Exile and the fiery furnace – Daniel E1

What is the context of the book of Daniel? Who is the fourth man in the fiery furnace?

In our first episode exploring the book of Daniel, we look into the historical context of the book – how the Jews were taken into exile in Babylon and the rise and fall of kings, nations and empires. We then turn to the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace, discussing who the fourth man in the fire was and how we can find courage knowing that God is with us in our trials. We talk about courage and faith in the midst of challenges and the importance of worshipping the one true God.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Introduction to the Daniel series and Rooted
• (01:00) - Context behind the book of Daniel
• (03:15) - The exile of the Jews to Babylon
• (08:50) - Nebuchadnezzar's golden statue
• (14:20) - Worshipping multiple gods
• (16:00) - Nebuchadnezzar vs Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego
• (19:00) - The cost of being a Christian: courage and faithfulness
• (23:06) - The fiery furnace
• (24:44) - The fourth man in the fire
• (28:59) - Ernest Shackleton's expedition
• (32:14) - Nebuchadnezzar's response

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Creators & Guests

Host

Esther King

Esther is part of Bible Society's Communications team.

Host

Mark Woods

Mark is a Baptist minister and sometime journalist, who now heads up Bible Society's comms team.

Host

Noël Amos

Noël is the editor of Rooted, Bible Society's devotional journal.

Producer

Jack Morris

Jack works with digital content all across Bible Society.

What is The Rooted Podcast?

Listen to The Rooted Podcast for in-depth conversations about the Bible and how we can apply it to our lives. Join the team behind Rooted, Bible Society's devotional journal, as we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible in each series and explore its message for us today.

(00:01.41)
Welcome back to the Rooted Podcast by Bible Society. I'm Noelle and I'm joined by Mark and Esther. And today we're very excited to be starting our series on the Book of Daniel. In the future in this series, we're really excited. We're going to have some special guests on, so be in the lookout for those episodes. We're creating this series on the Book of Daniel because at Bible Society, we produce a devotional journal every other month on a different book or theme of the Bible and the journal that's just been released in July.

is all about the book of Daniel. So that's called Rooted. If you're interested, you can go check it out on Bible Society's website. In this episode, we're going to give a bit of context about the book and also talk a bit about the exile. And then we're going to look at the story of the fiery furnace. So before we go too far, if you'd like to send us some questions, you can do that at biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions.

And we'd also love it if you wanted to leave us a review or if you're listening on Spotify or YouTube, you can leave us a comment. And we'd love that. Why don't we start? I wonder, Mark, if you could just, as we begin, Daniel is a complicated book to understand for a lot of people, maybe not the easiest to understand time periods or what was going on at the time. I wonder if you could just start us off with a bit of context. You're right. Daniel is a really complicated book. It's probably the most complicated book in the Old Testament.

There are all sorts of questions about who wrote it and when, questions about the story bits and the prophecy bits. And the trouble is, you I read a few commentaries about this and it's really easy to drown in the detail. It's all very interesting, but that's, you know, that's not what the Bible is for really. It's not just for scholars and nerdy people. It's for everybody. So we just need to be careful not to drown in the detail. But just to say maybe a couple of things. It's set in the Babylonia stroke Persian era.

and the action of the book covers around 605 BC to around 536 BC. It has lots of weird visions in the back half of it about strange beasts and angels and goodness knows what. It is about the rise and fall of empires. These visions are about the rise and fall of empires. You can map a lot of these visions onto recorded history, the recorded history of the time.

(02:20.258)
So one question is, for instance, was this predictive prophecy or was the book written after all this stuff had happened? So if it's predictive prophecy, you might end up with a quite early date for Daniel. If it was not predictive prophecy, then you end up with a much later date, maybe around the second century BC. And obviously this isn't just about whether you think that predictive prophecy is possible or not, whether you think it happens or not. It's about whether you think that

particular kind of literature, this particular book even, if you think that that's what it was. And so I said it was complicated, didn't I? My approach is always to these things, that the Bible that we have is the Bible that God intended us to have. And how we got it is really secondary as far as I'm concerned. It's about what God says to it through it today, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, great. So that's the context of the book of Daniel, and that's kind of where

