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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Eric Karkovack (00:00)
Hi everyone, and welcome to the WP Minute. I'm Eric Karkovack. Today, I'm joined by Mary Job, a long-time leader in the WordPress community. Mary has helped build the Nigerian WordPress community and made multiple contributions to the project itself. She's also a community strategist, working with clients to create sustainable ecosystems. Mary, welcome to the WP Minute.
Mary (00:24)
Thank you, thank you for having me here. I'm so excited to be on the WP Minute.
Eric Karkovack (00:30)
Yeah, thank you. You're someone I've been seeing online for a long time and always associated with WordPress. And I have to admit, I went back and read your Heropress essay from, I think it was 2017. And I loved your story because a lot of us in the WordPress space, we don't start out in technology necessarily. And I see that you studied philosophy in school, which is awesome. So.
Mary (00:44)
Yes, it was way back.
Eric Karkovack (00:59)
How do you, how did you come to WordPress and how do you think your studies maybe helped you along the way?
Mary (01:06)
Okay, so this is interesting because ⁓ usually there's this common saying back at home that when you find people studying philosophy, history, ⁓ heart related subjects, it's usually because they were given that subject. like in our part, when you're going to the university, you have to pick like your first and your second choice, right? And growing up, I always wanted these administration, you know, and then I had to ask myself at a point like what exactly
business
administration I suck at math so why am I even trying to do business administration so I was like no so I took the broker and I was like let me see where I fit in right and I read all of the subjects that I could study in university because like a universal broke here for Nigeria and I found philosophy was like oh wow this sounds exactly like why this is this is me and I remember telling my dad like I'm not in this admin again I'm philosophy my dad was like
Are you sure? He asked me like multiple times like, are you sure? I'm like, yeah, I'm very, sure. I want to study philosophy. So that's how I got into philosophy.
Eric Karkovack (02:17)
Well, that's great. I can relate to that as a father. Are you sure you want to do that one? But I mean, it's something you obviously you have a passion for it. ⁓ How has that helped you in community building? Do you feel like it's given you ⁓ a different perspective on it maybe than somebody else might have?
Mary (02:22)
You
yes like i said just knowing what the costume for
⁓ I could totally connect to it. I could like, yes, this is so me. it for me, it wasn't like I was given the cross. I chose the cross and I chose it because it reflects who I am as a person and who I am today. Like it's it's literally like the foundation of my life, you know, and everything that I've been doing. So it sort of followed me all the way ⁓ even today. And I mean, philosophy is the foundation of all this.
So yes, it's followed me all the way and up till today into what I do is, know, the principles, everything about it just flows into ⁓ being human, being a part of a community, know, and stuff like that.
Eric Karkovack (03:35)
Well, I think ⁓ that's nice because in technology we tend to dehumanize each other sometimes in technology. think philosophy might actually be, we probably need more philosophers in tech. I don't know what you think about that.
Mary (03:49)
yeah,
yeah. No, no, I agree. Because when you look at the ethical bit, the ethical angle, that's actually like we need, and that's what I'm exploring these days. Like we seem to have forgotten that at the bottom of who we serve as people, whether you're a business owner or you're community person or whatever you do, people are at the center of it and we seem to be forgetting that, right? So I think we need a reminder and coming from that past, from that
Eric Karkovack (04:14)
Yes.
Mary (04:19)
field it helps me to remind myself like people are at the bottom of everything you're doing you're here for people I mean what's life without making an impact on people I don't know what kind of life that would be if you haven't impacted anybody in any small way it doesn't have to be big
Eric Karkovack (04:39)
Exactly, exactly. you know, I mean, there's a lot of pursuit of money and things like that, but really, if you're not impacting people, then what good is it if you can't make someone's life better?
Mary (04:48)
There's nothing wrong with the pursuit of
money. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with the pursuit of money. But who's going to pay you that money? People. Right? People, not systems. I mean, people, humans are still going to pay that money. So who?
Eric Karkovack (04:56)
That's a great point.
Well, I want to get into your little bit of your background ⁓ in helping put together the Nigerian WordPress community. How did you get involved with that? And it sounded like you were pretty ⁓ pretty important role in getting that like the meetup in Lagos, I believe it was that you done and how did you get involved with WordPress in Nigeria and spread the word about it?
Mary (05:26)
Yes.
