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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
e146. Building a Partnership and Regenerative Ranch with McKinley Smoot and Mitch Dumke
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[00:00:00] Cal
Welcome to the Grazing Grasses podcast episode 146.
[00:00:04] McKinley
Learn how to do financial planning
and incorporate your financial planning into your grazing management,
[00:00:12] Cal
You're listening to the grazing grass, podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today.
impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy to follow techniques to quickly assess your forage production and infrastructure capacity.
In order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at noble. org slash grazing. It's n o b l e dot org forward slash grazing.
On today's episode, we have McKinley Smoot and Mitch donkey of three Springs landing cattle, them along with their co-founder James Gilson started three Springs land and livestock in Utah. Where they grass finish grassfed and grass-finished cattle, as well as doing pastured chickens. We talked about how that works with three people. And getting started. And some of those growing pains when you're getting started. And we had a growing pain ourselves on the podcast. Midway through the episode. Mitch's mic decided.
I don't know what it decide, but anyway, we didn't get audio.
So the first half of the podcast. We're talking to McKinley and Mitch. And then for the last half, it's just McKinley. So that. The episode's a little choppy in places. I've tried to edit that and fix that. And that's completely on me. The software gave me an error, but I still thought we were okay. And ended up losing some, a Mitch's audio. Really good episode.
I think you'll enjoy it. Uh, 10 seconds about my farm. I hate to admit this. Um, I'm feeding hay to my cows. You know, I've talked, we were in a little bit of a drought. We're kind of wet now. And I may mention. I've fed a few bales to them.
So not a great lot, but I'm about to. Kick it up a gear, and this is the earliest I have fed hay. In years. Um, Some years are like that. So. It's where we are on the farm. 10 seconds about the podcast. I mentioned last week, we're going to do kind of a podcast refresh. And I said, mid December, I think we're going to start that December 1st or. The first episode in December.
So next week, I still got a couple. Uh, pieces to fall into place, but I think we're going to be ready to do a little bit of a transition. For you when you're listening, just know it. Won't start with. Welcome to the grazing grass podcast. We're going to start it a little bit different. Same great content and hopefully a better resource for you. And speaking of resources, I was listening to a podcast the other day. And they have a new listener resource guide. So immediately. I went to their site, signed up for it and received it.
I looked at it. I thought, you know, We should do that for the Grazing Grass Podcast, but I wanted to do it a little bit different rather than being something you download that gets lost on your hard drive or you see it for a minute and it's gone. It's a four day email.
Series, I guess would be the right word. So sign up. You get an email talks about podcasts. Next day, you're getting mail talks about me. Following day about the community and resources and the fourth day, some other resources. So just to get you more knowledgeable about the podcast. You can sign up for it at the website, go to grazing grass.com.
We have a banner tops. A new listener resource guide, click on it and you can sign up for it. You can also, we will put a link in our show notes as well. I know we're calling it the new listener resource guide, but I encourage you to go to it. And click on it, even if you're, OGN been here a while. Give you more information and we'll see how it goes.
I hope it provides value to you.
I'd love to get feedback on it if it does, if it doesn't. But it's available. Um, with that said, let's go ahead and talk to the McKinley. For the episode and talk to Mitch for a little bit at the beginning.
[00:05:21] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
McKinley and Mitch, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast. We're excited you're here today.
[00:05:28] McKinley
Wonderful
[00:05:28] Mitch
to be here.
Yeah, really appreciate it.
[00:05:31] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Well, to get started, why don't we start with Mitch right off? Because Mitch was the person I talked to first. Mitch, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[00:05:42] Mitch
Yes, sir. You bet. So my name is Mitch Dumpke. I'm living in Salt Lake City, Utah, but ranch with my partner, McKinley, and other partner, James, up in the Kams Valley of Utah, east of Salt Lake Valley. Yeah, I grew up in Utah, born and raised, had a few stints elsewhere, but I had a. 10 year run in the tech industry and product management and we've spent the last we're in our fourth season now as Three Springs Land and Livestock. So just getting our operation going as a regenerative holistic ranch, but that's a little bit about me. I got four young kids, 10, 7, 5 and a year old. So staying busy with the kiddos,
[00:06:19] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yes, you are. Yes. McKinley, tell us a little bit about you.
[00:06:24] McKinley
Yeah, I'm McKinley Smoot. I I grew up on a cattle ranch. My dad was a holistic resource manager back in the day, which has now kind of turned into holistic management. And so I just kind of grew up around that being very not paying attention as kids and teenagers do. I didn't really notice why. dad was trying to do was important anyway, so that was in the early 90s and he ended up getting out of that and went, went into real estate, which was kind of the family business. And so, right now, that's also what I do and we just started this cattle ranch and we, we lease a bunch of land in, in the Camas Valley and. My my wife is actually four and a half months pregnant, which is great.
And
[00:07:11] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Congratulations.
[00:07:12] McKinley
thank you. And so we're, we're all just starting a whole, a whole thing here. Families,
[00:07:19] Mitch
starting our herds. That's right.
[00:07:22] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
So my question for both of you, McKinley, it sounds like you grew up around ranching. So you may have thought, Hey, this is something I have some interest in.
[00:07:32] McKinley
Yeah. You know, I had no interest if it oddly
enough, I had, I had no interest in it until 20, 23 years old and I'm 32 now, so. I didn't understand it. Part of the reason my dad did a lot of custom grazing for different people. And so there wasn't, which, which was great, but there wasn't like an attachment of like, this is our herd, or this is like these animals, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's great, but it's a little bit less involved.
And so I just didn't understand it. I didn't care as a teenager, you know, things I cared about were, you know, Not that you know, sports and all that. And so then I I actually stumbled upon, and my dad told me all the, all these stories growing up about working with these people. I had no idea who they are, but then I saw Alan Savory's Ted talk. And
that, that kind of. Changed the trajectory of my life pretty dramatically and ended up getting a credit, becoming an accredited professional with them about 5, 6 years ago and spending time with, with the folks there and then also with Alan himself and, and so we're trying to incorporate a lot of the holistic management framework into our operation, which shouldn't be that difficult, but it is, has been a challenge over time.