Babylon was at the time. But how did the Jews that we find, so Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, we find them in chapter three in this story. And obviously they've been exiled, but maybe we could talk a bit more about that. Yeah, the exile, this is like a big part of the big story of the Bible, isn't it? This idea that God chooses his people, he gives them his law. Sadly, they don't remain faithful to the covenant that they have with God. And you you can go

even to Leviticus, so in the Torah, where I think in chapter 26, there's sort of a list of blessings if they keep their covenant with God and curses if they don't. And in a month's suppose, well not curses, but punishments or judgment from God is that they will be removed from their land, the promised land, taken into exile.

as sort of a tool to kind of discipline them and turn them back to God. in terms of the history of the time, you've got the Babylonians who are this sort of upstart force, and they are the ones who take on and pretty much destroy the oldest Syrian empire, which was also one of the great enemies of Israel and Judah. And their great rival is Assyria's ally, Egypt.

(04:36.822)
And so you've got Babylonia in the north and east, and then you've got Egypt down in the south. And unfortunately, the kingdom of Judah is on the way between the two. If one is going to attack the other, they're going to go through Judah. So strategically, it's a really important place and it's very, very vulnerable. And what happens is that there are four different exiles that Nebuchadnezzar takes away.

mainly the sort of upper class, the aristocracy, the craftspeople, things like that. He takes them back to Babylon, partly to weaken Judah, and partly because it's useful to have people like that in his own kingdom, know, serving his own empire. I find that whole thing really interesting. I can see that idea of weakening the, you know, taking sort of a brain drain from Jerusalem and taking the best people and then using them to serve your ends.

not all of, you know, in these waves of different exiles or in the siege of Jerusalem, there was, not everybody was treated in the same way as Daniel and his friends. You know, I think we can see from other places in the Bible that there was lots of murder, children were murdered. I mean, it's really shocking, isn't it? I think it's in Psalm 137, you get this Psalm where it's calling, it's saying, blessed is the man

dashes your babies, as in Babylonian babies, against the rocks. And the whole point of that is it's saying, well, that's what the Babylonians did to our children. And so may the same thing be served back on them, or may God bring justice for what has been done. And in Isaiah 47, there's a little snippet in there that kind of talks about how poorly older people were treated, just unbearable burdens were put on them.

Yes, Daniel and his friends are treated quite well. And you can read in the book of Daniel these stories and sort of perhaps forget maybe that there's this whole other element of atrocities that have happened and trauma. Isn't that interesting, Esther, because I don't think I've ever really explored this before, but Daniel and Shadrach and Meshach and Abednego, they have probably lived through this, maybe as children or as young people, you

(06:58.622)
they're being taken away to serve their enemies. And what kind of relationship must they have had with the Babylonians? I mean, it's a really interesting thing to explore. How do you sort of negotiate that kind of thing? I mean, it says it in Jeremiah, doesn't it? They're told to settle in the land, to build homes, to have families, like seek the prosperity of the city where they are, because

you're going to be there a long time. So you need it to prosper for you to prosper. yeah, when you think about how what that actually means, the personal cost and what you'd have to overcome to live among people that have committed atrocities against your people, is shocking.

And am I right, just to clarify, that the reason that there were several exiles, that there wasn't just one, is because Nebuchadnezzar came, took kind of the people who are in the upper echelons back, and he sets up a sort of puppet king, from what I understand. So that's Zedekiah in the city, and he sort of stays there. But then from what I understand, he does a bad job. Nebuchadnezzar doesn't like it, so he comes back and takes more people. Is that kind of how it

Yeah, it's that kind of thing. I get a bit hazy about the details, to be perfectly honest, but I think in the end, Zedekai rebels and comes to a very sticky end indeed, unfortunately. So yeah, there's nothing good about this story at all. Yeah, but that's kind of the explanation as to why not. Because I think when I was reading, I thought, why not just one exile? Why split it up? So that's sort of, that's where we find ourselves in Daniel chapter three.