That's also a very funny story. I'll tell it to you very briefly. ⁓ like I said, my background, I like writing, right? I like writing a lot, right? ⁓ I still have my blogspot account up. I mean, I didn't delete it out of sentiment. But when I look at my writings in the past, I'm like, wow, I wrote that. No, I really should. I mean, I'm better, of course. ⁓
Eric Karkovack (05:49)
Wow.
Mary (06:01)
love of writing made me look for a software to write on. Right? And there was UpPages. I still have the account there too. There was Blogger. And then there was WordPress. And I remember first opening WordPress in 2012. And I was like, what is this? I just want to write, you know? And then I closed it back.
Then in 2015, I was doing my masters internship in Ghana. And my uncle was like, you know, have you checked out WordPress? I'm like, really WordPress? Really? I was like, yeah. And then he gave me some videos to watch. It was made by Martin Rand, and drugs in Canada. I don't know if I pronounce his name well. Yeah.
Eric Karkovack (06:38)
Yes.
Mary (06:40)
I spent the next 24 hours watching all of those and I was like wow this is so massive, this is so good, this is so cool you know. I was so mesmerized at the software and I just...
became, I think at that point I became like a WordPress addict because I fell in love totally with WordPress at that point. And then coming back to Nigeria after my program, you know, ⁓ I then thought, well, there has to be a community because then I started building sites, know, buying domains. didn't know what all of those were, you know, because I wasn't playing in that field. And
I remember asking myself like there has to be like, you know, I found myself on Make The World Present or, you know, I always say like, didn't just talk like I deliberately seeked out a community, which is interesting in my case. I deliberately seeked out a community and I found like, there has to be a community somewhere. Like who can I ask questions? I don't even know what I'm doing. What am I even doing? I don't even know what hosting is, you know. All of those questions drove me to seek the community and then find that there was a community in the
I
was like, there's a community in Lagos. At that time I was living in a Jebu, which is an hour drive to Lagos. And I was like, I reached out to the community in Lagos, the organizer, like, what's happening? You haven't had a meetup, like, is there going to be a meetup soon? I want to join, I want to meet all the people who using this amazing software. And that's how the story started. And he said, you know what, maybe if you want to host an event, and we became friends after today.
Eric Karkovack (08:10)
Haha
Mary (08:11)
He actually supported a lot, but was always in the background. And we both co-founded the hosting company. Because that's his passion. I'm like the operations, he's like the developer. But he was always in the background, supporting every meetup that we did. But what happened was...
⁓ When I started to host meetups, I found myself having to learn wordpress deeply. I just wanted to go meet other people. But other people would come expecting you to know about the software. ⁓
Eric Karkovack (08:42)
Yes, they do.
Mary (08:43)
Yeah, they come expecting
you to know. So I found myself studying over what is SEO exactly, what are plugins, what are teams, how can you build a course. I had to start learning all of those things so that I could answer people when they ask me. And boy, I don't know. just defer to my friend, like, boss, yeah, come and answer. This is for you. But that's what drove me into the community. And well, the rest is history.
Eric Karkovack (09:12)
That's a great way to learn, it? When other people are depending on you for that information, ⁓ it's a great way to force yourself to sit there and learn it.
Mary (09:18)
yes, ⁓ I was put on the
spot because I had to prepare even when I wasn't presenting and somebody else was presenting, had to go learn about what they were presenting so that I could also contribute.
Eric Karkovack (09:33)
Well, now these days I know you're doing some consulting work, right? So you're working with different organizations trying to build sustainable communities. What is, how's that gone for you? ⁓ What have you been doing with that so far?
Mary (09:44)
Yes.
So that's also interesting. mean, every bit of every, at every junction of my life is interesting. So that's interesting because ⁓ I currently still work for PID Memberships Pro. I mean, we have the best membership software anyway out there as I know of Triton, right? So I still work full time with PID Memberships Pro. ⁓ I have double demands and a bit of different things, you know. So volunteering for me is a passion.
Eric Karkovack (10:08)
I know it.
Mary (10:22)
Right. I notice saying about do like the saying that when you do a job that you love, it doesn't feel like you're walking, something like that. Right. So walking with WordPress every day for me doesn't feel like walking. It feels like I'm fun every day because I'm discovering something new, but at work and outside of work. ⁓ So I've never treated that bit of me as a business. Right. For me, it's always been like,
yes, organizing this, we're meeting people, we're networking, we're talking about what pressure is solving, what press problems. That was all fun. Until last year, I started thinking like, OK, so I've done this for years. I've done this for so many years. I have a jet of knowledge in my ⁓ head somewhere. What could I? I mean, this is also work that I love. So what could I do? How could I put this forward in such a way that ⁓ it sustains me?
