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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep27
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[00:00:00]
Introduction
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Liz Herl: Welcome back everyone to Anchored in Chaos podcast.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Thanks, Liz. I'm here with Dr. Caldwell.
Tim Caldwell: Yep. It's me again.
Liz Herl: Yes. So we're doing things a couple ways, a little different. Probably wouldn't make any effect anyone that doesn't watch us on YouTube, but we just went to audio only for a little
Tim Caldwell: bit.
Yeah. This will be our first attempt at nothing but audio.
Liz Herl: Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Just to see how we, just see how this plays out for a little while. See [00:01:00] if people are dying to see us or just more interested to hear us. Right? Yeah, exactly.
Liz Herl: And most of our listeners I think just listened to through your own platform.
Yeah. That you, so anyways, so a little bit about that.
The Importance of Getting Out of Our Own Heads
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Liz Herl: But today I got a really good topic. It's kind of been on my mind. I've been utilizing it throughout the week.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Getting out of our own heads. Yeah. Is kind of what I'm thinking. I just have noticed in both my professional and personal life that we concentrate entirely too much on ourselves.
And actually Dr. Peterson, I know I always refer back to him, has mentioned like, it really drives us to a state of discontent to be so concerned with yourself. Absolutely. All the time. Couldn't every more, and your level of happiness or outcome, output, whatever it might be. So anyhow, I wanna talk a little bit why we do that.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: How unhelpful it is that we do that, and what can we do about it.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm. Yep. I like it. we talk about topics like this all the time. I'm glad we brought this forward because [00:02:00] I see both professionally and socially, family members and loved ones, everyone has their own problems.
Mm-hmm. And if you're listening and paying attention to what's being said, a lot of people are really trapped in their own heads. Right. And as a professional coach, those are just some of the things that I do battle with too, just like you do in your industry mm-hmm. Is to try to you need to step outta you and concentrate on the world around you, and things will begin to unfold.
Understanding Self-Focused Attention
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Liz Herl: So, there is a terminology and psychology that is called self-focused attention. Mm-hmm. And it is when the mind keeps pointing inward and scanning for your own flaws and comparing yourself to others and magnifying these misunderstandings or missteps in your life at an. Very, very large level.
And we tend to all do this because we want to be a part of something or we want something to go really well and it doesn't go according, which is one of our biggest mishaps [00:03:00] is no matter how much, you know, best made plans don't go, then it's like, where do we go? We generally go inward. However, I know we're, if we look at social media, there's a tendency to be blaming others for other circumstances.
Mm-hmm. But generally that's because of a, a maybe, perhaps an inward part of you that is not being acknowledged or you're just unhappy. You're just an unhappy person.
Tim Caldwell: Sure. I'm frequently telling people that, telling people your own problems. Most people are glad you got those problems.
They're glad it's you and not them. Mm-hmm. And some people, it's just a voyeuristic thing. They want to hear you and leaving. Get the one ups, the one ups man competitive. Pity Olympics, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm having such a bad time because of this and this and this, and then it's, I understand how it seems that we blame everybody except ourselves.
And truthfully, we're being really unfair to ourselves too.
Liz Herl: Right? [00:04:00] 100%. One of the things that I work substantially on and that is self-reflection.
Self-Reflection vs. Self-Focused Attention
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Liz Herl: So I think it's important to understand the difference between self-focused attention and self-reflection. So when we're talking about self-reflection, I'm looking at an experience or a situation I had.
Where do I think things went well? Where do I feel things were problematic and how would that have looked different? Now I'm not berating and putting down myself
Tim Caldwell: mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Or blaming the other parties of the interaction. I'm literally in a. Critical thinking mode of a logic, reasonable setting of, okay, this may not feel really well.
So I went in, we'll perhaps say I went into a job interview and I think it went really well, but here's where I felt like I could have done better.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And I really think the supervisor was, pretty interested in me. I know that I have my own insecurities of did I talk too fast? Did I, not talk enough?
And I'm just giving an example now. Versus saying after I leave an [00:05:00] interview, oh, I bombed that. Well, you know, you were supposed to say that. You never said that. And this internal dialogue of like ridicule and criticism that we kind of drowned ourselves in. And so when someone calls you, Hey, how'd the interview go?
It was terrible. It was awful. And they're never calling me back and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like pump the brakes.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: But we tend to kind of gravitate towards, catastrophizing our life when we actually don't have a really good, healthy perspective of self.
Tim Caldwell: Sure, sure.
Liz Herl: And I think that's kind of where I'm going in all this is we have to stop thinking about ourselves so much.
However, we have to heal ourselves so we know why we're not thinking about ourselves so much. Yeah. And I know that sounds kind of redundant
Tim Caldwell: and to give the advice, even as a coach too, I can't do this and I can't do that and you're internalizing all this stuff. I would also say. You are doing that, but you're also doing it with such a heavy hand, goodness gracious.
Mm-hmm. Give yourself some grace, as you say, Uhhuh Absolutely. Is are you really that bad? Are you really that stupid? You're not, you're, you do [00:06:00] what everybody does and you know, as well as I do, you can have conversations or arguments maybe some quick witted jabs at one another, and then afterwards you go, oh, I should have said this.
They're starting shoulda said this. Oh, okay. So, okay. They're said. This is the perfect, okay.
Liz Herl: I apologize. I didn't mean to That's talk over there, but it just, you know, it puffs in your head. So of course I refer to about every different show and I can always make it therapeutic related.
Humor and Self-Deprecation
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Liz Herl: But there is the perfect example of this in Seinfeld where oh my goodness.
What's his name? It's on the, to, I was just watching this show the other day. What's, what, which
Tim Caldwell: character?
Liz Herl: Not Seinfeld. What's his friend's name? His vessel. Kramer. Not Kramer. George. George. Thank you. Cool. Costanza. So, oh, Costanza. Yeah. Yes. So it's where he's in a business meeting. This is a perfect example.
He's in a business meeting and they're all eating and he's eating quite aggressively. Okay. I'll just put it that way. Yeah. Like he is eating a little aggressively and somebody makes a smart comment and he is humiliated and it's unfortunate. Well, he's [00:07:00] on his way home and he hits the steering wheel.
Like that's what I should have said. And then he is like waiting for his opportunity to go back to work. Right. To set up the circumstances. He's sitting on
Tim Caldwell: this line Yes. Hoping to use it. He's
Liz Herl: ready for it to go back in and go and recorrect or correct the situation. Yeah. And he's literally waiting for it.
'cause so he sets up the whole situation to go back in and then it falls apart and doesn't go to fine. But you know
Tim Caldwell: what that is nothing more than a grand attempt. At each time of one up, up midship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is also when some people are speaking and let's say it turns into it's heated or more confrontational, a lot of times I can't, I'm not really hearing what they're saying.
Correct. 'cause I am setting up my response. Mm-hmm. I've got this, this rehearsed thing. I can't wait to unload this. And, you know, it could go, it could go seconds, it could go minutes, it could go days waiting for, for that to happen. Sometimes it never happens and
Liz Herl: sometimes it never happens. Yeah. Well, so kind of going into like this [00:08:00] vicious cycle we unintentionally put ourselves in, in, as we were talking about that that scene in Seinfeld, it's generally out of something that transpires as kind of harmless.
Whatever the situation or dynamic that we're in, maybe it's a joke that doesn't land well.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And you're, getting a little bit, and now you're in your head about like, okay. So I immediately feel like everyone's thinking, I kind of look like a clown, but not the funny kind. Yeah. And then what do we do to get outta that moment?
Generally we deflect by everyone uses humor to deflect. Yeah. From discomfort.
