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The Disability And…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
INTRO
Welcome to the Disability And… podcast, bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate. This month, Mind The Gap’s Associate Producer Paul Wilshaw chats with student actor Toby Ross and lecturer in dance Karen Bartholomew about the Mind The Gap’s Performance Academy accredited course.
PAUL WILSHAW
Hello and welcome to Disability And… podcast. Today it's my privilege to introduce you to Toby Ross, who is a member of the Performance Academy at Mind The Gap and Karen Bartholomew, who is the Associate Artist in dance and engagement.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Hello.
TOBY ROSS
Hello.
PAUL WILSHAW
Hi. So, Toby, thank you very much also for being here. So you're part of the Performance Academy?
TOBY ROSS
Yes, I am yeah.
PAUL WILSHAW
So what made you want to join the Performance Academy?
TOBY ROSS
I'd been with the company in total for eight years. So the company knew who I was, which helped, and also, I've done two courses, previous to, while still being part of Mind The Gap, which also helped as well the year after. And then the One Day music.
PAUL WILSHAW
I should of mentioned that the Performance Academy is part of Mind The Gap as a whole company. And it's been a journey of three years that Mind The Gap’s been on. Because, the course has been accredited by York St John's University. We’ve done an interview with Melissa Conyers and Matthew Reason a year and a half ago, so this is actually following on from that podcast.
This is a question for you Karen. When Mind The Gap decided to get the academy accredited, what was your first opinions about that? And did you have any hopes or fears about it?
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
I was really excited by the prospect of running a level four course accredited by York St John. I think the most exciting thing for me was the potential it had to make our training even better and raise the profile of what Mind The Gap does and raise the profile of the talent that we have in the building, because the course is unlike anything else really, that, currently exists. And because it's so new and so different, I was really hopeful that it would just help us reach more people. I don't think I had any fears, maybe some apprehensions about the additional responsibility that accrediting a course might bring. And there is, there's a lot of assessment criteria, paperwork, reports to write and things like that. And in my role, I don't have to do all of that paperwork. Melissa Conyers does a lot of the hard work around that. The Performance Academy course that we ran previously was still very thorough and still really well planned and evaluated and assessed in a different way. But I think there's something about like the mindset of something being connected to a university standard or level, that was quite like, oh, is this going to be a lot more hard work? And how many extra layers on top of all the great work that we already do is it going to add? Well, it's been really straightforward because I think we worked really well as a team to make that as streamlined as possible. And I think as well, like just personally as an artistic person, a creative person, a bit of self-doubt about doing my students justice because it was official, you know, again, that university mindset of, oh, can I do this?
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you were my tutor. So when I was part of the Performance Academy, so seeing exactly what happened from when I was a student to what we're doing now with our Performance Academy students, it's a real change. And you can actually feel the change in the company I feel.
Toby, I want you to find out from you. Can you tell me about the audition process and finding out that you got in?
TOBY ROSS
Well, it was kind of, sort of, a mixture of, well, two things really. One, because of course, it was during Covid. So we had to send in self-tapes, and then the, well, there was three self-tapes, both for theatre, dance and music. So it was kind of a lot of backwards and forwards, as it was at the time for most people, and then, we also did like in-person auditions and then after that, I just found out that, I got on the course because, of course, I was really pleased that I was on the course because it was one of the first of its kind, for Mind The Gap to ever do so, you know, it's quite, I kind of saw it as quite an achievement, really.
PAUL WILSHAW
Well, yeah, definitely. And I actually didn't realize about that it was during the pandemic as well.
TOBY ROSS
Yeah, it was.
PAUL WILSHAW
It was pretty radical actually in that sense, thinking about it.
TOBY ROSS
Particularly the backwards and forwards of the self-tapes and also, so, yeah, that was
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
I think we learned a lot from that, though, if I can just chip in because we're just recruiting for our next cohort, for students to start in September this year. And we found the self-tapes really useful when we recruited your group, Toby. So we, definitely we knew we wanted to do that again, because we realized how important it was to just get a bit more insight into people, especially new people that we'd not met before, get to see them share their skills with us in a way, maybe that they're more comfortable at home, or had more time and more space and wasn't in a more of the pressurized audition environment, which we still did this time but I think it was really helpful to be able to see people in both those contexts.
PAUL WILSHAW
No, definitely. And Toby actually, just going on from that, how did you actually find doing a self-tape? Like what was it for you?
