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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
. Annemarie: Welcome.
I'm Anne-Marie Rivers and
I'm here with Al James.
Hello.
And today we're talking about
ecclesiology, uh, which is
the theology of the church.
But here's a question for us to
consider before we get into it.
Is youth group.
Church is kids church, church is
our afterschool Kids clubs, church.
What do you think?
Al: Yeah, that is a, it's a great question
and it's, um, one that in our, um,
children's and youth ministry foundations
course we love to wrestle over.
Um, you know, associated question
is morning tea, church is supper,
church, all these kinds of things.
Um, and, uh, I don't
actually know the answer.
Or I, I mean, I probably have leanings.
I'm not gonna give them
away at this point in time.
But, um, some people when we, when we
teach this, some people are very strongly
of the opinion that kids church or kids
club or youth group is church, just in the
same way that, you know, a Sunday service.
Um, or a Saturday night service or
whatever it is that you'd normally kind of
consider church to be is, you know, they
think it definitely is church, kids club,
youth group, and some people are very
much of the opinion that, um, kids club
or youth group is definitely not church.
And, um, and you know, where you
land on that will impact on the, the
way in which you kind of go about
ministry to some, to some degree.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
And we encourage you to
think about your reasons.
Like you've probably had a strong
reaction, definitely some of you have.
Um, but why, what are your reasons
for having that perspective?
Particular perspective.
And really in this conversation,
we want to, uh, yeah, dig into what
ecclesiology means for our, um, children's
and youth practice and what are our,
the different perspectives on that.
Um, and that might be a
little bit disruptive.
Um, but that's okay.
We can.
We can wrestle with the questions
and see where we go with it.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Annemarie: What other questions
might ecclesiology seek to answer?
Al: Yeah, so first of all,
I guess like what is church?
Um, things like who is church?
Like, are there people that are, you
know, sitting in a Sunday service
that are church and that aren't
church or aren't part of the church?
Like, what is the church for?
What's it.
What's its purpose?
Does it have a purpose?
You know, what, uh, what makes
church, church, like what are
the, the, you know, the compulsory
ga the compulsory activities?
Like, are there, are there compulsory
activities that make something church?
How many people do you have to
have there for it to be church?
You know, can you have church on your own
or do you have to have other people there?
Some denominational questions like,
you know, is the Anglican church the
church, or is the local denominate
the, sorry, the local gathering.
Church, so you kind of got, you
know, denominational versus local,
all these sorts of questions.
So like any question you can come
up with to think about church, um,
these are the kinds of things that
ecclesiology will seek to answer.
Annemarie: Okay.
Well that sounds great.
Let's dig into it.
Uh, so let's start with that first one.
What is the church?
Al: Yeah, so, and it, I mean, it's
probably worth saying that a lot
of what we're talking about here
comes out in, um, chase Koons.
Great paper on, uh, ecclesiology and
Young People, um, which he presented a
number of years ago at House Conference.
It's called the Doctrine of the
Church and Age Specific Ministries.
Um, you can also find it actually
in a really great book, Australian
Evangelical Perspectives on Youth
Ministry, um, which, you know,
you can Google that and find that
Annemarie: That's right.
Edited by Ruth Lacayo.
Al: Yeah.
Who is, you know, one of the
lectures at Youth Works College.
And, um, he really kind of, um, in his
paper, he talks a fair bit about, um,
the, the theology or the ecclesiology of
Donald Robertson and, um, Broughton Knox,
who, um, have, have had a big influence in
ecclesiology in the Sydney Anglican world.
And a lot of, uh, a lot of
what they talk about revolves
around the Greek word Ecclesia.
Now, Emory, like, what does
the Greek word Ecclesia mean?
Annemarie: Church.
Al: Church Gathering.
Annemarie: Gathering.
Al: Gathering, yeah.
So specifically gathering.
And so, um, you know, uh, chase Koons
sort of takes us through, um, some of
the, some of the thinking that's happened.
And he talks about how Donald Robinson
says that the biblical word for
church means simply the gathering.
So it's the activity of the people of God,
Annemarie: and
Al: therefore it's not the people of God.
Per se.
Okay.
So it's the, the activity
of the people of God.
So it's a, it's a verb,
like it's a doing word chur.
It's like churching or
gathering that kind of thing.
So that's Donald Robinson.
