Listening to the heart

In this episode of the 'to the heart' podcast, Helen Thorne-Allenson, Andrew Collins, and Amanda Cook explore the theme of listening to the heart within the context of biblical counselling and church community. They discuss the importance of being attentive to our hearts, the barriers to vulnerability, and how to create a safe culture in the church for open conversations. The conversation emphasises practical ways to encourage deeper discussions, the significance of prayer, and the transformative power of sharing our hearts with one another.

Takeaways:

• The heart is central to our relationship with God.
• One anothering in the church involves being attentive to each other's hearts.
• Vulnerability is essential for meaningful conversations.
• Creating a safe culture in the church encourages openness.
• Listening to our hearts requires humility and self-awareness.
• Barriers to vulnerability include fear of judgment and discomfort.
• Practical love flows from a heart that relates well to God.
• Transitioning from small talk to deeper conversations is important.
• Prayer should focus on the heart, not just circumstances.
• Transformation in the church comes from honest conversations about our hearts.

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Listening to the Heart
02:21 One Anothering in the Church
05:04 Natural Conversations About the Heart
07:54 Barriers to Vulnerability
11:15 Creating a Safe Culture in the Church
15:22 Listening with Pure Motives
19:47 Transitioning from Small Talk to Heart Talk
25:25 Connecting Bible Study to Personal Hearts
30:37 Encouraging Deeper Prayer Requests

Hosted by Helen Thorne-Allenson and produced by Andrew McKenna.
Find all episodes on your favourite podcast provider or at bcuk.org/podcast
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Creators and Guests

Host

Helen Thorne-Allenson

Director of Training and Resources at BCUK

Guest

Amanda Cook

Director of the Church-based Intern Scheme at BCUK

Guest

Andrew Collins

Director of Counselling Ministry at BCUK

What is The BCUK Podcast?

Equipping churches for conversation and counsel

Helen Thorne-Allenson (00:02)
Hello and welcome to our second episode of the To The Heart podcast. My name is Helen Thorne-Allenson from Biblical Counselling UK and today we'll be looking at the topic of listening to the heart, how we listen, how we encourage others in the church to listen as well. With me today I have Andrew Collins and Amanda Cook. Andrew, Amanda, welcome. Maybe you'd just like to introduce yourselves briefly.

Andrew Collins (00:29)
Thanks Helen, lovely to be here. ⁓ So Andrew Collins, am currently serving as the Director of Counselling Ministry at BCUK.

Amanda Cook (00:41)
And thanks Helen, it's nice to be here as well. I am currently overseeing the intern scheme, the church-based intern scheme for BCUK.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (00:49)
Lovely to have you both here. Well, last issue, we were looking at what the heart is and why we pay attention to it. Andrew, can you just catch us up a little bit if someone hasn't heard that first issue? What were we talking about then?

Andrew Collins (01:02)
Yes, glad to do that, Helen. I think one of the distinctives about how we think about the heart in biblical counselling is that we see it very much as that part of us that relates to God. ⁓ We sometimes talk about the heart as a relational category. And I guess what we mean by that is that it's not so much a location within us as in our body and heart.

although that's true biblically. But we're interested in the fact that from the heart we relate to God and therefore it is that in a sense relational core that is part of who we are and how we change and in a sense is what is most important ⁓ about us as people.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (02:00)
Thank you. And as you describe it there, it sounds like a very personal thing, the heart. It is the location of that, as you say, that relationship between us and God. However, what we're talking about today is the fact that as a church, we are a community that helps each other be attentive to our hearts, not in a weirdly introspective way, but in a way that enables us to become much more like Jesus. So I'm wondering, Amanda, maybe you can kick us off by thinking a little bit.

about what that one anothering in a local church might look like if we genuinely are to be attentive to our hearts.