So just to sort of summarize the scenario and the start of the story is that Nebuchadnezzar has set up a golden image. I think one of the myths that we think about, I always imagined that the image was of Nebuchadnezzar himself. And you always imagine that everyone's bowing down to it, but that's not actually what it says. It just says a golden image. So we don't actually know what the image is of, but he sets up a golden image and he says that everyone

(09:13.768)
certain time when they hear this music from all these different instruments is going to have to bow down to it. And we find that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego have decided that they're not going to bow down, regardless of this sort of huge penalty. Something that I find interesting, especially considering what we were just talking about, about how would Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego relate to the Babylonians after this history that they have with them, is something I find interesting about the story is that they were

In Babylon, this is decreed. You don't find them fighting it. Like you don't find them doing anything publicly to say this should not be. They just sort of quietly, it seems, didn't do it. And then they get found out and they get told on. Right. But I find that really interesting compared to how maybe some Christians would handle things today, especially when they're living in an environment with their enemies. They're not, they're not kind of going against the idea or

publicly doing anything, but it's just kind of a quiet, we're not going to do that. That is interesting. And maybe part of the reason for that is that they are kind of, well, you could see them as guests in the city. I mean, they're captives, but it's basically not their city. So it's not their rules. And, you know, if it were Jerusalem, then somebody set up a golden image. Well, you can imagine people being very annoyed about that, but, you know, it's Babylon. So why should things be any different?

So it's as though they don't really have a stake in it. So there's no point in complaining about it. Yeah. And I mean, I wonder how natives of this city actually felt about this statue. Can you imagine at any point in your busy day, you hear this music start up and like, you know, just as a quick reaction, you know, it's sort of meaningless in a way. You're just meant to throw yourself on the ground until the music stops. Can you imagine how annoying that would

I mean, I guess that's speculation in terms of this, but this statue was not there, however long before. It wasn't something they've always been doing. Really, I think most people, their reaction to this was just, well, this is what our king's doing now. If I don't do it, I'm going to be killed. I think there will have been a lot of thoughts and feelings, and even the people that complied, I wonder.

(11:38.304)
if it really had much of a meaning beyond, we just have to do

But I think one of the things is that this is told for effect, isn't it? And it's really funny. I don't know if people listening to this have read it recently, but you've got this constantly repeated string of titles, know, the satraps, the prefects, the governors, the advisors, treasurers, judges, magistrates, and all the other provincial officials. And then the next verse, you've got the satraps, the prefects, the governors, the advisors, the treasurers, and the whole list comes again.

and he's really piling it on. And I think it's just meant to be ridiculous. As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, and then the next verse, as soon as they heard the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp and all kinds of music, and it's deliberately absurd. I don't know. We've just had the state opening of parliament here in the UK and you can

You can just see all these people in their best suits and their robes and their crowns and everything. As we're recording, it's the beginning of the Olympics in a couple of weeks' time, isn't it? And there'll be this vast stadium, tens of thousands of people. And everything is done for effect. Everything is meant to make you think, this is really important. These people are really important.

And then you've got these three little men who say, well, you want us to bow down to this image? We're not going to do it. And it's deliberately designed to puncture the self -importance of Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians, I think. It sets up this wonderful scenario, essentially. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant to go through, but this wonderful scenario where there's a message to

(13:35.914)
exiles from Israel who were meant to be worshipping the Most High God. Like, are you going to do that? Who are you going to fear more? Nebuchadnezzar and his furnace or the Most High God? And those first two commandments, you shall have no other gods before me and you won't create any image of anything and bow down and worship anything other than me. So what are you going to do? But it's also, it's

It's a huge message to the Babylonians who worshiped many gods and were into idolatry. This sets up this scenario to say, well, who is the real God? Yeah, I think that's interesting because I was thinking about, so it's a pluralistic society, which means you could worship many different gods. And something I find interesting about this story is they don't get in trouble for serving another god.

they just get in trouble that they won't serve Nebuchadnezzar's God. So that brings up that thing of what you've just said, Esther, is it doesn't seem to be a problem if you serve many gods, but you can't say that one of them is higher than all of the other ones, which I find interesting because I think we also run into that today quite a lot. To say that Christianity is the right religion or to say that any religion is the right one is way more threatening than if you just say,

we'll all sort of coexist together. think bumper stickers aren't really a thing in England as much as they are in America. But in America, there's a very common bumper sticker that you'll see on the back of people's cars and it says coexist. And each letter of the word coexist is a different one of the Christian symbols. And it's this idea that we can all just kind of, know, and there's no, none of these religions are higher or the right one. And that seems to be the same issue, I think here.

And that I think is part of what is so powerful when at the end, not to give it away, but what Nebuchadnezzar says, like, your God is the most powerful one. I find that interesting. I think that'd be a really interesting sort of society to live in. It's not wrong to worship another God, but Nebuchadnezzar wants them worshipping his gods, right? Yeah. And maybe we should read just a little bit of that passage. Let's look at the enormity of this standoff then, kind of between

(15:55.854)
Nebuchadnezzar and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, like what they actually say in response to him. I'm going to read from verse 13. This is in the ESV.

Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I've set up? Now, if you are ready, when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music to fall down and worship the image that I have made, well and good, but if you do not worship, you shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace.

and who is the God who will deliver you out of my hands?" Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego answered and said to the king, "'O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O King. But if not, be it known to you, O King, that we will not serve your gods

or worship the golden image that you have set

(17:24.896)
It's hard not to read that in a dramatic way because like you said, Mark, this story is really told in quite a theatrical way, isn't it? really is. It sets up this brilliant confrontation. one of the things that strikes me just as you read it then is how they just don't care. They don't even call him, great and mighty king.

Nebuchadnezzar or Your Majesty or anything like that. They just say Nebuchadnezzar. They don't use his title, they just use his name, which I'm sure was not etiquette at the time. And we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. That's the international version. So it doesn't really matter what you say. It doesn't really matter what you do. We're not part of this in a way. We have nothing to argue. We have nothing to explain.

we're not going to do it. that's that. Absolutely apparable. Well done. I mean, it forces Nebuchadnezzar, because the stakes are so high for them being disobedient, they're sort of forcing him to go through with that as well. There's no fudging around it. They're like, okay, let's see. Let's have this stand off. The other interesting thing is how they, you know, they don't say this because they think that God is going to rescue them.

least not because they're sure that God is going to rescue them. They say he can, but even if he doesn't, then they're still not going to do it. I mean, it's very thought provoking actually. And I remember years and years ago, was reading the story of a police officer who, back in the day, he was not a man of integrity. He was quite corrupt and he cut some corners in getting one of the local criminals.

arrested and charged and this guy went to prison. Anyway, this police officer became a Christian and terrible clangs of conscience. In the end, he went and he confessed to what he'd done. He said, look, I made up some evidence against those criminals in jail. Can't live with myself. Just need to confess. Now, what happens in a situation like that? So, know, maybe

(19:46.56)
maybe the authorities say, well, well done for confessing. We'll let the chap out. And that's that. you know, pat on the head and so on, sent on his way. You know, that would be a happy ending, but it didn't end like that. In fact, this guy was found guilty of misconduct in public office and dismissed from the police force. And he went to prison. That's the sort of decision, that's the sort of choice that people are sometimes faced with. Do I do the right

even though it might cost me everything. And that's the sort of thing that was happening here. Well, you're so right as well. Because I was feeling very challenged by it, but on a different kind of plane, because we are unlikely to be threatened with a fiery furnace if we don't go along with something because of our faith. But how often do we

stay silent or not do the right thing, go along with stuff when we haven't even been threatened. It's not really a matter of life and death like it is for for Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. But even then, even if nobody sort of directly threatens me, I might feel pressure anyway to go along with what is happening in the culture. So to see, to read this story and think, do I have the courage of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

I would say no, not at this point. I would like to, if tested, but maybe I have already been tested in some ways and I've not shown that courage. And then it's also, it's not so much just about having courage. It's just like, what's my view of the most high God in my life and what does being faithful to God look like to me? Because if I'm not willing to stick out like a sore thumb in this culture at various

then what are the implications of that? Very challenging, isn't it? So we find out what the implications are for Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. I'll read verses 19 through to 27.

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and throw them into the blazing furnace. So they tied them up, fully dressed, shirts, robes, caps and all, and threw them into the blazing furnace. Now because the king had given strict orders for the furnace to be made extremely hot, the flames burned up the guards who took the men to the furnace. Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, still tied up, fell into the heart of the blazing fire. Suddenly Nebuchadnezzar leapt to his feet in amazement.

He asked his officials, didn't we tie up three men and throw them into the blazing furnace? They answered, yes, we did, your majesty. Then why do I see four men walking around in the fire? He asked. They're not tied up and they show no sign of being hurt. And the fourth one looks like an angel. So Nebuchadnezzar went up to the door of the blazing furnace and called out, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, servants of the supreme God, come out. And they came out at once.