Annemarie: So Robinson's making
the distinction between, uh, what
people are doing in gathering
as opposed to who they are.
Al: Yes.
And I guess what that means is that
if it's not the people of God per
se, that means that a denomination
under Donald Robinson's views a
denomination is not the church.
The local gathering is the church.
There's a lot of kind of, uh,
you know, focus on the local
expression of gathering together.
Annemarie: And there are
some other perspectives too.
Al: Yeah.
So Kevin Giles comes along and he
says, well, the biblical word for
church can mean both the people
of God and the activity of the
people of God, which is gathering.
And then Graham Cole comes along
and he says, both the people of God
and the gathering of God's people
are important, but they're distinct.
So the church that is the
gathering is always and only the
gathering of the people of God.
And so.
It becomes really, uh, you
know, under, under this view.
And, you know, this sort of has, um,
played out over time, but under this
view it is very much the gathering.
So it's about that activity
of coming together, the
gathering of the people of God.
And so that sort of raises the, the
question then, um, what happens to
the church when it's not gathering?
Like does it stop?
Like does it just cease to exist?
Annemarie: Mm.
That's an excellent question.
Yeah.
But I've got another question for you.
Mm.
Where does the church come from?
Al: Yeah, so Chase Kein really helpfully,
um, says in his paper, the church
is a creature of the word of God.
That is the church comes
from the word of God.
And so the church comes into
existence through the hearing and
responding to the word of God.
And he says the word precedes faith.
And without the word, there is no faith.
With no faith, there is no church.
As the church is by definition
a community of faith.
Faith.
And so the people of God are
redeemed by faith in Christ.
Annemarie: Wow.
I think I've gotta slow down
and listen to that again.
Al: Yeah.
Do you want me to read it again?
Yeah.
Alright.
Okay.
So the word precedes faith.
Faith.
And without the word there is no faith.
With no faith, there is no
church as the church is by
definition, a community of faith.
The people of God redeemed
by faith in Christ.
And so this hearing of the word, um, this
responding in faith is what brings the
church or brings church into existence.
It's the hearing and the
responding to the word of God.
That means the church exists at all.
Annemarie: Okay, so let's just step
back for a minute and summarize.
Mm-hmm.
So far we've talked about, uh, the
church is created by the word of God.
Mm-hmm.
Um, as that, as you were just
explaining with the quote from Chase.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, what else?
Al: Yeah.
So it's, it's created by the word of God.
Um, it's the gathering so that, that
word gathering really important.
It's of the people of God.
Okay.
So even if the activity of gathering is
distinct from the, the people that gather
it is still a gathering of those people.
Um.
And it's around God's word for
the building up of God's people.
Okay?
So we, we know that from, um, you
know, one Corinthians and places where
it talks about this idea of edifying.
Um, and so that's, that's
sort of what it is.
It's also an activity of the people of
God, but it's not the people of God.
Okay?
So the church, the Anglican
church, according to, to Chase
Coon, the Anglican church, the
denomination, that's not the church.
The gathering of God's people.
That is church.
Annemarie: Yeah.
So the gathering is a
really key concept here.
Mm-hmm.
Which does lead to the question of
like, what are we gathering for?
Mm-hmm.
Al: Mm.
So what's the purpose of church?
Annemarie: Yeah.
That could be another way to say it.
What is the purpose?
Al: Yeah.
So, um, Webster would say,
and Chase Coon kind of, um,
outline, outlines this for us.
He would say that the church is
defined as the hearing church.
So its purpose is to hear the word of God.
And so.
Um, related to, I guess, what
the purpose of the church is.
Um, uh, Robinson suggests that because the
church is the gathering of god's people
around God's word for fellowship and the
building up of God's people, the task
of church and get ready for this Emory,
it's, I'm just about to drop a bomb.
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
Al: The task of church
is not evangelistic.
Annemarie: Yeah.
Okay, so, so Robinson was saying
that church isn't about evangelism.
Al: Well, I'm not sure that he would say
that It's that he's certainly not anti
evangelism, but he is saying that the
task of the church or maybe the purpose
of church is not necessarily evangelistic.
So, um.
Annemarie: um,
Al: You know, I, I think there's
certainly place for evangelism,
within this ecclesiology.
But, I guess it's just to sort of, make
clear that that's not the sole purpose
of the church, or that that's not the
primary purpose even of the church.
