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The voice of the American Consortium for Equity in Education at ace-ed.org | Host Larry Jacobs facilitates rich discussions with innovative educators, thought leaders, authors and the leaders within the education industry to promote equity, access and opportunity for every student in every school.
I'm David Cicero, and this
is Education Talk Radio.
Now, over a few episodes so far,
we've been exploring a common
theme from different angles.
Alexander Copleman challenged
us to think about who children
are becoming beyond achievement.
Jen Perry challenged us to
think about relationships,
belonging, and understanding the
students sitting in front of us.
Now, taken together, those conversations
raise an important question.
If we truly believe learners are
unique, variable, and deserving
of meaningful opportunities,
how should we design learning
environments that reflect that belief?
Today's conversation explores one
possible answer, Universal Design
for Learning, or UDL, a framework
developed by CAST that asks what happens
when we design learning with learner
variability in mind from the start.
We'll also talk about UDL-Con Live
Online, CAST's virtual conference
taking place July 21st through the 22nd.
It's an opportunity to connect with
educators, researchers, leaders, students,
and innovators from around the world who
are exploring these ideas in practice.
If you'd like to learn more or
register, visit udlcon.cast.org.
To explore these questions, my guests are
Christine Fox, Chief Growth and Innovation
Officer at CAST, and Neil Albero,
Professional Learning Specialist at CAST.
Christine, Neil, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having us.
So great to join you.
So just to, just to kick us off, Neil,
for listeners who may only know UDL
at a surface level, can you spend a
bit explaining what it is and what
kind of impact it's designed to make?
David, in your intro,
you really nailed this.
Um, you talked about learner variability,
that every learner is different in the
ways that they process information, what's
going to engage them, uh, in the ways
that they can communicate and express.
And through the learning sciences, CAST
has researched and understands that
variability and what we need to pay
attention to as instructional designers
to be able to meet that variability, to
be able to create a place where every
learner has access, and every learner is
supported in their agency as learners.
So you named it.
It's about variability, and
the CAST guidelines tell us
what we pay attention to.
So when you think about it, I just
want-- I can sum UDL up so beautifully
in three words, and these three words
are plastered all over the Universal
Design for Learning guidelines.
How can we design so every learner has
access to the learning the way that
they walk in, the way that they come
to us with their background knowledge,
experiences, and interests at heart?
How can we design for them?
How do we design to support their
agency, their, the power that they
can bring over the learning to explore
their interests and personal goals?
And then what are the barriers?
What are the barriers that typical
curriculum or written curriculum or
the current, you know, state of the
way learning happens in our schools,
what are those barriers that we can
remove so that every learner can
achieve that goal of access and agency?
Interesting framework.
It almost sounds like if I, if I'm,
if I'm learning this correctly from
you- We as educators are embracing
that variability, and that in turn
allows them to em-embrace it as well.
Now, UDL has been around for, for decades
and, and Christine, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
ask you this one, and CAST continues
to refine and advance the framework.
What have we learned about learner
variability over time, and how has that
changed the way educators and systems
think about learning, would you say?
So building on what Neil had shared,
you know, every brain is u-unique as
our fingerprints, and when we look at
neuroscience and thinking about the brain
and its different functions, um, we have
to, again, reiterating there is no average
learner, but we have to design for all
those variable learning experiences.
Um, so inclusive practices are
just how schools, teachers, um,
educational opportunities do business.
Uh, and you know, the important part
about systems design and systems change
takes time and energy, um, and as when
we updated the UDL guidelines, um, in
the summer of 2024, we really looked at
thinking about the current educational
system, thinking about digital learning
opportunities, and how we had to address,
um, the different dynamics of the, the
socioeconomic, the cultural differences
of the students that we have in our room.
So as a former classroom teacher, when
I think of those 28, I think I had
third grade students, and I was, you
know, trying to teach to the middle in
the beginning, um, I wish I had this,
this framework and these guidelines
especially to really drive into that
variability, um, in considering those
as bonus opportunities to leverage and
ensure that every child had the, the
clearest path to success in schools.