TOBY ROSS
It was quite easy because Melissa Conyers, had kind of sent through all the information. And so I was kind of sending all the videos and stuff to her. So it was kind of, quite easy and, and fun and, and there was, as you were saying Karen, it was kind of something very natural about kind of doing in your own house as well, instead of, doing it at Mind The Gap, so you had that freedom to kind of chop and change things and stuff. And then with the in-person auditions, we then, came here to do the in-person auditions and then it was after that that I then found out that I was on the course, and it was kind of quite a special moment.
PAUL WILSHAW
That's great and it sounds very accessible as well, which I think is a really important thing for everyone around access.
Karen, as a tutor on the ground, what have you learned about working with York St John's?
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Really practically, we've been over a couple of times, haven't we Toby, to look around the space, to watch other students’ performances, to perform as part of, the dance and theatre modules dance trial last year, or the year before. So just getting more involved with what happens on campus was really interesting and exciting.
I think most of my learning has been about how you take that level four qualification. So I'm sure Melissa and Matthew talked about this, but the level four qualification is basically the equivalent of the first year of an undergraduate degree, but we do it over three years. I've done a lot of learning about how to take something that's very kind of, formal and standardized and really make it accessible and teach those skills in a way that allows people to do their best. And I think also like, the flip side is that we want York St John to learn from that, and that's part of the reason why we were really keen to build this partnership with them, because we wanted the way we work to have impact on them too.
So things like our grades, we don't have a pass and a fail. We have improving, achieving and excelling. That just allows us to like, make that learning, those assessment results a bit clearer for a student. So if a student gets improving, it's not saying, ‘oh, you failed’, which feels quite a negative term. It's about ‘you've done some work, you’re just not quite there yet’. Achieving is yeah, solid, you’re working and you’re doing really well, and excelling is just acknowledging that extra, extra mile that people, we talk about the extra mile quite a lot don’t we Toby, the extra mile that people maybe go to or just add in. Well, in dance we talk about like achieving is a donut, and excelling is a donut, you know one of those fancy ones with like Oreo biscuits on the top?
TOBY ROSS
With jam in!
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Yeah. So just that, and also taking the assessment criteria forms and the module specifications, which traditionally at uni are presented in a very formal way. White pieces of paper with charts and words and numbers. And, you know, I have a degree myself and I'm intimidated by those documents, and I've read similar documents before, when I was at uni. So we've tried to find ways of presenting that information in a more accessible way to our students, but also would like that to impact on York St John as well, because it's not impossible that there would be a student at uni that would benefit from information in a more presented and more accessible way.
I read a blog by Stop Gap recently, and they were talking about how, making something really good and really inclusive is only going to be beneficial for everybody. By making something really inclusive, you not omitting anybody you’re including everybody. And whether that's like an inclusive class or an inclusive piece of information, I think that just hit the nail on the head for me. Just if you can make something inclusive to everybody, then it's just like to one person specifically, everybody is going to benefit.
PAUL WILSHAW
No, I totally agree with you on that.
Toby, I want to know for you, what has been your favourite memory of being on the course?
TOBY ROSS
I think just, kind of meeting everyone. And as you were saying before, we have been, over to York quite a few times as well, and just having that opportunity, a very rare opportunity, which not many people get to for it to be with, York St John as well, and just meeting everybody on the course because, I have a couple of friends who are at university themselves, and they say, you know, just how hard, university is and how hard university work is, but just to have the opportunity to kind of like, do a similar qualification that isn't, as demanding, as high level as a university degree has been really good. And just to have that kind of, special opportunity to do the qualification has been really good.
PAUL WILSHAW
Karen, as a teacher, why do you think it's important that the course has been accredited by York St John's?
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
I think it's been really valuable because we were already running a version of the Performance Academy before it was accredited, and I'm biased and big headed, but I think we were already doing a pretty decent job.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yep, I totally agree.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Thanks.
TOBY ROSS
A very good job.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Well, you know, I mean, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And so we've had students who've progressed from the previous Performance Academy course into the group of artists and been in our touring work, such as our co-production with Geko, ‘A Little Space’ or in ‘Birdie’ now, that's touring. We know it works. We know that the Performance Academy can be a really great route for somebody into the artist program, but I think what the level four qualification just, at the York St John accreditation does is add some recognition for that standard of work that's happening. And I feel like hopefully it challenges people's assumptions of what people with learning disabilities and autism can achieve. The arts doesn't have to just be participatory and fun and social and, while that's really important, there's a breadth and massive amount of people who aren't beginners. Yeah, they’re training, they're experts or they're becoming experts in their art, and they can learn, they can achieve, they can graduate from a course, they can perform in an international touring work like, hopefully, just the accreditation is going to just challenge, find ways of challenging what people assume.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah, definitely. And I totally think that will, well I hope it will
TOBY ROSS
And I think it's great as well, you know all the tours and stuff. It really is getting learning disabled artists out there, like the ‘Birdie’ tour and the other tours that the company have done is really kind of, getting the company out there, which, I think is needed.