So to say it sustains me and it still doesn't feel like work because now I'm doing something that I love as a business. So that's what better the community ⁓ building and consulting work, helping ⁓ businesses, individuals, founders, ⁓ anybody volunteering ⁓ into how to build sustainable communities because.
Eric Karkovack (11:29)
Sure.
Mary (11:45)
Trust me, we failed over the years. Like the Lagos WordPress went up, we're not so active. And every day I keep trying to think, how can we put together a system that would work, that wouldn't be a burden on one person? Because at one point, I also took a break from the WordPress community for like, I think three years. Yeah, I was a program deputy and I took a break because I was really like drowning ⁓ with a lot of stuff. So.
Eric Karkovack (12:03)
Okay.
Mary (12:12)
That better what I do now, trying to like, ⁓ let me put this wealth of knowledge and experience into something useful for businesses, individuals, because at the end of the day, like I said, people are still at the heart of everything that we do. Communities still have the heart of everything that we do, right? You're not selling to robots, you're selling to humans, to people, to communities. So that's what got me here.
Eric Karkovack (12:38)
Yeah.
Well, I know like we've talked about burnout in the WordPress community before with people, especially with event organizing and different volunteer roles like that. So I could understand why, you know, I've seen all the things that you've accomplished on your wordpress.org profile. You've done core committing and translations and all these different things. I can imagine that would be very tiring after a while. You would need a break.
Mary (13:05)
Yes, yes, yes, I did. I did need a break. took, I did, I needed a break and then I struggled to get back in, into that frame of mind because I wanted to get back into that frame of mind so bad, but you know,
life happens, you have family, you have this, you have that. So for me, was a struggle getting back in. And I'm so excited because now I'm my feet in just as I wanted. And I'm excited about doing this all over again. Now I have a lot of energy, of course. Of course, now I know better. Now I know how to, which is what I'm essentially consulting for. Now I know how to build that community without a bottle. How to build it. Yeah, how to build strategies to
for that community or for any community work that I'm doing without burning out myself.
Eric Karkovack (13:56)
That's a very important thing. cause I imagine in the WordPress community and any open source community that, you know, there are certain people who take so much responsibility on. And if you have that experience and wisdom to say, we, this is how you take a step back. This is how you build something that will sustain over many years, even after you're gone. That's so much healthier than having a handful of people that just.
try to do everything themselves, right?
Mary (14:26)
Yeah, and it's not always the fault of people who try to do everything themselves. It's just everything falls on you and you have no choice but to step up. I think I have a bad habit of...
Eric Karkovack (14:32)
Yes.
Mary (14:35)
always wanting to step up. So my daughter's school, we started a parent association, right? And I was a secretary last quarter. And in this year, because of the vice president and the president were leaving, they pushed me up to the president like, Mary, you're next in line, just be the president of the parent association. I'm like, I'm not built for this. But I mean, it's building community, which is what I love. So was like, okay, great. But
Eric Karkovack (14:56)
Hahaha
Mary (15:02)
I also have to consciously not step up all the time. So like we sell cookies every Friday to try to raise money. And I have this at the back of my mind that if somebody doesn't show up or somebody doesn't opt...
volunteer, I have to step up. And we used to do it in the mornings and evenings. was like, no, I'm committing to just half to this. Now I can choose. I can build intentionally without stressing everybody out. Because when you lead a community, you have to also be very empathetic, because not everybody can give the same amount of time.
So you have to keep that at the back of your mind. So it's not always deliberate that people want to take on all the responsibilities. It's just knowing what you can commit to, what you can't commit to, and knowing when to say no and when to pull out and when. It's just, like I said, experience is the best teacher. And it has taught me how to best position myself to know what I can take on, what I wouldn't take on.
Eric Karkovack (15:40)
Sure.
Well, that's so much better for your mental health, I can imagine. companies, you we talked about, you're selling to people, you're not selling to machines or systems. And if you're a company in the WordPress space, you're a plugin developer, you're a hosting company, how important is it to give back and find ways to give back? Like, you know,
Mary (16:08)
yes it is.
Yes.
