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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
With me today is Carolina Lockwood,
who despite that very English sounding
name and her English sounding voice as
you'll sound, is not really English.
She is joining us from Argentina where
she has been running an equine assisted
practice in the mountain region of
Patagonia, Bariloche for a long, long
time, and has gone through many, many
evolutions doing this in an environment
that many of us, I think, in the West
would find quite challenging, and has
much to share with us on, gosh, how to,
how to do this perhaps a little closer
to nature than a lot of other people in
Europe or North America might be doing it.
So there's many, many dimensions to
Carolina's work, and what's one of the
nicest things about doing this show is
that I get to talk to very interesting
people, some of whom I've known for
a long time, like Carolina, and have
watched go through many evolutions.
So there's so much to
learn from you, Carolina.
Thank you for coming on the
show all the way from Argentina.
Can you tell us who you
are, how you got into this?
Let's start at the beginning.
Carolina Lockwood: Okay.
Well, thank you for
inviting me to start with.
Hi, really honored to be here.
Well, as you said, I
live in, in Argentina.
I was born here.
I've been living in Bariloche since,
which is in Patagonia, since 1974.
Raising a family, doing all sorts
of different jobs, different
things, you know, just life really.
And then I started working with special
needs and art 'cause I'm an artist, too.
So at one point I thought, you know,
what's art got to do with the world
if it's not not gonna help somebody?
You know, it's not just making
a piece for somebody to see.
So anyway, that got me
into special needs and art.
I went to Montana on, Montana,
USA, on a, on an exchange thing,
which was called Partners of
America, and there I learnt a lot.
And then a person from there came
here, and we started huge workshops
with art and with, with handicapped
people, kids, all sorts of things.
Anyway, that went on for about, gosh,
I have no idea actually how long it
took, how long it went on for, but at
least 10 years maybe working with that.
And then I, I s- I studied Touch
for Health, and I studied Brain Gym,
and I did all sorts of things that
helped to connect neurons and neural
pathways and all sorts of things.
And then one day, this is crazy 'cause I
was, I was out in the fields and it had
got a little bit heavy all this artwork.
I do ceramics and sculpture, and
I thought, "I need to switch to
something that's lighter, something
that doesn't involve all this-
carrying heavy things and everything.
I mean, it was really good,
the program, but anyway.
And I had this sort of vision of
doing things with horses and never
knowing that horses was gonna be,
in a way, much heavier than this.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah,
it's, are you sort of thinking,
"I don't wanna carry heavy stuff.
I want the heavy thing to carry me."
Yeah.
And it's got four legs.
Carolina Lockwood: Well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not knowing how much this would entail.
But anyway, that sort of started me off
on that, on this, on this, on this path.
You know, I'd always loved horses
since I was a four-year-old.
I'd had contact with horses, but on-
but through my own sort of ventures.
My family were not horse people
at all And, and I thought, well,
let's learn about horse therapy.
And I'd thought about let's bring them
together, art and horses and, and therapy.
So anyway to cut a long story short,
I started doing different courses.
There was no actual training as such
in Argentina at the time for this.
So I went to Buenos Aires, and I dif- did
different courses in different centers.
And then I went to a, a horse
training a natural horsemanship
training course you would say.
And that really flipped me over.
That, that, that was sort of something
else 'cause there was this guy from
Chile, Paul Walker, who's in Ireland at
the moment, excellent with horses, and
he, he was showing how to train a horse,
how to, what do you say in English?
Domar when youâ¦
It's notâ¦
Well, it would be like break, but
in the natural way, so you're not
actually break- To start or to
Rupert Isaacson: form.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Start, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Domar is almost like
to style, in domar your hair, yeah.
Yeah.
To dress.
Carolina Lockwood: Domar.
Yeah.
And, you know, like, the, the, the
word breaking a horse, which I hate.
Mm.
Anyway, it was complete the- to that.
And I'd never seen anything like that,
and I was really sort of impressed
that in two days he got a horse
that was absolutely wild just coming
to him, putting the saddle on, and
riding him around, like, with nothing.
And, and it wasâ¦
I mean, I even got on the horse.
It was, like, amazing, in two days.
And all the gauchos who
were sort of looking on were
thinking, "Wow, this isn't true."
At first, they're very
skeptical, and thenâ¦
Anyway, that sort of changed
my perspective on, on horses
and what I wanted to be able to
actually transmit and do with them.
So anyway, I, I carried on
these different trainings.
I went to Greece for a couple
of months and did a, a sort
of internship voluntary thing.
And then I was watching a film,
and I heard about Horse Boy.
So I saw the Horse Boy
film, and I thought, wow.
'Cause I, I was doing so many
things that came out in the film,
you know, sort of just getting the
horses and the people to be calm, so
to be able to connect and express.
And so I wrote to you.
And here we are many, many years.
And, and you said, "Yeah, come."
So I did.
So I went to Texas, and well, that started
a whole different, a, a whole different
sort of piece I would say in the story.
'Cause then I had, I had this sort
of- I mean, I'd already bought
my horse, my first horse, myâ¦
'Cause I kept saying to my
brother, "How do I start this?"
And he said, "Well, you
have to start with a horse.
If you don't have a horse,
you're not gonna start anything."
And I'd already had about six horses
and they'd all been stolen and
killed and it was like I thought
I'm never gonna have a horse again.
So anyway, I got my horse, who's still
with me today, a curly who's absolutelyâ¦
I just adore him.
And so I had this one horse and I started
doing sessions with horses from what
I'd learned with, I started off with
the kids that were al- already doing
art therapy with me and brain gym.
So I, I already had this sort of
These people who knew, knew me
and, and wanted to see, okay, let's
see what the horse has to offer.
So it was pretty
intuitive the whole thing.
You know, I had been trained in a way,
and then with you, with you guys, I sort
of found that, that what I was doing had
a sort of much more solid sustainability
than what I was actually doing.
It was like, okay, this is, this is okay.
I'm on the right path here.
So it was really interesting to, to,
to do that and sort of mix what you
were doing with what was I was doing,
and it all sort of grew from there.
So I started off with one horse.
Couple of years later we had two
horses, then three, four, five.
We even had six.
And we started with ⦠I mean, I started
with one girl who was a volunteer, and
then down the road, I don't know, eight
years later maybe, we had a team of
six people working and 10 volunteers
and about 30 kids a week coming.
It was huge.
I mean, it was huge.
I didn't even realize it
was huge at the moment.
But now when I think of it, it was,
it was, it was huge in the way that
it was big to sustain all that.
So and it was really interesting.
It was a, it was a different way for
people to actually do this kind of work
with horses, 'cause it wasn't just,
you know, have the horse saddled, get
on and, and do a little ride around.
Although lots of times that
does happen, but there was all
the rest that was thrown in.
You know, what, what you do, what
I was doing on top of it, and
what we learned together and,
and it, and it was really good.
So people, people loved it.
People thrived on it.
The, you know, the people that k-
that were the team loved it too.
They said, "This is so different
from what, you know, what
we can see in other places."
So that's basically how that all started.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And now I know that now you've
sort of also evolved into you were
always doing coaching with horses
as well, and now healing through
horses for people and for horses.
So I'm gonna want you to go there, but
right now I just wanna dial back two, two
obvious questions, which I know are the
questions that anyone who was listening
in the last few minutes will have.
The first one what was the name
again of the bloke who's now in
Ireland who you met from Chile?
Carolina Lockwood: Paul Walker
Rupert Isaacson: Paul Walker Paul
Walker And is he Irish or is he
English or is he, where's he from?
Carolina Lockwood: He's from Chile.
His father was English.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Carolina Lockwood: Paul passed
away about two years ago.
So I'm gonna- And Paul, yeah,
at the moment he's not working
with horses, but he's training
Border Collie dogs for sheeps.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sheeps.
Sorry.
So he's worth looking into.
I'm always, I'm always, you know,
intrigued by whose people, who people's
mentors are because they're- Yeah,
Carolina Lockwood: he's-
Rupert Isaacson: worth checking
out ⦠he's yeah, he's on
Carolina Lockwood: Facebook, so
you can- Okay ⦠find him there.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I shall look him up.
