or I'm just going to keep seeing the time or something's going to make me cut everything short. So this is going to motivate me. So
I would suggest to everyone, try an hour without your phone, like nowhere near you, some point multiple days in a row. If that's going for a walk and leaving it at home. If that's a golf course, I historically leave my phone in my locker when I play golf now. Or workout I used to use in a locker and I haven't recently, I'm thinking you reminded me I've been cutting my workout short. I need to leave the phone in the locker for that exact reason. Just try to...
Do something for an hour, even if it's just sitting on the couch with the phone nowhere near you. And not even, it can't even be in the same room. They've shown, there's been some recent research out on this that if it's visible or within like a certain proximity of you, your brain still is getting hijacked a little bit. It needs to be like on a different level of your house, out in your car locked, in a lock box that's timed to something and just see, just try it. Just see how you feel, how often you think about reaching for the phone or going to it. It's a fun exercise.
Matt Considine (55:05.632)
I just moved. Does three feet count? I just went from the nightstand next to my bed to a new stand three feet away. Does that count?
The Professor (55:14.967)
It's better. is better if you can't just sit there wake up and especially middle night and reach for it.
Matt Considine (55:19.67)
Yeah, yeah. Man, this is very illuminating, professor. Let's land this plane. Looking forward, I think the thing we didn't talk about is like the balance of our schedule, like every golfer, right? What do you think is the optimal balance in your experience to hit this middle ground, right? Is it like...
The Professor (55:32.961)
Yeah.
The Professor (55:41.774)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (55:45.166)
I guess the question is how much golf is too much golf? What type of golf do you try to sprinkle in? And what do you think makes for a great golf season? Cause I, I'm, literally looking at this myself. I know you are too. I'm sure everybody listening is like, all right, how many trips are we going to book? How many competitions are we going to put on this calendar? Um, am I going to play in a league? Am I going to play regular Saturday morning with the boys like
The Professor (55:53.453)
Yeah.
The Professor (56:09.569)
Yeah, that's a tough one. Balance is a false construct, right? We never achieve balance. It's always a pursuit, much like happiness. You don't achieve happiness. You just always try to pursue happiness. And so I always, what's helped, I'll just say what's helped me in this case. And this is definitely informed by the research out there on it and different mechanisms by which to think about balance and always pursuing. And you shared me a book one time like,
think it was Design Your Life, you shared me that book. The One Thing was another book you shared with me a long time ago that always have been informative for me and then followed up by the last decade of my life on these other things. it's identifying your priorities. So what are the things that are important in your life right now? What are the things you want to achieve, you want to contribute to, you want to be intentional with, and always checking in on those. So for me, it's always like, you know, my wife, Claire, that's always going to be probably priority number one.
So I want to make sure I'm being intentional and present with that. I've learned being very focused at my UGA work and doing a few things really, really well. Need to be intentional and focused there. Golf, like experiencing some new courses and playing with people I love. Those are the things that are rewarded. So then when I look at thinking of my schedule, I'm just always checking in sort of every month and reflecting if it's on Sundays or whatever, reflecting on like...
Am I doing these things right? Do I feel good about what's occurred in the last, you know, one week, one month, three months, six months? Okay, moving forward, am I happy? So it's always looking at like kind of the small scale in large scale across those things and then making adjustments, which means, you know, in 2024, we blew it out in September, right? We went to the town match. We played 11 days over there. I jumped on a plane and went to Sandhills for seven days, like two days, you know.
a week later, then I played in Sweetens Cove member again, just, and I got done with that, man, I was happy. was a lot of dopamine releases going on then. But looking at other things, I'm like, I feel some anxiety right now. And I realized that's because these other areas were suffering a little bit. So then it's like shifting it, right? So shifting it, okay, I'm back to where I'm feeling good. But then opportunities come up, take advantage of opportunities and just acknowledge like, don't fall into the trap of, okay, I stacked a few opportunities.
Matt Considine (58:14.627)
Yeah.
