Becoming an entrepreneur takes grit.
Deciding to do it solo takes courage.
This is 1,000 Routes, the podcast where we explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Chris Dubois [00:00:00]:
As soon as that one domino fell, it was like, boom. Everything just kept lining up. And now, like, I'm at the point where I almost can't take on more clients because I'm going to have to start sacrificing other parts of life, which then kills the whole reason I was doing this on my own. Anyways.
Nick Bennett [00:00:20]:
This is 1000 Routes. Every episode, a solopreneur shares how they're building, what they're building. We'll hear all about how they've made the bet on themselves, the uncommon route that they're taking to build a business that serves their life, and the reality of building a business of one. I'm your host, Nick Bennett. Before we get started, I'm excited to share a new program that I've been working on called Full Stack Solopreneur in partnership with my friend and legendary entrepreneur Erica Schneider. Now, unlike other programs, Full Stack Solopreneur is a hybrid digital program for independent professionals who are too far along for another course to be really all that helpful, but not far enough to invest in a private coaching or consulting service. In here, you'll gain access to both the full curriculum and monthly group coaching clinics to teach you how to create a legendary niche offer, how to build a content engine, and how to sell like a human. You can learn more@fullstacksolo.com that's FullStack S O L O.com.
Chris Dubois [00:01:20]:
I am Chris Dubois and I help agencies go to market with a clear idea of what they're actually working towards as an agency.
Nick Bennett [00:01:30]:
Chris, you and I met at Inbound 2019 before the world fell apart. And I don't know if you were, like, just getting into agency space or into marketing or something like that, but, like, I was at Impact at the time. We had a bunch of people from our company speaking. You came to one of the sessions and we were outside, like, talking to people, and you were like, hey, like, I'll add you on LinkedIn. And I was like, who's talking about LinkedIn, man? And then that was it. And then I didn't hear from you for, I don't know, four years or something through, I think it was like 2023. You went out on your own around the same time I did, and Somehow, like, the LinkedIn feed just serves you people. And I was like, hey, dude, looks like you also did this thing that I did.
Nick Bennett [00:02:08]:
Let's catch up. And then, I don't know, I feel like we've been best friends ever since.
Chris Dubois [00:02:12]:
Yeah. No, it's just fate.
Nick Bennett [00:02:13]:
It was fate.
Chris Dubois [00:02:14]:
What's interesting is that there were actually multiple outreaches that I had from 2019 to 2023. You just didn't respond to any of them, so it's.
Nick Bennett [00:02:21]:
Oh, well, that makes me feel good. All right, prove it. You got the receipts?
Chris Dubois [00:02:25]:
No, I. Oh, no, they're. They're somewhere. I'll go find this.
Nick Bennett [00:02:29]:
Okay. Yeah. There were letters. You mailed me letters. So between then, though, between those two times, those two initial meet and greets, you became the CEO of a HubSpot agency, and you made a decision at some point throughout that entire process of, like, you know, what would be better than doing this, helping all the agencies. Tell me about that turning point for you.
Chris Dubois [00:02:56]:
I don't know that that was the exact decision, but in 2019, I had definitely just started market. I mean, I. I got out of the army in like, February of that year, so I'd been working at. At an agency since then. That was, what, September? So, yeah, my fee went learning how to market. But then I became head of operations shortly after because everything in the army was operational right then. Yeah. Doing the CEO thing, we went through some of the challenges that you have when hiring a CEO in house, where the founder actually says, all right, I'm going to step aside and let someone else do this.
Chris Dubois [00:03:32]:
We went through some of those pains. We worked through most of them and stuff. Then at some point, I just kind of realized I could just go build my own thing, like I could take full control over what I'm doing. I'd had a couple things come up where. So I had a bad reaction to COVID vaccine and. Or we assume that's what it was. There are no tests to prove it, but I had a very large blood clot that caused me to basically have to sit around for six months and not really live my normal life. I'm pretty active person, but because of that, I was on some pretty strong pain meds to help, but I refused to take them during the day because that meant I couldn't work.
Chris Dubois [00:04:05]:
Right. I was like, loopy and stuff. But so I had to take them at night, and I really wanted to take them at night. So that forced me to stop working till midnight every single night. And just that little shift of, like, actually clocking out at 5 and stuff and being like, it doesn't matter. It will be there tomorrow. It just doesn't matter what's there tomorrow.
Nick Bennett [00:04:25]:
Right.
Chris Dubois [00:04:25]:
Really started a shift for me. And just being like, this doesn't have to be the way. Like, there could be something better where I Can actually have control of my schedule. And then I actually stepped down to. To start coaching leaders and just go on. Leadership coaching. Right. That's where we started talking.
Chris Dubois [00:04:42]:
Turns out not a lot of people want leadership coaching just in general. Maybe they do. I didn't know how to reach them. Turns out people want a solution to a problem that they're having. And when you're that vague and saying, hey, I help leaders be better leaders, it's like, nope, not great enough. But I did have some agencies that I knew from being a CEO at an agency. And so a bunch of them started talking to me, realized, hey, I can coach these guys. I actually know way more than I think I know.
Chris Dubois [00:05:06]:
And kind of created the curriculum, created the plan for how to do this, got some quick results with clients, and now here we are.
Nick Bennett [00:05:14]:
It was just easy like that. Just perfect execution the entire way. Yeah.
Chris Dubois [00:05:20]:
With no. No crying. No. No questioning all my life decisions up to there.
Nick Bennett [00:05:26]:
So this blood clot changes your life in, like, all the ways. Don't work till midnight. That's a good thing.
Chris Dubois [00:05:31]:
It is. Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:05:32]:
And then you got to relax, and then you make your transition. Okay. So you decide that this is gonna be the thing you wanna do for whatever's going on inside of your lean labs at the time you make the transition out. You were running. When we started talking, it was leading for effect. That was a leadership coaching thing. And you had already had like a flag publicly planted in the idea of, like, dynamic leadership. And I think this is something that I've noticed a lot of people are very concerned about, which is like, trying to do a thing and then evolving that thing into something else.
Nick Bennett [00:06:02]:
So it started out as leadership coaching, this idea of dynam dynamic leadership. And then it transitioned into the dynamic agency in leadership. And being a dynamic leader, it just was one component of it. So it kind of grew up a little bit. Like, talk me through your mindset shift in terms of one just being okay with evolving it. Because some people are just find themselves really stuck in, like, this is the thing and I can't change it. Everyone will know.