That the purpose is to hear the
word of God and respond, and in
that context, I mean, in some
ways that is what evangelism is.
It's the hearing and responding
to God's word, um, of people
that haven't heard yet.
Um, but he would say that the primary
purpose of church is not evangelism.
Even if evangelism happens
as the church gathers.
Annemarie: Yeah.
Okay.
And there are different
perspectives on that, isn't it?
Like there's, there's people that would
say the church exists to be itself,
to, to just be this, uh, this gathering
of God's people who respond and hear
God's word as you've been saying.
Uh, whereas others might say no, that
there is a purpose that flows out of it.
Yeah.
Al: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, and I think that's really
important sort of thing to, it's a
really important question to ask Yeah.
Is does the church have a, is,
is it a means to a greater end?
Annemarie: um,
Al: Or is it a good end in and of itself?
And I think that, that Knox and Robinson
would say that the gathering of God's
people is a good in and of itself.
You could argue that its greater end
is the glory of God, um, as well.
But, the activity of gathering is,
is a wonderful expression because
it's bringing together god's people.
And so it's kind of bringing together
the community of people that God
has brought, that God has saved
Annemarie: So what you're saying
there reminds me a little bit of what
Paul talks about in Ephesians, uh,
chapter one and two, I think, where
he's talking about, you know, um, the
gathering of God's people in the, in
the heavenly church, so to speak, um,
and the glory that that brings to God.
In the unity of the church,
basically in church being what it is.
So I hear you saying that Robinson
is not anti anti evangelism.
Like so where, what is
the place of evangelism?
Al: Yeah.
Yeah.
So how, like, how does evangelism
take place within his ecclesiology?
So the activity of the people of
God, um, is a good end in and of
itself, but I, I mean, I think that
there are a bunch of ways in which
evangelism does happen in that context.
Well, number one, the, the preaching
and the hearing and the responding to.
The word of God, in some senses,
that is an evangelistic thing, right?
So if a nonbeliever is in the gathering,
um, and they hear the word of God
and they respond to it, and they, and
they, you know, whether it's over a
long period of time or whether it's
instantaneously they convert well,
you know, that is what evangelism is
Annemarie: That reminds me about,
um, it, it's one Corinthians isn't
it, where he talks about the outsider
coming in and seeing the church
in action and being convicted.
Yeah.
Um, of, you know, the reality
of the gospel of, of God
because of what they see.
Yeah.
And also about what Jesus said in terms
of if you love one another, then the whole
world will know that you're my disciples.
Like that loving one another
only happens as they gather.
Yeah, yeah,
Al: yeah, yeah.
Which makes this the intelligibility
thing really important.
Right?
So like in one one Corinthians,
it, it definitely talks about the
importance of intelligibility.
You don't want, you don't want,
you don't want what you do as you
gather to, to be unintelligible to
the outsider, even if it's weird.
Still needs to be understandable because,
because I, and I think that part of that
is that the activity of gathering is
in some ways inherently evangelistic,
even if that's not the purpose of it.
The other thing is, as, as you think
about , one Peter chapter two, where it
talks about the idea of, you know, God's
people being a chosen people, a royal who
priesthood a holy nation, God's special
possession, that they may declare the
praises of him who called you out of
darkness and into his wonderful light and.
You know, you get this picture as well
in, um, in verse 12 of living such
good lives amongst the pagans, that
though they accuse you of doing wrong,
that they may see your good deeds and
glorify God on the day that he visits us.
And so, you know, this idea
of the gathered people of God.
Or certainly the people of God being like
the mediators between God and the world.
And so I think, I actually think that as
we gather together and we do, we do the
things of gathering, we hear God's word.
We, you know, we act together,
respond, praise, um, praise God.
You know, corporately, I actually
think that that is a really
powerful witness to the world.
And so we want.
Our gatherings to be kind of open and
have this sort of porous edge so that,
you know, people are in the gathering.
They're seeing the weird and wonderful
and strange things that the people
have God are doing as they gather.
And it's compelling.
You know, they, they're seeing
the way which this, this Jesus
shaped community, know, it is this
beautiful and wonderful thing.
Annemarie: Yeah.
And I can see how like there
is such a close association
between those two things.
So like, it is, the church can
exist just to exist, just to be the
beautiful thing that God made it to be.
Yeah.
Um,
Al: 'cause God wants it.
Annemarie: Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it is for his glory.
Um, and this is.