The Professor (58:28.897)
I now feel a little anxious because I need to stack more. No, it's like you're probably actually overdone it and just look across your life and make sure you're putting in, putting in effort and recreating how you put in that effort into those places. Cause that's also a huge part of our reward system is not just to keep doing what you're doing, but like shifting how you're, what you're doing. So you're putting a new effort in new places and that actually releases dopamine and helps with serotonin, these sort of new experiences, not new as a new golf course, but
New is in like, I'm going focus on my wife. I'm going to try this new thing with her or I'm going work. I'm going to try this new project. Those are important things to do.
Matt Considine (59:05.453)
Yeah, yeah, leaving a little space for the new stuff. As it pertains to the the golf life I was reading, I know, this is just coming to me of a recent book I was gifted. It was the Five Types of Wealth. And I don't have the author. Bloom, think, is his name. But there he outlines what the five new types of wealth are. It's your time. It's social. It's mental.
The Professor (59:11.842)
always.
The Professor (59:22.959)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (59:35.018)
It's physical and it's it's financial and i've heard, you know similar categories when people talk about designing your life for putting things into buckets usually spiritualities in there, you know, on those types of things, but I just because i'm i'm Dabbling in this book a little bit and i'm thinking about His five I think it's true to this conversation as well, which is like In engulf you can give yourself
I think it's a unique element of golf actually is that you can utilize golf to build that wealth in each of those categories, right? When you think about time, you gotta structure your world and your calendar to give yourself the time to play golf, but not too much time to play golf because we know that can take away from those other buckets and finding your balance. And for there, for me, it's kind of funny. It's like,
The Professor (01:00:12.942)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:00:25.336)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (01:00:31.214)
It'll evolve through life. You know, if you're a retiree and your kids are grown or your I was a hundred round guy at one point and I could be it was not an issue. Well, I can't be now and I and I also dipped below 30 and that was Not good for me. I I needed to play more golf and so, you in the time category it's always like Right now I'm in a firmly 40 to 50 rounds a year
The Professor (01:00:41.016)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:00:48.706)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:01:00.254)
is where I'm gonna be and I'll be very happy and content and able to, you know, fill the buckets on all these. Social though, where I was going with this one, the social bucket is so critical, I think, for your golf and there's different ways to achieve it and I do like your thought of leaving room. The regularity, almost like brushing your teeth or doing something that's good for you, the regularity of having your people.
The Professor (01:01:01.838)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:01:30.447)
Mm.
Matt Considine (01:01:30.56)
a group to play with, join the league, join the club, join the team. that, that is something, there's something very powerful there. And you start to realize like, yeah, golf is the motivator to get you to do it. But really deeper down the thing that you needed was to consistently have a group of people that you're talking with.
The Professor (01:01:35.051)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:01:44.015)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (01:01:59.158)
And so for me, that's been Monday nights in my beer league. It's been perfect for that. I think everybody needs that regularity, even if it's monthly, bi-weekly, weekly's great, but somehow that has to be a part of your mix where there's the social element of golf, like a happy golf life. I think, I'm just, go ahead.
The Professor (01:01:59.214)
Yeah.
The Professor (01:02:18.957)
Yeah. I was gonna say I'm the happiest when I have my 8 a.m. do sweeping with my boys, Michael Earl, Will Divers and Kevin Kicklider. When I'm doing that every Saturday, that's when my golf is the happiest.
Matt Considine (01:02:32.024)
There it is, man. And then still leaving room for, because an element of social is also, and this took, I think this took me a long time. I think it takes a lot of people, men especially, in their 30s and 40s, a long time to figure out is that you always have space for more friendships, for more relationships. You need to make room. if like, and this is a story I've heard time and time again from new club members, not to plug.
The the the membership, but it's true is so many guys have been like man I got invited to go with a crew of new club members or I or I booked the band in Founders Cup or the San Valley Summer Medal and I didn't know anybody and I was terrified about doing that but then it was like just the thing they needed because they they find out that these people that Come from different walks of life, but they all love golf the same way and that you're not alone
Yeah, you're never alone in golf, I think is where I'm going with this point. And so that that's a fascinating part of it too, is that leave the door open to meet new people and play play with new people in some fashion. And, and then I guess the last couple like physical for me, I do not want to ever work out or even even go from a for a walk. I wish I was just I know you went for a walk with your dog this morning. My poor dog.