Chris Dubois [00:06:28]:
So I kind of hope that everyone would know so that it would be a talking point, more people would start conversations with me to drive some business. But I think there was definitely a hesitancy where, like, I really didn't want to drop the leadership piece. But I realized at some point through it that everyone needs leadership. Like, even agencies need leadership coaching. Most agency owners are accidentally in that position. And so being able to help them run their business do the marketing, do you know their entire go to market? How do we design this agency in a way that you're actually going to live the life that you want while hitting all those results? But like, part of that is being able to lead a team. And so I'm like, what is more important, that I'm seen as a leadership expert or that I'm actually helping people to be better leaders? And that latter one kind of took hold. But I got to maintain all my same philosophies around, like, dynamic leadership is just this idea that there is no one perfect way to do things.
Chris Dubois [00:07:20]:
Like, the leaders that I saw in the army that were crushing it everywhere they went, were able to go into the organization, be super self aware and like look at the situation, look at their team, right? All these other things and be able to say, okay, who do I need to become in order to provide this team with exactly what they need in order to be successful? And then they kept crushing it everywhere they go. And so with the Dynamic Agency OS same thing, right? There is no one perfect way to run an agency. You'll get a lot of people telling you you have to do it this way. But like, I have agencies that I coach right now where one founder said, I have no life, right? I just, I have a girlfriend. We don't spend that much time hanging out. So I'm good working 70, 80 hours a week right now so I don't have to do it later. It's like, all right, let's go hard. Someone else, same age, same general situation.
Chris Dubois [00:08:06]:
She said, I really want to maintain my lifestyle as I build this up. I would not like to work more than 30 hours a week. And it's like, all right, well how do we design an agency in order to do that? Because there's completely different paths. And so I think the important piece for me was just realizing that I can maintain some of my philosophies on there never being one way and not having to really worry about like, I'm still giving people what they need with a leadership side. And so I never actually got rid of it. It just might not be what I'm known for.
Nick Bennett [00:08:32]:
I'm sure along the way there were things that you were second guessing trying to gain some of that initial traction. What were some of those things? How'd you work through that?
Chris Dubois [00:08:40]:
What got me to officially like say I'm doing this full time was I talked to my wife, we figured out some budgeting and we said if I had a contract for this much money right now, then we can go with that. It's a sign that, you know, we can take this approach and just leave all caution to the wind. And that afternoon, out of the blue, someone reached out with that exact amount and said, would you be willing to work with me for this? I'm like, yes. Right. Like, probably important to note. I have, like, other revenue streams coming in. Right. I'm not just saying, okay, living off a 3K.
Chris Dubois [00:09:11]:
Yeah, that would be two kids do that. I mean, the kids don't eat, and so. And we put them to work doing stuff.
Nick Bennett [00:09:16]:
But that's true.
Chris Dubois [00:09:17]:
That was, like, the start. And then I was like, okay, so we know what the targets are. We know, you know, I need to grow. There have definitely been some months that it was like, man, 3k would be nice right now to bring those up. And so there were a lot of months of, like, questioning, is this actually the right approach? Like, I do have a family to take care of. I do have all these other things. I've been financially responsible up to this point, so I got plenty of wiggle room, like, plenty of open credit cards that if I needed to rely on, I could. Obviously, it never feels good, but it's like, I knew I could grind it out if I had to.
Chris Dubois [00:09:49]:
And so I called you a couple times to be like, hey, man, is this the right thing? Like, well, let's talk. Let's figure it out. Fortunately, gritted through those. Some of those low months, and then it just clicked like, something, and it actually was exactly what you said would happen. As soon as that one domino fell, it was like, boom. Everything just kept lining up. And now, like, I'm at the point where I almost can't take on more clients because I'm going to have to start sacrificing other parts of life, which then kills the whole reason I was doing this on my own anyways.
Nick Bennett [00:10:16]:
Yeah, it's funny how, like, it is. What are they? It's darkest before the dawn, right? You're like, I don't know what the hell's going on here. Then all of a sudden, one hits, then the other hits. How did you acquire that first client? What was that first domino? How did you get that client?
Chris Dubois [00:10:28]:
First domino, client.
Nick Bennett [00:10:30]:
There's a lot of little onesie twosy things in the beginning that you're like, oh, I'll do a little bit of web work here. Oh, like. Cause I think that's important to know, right? You were doing a little bit of web work for people. You were trying to do a bunch of different things. You were still Making money. It just wasn't kind of the main thing that you were trying to do, which was help agencies. Where did that client, like really come from? Where was that domino client? How did you get them?
Chris Dubois [00:10:51]:
I actually think it came from the All In Agency Summit, which actually is probably a helpful tip for your audience too. Just when I left my agency, I had no list. It was like, every contact that I have has to stay here. I have to go actually, like, build up my own list. And so as I was thinking through things, I'm like, well, how could I quickly get in front of an audience to be able to do this? But nobody's going to bring you on their stage. There's no reason to bring me on if I have no credibility. And so I'm like, well, I'll create my own stage and I'm going to find other experts to show up. If they all market it.
Chris Dubois [00:11:22]:
It worked out because then we went very quickly from have I had zero on my list to like a couple hundred. And through that, like, you introduced me to a couple people. They introduced me to people. And it's like it just kept going down the road where now I have, I'm getting referrals from other agency coaches who are either full on work or they're like, hey, they're too small of a client for me and stuff. And it was all because I built up this platform of just sharing and like, wanting to get other people involved in this. And so through it, I realized one of my, like, other core philosophies is that I only want to play positive some games and like, if there has to be a way for me to win, the other person to win and then our client to win. If I can't see all of those, it's not a partnership I want to be involved in. So the number of LinkedIn, like, DMs that are like, I want to partner with you, it's like, you don't know me, right? We're not going to do this because really you just want leads not working that way.
Chris Dubois [00:12:17]:
But by sharing the stage, like, I just launched Dynamic Agency Community, I'm letting in coaches, like everyone that I can get in there just to have the conversation. So I can now pair up all of these people who have agency questions with the people who have agency answers. And it's like, I don't care if the competition piece is gone because hopefully my goodwill brings everyone, like, back to me at some point.