And, and those bonus opportunities, it
kind of actually naturally leads to my,
to my next question for, for you also,
Christine, and that is, you know, I was
in the classroom, and I've been in, in
education in some form over the last 16
years or so, and I run into a lot of,
um, systems that they only think about,
um, I wouldn't say only, but where
you see accessibility accommodations
come up in a really obvious way is
in response to something going wrong,
you know, a learner not achieving
or reaching their full potential.
And it sounds like, or at least from my
research, that UDL positions accessibility
as the starting point, not the response.
So why should accessibility be the
starting point when we're designing
a learning environment instead of
waiting to respond to something?
So I liked how you phrased that.
Uh, we, I refer to it often
as the baseline of UDL.
You cannot have UDL without
accessibility and digital
accessibility, um, specifically.
You can have accessibility
without UDL, right?
But we need that, um, accessibility.
And in today's day and age where
most students have access to some
type of device, um, in through their
homes or through school, we're all
customizing all the time, right?
So, uh, it might be necessary assistive
technology for a student with an
IEP that they're able to use, um,
text-to-speech because of any specific
accommodation, like you're, like a
reactive, uh, potentially accommodation.
But there might be other students,
whether it's, um, dyslexia, ADHD, or just
personal preference, where listening to
the text can be more powerful for them.
Uh, and school systems have the
opportunity, most devices and/or
browsers have such features built
in, or they're purchasing some add-on
features of assistive technologies,
uh, for some students, but it can very
seamlessly be provided to all students.
Um, if the three of us had our phones
next to each other, we probably would
have different font size, different
background color, um, we'll have the
volume at a different level, and these
are just ways that we are making our
own accommodations for how we best
learn and interact with content.
And that's where school systems have that
opportunity to design digital learning
environments that are accessible to all,
um, regardless of an IEP or 504, but, but
addressing that variability as a norm.
It also sounds like what you're saying
is, so every, every school I've been
in, um, there, there's always, there's
always learner variability, of course,
and there's always responses to that.
Students walk in the door with
different histories, different,
different cultures, different talents,
different, different interests.
And like I mentioned before, we usually
do things in response to those things.
But it sounds like what you're saying
is there's an even greater opportunity
today because of technology and frameworks
and, and, and tools that we can actually
start that at the outset Um, and create
an environment where all students within
their variability can flourish instead
of maybe just, uh, a handful of outliers.
Is that what you're also getting at?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, um, you know, at one time when
certain tech features or accessibility
features were limited to those that
had a, um, you know, a specific
disability, now those features just
like, um, you know, texting on your
phone was an accessibility feature,
and everyone realized what a great
opportunity, um, this, this would be.
So, uh, being able to provide
those options is an incredible
way to have folks blossom.
Um, an example could even be a student
that, uh, needs to just voice text and
share their ideas because their brain
is moving so fast, and then they can
organize them and, and type them out.
So this digital learning space has
really opened up new opportunities
and new options for, um, educators.
And students Yeah, it's an
opportunity to, to think about
this in a completely different way.
How can we, again, start at the
outset designing around this?
Now, at the, at the ground level, Neil,
let's say I kind of wanna unpack what
this looks like for, for a teacher.
So let's say I walk into two schools.
One has really embraced
these ideas, and one hasn't.
Where would the differences show up first?
Maybe in students, classrooms,
or somewhere else entirely?
Well, let me build on your last
conversation, David, uh, with
Christine, and just say it starts in
the way that we position barriers.
Um, and that's what happens when we're
proactively designing for accessibility,
is that we look at curriculum and
not think about, um, what we're gonna
need to do to make a student be able
to get this, but how can we make it,
uh, most accessible from the outset?
So instead of labeling a
student as a barrier, we look
for barriers in the curriculum.
So that's the first
thing you would notice.
Um, y- we would notice that administrators
and teachers together are thinking
about if a situation arises, what
was the barrier that got in the way?
Not how would we react to
students that are ins- that
are, weren't successful first.
Yeah, we may need to do that.
We may need to remediate, or we may
need to get some support for students.
Um, we might need to break into
groups or, or alter the instruction.
But first we, we ask the
question, what was the barrier?
So that empowers us as educators
to have control over the
things that we can change.