Like in his sovereign purpose,
the way he has decided to work.
Um, but also when that happens, then
evangelism is the natural outflow like
people do see and are attracted and
do come in and join the family of God.
Al: Yeah.
And Chase Coon talks about, , how the
church gathers and it scatters as well.
And so, you know, some, one thing
that's similar to what you're saying
there is that when the church gathers.
, And it, it's the gathered people
of God and then it scatters and it
brings the gospel that it's heard
as it gathers to the people around.
And that's a really beautiful
picture in, in Chase's work.
Um, but the other, the other aspect of
it is, as we've just been sort of talking
about, is that when it's gathered in some
ways, that is also evangelistic, even
without the purpose of being evangelistic.
Um, which is a really
precious and beautiful thing.
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
And it sort of leads me to the question
of like, is evangelism a team sport?
Like something we do together as God's
people, or is it an individual sport?
Um, but the thing is it can be both.
Yeah.
Um, which does again, clarify that
distinction a little bit, that the church
as the gathering of God's people mm-hmm.
It does is something special in
itself, whereas evangelism can
happen both as people are gathered
and, and as a team, but also as
the church scatters and goes out.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Uh, but I've got another
question for you though.
Like, so are we the church when
we go home on a Sunday afternoon?
Al: Well, yeah.
, According to the Knox Robinson
kind of articulation of things.
No, the church is an intermittent thing.
It's sort of like a
light switch on and off.
That is when it's gathered the.
That's when it is church, because it's so,
it's so about the activity of gathering.
And so when it's not gathering
well, then it actually ceases to
exist, at least in an earthly sense.
And so, you know, the earthly
gathering is an intermittent thing.
It turns on, it turns off, it
gathers, and then it's scatters.
Annemarie: But I have heard people
talk about the heavenly church.
What, what are, what is that?
Al: Yeah.
Okay.
So, and that's the point of tension
at this point in our lecture,
always people are going, how, what?
No.
How can the church stop existing?
Right.
Well, it doesn't stop existing.
Okay.
So, because according to Knox, and
then also Kon, you are not just
part of an an earthly gathering.
You're actually also part of
the heavenly church, which is
always gathered spiritually.
Okay, so I'm gonna read a a
quote here from Chase Coon.
He says, for Knox, the presence of Christ
is the constitutive element of the church.
Okay?
That's the presence of Christ is
the thing that makes the church.
Church.
Christ is seated in heaven.
Physically and believers are
present there with him spiritually.
On earth.
Believers congregate physically and Christ
is present there with them spiritually.
So we've got this sort of
physical, spiritual kind of
swapping going on with this.
Okay.
So the heavenly church, Christ is
there physically, believers are
there, spiritually, the earthly
church, Christ is there, spiritually,
believers are there physically.
Annemarie: Okay.
That's a lot to wrap my head around
as well, but I think I'm with
you so where do we go with that?
Al: Yeah, it's actually
pretty amazing in some ways.
Okay, so just another quick quote here.
So a quick quote which will be also
Annemarie: meaty.
Meaty.
Al: So and so stop me along the way,
Annemarie, if we need to kind of
define terms, that kind of thing.
So, , Kun says, therefore.
If we've got this spiritual and
physical swapping in the Earthly and
the Heavenly Church, um, he says,
therefore, the expression of the
heavenly church on Earth is only
ever a local congregation on earth.
This means that the church on Earth
is intermittent and multi-form in
contrast to the heavenly church
that is constant and singular.
Annemarie: Okay, I think I'm with you.
I think what you mean by intermittent and
multiform is, uh, not always happening.
Al: So intermittent on, off.
Annemarie: On off.
Yes.
And multiform can be
various shapes and sizes.
Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And in lots of different
places at at the same time.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
So that's the earthly church.
Whereas the heavenly church is constant.
That is, it's not on off,
Annemarie: it's,
Al: you know, there's no light switch.
It's just a glowing
light and it's singular.
There is only one.
So we don't have Hoxton Park, we don't
have, you know, um, Rosell, we don't
have, we've just got the heavenly church.
It's just the one.
. Annemarie: All right.
So what are the implications, , of
this for youth in kids ministry?
Al: Yeah.
Well, I mean, I, I guess to say that
the Heavenly Church is singular.
If it is singular, that is, if there's
only one that's made up of, you know.
Essentially it's the makeup of all
the different earthly churches.