Nick Bennett [00:12:39]:
Dude, 100, man, 100. One of the first things someone said to me, I had Max trailer on the second episode of this show. And people were like, isn't Max like a direct competitor? You know, it's like, no, not at all.
Chris Dubois [00:12:53]:
Right.
Nick Bennett [00:12:53]:
Like, if people want what Max has, and this is when he was serving consultants more than agencies. Now he's serving more agencies.
Chris Dubois [00:13:00]:
Now it's my competitor. I share a stage with him multiple times. I keep bringing them on.
Nick Bennett [00:13:04]:
Yeah. If people want what he has, they don't want to work with me. And vice versa. Like, yeah, first of all, and I tell this to everyone who gets like, a little bent out of shape on, like, I don't really know how to navigate the competitor thing is like, I have nothing but love and respect for anyone trying to make a difference for solopreneurs. I just had Joe Daniels on and he just launched a company called Niche Builder that's designed to help solopreneurs niche down. I'm like, dude, nobody knows this space better than me, man. Like, how can I help you? Like, what can I, what can I share with you? Questions do you have? Like, I have nothing but love and respect for people who are trying to make a difference, especially for the same people I'm trying to make a difference for. And that, like you said, positive Sum game makes a massive difference in your ability to find people to work with and grow and grow your network and build strong relationships with them.
Nick Bennett [00:13:54]:
I can't stress this enough. For some reason, there's this, like, there's this mental hurdle on the relationship building side of this game. And one of the things we talked about a lot was like, start as many conversations as you possibly can and build as many relationships and turn those into relationships. Build as many relationships as you possibly can because that's where the difference is going to be. We're not in the traffic business. It's like, how much can you post to LinkedIn and, and get likes and shares? Like, that is a means to starting conversations, not someone hitting in the checkout in our business. It is in plenty of businesses, but not ours.
Chris Dubois [00:14:31]:
Yeah, I mean, we were talking right before this. I've got so many, like, agency potential agency coaches, right? People who are looking to get into the space who are following me, engaging with my content. But one of them got into, like, got into my DMs and just asked for some advice, just expecting me to give them, you know, a little pig, go read this book or something. But I actually worked with him and he was like, he wants to be an agency operations coach. He gave me his little pitch. I'm like, that sounds like every other agency operations coach, here's how we could take tear that apart, right? And we, like, broke it down. We found, like, we named the problem and like, we framed it for him and then I gave it and he's like, whoa, you're really good at this. Like, I did not expect that level of, like, advice and feedback from this.
Chris Dubois [00:15:13]:
I really appreciate that. It's like, hopefully he goes off and he's going to find someone who's like, yeah, I don't know what to do with my go to market strategy. And like, oh, I know exactly who you should talk to.
Nick Bennett [00:15:23]:
He's very generous and knowledgeable, right?
Chris Dubois [00:15:26]:
He's going to give you free feedback.
Nick Bennett [00:15:28]:
Dude, I was talking to. I was talking to Erica Schneider about this. This morning we recorded our private podcast for the Full Stack Solo people. And we were talking about working for free. And it comes in these, like, weird and random ways and sometimes you don't have. It's just like a gut check thing. Like, you didn't have to. You could have charged this person.
Nick Bennett [00:15:48]:
You didn't have to do it at all. You know, you can't pick my brain or whatever. You could have just sent them a LinkedIn DM with a book recommendation. But, like, for some reason you felt compelled to do it. And it's those things that make a difference in the very long term. You probably won't see a return on that one for a while. But that's not really the point. It's like you just kind of know.
Nick Bennett [00:16:09]:
I don't know. I wish I could explain it better than that, but there's. Sometimes you're like, I'm just going to do this thing. I have no way of quantifying when or why, but sometimes you just get that feeling and you're like, I'm just going to help this person. I'm just going to do this thing. And I think. Because I think it's the right thing to do and hey, maybe it'll come back around eventually. And sometimes I'd say most of the time it does.
Chris Dubois [00:16:32]:
I mean, you said it earlier, like, if you can just help anyone within your space, it's awesome, right? So, like, my thinking is if I can just get more people to the market, more people will show up at my stall, right? Like, how many people in their space actually just try marketing the industry? Like the agency coaching industry, right? The whatever industry of coaching. Just market this space and see how many more people you can get involved and built up. Because just by doing that, you're expanding this pie. So Even if you only have a small sliver, your sliver just grew in size because the entire pie grew. And so it's like, it's a completely different way of thinking, but it's like it's a real thing you can, you can do. I mean I, I am living proof that you can run it this way. It just got another referral from another agency coach who just appreciate we, we've run some events together. They just reached out and said, hey, I think you'd be a better fit for this person.
Chris Dubois [00:17:24]:
Like, here you go.
Nick Bennett [00:17:25]:
And this is a testament to two things. One, the whole relationship building piece of this and two, being known for an expertise that you own. How else would an agency coach be able to refer an agency to you if they were like, it's easy to refer because you own some mind share. It's like, hey, Chris does this really specific thing. He, he creates dynamic agencies, focuses heavily on like offer creation for agencies like, oh cool, like lead gen offers, like all of those types of things. Like, that's where he's going to focus. Whereas like someone like Max, he's like, I expand existing accounts. Very simple to know when to reach out to some of these people.
Nick Bennett [00:18:01]:
And that is very hard for people to wrap their heads around.
Chris Dubois [00:18:04]:
I don't do this in my CRM. I probably should. That's one of those like, you know when you give advice to your clients and then you never actually follow it. It's like, update the CRM. But I have like notes in one of my notion folders. Just all of the competitors, right? Using air quotes for anyone listening and who do they actually serve? So that when someone comes to me and they're not a great fit, it's easy for me to send them over and just, hey, I know exactly who you should talk to. Here you go. I'm only helping everybody.
Chris Dubois [00:18:32]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:18:32]:
Oh yeah. I do the same thing with my HubSpot notes. Like, because when someone says they're looking for someone that specializes in X, Y or Z, just type that into HubSpot notes. Find the person who I know who does that thing.
Chris Dubois [00:18:43]:
You're better with your CRM than I.