Amanda Cook (02:37)
Yeah, thanks, Helen. It's such a good question to consider. And I think there's probably lots that we could say on that front. But a few things coming to mind in terms of that one anothering and looking at the heart. I think the way that we go about our small group studies, if our churches have those smaller home groups or small groups, I think working really hard in those times to think, how is whatever passage we're looking at, how is that going to shape

the hearts of those who are here, both as we respond to in the moment, but also as people step out into their Monday mornings, how is that passage going to inform the way that they relate to the Lord and to the circumstances of their life and doing that together, thinking that out together? And I also think it shapes the way that we pray with one another as well, when we're attentive to the heart. So going beyond praying for circumstances, although of course, ⁓

definitely do that as well, but also praying for our hearts. And if you need some help in knowing how to do that, just look at Paul's prayers in his letters. I love the one from Philippians where he's asking the Lord to help grow these people in their love and their discernment to know what is best. So just borrowing some of that language as well. But one more final thought as well. think

When we hear that phrase one anothering, we think of welcoming the newcomer or sitting with the tearful or bringing a meal or checking in on that and that person who was missing or whatever else it might look like. And that can feel like quite practical things to go and do. But I actually really think that flows out of hearts that are relating to the Lord well. Because I think by instinct we turn inwards. ⁓ We do what we want to do. We do what makes us feel comfortable. We look after number one, as it were.

But I actually think when we're relating well to the Lord, it flows out into practical, wise love towards one another as well. So yeah, wanting to make that connection too.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (04:45)
It sounds wonderful, that sense of our connectedness to the Lord, our connectedness to our church, everyone's spurring one another on to be attentive to that relational piece without ignoring the practical side. Although I'm just thinking from my own personal perspective, I don't find it necessarily very easy to engage in that kind of heart conversation. I mean, how easy do you find it? To what extent do we actually do this naturally?

Andrew Collins (05:16)
Yeah, I think that's ⁓ again, you know, really helpful to think about. And I do wonder, I because I agree with you, Helen, I feel exactly the same way. I kind of wonder how well am I really doing this? And yet I do wonder if in a sense we do it more naturally than we realize. ⁓ In a sense, we're always bringing our hearts into our conversation. Whatever comes out of our mouth comes from our hearts. Jesus, ⁓ in a sense.

you tells us that we speak out of the abundance of our hearts. there's a sense in which I think in a way we do it quite naturally, particularly whenever we talk about what matters, whenever we talk about the things that matter to us. We're really talking about what's on our hearts. We're talking about the things that are important, the things that we value. And even when we begin to use that language, like the things that we value, the things that matter to us, it's almost

veering into worship language, isn't it? It's getting into that kind of language of the heart. So in one sense, I think we probably do it quite naturally. Maybe we just need to notice that more and maybe then we need to pick up on it. And, you know, someone's talking about something that matters to them. We maybe come in and say, you seem to really care about that and then see where the conversation sort of takes us next, for example.

Amanda Cook (06:44)
Yeah, I'd add to that, Andrew. I think those little cues, those little entry ways into the heart are actually there more often than we think. ⁓ But sometimes it's maybe just a little bit subtle or we just have to learn how to hear those entry ways. I found myself saying to someone the other day ⁓ after a slightly stressful encounter that I wanted to go home and sort of rage clean my house. And I thought, well, there we go. There's a little entry way into my own heart in that moment.

What is it about that bad day that made me want to go and clean and tidy my house? What's going on there? It just kind of came out of me so naturally. And I think those kind of little cues ⁓ are often there in our conversations more than we think.

Andrew Collins (07:30)
And we're all dying to know how clean is your house morning, Amanda. Anyway, I'll not take us off track,

Amanda Cook (07:32)
Not very, because I'm not very stressed right now.

You

Helen Thorne-Allenson (07:41)
I I love how encouraging you are that I also love the concept of rage cleaning. It's not something I've ever experienced. My rage takes me in different directions, but there would be another entry to my heart. But of course, for some people, it is a struggle to actually talk about the heart. And I'm just wondering, what are some of the really common barriers that some people will experience in maybe just being a little bit more vulnerable? Because you do have to be a bit vulnerable.

Amanda Cook (07:53)
you

Helen Thorne-Allenson (08:09)
to actually talk about your heart.