We can change the curriculum, the way the
goals are presented, the way the materials
are, um, are presented to students, um,
the way that we, uh, look for assessment
and the types of assessments that we use,
creating multiple assessment opportunities
for students to communicate understanding.
So that's where the power of UDL
lies in, that educators kind of take
back that ownership of saying, "I
can control, and I can Um, adjust
the environment, I can adjust the
curriculum so that it can be more
accessible from the start for everyone.
That's where you'd notice it first.
What results from that really gets down to
the student level, which is so exciting.
You'll see teachers directing the
learning process for students.
So oftentimes UDL gets, uh, situated
with choices and multiple opportunities
at the end of a, you know, a unit
to d- demonstrate understanding.
But what we mostly see is teachers
saying, "What do students need
next in the learning process?"
Might it be they need to find
their relevance in this learning?
Might it be, wow, they're gonna
need feedback, or they should do
some goal setting and reflection.
Maybe they need to do some planning.
So fundamentally in classrooms, you see
students directing their own learning
through the learning process, and
teachers creatively saying, "Well,
how can we connect this to students?
What's gonna engage them more deeply?
What are the multiple ways
this could look like t- for
students to demonstrate success?"
Because that's how we embrace
and honor that variability.
So it starts with considering barriers in
that conversation, not about what's wrong
with learners, but what did we miss in
the environment that could be a barrier?
Let's problem solve over that,
and it results in students
controlling that learning process.
It's just fundamentally a different
conversation that builds student
agency and efficacy in their learning.
Can I- Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
Oh, sorry.
Can I add to that?
Um, I was, uh, Neil, I- I heard and
embraced so much of what you say, and
when we think about that curriculum
and the, the issues being with
potentially the content or the tool
that we're accessing the content with,
I actually wanna step back a little
bit further to the district leadership.
So you're right, the teachers in the
classroom are the ones, like one-on-one
with those students, and they're
looking at, um, you know, potential
barriers and how we can alleviate those
by adjusting or, um, or designing the
content accessible from the start.
But going up to the district leadership
sites is a, um, center that CAST hosts
from the Office of Special Education
Programs, the Center for Inclusive
Technology and Education Systems.
And we look at the district leaders.
How can you change those procurement
processes so the content, the
tools, the resources that you're
purchasing are accessible and
universally designed from the start?
So to make the job in the classroom
just that much, um, not easy, it's
not easy to be a classroom teacher
no matter the perfect content that
you have, but how can we drive change
at a systems level so that the, that
curriculum is less of a barrier in, in
the starting with universally designed
and accessible tools and resources?
Neil and, and Christine, both your
responses, uh, really hit home for me
as I watch the current narratives in,
in education right now, where we're
thinking about the technology that we're
using, uh, throughout our districts, and
we're wondering what purpose they serve.
And we're, we're, we're wanting to hone
in on that exact purpose and finding
the right tool for the right outcomes.
And in this case, it's does this
allow me to reduce the barriers to
learning that we've uncovered, right?
So we have this mindset of it's
not not outcomes first, right?
We have an outcome in mind, but then
we're saying, "Okay, if I'm holding
that student's hand moving forward,
we're gonna hit what barriers?
What are they?
Okay, so we need to account
for that in the curriculum."
And Christine, I'm so happy that you
brought up, um, technologies as well.
Keeping that lens on as we, as we
look to procure tools, uh, that we'll
be l- using in our classrooms, I
think that that is, that is right on.
And it's happening when we're thinking
about, uh, intervention softwares or math
or language arts softwares, keeping that
lens on of, hey, learner variability, what
are the barriers we've, we've identified
are there, and how does this help us
lead that student over that barrier?
Now, Neil, you, you mentioned, um,
learner agency, and that was a part
of a question I wanted to ask you.
And I think that A lot of
discussions around learner agency
can sound like students are simply
in control of their own learning.
And I don't think that that's
exactly the case in UDL.
So how do you think about the
relationship between learner
agency and teacher guidance?
Yeah, David, absolutely.
I love, I love that you're pairing
those two together, um, because when
we think about learner agency, we're
thinking about very specific, um,
practices that learners go through.
We want learners to become
and practice in our classrooms
being purposeful and reflective.
We want them practicing being
resourceful and authentic learners.