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely.
Liz Herl: And, well, there's a large portion, I shouldn't say everyone, but used
Tim Caldwell: correctly. It's great.
Liz Herl: Right, right. And when you have the ability to have that I guess to deliver humor, I always say know your audience. I'm a huge
Tim Caldwell: proponent of that.
Yeah.
Liz Herl: And because it would remove some of this discomfort, like, oh, I landed this joke here. Well, I often do this with couples. So when a husband wants to tell a wife a joke, and she's like, that's not funny, but he's like, [00:09:00] my buddies loved it. And I'm like, yeah, let's kind of reflect on like what you,
Tim Caldwell: well this is the setting kind of thing.
This is the argument of what level of humor is, is it slapstick Stooges? Mm-hmm. Or is it Seinfeld? Mm-hmm. You know, is it something Steven Wright? Is it where you have to kind of think and it hits you five minutes later. Mm-hmm. Everybody has their own level of what they think is funny and funny is funny.
It's like beauty. Mm-hmm. It's just funny. And it may not make sense to any, anybody else, but, but
Liz Herl: when you're purposely trying to invoke a response
Tim Caldwell: Yes. And there are those I have someone very close to me in my family, and he tells the corniest jokes, but he's got the biggest heart in the world, so, it's, it's okay.
What I was gonna say about using humor to diffuse things, especially self-deprecation. Yes. Is it, it's totally appropriate and it's. It's can be interpreted and received on all levels, but you need to have some security in yourself to do that. You, and you don't want to keep doing it. Right. Okay.
Liz Herl: So you're just [00:10:00] I am have, I'm so sorry, Dr.
Cal. Well, you have me all over the place because now I'm gonna tell the listeners, here's another example of exactly what you just described. So I'm gonna switch on over to the office real quick. So join me over here. And so there's a moment in one of these episodes of the office. In that is Michael Scott falls into a what, what kind of Pohto or a, A pond.
A koi pond. There it is. Pond. I was like, I know there's a gun pond. But anyways, a koi pond. And he's really humiliated because he was at, was at a business meeting and fell into the koi pond. Well, Jim is trying to help. Everyone's like, why is he all wet? Like, why is he in a different suit? What happened?
He kind of said, fine. I fell into a COI pond. Of course, he, his staff is laughing at him and Jim tries to tell him like, well kind of make light of it. And this is his idea of making light of it is he's like, you know, everybody makes mistakes. Like, and so at first it's going really well. Like he's kind of leaning into his humanity a little bit and then it [00:11:00] goes very dark and he's just like, my mother always said that I wasn't gonna have any friends or, you know, no one ever called, I mean, it just kind of spirals into this ver Yeah.
This terrible
Tim Caldwell: trauma exposure thing and
Liz Herl: everyone's kind. And then he yells too much. Too much. Yeah. He yells out too far. Thanks a lot, Jim. Yeah. And I'm like watching it like, oh my goodness, this is, but these are the why it's so relatable and I like these shows is because it's very human. Yeah.
Right. It's all the things that we do as funny as they are. They happen, we, we think about these things. Maybe they don't always play out, but so we have to be careful with humor. Mm-hmm. But more going back to the vicious cycle that we get into kind of perfect example yet again using the office episode, you don't think anything is harmless when you're starting off in kind of poking at a little bit.
And then maybe you unlock something or unzip something on accident. Yeah. And you're like exposing all of yourself. Sure. And then you're very fearful of what must people think. Well,
Tim Caldwell: The kickback [00:12:00] of that is that if in your self-deprecating attempt you exposed something really sensitive, like, oh man, it's so embarrassing.
I feel like killing myself. And then I was like, oh my gosh, somebody in the room's brother committed suicide or self harming and that, and then the whole room goes, ugh. And yeah. That has happened. Not to me. I, I've seen situations where people, well see,
Liz Herl: I, that's when people don't really know. I know that humor is not appropriate in that fashion.
Tim Caldwell: Know, but you know what, even if you're really skilled at it, you can fall on your face sometimes and can you recover? Well again, you can't be stewing on, oh man, I blew it. I blew it. I blew it. You need to try to get back in the game. Find, find your footing somehow.
Public Speaking and Handling Embarrassment
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Liz Herl: So I'm gonna ask you Yeah. But first I'm gonna reveal. Yeah. So back in my social work days but prior, before going back to grad school, I worked for a social service agency. And we always had these, like Friday round table meetings. Mm-hmm. And one time we were going and it was always over. That's when I learned the [00:13:00] endeavors of, budgeting and grant writing and all those, and the nature of that business. And we were getting yet again, more cuts where people would potentially lose jobs. And she was revealing this information in the meeting. And it was just really daunting. Like, I felt really uncomfortable in the meeting. Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, okay, this is really sad, but like I, everyone's energy was heavy and I was just like, okay, kind of change gears, let's like, you know, make a joke and I'm trying to like, carry the weight of the room on my shoulder a little bit. Yeah. And she's like, you know, I don't think I will.
And I felt like I wanted to be the size of an ant.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Because I felt so embarrassed. In my mind, the discomfort I was experiencing in the moment
Tim Caldwell: could be felt.
Liz Herl: Yes, yes. But I mean, prior to me making the statement, we, I had outlined some things that were gonna transpire and I'm like, well, maybe we can shift over and you can make a joke or something.
Like, I'm trying to change it because of my level of discomfort. And [00:14:00] she's very directly was like, you know, I don't think I will. And then I was like, oh, okay. It, yeah. Well,
Tim Caldwell: whether was her, but this cycle
Liz Herl: I'm talking about is everything. I tried to land something, it didn't land. I felt so humiliated. I felt the redness all, you know, the warmth I felt I wanted to shrink away.
I was very embarrassed. And how do I, all I could think about was like, I, how do you avoid this in the future? Well, the young, I would say 28-year-old Liz would say, don't say anything. Again, when you're in a situation, just keep your mouth closed. Stop
Tim Caldwell: digging a hole.
Liz Herl: Right. But in reality, no. Just, you are well intended.
But of course now as a psychotherapist, I see this all differently. Mm-hmm. I look back at my younger self, I'm like, ah, I see what was happening there.
The Vicious Cycle of Negative Self-Talk
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Liz Herl: And, but being able to understand that this happens to all of us, like that's where I was gonna say, I'm sharing, kind of revealing a moment, and I'm not saying you've had any of these moments.
I'm sure everything in your life has been Bill of tons
Tim Caldwell: of these moments. Tons of them. [00:15:00] Because I've spoken plenty of times in public, both lay and professional lectures. One in Kansas City where I was part of a Deus and I was the last speaker, and I knew that as the last speaker being invited.
History has taught me, if you're the last speaker, you're either gonna be speaking to an empty room or you're gonna be speaking to a bunch of people who don't give a crap. They just want to eat right. They just wanna get out. No, fair enough. It's been a long day or what, just so you know,
Liz Herl: as a participant in those conferences, I very much so that, well, I bought a new
Tim Caldwell: suit for this uh, little adventure.
I told you this. Yes, I'll be great. I bought a new suit for this little adventure and I'm comfortable speaking in front of people. I'm typically a wanderer. I don't stand behind the podium or the Deus sits up there and I'm walking around and I happen to come back to the Deus and I'm about a third of the way through my presentation.
And I happened to put my elbows up on the uh, podium surface. And I noticed that the label for my suit. It's still on my forearm and it's visible. And believe me, I've been walking around the whole time, [00:16:00] so I know the entire, yeah, the entire type. So how I diffused that was I literally just in front of everybody, I tore that off and I go, oh, there's that last label.