Now, the second question is, is,
is the stories attached, and I
remember you talking to me about
this when you first came to Texas.
You say, "Oh, it's so
heartbreaking, Rupert.
You know, my horses get stolen, killed."
I remember you even saying eaten.
You know?
And, and- Yeah ⦠I was going, "Wow."
Now, as you know, my background is
partly African, and that's the kind
of thing you'd expect to hear down
in- Yeah ⦠some parts of Africa.
Why were horses getting stolen?
Why were they getting killed?
Talk us through that because we, we
think, we think of Argentina as a very
horse-friendly equestrian culture.
As you, you mentioned the gauchos.
We know that racing is huge.
Polo comes.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
So, you know, presumably not
all of those horses are getting
stolen and eaten and killed.
But you were having this problem
up in the mountains where you are.
Talk us through this.
Why?
What was going on?
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, well, yeah,
there's, there's various things here.
There's a culture of, like you
say, this horse world which
is really big in Argentina.
Really big.
And then, and then there's this part
of social differences, I would say.
So p- horses get stolen all over
Argentina, not o- not only here.
And usually they steal them to eat them.
To eat them or to sell the meat.
Yeah, that's what usually happens.
And when they- Who is
Rupert Isaacson: they?
Who are the people who are doing this?
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, well, it's
difficult to say, but I would say,
ugh, gosh, it's so difficult this,
'cause it's not, I wouldn't say it's
people who are hungry, 'cause I think
hungry people would go a different way.
Mm.
It's, it's people have
different values, I would say.
You know, that they don't
think of a horse, they just
think of it as like a cow.
"Okay, let's get a cow and, and eat it."
I mean, where, which happens so often.
But in another way, it, or at least,
I mean, I can speak from where I
live, which is obviously different
to other parts of Argentina.
We have different social
realities in small places.
So in Bariloche where I live, you
have on one side of the mountain, I
mean, in literally you have sort of,
you know, the buoyant Bariloche with
lots of differences too, but then on
the other side you have a really poor,
poor in, in the sense of, of, of maybe
not having jobs, maybe not having, you
know, work to, to do or things to eat.
And so, I mean, th- that's huge the
amount of people, and not everybody's
gonna steal a horse obviously.
So you, I, I can't generalize.
But yes, there are lots of groups
and people who do, and when I
found out when they stole two of
our horses at the time, that the
police knew exactly who they were.
They were all tied up.
You know, everybody protects everybody.
There were clandestine, I think
you say it like that in English-
Mm-hmm ⦠meat, like meat factories
where they, where they- Okay ⦠you
know, cut the meat and they sell it.
Rupert Isaacson: And they sell it to?
Carolina Lockwood: They sell it to other
people in that sort of area usually.
They, they won't-
Rupert Isaacson: So there's
organization behind this.
It's effectively organized crime.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
But n- yeah, yeah, and not always.
Not always.
So I mean, just near my, where I
live, about three kilometers, there's
a, there's an area which is all
land that was occupied, and probably
90% of it is fine, but a 10% of
the people there are not fine, and
they are famous for getting horses.
And, and, and you know, I'm really
careful as who to comes into my spot
and who sees how the horses live and
where they live, 'cause I've gone
through this so many times that I
said I'm not gonna have a horse again.
And then I, well, now I live in
a different area of Bariloche,
because the other house where I
had all these horses was literally
the other side of the mountain, so
people would come over the mountain.
I mean, I, to this extent, once I
had a horse tied up with a chain
to the tree, and they cut the tree.
You know, it was like, yeah.
And some I found, and some
unfortunately I didn't.
So-
Rupert Isaacson: When you found
them, how did you find them?
Carolina Lockwood: I
didn't actually see them.
I was told that they'd been,
that they'd been, that they found
the head in a something and-
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, okay.
You didn't find the live animal again?
Carolina Lockwood: I found one
live animal 'cause, because he was
the eldest and he was really thin.
He was my son's horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Carolina Lockwood: We gave it bait,
so he must have been about, my
son must have been about 13 this.
And, and they took him
and another mare I had.
They took them both, and so
I mean, I, w- by then we knew
exactly where to start looking.
I mean, we did.
So we went with the police
'cause they're really, they're
really heavy people, these.
They could be armed.
Yeah.
So off we went, and we found the old one
tied to a tree in a, in a, an area which
is the university, and it's reallyâ¦
And now it's much more grown up, but
this, we're talking about 20 years ago.
No, more.
Gosh.
We're talking about 1990, so, wow.
Yeah, 30 years ago, 40.
Mm.
Something like that.
It was much more "Descampado"
we say here, which is much more
sort of not, not constructed.
It was just the university
and lots of forest and stuff.
And we found him tied there, and
obviously they left him, and we
found him and he was, he was whining.
Wh- whining?
Whining?
Whining?
Whining, yeah.
Whining, wanting his mate.
And obviously they left him
'cause there was no meat.
He was too thin.
He was old.
So anyway, then we loaded him onto a
truck and I, I spoke to some friends
who had a, a farm at that time, and I
said, "Please, can you take this horse?"
And they did, and he died there.
I didn't bring him back.
Mm.
Yeah.
It was just, I just
couldn't bear it anymore.
So- Y-
Rupert Isaacson: but what's interesting
to me about this is that, you know, well,
A, it was very brave of you to go into
those areas because, you know, there
could have been, I presume, reprisals.
Maybe not- Yeah ⦠on the day that
you go in there with the police, but
then maybe they come over the mountain
later and burn your house, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Were you, were you not afraid of that?
Carolina Lockwood: I was, but
I went with my ex-husband.
I didn't go my own own.
Mm.
And I, I can't remember if the
police were with us at that point.
I don't think so, 'cause at theâ¦
Because also you say, you know,
you go to the police and usually
the police are friends with the
guys who are taking the horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: So, yeah, I
mean, that, that literally happens.
And, and I, you knowâ¦
Yeah, but you're, you are afraid, yeah.
And also the reprisals, you know.
Once I found, once- The first
horse that they took, we found him.
Found him tied up on the main road at sort
of the back part and, and, and we went and
we said to this guy, "That's our horse."
He said, "Oh, yes, I found him
walking around, so I tied him up."
This was about 20 kilometers from
where I live, so that wasn't happening.
So he gave it back, but I mean, that
was, that was lucky for that horse.
But usually it wasn't that lucky.
I mean, they, they have a really
quick way of covering up the tracks.
Usually it happens on a rainy day when,
or snowing, when the tracks get covered.
I mean, and, you know, usually in
the winter when it gets dark early.
The, yeah.
And then-
Rupert Isaacson: Right Okay.
So let's- Well, but- Le- so, sorry,
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Please go on.
Carolina Lockwood: No, just
a s- short extra thing.
Not a horse of mine, but a, another
equine therapy group that was here
about, yeah, very near this area
that I'm telling you that's near me.
They had this beautiful mare who was
pregnant actually, and they had her in
a, in a hipódromo, which is like a place
where they do races and stuff here.
Very small, but anyway.
And they stole her from
there, and they found her.
They found her quartered up.
So it was like, you know,
they, no scruples at all.
It doesn't matter if it's
a horse therapy horse.
It doesn't matter.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so- Yeah ⦠the
gauchos who are relying on
their horses to do their work,
Yeah ⦠racehorse people polo people,
if they're all dealing with this-
Yeah ⦠how do they stay in business?
Carolina Lockwood: How do they?
Rupert Isaacson: Stay in business.
I mean, if, if you, if
you are- Yeah, the, the-
potentially gonna lose your
herd, you know, any moment.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, the gauchos
usually don't have their horses stolen
because the, the people who would steal
a horse know that the gaucho would go
after them with a knife and kill them.
So it was, they, you know, they, they know
who they mess with and who they don't.
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
Carolina Lockwood: And the same, and
the same goes for the polo industry.
I mean, polo horses who are, you know,
thousands and I don't know how many
dollars worth, they're not gonna be out
in a field just, you know, pasturing.
They're gonna be in boxes,
and they're gonna have a
completely different security.
It's not gonna happen.