We want them practicing being
strategic and action-oriented.
So the teacher is there to support
students to practice those skills
of learning that will help them and
serve them beyond the classroom.
Um, they're, the teacher is there
to design that experience that
pushes learners to the point where
they say, "Oh, I need feedback
here," and help them to direct and
understand the process of feedback.
It help, um, the teacher's there to
create the environment where students
will have to become resourceful.
So that's holding those high expectations,
giving those challenging problems
and activities, and then providing
scaffolds or having students explore
different scaffolds so that they can
find what is the thing, the tools,
the environment that I need to best
support me, myself as a learner.
So we're there as educators to guide
that process, to support students to
try different things, to see those tools
and opportunities as ways that they can,
they can, um, remove their own barriers
to learning, take control over that.
And then the important piece
of that reflection, to stop and
reflect with learners and say,
"Hey, how did that work for you?
Um, when you used that set of
tools, were you more effective?
Were you less effective?
What do you wanna do next time?"
And in turn, we can then start
co-designing with our students so that
at the outset of learning, they can set
a plan where they know where they're
going, they know what tools and resources
they wanna use, um, and they can then
start to direct that, their own learning.
But- Also take on that own
personal reflection as well.
Not to plow ahead without, you
know, stopping to say, "How's
this learning going for me?"
So it's so important that the, that
our l- that our, um, educators are
there to design those experiences where
students practice those qualities and
those practices of, of learner agency.
I love that.
And you know, I, I remember back, I'm
studying in college, and I'm developing
a relationship with a subject.
I really think that that's, that's
what happens, especially for
our teachers in the classroom.
They have a love for the
subject that they're teaching.
They have a love for the, the
content, um, and they're trying
to impart that and share in that
experience with their students.
And what, what made me go there
in my mind was when you said,
"And then they can co-design."
And that sort of was the cherry
on top for me because- As we
facilitate what I'm hearing, as we
facilitate learners managing their
learning, they're able to develop a
relationship with the subject, right?
They're able to find how they do this
math or how they feel and think, and,
um, how social studies, you know, mixes
with what they already know and what
they'll, what they'll come to know.
And once they have this relationship with
that subject, now we can be co-designers.
Now we're doing social studies
together, and I, I absolutely love that.
Am, am I, am I right to be
inspired in that way, Neil?
You- Am I getting that right?
You nailed it, David.
You nailed it.
Okay.
And I think when we talk about
variability, we think a lot about, um, you
know, the culture that students bring and
the different backgrounds, but we don't
often stop and talk about the different
ways we learn, and that's what comes out.
That's what we allow to happen in a,
in a classroom that's practicing UDL.
We celebrate.
So I'll even stop during a lesson and
do, "All right, let's do a gallery walk
of how each other is taking notes."
Or, um, we, you know, we
started this planning.
Let's go around and look at each
other's goals as we started the class.
What did it look like?
So do we stop and celebrate the
different ways that people learn,
not just our differences as people,
which is so important, so core to
learning, but stop and notice the
differences in the way we learn, um,
and let's take that on from each other.
Let's look and go, "Oh,
wow, I love your system.
Um, I like the way that, that you jot
down your homework or the way that you've,
um, organized your, your resources."
That, and when we celebrate the different
ways we learn, we just take on a whole
'nother level of, of, um, respect
and understanding in the classroom.
And it really does sound like an, an
evolution, uh, or a way to evolve the
student-teacher relationship where we're
teaching and we're learning each other.
Very exciting.
I, I wanna switch our focus
now to artificial intelligence.
Um, I'm really curious as to how
it's evolving UDL, how perhaps it's
building on top of it, or how it
might elevate different parts of it.
So I, I've, I've got a
question for each of you.
So I'll start with you, Christine.
As, as AI has been entering classrooms,
I'm wondering what new questions it's
raising for CAST about accessibility,
variability, and just the future of
designing learning environments Sure.
So we definitely couldn't have a
podcast and talk about AI, right?
Yeah, that's right.
And, um, at CAST, um, many of us are
using the term assistive intelligence
and really thinking about keeping
that human side in the loop.
But we're asking these questions of
each other in the community right now,
so I'm glad you, you brought it up.