If it's singular, and I love
this, it must also be diverse.
Annemarie: Ooh.
Okay.
Tell me more about that.
Al: Yeah, so, so if, if the heavenly
church is, is, you know, it's,
there's only one heavenly church.
It's not multiform.
It's constant and it's just the one thing.
Well then it's gonna have, you know,
people, , from Ecuador and it's gonna have
people from, Australia and it's gonna have
people from Mexico and it's gonna have
people from China, and it's gonna have
people from Tibet and people from China
and Tibet are gonna be, you know, like
they're gonna be in fellowship together.
Um, it's, it's singular
and because it's singular.
It's diverse.
And so the diversity of the church is
a really important part of what it is.
Okay.
And, um, you know, and so the implications
of this for youth and children's
ministry is that actually so too,
should we be seeking to express , what
the heavenly church is that we though
we might be singular in our local
expression, we also are diverse.
And so, for example, there's no racism.
Annemarie: Yeah.
It reminds me of that, uh, that
little glimpse we get in revelation
of every tribe and nation.
Yeah.
Um, standing together and I
think singing the one song.
Al: Yeah.
Annemarie: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Al: Amazing.
And so we wanna celebrate diversity.
In our youth and children's ministry, , we
wanna celebrate all kinds of diversity.
Whether that might be, you know,
the, diversity of nations that
we're representing, or whether it
be the diversity of age ranges.
And even, I would say we want to be
pointing towards the heavenly church
in so far as, our age specific youth
ministry, we mustn't see it as the end
point because there's a limit to the
diversity that we can have in that.
And so we're looking towards and hoping
that, you know, it can be a fuller
expression of the diversity that we're
gonna see in the heavenly church.
Annemarie: Yeah.
So there is a sense in which
for now, while there is those
like church into different ways,
like, what's the right word?
Al: Heavenly and Oh, expressions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Annemarie: of church.
While there is this, , our present
earthly expression of church
as well as the heavenly church.
Like we, like you're kind of suggesting
that we are, we want to be moving
towards what it will be like in the
heavenly church, even though that
can only happen to a limited extent.
Yeah.
In the here and now.
Yeah.
So we, we do welcome people of different,
um, languages and nations and cultures
and ages, um, because that's what it
will be like in the Heavenly Church.
Um.
But obviously that presents different
challenges and um, and we might, you know,
we might have different congregations
speaking different languages in order to
accommodate people hearing and responding
and growing, um, as they hear God's word.
Yeah,
Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I mean like maybe to summarize
where we're up to now, like we've got,
the church is created by the word of God.
It is the gathering of the people
of God around God's word for
the building up of God's people.
It's an activity of the people of
God, but it's not the people of God.
So there's a distinction between the two.
It gathers and then it
scatters, so it's intermittent.
And then the heavenly church
is presently gathered.
It's singular.
And therefore because it's
singular, it's diverse, and
just throwing in there as well.
According to Robinson, the
church's task is not evangelistic.
Even if evangelism might
happen in the context of what,
what's going on as they gather.
Annemarie: And in Coon's paper, um,
he makes some pretty, um, helpful
observations about what this all
means for age specific ministries.
Yeah.
Al: so the first one is that he would
say that age specific ministries
are valid expressions of church.
So that's where he lands, is that youth.
Youth group, kids club, um, you know,
kids, church, um, Bible study, all
those sorts of different things.
They are valid expressions of church.
Um, which I think is a
very significant thing.
Now, you might agree with that, you
might disagree with that, that's fine.
Either way.
You, you know, you gotta
work these things out.
Um, but Kuhn would say that.
That, uh, kids club, youth
group, et cetera, age specific
ministries are valid expressions
of the gathering of God's people.
Annemarie: Yeah.
So he might say they're valid expressions,
but perhaps not ideal expressions.
Al: Exactly.
That's the second observation that
he makes, is that they're not ideal
expressions of church, and that's
partly because they are limited as
to who's kind of allowed to be there.
Right.
So, you know, it's age limited.
Now the heavenly church
is not age limited.
\ And so we know then that, um, age specific
ministries, because they are exclusive,
are not ideal expressions of church.
Um, you know, we are wishing that
they were more diverse than they
are cer certainly in terms of age.
Um.
Now there's lots of good reasons
to not have, you know, anybody
turning up to a youth group.