[00:08:56] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Now, that was prior to you all starting Three Springs Land and Cattle, correct?
[00:09:01] McKinley
It was. Yeah.
[00:09:03] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
so why did you decide to go on that path of getting that accreditation?
[00:09:08] McKinley
You know, it's, that's a really good question. I, at the time I was really getting into Birdwatching ornithology is this
kind of like spending spending time looking through binoculars a lot. And I began to notice that there were a really dramatically high on our cattle ranch, high numbers of birds where the cattle had been or where they were going to.
And
[00:09:30] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes.
[00:09:32] McKinley
so, I had just gotten interested in kind of into ecology and the environment and just from a recreational standpoint. And then I all of a sudden had that through watching that video realize that I can actually, we, you know, people can make decisions that directly impact that it's not just a thing that we visit or you know, it's like, oh, I spent some time in nature.
It's like, oh, no, I actually have any relationship
[00:09:59] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:10:00] McKinley
or, you know, God's creation or, or however you want to refer to it. And that's a, that was a lot more impactful for me. And so I was like, I have to do this. And then once I started doing it, it's like, oh, there's nothing else I can do.
[00:10:16] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah, down that rabbit hole, you're, you're lost now.
[00:10:19] McKinley
I'm cooked.
[00:10:20] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Or, or found, I don't know. Now,
[00:10:23] McKinley
both at the same time.
[00:10:24] Mitch
It's deep. He's he's gone.
[00:10:27] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
one thing when you say that, I find very interesting. I just watched the Roots So Deep documentary. And, we, we have birds on our land. You know, I, I know where we'll have some bobwhite. The meadowlarks are thick. The killdeer love to nest on my driveway. And, in watching that documentary, I was shocked by how different the bird populations of grassland birds could be from one farm to the next farm.
And I really had not considered that before I watched that. So watching or doing bird watching and seeing birds out there. That's amazing. And as you, you watch that, it's like, Oh, wait, everyone else doesn't have the Mandalarks and the Bob White here. So that was very interesting and somewhat eye opening to me.
So I think that's very interesting, McKinley, that, that was kind of your path in was.
[00:11:24] McKinley
It was, it was, it was It was like a very small detail in my life. It wasn't like this big thing. It was just like, I just drew me to it. Yeah, it's odd. It's odd. The things in life
[00:11:35] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, it, it is. It's amazing that this happens and somewhere you're doing this now. Yeah. Mitch, for you, did you always think, Hey, I'm going to have a ranch and raise cattle?
[00:11:49] Mitch
You know, before we started this ranch, right before we started, I actually I was a vegan vegetarian trying to save the planet by not eating meat. So that's kind of where I, that's where my head was at. So, excuse me The third part of Three Springs Land and Livestock is our partner, James Gilson. He was a longtime friend of mine and I was working in tech. I was trying to save the planet by not eating meat. I was involved, involved more in environmental interests than. Agricultural interests. And he happened to, James happened to hunt an elk and he offered me some of his elk meat and I told him, I'm not eating meat. I'm saving the planet. And he kind of scoffed at me and said, no, you can eat good meat.
It's good for the planet. And I didn't believe him. And Anyway, he sent me the TED talk by Alan Savory,
and I sent, I sent him some other video that I thought was teaching me all the right things about meat and all, and, and, and understandably industry, industrial agriculture does have a lot of detrimental
environmental issues.
And so it's not, I'm not trying to throw the baby out the bathwater there, but he showed me that TED talk. It, it through, it reminded me of some stuff I heard from Patagonia long ago about some bison ranches and, and anyway, it, It got me thinking, and then the real fortuitous thing, kind of McKinley's bird moment, was when our partner James went to look at a a house listing near McKinley, and McKinley was the listing agent. So McKinley is showing this random guy named James. The house and happens to mention that he was accredited with the savory Institute. He didn't realize that James had just been down the rabbit hole of savory Institute.
And then that connected, James called me afterward. Like he had seen an angel, which he was.
If McKinley threw his hair back, you could see the angelic form
that exists, you know? But anyway, we kind of chatted more and more over six months, got to know each other. Cause we really didn't, McKinley didn't know us. You know, and we didn't know McKinley and it was kind of a little bit of a dance, but it felt pretty good.
And we decided let's buy some cattle. We bought three pair of heads three pair of cattle in June of 2021. And the week later we, and we, at the same time, we bought our first 150 broilers. And that kind of just kickstarted the whole thing. McKinley had posted previously on Facebook and a community saying, Hey, I want to try this agriculture is for generative agriculture.
Did anyone have some land? And we really got connected to an amazing family that connected us to about 150 acres and for the first
three years we had a, we had a free lease with them
[00:14:27] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:14:27] Mitch
We're now, we're now paying them a lease. We want to operate a profitable business, recognizing all true expenses. So, anyway, we're doing that now and it's, it's been a great thing, but my, my goal was never raising cattle. I. I love the open land. I love where we ranch. I've gone up here my whole life. My, you know, everyone's grandfather or great grandfather was a rancher, herder, farmer of some kind. And so I have that same connection to the land.
But yeah, I came to it more from a environmental standpoint about healing landscapes and bringing back ecological functions to our, To our soil systems and our grasslands.
[00:15:06] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
So, very interesting journeys for both of you to get to where you are now. You know, I recall reading that about you being a vegan on your all's website.
Mitch, how long were you a vegan, Mitch?
[00:15:20] Mitch
Oh, just about a year and a half. Just enough to be dangerous and
think I was doing the right thing. No, I, I, I respect people for different reasons making those decisions. I think you know, I, I think I was eating a lot of the wrong kind of meats. You know, I don't think a fast food burger is the same thing as the grass finished beef we have in
our freezer right,
now.