Yeah.
But then there are all sorts of
equine therapy centers and, and
people who just have horses as,
as, you know, just to have a horse.
Those are the ones that get stolen, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But obviously
that's what anyone who's gonna
be in the equine assisted world
is gonna be having to deal with.
And- Yeah, yeah ⦠I, I remember when
you told me this thinking, "Well, gosh,
you know, w- if, if they are stealing them
from the campo, if they're stealing them
from the, the field," and that meaning-
Yeah ⦠the wild mountainside where the
horses are being turned out on which,
you know, great in some ways, but not
great if people are gonna come eat them.
Then why, why turn them out there?
Why not just have them living-
Yeah ⦠in boxes right around the house?
Carolina Lockwood: Something
wasn't understood there.
They, they won't, they won't
steal them from a campo
usually because that's too big.
They'll steal them from
places that are near cities.
Yeah.
So Bariloche is, like, the perfect place
'cause I mean, there's the city, but
then there's a huge amount of, of- Yeah
nature and fields and mountains and
things and p- where ⦠Just last month
in Bolson, which is a, a town, it's
about 80 kilometer from here, this
beautiful white horse for equine therapy
was stolen and, and they found him.
They found him dead.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Carolina Lockwood: Cut up.
And, and so it's the same.
It's near a center.
It's not a
I mean, my horse is out
in the field on their own.
I mean, always with somebody
l- looking after that farm.
They couldn't be on their own.
No.
Somebody who rides around every day and
sees the cattle and sees the horses.
They're much safer there
than they are here.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Carolina Lockwood: Much.
Rupert Isaacson: How did ⦠That
was gonna be my question.
I- so at a certain point, things clearly
stabilized, otherwise you wouldn't
have been able to run a program.
Yeah ⦠how did you end up
being able to stabilize it?
How did you find the
s- necessary security?
Carolina Lockwood: Well, yeah, I
moved to where I live now, which
is- Mm-hmm ⦠not the mountain.
The, I mean, this horse that I was telling
you that was stolen from the polo, it's
very near here, so it could happen.
But I think that the- I don't know,
it's like a sort of protection.
There's a, the, in this open
field that I have which is next
to my house, which can'tâ¦
I don't know how big it is.
It must be about 10 hectar-
hectares or something like that.
Not bigger.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
But the- So that's 20, 30 acres.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, probably.
S- some of it's lots of trees, but
anyway, when I started this, the guy
who lives the other side of the field
is a vet, and he was doing a lot with
horses, and so were his daughters,
and they had all their horses in the
field, and he was offering the field
for pasture for other people, which
is a bit crazy because it wasn't his.
But anyway, that's a thing aside.
But all the people who would potentially
have been able to come in and take a
horse, they knew him, and they knew
they didn't mess with him either.
So, 'cause he knew everybody.
So I think in that way, I don't
know, I mean, this is just thinking.
It's like I've had a, a
protection from another source.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Carolina Lockwood: But, you know, it's,
it's something I think about all the time.
Just the day before yesterday, it was
raining solid, not sunny like it is today,
and I took the two horses that are here
to a, to a little field which is across
this marshland, and it was, I don't
know, 7:00, and they hadn't come back.
And I thought, "Oh, my God, where are,"
you know, "They've, they've taken them.
They've got them."
I mean, my heart just jumps to my throat.
It does.
And they weren't.
They were there.
They were fine.
But it's something that, that's
permanently, yeah, there.
Rupert Isaacson: So this is really
interesting because I think, I think
anyone listening to this, you know- It's
unlikely that most of the people who are
listening to or watching this are dealing
with that anxiety, that particular one.
You know, in the UK, for example anyone
who keeps horses close to cities knows
that their horses are at risk from being
either sexually abused or mutilated.
There is unfortunately a
weird sickness in the British.
Really?
Yeah.
So people living sometimes in
liminal areas on the edges of
towns, this is a thing, right?
And then shooting at them,
gouging an eye, you know, worse.
And then not all the time, but enough
that people have to think about this.
I was doing a training in a large
equine therapy place outside Bristol,
which backs sort of onto Bristol.
Beautiful hills, beautiful countryside,
but the guy, you know, who was the
sort of stable manager said, "Yeah,
Roo, we get everything into the box at
night, and we lock them up, and weâ¦
There's a big door, and no one can getâ¦"
You know, and in other areas, of
course, people deal with tack theft.
And Ireland, you know, sometimes is
a little bit prone to horse theft.
England, a little bit sometimes.
But, you know, it's not by any means
a story that you're hearing all the
time from, you know, therapy centers.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And certainly not
horses being taken for slaughter
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
I just want to say it doesn't
happen every day, this.
Yeah.
You know, it's happened to m-
enough to be really wary, you know?
I know people who it's never
happened to, but- Exactly ⦠for
me, you know, I lost five horses.
It, it's too much.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So for me- And just the fact that you
we- you were having to deal with that
anxiety at the same time as trying
to put together a credible program,
I think f- for a lot of people, if
they lost one horse or even just- Yeah
knew that they were living under
the threat of that kind of thing-
Yeah ⦠it would be too much for them.
And so the fact that you
managed to persevere really
speaks to your dedication.
Carolina Lockwood: Yep
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and I think we just need
to sort of take our hats off to you in
respect coming from- Yeah ⦠working
in more secure environments that, you
know, it just shows that you should
never take for granted what you have.
So all the, all of you who are listening
and watching, I want you to go out and say
thank you to the area that you are in to
the spirits of that area for affording you
a certain security where you don't even
have to think about the kind of security
problems that, say, Carolina has to think
about, while at the same time trying to
deliver, you know, healing for people.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
It's been, what, 30 years, touch wood-
Yeah ⦠that I haven't had a horse
stolen, but it, it has happened to me.
I'm not, you know, I'm notâ¦
But it happens all around,
but not every day, but it is
something that's there, you know?
Yeah.
I don't want people think, you know,
that we have to be out with guns every
day in the garden, 'cause we don't.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Carolina Lockwood: But,
but it is a possibility.
Yeah, it definitely is.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
And as you say, if, if just not seeing
your horses for half, you know, part of
an afternoon in a massive pasture means
that that's- Yeah ⦠you know, where
your mind goes, well, it, it goes there
because it's been the reality before.
Yeah.
And it's, it's- Yeah
wonderful if oneâ¦
It's always a good day if you don't
have to worry about your horse being
nicked and k- and slaughtered, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, it's a good day if
you're not worried about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this, y- you're, you're dealing with-
A rough and difficult situation as you're
getting your, your practice together.
And interestingly, I'm, I'm hearing
also in your story, you're not,
you know, a lifelong horsewoman, so
you're, you're also learning horses
as you go, to a certain degree.
And learning how to create reliable
but also feeling good in their minds
and bodies, not just quiet therapy
horses for your clients without- Mm
you know, 30 years of having grown
up with horses under your belt.
What do you think were the, if you break
it down, everyone evolves their own
system, everyone evolves their own way of
sort of ensuring that the horse is good
in the body, that the horse is good in the
mind, that the horse is good in the heart.
You learned from a number
of people us included.
What did you sort of ended up, end up with
as your sort of one, two, three structure?
Carolina Lockwood: Gosh, I don't know.
I've never thought about
it- Mm ⦠quite like that.
I really haven't.
Rupert Isaacson: I know.
Until someone asks you, it's often- Yeah.
So for example- Yeah ⦠let,
let me, let me help you.
So, if it's Horse Boy.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Us.
Then as you know- Yeah ⦠it's
about we like our horses
to live outside, if we can.
We like our horses to live in herds.
We like our horses to have
access to forage, free forage.
We- Yeah ⦠make sure that our
horses are physically fit, so
they get trail ridden a lot.
We make sure that the
horses have top line.
They get lunged a lot for top line.
We make sure that the horses are worked in
hand a lot so that they have balance, so
that they have collection, and yoga, and
just feel kind of good in their bodies.
And then we train them in specific
techniques, you know, like a canter
in place and that sort of thing
so they can deliver oxytocin.
But we can't even think about
doing something like that unless
those other things are all in
place as building blocks, right?