Nick Bennett [00:18:44]:
Am sometimes, Sometimes I think there's something to be said though. You were talking about like when more agency coaches enter the space and like the whole pie expands. Like the category expansion is a very real thing and it's like a fine line between supply exceeds demand. Like there are more SaaS consultants than there are SaaS companies now. So, you know, the math might not math too well on that. One, I think the agency space is definitely very crowded, which is why the niche down is so important.
Chris Dubois [00:19:14]:
Yep.
Nick Bennett [00:19:15]:
But category expansion is key because if the category is growing, I mean, well, that's a good sign for long term stability for your business. But the more people that keep entering the spaces is it can be a bad thing if you're not very different. But yeah, it's for people like us who are known for a thing, it makes life really easy.
Chris Dubois [00:19:36]:
So I have a theory. I'm calling it the democratization of expertise. And similar to the democratization of knowledge where as soon as knowledge was more readily accessible and you didn't have gatekeepers everywhere, people learned how to read. They didn't have to talk to God by going through their priest. Right. They could actually do, do all of this stuff on their own and start learning things. Eventually that led to, well, all of the expansion that we've had technologically and you know, through all these innovations. But now with the democratization of expertise, anyone with a laptop and an Internet connection can become an expert.
Chris Dubois [00:20:11]:
Right. There are no gatekeepers. You can go sit down and learn a skill and then start selling it and become an expert in that by getting the repetitions. Because of that, we've now gone from go find an expert to go find the right expert. Right. Where there are like levels of expertise. And so it is confusing for, for like the buyer because it's not just, oh, I need to find a coach in this, it's like, I have to find the right coach in this. Right.
Chris Dubois [00:20:34]:
The market has, has shifted. Like I literally just talked to someone. He has hired three other coaches that I know in the past and he's worked with them and he's gone through their program, he's gotten results and then he moves on to the next coach. And that's not abnormal with it. I had multiple coaches when I was running an agency. So even just knowing that it's not a one and done, you're not going to hire a coach and be with them forever. Right. At some point you're going to have a different problem set and finding the right coach for that set is going to be more critical.
Chris Dubois [00:21:03]:
And so you shake hands. Thanks. Here's a great testimonial. And then you go find that next coach and hopefully all the coaches are buddies and they can refer you to the best one. So when you have to go find the exact coach you need, you can find one. You don't have to go sort through these multiple levels of expertise.
Nick Bennett [00:21:20]:
100%. I also think there's a lot to be said for. Are some people going to Google agency coach? Totally. But the whole, like, go out there and create demand thing, like, you can go out and make the problem that you solve, like the specific problem that you solve highly visible to people, right? And get people to opt into the way that you see the world, which is very different from the way that all of the other agency coaches see the world. And if someone says, like, I believe that we should become a dynamic agency, it's like there's no other person on the planet who can help people do that. So the approach is become mission critical. This is something I've always known this and I haven't really talked much about it and I haven't even necessarily baked it into the thing in the way that I teach it. I've always focused on the mechanics of how the job gets done.
Nick Bennett [00:22:07]:
But as more time goes on, the approach becomes more and more necessary. It's like, what are your unique frameworks? How do you codify your thinking in a way that someone says, okay, if we hire Chris, we're getting the Dynamic Agency Operating System, like, it's very clear what we're going to get versus if we hire someone else. We're going to get their approach and we have to decide how we want to grow, what do we think is going to make a difference for our business.
Chris Dubois [00:22:33]:
And even just spelling it out in your offer and this is something like, I mean, you, you do this stuff with all the people you coach, right? And everyone in your community, like, that offer is way more important than anyone knows, right? Being able to say, this is what we do, what we actually provide you when you start working with us, that's what really moves the needle in the actual results, right? I can make all the promises I want, but how I get there is pretty important. That's also what differentiates you. And so when we're looking at like first stage, I think problem solution proof, right? Like, I just need to make sure I have a problem and I have a potential solution for it and that it works. And let's just speak in general terms here, but the next step from there is really like, offer market match. Let's make sure that you're not going out to the like, the greater market and just saying, like, hey, I have this. Who wants it? It's like, no, you need some evidence that it works, right? Like, you have to actually go put it in front of someone, give that offer one on one where you can go like, knock on doors and just say, hey, is this Something that's useful to you. I see you have these problems, right? We've talked, we've learned all of these things about each other. Is this something you would like? And if that offer is great, they're going to say yes.
Chris Dubois [00:23:37]:
That's what starts your little reputation engine. And once that gets firing, you now have more content that you can be using. As you get into refining your message to put it out there en masse and you have evidence of what you're doing, you've learned stuff, hopefully through running those first clients to say, this works, this doesn't work. I can't frame it like this because they don't understand. Right. And then you can actually present something that is super valuable to the greater market market.
Nick Bennett [00:24:04]:
Method match. Is that what you called it?
Chris Dubois [00:24:06]:
Message market fit.
Nick Bennett [00:24:07]:
Message market Fit. So I call it. So we have a similar framework, which is Problem access fit.
Chris Dubois [00:24:14]:
Yeah, that. That's what it was. But we both agree that the access piece is the critical component.
Nick Bennett [00:24:19]:
Dude, I can't tell you how many people I know want to coach agencies, and they don't have access to agencies. When we first met, I was like, you're one of the few people, I think, who are very qualified to coach agencies. Because you were the CEO of an agency, you have access points. This is a huge hurdle for a lot of people. It's like, oh, I want to coach. I want to be a consultant for tech companies. Like, do you have access to tech companies? So problem access fit is. Is key access to the people that you're trying to sell your stuff to.
Chris Dubois [00:24:49]:
I mean, I have a client right now who's been all over the place in the past with who they're. They're working with. And so we want to get a lot more clear on their icp, right? We need that one audience. And so we wanted to go into a specific area. And so the first question was, who do you know in that area that can give you access to everyone else in this area? And so you had to go back and, like, actually go through, you know, like his CRM and through his LinkedIn contacts. And he found a couple. And through those conversations, it jump started multiple other proposals that are in process. And it's like, that's all we had to do.