Amanda Cook (08:13)
Yeah, I think there's lots of things that can make it tricky. ⁓ It's not what we're to. ⁓ I think talking about our hearts, even though the cues or the entryways are there, I think slowing down on them is not what we naturally do in conversation. So it can feel a little bit like you're learning to swim upstream, going against the norm of what you normally do. And conversations can already take a lot of work. So making yourself vulnerable is an even additional layer to that. ⁓

So I think it's just not what we do. We're not used to it. I also think there can be a little bit of a worry of what happens if I do open up? How is that other person going to respond? What if they respond badly to these sensitive things that I'm offering them? What if they don't notice that I've opened up? Actually, the possibility of hurt can actually build when you become a bit more vulnerable.

So I think there's lots of things that can feed into why it's hard to do that.

Andrew Collins (09:14)
Yeah, really, really helpful thoughts there, Amanda. And yet, you know, I think that, you know, those times whenever maybe I find myself being a bit more vulnerable, ⁓ I do find myself afterwards kind of coming away from a conversation thinking, no, you know, feeling almost a bit embarrassed, you know, what does the person think of me? You know, and again, there we are wrestling with our hearts again.

And then Paul comes along and he says to us that that he more gladly kind of therefore boasts in his weaknesses, boasts in his infirmities. know, ⁓ I, I think I know myself, the Lord, I know I need the Lord to do more, more work in my own heart there to bring me to a point where I feel I'm able to be to be glad and even to boast in being kind of weak and vulnerable.

Having those kind of conversations where I do come away afterwards and think, dear, that felt hard. Have I shared too much? So boasting in that kind of weakness seems to be something that, yeah, I know I need to be growing in this whole area.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (10:35)
that is very counter-cultural, isn't it? Most of us have had many years of thinking we actually need to be strong, need to have it together, need to be shown to be glossy and shiny Christians, you and actually the gospel is most commended when we are at our best. And we do forget that Paul was so quick to show that he was the worst of sinners, so quick to show his suffering and his weakness to ask for a cloak when he needed it.

It's a wonderful model to us. But Amanda, I think you alluded to the fact that when we do that, there is still a course of risk, hopefully not a large risk, but there is a risk of actually somebody won't respond well when we share some of our hearts. And I suppose that's where the matter of safety comes in, in the church. We want our churches not just to be places where we do share our heart, but places where it's safe to share our hearts. I'm just wondering,

What does it look like to build a culture of care where it is safe to do that?

Andrew Collins (11:39)
Yeah, I'll chip in here, although to be honest, I think Amanda will be the expert. ⁓ There you go, Amanda. I'm setting you up for a great answer here. ⁓ just with all of that church based intern scheme experience and all seriousness, think that you do think a lot about this and that scheme. But a few thoughts that kind of came to my mind or that come to mind are, for example, ⁓ a pastor preaching and he shares a personal illustration.

in a sermon. It's one of those maybe kind of from the pulpit sort of public ministry opportunities. Amanda mentioned earlier just about the sharing of prayer points in a group Bible study. ⁓ You know, I think again, you know, growing just in how we do that can just begin to kind of spread that culture. And again, maybe just we need to see the value of the

conversation we have with someone either after church or during the week or whatever, or even just one conversation at a time where we are sharing and we're building that kind of trustworthiness and permission to speak about the heart. That one conversation at a time begins to just sort of permeate through into a church and begin to sort of change the culture. ⁓

But Amanda, I'm sure you have some thoughts about this.

Amanda Cook (13:08)
Well, I was gonna echo ⁓ the role that pastors and other leaders, whether that's small group leaders or others as well have in modeling, that they are recipients of grace as well. And therefore that gives them that freedom to be honest too. But I also think ⁓ checking in on a church's gossip ⁓ is a really ⁓ helpful kind of assessment of how safe it might feel to share. you know, just thinking through like, how is our gossip?

when people share things with us, do we know how to appropriately, where needed, pass that on, if that's appropriate, but also where to actually protect those confidences as well? How's our follow-up with people as well? If somebody has shared something significant with us that's maybe happening in a week time or a month's time or maybe an anniversary of a significant bereavement or something like that, how's our follow-up? Are we remembering? Are we checking in on people?

But I also think, like, how is our identity in Christ, or how is our sense of our identity in Christ, maybe? Because going back to what I was saying earlier, sharing, being more open, being more vulnerable, it does come with risk, and we can't eradicate that until Jesus comes again and makes all things new. There's always going to be that risk that someone will not remember, someone will respond in a way that maybe wasn't as helpful as it could have been.