W- y- you know, we evolved into
that because we realized, oh,
we need horses that can collect
enough to produce oxytocin.
So what does a horse need
to have as a platform?
It starts with the living
outside with their friends.
It starts with the free forage.
It starts with the respect
for what they need.
Then it starts with the fitness.
Then, then you have to go to the
muscle building, then you have to
go to the suppling, then youâ¦
But each one of those steps means
nothing without the steps before
it, if you know what I mean.
Yeah.
I, I'm, I'm always curious to
know how people do it, you know?
So, so, so yeah, what's
been your, your structure?
Carolina Lockwood: Well, well I think
the structure comes a lot from, from all
these things that we were talking about.
You know, this anxiety of
horses being stolen and stuff.
So when I started this next herd,
it was like they have to have a
place that they can roam around free
and they don't have to be tied up.
The- that has to be number one.
So, and, and they have to be happy.
They have to be happy that they
have, you know, their friends and
they can come and go, and they have
to trust me, and me trust them 100%.
Because as you know, and I, I mean
you've just said it too, you know,
I'm not a horse woman from day one,
although I've always loved them, and
I've never got to the level that you
have at Horse Boy, and I don't think
I ever will, because it hasn't been,
for me, the, the number one priority.
The, the, it'sâ¦
I mean, I can see it as a priority, and
I've always said I love it and everything,
but I've never got there actually.
I mean, I've, I've done a lot, I think.
I've done a lot, but I haven't got
to all this, you know, really top
line top line in, in, in s- true
sense of the word, you know- Yeah.
I-
training and stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Carolina Lockwood: But yeah, I've,
I've- I've come to, to see that what I
was looking for was a horse coming in a
natural way that would come to me without
having me to actually do that much.
I don't know if that makes sense.
And I think
Rupert Isaacson: everything- G- g- yeah,
can you explain that a little more?
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Well, I think it started with Paul
Walker in this round pen or what he
showed us, and then I went on to learn
more with him of how, how you can
connect with a horse without putting
anything on him, and how he will come
and he will respond when he, he or she
obviously, feels secure in your presence.
So I mean, all your horses are
completely secure in, in yourâ¦
But I'm not s- I'm not comparing anything,
I'm just saying what I was looking
for- Mm ⦠was that, was a horse that
wasn't just a horse that was gonna be
put a saddle on, like what, what I used
to do, and go out for a trail ride.
It was gonna be- Yeah
a lot more than that.
It was gonna be a horse that could, could
come freely, who could see body movement,
body language, who could come and go.
I mean, it was like a
sort of dance in a way.
Mm-hmm.
So that wasâ¦
It was from that basis because then
I could see, 'cause I could see a
similarity too with autistic people
and horses in the way that theyâ¦
And we can go into that later,
but they do have, for me at,
at least, some similarities.
So I was looking at horses
in, in all ways that wouldn't
produce any stress to their life.
It was like Temple Grandin when she s-
she think, does this thing for the cows,
that she doesn't want to have stress
when they're gonna be slaughtered.
W- I mean, not in that- Right ⦠not
in that sense, but, but I
wanted a horse- I understand.
Yeah ⦠yeah.
And I, I was thinking today, it was
funny you asked this, 'cause I was
thinking today when I was driving home
when I used to take them to another
farm, the, the guy who used to run
it died a few years ago, and, and the
horses, you know, I would go and I
would say, "Don't round them up for me.
I wanna go out and find
them wherever they are."
It was 4,000 acres, so
they could be anywhere.
Mm-hmm.
But I b- knew where they
would be, and he said, "Okay."
So nobody used to round them up,
and then I would call them and they,
they would used to come galloping.
And once we filmed it, and various
times, we filmed it- And I showed it
to him, and he said, "I don't know
what you're doing with your horses,
but you must be doing something right."
'Cause I mean, th- there was these
six horses galloping down the mountain
and coming to, to us, to, to me.
It was likeâ¦
And at the moment, at the camp that
they're in I was just talking to the guy
who's in charge of the camp at the moment,
and I left three there, and he rang me-
Rupert Isaacson: Camp
meaning large area of- Yeah
of, of pasturage, right?
Yeah.
3,000
Carolina Lockwood: acres I think.
Yeah.
3,000 hectares it is.
And he was saying yesterday,
'cause he called, 'cause it's
been snowing and raining, "Do you
want me to give them extra grass?"
And I said, "Yes, please do,
because I can't get there in my car
'cause of the mud and everything."
And he said, "Your horses are
something else because they see
us and they run a mile, but you
come and they come galloping."
And it was like, okay.
So it's the same sort of thing.
So I don't know what I've done actually
and it, you know, but, but I think that's
where I was aiming all the time s- for
horses to want to be with the people,
and with the kids, and with the, what I'm
doing now, that the horses can choose.
So that's probably the structure
that, which is a non-structure
structure if you like.
I
Rupert Isaacson: don't know.
No, absolutely.
It, it makes sense.
And then of course when you are, a family
comes, you know, and their child, let's
say it's a mounted session or they're
gon- the child is gonna work with a
horse in whatever way, then of course
you do need your horse there, and you
do need your horse to, that you need to
be able to say to your horse, "Okay, now
listen, you know, for this time period,
I need you to be my colleague here.
So yes, you have agency.
Yes, you can come and go, but
not in this 45 minutes please."
So talk to us about the
transition from that kind of free
roaming- Yeah ⦠thing to that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Well, that's when,
when I started the horse therapy,
there wasn't free, free roaming
with the horses with the kids.
I mean, that didn't happen.
They always had, you know, either a halter
or a bridle if they're riding or whatever.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Carolina Lockwood: They
weren't free around.
I mean, we'd, we'd have maybe three
horses outside a pen and, and the horse
that was actually with the kid in.
I mean, security was number one always.
Mm-hmm.
So that was fine, and, you know,
safety, yes, okay, good, fine.
But I was feeling that the horse
wasn't being able to show exactly
what he was because the, the,
the child or the adult, doesn't
matter, on the horse was one energy.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Carolina Lockwood: The side workers
were two more energies, and sometimes
even a leader was another energy.
So I was thinking, "Who's
the horse responding to?"
I mean, we know, everybody knows it's
great and all that we get for it, and
sometimes you don't have side workers
and you just have back riding, and that's
good, perfect, but sometimes you do.
And Iâ¦
It was sort of like making
a noise in- inside of me.
Like, "Okay, this is
great, but is the horseâ¦
I mean, if the horse was on his own
with nothing, would he be doing this?"
Probably not.
So, so I think that was the beginning
of the end of, of this program.
It was like, in a way, I wanted to respect
the horse for all that he wanted or, or
what, or what I was imagining, because I
don't know exactly what the horse wanted.
And, and in no way was the horse
showing signs of being badly treated.
Yes, sometimes they looked a little
bit bored, which was worrying me.
And then, and then one, well, two horses
actually, one was my mistake completely.
It was the biggest horse that we have
had, and, and I was putting people
that were too heavy on him, and I
realized that that was not good for him.
So I spoke to the family and I said,
"I'm sorry, but your kid or your
son can't ride this horse because
it, the horse can't take him.
I'm
Rupert Isaacson: sorry."
Carolina Lockwood: And they were a little
bit upset, but I thought, "Well, no."
And then that, you know, was
like, okay, I've got toâ¦
Number one, the horse has to be
100% cared for because it's no
good for a huge guy getting on a
horse if the horse is not good.
And then another thing that started
happening, which was really- It w-
it was really eye-opening for me.
W- we have this horse called
People, who at the moment is
with me now in the winter here.
Amazing horse.
I mean, gentle as gentleâ¦
I've got pictures with him with kids and,
you know, they're holding his mouth and
he's doing like this, and he's just the
be- it's a horse that you could put a
two-year-old on and say, "Go," and you'd
be fine, 'cause he's not gon- I mean,
I know, unless, I don't know, maybe I
don't know 100%, but 99 that it's okay.
Anyway, that horse suddenly started
biting the person that was beside
him getting the person on him, or
the person that was leading him.
Turning around and literally tryingâ¦
I mean, he's done it
to me, trying to bite.