Chris Dubois [00:25:21]:
Right? We didn't even create a new offer yet, but I literally just got him to take what he currently has and go talk to people. And now he can start reframing all of those and put a very custom offer in front of him. But it was just such a simple Thing just get access. And that's one of those things that it's a whole reason I set up my community was not for conversations. Right. Nobody wants a new community. Like there's so many out there. But when you have access within that community, right, Access to coaches, access to other peers who have done it before, and you just access to resources that have actually been used to help agencies grow.
Chris Dubois [00:25:55]:
Like, people want access, they pay for access. And so like, that is one of those critical components that I think is missing from a lot of people's game plans.
Nick Bennett [00:26:03]:
This person's success that you're describing, their ability to become successful, also relied on them making the ask. So there are a lot of people that could have access, but they're too afraid to ask or go create it. So like in your personal example of how you built this business, you're like, well, I like need a list. I need access to agencies. So I made an agency summit. Like, I just made this thing up. I got a few people and we made something work. And then with through that you built relationships with people who also had connections to other people within the agency space.
Nick Bennett [00:26:39]:
And you kind of just like keep peeling the onion. You just went out and asked this example of your own client. It's like, cool. If we want to break into manufacturing, who do we know? Well, we know person A, person B, and person C. It's like, cool, well, let's go ask that person for some help. And that right there is where people go. I'd rather not like in defense mode or like you're on your back foot when you go and ask, your hat in hand, tail tucked.
Chris Dubois [00:27:03]:
Yeah, it's probably a status issue, right? Like if they say no, you feel like there's a status lowering effect. And on nearly everything people do is like tied back to status. And on some level, the things we purchase, the things, the actions we take with people we know, it all comes back to status. And so I think that's probably the I don't want to be in this status lowering situation. But yeah, it's the only way to, to win is take those risks.
Nick Bennett [00:27:27]:
Yeah, I feel like they feel like, oh, well, if I'm asking for something, I must not have enough business or I must not be good enough to get my own. Like, what people don't realize is that it is all relationship based. Like it's kind of back to the same core theme. Everything is relationship based.
Chris Dubois [00:27:45]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:27:46]:
When you get your first free, your first customers, like the first time I ran my playbook, one of my friends who was doing this, who's been out on his own longer than I was. And I was like, hey, how did you. What are you doing? How are you doing it? What's going on? And he told me a couple of things. Like, hey, I think I can help. Like, let me. Can I show you what I've been working on? He's like, sure, of course. No problem. He made a difference for him.
Nick Bennett [00:28:06]:
It's like, cool. Can I get a quick testimonial on this thing? He's, like, super hyped on it. All this stuff. It's like, all this stuff goes a really, really long way. But it's like, how else are you gonna go. How else are you gonna do it, Especially if you don't have an audience?
Chris Dubois [00:28:18]:
So I had someone reach out last week who just said, hey, I don't have money to do this. I'm starting my own agency. Is there any way I could get some help from you? And so I said, let's just have a conversation about this. Turns out we're going to do, like, a rev share within, like, make sure his margins are good so that if he wins, I win. We're all good. But the only reason that I was willing to, like, do that type of thing was one, because he asked. I've worked with him before and stuff before he was going off to do his new thing. So, like, I know who he is, and I trust that it's going to be great.
Chris Dubois [00:28:52]:
Like, he had that ask, right? He could have. He literally apologized on the call and was like, I know you probably get asked by a lot of people to just do work for free. And I'm like, actually, no, Most people don't even ask, right? Like, they completely skip that. Not that I would say yes to everyone, but, like, that other guy that I just gave some advice to, it's like, he asked, why would I not just give something help and streamline my thoughts a lot.
Nick Bennett [00:29:16]:
Can you talk about a moment throughout all of this? Was there, like, a pivotal moment or decision in this whole process, in these last, like, year or so for you that impacted the direction of this business?
Chris Dubois [00:29:28]:
I think it was that realization that I am playing positive sum games. Like, really just having that and fully embracing it changed my outlook. And I kind of traced it back. I've had this belief forever. Like, even when I was in the army, my first couple of evaluations, when I got my little counseling from, you know, battalion commander, he was like, teamwork is probably your, like, one of your biggest traits for some reason in the Army. I don't understand why it's like this necessarily. But we get really competitive, right? Especially in the infantry. You get that much testosterone in one spot.
Chris Dubois [00:29:58]:
Everybody's competing. You'd have platoons competing against platoons all the time, companies against companies. And it's to the point where they're like, oh, I saw a good workout that they did and they're scoring really well on their PT test. And the other company will say, no, we're not doing that. That's what they do. It's like, yeah, but they're doing really well. You understand we're going to fight the same wars, right? Like, we're on the same team. At some point they might need us, we might need them, but it's like that just goes away.
Chris Dubois [00:30:22]:
So I just had this idea of like, they're doing something great. Why don't I share what I know, they share what they know, and now we can both be better. It didn't feel weird and stuff. And so that's just kind of played out here. But there was a moment at some point and I think it's because I was offered, it was like a partnership opportunity, but I would have had to essentially said no to everything else that came after that. And it was like, it felt very one sided. There was some upside for me, but it was like, but I'm potentially like anchoring myself in a way that I. I'll regret later.
Chris Dubois [00:30:54]:
And so I just said no. And then other opportunities popped up immediately afterwards and it was like, okay. Because there was no way for both of us to win as well as our client. It's like, maybe that was a reason I'm seeing more opportunities now. But I really do think the playing positive some games is what kind of set everything off for me. It's completely shifted the way I'm even looking at my business.
Nick Bennett [00:31:14]:
What's the motivation though? Why do you care so much?
Chris Dubois [00:31:17]:
I feel like my therapist could give you some.
Nick Bennett [00:31:21]:
No, let's bring her on.
Chris Dubois [00:31:22]:
Yeah. So I don't know, like, it just, it feels better at the end of the day to know that I have done what I could to help the most people that I could. I've had like this in the back of my head, this life goal of just helping like a million people recognize and realize their life potential. And it feels really cheesy, but like it feels really good when I help someone. I had a guy, I was in a group before and we were just like, just a men's group, right? You're just chatting, kind of giving advice and working through stuff, whatever. And there was one guy reached out of the blue and just shot me a note and said, hey, man, I just want to thank you. Like, talking to you and some of these other conversations we've had outside of the group. I am no longer on my heart medication.