And particularly as we go into the city of culture year next year, I'm sure Mind The Gap will have a huge role in, it's really important that we, you know, get it out there as much as possible that learning disabled artists can in fact, act.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
One of the other things is, because there's a lot of talk in general, about it being a three year course and how people progress and what happens after. And it's not, you know, it's very much part of the course. So the students have a module called Industry Studies, which is about learning about the wider world of the arts and creating a CV and, and an access rider and all those different things that, help provide and open up progression routes, so it's not three years, goodbye. If you're not becoming an artist, that's it. It's three years with support and guidance into what's next. And, yeah, it's an ongoing relationship.
TOBY ROSS
And to add to that point, I think it's great because for so long, you know, never would Mind The Gap say as a company that's it. Three years, bye bye, slam the door. They support and help their students, which I think is what a good company does, particularly when outside people come in.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah. And I think it's really important though, also to state that as much as what we love of having everyone here, we also need companies to actually hire our actors and hire them, so that we can bring in new cohorts of actors and performers up, to make sure that we're getting these standards up even more. So it's great, but we are not a one-stop shop. We can't be everything for everyone. We really want to work with companies to make sure that our actors and our performers are really progressing in this industry, and not only in front of our stages, but also backstage. And that's also where Industry Studies come into play. It's also that we teach the students about backstage work, as well as front stage.
TOBY ROSS
And James Moore and Jack Carroll are doing a very good job. And I think it's good that Liam Bairstow, you know, has got that platform and able to hold onto that platform.
PAUL WILSHAW
So, Toby, have you struggled with anything, whilst on the course and how have Mind The Gap and you found solutions to it?
TOBY ROSS
I used to and, you know, not enjoy dance or not be confident with it. I never used to, at school, I never used to do it because I was never ever confident with it. But Karen has helped me to enjoy dance a lot more.
PAUL WILSHAW
And how has Karen done that? What processes have been put into place to make sure that you are enjoying that?
TOBY ROSS
With my coordination, she's helped me a lot. Just to get a lot more enjoyment out of the idea of doing dance. So then from that, I then became more confident.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Yeah, we have, so our dance module is on a Wednesday, so we start every Wednesday with an hour and a half technique class warm up. But how we approach technique here is it's not maybe what people might assume traditional technique of, you know, the most flexibility or the most perfect precision in your movement. Whilst, yeah, that's really interesting and valuable part of training, where we start from is people's own perception of their own body and how their own body moves in space, and becoming more confident with having ownership over their own way of moving. So it's never about everybody looking the same and doing a movement in the same way. It's about everybody's interpretation of how movement feels. So I think, yeah, I think, Toby, you've developed your skills massively, across all art forms, as you said earlier Paul, but I think within dance, I think you've definitely been really persistent and challenged yourself.
TOBY ROSS
Yeah. And I feel a lot more confident in dance and it's nice to see that not just Karen, but all the tutors appreciate the hard work that I've put in over the time I've been with the company.
PAUL WILSHAW
I'd be very honest with you Toby; dance was not my favourite either. But Karen also had a real good way of teaching me and a fellow podcaster that’s been doing this podcast, Dan Foulds, that him and me were probably Karen’s hardest pupils in dance
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Well, no, you know what, no because I think what is really important to acknowledge is that we never, especially on the Performance Academy course, because it's three different art forms to find students that are really experienced in music, theatre and dance is very unusual because normally someone's focused on one specific art form. So all we ask is that, if you're stronger in theatre or stronger in music and not as strong or experienced in one, it doesn't matter as long as you're going to commit to it and you're going to give it a go. So that's the conversations I've had a lot with you and Dan about. It's fine if you don't feel the most, you don't feel like it's your strongest art form. You come in the room, and you put the effort in, and you find ways together, we find ways together to do it. So I think it's a really important point.
PAUL WILSHAW
That's great.
Karen, how would you like to see the course progress in the future?
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
So the course that Toby's on now is the first version of the York St John accredited course that we've run. Even though we're in the third year, it still feels very new. And the module, there’s new modules every year. We've worked with like a consistent group of students. We haven't yet gone through the entire range of modules that the course offers. So I think we're learning a lot as we go. I'm definitely excited to see how it affects the pathways within Mind The Gap. So the dream is that people do the Performance Academy course and either become one of our artists or we support them to do further training somewhere else, or go into the big wide world of employment and in the arts. It might take a few cycles of the three year course to really see that journey, that pathway becoming clear.