But I think going back to that perfect security that we have in him, what you were saying earlier, Andrew, going, yeah, just going back to that means that we can take that risk ⁓ and open up and share.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (14:47)
Thank you. Wise words there ⁓ and ones that we can reflect upon. It occurs to me that one of the risks, I mean, notwithstanding what you're saying about the absolute security that we have in the Lord, but one of the risks is not just when we are speaking and we risk the other person responding badly. Sometimes the risk is in our own heart when we are listening. And I've seen it in my own heart over the years, not every day, but just occasionally.

I'm not always listening because I want God to be glorified. I'm not always listening because I want the other person to thrive. Sometimes, just occasionally, I'm listening because I want to know. ⁓ And there is a, is it a power? There's certainly an allure about knowing something. ⁓ And when I see that in my heart, is so, so ugly when I see that there. I mean, how do we guard our hearts, not just as speakers?

but as listeners to people's fine china.

Amanda Cook (15:49)
such a good area to touch on Helen. I think, you know, all of us as believers, we are all sort of compromised, distracted, divided in our worship in the way that we relate to the Lord. And sometimes that does mean our motives are not as pure as they should be. I think one starting point is remembering that we need help understanding our own heart as well. We need other people to help us grow in our walk with the Lord, our worship of Him. So even if I'm

in any particular conversation, focus on the other person and what's going on for them in their own heart. think remembering that I need that same kind of refining, helping work helps because it just reminds you of that need for humility. ⁓ I also think just committing those conversations to the Lord in prayer, whether proactively, like before you step into church on a Sunday morning or afterwards, asking him to guide you in those conversations, you know, helping.

him helping you to sort of know if that question is not going to be helpful for that person. I think just as well, one further thing coming to mind was just thinking that why do I want to listen to this person? Why do I want to know what's going on in their heart? And it can be, Helen, as you were saying, maybe just kind of nosiness, but I think sometimes I want to listen to someone and know what's going on in their heart so I can fix and sort them so they make my life easier.

And I think just being aware of our own motivations in those conversations is really, important, which then comes back to that humility piece, because, yeah, we need that work in our own hearts.

Andrew Collins (17:26)
⁓ Really, really insightful as I was listening to you, Amanda, I'm thinking I already want to start doing my conversations differently as a result of this conversation. yeah, thinking about this, I'm also to think a little bit about those conversations that are maybe that little bit more formal or in depth or intentional or kind of even counselling kind of conversations ⁓ in their nature.

I definitely think this is a trap, question here, Helen, about sort of ⁓ our own heart is so important. ⁓ Because I think that, I mean, clearly we want to understand people, we want to know a person well, you know, and part of getting to understand them and to know them is to know their heart. And so there is a sense in which the heart of man is deep waters, we want to go deeper in those conversations. And yet I think the question is so important.

that we've asked here, you know, am I doing that from a place of love? Am I loving the person in front of me? And I do wonder, actually, as I was reflecting on this, I'm thinking, you know, I find even those little kind of almost like arrow prayers in the middle of a conversation, ⁓ you know, those kind of in the moment sort of on the fly kind of Lord help here.

Am I loving the person in front of me? Help me to know what to say next. Help me to know what not to say. That almost while the kind of horizontal channel is on with the person in front of you, that the vertical channel is also still always on while you're having the conversation. ⁓ think that's again, I think that's something I want to be growing in. And I guess also just added into that.

is to mention, just even paying attention to our conscience in the midst of a conversation. Have I noticed even within myself a little kind of, ⁓ should I have said that? I'm not being afraid to even bring that into the conversation. ⁓ I hope what I said a moment ago was OK. Or I hope I'm not being too intrusive with this question, like that kind of thing.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (19:49)
Thank you. Well, let's get practical. We've talked about the concepts. Let's imagine we are in a church where there is a ⁓ safe culture of care, where there is a shared understanding that being attentive to the heart is a good thing. Let's make an assumption that we've looked at our own hearts and are being prayerful there. Conversation is expected or wanted at least.