Eric Karkovack (16:33)
What would you recommend to, like a WordPress developer came to you and said they wanted to find a way to ⁓ do something within the community. How would you advise them on that?
Mary (16:44)
So first of all, let me approach this from this angle, right? Once upon a time, ⁓
Businesses didn't care to inform people about their products because I mean everybody just bought their products, you know, and that's what better business is needing websites and then needing blogs on their website so that they could inform their customers, right? And we went into an era where consumers also were deliberate about where they were spending their money, right? So they don't just want to give their money to like any business or whatnot. ⁓ It's the same thing. think businesses, would say businesses today need
to intentional about where their website is built. know businesses don't want to bother. I mean, I just want a website. I don't really care what a website is. Just give me up a website. And this is what I told my customers when I did web designing a lot. I used to tell them like, think of your domain name and your hosting and all of that. Because my customers are like, Mary, why are you budging me with all of this? I'm like, I need you to know.
where your host is, where your domain is. I don't even buy them on my account. I make sure the customer buys them with their email. I when you create a free Gmail, you know this is a Google product because it has Google all over it. So I feel like businesses need to treat that part of their website as, they need to be intentional, know this is where my domain is at. This is where my hosting is at.
This is what my website is built on. Now, I'm not saying businesses should start going into the technical details of what is a WordPress website. Just know that my website is written on WordPress as an open source software. Once businesses and owners can do that.
then they can then think, you know, if this is open source software, it means it's free, right? ⁓ How can I give back to this community? Because this community is fielded like a wealth of information. The people is fielded so many people, you know, there's literally no aspects of your business that you would not find information or some helpful resource about in the WordPress ecosystem. So that should drive like if I'm a business owner, my website is built on WordPress. I'm thinking like,
Okay, is there a local WordPress community in my area? What can I do to contribute to that open source software that's powering my website? And it's literally educational, right? But I think if businesses can be intentional about knowing where their website is built, they can also then think of ways to give back.
to the WordPress community. It could be in the form of anything. There's no such thing as a small contribution, right? But that's a starting point for business owners or for a plugin developer. You'll find that there's a local WordPress community almost everywhere. And if you feel like, I don't have one, let me give you an example. So I currently live in Duras in Albania, right? I moved from Nigeria in 2024, right? And when I got here, there was no WordPress community.
Eric Karkovack (19:40)
There is.
Mary (19:52)
right? And there was one in Tirana, which is a capital and the owner isn't the
The host isn't doing meetups, hasn't done any since I came, because it's also taking a break, which is great. ⁓ But I've been here a year and a half and I thought, there has to be a community. So I mean, it's a lot of work within the community, but I opted to start one, not because I had all the time and the resources to do that. But do you know what happened at the first meetup we had? Everybody who came, we had about seven people show up. Two people came and then left. ⁓
because they had something to get to. But they all said something that they said. I just saw on the dashboard, Durace Meetup. And I was perplexed, like, what is a meetup? mean in Durace, in my city? Because there were all locals who came, and maybe like three or four foreigners. But it was interesting to see how enthusiastic they were, like, what do mean there's something called a WordPress meetup, a WordCamp? I've never heard of that.
The restaurant that I chose, the owner, the person who manages the studio, reached out and said, like, I was perplexed. Like, we've been doing WordPress for 10 years, right? And we had no idea about any of this. So you can imagine how interested that and they were so willing to offer their space. They had a table laid out for us. That's how businesses can show up intentionally. I just scheduled the middle because I like that restaurant and they have great Turkish ⁓ coffee, right? I didn't think that.
Eric Karkovack (21:24)
you
Mary (21:25)
that
somebody from that restaurant will reach out to me and say, no, I checked that a website was built on WordPress. They were being intentional about reaching out. It's not hard. I mean, it's not simple. It's not easy. But businesses need to be intentional about this. You need to don't wait until the community finds you. Find the community. It's open source software. Find it. Give back to it, ⁓ no matter how little.
Eric Karkovack (21:40)
Yeah.
Well, I think that's an important point because we often think about contribution and my mind immediately goes to code. I'm not the world's greatest developer. You probably don't want me writing, you know, anything that would go into WordPress core. You would not want it to be written by me, but there are so many other ways to give back, just like the restaurant. Just giving a space for people to meet. It's just so, it's a very nice gesture. It's...
Mary (22:16)
Yes.
Yeah. ⁓
Eric Karkovack (22:25)
It's small and yet it makes a big difference.