I mean, he doesn't actually bite
because you, you stop, but you've gotâ¦
If you're notâ¦
You can't correct him
when you've got a kid on.
And there was something there that,
okay, something's going on here.
And it wasn't, it wasn't a back problem,
problem, because if I got on him to just
ride him normally, that didn't happen.
It was like he didn't want
to be led around anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's- He was
just saying, "I'm done with this."
Carolina Lockwood: I'm done with this.
And it, it, the amazing thing
is it came at the same time
that I was done with it, too.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Carolina Lockwood: So it's likeâ¦
Yeah, very.
Very.
And even today, you know, if my grandkid
comes and, and I, you know, I, I put
her on him, he turns round sort of
saying, "We're not doing this anymore."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: And but, but
he's fine if I get on and ride him.
Hisâ¦
Yeah, it is.
It's in-
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I guess
it shows that, that any animal,
any w- and which includes us, we're
animals- Yeah ⦠we all need to grow.
We all need variety.
We all need- Yeah ⦠purpose.
We all need- But we do need growth.
We need, you know, we don't
want to feel we're stagnant.
And-
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: we're, I think we're
all happy, humans, horses, dogs, we're
actually all happy being in service.
What we don't want to be is in servitude.
Yeah ⦠we, we want to have
some agency in that service.
So one of the things which I learned
a lot with Horse Boy, because we rely
so much on the goodwill of our horses
with some of the really difficult kids
that we've had where I will have to
take my hands off the reins completely
if I'm up there with the child, or I
need to trust that this horse is solid.
And touch wood, touch wood, we never
had accidents because as you know we're
so extraordinarily obsessive about the
preparation we put into our horses, but
for a very good reason, because we are
going to do battle with human unhappiness.
And sometimes, you know, that's
going to present one with
situations that are not orthodox.
And I often find that it's in those
situations that the horses really shine,
because then they have this sense of,
"Oh, I do have, I have agency here, but I
choose- Right ⦠to look after your ass
because there's precious cargo up here."
Yeah ⦠and I've never known
one of our horses, what we
say in England, take the piss.
However, I'm very, like, I'm very
careful to look for any sign of
sourness long before a horse would,
say, turn its head and show its teeth,
because you- Yeah ⦠see this a lot,
a lot, a lot in therapeutic riding
places, horses biting the handlers.
They often won't do it to the kid
or the client, but they'll often
do it to the, to the handler.
And it's a clear, loud and clear thing
saying, "I don't want to be doing this."
But what we found was that
the trick is in rotation.
So a little bit, i- if you think
of, say, a horse in therapy work
is really a special forces horse.
You know, how long can they spend on
that front line without burning out?
You've got to rotate them out.
So we never do more than a certain
number of sessions with any one horse,
and then that horse will go out and
do other things for half a week.
So that by the time we bring them
back with the clients, the horse
is like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm good.
Yeah, let's, let's go."
But I, I learned this early with Betsy
in the very, very early days before there
was Horse Boy, before anything, that
there were certain times I think I only
remember like three times, but three
times she was like, "No, not today."
And those three times I didn't listen,
and there was a bit of a negative outcome.
And I learned more about horsemanship,
oddly enough, through h- those reactions
of hers, and then thinking, "Okay, how
do I not trespass upon Betsy's goodwill?"
And I realized that it was about,
it was all about resting, variety,
going off and doing other,
taking a break coming back later.
And I said, "Well, that makes sense.
That would be me."
But also, it's interesting you say,
"Well, do, do horses wanna do it?"
As you say, some, 'cause some people
say, "Do horses even wanna be ridden?"
And then you say, oh, well, your
horse, who's now sour with the therapy
work, still wants to be ridden by you.
So in my experience, horses actually
do enjoy being ridden, provided it's
not an unpleasant experience for them.
And they do like the, to, to
meet the challenge of a job in
just the same way that we do.
They love to work cows.
They love the therapy work.
They, they love to jump if, if
it's, if, if, if it's right.
And if it's not right- Mm ⦠they don't.
And-
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: how is it
right and how is it not right?
The only way one can know this is by
the clear signals the horses give,
give us, and putting certain structures
in place like we are just not gonna
do too many sessions with each horse.
We are always gonna make
sure that they get a break.
We are always gonna make
sure that X, Y, and Z.
But I think what you're talking about
there, interestingly, could be, you
know, horses being mirrors and all that,
possibly less equine burnout and possibly
human burnout reflected in the horse.
I'm, I'm saying- Mm
I'm not, I'm not saying that is,
I'm, I'm, I'm asking the question.
Could- But I, I'm speculating-
Yeah ⦠let's say that.
Yeah.
Because I've, I've seen
this happen many times.
Let's talk about that.
So you, you ran this
program for, for many years.
Yeah.
And y- you weren't just
doing it with purely horses.
You were always mixing art and
ceramics and amazingly you know, I,
I re- I remember all the photographs
and, and, and videos that would come
through to us of, of the amazing work
you were doing, and it really, really
was amazing work, and I could see the
healing happening in these families.
And at the same time as doing that,
you're up there on the mountain.
You're a one-man show.
You're, you're, you're putting all
this together, and you're worried about
people stealing and eating your horses.
Yeah, not surprising
that you might burn out.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah ⦠in retrospect,
do you feel- If you had come at it from
a different cultural perspective in which
burnout was allowed, 'cause, you know,
you and I are old school, and when we were
growing up, burnout just, you know, no.
No, you don't, you don't burn out.
Yeah.
You keep going, always, you know.
Yeah.
But sometimes to the detriment
of yourself and the project.
Do you think that if you hadâ¦
There's that structure word again.
If you had structured in the breaks
and pauses for you and your horses
that you might not have burned out?
And do you even think that perhaps you,
your burnout might only be temporary,
and you might go back to this again
in some other way later when- I
Carolina Lockwood: don't know
⦠Rupert Isaacson: your nervous
system has done what it needs to do?
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Carolina Lockwood: Yeah,
interesting question.
I think gosh, the, the horses just, just
to sort of get in context, they wereâ¦
We only worked twice a week-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Carolina Lockwood: with the horses.
And no horse did more than, I
don't know, three sessions a day
maybe- Mm-hmm ⦠in those two.
So there wasn't really a, a hugeâ¦
And sometimes less, maybe one, you know.
Mm-hmm.
We had the three main horses took
the brunt of everything 'cause
the other- Yeah ⦠two much.
So we hadâ¦
And then we had another one who died.
He did a lot too.
But anyway, this horse,
it wasn't like he wasâ¦
I think, I think he was bored, and I
think maybe that was- Yeah ⦠my f-
fault or whatever you like to call
it, of not being able to give him more
different things to do, you know, on the
days off, 'cause they were just pasture.
Or maybe, yeah, he'd go to the
river and we'd have a ride or we'd,
you know, have fun with them all.
But he was the least, he was the
least sort of energetic of the horses.
He's a horse who's just sort of, "Okay."
Now actually he's coming into his
own, 'cause I'm giving him such
special attention that he's comingâ¦
He's sort of rising up,
which is interesting too.
He was a horse that used to belong
to a guy on an island in the lake,
and the guy died, and he was then
shipped to different, different places.
And anyway, I think he, he sort of
needed a little bit of TLC more.
And he,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah- Yeah.
He ne- maybe he needed to
be somebody's pony again.
Carolina Lockwood: Exactly.
Exactly.
And the, and the, the
strain, the funny thingâ¦
Well, not funny.
Funny, peculiar my dad would say thing,
was that he was given to, to me because
he was abandoned by these other centers.
Anyway, long story.
And I said, "Gosh, I don't know
really if I want another horse."
And I had these two girls
working with me and I said,
"We've been offered this horse.
He's worked in therapy before.
Do you want to sort of
adopt him, have him here?
But the conditions are that
you take care of him 100%.
You train him, you bomb-proof
him, you do this, you do that,
you take him, you have fun," blah.
"Oh, yes, yes, yes."
Well, they never did a thing literally.
I mean, I hope they don't hear this.
But anyway.
I
don't think they will.
They did, they did very little.