And I tore it off and I got a chuckle, and I kept going. But it was, it was very embarrassing. Right. I can imagine. It's incredibly embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. Yes. It's a brand new suit. Mm-hmm. And here's the label to the suit. Mm-hmm. But I've learned to recover from stuff like that,
Liz Herl: so that's what we're gonna go into.
Yeah. And that's both of us is like, I, like I said, I can look back at myself, at Liz at certain moments, how. Did we recover then? And how do we recover now? Yeah. And that's where that self cycling
Tim Caldwell: But the reason I even mentioned this is because you and I have in the past talked about your discomfort of speaking Oh.
In public. Do you not like it at all? I know. So these are things, this is a good discussion is how do we get out of our own head when that moment comes. Mm-hmm. How do I get outta my own head right now? And this is public speaking. That's probably, well, I know for a fact as stress goes, public speaking, [00:17:00] singing.
What's another one? Fire The fear of drowning. These are all things that rate super high on our stress levels. So is public speaking for everyone? No. Is the occasion gonna come up that you'll have to No, but it is a good, it is, it's a good example to at least play with these notions of how do I get outta my own head?
How do I stop? Thinking about all this stuff about me and poor me and the world staring at me, or what?
Liz Herl: The biggest thing I think is it's, we're perceived in these thoughts, one of the steps that I was kind of going in into around the vicious cycle Yeah. Is our, our judgment that everyone is judging us.
We are judging ourselves. Mm-hmm. It's, I can tell you so many times that people are like, I know they must have been thinking this or, or saying, whatever, you a don't know this. We just had this conversation. You don't know what anyone else is thinking or saying. You are just compiling off of potential body language or just your own fears that this is what they perhaps could be [00:18:00] saying or thinking.
And more importantly, you are judging you. Your ability to believe in yourself, to say, okay, so I could have done better and, and kind of give, and I'm a big grace believer in saying, give yourself some self-compassion, some grace around it and say, all right, so that's really uncomfortable. That's one of my, big things I talk about anymore is like I really push people into uncomfortable conversations.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And it's an area of growth that a lot of people are resistant to. Yeah. We need to do that with ourselves. Yeah. Like having
Tim Caldwell: agreed,
Liz Herl: An understanding around where did this come from? Like why did this initially start this cycle that I created, when the discomfort happens, I tell every, in a variety of different ways.
When we go into like addressing something, I want people to call it out because we have to teach our brain to differentiate from one moment to the next. And what I mean by that is our brain is, and our body is connected to an emotional response [00:19:00] to something. Mm-hmm. So when, when something happens and we feel.
Our brain is going to tell us and signal us and say, oh my goodness, this is exactly like when you were in sixth grade. Right? And then you went into the bathroom and like, it's gonna be like sending these downloads to you and you're like, you wanna run? Run away. Run away. Right. Right. And when you have to say, wait a minute, I have to slow myself down.
I'm not sixth grade me, I'm not, you know, whatever. That's
Tim Caldwell: right.
Liz Herl: I'm not in that situation. Yes. And so I have to really dismantle myself a little bit in the moment to be like, all right, where is this coming from? The number one thing I believe with in our humanity is our brain goes into always protecting us from feeling any level of discomfort.
Mm-hmm. And this actually goes into military work, to be honest to how people are trained around pain resistant and things of that nature. But our brain is very, very capable of doing a course of. Numerous different things, but being able to slow ourselves down and [00:20:00] say, okay, first off, I'm not in that situation anymore and I have to name like, what my, what my brain or my body or my situation's trying to tell me in a moment.
So an example of that would be so I, it's kind of tough to kind of do the whole my dislike of speaking in public. Because I have a physiological response to that, that it's not so mental, it's more physiological that to unpack that there's some more, you know, like, well, remember I'm using
Tim Caldwell: that as an extreme most, right.
Most people, I would say, if I were to break this down into a scenario that's on a daily basis, it's oh, I'm, oh, I'm never gonna get that bill paid. Okay. I'm never, I'm never gonna get, I'm, I'm never gonna get this. I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna have this. I'm never, and you and I, Liz, are business owners.
We do this all the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Am I gonna have the money for that? Am I gonna it, things can get stretched pretty tight, but are, are we now? Working against ourselves? Or are we trying to stay? Are we trying to stay in a positive mode? This is a tough spot. I've been here before. Yes. We're gonna get out of it.
[00:21:00] Perfect. Or are we constantly, oh, this is bad. This is really bad. This is, and you just have this mantra of Yeah, because if this
Liz Herl: doesn't, so then you start si you spiral into, well, 'cause if this doesn't happen, then this is gonna happen. I need this to happen. And so you're doom staying yourself. And how do we slow all that process down is to literally slow ourselves down.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And just say, all right, so why, first off, like, why is it uncomfortable? We are our own worst bullies. And like, why am I beating up on myself so much? Like, oh, why didn't I remember to do that? Oh, I told myself I was gonna do this or whatever. First off, we live in a ridiculously fast-paced world that our brain cannot even, well, it tries to keep up with.
But the number of things we're telling ourselves to recall and remember and retain and then, reproduce within a matter of moments or seconds is unreasonable. And then it goes into behavior as well.
Tim Caldwell: I'll say physiologically with the neurologic component completely intact neurologically, we could take on these things visually.
We [00:22:00] probably could. Acoustic verbal, we probably can. However, I don't think we were ever meant to take on so much at once, however, no, I agree. However, I agree. If I'm not gonna dial into some type of paleo understanding or explanation for this, I'm just saying that we know that our brain capacity, typically, we only have enough room in our, in our personal lives for about 150 people.
After that, we start forgetting things. Mm-hmm. we don't remember phone numbers. Oh, absolutely. But growing up and phone, I knew a hundred phone numbers.
Liz Herl: I can recall the information line when I was growing up. I can say it right now. My, oh
Tim Caldwell: my gosh. The I could remember my mailbox. Mm-hmm.
Combination. Mm-hmm. My locker, my social security, all of these things. We don't have to do that anymore because there's so many. Mm-hmm. And the convenience of computers and the handheld devices, I don't have to.
Liz Herl: Well, and just thinking about like kind of maybe I would say, think about it in the fact of.
Yeah. Everyone can relate to what I'm about to say, the number of passwords, and then changing the passwords. Yep. Within three months or two [00:23:00] weeks or whatever. Yep. I know as a business owner. And then for health documentation, I have to change my, it's ridiculous. My, and I'm, I'm like, and then it, they're like, well, this one's too close to the last one you had.
And I'm like, what was the last one?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: exactly. Because I can't even recall it. Yeah. And it, it's so, it's so much, it's just so much. Well,
Tim Caldwell: as ridiculous as it sounds, I mean, there's so many passwords. The only place you can put 'em safely is tape them to your laptop. That's, and, and, and that, right. We're offbeat here, but I, no, but it's true.
I just wanna say is that the, the sense that we feel like we have to have all the answers and know all the answers. Yes. That's exactly what we're saying. This is what it's like. this is an unrealistic idea that you have to know all this stuff. And this is where we get all caught up in, in the, I'm being really critical of myself there. I have said my entire life, I'm good at a lot of things, but I can only be great at one or two. Correct. I mean, when you watch really articulate men, really brilliant, brilliant minds and you know exactly [00:24:00] who I'm speaking of. Mm-hmm. These people have historic knowledge, they have chronologic ability, they can pull up, they absolutely make you phone, period.
They can pull up facts and figures and historic information that's off the chain. Mm-hmm. But you know what?
Liz Herl: That ain't me. Right. And I think that then we're going into the self-acceptance piece that you're talking about there.