Chris Dubois [00:32:06]:
My doctor can't believe that I'm. I'm getting fit. He's working out again. He started dating again. He's doing all of these things. He had gotten promotions in his job, and he's like, I really believe this is, like, because of some of the conversations we've had, and I appreciate it. And I spent the week just feeling, like, high. Like, I.
Chris Dubois [00:32:22]:
It was like, that's awesome. Like, I. I didn't mean to do that. I was talking to him because, like, he was helping me, too. Right? It wasn't just a, oh, I'm gonna go out of my way to help this guy. But, like, it just felt so good, and it's like, that's what I need more of. Like, just, how so how can I just keep helping people? And so at the end of the day, if I don't get the client or I don't see my bank account grow, but I got to help other people do it, it's like, all right, it's a. It's a win.
Chris Dubois [00:32:47]:
I prefer not to starve and have my kids starve, but at that point, I'll. I'll go find a job.
Nick Bennett [00:32:52]:
I totally agree. Like, it feels good to make a difference for anyone. Sometimes you look up and you're like, oh, like, this helps somebody. Like, you posted the other day that one of your clients was like, run rate, like a million or something, eight months. Boom. Like, it feels good to play a part in stuff like that. Just. It's okay.
Nick Bennett [00:33:14]:
That could be it. That could be the whole thing. It's just, like, I understand this business really well, and I think there's people here who need some help, and I would like to help. So you don't need a therapist?
Chris Dubois [00:33:24]:
Yeah, that's what I told him. He disagreed.
Nick Bennett [00:33:26]:
But, like, I just went on this podcast and this. And I felt like that really got to the core of what we were, what we've been working on here.
Chris Dubois [00:33:34]:
It's actually fun story. When I decided to try therapy, I went in and started talking to a therapist, and I'm like, check it out. I'm going to be your best patient. Right? Like, I'm going to you. We got something to work on. I am going to work on it, and I will.
Nick Bennett [00:33:46]:
I thought you were like, I have every. I have all the problems to work.
Chris Dubois [00:33:49]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:33:49]:
Like, there's so much here. I want to be here for years.
Chris Dubois [00:33:51]:
But I told him, like, I will win therapy. And then a year later, he actually came to one of the meetings. He's like, look, we have got done a lot of progress. Like, we're this feeling good. I don't know that I'm the right guy to help you keep advancing. I have some recommendations for other people that you can go work with. And so I. I asked, like, did I win therapy? And then he's like, yes, you won therapy.
Chris Dubois [00:34:14]:
And so I went into. I got another therapist went into him, and I said, check it out. I won therapy with my last guy. And so, like, let's figure this out. And he's like, we're probably gonna have to dive into that a little deeper.
Nick Bennett [00:34:25]:
I'm like, all right, now, you know you can win therapy.
Chris Dubois [00:34:28]:
You can, folks. There you have it.
Nick Bennett [00:34:30]:
There it is. Thanks for coming. Looking back, what is something you would have done differently?
Chris Dubois [00:34:38]:
Ooh, that's a good one. I think I would have. Okay. It would be impossible to know this in the past, and because everyone faces the same thing. Solomon's Paradox, right? You can give whatever advice you want to everybody else, but following it yourself is near impossible. It's just really hard. Like, every marketing agency knows they need to be marketing themselves, right? They have the skills, they're doing it for their clients, but they just don't do it for themselves. They rely on referrals and all these things.
Chris Dubois [00:35:05]:
And so the same things I was doing that I would tell my clients to go do. The CRM is one. Right? But it's like, I'm telling you to go do all these things, but I'm not doing it myself. And so realizing that, I started to ask myself questions as if I was my own coach and just figuring out that when I am on other people's podcasts, on other stages, I close clients. Like, that's where people aren't finding me from my podcast. They're not finding me on LinkedIn. They're engaging with all that content after they know of me. But I had to, like, backwards track that and then say, oh, I should be going on more shows.
Chris Dubois [00:35:38]:
It's not like it was a deliberate, like, look at, how are you marketing? How. What is your go to market? And how are you structuring this? And, like, that led to me figuring that out. And then I think that actually might have been one of the dominoes. Was the summit awesome for Getting on stages, but then getting on everyone else's stage and just growing that way. It's like literally every podcast that I'm on. And we were joking before, this might be the change, but every podcast I'm on, I close a client from. And so, yeah, it's not happening. Everyone listening.
Chris Dubois [00:36:03]:
Yeah, just scrap it. So Nick looks bad or make him look really good and just come work with me.
Nick Bennett [00:36:08]:
If you're an agency, I'll get my affiliate commission. Yeah, there is no affiliate commission.
Chris Dubois [00:36:15]:
We send lobsters from Maine. Yes. That would be everyone for a referral. Just one lobster.
Nick Bennett [00:36:19]:
One full lobster.
Chris Dubois [00:36:20]:
Yep. But, yeah, I think starting to take my own advice, like, I can help an agency design their business and then build their. Go to market, create their own offers. And I'm like, wait, what's my offer? And it was like, oh, I don't have a great offer. And then I created one and then tested it out. And I did the same things that I would go tell someone else to do. I just heeded that advice. Everything started working.
Nick Bennett [00:36:41]:
You know, there's. You call it Solomon's Paradox, which it probably is. I call it drinking your own whiskey.
Chris Dubois [00:36:51]:
I'm sober, so.
Nick Bennett [00:36:53]:
Well, I guess you're drinking your own apple juice.
Chris Dubois [00:36:55]:
There we go.
Nick Bennett [00:36:56]:
There you go.
Chris Dubois [00:36:57]:
Nice. Classy stuff.
Nick Bennett [00:36:58]:
Yeah, yeah. The good stuff, the Martinelli. Sometimes people don't realize that they're not doing it, or they're like. Like you said, the agency. Like, we're so busy, we can't just go market ourselves. It's like, I get. What do people say? The cobblers. Kids have no shoes.
Nick Bennett [00:37:12]:
All the same. All different ways to say.
Chris Dubois [00:37:14]:
Read the label from inside the jar.
Nick Bennett [00:37:16]:
All different ways to say the same thing once you realize that you're not drinking your own whiskey. Like, there were certain things early on where I was like, you gotta have this thing, gotta do this thing, gotta communicate in this way. And I was like, oh, I am not living that to the fullest extent that I possibly could be. So I need to go back and do that. There are very few hills I'm willing to die on when it comes to some of this work. But, like, there are some things where it's like, if I don't do it, there's literally no way that I can get someone else to do it.