All the princes, governors, lieutenant governors, and other officials of the king gathered to look at the three men who had not been harmed by the fire. Their hair was not singed, their clothes were not burnt, and there was no smell of smoke on them." I think one of the things that has struck me when I've read this passage, firstly, is that we hear about the fourth man in the fire and we know that it's God. But I think, why do we know that it's God? Why is it clear that it's God? And if

Jesus. How would we know that? Like, do you get what I'm saying? Like, who is it and how do we know? Well, I think there are several, several ideas there. I mean, it doesn't say that it's God. It says, I think in your translation, it said it was an angel actually. In the New International, says, well, Nebuchadnezzar says that the fourth looks like a son of the gods.

So divine being, I mean there are several places in the Old Testament where there is a divine being who's almost sort of conflated with God in some ways. I mean I'm thinking of when Joshua before a battle, there's the commander of the armies of the Lord who meets him. Then there's Jacob at the forwards of the Jabok before he goes to meet Esau, wrestles with an angel.

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And some of the language which is used about that angel makes you think, are we meant to think that this is God himself or is it an angel of God? And the difference between the two isn't always clear cut. Yeah. I mean, so I've heard it said that when it says like the angel of the Lord and the Lord, you know, in our English translations is sort of in small caps, that that's different and it is somehow, you know,

Some people call it a Christophany, which is meant to be kind of Jesus, a physical kind of manifestation of Jesus, but obviously well before his actual incarnation that we read about in the New Testament. So it could be that. But yeah, I guess we can't know exactly, can we? We just know there's this fourth being in the fire, whether it is an angel sent by God for

It's a Christophany, it's Jesus before his incarnation. I do think your question about how do we know it's God, somehow this physical person that they can see is like God being present with them in the fire, isn't it? And protecting them. It's just so clear in the way the story has been told that there is a supernatural protection happening

Even, you know, not a hair on their head is burned up. But meanwhile, the guards who threw them into the furnace were killed because it was so hot that they just expired on the spot. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are fine. They're pulled out of the fire. can just, it's quite a funny scene again. All the officials, the king gathering around sort of sniffing them to see if they even smell singed and they don't, you know. So I think however you interpret

the fourth figure in the fire. think what we're saying is it's clear that God, their God, is protecting them in some way, shape or form. He's with them in the fire. They're not alone in there. me, what's more important is the symbolism of it, actually. I'm not a great fan of Christophanes, to be perfectly honest. Personally, I don't think that's what's going on

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that it's a sort of pre -existent manifestation of Jesus. But I think, you know, leave aside any sort of history that's going on here, I think it's so powerful what it says about God's presence with us, even when we are going through, you know, when we're going through our own personal fiery furnaces, because I think that is something which, you know, which really does happen. Sometimes

we do have that sense that God is present with us. We have that sense of being held. And somebody else might look at us and say, well, how on earth did you cope with this? Well, there's the fourth man in the fire. And that's how. I wonder if I can tell my polar exploration story. I do like all these wonderful stories of the early years of mountain exploration and stuff like

Possibly the greatest of all these stories is Ernest Shackleton's expedition to the South Atlantic, 1912 it was that he set out. Anyway, the ship wrecked, they spent months and months on a very inhospitable island called Elephant Island. In the end they decided that nobody was going to come and rescue them, so they had to send for help. So Shackleton and five other men got into a lifeboat. They managed to navigate across the South Atlantic to

South Georgia where they knew that there was a whaling station. Terrible voyage. The weather was so cold that where they were rowing they had blisters on their fingers and the water in the blisters froze because it was so cold. All that kind of thing. it was nasty. Anyway, they got to South Georgia. Three of them were completely done in. They landed on the wrong side of the island.

Shackleton and two others had to climb this island, which had never been done before, cross the island and get to the whaling station on the other side. And it was one of the great survival feats in history, basically. But I'll just read you just a couple of sentences from Shackleton's memoirs. And he said, I know that during that long and racking march of 36 hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia,

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It seemed to me that often we were four, not three. I said nothing to my companions on the point, but afterwards, Frank Worsley said to me, boss, I had a curious feeling on the march that there was another person with us. And Tom Crean, the other one, confessed to the same idea, he said. And I just think that's an amazing story. it's almost as though this idea of being held

by the presence of God. It's almost as if that became a literal reality for them. This speaks to me so encouragingly. I think when I fear that I'm about to go through a great trial, my initial prayer at least, I think this is natural, but my initial prayer to God is that I won't end up in the furnace, that He'll intervene so that I don't have to go through

But they could have prayed, couldn't they? There could have been a little section of Daniel where they prayed and then something happened and they never had to go into the furnace. But that's not what happened. They were sent into the furnace. They were not spared from this crisis point. But God protects them during that time. He's with them during that time and He delivers them from the furnace. And I

that's got to be encouraging for anyone, hasn't it? And maybe we'll even change the way we pray when we're going through these difficult times. Yeah, that's really good. Let's move on to the final section. Mark, could you read for us verses 28 to 30?

and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own god. Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the god of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way." Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the province of Babylon. Yeah, I think this is so interesting.