Managing Expectations and Self-Acceptance
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Liz Herl: So a couple of things I'm gonna bring to our listeners ears for a minute is something to consider for self is this kind of mentality bleeds into every aspect of your life that I want you to consider that.
What we perceive your, your partner or your colleague or your children, we perceive these levels of expectations in our output must meet. And we're not, by the way, checking in with anyone on these expectations that we perceive that people aren't making for us. That's right. Yeah. There are expectations.
That's right. And it's unobtainable and achievable, and it's just failure mode. And that's all you think about. Mm-hmm. Is [00:25:00] like, I didn't get this done and I didn't go to this and I didn't pick this up. And I'm a terrible person. I'm a terrible boss. I'm a terrible mother or father or whatever. And because I didn't meet the marks so many of them.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And so we get, we drown ourselves in just this. You know, obliterating self of like, you should be more and you should be better. Mm-hmm. And don't get me wrong, all over social media, that's all you hear. Don't give, you know, we hear it from all the, you know, you know, not trying to, you know, poo poo ath athletes, but they're out there.
Get out there and give your best and no, it was not an option. Yeah. And it's like, okay, so that's all a little calmed down there, Hercules, because reality of it is no one operates in, that's their brain, right? Yeah. That's their mindset. That's not yours. But it's not something I would also say you can obtain more energy from you.
Tim Caldwell: You, you're, yeah. You we're talking apples and oranges in, in the, in the real world. I, I would say the very same things, and I do make this argument all the time, the very same things that make athletes really good athletes make them really terrible. [00:26:00] Citizens, really terrible in society is you can't have this da David Goggins burn the boats and who's gonna carry the boats and mm-hmm.
Run a hundred, run a hundred miles every weekend. And, you can't do that. Right. Nobody thinks like that. Mm-hmm. And if, if you're thinking like that, get ready to be disappointed. Mm-hmm. Because there's only one David Goggins. Mm-hmm. There's only one. Dr. Peterson. There's only, there's only one. And there's only one of you.
And there's only one of you. Yeah. And de depending on how you were raised and where you were raised, we know I brought this information to you in the past that we could have, we, we've studied twins. Mm-hmm. Raised in the same household, same parents. One will be a pastor and the other will be a drug user.
Mm-hmm. We don't know what motivates, what demons we fight. We don't The white Yeah. What life throws at you. Mm-hmm. All the things. All, all of these things. Most all of these things are internal. Mm-hmm. And until you learn how to deal with those things I have a [00:27:00] large family and every one of my brothers are different.
Mm-hmm. Every one of them is different. And, raised, same father, same mother. Mm-hmm. Why are we all all different?
Liz Herl: Well, same thing here. I have two older brothers and they're completely, yeah. We're all just, you know, we are definitely not birds of a feather. Yeah. But I'll say that.
Tim Caldwell: But I can only speak to myself and, and that is, I don't stay in my head very long.
If I, if I have, Welland is an art, just so you know. Right. But I, I'm, what I try to do is, what I tried to do and impart on others is, yeah, it's broke. Let's fix it. That's it. Let's not, how did it get broke? I was dumb that I broke it. Okay. It's broken. Let's just fix it.
Liz Herl: So in speaking to that for a minute, I'm glad you brought that up.
And that is this, that I, ideally, when we think in those terms, that's something that, it's encouraging to hear, but you have perfected in your way of thinking and processing. Your brain knows what to do. Okay, it's broken, I'll fix it in whatever that, that response is. But if someone else's brain from the beginning of time [00:28:00] started bringing in information and attributing concerns of others as my worry, that's a dynamic that my brain does automatically.
So to say, well, it's broken, so I'm just, isn't your brain's like, well, that means nothing to me over here. We got 50 worries we gotta go through. Absolutely. And then I'm gonna let you need to know that you're failing in all these areas. Yeah, yeah. And then and you're like, wait a minute, I don't wanna do that anymore.
And your brain's over there like, I don't care what you think because this is how we operate. But you
Tim Caldwell: know what, I might, my pushback, not pushback, but what I might contend, in what you're having to say is. With all of these devices and with as much stimulation. Mm-hmm. Are we really getting much time inside our head thinking about problem solving?
No. Or is it just scroll, scroll, scroll at 100%. Let me, let me put it in a solution. Aha. That's where it is. And try it and fail. No, pay attention. Mm-hmm. That's a, that's a, that's another, that's another woman of another sex in another country, and it worked for her. You're ano, you're a man in an, on another hemisphere.
Mm-hmm. You don't have what she has. Why would you think that would work? You don't have the tools. You [00:29:00] don't have any of the same things that, why would you think that worked? So, stop. Well, now you're talking about what do, what do you have? And how do we use it? It's not just of a military mind or of a mind to solve problems or as an inventor or an entrepreneur.
Mine, mine is, and I'm not defending how I think mine is. I'm trying to work with what I have, trying to answer as many questions as I can in the time allowed and get the most bang for my buck. But that's not everyone. Mm-hmm. Fair enough.
I'm not trying to compare myself to others. It's, it's, this is what works for you. It's trying to, yeah. It's trying to just say, okay, we spilled the milk. Let's go get some more milk. Mm-hmm. Let's, let's figure this out. IS spilled three glasses of milk. Okay. Maybe, maybe you need a sippy cup.
Maybe you need a straw. Maybe you need a right. But the, the whole point is, is stop beating yourself up. So we'll figure this out.
Liz Herl: You saying that I want, again, people to understand as they're hearing this, that depending on your state of mind and [00:30:00] what you're thinking about yourself in this moment, whatever the moment is, and that is we're having a bad day.
And of course this would happen. I spilled my coffee and then, you know, I tripped over this and then I got something. Your um,
Tim Caldwell: beautiful. What else? Right? Well, yeah, another thing,
Liz Herl: another thing and another thing. Look how the world is working against me, first off. So a variety of circumstances is not necessarily the world against you.
Tim Caldwell: Sure.
Liz Herl: And I, it can
Tim Caldwell: feel like it, it
Liz Herl: can one hundreds. Everybody's been, there's my, everybody's been. And, and it absolutely does feel like it. So what I'm explaining is that a series of circumstances doesn't mean that the world is out to get you, but it can feel like it is. Yeah. Now that's what I want you to challenge yourself in.
So we're gonna talk about like, okay, how do we identify it? How do we start working our way through this? And being able to be like, well I am very one much so one to be like, oh, of course that's naturally, that's what's gonna come next. Yeah. But I do handle things with that level of, you know, I'm not trying to pull it inside and make [00:31:00] anything to the best of my ability.
Yeah. And just like, of course this is how it goes. Yeah, this is, you know, and being able to say, but in reality, you know, I happen to, there's, this is where I was going. I'm glad they're my thought.
Physiological Responses to Stress
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Liz Herl: Made it full circle When we are dysregulated in ourselves. Our motor system is all wacky.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: So we are not as quick, we're not as responsive.
So we get more clumsy because we're so dysregulated internally,
Tim Caldwell: physiologically true.
Liz Herl: You are responding. Absolutely. Your body and your brain are like, I don't know what's going on.
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely. And
Liz Herl: so that's the other thing I want you to understand. When you're in that negative state of mind, you physiologically respond to that
Tim Caldwell: True enough.
Liz Herl: And you, you are more clumsy and everyone like says, I'm a klutz. Like it's a brag. And it's like, actually no. Maybe you should be more mindful as to what's going on there. That not, that is, you see what I'm saying? You, you
Tim Caldwell: are completely accurate.