Chris Dubois [00:37:49]:
And then you doing it creates evidence that it works as well. Right. Like, you get to see some of the ins and outs of all the advice that you're giving to know, like, oh, this is actually shit advice. I should not be telling you to do this. Like, it doesn't work when you can test that on yourself.
Nick Bennett [00:38:05]:
To circumvent in short circuit all the problems along the way. Like, oh, I've lived through this. I know how to prevent this from being a disaster because I've done it enough times. There's like that curve of the time to value and the number of times you've executed things. When you have done something one time, it takes the longest amount of time to create value. And the more you do it, the less time it takes. That's the whole reason for all of this. It's like, the more often I can run this play.
Nick Bennett [00:38:37]:
Starting with yourself, the easier it's going to get to figure it out or to. To create value. And oftentimes you realize, like, I bloated this process. That was one of the things that I learned very early on after I, like, yeah, I'm. I'm working with solopreneur number like 15 at the time. And I was like, furiously ripping things out of my program. I was like, don't need this, don't need this. Like, this didn't amount to the thing I wanted to, like, this work was just like a tangent.
Nick Bennett [00:39:05]:
It set us off in this other direction. And it was a nice to have. We didn't need us. Like, and you get ruthless with your scope. You're like, these are only the things that I need in order to get to the result. And then it's like, all right, now this is basically airtight. Run that play as many times as possible with making few changes. Because we've gotten there, and now it's like, okay, now we're just.
Nick Bennett [00:39:24]:
We have everything in place. And now it's like, how good can I get at doing this? Can I do it in six months? Can I do it in three months? Can I do it in two months? Can I do it in 2 weeks? Like, how far can you push it in terms of the time delay?
Chris Dubois [00:39:38]:
Right? It's like that gets back to the. The levels of expertise, right? Like a newer expert is going to take that time. They got to run you through all these different process because they can't spot the patterns as fast. But when you realize where those patterns are actually originating from within your work, you can get rid of everything else, right? We get separate the 80%, so we have the 20% that actually makes a difference. And now you can look at that, spot the patterns, and just rapidly get through this. It's like the plumber who, you know, taps on a pipe, fixes it, still charges you the same amount because he can see the patterns. He knows how to do this. It's the same thing.
Chris Dubois [00:40:10]:
You know what we're doing. When you can look at someone's business, say, I know these things aren't working for you just by looking at your numbers. Right. I know you're probably struggling with X, Y and Z. Like, that's not because I'm an expert. It's because I'm an expert who has done so many reps solving for this problem. And so which again, why you want to anchor to a specific problem is because you're going to get more reps in that problem. Rather than saying, I'm an expert in all of these things, it's like, well, now you're doing like 20 different things.
Chris Dubois [00:40:38]:
You can only get so many reps in like such a span of time as you can. That was a weird sentence, but I can't do 20 things at once. But I can do one thing 20 times in that same timeframe. And so if I do that one thing 20 times. You were great. I had a first sergeant who had a, a saying that you can learn. There are two ways to learn anything fast, and it's blunt force trauma and repetition. It's like, I think we all prefer the latter on this.
Chris Dubois [00:41:04]:
And yet I think a lot of people need that blunt force trauma in order to realize they have to go to the repetition.
Nick Bennett [00:41:09]:
I think the saying is, you know, $1 to turn the screw, $9,999 to know what screw to turn.
Chris Dubois [00:41:19]:
Right.
Nick Bennett [00:41:20]:
I think that that really sums it up. Well, I mean, look, the other thing is that when you're early on in this thing, like I was charging people 500 fucking dollars a month. Like, it wasn't like, know what you're worth and charge premium prices. It's like, sometimes you just gotta figure it out. Sometimes, like, it's too. It's very risky for people to work with you at certain stages or whatever the thing is. Or like, it's hard to say. There's a million variables that go into this that will change this.
Nick Bennett [00:41:48]:
But like, it wasn't beneath me, I think. And to run that play at that rate, to be able to figure out, to be able to get the program to where it is, to the point where I can charge $15,000 for to do it, to charge $20,000 to do it today. And it's just a different experience.
Chris Dubois [00:42:09]:
Right? And so, like, I took that same play, like coached by you to run the, like, ascension model for coaching. Get someone in the door At a lower price point. While I'm still figuring out how do I want to execute on this. The first client that I ran on that play was 500 bucks a month. We're now at 6,000 bucks a month for the same work. And it's like, because I'm one, I'm helping him win, right? So my pay keeps going up, but, like, I'm doing the same things that I was doing before, but now I really know what wins and how to run that. And I can go execute this for any of my other clients. And I'm starting them at a much higher rate and just working it that way.
Chris Dubois [00:42:44]:
And it's. Yeah, it's great.
Nick Bennett [00:42:46]:
It just rewires your brain. I think it's like the next step after free. It's like, get in at a lower rate. Help manage risk appropriately. Also create opportunity to capture some of the value that you create to be able to get to where you're trying to go. So I think that pricing model works to get people off the ground. And then once you know, okay, on average, this is the size of the prize, on average, like, this is how much people are going to make from this thing. They can go from this rate to this rate in this amount of time.
Nick Bennett [00:43:14]:
I can realistically charge X percentage of that outcome. So I'm just going to charge that versus trying to capture it after you create it and all those things. But all of that stuff comes with time. Either way, there's a million ways to get there. And I don't think there's a wrong one. You just got to take some lumps. As my friend Max Traylor says. Yeah, take your arms.
Chris Dubois [00:43:39]:
One of the plays that I run with my agencies clients is what we call the case study plan. And so you anchor someone at the rate that you would actually want to charge. Right. The highest price you'd want to, but then you give it to them for a lower rate that you know, fits within their budget. And you're giving them some of the things at the higher rate, but you're making them promise you a video testimonial assistance with a case study. All of these other things that you can use to build up your reputation, engineering to now put those out there and help create more clients. And when you discount your services, right. Feels cheap.