And so, so, you know, I, I think there was some, some well intention behind that. And I think there's a lot of people who, who have those same and different intentions, but yeah, just, just probably about a year and a half there.
[00:15:51] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
which is an interesting journey and you know, people come to it for different reasons and whatever the reasons are, I cannot knock those. I think it's great we have different viewpoints and we're able to have discussions about them. I think my wife would very readily be a vegan. But she married someone who likes livestock and raises too many of them, and we have to eat them.
So, you know, it's
[00:16:14] Mitch
that's right. It's an inventory issue. Like, sweetheart, we,
I can't, I don't know, what else are we going to do?
You know, the, that, that vegan thing is, you know, we actually have, there's a, we have a great customer. I call her Vicky the vegan. And because she, she legitimately calls herself that she's a
[00:16:30] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes.
[00:16:31] Mitch
but she came to our farm. She came to the park city farmer's market where we sell. And she asked about how we raise our birds and everything else. And she's like, you know what? I just haven't eaten chicken for 10, 20 years. I can't remember how long because it never makes me feel good. said, well, this is how we raise it.
I'm not forcing you to. And she said, I'll try one. And then she went home that night and showed her husband. She said, look what I got at the market with you when you were out and about. And he pulls out his bag. He says, well, when I was at the market, I bought a chicken from him too. So they come home with two chickens
[00:17:01] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yes.
[00:17:02] Mitch
they were shopping separate.
And anyway, she comes back every year. And you know, the, the, how it's raised and the nutritional value of that meat is so important. We, We, spend a lot of time testing our meat every year. And educating our customers about the nutrient density of our meat compared to other to, to compare to other practices and other ranches not to necessarily make ourselves better to just make sure people feel informed about what they're putting into their body and what, and the value they're buying.
[00:17:30] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah. I think that piece right there, that connection to where your food comes from is so important and we're so disconnected. I mean, I know I get a lot of my food through the McDonald's drive thru and far as I know, that's where it comes from. So it's so important that we, we go beyond that and we're, we're, Going out to those farms.
That's what I love about agro tourism. Getting that connection back to the land and where our food comes from and to understand what's going on for the consumer as well as the farmer. I think it's really important. Now we, we talked a little bit about both your journeys, but you all came together and Mitch, you mentioned this a little bit ago, how you all met and then you decided to start a ranch together.
[00:18:15] Mitch
That's right. And I always think about it, that we kind of came from three different viewpoints and McKinley chime in here, please, too. But, you know, from my perspective, I came from an from an environmental. Specifically, James came in from a nutritional health perspective a
little bit and McKinley, I don't know how you would define why, how you came into it a little more from you had more of the agricultural background and ranching background.
[00:18:40] McKinley
a certain degree. Yeah. I don't know. It's just kind of, I, I, I truly, I just, I feel like I just meant that's what I'm supposed to do
at this point. I mean, I, I, I love the, I love the environmental standpoint. And, you know, I think, you know, I, I feel like we, Mitch and I talked to so many people who don't think that there's any money in agriculture.
And that's really concerning,
[00:19:04] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, that is. Yeah.
[00:19:06] McKinley
from just like a future parent and parent standpoint of like, yeah, there's no future. And if there's no future in agriculture, I mean, it's a, it's problematic 100 years in the future. And so I think we're, we're kind of on a mission to, to show like, no, you can, you can make it and you don't need to be massive. It'd
be this massive ranch or anything like that. And so, and then also making it work for our community and our communities. Highly supportive of us. I mean, that's the most inspiring and energizing part, I think of the whole thing. And so, yeah, I, I, I don't know what viewpoint I came through to, to go, to try to figure out, it just, there's something pushing me to do it and I don't know what it is.
[00:19:51] Mitch
something that's strong with us, Cal, though, is that the fact that where we ranch is in the Kamas Valley. It's east of Park City, Utah, about 25 minutes east of Park City.
And if people have heard of Park City, it's a. It's a very well to do. It's the wealthiest county in Utah. It's kind of like an Aspen or a Tahoe or Vail or
something. And so there's a lot of pressure on our valley for they always say the millionaire, the billionaires push out the millionaires. And, and, you know, that's nothing wrong if they want to come here, but it's kind of about how the land is getting developed in that process and the land values.
There's some challenges around that. And we want to give ourselves and any other producer the opportunity for their land to stay profitable, to stay in their family and to move on to the next generation.
And so we have a lot of real, still beautiful, open landscapes, and we want our best to help show the profitability productivity in the practices and principles that we follow.
[00:20:53] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yeah. That's that is a, a problem. So many people are dealing with that farmland is getting sold and developed and they're not making any more farmland.
So. And like you said there, if you're not profitability, if you're not profitable, you're not sustainable. So you've got to have that profitability mindset so that, so you can be here in 10 years.
[00:21:18] McKinley
Yeah, in our country, it's funny you say that, if profitability means the land stays open,
[00:21:27] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yeah.
[00:21:28] McKinley
because it, I mean, then the next generation's interested in it. It's like, oh, you
made money, you made money doing this. And it feels like those two things are directly correlated that whether the land has declined through practices or because land values have climbed and things are still the same. If the profitability isn't there, it seems like the land. At this point in the history of our country, it just disappears for
an economic engine. It's very I don't know what, I don't know what, how to critique that or what to say about that, but it's kind of scary.
[00:22:02] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah. I'm not sure what the solution there is. Hopefully this podcast helping share how other people are doing things, encourage producers, take that next step on their journey can help some people be a little bit more profitable. Do a little bit more sustainable or regionality practices. Y'all got together, you started this farm you bought a few pair of cows and broilers, you, you, you were able to find some land to use and did you have to do anything to get ready or did you just, were you able to just go buy some cows and buy get some chicks?
[00:22:40] McKinley
Yeah we you know, we bought some electric fencing equipment and we had to fix up a few fences, but that was really it.