It's not a thing.
And, and so in the end
I said, "You know what?
This horse is coming
back to the foundation.
It's not yours anymore 'cause thatâ¦"
And, and he wasn't a, a, a person's pony.
I think, I think maybe that's
the crux of the, of the matter.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But,
Carolina Lockwood: but now-
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead, sorry.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Yeah.
So I don't know if my burnout
was a bit of- Doing a one-man
show in lots of things.
I, you know, had people helping and
everything, but I was sort of the-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Carolina Lockwood: like manager,
if you like to say it that way.
And then, you know, people were
rebelling 'cause they wanted to be
horizontal and they didn't want a leader.
And I said, "But somebody has to be
the leader, and this is my space."
And you know, and I, I just,
I, I don't know, I was getting
older, my back was hurting.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Carolina Lockwood: And I,
but I need something calmer.
I need something where I can just be
with the people and the horses and not
have to deal with all this structure,
with this, you know, the, the bills- Yeah
the debt, the, the invoices, the
families- That's, yeah ⦠all, well,
you know what I'm talking about.
It's huge.
I,
Rupert Isaacson: I think every
single person listening to
this show will go, "Uh-huh."
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: And I,
it's not that I gave up.
I switched.
And, and- Yeah ⦠you know, it took a,
it took a, it took a really hard decision
inside to say, "Okay, this is done."
And I tried to carry it on for a season
with one of the girls who used to work
for us, and, and it didn't work out.
And then I thought, "I'm done.
I'm done."
Mm.
"I'm done withâ¦"
And I, and I'm gonna go onto the next
stage, and I feel and I felt, and I
still feel, that sometimes you have to
close one stage for another to open.
So when you ask if you hadn't burnt
out, would you go back to this?
No, I doubt it very much.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: You know, I can, I
can, I can explain to people how to do it.
In, in fact, I've, I've sort of trained
a, a lady in Chile, the one I talked
to you about, and she started her own
place, and she's doing really well.
I mean, not up to your standards,
but she's still doing really well.
And you know, I can do that sort
of thing, but I wouldn't run a
place like that again, at least not
Rupert Isaacson: in the- Right, but,
but what I, what I mean by coming
back to it is ex- i- is exactly that.
I'm not talking those extremes.
And because you and I both know that
you actually haven't really stopped.
You've, you've, as in your own
words from just a couple of
minutes ago, you've switched now.
And you, you're, you're now
continuing to do equine-assisted work.
It's just not in that- intensive way.
Gotcha.
And I think that everybody does have
a certain time limit on that, frankly.
You know, I myself I don't think
would want to go back to running the
type of intensive program we ran at
New Trails when we came to, in Texas.
Then we came to, to Tex- to Germany,
and we changed how we were running.
And I did much less work that was sort
of center-based, and I did much more
work where I'd say to families, "Meet
me in this car park in the forest.
Meet me in this-" Wow ⦠"playground,
and I'm gonna- Wow ⦠I'm gonna meet
you and your kid there, and we're
gonna go out into the forest, or
we're gonna start in this playground."
And I, I, I, and I found that
that was much more joyful.
Great.
And then it developed again to
where we had groups from the local
international school, where all
manner of different things from,
from, you know, very low cognition
right up to sort of problem geniuses.
And doing something much more nature-based
in which the horse was there and available
usually accompanying us with a saddle on
because, but usually more than by the time
the kids were tired from running around
in the forest, then they would take turns.
We'd have one or two horses riding
home, and then we'd get our oxytocin
effects going, and sometimes we'd
ride with them or sometimes we'd
walk next to them or, you know.
And we'd work the horses in hand and give
them a little piaffe and a little passage.
But the majority of what we were
doing was wading in the creek
and chasing songbirds to find out
what they were and, you know, Yeah
identifying trees, so in
French or whatever, or German.
So it, it evolved, it evolved, it evolved.
And now ob- obviously I
train a lot of people.
And that's one of the things which
we are, as you, you know, with Horse
Boy Movement Method, it's, it's
not about saying, "There is this
rigid thing that you have to do."
Apart from the basic thing of learning
how to really follow the child's interests
and a certain base horse welfare.
Yeah.
These are really just toolkits that
we give to people and say, "Use these
toolkits in the way that seems right
for you and this person in, in, in this
way because you need that creativity,
and anyway, we don't know your context."
And we find that that prevents burnout.
But running centers, it's tough, and I
think everybody has a certain time limit.
So, so tell, so you say you've switched.
Tell us how you've switched.
What have you switched to?
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Well, I've switched, I switched
starting with the coaching.
I, I trained in Colorado.
The, the times that I went to you
in Texas, I usually added on a
bit and went there too and sort
of trained there And where did
Rupert Isaacson: you go in Colorado?
What were you learning?
Who did you learn from?
Carolina Lockwood: I
learned from Kathy Pike.
She'd learned with Linda Kohanov.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Which
Carolina Lockwood: you've
probably, probably heard of.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah, sh- we- weâ¦
In fact, to listeners, go to our Live
Free, Ride Free podcast and look for
our interview with Linda Kohanov there.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Thank you.
I didn't realize that one.
Good.
Great.
Anyway, so I trained with her.
It was about, I think
it was about two years.
I traveled, gosh, I can't
remember now, three, four times.
We did a lot of online and then,
and then- Mm-hmm ⦠had presence.
And, and as, as, as I said to you,
I think before we started the call,
I usually take quite a time to
sort of actually start something
new, you know, once I've learnt it.
So anyway, I learnt that, I
trained in that, and then I
started doing sessions here.
And they, they went really well and
I, and but then the pandemic came, so
then I really said, "Okay, I'm done
with this the, the way that I know the
horse therapy with the, you know, what,
what, what we've just been talking
about and I'm gonna start this."
So I put more energy into that,
and people started coming.
And it was, it was so great 'cause it,
it just felt so easy, the whole thing.
I mean, it was, it was a one-man
show, but it was literally a oneâ¦
It was me, the horses, or the horses, me,
and the, and the client, and that was it.
So then, you know, there was noâ¦
I didn't evenâ¦
Well, Kathy always said you had to have
helpers, but I didn't because I knew
my horses and I, you know, I didn't
feel it was nec- sometimes I did.
Somebody wanted to listen in or
look on or whatever, so we did that.
And that, that grew and
grew, and it was really good.
So sometimes we had group sessions,
sometimes individuals, and I was called
to do The same thing in a, in a place
here called, it's a really, really
beautiful place called Penmaenmawr
where they have people to do what you
call in English, retiros, when you
go somewhere and you take a retreat.
Rupert Isaacson: Retreat.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Yeah, sort of healing retreats.
Rupert Isaacson: So they would go-
Although retiro sounds so much better.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: It does, actually.
And so I was called in and I would do,
say, a morning or morning and afternoon,
or one or the other with, with the
people, with the horses doing this
coaching but sort of group coaching,
which is a little bit different.
But it was really amazing what went on.
It was, like, mind-blowing and, and
the same was happening in, in my space.
So that's when I really thought,
"Okay, this is ⦠I, I just feel
so much more relaxed with this."
The horses are, are there.
I mean, they're, they're completely
there whether you choose one horse
and, and, and it's in the round pen
with a person, or if the person's
out in the field with 10 horses.
You're always looking after the safety if
it's ⦠If they're out in the field, I
have to know the horses, that they're all
gonna be okay and all that sort of thing.
And but that was really good.
And then so that was continuing, so
that's how the s- actual switch happened.
And I still got calls from people
saying, "I've got, you know,
this kid and this kid, and he
We want him to ride."
And I said, "Sorry, I'm
not doing this anymore."
And it was really hard to say,
"I'm not doing this anymore."
So sometimes I would say, "Well,
come and we'll do work from the
ground, you know, communication."
And I did that for, for
various people, too.
And then that sort of fizzled out.
You know, when you don't put your
energy into something it just sort of-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
And then another girl here opened a
center doing horse therapy, and I think
lots of people must have gone there.
I don't even know.
But so I was really happy that I had
made this sw- I mean, it was tough
at the beginning to go into the
space and, you know, where all this
huge thing had been happening, and
suddenly it was the horses and me
and saying, "Oh, what do we do now?"