(31:45.282)
the fallout after the furnace goes, because surely this would have been a deeply embarrassing incident. You know, all of the money that's gone into making a gold statue, all of the hoo -ha with the ceremony of everybody sort of bowing down to it, it's been tested immediately. And now, well, there's this most high god who has protected his people. Like Nebuchadnezzar said, like, who's going to deliver you from my hand?

basically Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego's God has delivered them. So what's the point in continuing with the golden statue? You almost feel like there's this very awkward situation. I'm sure some of them would have liked to have just brushed the whole instant under the carpet, but there were too many eyes on it, too many people involved. So there had to be some kind of response. And I just think it's interesting that, you know, we had one decree, you must worship the statue, and now Nebuchadnezzar issues a new decree.

which is equally extreme really. I wonder if that was actually upheld. We don't know, do we? But it's certainly a statement has gone out, hasn't it? Saying nobody is able to protect like the god of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Yeah. Pretty amazing witness and outcome to the whole situation. I wonder what you guys think though. Do you think that Nebuchadnezzar comes out of this situation believing in their god?

So don't necessarily think that's the case because here he says, praise the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So it's interesting to me because I think if you saw this sort of a miracle, right, we would say today, if you see an amazing God do an amazing miracle, surely someone would then turn from what they were doing before and they would be converted and they would turn to God. But Nebuchadnezzar here, when I read this, I see

a king who's impressed by power. He sees a God who can do powerful things and he's very impressed by it and he's acknowledging it. But he's not saying, this is now my God, or I now believe that this is sort of the one true God. think nowadays we tend to draw this sharp line between believing and not believing. So if you believe in God, you're a Christian. But certainly back in the ancient world, it wasn't like that at

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you you can believe in all sorts of gods. You know, we've talked about this before, haven't we? The question is which God you actually serve, follow, and worship. And actually, you know, you could serve and follow and worship all sorts of them. You know, many different ones, they had different functions. But I think the point about the God of Israel, and you know, we say today the point about following Jesus is that you follow him and nobody else.

So it's not a sort of intellectual thing about whether a particular god existed or not. It's who you're actually going to trust, who you're actually going to follow, who you're going to worship. he does say there is no other god who can rescue like this. So there is some acknowledgement that this is different. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's saying there is no other god who can rescue like this, but there are lots of other gods. This is, you know, this is a particularly

particularly powerful one. I mean, to your point though that, we think if today we saw a miracle, we'd respond to that and be like, I don't think that's true. Think how many people walked with Jesus, heard the things he said, saw the things he did, and did not believe in him. We can be very stubborn and we can disbelieve what we have seen or we can rationalize things

Just seeing a miracle doesn't necessarily boom, now I see it all and I believe. You turn it to it's like a sign, it points to something. And I think what we can see here is like a sign has occurred. Like this is something that can't be ignored by Nebuchadnezzar, all the people looking on and certainly won't be ignored by the exiles themselves who are living in this culture and...

you know, trying to live faithfully, this is an encouraging sign to them. So for whoever you are looking on, something that can't be ignored has happened. It has implications. And they've got to process that and think about it, haven't they? Yeah, I think that miracles more bring people to a sort of decision point where they have to go either that means something or it doesn't to me, basically, I'm going to change because of that or not, more so than it's a sort of proof or evidence that you just can't ignore.

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I think we'll wrap there, but thank you Mark and Esther for looking at this passage with me. It's so good, so interesting. We'll leave you with this question to think over in relation to this passage. How do you see God moving in your life right now? Maybe you're in the middle of a fire, you're going through something difficult. Maybe just take a moment to think that through. How has God been with you in that situation and how can you thank Him for it? Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. Let us know what you thought on Spotify or YouTube.

and please feel free to leave us a review. And we'll see you next week. And we're going to be talking about the story of Nebuchadnezzar's madness, which should be very interesting. Looking forward to it. So we'll see you then.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world, visit biblesociety