There's lots of good, safe ministry
reasons, all that sort of stuff.
Um, I should say not to,
not to have just anybody.
We do want people to be there.
But, uh, what these things mean is that
even if they are an expression of church,
they're not an ideal expression of church.
Um, and so, you know, there's limitations.
Annemarie: Yeah.
And to shift, um, to sort of shift the
imagery a little bit, if we think about,
uh, Tim Bihar's book, uh, the Child in
God's Church, he talks about, you know,
the three different spheres where, um,
the discipleship of the child can happen.
So, uh, in the home, in the church
as a whole, but also in age specific.
And like, there is something lovely about
the way that Tim imagines those three
spheres working together, like in a sense.
That wider context helps us to go,
it's okay if it's not ideal for now.
Al: Yeah, I, and, and I mean,
in some ways, like any church
service is not an ideal expression
Annemarie: of church
Al: anyway.
And so we're still dealing
with that, that same problem.
And that's, that's not because it's
closed off, you know, like Sunday
service is, you know, I don't know
very many Sunday services that say.
If you are of this age, you can't
come, or if you are of this, if you're
of this ethnicity, you can't come.
Like, I don't, I don't really
know of that, um, happening.
Um, and yet, um, certainly just by the
way that we do things, the preferences
we have and that kind of thing.
Um.
You know, all Sunday services are
less than ideal insofar as they,
they don't represent every nation,
every age, every tribe, every
language and that kind of thing.
And so we're, we're dealing with
the same thing in a Sunday service
as we might be in a, um, a youth
ministry or a kids' ministry.
Annemarie: So if that's true, then I
guess I wanna think more about what
does that mean for our youth groups
and kids' churches and kids' clubs.
Yeah.
Al: so I think like the thinking
about Koons two broad observations.
The first one being, you know
that age specific ministries
are valid expressions of church.
Certainly one of the things that that
does is it, it, you know, it's in, it's in
the description there, it validates them.
It, it highlights the importance of them.
Um, and you know, it, it, it
shows the importance of pastoring.
Annemarie: pastoring,
Al: You know, groups of young people
that, you know, if they're a congregation
of the church in a sense, or if they
are a church, you know, like if they're
a gathering of God's people, well that,
that puts them, you know, it puts the
task of youth and children's ministry.
Um, at a very high level
of very high importance.
Um, so we wanna resource it.
We wanna be thinking carefully about it.
We wanna be, you know, moving from
theology to practice, even in youth
ministry, you know, even in kids' ministry
because it is really, really important,
um, because young people are according to
Kon, um, when they gather as God's people,
they are a valid expression of church.
Annemarie: I think another implication
might be too, the importance
of keeping God's word central.
Like again, this might be something
that we assume and is always true,
and hopefully that's the case, but if.
Um, church is gathering around God's
word, uh, then and also like through
the word the church has given birth.
Yeah.
Um, it really does mean we need to keep
God's word central in our kids and youth
Al: Yeah.
We wanna be doing the things that church
should be doing, um, in our age specific
ministries if we're gonna take that view.
Um, and you know, I would argue that
even if you don't take that view,
there's a good, there's a good reason
to be, to be doing that anyway.
Annemarie: True, true.
Al: But I guess it's an, it's
an added safeguard, isn't it?
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
The other potentially more
controversial question that comes
up is, uh, if those, those programs
are expressions of church, um.
Then where does the
evangelism purpose fit in?
Because there's lots of us, I think, who
would say, oh no, my kids club exists, or
My youth group exists to be evangelistic.
Al: Yeah, I mean, and it's a great
question and I think probably drives to
the heart of, you know, not necessarily
ecclesiology, but one of the really
interesting dynamics in church life.
Of, you know, the difference or not,
you know, the but, but the dynamic
between discipleship and evangelism.
Um, and, you know, arguably.
Evangelism is discipleship, but
it's discipleship That's, you
know, that brings someone to faith.
And so, you know, the, the, I mean,
one of the things that we often talk
about is, okay, well, is there, you
know, what, what is discipleship?
Well, this proclamation of God's
word, um, that people might respond.
Annemarie: And
Al: what is evangelism?
Well, it's the proclamation of God's
word that people might respond.
Um, what makes it different
is that the who of responding.
And so there's gonna be contextual
things depending on, on, on all
sorts of different, you know, um,
factors as to how you go about that.