One thing that we’ve really enjoyed is collaborating with outside companies as part of the course to help our students with their learning. So we did some training with Gecko, which was brilliant, and we have had discussions with them about making that a regular, like a yearly, not necessarily yearly, but every first, every first year or second year, Gekko coming back in. So just establishing some relationships, stronger relationships with some of those external companies that can really inspire and engage the students that we're working with.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah, definitely. I think we mentioned Gecko on a previous podcast about ‘A Little Space’. Working with companies like Gecko, who are a brilliant company, and I really admire their work, it's great. And I think it really helps the students as well. And you could see that actually, whenever they're doing an end of year showcase of how, I think, what I can see in those works with the other organizations actually helps.
In that case, And I've just mentioned about the showcase, so I want to go to this question Toby to you, each year we do do an end of year showcase.
TOBY ROSS
Yeah we do, yeah
PAUL WILSHAW
In your opinion, what makes that special?
TOBY ROSS
I think just the, everyone kind of coming together and just the amount of work that we put in, it gives you, an idea of, like, what working in the acting industry is like. And it kind of, it reminds me, because often, you know, just how much I kind of enjoy acting.
I'll give you one example: last night, I was, at ‘Wicked’, you know, seeing ‘Wicked the Musical’. And I was kind of sat there thinking, oh, this is great you know, it kind of reminds me just how much, you know, I want to go into the creative industries and be an actor. Because, you know how sometimes you see people, because obviously, we're all told how difficult it is to become an actor and stuff, but it kind of, seeing shows, like ‘Wicked’ and being here at Mind The Gap reminds me why I want to be an actor so much.
PAUL WILSHAW
I think that’s so important as well. You mentioning shows that you're like, seeing it on big stage and stuff like that. I mean, talking about the Academy showcase last year, you were at York St John’s doing it at their building. And this year, we're at Leeds Playhouse working at their building. I can't wait to see the Academy showcase this year, because if you do anything like you did last year, I mean, it's going to be amazing.
I can't, I was so impressed last year, and I know you guys, and if you've had another year, I’m going to be blown away. And I think any audience members that come to that showcase will be definitely blown away.
I want to know, what one piece of advice Toby, have you been given, that you will take away with you after you've been on the course, from any member of the team or fellow performers?
TOBY ROSS
I was given this as part of a Christmas/birthday present. It said on it, by one of the fellow students ‘life is like a cup of tea. It depends on how you make it.’ Which, given I've got a cup of tea in front of me at the moment, I feel as though that's, that's even more relevant, because kind of it depends on how much, you know, you put into it. You know, you only put in what you get out, you know. If you do put in all the work and all the effort, as I say, you know, I've been with the company for eight years, so, you know, that's quite a long time. It just kind of shows you what you then get out of it, I think.
PAUL WILSHAW
No, I totally agree with you. I think, I love that quote.
TOBY ROSS
I've still got it actually at home, I often I have to think about it: Life is like a cup of tea. It depends on how you make it.
PAUL WILSHAW
I think that’s beautiful. I mean, it reminds me of ‘life is like a box of chocolates’. I’m more of a chocolate guy than a tea guy but, you know.
TOBY ROSS
In keeping with the tea theme.
PAUL WILSHAW
Okay, my next question is to you Karen, what has been your favourite memory teaching on the course?
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Similar to what Toby said just a couple of minutes ago actually, the last year's end of year showcase at York St John felt really special. The showcase the year before was here, so it was a space everybody felt very comfortable and confident with, but York St John, we went, and the first time we properly were in the theatre, was the day before. It was the challenge of being in a new venue, it was boiling hot I seem to remember, everyone's nodding, and just seeing how the students rose to that challenge and everyone approached it in a different way, and everybody found it very different. But the feedback that the students got after the showcase was incredible. And just really validating to see that the audience could see all the hard work that they’d put in. And we still have the feedback up on the wall in Studio Three, and I like to read it like every so often while I'm, like, rolling around the studio, I'll go and have a little look because like, some of the stuff that's written is really special. And just like having an end of year showcase to work towards is so important because it gives everybody some perspective, and a deadline is always quite helpful, isn't it? You got, you got to make something, and you've got to do something. So yeah, as you mentioned, our showcase this year is at Leeds Playhouse.
PAUL WILSHAW
I think also it's a big up to you as teachers and everything as well, because you give the artist, you give the Performance Academy all your time and effort. I think a lot of the time that that’s the stuff, people behind the scenes don't recognize how much the students and the performance and, other staff members really do appreciate the work that you guys do. I really do think that’s important to mention.