And being creative. And then we, we also, we, we are indebted to Joel Salatin's Lego handbook of how to build structure structures. So we built a Salatin style chicken tractor and that was about it at the time.
[00:23:03] Mitch
Yeah, good fences. The, the land we were running was historically. cattle, ran cattle
on it, kind of in a continuous grainies grazing model. So like McKinley said, the fences needed some tightening and a little fixing, but we I think, I think starting with six cattle was just a godsend for us for a few reasons, because we started in 2021, which in Utah in the Western United States was a drought year.
[00:23:29] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh
[00:23:30] Mitch
So, you know, operating at that time was really on 45 acres and to only have six cattle on 45 acres was really fortuitous. So we weren't, we weren't having to sell off anything. You know, we, we really did tight daily management, daily moves. I mean, six cattle, we had them on. What, McKinley, third acre or quarter acre paddocks.
[00:23:50] McKinley
An 8th and a, and like a 3rd.
[00:23:53] Mitch
I mean, enough to keep them comfortable. Like
it, they were tiny and we looked silly. We looked silly at some level moving this small little herd every single day. Relative to our community, that's not the common
practice.
[00:24:07] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
right,
[00:24:08] Mitch
but there's a good way for us to cut our teeth and, and figure out a few things and you know, to swing from that dry year to then having two of the largest snowfalls on record which is where we get most of our precipitation from was. Kind of a good, good experience on both sides of the
spectrum. But yeah, that first year was that first year was pretty interesting that way. Just we didn't have, when you have six cows, you kind of look at each other and you say, okay, where are we going to make money for the next two years? Because those little heifers, those little bulls aren't going to. Turn into anything for 24, 26 more months, you know,
like, so how as a startup, do you make money in the ranching business and chickens were going to be our profit center in the short term to actually get some cashflow going. And that's really why James pretty much on his own bought 150 chickens. And then. After, after he ordered the chickens, we had to build, we didn't build a brooder. We threw them in a shed
[00:25:11] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yes.
[00:25:12] Mitch
And then and we were building the Salton tractors while they were brooding. And that is not what I recommend ever. But that's what we did. And, you know, I, I don't think this is a, a unique quote on any ranch, let alone a startup, but our, our unofficial slogan is we'll figure it out. And you know. That's, that's not a bad thing either.
[00:25:37] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
You know, Mitch, I, I think the first time I raised some brooders, I decided I was going to do a few pastured poultry. I think I was needed to move them out as I was finishing up my Salatin pen so I could get them moved out, you know? So I do get that. Yeah.
[00:25:54] Mitch
Yeah,
[00:25:55] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
So, and I think you bring up a great point there.
Cattle's not a quick profit. You're not going to put some cows out there and say, Oh, this is where our income's coming in. It takes a long time to get them to market. So settling on chickens, I think was a very good move, but how did that go for you all? Were you able to, to grow them and keep them alive and get them to market?
Because that's the first part before you get to
market, you got to keep them alive.
[00:26:25] McKinley
Yeah. The, the chickens, we, we had, we've, you know, for that 1st group we had some predator issues. We
used just normal chicken wire and we were in a riparian area and kind of bordering wilderness area in Utah, which means there's a lot of. Skunks and raccoons. So we had a, we had a predator event and probably killed 10,
[00:26:48] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh
[00:26:49] McKinley
The first night.
[00:26:51] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, no.
[00:26:53] McKinley
but then we figured out how to take care of that and then we didn't have any loss after that. So we, we were, but yeah, no, we had that experience. It was really the, the, the following year that we had a lot more issues with mortality.
[00:27:07] Mitch
Yeah. And, and 150 birds. This is your question on the market. I mean, we were 100, we had zero mortality in the brooder stage. We, I think we finished probably 120 birds, McKinley. Honestly, I can't remember the exact number.
[00:27:22] McKinley
Yeah, something like
that.
[00:27:24] Mitch
you know, we, we slaughtered him in the field over two days, highly
inefficient, But But we got it done and 120 birds, that's family and friends.
That's pretty easy to move at some level. Like, you know, we had enough of a community at that point. We had enough fans and family that we, we could sell those pretty quick. We didn't have to get her. We didn't have to have it all figured out. So that first year was a good test run. Profitability doesn't really exist, especially with three partners at 120 birds,
[00:27:50] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
No, it doesn't. Yeah.
[00:27:52] Mitch
but what it did do for us is it Put us in a place in the community as pastured poultry producers, which
are few and far between in Utah, let alone probably, you know, relative to the number of birds produced in this country.
It's very small, but especially in Utah. And so. By us putting us positioned as a pasture poultry producer especially in park city, where they are an affluent community who spend a lot of money on their health and on healthy food. We got our name recognition and a brand established as that. And so we've been doing that year over year. And now all of a sudden, when we want to sell beef, we already have an email
list of 700 people.
And we've got people asking us every time we're selling chicken, do you sell beef? And we just say, well, hold, hold on and we'll get you there, you know?
And so it was very helpful that we had established that base through a unique value proposition as, as poultry. But McKinley kind of hinted at it, but the next year we we decided to grow our operation. But in growing our operation, we we actually, well, I guess it was not the next year, but the year after,
2023, where we had a predation event of 190 birds out of 240 birds killed by
a skunk, a
baby skunk, a young skunk, and going into 2024, we barely wanted to do chickens at all. Because it
was just so traumatic for a lot of reasons and not just the overall, our mortality rate last year on chickens was 41 percent for a host of reasons. It was horrible. We
[00:29:33] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, wow.
[00:29:33] Mitch
out of 1500 birds. 41 percent never made it to a customer. But we kind of look back and we just said, our community knows us for our poultry if anything else, we need to at least continue that brand recognition and marketing effort, but our customers also really want this product where we already sell out of it too fast as it is. And so it's kind of been an interesting place. A lot of people know us as the chicken people, even though. I think we kind of consider ourselves as equally cattle people, but to our end consumer, it's more of the chicken.