Chris Dubois [00:44:11]:
Everything feels a little cheaper, less valuable if you discount. But if you say, we're going to lower the price, but only because you're also giving me these things when you say that, they're like, oh, I'm still giving you something it doesn't like, mentally, we're not actually limiting the value. We're just changing how you're exchanging this, the currency, and it completely shifts it. And then you end up with a lot of great testimonials that the client is happy to give you. And they're actually participating in building all these things and giving you every piece of data that you're asking for and doing all these things. And so, yeah, it's just super helpful. Run the plan a lot.
Nick Bennett [00:44:46]:
This for that is definitely the part of the pricing strategy that some people don't. They're like, can we do it for five grand? And you're like, sure. Versus being like, sure. But we're not going to do these five other things.
Chris Dubois [00:45:01]:
That comes down to the offer, right? Like, yeah, I can do it for 5k, but I also need you to give me this and just throw these things in. And now we've haggled, right? We've negotiated this deal. You gave me some cheese, and so I'm going to give you a bed for the night.
Nick Bennett [00:45:14]:
That's how that works. You just need some cheese.
Chris Dubois [00:45:16]:
And I'll take cheese almost anytime. Like, I'm a fan of cheese and cheese.
Nick Bennett [00:45:21]:
Give me some cheese and you got a place to sleep.
Chris Dubois [00:45:23]:
We'll. We'll do agency coaching for cheese.
Nick Bennett [00:45:25]:
For cheese. Okay, good. Matt, now you've got some deals off of this podcast. Chris, let's. Let's end here, man. What do you want to build that you haven't built yet? What is next for the Dynamic Agency?
Chris Dubois [00:45:38]:
That's a good question. So I think the couple I'm building up the community, it's still fresh, but it's a low ticket offer right now for like 97 a year. Just get people in, like tons of value. I'm also working to slowly build up this agencyjobhub.com and that's a completely free. There is no currency exchange period. I want agencies to have a place where they can find people looking for jobs that are only interested in agency jobs. Because I used to go to like, indeed, right? And you put up your job posting on Indeed. And then you get slammed with a thousand people who just click the quick apply and they don't even know what an agency is.
Chris Dubois [00:46:16]:
And you're like, I have to sort through this garbage. But we've got a growing list of people who only want agency work who are going to be notified when you post on there. We're starting to get some agencies posting. There are people hiring. It's all free. I don't know how to make that part clear. Like, I'm not getting anything from this. There's no ads on the site, there's nothing.
Chris Dubois [00:46:35]:
But anyways, I'm doing those things. But I think the real thing that I want to build. This actually came to me at like 3am last night. I was like, you know what? You have a DIY offer, you got a done with you offer, coaching, you don't have it done for you offer. What would that look like? And so right now I'm just playing through. What would it look like if an agency came to me and said, I just want you to design my agency, give me a go to market, give me the offer, give me everything and I can just do it. And I just do. I have all my playbooks, I have everything.
Chris Dubois [00:47:06]:
I run one interview, hopefully get everything I need from you, and then I just go build it. And so like, there's a lot of things that can go wrong with that. And so it takes a little more thinking through, but I think that's one of the next things I'm going to be modeling out. How could I just do this one on one Done for you. Here you go. Go be successful.
Nick Bennett [00:47:26]:
This is what we call the Super Ding Dong offer. The Super Ding Dong offer is great because if it's 50 grand in elevates the coaching offer.
Chris Dubois [00:47:39]:
Right. You anchor them. Everything else looks a little more valuable.
Nick Bennett [00:47:42]:
How do you sell a $5,000 watch put next to a $50,000 watch? You anchor them there and then even if you never sell it, I think this is one of the things. It's like create this thing to help people perceive the value within all the other things. The super Ding Dong offer is a great deal.
Chris Dubois [00:48:00]:
Yep.
Nick Bennett [00:48:00]:
I think you should charge 50 grand for that.
Chris Dubois [00:48:02]:
Maybe even more.
Nick Bennett [00:48:04]:
We'll say 106 figures.
Chris Dubois [00:48:06]:
Depends how I'm feeling that day. Case study plan. I'll give it to them for some cheese.
Nick Bennett [00:48:09]:
So yeah, 100 grand, but you'll get it for some cheese. In all seriousness, I do agree that is a piece of advice that I've given to a lot of people that I have not seen through on my own business up until recently. And that offer is not even necessarily fully published. It does exist. Like if you wanted to hire me for a done for you thing, it does exist, but it is not published. And I think this was the whole motivation I needed to just put that bad boy together.
Chris Dubois [00:48:36]:
Here we go. We'll see who can get theirs up first.
Nick Bennett [00:48:39]:
I don't know. I mean, it depends on how much cheese you got.
Chris Dubois [00:48:43]:
Not enough, Never enough.
Nick Bennett [00:48:44]:
You're never gonna live that one down. You're never gonna live that one down.
Chris Dubois [00:48:49]:
If anyone reaches out to me from the show and adds the word cheese in their email or free 30 minutes of coaching, yeah, I'll throw in something.
Nick Bennett [00:48:57]:
Don't take my word for it. I made that up. Chris, thank you for coming on the show, man. It's always fun to jam with you. I appreciate it. I know more people feel seen on their own route because of it, so I'm excited for what you got going on, man. I'm excited to see what else you do.
Chris Dubois [00:49:11]:
Awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Nick Bennett [00:49:18]:
Hey Nick, again, and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1000 Routes newsletter where I press process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new and different future for your own business. You can sign up@1000routes.com or check the link in the show notes. If you were to leave Earth tonight on a rocket ship, go to Mars to live forever, what would be your last meal on Earth?
Chris Dubois [00:49:54]:
Probably just a ribeye. Just that. Don't need any sides. Just put enough meat, then I'm satisfied. At the end I got to try this reverse searing thing. My wife told me it's a thing.
Nick Bennett [00:50:04]:
Have you ever done the Pittsburgh style? Pittsburgh style is next level.
Chris Dubois [00:50:07]:
Pittsburgh style.
Nick Bennett [00:50:09]:
It's when they sear the out on one side and it kind of like cooks through that way and then they flip it over and they like kind of cook the other side a little bit. Pittsburgh style. If you like a nice crispy ribeye. Next time you go out to a fancy steak place, order your ribeye Pittsburgh style.
Chris Dubois [00:50:27]:
I'll try that.