You know, when we think about, um,
AI, is an automated response gonna
be more one-size-fits-all, right?
Or, um, in, in kind of addressing the
average learner versus what we want,
which Neil just talked about is, um,
you know, uh, learner variability.
But that learner agency, you know,
AI can really empower, right?
Because folks can use, or students can use
AI in different ways depending on their
needs, their, um, and/or preferences,
um, and how they can learn best.
Um, I think one beauty of AI too is
that, um, most students are exploring
this in some way, shape, or form, right?
And they can help share with each other.
When Neil was talking about the teacher
and the student and co-designing or even
how did you write down your homework,
I know I learn from how others learn
and, um, come up with other ideas.
So I think a lot of the sharing can really
be, um, empowering, uh, for the students.
Uh, when we think about AI too, we
want to, you know, we think about the
power of these tools, and we also want
to kind of check when I-- You know,
coming from more of the accessibility
side and thinking of that, um,
differentiation and accommodations, we
wanna make sure that first, that the
AI tools are accessible to all learners
and they've met those standards.
Um, and then also they're secure, so
when students are asking questions or,
you know, and, and kids can be very
transparent, like, "Hi, I have ADHD and
dyslexia, and I live blah, blah, blah.
Help me," right?
Kind of thing.
We wanna be coaching them up
on their prompting as well.
But there are questions that
we're asking without CAST.
We have an online AI, um, community of
practice, and folks are asking each other.
We're constantly exploring opportunities,
um, to implement UDL on the teacher side,
as well as leveraging the, the variability
and the, this learner agency for students.
When we think about a framework that
might be in place or I've had a number
of conversations around, around this in
the past month or two, what I typically
find is there, there's something that
we, we were doing that, yes, AI, um,
can assist with, yes, AI can evolve, but
we're, we're starting to identify things
that we definitely don't wanna go away.
That's what I, that's what I'm
finding in my conversations.
And so Neil, as educators begin
incorporating AI into teaching and
learning- What principles from UDL do
you think become even more important?
Yeah, David.
Um, you know, a lot of the schools
I work with have curriculum
that they're, you know, common
curriculum that they're working off
of, and I think that's important.
I think it's important that, you know,
as students have an experience through
whether it be a math department,
science department, that there's
common language, common strategies,
um, that their experience through,
um, through a program doesn't feel
like, you know, every classroom I go
in or every year it's like a different
country and a different language.
Like, we need those commonalities.
Um, so I go back to the core of barrier,
you know, searching for barriers.
Um, I do a lot of work with teachers
on unpacking lessons, um, thinking
about the student experience, and
we'll identify all the potential
stopping points for a student.
And then I, I turn to the question,
how can AI help us create scaffolds
for that, that, um for that curriculum.
So one of the things we're often
doing, a lot of times we see
the, um, the possibility of AI
to help us to make choice boards,
to help us to make new things.
Um, but I just first stop just to ask
to say, what are the scaffolds that will
help students build the independence, and
can AI help us to create those scaffolds,
whether it's scaffolded text or graphic
organizers to be able to note take, um,
language translation, that oftentimes
schools have that core curriculum.
So stick to that core curriculum
that you've adopted, you've invested
in, and it's gonna create that
student experience, and then think
about how AI can, uh, support that.
Obviously relevance, feedback, all of
those core things that the collaboration
that happens between students to push
each other i- ideas, to hear how others
are making meaning, like we need those,
those protocols to stay in our classrooms.
That's the messiness of learning.
I do worry about an AI system
that's always gonna be able
to give us just the right next
prompt or the right next answer.
So maybe we don'tâ¦
we lose that confusion, we lose the
messiness of learning that's gonna take
us to say, "Oh, I'm gonna pull on that
resource," or a system that always gives
us the ni- next right prompt versus
me deciding what scaffold that's been
created that I'm gonna have to use, and
the s- the, the positive struggle, the
good struggle that comes from making
that decision and trying to understand
where, uh, my learning goes next, and
choosing something wrong and saying,
"That, that's not gonna work for me.
I need something else."
All of those experiences help us to
learn how to learn, and I, um, I just
hope we stay with that in classrooms,
and that AI can be a support to creating
those types of scaffolds and those
experiences to, you know, creating
problems that are relevant for students,
but letting the messiness of that
problem still happen in the classroom.