It was like, you know, w- but in the same
time it was growing into something else.
And then we had ⦠I think
you, you met Frederic Pignon.
Rupert Isaacson: Y- yes, yes I have.
Yes
⦠Carolina Lockwood: Well,
we had his brother here,
Jean-Francois Pignon, and he- Who
Rupert Isaacson: I've also met.
He's also very good, yes
⦠Carolina Lockwood: W- amazing.
And he came- Yeah ⦠and he did a,
a sort of liberty training course.
Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful.
Carolina Lockwood: And I was ⦠Yeah,
and I was like, "Wow, this is so amazing."
I mean, it was like
Paul Walker to the 100%.
It was like, "Wow, this is
what I wanna do with horses."
And then so when he was there,
so I really practiced all
that he showed us what to do.
Mm-hmm.
And then a disciple of his called Celeste
gosh, I can't remember her surname.
She's French, really amazing.
She came and she carried on here.
And that for me was even, was even
richer because she, I don't know, it
was just like I, I, we jumped forth
with the horses so much with that.
The, you know, how to communicate,
how to train, and so simple
and can be done with any horse.
So then I started offering
sessions for people.
You know, they could either choose
with coaching or they could choose
this liberty work, which is very basic.
It wasn't getting to Pignon's
level, no way, neither them nor me.
No.
But it, but yes, we were able to show
how to connect with horses, which I
was finding more and more that was
what people were looking for, is how
to actually connect with the horse.
And who were
Rupert Isaacson: the people who were
coming out to you at this point?
Carolina Lockwood: Just people from around
here, you know, word of mouth saying, "You
Rupert Isaacson: know I-" Yeah, but
what, what were they coming with?
Were they coming with just, "I want
to learn how to work a horse," or
were they coming with, "I'm depressed
because I have postpartum depression,"
or were they coming with- Well-
"I, I have an eating disorder"?
Like, what, what were they coming with?
Carolina Lockwood: All,
all sorts of things.
"I'm depressed.
I've justâ¦
I wantâ¦
I need a divorce and I can't get one.
You know, I don't know
where to go in life.
I've got no job.
I've, you know, I, I don't know
how to put limits with my kids."
There was
Rupert Isaacson: just huge- Right.
The, the, the whole gamut.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, whole gamut, and
also what I could see is they're just-
Rupert Isaacson: But no longer, at this
point, say nonverbal autistic kids.
Carolina Lockwood: No, no.
Sometimes, yes.
Sometimes somebody would come.
Last summer one came for
something completely different.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I never say no.
In, in the way that you want to
come try this out, that's fine, but
I'm not offering a program- Yeah
you know, with helmets and riding.
That'sâ¦
I'm not doing that anymore.
And itâ¦
Y- you know, I, I love it, but I- I'm,
Rupert Isaacson: I'm curious.
When, when you have someone who's
coming at that more challenging level
of cognition, say nonverbal, to do
something like- Yeah ⦠liberty
with you, how does that play out?
Carolina Lockwood: Well, actually it
plays out really well because I mean,
you can show a non-verbal kid all what
you're doing just by showing, you know.
And dif- it would be maybe more
difficult to do a blind kid in that
because if they can't see, it's
very difficult to actually show.
You could explain.
Well, you can always do something.
But anyway, showing them non-verbal or
maybe not non-verbal, but really autistic,
you know, showing if you, if you stand
like this with a horse and y- and you
do like that, the horse will go back.
And then if you go this way,
the horse will come to you.
And if you have a rope, or not even a
rope, if you sort of in the roundâ¦
This would always happen probably in the
round pen, not, not further than that.
Mm-hmm.
And, and you ask a horse to walk that way,
they will, and it sort of empowered them.
It w- it, it really empowered them.
The same as we used to do lunging
with, with kids in the program.
Mm-hmm.
And it really empowered the kids
because they realized that if their
attention wasn't 100% on what they
were doing, it really worked with kids
who were all over there at school.
Mm-hmm.
If, you know, if they weren't really
focused, the horse would just ignore them
and do something completely different.
So then you would say,
"Hey, look at the horse.
You know, look at the, theâ¦"
And then, and then they were there.
So in a way it was the same with the
liberty, not to the extent probably, and
I didn't actually pursue it that much.
It wasn't something that
I was asking to come in.
Mm-hmm.
But if it came, I did.
Yeah, it was okay.
It was okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So then what I really saw too,
which was interesting, is that
sometimes, you know, people would
say, "W- what are you offering?"
So I would say, "Well,
you can do this or this.
You can do liberty work.
I can show you, you know, how
to connect with a horse and how
to ask it to walk around you or
come towards you or whatever.
And, or coaching, or we
can just sit and meditate.
We can do whatever you like really."
And what, what I was seeing is that
when you were doing the liberty
work, all the rest came in as well.
Because if somebody wanted a horse to
walk away from them, but they would say,
"Oh no, but poor thing, I don't want
them to walk away, you know, I feel bad."
Well, then the horse
wasn't gonna walk away.
So then it would be exploring, well,
what's happening inside you that you
can't feel the energy to ask somebody
something, somebody or some animal
or whatever, something that you need.
So it really tied up and
that was really interesting.
It, it still is.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And now to this day,
that's the work you're mostly doing?
Carolina Lockwood: Well, that and
now I started the energy healing.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us
Carolina Lockwood: about that.
Yeah, so I've just finished a year
and a half, no, a year and three month
course of energy healing with horses.
It was online with a girl- Who
Rupert Isaacson: through?
Where, who was offering this?
Carolina Lockwood: She's
called Saskia Marroquin.
Where is she based?
At the moment liv- she, at
the moment she's in Italy.
She moved.
She was in Cordoba, which is north
of Buenos Aires in Argentina.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Carolina Lockwood: And, and she'd
been doing this work for about, I
don't know, eight years I think.
Saskia- And so ⦠Marroquin.
I'll, I'll write it-
Rupert Isaacson: Marroquin.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll, I'll look her up.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Well, I'll, I'll send you to in a,
in a message later with the spelling.
Great.
And she's got a a center called Caballo
Cosmico, which like cosmic horse.
Mm-hmm.
And anyway, she ⦠It sort of ⦠I'd,
I'd read about this, I'd seen about
this online, you know, with our, all our
connections now on Instagrams and stuff.
I could see things that were happening and
I thought, "Wow, this looks so amazing.
How ⦠You know, what's happening?
How can I learn this?"
So anyway, you know, I could have
just tried it out and see what
happened, but I really thought there
was a lot more to it than that.
So I, I signed up for the course,
and at first it was a three-month
course, which was a little bit
basic, and then we, we went on for
another year to do a sort of mastery.
Really interesting.
All about energy work, you
know, the chakra- Tell us how it
Rupert Isaacson: works.
I mean, energy work is
a hugely broad term.
Carolina Lockwood: It's a huge thing.
Yeah, it's
Rupert Isaacson: huge.
Carolina Lockwood: I-
Rupert Isaacson: So, so what, what
does it, what does that mean to you?
What does that mean within this system?
Carolina Lockwood: I don't
know if I can explain it sort
of really synthesized, but-
Rupert Isaacson: Give it a try
⦠Carolina Lockwood: but ba-
Okay, I'll give it a try.
So basically, I mean, we know
that everything's energy, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Inside us, outside us.
The, the whole universe
is made out of energy.
Mm-hmm.
So it can, it can flow
and it can not flow.
I mean, I think we can feel it.
You know, if suddenly you get all tied
up in knots 'cause I don't know, you
can't manage to do something or I don't
know, whatever it is, you, you sort of,
at least I do, y- sort of feel blocked.
Wh- when that unblocks, then you
can say, "Oh, okay, I can relax now.
I can, you know, can look at
the sky and everything's fine."
That would be a really basic way of,
of, of saying it, but energy, as it's
everywhere, it's also through our body,
and so we might have all sorts of things
that block our energy, the horses as well.
But there's an interesting thing between
horses and humans there, but humans,
we might block our energy through
trauma, we might have had an accident,
which is also traumatic, or we mightâ¦
It's not even traumatic.