I don't like enjoy just going out for walks as much anymore. So golf forces me to be mobile and physical and, that is obviously very beneficial. And then on financial wealth, I, there's always this tie between business and golf. And I think that's, if that had, that also had a lot to do with this phase where I fell out with it was, which was as a, you know, scratch golfer, I was expected to go.
The Professor (01:04:05.369)
Uh-huh.
Matt Considine (01:04:27.822)
close deals and use it for the golf course. I just warn everybody of that. I think that is a, is a, it only ends in one way, I think. And if when you take, you know, unless you truly don't enjoy these other elements of the game we're talking about, and it is a way to entertain clients and close deals, I just don't see it being additive. And the way it's additive,
is that you're together and you're building a real relationship that could benefit everybody financially. It's a very affluent game. There's gonna be partnerships that forge regardless, but what I hate seeing is the guys and gals that put it ahead of all the others and golf for them becomes the primary focus. I hear this quite frequently with, my wife.
The Professor (01:05:04.313)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (01:05:25.986)
doesn't want me playing golf. I only can play golf if it's, you know, closing deals and bringing in more money. Like that's the reason they gave their, hey, honey, I got to play on, on Saturday morning with Paul because Paul owns XYZ and we got to make that happen. Like that to me becomes very slippery and, also just such a contentious relationship between work and family and golf and all this other stuff. It's like, no, make it about
The Professor (01:05:32.057)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:05:46.2)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (01:05:54.958)
these other things first and foremost, and then let the financial wealth come from it. anyways, that was my throughout our whole conversation. I was thinking about this book that I'm reading and how the golf in this way fits into it. That's great. Thank you, Professor. That was very insightful, as always deeper than than our first couple episodes of the year. But
The Professor (01:05:58.061)
Yeah, I them.
Matt Considine (01:06:20.864)
in a good way, in a good time, I think, when a lot of us are debating what our years gonna look like.
The Professor (01:06:24.109)
Yeah, especially when we're coming out for those in winter, they're gonna come out and the sun comes out and it's like, want to play golf every day. So you'll be wrestling with that.
Matt Considine (01:06:34.648)
pace yourself, right? I think there is a little bit of that, the delay a little bit, but I gotta say, I respect the hell out of the guys who just as soon as there's a cut cup in the ground, they're gonna go get it. I do think that's super cool. I love seeing that.
The Professor (01:06:45.851)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:06:52.367)
Yeah, it's funny down here in the South, we're just playing this weekend and got drenched on Sunday, but a couple new club guys in from Atlanta over in Athens and so we definitely played. But we were laughing how, you know, the Chicago guys right now would be loving it, like just like smiling and we're sitting there like, should we just stop playing and go in the girl room? It's like 60 degrees and like raining, right? It's warm but playable. And, you know, we're spoiled down here in the South where it's like, ah, it's a little drizzle today, let's just sit this one out.
Matt Considine (01:07:20.354)
The one man's trash is another man's treasure, is that to say that comes to mind?
The Professor (01:07:24.719)
I think that works with golf weather.
Matt Considine (01:07:27.864)
Well, thank you, professor. As always, thanks to everybody for listening. If you're enjoying the podcast this year, the backdrop across most social channels, the backdrop golf, I believe on one or two of them, Twitter and YouTube. But give us a follow. We're now like our own channel. That would be much appreciated for you guys that have been following us for a long time. Give us a like, subscribe to pod if you're not, and we got some fun things coming for the rest of this year.
Final hat trick of thank yous to our friends at Titleist for supporting this show, supporting New Club Golf Society. I love my GT medals. I may be adding a fourth to the bag with their GT 280 for this 2026 season. We'll see, but go see for yourself over at Titleist.com. Get your certified fitting scheduled today. Professor, we'll catch you the next one.