Mary (22:25)
They gave us a space, gave us water,
and they gave us that Turkish coffee and it was on the house. That was great. They see that, no, they understand that the website is built on an open source software and they were so eager to give back. So I feel like if every business owner could do that, who has a website built on WordPress, the ecosystem will become so much larger. There's space for everybody.
Eric Karkovack (22:54)
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, no matter how small the contribution, it all makes a difference. Even if you go, even if you if you don't have a local community, you can go into the support forums and help answer questions if that's something you're good at. You can write a tutorial if that's something you're good at. That's that's something I've done. I don't have a ton of contributions that are official, but I've you know, I've tried to help spread the word about different things that I've learned. I just think that's important. We have to
Mary (22:59)
Yes, it does.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Eric Karkovack (23:24)
look at these communities. I mean, I know you're working with other companies too. Have you worked with other ⁓ open source communities beyond WordPress yet?
Mary (23:34)
Not very much. I have a friend who is very enthusiastic about Joomla. She's always trying to get me to like, oh, Joomla is, you know, the new version is so cool. I'm like, yeah, I understand that. It's just, I have my mindset on WordPress. I mean, it's a love-love relationship. yeah, but I did some work back with TechSoup and
Creative Commons, yes. I think at a point, I run a community for that in Ejeabu, in my town in Nigeria. So I did that in the press, and yes, and then with the Catholic Salishian community also in the press,
presently no other open source communities because like i said i'm just getting my feet back into contribution i'm getting my feet back into that so i don't want to rush it because ⁓ i don't want to take on more than i can do right so i'm taking it slow
Eric Karkovack (24:32)
That's a very wise strategy. It's easy to get overwhelmed when you start doing that stuff, especially at a volunteer level where you're out there helping everybody, but at the same time, you need to look after yourself.
Mary (24:35)
Yeah.
Absolutely, I agree. You have to.
Eric Karkovack (24:50)
So if you're looking at the WordPress community now, what do you think we do well as a community and what do you think we can improve on?
Mary (25:01)
Hmm. Yeah, we do a lot of things well. We do a lot of, I think I read a post about Contributor Day somewhere where somebody talked about their experience at Contribution Day and how they're seeing the pattern, you know, and they think this is what can be improved on. You know, that post was interesting, but I know if it was published recently. don't remember who. But then,
Eric Karkovack (25:02)
I know that's a tough question.
Mary (25:28)
was also thinking like, we are doing a lot already in the WordPress community, because it's not easy to get people together for one shared purpose, right? So that's already a lot, but I would say what we could do better, what we could do better, so I wouldn't say we're not doing enough because we're doing a lot, right? But what I would say we could do better would be to market and efforts, like educating business owners, right?
Because if we have business owners who are intentional about where their site is built, if we have those people also giving back to the ecosystem, it would help also grow the trajectory, the trajectory will go like a bit higher than it already is. Because I think by now we should not be doing like 40%. We've been stuck at 40 % for a while. I don't know you noticed. We've been stuck at 40%.
Eric Karkovack (26:25)
Yeah.
Mary (26:28)
balanced, but we need to go up because, ⁓ so we need to do more and then we need to reach out to the next generation. Next generation and business owners because the attention span for the next generation. So my daughter told me recently, told her like, I saw you, opened a weebly site, right?
Eric Karkovack (26:49)
⁓ no.
Mary (26:51)
Yeah, they gave her a school homework. She has a WordPress blog. She has a WordPress website. gave her a WordPress. So they give them an homework to create a website and she had told me about it. Of course she knows I want to tell her how to do it on WordPress.
She didn't say anything about it again. So later when I checked up on her assignment, was like, you submitted a weblis. It was so easy and straightforward. like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Are you saying that what part? She's like, no, that was just drag and drop. But I'm almost a resident. I feel like we are leaving that generation behind. We need to bring them in one way or the other.
Right? We need to bring them I'm not saying bring them in by force, but I'm saying we need to let them see what is possible, right? What is achievable within the...
ecosystem, you know, and then let them make their decision. I'm pretty positive that if we had some efforts, how to reach the targeted that generation and those business owners, I feel like we would be able to convince them to see the value and the benefit that can be gotten from the work cycle system.