Let's look at a few scenarios and see how we might actually help that conversation about the heart flow. Let's start with ⁓ small talk. We're chatting ⁓ to a friend after church. There's a mug of coffee in our hand. ⁓ We're standing around having a bit of a natter. How do we move from small talk about the football, the tennis, you know?

what we've been doing with the children that week, whatever it might be. How do we move to that, to something that's a little bit deeper, something that's a bit more heart orientated?

Andrew Collins (20:53)
Yeah, I I think even to begin, I love the way you're starting just with that everyday stuff, Helen, because I think even that again, out of the abundance of the heart we speak, even that is even those topics are can be a bridge towards loving someone or not. And I think we need to see them as important. I think also if someone is talking about

football or their grandchildren. Let's remember that that that you know the heart is not just about the hard things. The heart is also about the good things you know and and so to say you know you seem to really enjoy you know watching a good game of football or you seem to you seem to really enjoy time with your grandchildren. Tell me a bit more about them. You know you are getting into those areas which can be occasions for thanking the Lord.

praising the Lord together, being thankful for those good things. And I think that those things are important. Of course, they can always then be gateways into the harder things as well. And ⁓ not being afraid to track with those things that are harder in a conversation. We can find ourselves feeling a little bit nervous about going there because we might not be sure what to say.

but not being afraid to say, know, gosh, that sounds really hard what you're going through. Tell me a bit more and seeing where the Lord takes it.

Amanda Cook (22:28)
I'd add as well, Andrew, on the conversations around the football, the grandchildren. I think when we think about the heart, often think about motivations, like what's driving someone, what's fueling someone. And a question that I love asking people, maybe when they are chatting about their work week and what they do for a job, and maybe it's staying on that more surface level, just saying, how did you end up in the role that you're in, in your job? And sometimes you get

fairly short answers, but more often than not, you get some fascinating stories and insights into people's lives and what has motivated them to work in the area that they do or do whatever else. But I guess to kind of keep on Helen's question about how to sort of move more into the heart, I think if you are having a conversation with a friend, there is an assumption that there's some degree of relationship there, there's some degree of trust there as well. And you'll know more about their life than

the football game that they watched on Saturday evening or whatever it might be, you might know that there are hard things going on that they just haven't brought up in conversation just yet. And I think it's a myth that somebody else is always asking them those questions. So why not be that person to say, hey, I know something else is going on in your life. I know that tricky thing is happening. How is that going at the moment? How can I be praying for you? Or

You know, I know you, I know that those kinds of situations are not your favorite. What impact is that having on you at the moment? So just those gentle questions that gives the other person control over what they say, especially if it's in a public space, but not being afraid to ask just those questions that go a little bit deeper.

Andrew Collins (24:12)
Yeah, and I'll ⁓ pop in again and just follow up there and say, you've talked in, I guess it's a question that I know we ⁓ think a lot about in biblical counselling, the how can I pray for you question. But again, I'd love us to just slow down and remember that that is such an ⁓ important question, a good question, and that it's a question that in one sense is not

I think not beyond any of us to ask. Really helpful.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (24:47)
I think one sort of trio of questions that I often fall back on is what's been encouraging this week, what's been hard this week, and then move out of those things, what's been hardest, and then what can I pray for you? They're all really open questions, so people can actually go deep or they can actually stay quite surface. obviously within our friendship groups, we have some people with whom we all go really deep and other people who...

Actually, we won't get much below the surface. That's just normal life. But with those kind of open questions that we've been sharing there, people have a choice and hopefully they will choose to share something of their heart and give us that privilege of praying for them.

Andrew Collins (25:29)
Yeah, I love that. mean, they feel quite natural to Helen, which is lovely.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (25:35)
Well, let's try a different scenario. It's a midweek group. ⁓ Not all churches have midweek groups, for the purposes of this podcast, we'll assume we're in a church that does. And we've just had a nice coffee time. We've had a really good kind of Bible study. We're getting into the passage. We all know what the main point is. There haven't been too many red herrings on this particular ⁓ conversation. How do we move from questions about the passage

to actually talking about our hearts in light of that passage.