Clumsiness and Coordination
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Tim Caldwell: I find it fascinating to use the word clumsy because I pose this in medical school that I believe clumsiness [00:32:00] not to shift gears too much is a disease.
Clumsiness is a lack of coordination and uh, your ability to have accurate proprioception. I don't know where my feet are exactly. Mm-hmm. I know where my hands are. Mm-hmm. I bump things. Well, that happens with dehydration and age and dementia and all those things happen. Well, that's a disease process.
So why are young kids so clumsy? Well, they're growing into their bodies they haven't developed their strength or how to control this. Five new inches that I got in a summer. I don't know how to control that thing. Mm-hmm. And when you mention clumsiness, when your body's dysregulated mm-hmm.
Using your term, you know, my anxiety is up. Yeah. My heart rate's up, I'm. Even though, even though I have maybe ironclad concentration, man, I'm skipping all over the things. Yeah. Because it feels like when I broke this, I, I now have to account for every single little piece. Mm-hmm. And they're all on fire and everybody's gonna see, and they're gonna judge me and I feel like a fool because a hundred people saw this and mm-hmm.
And this, this happens all the time that you, [00:33:00] you see when accidents happen when a lady drops dishes in a restaurant mm-hmm. When people have accidents mm-hmm. When they're trying to go to the bathroom or, and it happens a lot. Right. And if you, you don't see it, you're not paying attention, but they have, you'll find that people who are older, you just handle it.
Mm-hmm. Right. Okay.
Understanding the Mind-Body Connection
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Liz Herl: Well, there's a couple of reasons why that might be the case, but I'm specifically talking about like how our thoughts are connected to the rest of our body. Yep. Heck, the brain's connected to the body. I get it.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And our nervous system. You're just pouring gasoline on fire.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm. You squeezed your adrenal gland and
Liz Herl: the more you're like, oh my gosh. Of course it was so bad. The more you do this negative Yeah. You know, feed back into your self-conscious Yeah. Constant, constantly. If I can talk, then the more you're gonna get all, all over the place and then you're gonna be like, see, everything is okay.
Well hold on again. Take a minute. Yeah. No one likes this.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: But like, okay, so this seems to be going poorly. Yeah. Yeah. And like give yourself some, you know, breathing room literally, [00:34:00] and then say okay.
Techniques for Redirecting the Nervous System
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Liz Herl: My biggest thing is the redirect of your nervous system in your brain. So the 5, 3, 2, 1 kind of idea mm-hmm.
That I was I was talking to you about earlier.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And I do this a lot with my clients. And this is a technique that anyone can use at any time in any, and it don it isn't anything that's really Where you're gonna be able to identify it by like, someone's over there, I can see them over there doing 10 deep breaths and doing, you know, hold on.
She's only on
Tim Caldwell: eight. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Liz Herl: exactly. So it's the, the sensory one. Sure. So what are the five things you can see? I always say, what are the five things you can see that are purple?
Implementing Grounding Techniques
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Tim Caldwell: Okay, so a scenario, somebody comes in and they're speaking to you about a recurring issue, and they're just all worked up.
Liz Herl: Well, sometimes I don't see that as much. 'cause I am they're pretty regulated when they come into session.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well let's say you encounter someone,
Liz Herl: right? If you're like, okay you're in a situation kind of like you embarrassed yourself in any capacity, whether it a car accident.
Tim Caldwell: Let's say you walk up on a car accident and there's a young lady. What? How would you implement this?
Liz Herl: Oh, I see what you're saying. Saying,
Tim Caldwell: see the [00:35:00] scenario. Well,
Liz Herl: that, that's a pretty big one, but yes. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to, you're like, okay, so this first off, we have to acknowledge that it's a big deal.
Everyone's like, it's fine. It's okay. Okay. Your body and your brain are screaming at you. Everything's on fine. Yeah. And there's something wrong. Yeah. So someone's saying to you, it's fine, it's okay. It's not gonna feel very good. So. Okay. So this is a lot. Mm-hmm. Okay. So this is, this seems pretty uncertain.
Try not use scary or fear or whatever. 'cause it is all those things. Mm-hmm. But it seems really uncertain, not really sure what's going on. So, you know, if look at the ground, what are five things that are, that are round on the ground, or five things that are green on the ground. And then your brain is like, you're getting information in Right.
Right. The auditory and your brain's like, well, no, I'm trying to panic, but I'm looking for, what am I looking for? You know, so then you're pulling something and then you're gonna go right into, now what are, what are four things you can touch? What does that feel like? I picked up a rock. Right. And it's like, well, it's bumpy and it's, and it, this sometimes can agitate someone because the brain's saying, Hey, I'm wanting to do something else and you're hijacking me.
Yeah. And I don't wanna do
Tim Caldwell: this right now. Right.
Liz Herl: [00:36:00] And it's like, okay, stay with me here. Mm-hmm. Kind of stay with me and, and tell me what this feels like. Four things that you can touch. Mm-hmm. And kind of elaborate what those are. And then what are you hearing? I don't hear, I can just hear, you know, I'm here.
I'm screaming in my head. Okay, what are some other things you hear? So in trying, if you're by yourself, you're gonna have to learn these techniques alone. Yeah. But if you had someone being able to be like, oh, you know, I can hear the wind or, so I can
Tim Caldwell: see where obviously a car accident or emergency that's not, those aren't not key for this kind of setup.
But you have somebody contact you and I'm so worried about my job. Mm-hmm. Or my relationship or my this, and it's just all consuming. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And they're starting to make, they're starting to. Be besides themselves, right? Mm-hmm. They're, they're just, they're working double time and not now they're all over the place.
And this is, that's a method that you would use to try to help. It could, could be beneficial, regulate, help regulate themselves,
Liz Herl: right. It could be beneficial, but it, I will, finishing that out, the two things you can smell and then the one thing you can taste, and generally someone's like, well, I can smell more than I can taste because [00:37:00] maybe I don't have anything.
I'm not consuming anything. And sometimes it's like, well, what is just dryness? Or, you know, air in your mouth or, you know, and sometimes people can actually say, I taste metallic, or I taste something for it. Because our body and nervous system is creating other chemical responses. So when I share this with people, understanding any coping mechanism, grounding technique, any style, your brain has to practice it.
For it to work.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: It's really, really frustrating when I hear people say, well, I did this 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, or I did this, I will say this. Respectfully, there is a, you know, right now I would, I think it's in the book, but there's a person out there, an individual out there sharing their experience was very beneficial.
Say to say, okay, all I have to do is these five things today, I get up, I just need these five more minutes. And so they kind of nurse themselves along throughout the day to kind of get themselves, in an actionable kind of, I guess, progressive and to be [00:38:00] productive of their day. Right,
Tim Caldwell: right.
Liz Herl: And the reliance on some mechanisms is not that, you should have self understanding that I'm not always in a coping state.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm. '
Liz Herl: cause I'm not always in a traumatic or freaking out.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: You wanna be like, okay, so this is really helpful to know I can, I can utilize this given the moment.
Now going back to what I was saying, if you go to something like this method, it's understanding. You are shifting the attention off yourself, by the way, that's one of the things I wanted to mention. Yeah. You know, when you're talking about like the five things, you see four things, you're looking outwardly, you're not going inwardly.
And you have to practice this. So understand your body might get agitated over like, I don't like doing this, this is stupid. I wanna go into negative thinking. No, you're an idiot. Now that's a dumb idea. You know, like, whatever it is, I don't know what it is, but that's gonna, you're No, I've gotta, I have to redirect, redirect, redirect your brain over and over and it can be quite beneficial.