Eric Karkovack (28:09)
Well, I know ⁓ recently there have been some efforts at universities. There is a WordPress credits program. actually, ⁓ one of the episodes that'll be, hasn't come out yet, well, while we're speaking, that'll be coming out soon ⁓ about how a university in Pisa, Italy is actually teaching WordPress and giving students credit for that learning time. And they're learning how to contribute to open source. I think if we can grow that.
Mary (28:14)
Yes.
Eric Karkovack (28:36)
You know, because we don't have, where I am in the United States, the WordCamps have really gone away. We only have WordCamp US now in a couple of small events. And so we don't have these big get togethers anymore where we can kind of show everybody WordPress. So I think if we can get people at the university levels and even at the high school levels, that's where we're going to get more people to come in and contribute to the community. As you said, that's very important.
Mary (29:02)
I totally
agree with you. like you said, contribution is not just about code. The one area that I think is often overlooked is polyglots. The polyglots, it's a big deal because it's languages, it's different people's languages. I imagine being able to navigate WordPress in my local language. Not that I can read it very well, but I mean, that would be so cool, right? And then our parents could actually navigate.
And then people who can speak the language, like navigate that, that would be so cool. So I think that's also one angle where it's underrated and it's also a great way to get that generation to actually like take part in contributing to WordPress.
Eric Karkovack (29:50)
That's a good point. I know WordPress is very global. It's in every corner of the world and many languages are spoken. if we can get the software into as many languages as possible, we're going to, I mean, that's going to lead to more growth in areas where it maybe isn't the number one choice.
Mary (30:12)
I agree with you. I agree with you. Totally.
Eric Karkovack (30:17)
Well, Mary, I thank you for being on. ⁓ Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about what you're doing with your consulting work or even your contributions to WordPress?
Mary (30:29)
well, not at this time because I'm actually working on a program which I'm supposed to try and record. So I'm trying to work on a program where it's literally saying ⁓ it's totally okay to be a volunteer, but I think it's a bit unfair when you put all your passion and all your time and all your expertise and skills into that and it doesn't pay you.
right? Because at the end of the day, everybody needs to get paid, right? So there is, it is possible for us to get to be creative about that, to build sustainability, to volunteer sustainability in such a way that it also sustains us. So I'm getting a program around that, which is what I've been working on. And I'm trying to work on like a eight week. ⁓
a program around that so that it's reusable content and it's useful for anyone who's in the volunteering space, whether it's with a business, NGO, communities, know, anywhere you're building, because like I said, at the end of the day, it's all about people. ⁓
Eric Karkovack (31:38)
Well, that's great. think contribution and getting paid for contribution, especially with some of the hard work that gets put in, that's a big deal. ⁓ A lot of people simply can't afford to give away all of their time. so ⁓ getting some sort of compensation system, I think, would be wonderful and help a lot of people.
Mary (31:47)
Yes it is. ⁓
Yes it is.
Yeah, without losing
the focus on why you're giving back, you could give back. You could give to people without losing. You could still do what you love to do, which is giving back voluntarily, but also creative ways to get paid sustainably.
I think that bit is important and often overlooked because we think that if you're giving back, you shouldn't get any ⁓ payment at all whatsoever. like I said, at the end of the day, are human beings, right? We have families, we have things we're doing outside of that work, right? I mean, if you're hungry, how do you feed somebody else? You can't. ⁓
Eric Karkovack (32:39)
That's a great point. think it's something that I know the WordPress community has debated for a long time. So I'm interested to see what your program is. ⁓ Where can people connect with you online?
Mary (32:52)
my website, maryjob.com Yes.
Eric Karkovack (32:56)
Alright,
Mary (32:57)
No, no, I was just going to say on my website and on Twitter once in a while, I don't hang out on Twitter. I always used to call it X. don't hang out on Twitter all the time. But yes, but on my website, anyone can reach me anytime on my website at any time. know, I respond to emails faster than actually social media.
Eric Karkovack (33:05)
I don't want to call it X.
I do the same thing. I will put the link to your website of the show notes for sure. And I've also put a link to your hero press essay because it is wonderful. And I think your story is so inspiring how going from philosophy to WordPress, I think is just a beautiful thing.
Mary (33:35)
Yeah, thank you.
Eric Karkovack (33:38)
Well, thank you for being part of the show and I want to thank everybody for watching and listening here. ⁓ And please visit us over at the WPminute.com slash subscribe. You can get our newsletter, keep up to date with everything we're doing and you can also become a member, join our Slack community for free. Thanks and we'll see you again next time.