[00:30:13] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
And that may have been their first connection with you. And then the beef's coming on a little bit later. Now, one thing I think I read on your website, you guys are non GMO and soy free. Have
you been doing that with your chickens the whole time?
[00:30:29] Mitch
want me to go on this McKinley? I've, well, maybe one thing
[00:30:34] McKinley
no, you got it. You know it.
[00:30:37] Mitch
we can talk about later, but you know, we've kind of tried to figure out divisions of labor a little bit this year. And so, I spent more time in the chicken world. McKinley spent more time in the cattle world.
We still, we still share chores occasionally and all that, but it's, it's been a little helpful, I think, for us to be able to go a little deeper and a little more on that journey. We've always been non GMO. We had organic our first year, but we had corn and soy in it. People love the organic label and the non GMO label, but then, you know, our, our fancy friends who like to buy our food, ask for non, non GMO. Corn and non soy,
you know, and for many listeners wondering why it's primarily because of the omega sixes that are present in corn and soy. They're not bad for you, but in the amounts that we consume them in our American diet, there's a lot of corn and soy. And so for us we said, well, let's try a corn free, soy free feed. So we bought. We went all in on organic, corn free, soy free, non GMO. I think we had every label you think someone would want to pay a premium, and it backfired. It backfired horribly, and that led to a lot of the death of our birds last year,
[00:31:48] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes.
[00:31:50] Mitch
because For a host of reasons, but a couple of specific reasons would be that the soy replacement with sesame seed, you have to be careful with sesame seed because it's high in phytic acid, which compromises calcium nutrient absorption. If your birds don't have calcium and they're a fast growing bird, like a Cornish
cross, they could get rickets. So we had birds in our. Mobile structures with rickets essentially unable to move themselves. So Cal Hill, here we are trying to be this holistic humane operation, but somehow in the process, we got our birds unable to move themselves in the pasture.
And so I kind of jokingly and saddeningly would call ourselves a mobile CAFO, where we were just, we, we, it, it's traumatic to talk about, but we had to like, Hand move a hundred
birds every day, 24 feet in the field. It was not our best moment. It was frustrating because we were trying to do our best to help our animals. And I think we over prioritize the needs of our customer over the needs of the animal.
[00:32:55] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes.
[00:32:56] Mitch
so this season we went back to being actually still soy free. But corn, but having a local non GMO corn sourced.
We worked with local millers, instead of buying feed from California. We bought feed once last year and it sat and oxidized by the end of the year and wasn't as good. This year we said we want fresh milled feed, no older than 30 days. So we always had fresh feed coming in, locally sourced. More connection to the growers and millers. And yeah, our mortality rate was 2. 6 percent this year.
[00:33:28] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, very good. Very good.
[00:33:30] Mitch
Anyway, that's a long answer to your question about being corn free or being soy free, but that's the context.
I think if you want to be organic, at least in Utah, you've got to be buying inputs from Asia, which for us in our holistic context, that's not where we want to be.
So it's a little bit of our background there.
[00:33:51] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
And Mitch, really appreciate you sharing that struggle of 2023 because wherever a person is on this journey, Everything's just not peaches and cream.
[00:34:03] Mitch
No,
[00:34:04] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
You're gonna, you're gonna, have some, some growing. I can't even think right word, but you're going to have some issues that you're going to have to overcome, whatever they may be.
You know, I always think back and I don't even know where I've heard this, but, and it, It's the, you know, like when a rocket's headed towards the spaceships head towards the moon, you know, they're making minor adjustments all the time to the course. Every once in a while they're checking are we still aimed for the right spot.
That visual for me just really says it in what we're doing. We're looking at this angle that's very complex because as anyone from the Savory Institute will tell us, you know, as we look at this whole system, it's not an easy, simple, We're looking at that and we're trying to get there, but we're going to have to make adjustments over time to figure out how to get there.
So I appreciate you sharing your struggle because so often we get the highlight reel on Instagram and it's important that people realize we do have these struggles.
[00:35:06] Mitch
Yeah.
the the we try to be a. Edutainment on social
[00:35:12] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yes.
[00:35:13] Mitch
We try to be transparent though. And I think that's one of the benefits and blessings of our, the way we're organized is that me, McKinley and James aren't family. We're not a fourth generation ranch. That's maybe in the red right now. And there's a little bit of pride and protection to the family name to not want to admit. The things that aren't going well. We show our financials. If anyone asks, I have a live spreadsheet of all of the
expenses this year associated with our poultry, we'll share our, we'll share our, we'll share our sales with our customers or anyone who wants to know. So to us, it's so valid. It's so valuable to have the education and transparency in your operation, because if. I am so blessed to, we are collectively, but I've really been going to the APA conference every year. The American Pastured Poultry Producer Association
[00:36:10] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes.
[00:36:11] Mitch
They have an amazing community forum group online. It's 50 bucks to be a member or 60 bucks. And I mean, wow. Holy cow, I've easily saved a thousand dollars in, in saving chickens life and cost.
I mean, it's, it's so valuable. I'll be speaking at it this year, actually, about some of our learnings from 2023. But the, the community around. Agriculture is really important and we just feel really fortunate to, to have all that support.
[00:36:41] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, excellent. On the poultry. I raised one group before a pasture poultry and that's all I did, but actually I have a few chicks in the brooder right now that I'm
going to do. It's kind of late in the season, but I have a little bit better, better weather than you all do.
[00:36:58] Mitch
Yeah. Yeah. It snowed yesterday here, so we're not putting anything out in the field.
[00:37:03] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:04] Mitch
One thing to, I'll tell this to the Atlanta listener who cares, but Cornish cross don't do as well at five above 5, 000 feet and we
should have known better. We're at 6, 500 feet. So, So, we go, we went freedom ranger this year and we strongly
[00:37:18] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes. And that worked out well for you.
[00:37:21] Mitch
Fantastic.