But I wanna be very clear that it is [00:39:00] something that you have to work on. Sure. It isn't something that's automatically gonna, so this,
The Importance of Meditation
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Tim Caldwell: you know what I hear you saying, and you correct me if it's wrong, but there are lots of people who have this notion that to sit and meditate. Mm-hmm.
So people who are, let's say. Let's say your average person is trying to find a means to find a bit more calm or to regulate their emotions, or to just dial down maybe the anxiety in their life and they're told that they need to meditate. Mm-hmm. I think that everyone thinks that meditation has to be cross-legged fingers touching with a mantra.
Mm-hmm. It doesn't. Mm-hmm. All meditation is, is a focused sense of concentration, literally. Correct. And it ideally off of self. And in that you do not learn that in a day or a week or even a month. Sometimes it takes years. Mm-hmm. And as you and I both know that some of these ancient meridian therapies.
Holistic therapies, they may take years and they may practice [00:40:00] in them their whole lives and be really, really good at it. But they may never tell you they reach this level of atonement where they think that they mastered it. Mm-hmm. But they're really good at it. Mm-hmm. And, there are masters, they're out there.
Oh, absolutely. But trying to, you can't, this isn't a prescriptive thing where, you know, try three mantras and hum for 10, 10 minutes. It's not one of those. The father of memorization is repetition. And that is, you'll develop those habits if you can do 'em all the time as best you can.
Do 'em when you're calm. Do 'em when you're not calm, do 'em. But if you at least have a process and a formula, the more you practice that formula and the more it becomes yours, then it becomes a recipe. This is an analogy I always make about what's the difference between a formula and a recipe.
If I give you my grandmother's recipe and you try it, well, you measure out a cup of this and you cup of that. Mm-hmm. A cup of this. But it tastes different than grandma's. Mm-hmm. What's the difference? Oh, it's a little pinch of this. There's a little more love I can see in the oven.
It needs five more minutes, or it's, that's the difference is, [00:41:00] right? It's the individual thing, but still the formula's the same. You have to turn it into your own recipe.
Liz Herl: So really quickly, I hope everyone enjoys my how,
Tim Caldwell: oh my gosh. We're going, we're going to it. Okay.
We're
Liz Herl: going to a movie. We're
Tim Caldwell: going to a sit cam. Oh, okay.
Liz Herl: Have you ever seen, what about Bob?
Tim Caldwell: Oh, sure.
Liz Herl: Okay. Yeah. So first off I'm, that's a Bill Murray, a huge Bill Murray fan. Bill Murray. Yeah. I, and I still, to this day, I'm a huge Bill Murray fan. But so the premises of the movie is, from what I recall, 'cause it has been quite a few years since I've seen it, but I believe that Bob has agoraphobia, so like Right.
Tim Caldwell: He doesn't like to go out.
Liz Herl: Right. Yeah. And so thank you for the clarification. Yes, yes. So, yeah, so he doesn't like to go outside. It's funny because movie kind of starts off in another psychiatrist is like moving up and trying to change locations and he's giving this client to his new psychiatrist and who just wrote baby steps and it's about like, you know, how to get through things, just baby steps or something.
Sure. This
Tim Caldwell: is Richard Dreyfus, right? Yeah, correct. Richard Dreyfus.
Liz Herl: And so he gets the [00:42:00] book and what he doesn't know is he has a hyper dependent client that he's receiving and that he wants to have all accessibility to them at every given moment. And so
Tim Caldwell: for those who haven't seen the movie Bill.
Murray is the patient. Mm-hmm. Richard, Dr. Dreyfus is the new clinician. Yep. And Bill Murray, once he begins treatment, he becomes hyperfocused. Yes. On the people who are trying to help him. Right. And he just clings to them. To them clings to them. Yeah. Super Dutch. Yes.
Liz Herl: So, he just takes on, you know, Bob's character, not Bob's character.
Yeah. Well his name was Bob in there, Bob's character, which is Bill Murray. And, he's going outta town on vacation. And he swindles information from his secretary to find out where he is going. And he goes to his location of his psychiatrist to get his therapies.
Tim Caldwell: What were they doing? Sailing. They were sailing.
Sailing, yeah. Yeah.
Liz Herl: Look, I'm sailing and he's like roped or tied to, they tied into the mask to the, to the mask. But one of the great things about it is the idea of kind of what I was sharing earlier is like, he's like, baby, step to the elevator. [00:43:00] Baby Step to the bus. Yes. Baby. Step to this. Like, and it's just like, okay.
So, but he's keeping himself in such a hyper sensitive state of like, anxiety. Like, he has a cold fish in a jar that he's got tied around his neck. That's his goldfish and he's trying to make sure he can take his goldfish with him.
Tim Caldwell: It's,
Liz Herl: it's quite great. But the idea in the premises yet again is like the dependency of his.
Coping mechanisms like, like, I have to do this to get this to be successful, versus what is my self-awareness? How do I know that I'm safe? How do I know that I'm intelligent? How do I know I can, I'm capable? Like what are those things? That's kind of where I'm going. Mm-hmm. Because I, one of the biggest things I do a lot, again, I do this a lot in session and that is, I like for people to kind of become detectives on situations.
Sure, let's not think about internally what's going on of like, you know, it's probably because I didn't wear the right shirt, or this happened, or, you know, I, whatever. But like, I wonder what else is going on in the room or with that other person. One of the things that [00:44:00] I think in all of our self. Focused thoughts and behaviors. We're not considering other people in our lives. We're not considering our partners and our friends and our family and our kids and our bosses. Like, I wonder if they had a hard day. Like I've, you know, we co in with whatever it is.
It's kind of been our stressors, right? And we're like, well, I should have done this and I need to call and do this, and I need to make sure I do that, whatever it is. And then we interact with the other people in our life. How intentional are we? Or like, no, really? What was your day like?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And we're not really, by the way that, and I shouldn't say that. Most of us aren't as intentional as we should be. Yeah. Because we're still self-focused. Okay. But let me tell you about my day, right? So anyways, I messed up here. And then I did this, and then we're looking for validating parts from that person.
Versus like having the ability to take care of some of that before we get into that situation or relationship.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well, you know, if the intent is to. In a conversation dump on [00:45:00] someone. So I'm having a really bad day. And they may open the door by going, Hey, how's your day?
And then just unleash, you start to unload. Mm-hmm. Before you unload. Wouldn't it be nice if they said, before I do. How are you gonna doing? Wouldn't it be nice to know that? I think people would be shocked before I dump all my trash on your lawn. Mm-hmm. Is it okay if I dump on your lawn for a minute?
Mm-hmm. I'll clean it up, I promise. Mm-hmm. But we don't do that. Mm-hmm. We just beep, beep, beep. And here comes, here you go. This one I'm starting. I am gonna start, chew this down too. Dr. Kawell,
Liz Herl: do you have space to air me today?
Tim Caldwell: Oh yeah. We just, oh my gosh. We just listening to a a, I guess, was it a spoof of a therapist on there was real, it was, it was real.
It was real. It wasn't therapy. It wasn't therapy. No. It was actually, it was this person. It was a Bible study. Yeah.
Liz Herl: Do you have, do you have space to listen to me? Okay. Now you're being very mocking.
Tim Caldwell: Okay. I don't, no disrespect to religion or aspects to religion that
Liz Herl: just doesn't, that doesn't speak to me.
If someone were to say, do you have space to hear me today? It would be like, [00:46:00] huh. Yeah. That, like, that doesn't register. But to someone else, that's more, I would say You know. Oh, I don't even wanna say open-minded. 'cause a lot of people are open-minded, but just free spirited. Yeah. That might feel really good to hear.