Amanda Cook (26:08)
this is where I hope whoever's written the questions for the study has done that hard work for me. I think that can be a help, obviously, if somebody has done some thinking about that beforehand. I think as well, you mentioned Helen, just, you know, having some coffee time before you get into the Bible study. Again, I think that's a good opportunity where you're catching up with people, you're finding out what's going on in their life. You might get these little...

glimpses of maybe some of the hardships, maybe some of the encouragements going on and in an appropriate way to actually bring that in to the Bible study. So saying things like, you know, a few of us in this group are going through some really tough things right now. How does this passage speak into maybe some of those fears, some of those sufferings, some of the encouragements that we've been hearing about or something like, you know, I know a number of us have some busy weeks coming up over the next little while.

How does this passage speak into that challenge? So just, you're not sort of pinpointing any person and putting them on the spot in a way that would make them feel uncomfortable, but you're drawing together some of those connections. And then a third thing that I have found quite helpful is if you are leading the study, if you have some control over what the questions are gonna be, it's actually writing some little scenarios. So they're not based on any of the people in the room.

but you're making up a scenario that wouldn't be uncommon for individuals in your group to have faced or to be facing in the coming week. And so you're getting them to chat about a hypothetical person facing a hypothetical, I don't know, work situation or home life situation or whatever, and getting them to do the application of how does that passage help that hypothetical person in a way that can then make some really useful links as well.

Andrew Collins (27:58)
Wow, brilliantly helpful, Amanda. I feel like I to read this podcast and write some of those things to put into practice. We have been studying in our little group here in church, part of the Midweek Bible, studying Exodus. So you can imagine there have been lots of opportunities to think about our hearts as we've been going through the wilderness with the children of Israel. We were on grumbling recently and, you know, it was

I'm trying to think in a sense how it happened, one of the folks in the group began to share just about sort of, you know, began to talk about grumbling and somebody began to share about grumbling at traffic lights and how traffic lights on the way to work and hitting red lights just began to kind of, you know, reveal grumbling. And it I think I think we've had to grow to that

point in our Bible study, to be honest, I think we would have been, you know, ⁓ we could have fallen into sort of the to the side of it being quite kind of sort of academic and classroomy. And don't get me wrong, you know, we want to learn about the Bible in our Bible study. It is a study. But at the same time, we want it to be a place where people can share those little scenarios. ⁓

wait, wait, another one. A lady who's joined quite recently, and I think this has been helpful as well, a lady who joined quite recently and therefore was coming very fresh into the Bible study, of thankfully didn't know the rules of the game too much. And so she just shared what was on her heart. And as we were talking one of the weeks about idolatry, she began to share about this teapot that she loves. And she could, but it was a beautiful moment of her joining the dots between

seeing that her heart could overvalue something and that her life was this teapot. But it was amazing how it then opened up others just to kind of share. So somehow just being able to kind of not let it get, you know, you don't want it to swing too far in either direction of being too theological or abstract or being maybe too kind of, you know, overemphasizing the application, but just allowing people certainly that permission to.

to share has been just a blessing for us. ⁓

Helen Thorne-Allenson (30:28)
I think one thing that I found quite helpful is not leaving that to the end, because you know what it's like, you get stuck into the passage, it's fascinating, it's God's word, it's rich, there's no end to the depths that you can explore. And then look at your time going, there's an application question, let's just look at that. And it all gets squeezed out. And so I'm now trying, when I'm leading Bible studies of different descriptions, it's actually stop in the middle.

or even at the very start going, as we come to this Bible study, what are some of the practical questions that are bubbling around in our head? Or in questions sort of three or four, like where is this landing in our lives right now? And then it doesn't get so squeezed out ⁓ at the end. ⁓ A very practical thing maybe we can toy with. We don't have to do the same format every week. Scenario number three, final one.

Imagine we've got to the end of the Bible study or maybe we're back after church again and we say to someone, how can I be praying for you? And they give a very practical, I need a new job. I'd love you to be healing my aunt. And a very sort of, well, not a very heart orientated prayer request, ⁓ a good prayer request, things that we want to be praying for, absolutely.

But how do we nudge people, encourage people very gently in our groups to go beyond, please God, will you do this for me in terms of provide this or heal this person? How do we get a little bit further towards our heart in our prayer requests?