Super resilient to the cold weather, the warm weather, the fluctuations, just a little more personality. So there's, there's a, we really enjoy the Freedom Ranger. The meat quality was great. Took a little longer to get to, to wait, but but we made up for it in a lot, in a And the ones that survived.
So,
[00:37:41] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Are you looking at like a 10 week or 12 week growth period versus eight weeks or
[00:37:46] Mitch
yeah, originally we thought we'd do 10 weeks on the roosters and 11 and 12 weeks on the hens. We ended up slaughtering all around 11
[00:37:54] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:37:54] Mitch
worked out well. That, that
was a, that was the, our average weight was about just under four and a half pounds of dressed weight on whole birds. So
[00:38:02] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Very good.
Did you notice did you notice when you compare the feed intake for your Freedom Rangers to feed intake of your Cornish Cross? Was there a big difference even though you're keeping them 1. 5 times as long?
[00:38:19] Mitch
Yeah, we, we know, we noticed that you know, it's about 12 to 13 pounds on a Cornish and then for our freedoms, it was about 17 or 18 pounds per
bird for the life of the bird. So it does add up. And. They're ravenous. I mean, the challenge for us is we don't live on the farm. We don't live on the ranch.
So ideally, you can feed birds twice in a day, at least.
And that kind of helps them manage their consumption habits a little bit. But because we are off farm. When we go, we give them the feed in the mid morning and they're pretty ravenous if they didn't get
enough the night before and we're trying to avoid the ravenous feeding because we don't want them to be scratching each other, injuring each other, creating blood because then they peck the blood, then they get the blood, they like
the taste, you know, it's a more, it's a, it's a cannibalistic world out there. So, We ended up trying to give them more than they needed every day.
So our feed management was a little tricky that way because we don't live on farm. But yeah, and we don't do like soaked feed. Soaked feed would also help with saving amount of feed you give them. If you let it ferment for 24 hours, it unlocks more of the nutrients. It expands in their gut with water as well. So they don't have to eat as much that way. But anyway
[00:39:41] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah. Very interesting. It reminds me of myself at a buffet. I try to avoid them now,
[00:39:46] Mitch
yeah, yeah.
[00:39:49] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
McKinley, we've left you out just a little bit talking about these chickens.
Let's, let's talk about y'all's cattle. What, obviously I have to ask what breed you all went with and how's the cattle portion of your farm going?
[00:40:05] McKinley
You know, the cows are, they're just a lot less maintenance than the, than the poultry.
[00:40:09] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yes. Yeah.
[00:40:10] McKinley
They're, they're part of the family at this point. But yeah, we went with The three we bought were just kind of conventional. One was a baldy cow. One was a, a Simmental Angus mix. And then the other one was just a black Angus.
But after talking to, you know, Alan Williams, he, he made a recommendation of looking at At least the closest in our area that was kind of bonafide was looking at 5L Red Angus. So we ended up getting some Red Angus cattle that their phenotypes kind of a little bit. On the smaller side of moderate
frame, frame cattle, and they're, they look like refrigerators turned on their sides and just very thrifty, their capacity to eat grass is just unbelievable. And so, we ended up going that route and then we recently just bought some baldies and black Angus because it's relatively difficult to find cattle at the
[00:41:10] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yeah.
[00:41:11] McKinley
We're really looking to grow the herd. So we bought, we bought 10 more heifers just recently. And so, yeah, that was kind of the breed we, we, we like we're not really attached to a breed though.
We're more looking at the phenotypes and you know, at least what we've had success with for our operation, we just don't do super well with framey cattle with
moving them every day. They just don't seem to put on the weight and the mom seemed to struggle a little bit more. Yeah. And so we, yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of the route we went, but we're, we're open to any breed.
If they look and operate the right way, we don't have any, any qualms with them.
[00:41:51] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yeah. That form and function so much more important than breed,
you know, but just as my questions on every episode we
get so wrapped up in breed. So yeah, very true. So you all have been doing this long enough. You have finished some of your own calves.
[00:42:07] McKinley
We have. Yes,
[00:42:08] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
How, how did that go? Because grass did, I assume you grass finish and grass finish can be a little tricky till you get it figured out.
[00:42:16] McKinley
it can be. Yeah. So, we do grass finish. We, at the moment, our whole herd is together. So our finishing
steers, our calves, our heifers, they're all in the same paddock. With the exception of getting a bull out when we don't want him to calve, we calve. Late spring, early summer. And so, but yeah, we we take our cattle and we're very lucky to live where we live. The Kamas Valley is. One of the, in my, it is in my opinion probably one of the best places to grass finish cattle. It's high altitude we have a lot of water for, for Utah. That's a unique thing.
We have 2 major rivers that flow through the valley that are significant to the whole region. And so, we finish our cattle around, usually it's about 28 months. Thanks. And we typically are getting, I mean, this last time we got hanging weights of around 899 pounds,
[00:43:15] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:43:16] McKinley
and they turned out fabulous. They're probably
[00:43:19] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:43:19] McKinley
at grazing. Yeah, we're grading probably choice and sometimes a little bit higher on certain things, depending on the cut and yeah, we, and we can't, we castrate late as well.
We calicrate our bulls in late, late fall. We'll be, we'll be doing that at the end of November. Probably.
So they, they get a little bit bigger, a little bit faster that way for us. And we're not really at a size right now where we can be taking, you know, You know, heifers that don't meet the our phenotype criteria but we will be probably at that point very soon.
And so, we're, we're still trying to grow the herd. Right now, from a profitability standpoint, we need to just grow the herd. But we've been doing really well with our meat. Mitch mentioned before that we, we get our. Both our poultry and our beef tested with I don't know how we got lucky in the state of Utah, but there's a guy named Stefan Van Vliet who decided to do metabolomics and nutrient density testing in meats. And he's just up the road from us.