My question to you Toby is, as an artist, why do you think it is important that the course has been accredited by York St John's?
TOBY ROSS
I think, because as I was saying before, the reason why it's so good that it's been linked up with, York St John's University because it gives you kind of something to aim for. Very rarely, do you get kind of courses that are linked up with universities and it's such, a special link up where you kind of go, ‘ah right. This is great. It's with a university. I may not be going there, or I might decide not to go there, but at least if I go to somebody and say, oh, I've done a course with York St John's University, they'll say, have you?’ That's, you know, that sounds great. Like, they’re going to want you more I suppose, if you say it's with York St John's University. So I think because it's with a university, it gives you something to go for and aim for, which is often not the case with courses.
PAUL WILSHAW
No, definitely. And, yeah, it's your last year. So my question is, what advice would you give to the new people that would be starting on the course?
TOBY ROSS
I think, to kind of, again, to refer back to what I was saying before, you know, life is very much like a cup of tea, it depends on how you make it. You know, just put the work in, and you’ll get the work out. And that's what I've seen, particularly while I've been on this course and with Mind The Gap over the last eight years.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah. And from me personally Toby, seeing you, during all your processes and your work at the company, I have seen you progress.
Karen, what opportunities would you like to see open to this cohort of artists after being on the course?
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Yeah, I'm hoping that the fact that the, all the kind of press and promotion around the course has raised the profile of Mind The Gap in general. And I would I'd really love for that impact to be felt by other organizations. So there's some recognition from the wider arts world about realizing the value and the talent that exists within the world of learning disability arts, and just recognizing that it's not just one thing like people, with learning disabilities and/or autism can be and are, incredible performers and have so much to offer and companies that haven't maybe worked with people with learning disabilities and/or autism before can see like the standard of training that we're producing and the standard of artists that are coming out of the company and hopefully having an impact outside of us really. Yeah, just hopefully influencing other companies to be, challenge themselves to be more diverse and more open minded to like, the benefit and the value in difference and diversity.
PAUL WILSHAW
I totally agree. I think we've got to help companies stop being scared of hiring disabled performers, learning disabled, physically disabled, people who are visually impaired. And I think we've just got to stop that fear and actually help, and I think if you want to come and chat to Mind The Gap we’re always open to have chats. And I know so many learning disabled companies are also we're willing to have conversations around this.
TOBY ROSS
I think as well, if you look at James Moore in Emmerdale, and you know, because, for ages I thought I was going to be in Emmerdale.
PAUL WILSHAW
Well, why not? That's the whole point.
TOBY ROSS
I was, I was telling everybody I was going to be on Emmerdale
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Manifest it Toby
PAUL WILSHAW
And why not? Why not?
TOBY ROSS
Indeed, why not? So if, when you look at people like James Moore in Emmerdale and, do you know Jack Carroll?
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah Jack Carroll is in Coronation Street now.
TOBY ROSS
Formerly on Britain's Got Talent and also Liam Bairstow in Coronation Street. So I kind of like, I feel that's kind of sort of raised the bar in terms of just like, getting people out there and stuff.
PAUL WILSHAW
I totally agree. And actually, that comes to my last question to you Toby. What would you like to do next in your career? Because I already know you're a radio DJ.
TOBY ROSS
This podcast is easy for me Paul.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah. No, please tell the people who to listen to you on radio.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
So modest Toby.
TOBY ROSS
Drystone Radio 102 – 103.5 FM.
PAUL WILSAHW
Cool. Okay and what would you like to do next in your career?
TOBY ROSS
I think I would, I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and speaking about it with various people, and people within the company, and people who used to be connected to the company. I think, kind of, sort of stay within the company in some way, because particularly with Bradford City of Culture coming up next year and I’m sure Mind The Gap have, you know, a big role in that. And to do kind of, sort of more TV work and like more Emmerdale stuff. I think because it's great when you become inspired by other people, and I definitely do feel as though the artists have inspired me a lot.
PAUL WILSHAW
That’d be great. So I really want to say a big thank you to you, Toby, and to you Karen
TOBY ROSS
Thank you so much.
PAUL WILSHAW
Please listen in to next month's podcast with Disability Arts Online, and I hope you all take care and stay safe and thank you for listening.
TOBY ROSS
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Paul.
KAREN BARTHOLOMEW
Thanks, Paul.
OUTRO
Thank you for listening. We do hope you've enjoyed this episode of Disability And… Further episodes of Disability And… can be found through the Disability Arts Online website at www.disabilityarts.online
Please join us next month when Colin Hambrook chats with a spoken word artist Ellen Renton about archive stories. A research project investigating a National Paralympic Heritage Archive.