Yeah. If I
Tim Caldwell: was eating kih at a cafe on Rodeo Drive and somebody, you know, gosh darn it, I, my favorite 2000 ink, $2,000 ink pen just ran dry. Mm-hmm. You know, maybe I need you to hold my hand a little, but if I'm just Joe Blow walking down the street and drop my billfold and my, all my folded money goes into the wind and you're like, Hey.
Liz Herl: Yeah. That's a bad day. You, you with that? So Yes. Get space kind of, we kind of segued there, but, going back to Yes. What you're saying is really true. It is a beautiful thing to think about. Wouldn't it be nice? I would encourage,
Tim Caldwell: I mean, just, wouldn't it be nice if we just,
Liz Herl: how I wonder what's going on, even throughout your day, I would plant the seed of, I wonder how their day's going.
They said you had that meeting. I wonder how that lunch went or Yeah. Did they get that phone call or whatever it is, [00:47:00] like, get out of yourself and maybe think about someone else. And I'm not trying to say that negatively, but that will statistically thinking of yourself dramatically increases anxiety and depression within a person.
Yeah. And so, no, I'm just saying statistically that, that we are, we are aware that happens.
Tim Caldwell: This is the, this is a bit of the nature of you and I in our professions, and it is a great overlap is that if people are in a bad mood I have a particular client who gets a little grumpy. I actually have two.
They get a little grumpy. And you know what, I bet they with you. I tell them, I tell them, no better place to be grumpy than with me. Come on, we'll be grumpy. And I talk 'em off the, I talk 'em off the ledge. Well, same with you, right? If they're in a bad mood, if they're in a bad place, if they need, we we're a better place to be than here.
Let's unravel this. And you do say it, and I'm not just gonna. Sit here and let you dump trash all over my office. What we're gonna do is put on our detective hats. How did, all this get started?
Liz Herl: And I think that's perfect because when I, when I, I wanna be clear here, something that popped in my head when I said I wanted to add some clarification.[00:48:00]
When I say I want you to think about, get curious about the other person or other dynamics in your life, this is not about blame. Right. So I just wanna be very clear there. That's right. It is, it, this is about, okay. I don't know what they were thinking when this happened, but I wonder if they know that they responded to me like that.
And being more open-minded to maybe something else is going on for them or anything of that nature. But not, oh, okay. It was their fault that this happened. Nope. That's not where I'm going in that, in that framework. Yeah. It's
Tim Caldwell: not, it's not about the assignment of fault.
This is, let's examine how this happened. Can we avoid it in the future and let's fix it.
Liz Herl: Right. So what we're essentially trying to do is help you train your brain to think outward. Right. Not inward.
Tim Caldwell: Right.
Liz Herl: And that will, I mean, I. Ideally that will be very, very beneficial.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well, you know, and most of the people know that I, my train of thought is it comes from sports and military based stuff, being raised military and then in the military.
But the idea behind problem solving is you try to do it at the lowest possible level. You try to involve the fewest amount of [00:49:00] people as you need to, and you try not to elevate it into these realms that involve more and more people at higher and higher places. You handling these things on your own, make you more valuable.
And it, those are also the skills that make you capable. Right. I'm not really reliant on other people to solve my problems. I can do this myself. It's good to have that, but you really wanna be able to. Handle most of this stuff yourself.
Sure. Everybody needs help. Right. But you should be trying to do this on your own as best you can.
Liz Herl: Right. To the best of our abilities. So to do things to make you forget about yourself a little bit. And there are so many moments that we kind of realized that when we lose track of time, that there's an understanding of what's called like, flow state.
It's just kind of your self-conscious kind of o you know, operating, it's kinda like when you get home sometimes you don't know how you got home when you're listening to music and stuff like that. Yeah. Zombie,
Tim Caldwell: oh, they call it zombie mode,
Liz Herl: right? So this, this generally happens for some in painting and running, gardening, coding, music, [00:50:00] skateboarding, things like that, that driving, driving, things like that.
That doesn't, which sounds bad. I'm getting ready to say that doesn't really matter 'cause driving really does matter. But what matters is that it pulls you in. So you're fully in a self narrative. Your self narrative fades when you're, honestly, when you're not really thinking. And this is what I mean by that is I, I happen to, like, at the end, and I've probably shared this numerous times on here, I like at the end of my day to drive home in complete silence.
I don't put it on a radio, I don't put on anything. And I just, I like just being silent I do what's kind of, I called with some of my clients, like a transition time as I'm getting outta my clinical mode, I'm going home to mom mode or you know, house mode or whatever. Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Decompressing.
Liz Herl: Because I'm like, okay, so I'm getting ready to think about what I need to know when I get home, but like, just take that space for me a little bit and literally have moments a space for myself. Yeah. And I'm being very serious there. Like, just to kind of reflect on me.
I like, okay, so this is gonna go on close out, that part of whatever was lingering. And that wearing that [00:51:00] hat stage and versus like, oh, I didn't do this and I didn't do that, and all the other things that may come into play there. The other thing I wanna share really briefly, and that is we really love to mind read.
I'm very, very skilled at it as is everyone on the face to planet? Yes. As
Tim Caldwell: your skilled mind reader. Yes. Yeah.
Liz Herl: No, I'm not. No one is, and everyone perceives that they are.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: I do think you can be very intuitive. Mm-hmm. You can be a very good body language reader. Mm-hmm. You can be actually trained, very skilled in that, to be honest.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: However there is enormous amount of assumptions that are being made in body language. Facial expressions body language kind of covers body movements, tones and of course the beloved. Text message. Yes. Any type of message. Yeah. That we get in, when I say text, it can be in any type of format, you know, messenger, snap.
Yeah. That's, that's a mad name. Instant, you know, whatever, Instagram, any of those, wherever you get your message from, you can [00:52:00] read it from a, a really flawed, anything
Tim Caldwell: written by man can be interpreted different by man.
Liz Herl: That's, and it generally does,
Tim Caldwell: and that all comes down to one wrong piece of punctuation
Liz Herl: all the
Tim Caldwell: time. All the
Liz Herl: time. Actually, it could be one flawed punctuation. Absolutely. But I actually say, I'm going back into self here. Yeah, no, your self. Where are you, where are you at? Because I, I love this yet. Keel and Peel did this great dialogue where they're dialoguing back and forth through text messaging and one's getting really amped up.
It's cool, it's whatever. It's cool, it's whatever, you know, like he, they're just like making one's being very, very hyperresponsive. The other one's being like, just super chill. Guess. But no one is just really in their head about how the other is, is sending messages and the other is just like, whatever they hate.
It's up to you, man. Whatever. The reason
Tim Caldwell: I use the term decile is 'cause that that's what we see in, in conversation. The media is just such a lie. But if you have somebody say I like the color orange. Oh, you hate blue. What? I didn't say [00:53:00] that. Well, you must hate blue. 'cause you said you loved what? I didn't.
I have No, you're in your head over here and I'm in a right's. What you're saying that, that's what I mean about the gaslighting thing, and that is just because I I have told you, I reserve the right to be completely arbitrary. I can, like, I can love two opposite things. I can hold two different thoughts.
Well, you can be your own person, not prescribe either one. That's right. And that's what needs to happen when you step outta yourself is stop being, stop thinking of you and talking about you and what can I do for others, but how do I solve my problems? Gotta get outta your own head first.
Liz Herl: So couple of things is to identify, you are probably assuming judgment, you're assuming you look foolish, you're assuming that you were too much or not enough or whatever. Like you're assuming a lot.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Perhaps you challenge yourself in all your mind reading skills on what you perceive is happening and being a little facetious there, but I'm very serious in the fact that.
What's another explanation for this?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, sure.