[00:44:18] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:44:19] McKinley
And so we, we send that to them and we grade quite high. And that's something we take a lot of pride in. Our Omega 6, Omega 3 ratios are really low like 1. 2.
[00:44:29] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh,
[00:44:29] McKinley
we, and then we're averaging higher on, you know, different phytochemicals and more minerals in our, in our animals than the, than conventional you know, feedlot beef. And so, yeah, no, that's stuff that it worked. We're, we're really. We're tickled by that though. I mean, and so, but I don't know, we seem to fall into it. We kind of took, you know, Alan Williams has kind of been a mentor for us early on. And he, you know, gave us a recipe and we just followed it and it
[00:45:00] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yeah.
[00:45:02] McKinley
And
so. On the grass finishing part because I had that was something I didn't even know anyone who did that. Back in the day when my dad was in the cattle industry. And and so it's that was something we had to really lean on other experts for. And so we're kind of indebted indebted to. Other people to figure out how to do that.
Cause it is tricky. And if, and I don't think we could do it if we, you know, a lot of guys try to take them around 20 or 18 months. It just
doesn't seem to turn out the same way.
[00:45:32] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah, get a little bit of age on them.
I have one question I want to ask before we get to the overgrazing section, and I know we've already talked longer than when I usually transition, but you all started this as Acquaintances, friendship grew but three partners coming into a farm.
How, what were some things that you all did to make that successful?
[00:45:59] McKinley
Well, we first thing we did is we created the legal entity. And honestly, we could probably improve I don't know, our, probably the documents about how that functions a little bit more. But there, you know, there, it, it, it's still riding at the moment on, like, the passion and love for
each other and what we do. And so, we, you know, we, we all contributed financially equally, and, you know, we, at the time it was, you know, all equally, and we're trying to make sure that we keep that going and we're every year we have a, a long planning sessions, usually 2 days
and we go over kind of our, you know, the holistic context of each where each of us is at and make sure everything is, you know, Functioning what's not working.
And so we have to be frank with each other occasionally, which is good. Everybody needs, needs to be that way with the, with this, with an operation or with, with a ranch.
[00:47:03] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh
[00:47:04] McKinley
otherwise, you know, if you're not monitoring what's going on and you just keep going, eventually, you know, failure tends to follow you.
And so we tried to really do that. And we check in with each other pretty regularly throughout the year to make sure. You know, Mitch has been doing the poultry. I've been more on the cattle and we got to make sure that we're all doing okay. And we cover for each other if we need a break depending on what's going on.
And so if you know, it allows us to have vacations. And so our, you know, our quality of life is really important to each other
and that making sure that we spend time with our families. And if we need to do that, we can cover for them, et cetera. The problem with ranching that people forget is the quality of life is as integral as the money. Otherwise, a
[00:47:47] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yes.
[00:47:48] McKinley
wouldn't be doing it. And so, yeah, we're, we're a little bit nervous on other people's money. And even though most people say you should use other people's money to make money, we're a little cagey on that idea at the moment.
[00:48:00] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Yeah. Because anytime you get shareholders or VCs in they may be in your ear and that's going to affect your focus. So yeah, you gotta be really tread really careful there. I'm going to say that I assume that because no one has offered to invest in me on this. So, but That's my assumption. So, McKinley and Mitch, it's been great talking to you all, but we need to go ahead and transition to our overgrazing section sponsored by Redmond.
[00:48:27] Cal
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[00:49:25] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
And one thing we've talked about today was you all getting started. It's also very challenging To get started when you've got to grow your herd, your land base, and keep up with, you know, healthy grazing management. So how were you all able to accomplish that?
[00:49:44] McKinley
The thing we tend to run into, for us is we're not stocked enough. And in order to get the adequate amount of animal impact that, you know, that short duration, high intensity grazing that, that people talk about you need to be stocked correctly, in my opinion, and we are not kind of, as Mitch mentioned before, we're, you know, the cattle prices and, you know, growth and everything like that has limited us. In our own unique context from being able to bring in more cattle and a lot of people are not interested in our local area and custom grazing just because
the herd has been thinned pretty dramatically from that drought and then winters. And anyway, it's been an interesting combo that way for us. But when it comes to, yeah, I mean, we, we weren't able to overgraze this year.
In fact, our feed got way far ahead of us and I'm, I'm personally not an advocate. For, like, saying, okay, if you can't get everything, you just leave ground for stockpiled grazing during the winter. We will get anywhere between 3 and 4 feet of standing snow. So that if we don't get to our grass, that means we are actually potentially not financially viable which at the moment. We are working to do and we need that animal impact. And so when we were smaller, you know, I honestly just having spoken to Alan and he is so convicted, I've never met a more convicted and dedicated person in my life. Ever. I, it's kind of a different thing, but he drew, I spent time with him in Colorado for five days.
And he just drilled to me and a couple educators heads that if you do not get real animal impact and real animal impact is what he says, like, imagine, You know, 50, 000 bison, African bison, and they're moving and five grown adult male bison were trampled to death in that move. That's the type of animal
impact you need to get to keep. Your grass is functioning. I'm like, oh, yeah, we don't do that. Like, straight up. We don't do
that. Except for maybe in one or two places where we have a shape, a shade structure. And so, we've minimized overgrazing completely in our operation. And for us, overgrazing means returning too soon.
And so, if you graze a plant, depending on where you're at in the world, you'll have a recovery period, or it will go dormant before then, if it even recovers. And if you come in within that recovery period of the plant, then that's overgrazing. And so, it's really a function of time rather than overgrazing. I mean, it's something we try to teach people who come out to the ranch who want tours. About what we're doing. A lot of people think, well, if you could just graze the plant too low, that's overgrazing, and a lot of people think that sheep just overgraze, period.