Andrew Collins (32:05)
Yeah, think the guess where we're wanting to get to is underneath the circumstance, what does the person really want or need or maybe fear even in the midst of this? ⁓ And so beginning to kind of

move into that sort of, you know, almost being ready to have a bit of a conversation about the prayer request. And it may go something along the lines of, and how can I be really praying for you as you go to that appointment? It may even need a little bit more conversation along the lines of how are you doing with facing that situation? And how can I be praying for you in the midst of that?

Because I think you're right, we want to try and get to, you know, what's happening for you in relation to the Lord in the midst of this. What do you need and how can I be bringing that before the Lord in the midst of this as well?

Amanda Cook (33:19)
Yeah, I would echo that. It's really helpful, Andrew, just add in those few more questions to build out things. I think sometimes modeling. ⁓ So if you are in that kind of smaller Bible study setting, you might not always be, but ⁓ even just the way that we ask for prayer for ourselves ⁓ and actually working hard at going beyond just our circumstances ourselves can be really helpful. Sometimes questions like, you know, was there anything from our passage tonight or?

Maybe the sermon that we just heard or maybe some of the songs that we've just sung that feels relevant as you face that appointment or whatever it might be. You know, can I pray along those lines as well with you? So you're actually inviting the person to help further flesh out those prayers as well. I think I was mentioning at towards the very start of this conversation, some of the different prayers in scripture. I know that's been hugely helpful for me just to read through what some of the people in scripture have prayed, both Old and New Testament.

for fleshing out both my own prayers, but also, yeah, just encouraging me to kind of be praying beyond circumstances with other people too. ⁓ And this is a very long game one, and we may have ⁓ limited ability to influence our churches on this, but I think sometimes developing a richer theology of suffering can help our prayers go beyond circumstances too. ⁓ I know that's a big broad area, ⁓ and yeah, it can be tricky to kind of know where to start with that one, but.

Again, I think, yeah, developing that kind of sense of the Lord is up to stuff in the suffering. He's after the alleviation of it too. So we do want to pray for our circumstances. We do want to pray for short-term help too, but what the Lord is up to in those harder circumstances ⁓ to really fuel ⁓ faith-filled prayers, I think it can be helpful as well.

Andrew Collins (35:09)
Yeah, I think that is so helpful, actually, Amanda, really, really good point. you know, because I think in even in ways that we don't always recognize our theology of something like suffering will guide even how we might prompt someone. know, I'm sure it's really hard to figure out what the Lord might be doing here in the midst of this really difficult thing, you know. And of course, they're

backdrop to that is maybe you've been reading Job and thinking through the great mysteries of suffering that are thought through in that particular book. But that has informed just that little kind of prompt. Yeah, really helpful point.

Amanda Cook (35:43)
Yeah.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (35:58)
Really concrete questions there as well. Thank you for those examples. There may not be, but are there any other sort of questions that spring into mind that just might be useful to use in conversation or small groups as we help people be attentive to their hearts?

Amanda Cook (36:13)
I some questions that I love asking ⁓ are probably dependent on both the circumstances and the relationship that I have with the person. So just want to kind of give that caveat first. But first question that was coming to mind was actually one of St. Casey's question from his book on unanswered prayer. What magic button would you want the Lord to press in the middle of this circumstance? It just gets at some of those desires.

that might be sitting underneath the surface or what's your worst case scenario in this situation? What's the worst thing that could happen or the best thing? The questions like what gets you out of bed in the morning or what made you to go into that line of job? I find those kinds of things really helpful to ask just to get a sense of who the person is in front of me. Or what should have happened? What were you hoping would have happened as you look backwards?

I guess that just gets at some expectations, maybe especially in circumstances where there's disappointment at play. ⁓ Sometimes I ask this question, but it can be a bit risky, so just be careful with it. if the Lord was sat next to you, what would you want to ask him? ⁓ Sometimes that just brings in the vertical dimension in that horizontal conversation.

and gets you chatting about that. You going back to the start of if talking about our heart is about our relationship with the Lord, ⁓ actually questions kind of along those lines can be really helpful in opening up that vein.