Liz Herl: Externally, not internally, externally. Is this thought helpful [00:54:00] or is it habitual?
Tim Caldwell: Hmm.
Liz Herl: And that's one of the other things like, okay, so I always tend to go to this, this is my go-to. Everybody has go-tos, right? These
Tim Caldwell: are the superlatives they say.
Mm-hmm. Always, never. Mm-hmm. No, that's not, that's not true.
Liz Herl: Yeah. And I have been ever since you said that, I've been very, every time I try and use always, I reframe it really quickly and I'm like, okay. Always is not really. But I think it's important, like, until you bring that to someone's like, you know, we always do this.
It's like, no, we don't always do this. It's not always do this, but it's like that common language. We never do this
Tim Caldwell: first. I never did. I just did it last week.
Liz Herl: I mean, I just think that some of those things is understanding, being kind to yourself. You're not trying to beat up on yourself anymore than you already are.
Sure. So when I say look inward do that with so much self-compassion.
Tim Caldwell: Sure.
Liz Herl: And try and identify is this where I, what are my go-tos of being, you know, my own bully? I always tell people to put down the phone. That's one of your biggest bullies that you don't really realize because of your comparison of self.
Or, you know, somebody did this and I didn't do that, or [00:55:00] whatever it may be.
Tim Caldwell: Well, you're not gonna find you on that phone.
Liz Herl: Oh, heavens no.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. We're not supposed to be so hyperconnected, so overstimulated all day devices. Early in the morning devices, the last thing we see, it's just too much.
Yep. It's just too much. And to get out of ourselves is again, to find the place to give yourself some grace and go, alright, I didn't you so good there. So how do I fix this? Is that all right? You dumb ass? You know I'm not gonna be all right. Dumb ass. But you did it right. Look what you did again.
Mm-hmm. And, and Oh, I'm gonna expect a phone call now from my dad or my brother. See, I told you that wouldn't work. Mm-hmm. That's not how that's gonna work. Right. It's, I take, take the best of what you can from it. Salvage what you can from it. I learned more from this failure than I did than the last and this Thomas Edison thing about failure to build a light bulb.
No, I learned 10,000 ways how a light bulb doesn't work. This is how it works. But I wouldn't have learned it. And you have to step out of that. Problem solving is to step out of all this condemnation and what I've done wrong [00:56:00] into, okay, what can I do better? And who is it I can talk to?
And they won't pile on me either.
Liz Herl: Mm. That's gonna be tricky. That's
Tim Caldwell: a tough one. Mm-hmm. That's a tough one. It can be
Liz Herl: tricky. After everything we talked
Tim Caldwell: about, they, Peterson says that one of the true signs of a true friend is not who you can go to when you're having a bad time.
It's who you can tell good things to. Mm-hmm. Because really a friend, when you tell them something really good, they should be there to celebrate with you. Absolutely. And if they're just, oh, wow, yeah. Good for you. All right. Bye. Or they're just trying to poo all the ideas of their goodness. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Well, of course that happened to you. Mm-hmm. It's always you. Yeah.
Self-Compassion and Problem Solving
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Liz Herl: Well, a final thought for me for everyone is, I know for myself, and I'm sure for anyone listening and I'm sure it's applies, I know it applies to all of us in, in being humble in that, is that being in your head is exhausting.
It's overwhelming you, it's you're feeling unintentionally. I do believe we do this unintentionally, so self-absorbed [00:57:00] in this weird way we're feeling as Roy's trying to get away from it versus maybe face it like what the weird feeling is.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Because understand that your brain is. Formed by habits and habits can be broken.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: But it is really tough because we're talking about habits you may have created for years and decades Yeah. And responses that it's like, this is really hard. So if that is the case I always encourage you to find your local area, therapist online. You can go to Psychology Today, or there's just a numerous different outlets that you can go to and find, Sure.
a therapist to kind of process this through.
Tim Caldwell: And there are a therapist. Of all kinds.
Liz Herl: Oh, all
Tim Caldwell: over. Yeah. Everywhere. No, not, not, not everywhere. There are all kinds of different, you need to find a therapist you feel really comfortable with. Oh,
Liz Herl: I see what you're saying. Yeah. Always. You need to make sure.
Yeah. Do your best to do some, you don't have to
Tim Caldwell: have a connection to your therapist.
Liz Herl: Yeah. I Absolutely. Therapeutic alliance is everything. So making sure that you're reaching out and you're trying to do some consultations to see if your vibes are vibing [00:58:00] together. Yeah. Yeah. Vibing. That's, that's been my word.
I'm so cool. You're so cool. Oh my goodness. I said it to my 11-year-old for sure. I told her I was so super cool. She didn't
Tim Caldwell: think I was so cool. In, in mine. I would just re I would remind people, especially as we get older, I challenge you to tell me a time in your life when everything you dreaded ever really came true.
We just blow things up in our minds. Mm-hmm. It's only a fraction of, it's true. Mm-hmm. If any of it's true. That's very small. The other is when you're, people will say, I've tried everything. Mm-hmm. I've tried everything. You haven't tried everything.
'cause if you tried everything, you would've had a resolve. Mm-hmm. You need to try something different. Mm-hmm. And quit trying to think you have all the answers. You don't have to have all the answers. You won't. I'm giving you permission to not have all the answers. Mm-hmm. That's what libraries are for.
Mm-hmm. That's why we have libraries. That's how old you are. You said? Libraries. Libraries. But the idea is seek help from find a mentor, find people who are Yeah. Absolutely. Find people who have been [00:59:00] in your craft, in your trade, in your profession longer than you, and can buy you a cup of coffee and ask you a couple questions.
Mm-hmm. Gosh, that's a great way to learn things. But the other is, and, and my final thought towards this stuff is, especially in the business that I'm in, is a professional trainer and hopefully help shape people's lives for. Longer fruitful for productive lives is Yes. So here we are. Mm-hmm. So, big deal.
Let's fix it. I, I'm too this and I'm too, that you're not too anything. Mm-hmm. You just fix it and, and maybe you don't know what the fix is. You look at it, but look at it. But you know what, I'll help you. Mm-hmm. If you don't want to use me, I'll will use somebody else. Maybe somebody local, maybe a female, maybe somebody older, maybe whatever.
But don't think that it's just you. Mm-hmm. Because as all the tale is, as old as time, this has been going on for as long as. Man has walked this earth that we have some kind of [01:00:00] fear or dread or something. And the problem solving is how we get out of that.
Liz Herl: Right? Absolutely.
Tim Caldwell: And this is a, this is a great time to take care of ourselves.
Great time. Very good. No, no, no. Better time than now. Thanks Liz for having me.
Liz Herl: Yep. There's just a big, beautiful world going on out there and not inside your head, so That's right. Maybe you consider that. That's right. So yes, thanks everyone. Please like into our social media aspects of Instagram and Facebook, and of course, wherever you get your podcast, you can subscribe there as well.
So thanks everyone. We will see you guys next time.
Tim Caldwell: Appreciate Liz, I hope folks maybe can tune into, on my side of the house on genuine effort, LLC. I'm mostly on Instagram, but you can find me on other things too.
Liz Herl: You can find him on genuine effort. LLC, that Yeah, you can,
Tim Caldwell: I'm not very good at promoting myself, but I'm certainly gonna do that.
We do have online services, but I'm a little rocky at that 'cause I like to do everything in person, but I am doing, and I appreciate Liz. This has been a big, big help, so, all right. Thanks guys. Nice being [01:01:00] here.
Liz Herl: All right. Take care of yourselves.
Tim Caldwell: All right. Bye-bye.