It's like, no, that's, that's not the case, because. Historically, you had bison, pronghorn deer, elk, mule deer, whitetail deer, all following each other. And occasionally, plants were definitely overgrazed, because you probably had a herd of mule deer following a herd of three million bison at some point. Five days later, that's overgrazing,
depending on the time of the year. And so, It was getting that animal impact. We, we do ecological monitoring for different conservation groups and fascinatingly enough. A lot of these places are technically over grazing. In certain areas, but it's actually thicker and denser grass. Then the places that the cattle avoid, because it's either too dry or it's too wet, et cetera. And once they get off, it's actually a denser stand or sward of grass. And so for me. In our own operation, that's something that we can't even, we can't even achieve overgrazing because we don't have the adequate numbers. And we struggle to get animal impact over our whole piece of land that we lease at the moment. And so
[00:54:04] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
McKinley, if, if I'm understanding you clear, when, when we talk about your acreage, your grazing, you don't have enough animals to do the animal impact you would like to do. So, rather than do the animal impact on a portion and leave the other fallow or fallow for a year, you're still, you're going to it and grazing it, but you're doing it without getting that animal impact you'd like to get.
Oh
[00:54:32] McKinley
that that's pretty, that sums it up in a nutshell. We are, we, you know, we try to utilize the whole piece of ground because a lot of people start saying, well, you didn't do anything with it and you don't need it. And
so there, there's, there's a social context there in this particular value.
It's like, nothing's being done on it.
[00:54:50] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yeah.
[00:54:50] McKinley
then you don't need it. It's like, well, we, we do. There's a future there that we're
trying to achieve.
And so, and in certain areas, we are achieving that by using stock density and small paddocks in certain areas. But the problem we run into is that because we're grass finishing, the palatability of the grass.
[00:55:10] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh yeah.
[00:55:11] McKinley
Goes down dramatically and so we're a little bit nervous about our finishing ability. If we don't move fast enough. On the piece of ground, just letting the whole thing seed out or lignify over the winter.
And so, you know, we, we try to our whole goal is to utilize the ground as much as we can, because if we're not, if we're not utilizing our whole ranch in a year. You know, that's. that's. money lost to us,
especially in our context with the winter. I know some people have a, you know, they don't have winters like this and they don't want to pay for hay. And so there there's different contexts people need to consider.
But for us, if we're not utilizing the whole thing, it's truly, we're losing money, hemorrhaging it.
[00:55:59] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
And you, you bring up a really good point there. You, you've got that converse of the, the land available that you need to use or forage out there. You've got your animal impact, but the other thing is you're trying to finish some animals on grass. So they've got to have, they have a higher nutritional requirement than those over mature plants can give them.
So yeah, it's a. It's a nice balancing act on a few different points.
[00:56:24] McKinley
yes, yes. And maybe someday in the future, we might separate our finishers out from our cattle. But at the moment. We want all of our cows in 1 herd to get as much animal impact as we
[00:56:37] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yeah.
[00:56:37] McKinley
And so we'll have this year we, we, we kind of ranged right? So. We were anywhere between three quarters of an acre to four acres in each of our moves. And so, and that wasn't, we, you know, we didn't do, did do moves every day, but we found that same thing happened if we're trying to finish that the, the grass starts to lignify. And so, we, we found like, okay, we're getting incredible animal impact on half the ranch and not getting any. For the other half, and then it's winter and then we got to get them out of here.
[00:57:13] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
McKinley, it's time for us to transition to a famous four questions sponsored by Kencove Farm Fence.
[00:57:20] Cal
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[00:58:29] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
They're the same four questions we ask of all of our guests. Our first question, what's your favorite grazing grass related book or resource?
[00:58:37] McKinley
I'm pretty biased towards holistic management, a common sense and what's the full title the holistic management textbook is,
[00:58:46] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, yes.
[00:58:47] McKinley
has a good, is one of my favorites by Alan savory and Jody butter for the field
[00:58:51] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
McKinley, excellent resource there. Our second question, what's your favorite tool for the farm?
[00:58:58] McKinley
good question.
We're, we still love our conveniences. Other than the, the, the feed of the cattle which are probably my favorite tool, my, the actual tool it's in my hands that we use regularly. I really like the speedrite energizer remote
[00:59:16] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh
[00:59:16] McKinley
the fence on and off from wherever we're at because I don't like getting shocked.
I'm as
[00:59:22] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Oh, I don't
[00:59:23] McKinley
to that fence as our cattle are. And yeah, that's probably the, my favorite tool that I have in my, that I can use in my hand.
[00:59:31] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
That, that remote can be pretty handy. And I agree, McKinley, I do not want to get shocked.
If, if I'm okay with getting shocked by my fence, my fence isn't hot enough.
[00:59:40] McKinley
Here you go.
[00:59:42] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
I don't want to touch it.
[00:59:44] McKinley
Yeah. You want to be knocked on the ground by that.
Yeah.
[00:59:48] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Our third question, what would you tell someone just getting started?
[00:59:53] McKinley
Good question. Probably for me probably two things depending on their con I probably ask them some questions to understand where they're at in
life. But first thing would probably, you know, depending on if they have another job and they're just trying to ease into it, start small. But if that is not an option.
[01:00:15] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
So, McKinley , lastly, where can others find out more about you? Oh
[01:00:21] McKinley
They can find us. You can find us on Instagram. We try to be present on Instagram. We do put things up. Don't get me wrong, but it's. So, social media is a weird thing. You can find us on Instagram at 3SpringsUtah. You can also visit our website at 3SpringsUtah. com. We do send out newsletters. We're trying to become more consistent and actually have something worth reading there. We also put out our what we have available. We are really a regional food supplier. We don't really operate outside of the state of Utah. Which I know is a bummer for some people. We apologize. It just doesn't fit into our quality of life right now
of wanting to package and deal with all that stuff.
And so, but if you want some fun and silly Instagram. It's probably the best way to do it.
[01:01:14] cal_2_10-30-2024_100650
Really appreciate you coming on and sharing today. Enjoyed the conversation.
[01:01:19] McKinley
Thanks, Cal.
[01:01:20] Cal
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