Keep it messy.
That's all.
I, I keep thinking that.
I don't know why.
Keep it messy.
But what, yeah, what I'm hearing
here is, you know, AI assisting
and helping teachers and students
embrace that variability.
Yes.
Yeah.
As we, we work together as a community-
CAST has actually built a pretty broad
community, and I'd like folks to better
understand how they can engage with CAST.
Christine, can you talk a bit about the
different ways educators can connect?
Sure.
So you're right, CAST has,
is a very powerful community.
Um, I often refer to
folks as the UDL groupies.
Like we're not Swifties, but, um,
we're really-- Uh, I've been at CAST
for over four years now, and there's
so much power in the way folks
are willing to connect and share.
Uh, and CAST really being, you know, the
authors of, of UDL, um, the guidelines
and, and maintaining, uh, the guidelines.
We, we bring that community together.
So we have a variety of
opportunities to engage.
Um, we have many free, um,
resources on our website.
Uh, and we have, um, monthly
webinar series where anyone around
the world can engage and enjoy,
um, the opportunity to discuss
different areas and aspects of UDL.
On the accessibility side, we
host the, um, the center, um,
that I mentioned, CITES, and that
has, uh, a community of practice.
So for folks that wanna roll up their
sleeves and learn more and talk to others
around AT and accessibility, they can
join that, uh, community of practice.
We have the CAST Cafe.
That's truly a community-based t- it is
a topic every month, but otherwise we
have our baristas, uh, our staff members
that are there to engage and talk and
share, and folks have, um, new tools.
And then coming up this summer, we
have our, um, event, which we're
gonna talk about, I think, as well.
Uh, but similar to you, we host a
podcast, "The Learning Experience," and
in that we engage with the community,
and we have different conversations
at least monthly, um, highlighting,
uh, UDL leaders in the field, um, from
K to gray, we like to say at CAST.
We, we go everywhere from pre- um, pre-K
all the way through, uh, adult learning,
uh, higher ed, uh, and workforce Awesome.
Yeah, I gotta, gotta give The
Learning Experience a listen.
Well, tell us about UDL-Con
Live, uh, Christine.
It's July 21st to 22nd, right?
Yes.
So, uh, we're live online.
Uh, this gives opportunity from
anyone, uh, around the world to
participate with us, and teachers in
the US, we know you're on, um, break.
However, this is a great opportunity
to, uh, leverage some downtime,
um, and build up your own
professional learning opportunities.
Uh, with that, we will
be, um, kind of half days.
Uh, we are recording everything.
We'll post those recordings,
so if you don't wanna leave the
beach for the full day, but you
wanna come and hear- That's right
a keynote or, um, some particular
sessions, you can always have access
to those recording for several months.
Uh, and one day we're starting, uh,
later in the day, and another day
early to accommodate, you know, both,
um, East Coast and West Coast as well.
Uh, and w- with that, I'm really excited
To hear from different, uh, leaders that
I had may or may not have with Engage.
We have cast staff, but the
community really pushed in.
We had unfortunately, even with
online, you, you do have to limit
the number of presentations.
Uh, but we're having a variety of
sessions and workshops focusing
on SEL, second language learners
in UDL, um, literacy and math.
Um, and I'm most looking forward to,
selfishly, a student voices panel, so
those students can come and talk about
some of the things that they've engaged
with, um, that Neil has mentioned
in their educational experiences.
For folks that may be new to,
to UDL, Neil, what do you think?
What experiences at UDL-Con
will help turn some of these
ideas around UDL into action?
What, what can I walk away with?
Yeah, wonderful, David.
The, you know, the chall- the beauty
of UDL as a, as a framework, um, is
that it can go anywhere, wherever
learning happens, as Christine said.
Um, the, that's the beauty of it.
The challenge is what does
it look like in practice?
And that's what you'll get at UDL-Con.
You're going to get practitioners from all
over the world in every different context,
and, um, y- I guarantee you'll find
something that is right in your wheelhouse
or r- right connected to your interest.