Um, but you know, arguably there's,
there, well there is a great degree
of continuity between evangelism and
discipleship in that, in that regard.
Um, uh, yeah, so it's, it's a,
it's a really good question.
So is our.
Kids club evangelistic?
Well, I would say if it's, if,
if you're gonna say it's a valid
expression of church, it is.
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
Al: Even if that's not necessarily
specifically the purpose.
Um, and even if we do wanna make sure
that we're, we're intentionally reaching
out to, to young people, um, so that they
might hear the, the gospel and respond.
Um, but I guess the other, the other
side of, you know, that question about
evangelism and discipleship is that it
puts a, a, a high if young people are.
You know, part of a valid expression
of the, the, the of, of the church.
Um, and if we expect that.
Annemarie: that
Al: Christians, people who are
part of the body of Christ might
also be people that make disciples.
You know, they're disciples that make
disciples, that they evangelize people.
Then I guess that makes it really
important that participants in the youth
ministry as they come to know and love
Jesus, should also be reaching out with
the gospel as a natural expression of
the, of the authentic discipleship that's
occurring, because they're a gathering
of the peoples of God, people of God.
Annemarie: Yes.
I, I can see what you mean.
I think, um,
Al: it's all contested though, right?
Annemarie: Yes, that's right.
There are lots of different views on this.
Yeah.
And I think, um, those, those final few
questions really highlight the value
of thinking it through for yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and of coming to your
own convictions about that.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
We just wanna talk about
that last one though.
Um, the implications of, of Koon's
second, um, observation that age specific
ministries are not an ideal expression.
What's, what are the implications of that?
Al: Yeah.
Well, so if, if kids ministry and youth
ministry are not an ideal expression of
church, I think there's a, there's two
things, two major things that I think of,
and you might have more things, Emery,
but the first thing is, is this, that if
they're not an ideal expression of church,
insofar as they're, they're limited in
who might turn up, we need to understand
that they're not the end result.
Annemarie: Um,
Al: need to, we, you know, they're
not an end, you know, even they're,
they're a good end in themselves.
Um, they, they, we, we can't
think that ministry stops there.
Annemarie: And so
Al: we, we need to have a high view
of intergenerational discipleship.
We need to have a high view of
integration into, you know, other.
Other parts of, and possibly
more permanent parts of,
um, the body of Christ.
So it's not a stopping point.
But the other thing is then that it's
a, um, we want to be looking towards
the heavenly church in terms of, in
terms of the diversity that we have.
We want to be, um, doing what we can
in our youth ministry to be open to
people of other ages, to be open to, you
know, greater expressions of diversity.
The diversity of God's people,
because we recognize that.
You know, youth ministry, children's
ministry is not the ideal.
It's not as good as it could be.
And so we're open to, to what
might make us more ideal.
Annemarie: Mm.
So it makes me think, um, like there
are times when people go, oh, this
family, uh, they've become involved
in the kids club on Friday afternoon.
Um, but I can't seem to shift
them to come to church at all.
And there's, there's tension over that.
And so in one sense, you say, well.
It's okay.
They're hearing, they're
gathering with God's people.
They're hearing God's word.
There is.
Um, that's okay.
But at the same time, yes, it is good
and right to want to see them progress,
to meet with, um, the, like, the more
comprehensive expression of God's people
on a Sunday where all ages are gathered.
Al: For, for two reasons.
One, because.
It, it's a more comprehensive
expression of it, as you say, like
it's a more ideal, potentially, usually
a more ideal expression of church.
Um, but secondly, because of the,
because of the temporary nature
of children's ministry, they will
age out of children's ministry.
And so, you know, we wanna, we
wanna envelop them in, in a, a
more comprehensive and permanent
and, and ongoing expression of,
um, of the people of God, uh, of
the gathering of God's people.
Annemarie: Alright, well my brain is
full and so like, let's wrap this up.
I think a good thing to do at this point
would be to go back to our thinking
formula, um, our thinking framework.
And it might be helpful for you just to
reflect on like what is the, what are the
particular biblical truths that you've
been reminded of or may have freshly, um.
Seen or appreciated in a new light.
Like what are the new aspects of that?
Um, and then what are the implications
for that for you, for your practice?
Um, does it change the way that you
think about one of your ministry
areas or does does it potentially
change something that you are doing?
Thanks for sharing with us, Al.
Al: Yeah, it's been good.