Andrew Collins (37:45)
No, brilliantly helpful, Amanda. I don't think I have an awful lot really to add to those. I suppose just at a very simple level, you know, sometimes, for example, someone's sharing some anxiety about something or stress or something just in that broad field of anxiety, stress, fear.

I sometimes found helpful to ask something like, ⁓ in the midst of all that you're feeling, I wonder what you're really afraid of. So that you're kind of just trying to maybe focus down, especially with anxiety, where, of course, our thoughts and our feelings can be in such kind of turmoil and feel quite chaotic, slowing down with someone, you know, I wonder what you're really afraid of in the midst of this. And similarly, you know, the flip side of that

of the flip side to fear being desire, ⁓ might be in the midst of, again, sort of someone's struggle. I wonder what it is you really want in the midst of this. I wonder what you're really looking for. And maybe just a third one coming to mind as we're talking in that way is ⁓ thinking about the whole area of seeking refuge and ⁓

You know, where do you find relief and help in the midst of this? Maybe begins to tap into that particular area of the heart a little bit too.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (39:25)
Yeah, really helpful. And as you're both speaking, I'm reminded, of course, of David Powison's paper in the Journal of Biblical Counselling, his X-ray questions, where there are so many questions that help us get to the heart. Final question for you. We've got this glorious vision that you've painted for us here about being a church where we speak to one another about our hearts. So those hearts can be

transformed, changed evermore into the likeness of Christ. We have such a privilege in being able to walk alongside each other in that journey. What's a really good thing to be praying for our churches that we will actually go on that journey of being attentive to one another's hearts and seeing that transformation take place?

Andrew Collins (40:15)
Yeah, I am and as mentioned a few times in our conversation just about using biblical prayers and yeah, really, really. That's a really helpful encouragement. I guess I think ⁓ it's not a prayer, but Ephesians four does kind of move on from that prayer at the end of Ephesians three. And of course, Ephesians four, a very sort of ⁓

kind of core vision for us in biblical counselling in terms of seeing the church ⁓ growing together into the image of Christ as they speak with one another. As we have these kind of truth shaped, truth soaked kind of conversations in love, then we grow together. And I guess that kind of Ephesians 4 vision is

in a broad sense, what we really want to be praying for our churches. And I guess we can pray for it with confidence, can't we? Because this is God's desire for his church and he's laid it out for us beautifully in that chapter ⁓ of Ephesians. That's one thought certainly comes to my mind.

Amanda Cook (41:35)
And I think to add to that as well, Andrew, I think you're entirely right to say we can pray those things with confidence because we know it's what the Lord is, delights to do in his people. But I think maybe to add to that, prayers for patience as well, because these things don't happen overnight. And I know for myself, when I've been praying for myself, for my church family to be growing in conversations that do speak of the heart, it can be easy to fall into that trap of then,

only seeing the places where that isn't happening and getting a little bit frustrated. So I think praying for the Lord to keep growing our love for one another, our patience with one another, but also an ability to see what he is up to still to see the good of what is happening, even if there are places where we'd love to see growth as well.

Helen Thorne-Allenson (42:26)
Thank you. Well, thank you both for your wisdom. Thank you for your gentleness with us as we seek to grow together in this area of listening. And I hope that those of you who are listening to us right now will join us for issue episode three, where we'll be talking about speaking to the heart. But as we bring things to a close, Amanda, would you pray for us, pray for our churches that we would indeed be growing in listening to the heart?

Amanda Cook (42:57)
⁓ Father, we do pray for ourselves and for our church families, Lord, that you would indeed be helping us to abound more and more in love for one another, that you would help us to discern what is best and that you would fill us with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Christ. And I pray one fruit in particular would be conversations that do go just that little bit deeper, conversations that do

begin to speak of the heart, Lord, as we relate to you, even in those conversations that we have with one another. And I pray that there will be much good that flows from that. Lord, I pray even if it's against the norm of what we normally do, that you would be just giving those little opportunities to go that bit deeper. ⁓ Lord, not for the sake of deeper conversations in and of themselves, but so that people can be bringing their hearts as they know them more fully to you.

to know the transforming grace and mercy of Christ at work. So Lord we pray that, we pray that we would be growing in these things for ourselves, we pray that our church families would be too. And we ask that all in Christ's name, Amen.