You'll take strategies from there,
and I also challenge you to go to
something that's, that's different
so that you can take, um, not only y-
potentially some strategies, but the
way that people are thinking about UDL.
Every context has different barriers.
Every context makes you look at
the framework in a different way.
As someone who travels through schools,
you know, all year long doing learning
walks and, uh, lesson design, uh, studies
with, with teachers and, um, ad- and,
uh, administrators together, every school
I go in, I like, I understand a UDL
guideline more deeply because of that
challenge, because I saw a different set
of students with a different curriculum
and a different set of circumstances.
Uh, and that context is what really
builds the fullness, uh, of our
understanding and our practice.
So come, come to hear those stories.
You know, see how people are
applying all over the world in
the, in the different scenarios.
Um, you'll leave with a strategy, and
you'll leave with a message on how
they thought about UDL that might be
different than, uh, what you're thinking.
So that is where I get pushed.
That's what I go to.
Uh, I get to moderate many of the
sessions and support, um, from the
back end, so I always challenge
myself to say, "Oh, I don't know
what that looks like or sounds like.
I'm gonna go there, and
what's my takeaway?"
My takeaway is always so robust, and,
um, it really sets up my learning.
I love that we're doing it this
summer because it sets up my
learning for the next year.
It really shapes my lens and makes
me reflect in a different way.
Very, very exciting stuff.
So I've got the same, the same
question for, for both of you.
So we're gonna kind of
step back a little bit.
If educators and leaders are listening
today And they decided they're gonna
take one step towards creating more
inclusive learning environments.
What would you encourage them to do first?
Christine, what would you say first?
Uh, I would encourage them to
think about the fact that we
are all only temporarily abled.
And in putting ourselves in the shoes of
different students, thinking about both
their background and their, um, different,
um, cognitive and physical, um, abilities
and/or disabilities, put yourself in
their shoes, and then you can really maybe
approach that driving for learner agency
because w- last year I hurt my foot.
I wore a boot.
I didn't have to use crutches, but
I had to have, you know, different
accommodations, and I had to really
think about and look at what other
people did when they were not able
to use their foot in a full way.
So in the same way with learning
opportunities, I think if we put
ourselves, um, in other shoes, we
really can kind of address that learner
variability and, and the ability to drive
students and all learners, regardless
of age, to, to have that agency so
they can be successful in whatever
it is they, they want, want to do.
Neil, what, what are you saying?
Christine, you just nailed that,
and we didn't plan this at all.
I was exactly going to
say, find out- Uh-oh.
Stole it.
Find out who's the system not working for.
So as administrators, who are those
teachers that you feel like are
disengaging from the profession,
who you feel like are struggling?
Um, and I don't say struggling because
it's their issue, but struggling
with the systems that are in place.
Um, let's sit down and talk to them.
Let's understand their perspective
and their point of view.
Then find those students.
Um, who are the students that seem
Like they're pushing away from our
system or pushing against our system.
Those are our biggest assets to understand
where the design is not working.
I'm gonna go back to that word barriers.
Just take a look at barriers from a
different perspective, not to say, "Wow,
it's their, um, it's their, they're
the reason why there's barriers."
To step back and say, "Let me hear from
their perspective about those barriers."
And then of course, reach out to families.
Who are those families
that we see disconnected?
Um, they're gonna tell us so much
about the systems, the curriculum, the
design, the experience, uh, through
our schools that we can say, oh, wow,
if I'm gonna truly be inclusive, it's
honoring their voices, honoring the
variability that they bring to the
table to say, "Yes, let's bring you in.
Let's learn from you.
Let's co-design with you to improve the
systems, the curriculum, the education."
Um, so in closing, I wanna thank,
uh, Christine and Neil again
from CAST for joining us today.
If you'd like to learn more about
UDL-Con Live Online, taking place July
21st through the 22nd, or register
for the event, visit udlcon.cast.org.
CAST has also provided Education
Talk Radio listeners with a
discount code, PL10, P as in
Paul, L as in Lima, one zero.
You'll find a link and registration
information in the show notes.
Thanks for joining us on Education Talk
Radio, a part of the B Podcast Network.
If there's a topic you'd like us to
tackle or have a guest idea, send me
a message at dciceroedutalk@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.