We might have a block because we
don't feel good enough in the world
or because we've been sh- Acquired
Rupert Isaacson: beliefs, prejudices-
Yeah, exactly ⦠software put
into us as children culturally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Ex-
limiting beliefs, all that.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Carolina Lockwood: All that sort
of produces different blocks in
different areas in the, in the
body and in, in our energy system.
So, I mean, there's allâ¦
millions, I don't know if millions,
but anyway, lots and lots and lots
of ways to unblock energy centers.
I mean- Mm-hmm ⦠you can find
it anywhere, you know, online.
You can do meditations.
You can use a gong.
You can go up the mountain.
Youâ¦
I mean, there's ever any amount of
ways to, to work on oneself and others.
Work in the good sense of the word.
Where the horses come in there is that
their energy system is the same as ours
in the sense that energy runs through
them as well, but they at least seemâ¦
I mean, we're not a horse.
We don't actually know.
This is what I feel.
This is from my point of view.
But they seem to be able to realign
very much more easily than we do.
You know, like the famous
they go back to grazing.
I mean, a horse can have a really
traumatic thing in the, in the round
pen, you know, and somebody hitting
with a whip, probably not in your way,
way of the world, but anyway, it does
happen, and then they let them out to
graze, and they just go up with the
herd, and they go back to grazing.
But that trauma will be installed, so
the next time they get into a round
pen with somebody like that, they'll,
you know, they'll all tense up again.
But they- Yeah ⦠do tendâ¦
They're so authentic- That they, they
tend to be able to, to realign and,
and sort of, sort of get, get sort of-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, they're,
they're, they're massively resilient.
They have to be- Yeah ⦠because if you
think about in the natural, in the wild,
they're hunted by predators all the time.
And I've, I've, you know, spent
time in Mongolia where wolves
were coming around to try to eat
our horses when we were camping.
Some, some horses get hunted by wolves.
Yeah ⦠the ones that get away, get away,
and do not require 10 years of therapy.
They just- Mm ⦠rejoin with the
herd and- Yeah ⦠go back toâ¦
Now, they're looking out, they're
vigilant, they're looking out for
wolves, but they're not, it doesn't
impair their quality of life, no.
Exactly.
Yeah.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, I think that's,
that's probably the crus- crux of it.
And as they're so authentic, you know,
a horse is not gonna do anything that
he doesn't want, and if he does do
something he doesn't want, it's because
he's probably been submitted to do it.
I mean, I've seen this, you s- at least in
this part of the world, you see it a lot.
You know, horses are sort of tied up to
a post, and they leave them there whenâ¦
luckily, hopefully not anymore
hardly, but they leave them there
for two days without water so they
can, you know, give in sort of thing.
And, and luckily that's not happening
hardly anymore, at least where I saw.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd,
I'd say you'd be hard put to
find that in Europe anymore.
I'm sure it goes on somewhere,
but it's, it's dark corners.
You wouldn't be running into it, yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think less and less
here, but it does happen.
I mean- Mm ⦠it, it's called æ¿
ä»·, and it's a pole in the middle,
and a horse will get tied to it
and, yeah, or beaten or whatever.
So but anyway- Yeah ⦠they, they,
unless they're submitted to that,
they will be authentic in showing,
you know, "I don't like this.
Don't wantâ¦"
I mean, w- what we were talking
about before with a horse-
Yeah ⦠that bite, yeah.
And, and a, and a p- a human, even
a dog maybe, you know, a human, a, a
human pleases in a way, so, so they
sometimes they don't say exactly
what they're feeling or thinking.
Yeah, I mean, we, I think we all do it,
you know, and, and not always to please
somebody, but sometimes you think, "Oh
gosh, I can't stand this, but I better
not say anything 'cause it's won't
go down well," something like that.
But, but a horse won't do that.
He'll, he'll just either
ignore you or go away or, or he
won't, he won't be cooperative.
I, I don't know if that's
clear, but, but it does-
Rupert Isaacson: No, it is.
But but I, I, I think I'm
asking a different question.
So energy work I'm, you
know, I'm no stranger to.
Yeah.
But I don't tend to call it that
only because those two words carry a
certain stigma that- Yeah ⦠blocks
people from being able to engage with
the subject matter because it, it
will just press buttons of prejudice.
But with the amount of time I've
spent, say, with shamans, I know
that one can actually explain these
things relatively straightforwardly.
Like one can explain the neuroscience
of why movement affects the brain.
You know, you've got this thing called
BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
It's an amino acid that is a protein
that causes you to create more brain
cells, and you do this when you do novel
movement where the body's not expectâ¦
can't predict what's gonna happen later.
Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.
That's how you get neuroplasticity.
That's ⦠One can explain these things,
and now obviously there are complexities
to that, but let's say they generalize it.
So f- the generalization of, of energy
work or healing, as I understand it from
the mentors that I've had in the Kalahari,
for example, with the Bushmen, is there
is a, a life force in the body, which is a
It's, it's your sexual life
force, but it's also your,
just your general life force.
And people have different names
for this in different cultures.
So in Asia it might be called
qi or chi or kundalini.
But in this particular part of
Africa where I've had most of
my experience, it's called !num.
And !num
is an, a word that has a number of
ambiguous meanings, but it really means
sort of life force, power, wisdom, but
specifically this f- And they say that
this resides at the base of the spine,
and you, you'll hear the same thing said
in Asia, and you'll hear the same thing
said, you know, in, by jungle shamans in
South America, and you'll hear the same
thing said in the Arctic, and you'll hear
the same thing said in Native America.
And you would hear the same thing
said in, you know, pre, pre-Christian
Europe before we put to death everybody
that had a background with this.
But there's actually still a few of them
knocking around up in Lapland and so on.
And with a certain training process,
you can learn to harness this.
So if you were, say, in the
jungles of South America, you
could use a plant like ayahuasca
or a, a conglomeration of plants.
Or if you were in Native America,
you could use cacti, you could use
peyote, you could use San Pedro.
But if you're in the Kalahari
where these things don't grow, you
have to use physical dance And a
system of training to go through.
But whichever way you use,
the result is the same.
You, you harness this energy, you make
it go up the spine, and y- once it
goes up the spine you can then begin
to pull bad things out of people or
put good things into people- Yeah
and go off and talk to ancestor
spirits and get answers for dilemmas.
Go and talk to nature spirits,
get answers for dilemmas.
Come out of the trance, and the person
who's come to you with a dilemma,
bad back, divorce, whatever, you
can say, "Okay, here is a series of
instructions that I, I have for you."
And that is basically how it pans
out in any indigenous setting.
Mm-hmm.
Whether they are wearing furs,
feathers, completely naked, or
herding reindeer or whatever.
You could even argue that when you
go to a doctor it's the same thing.
You go to a doctor with a story
and this is going on in my body,
this is going on in my, my mind.
The doctor goes into their
store of knowledge, perhaps into
their little magic box that they
have sitting in front of them.
Yeah.
And they come out with a set of
instructions, and they give those set
of instructions to you that are usually
based on getting a plant-based thing
that is now synthetic that was probably
based on something that they got from
the Amazon that the pharmaceutical
company has, you know, put a pa-
patent on, and h- went through- Yeah
a drug trial and only got on the
market when more people got better
through the drug than the placebo.
And in the first- Yeah ⦠few rounds
of the drug trial, more people would've
gotten better on the placebo, thinking,
trance, the mind, the heart thinking
that they were taking the drug, and
it's not until more people get better
off the drug than off the placebo
that the drug goes on the market.
So you could even argue that in
allopathic medicine it's the same thing.
So when I, when I'm asking you for
this kind of clarity, it, the reasonâ¦
it's the journalist in me.
I'm not, I won't let you get, be vague,
because I don't think that's useful.
I think what's useful- No ⦠is clarity,
because, you know, when one is coming
with a dilemma to have a bunch of
mystery and, and vagueness thrown is,
it just adds to the confusion, you know?
Right.
But if one can say, "Well, you know,
it's relatively straightforward.
We do this, we do this,
and then we do this."
And that doesn't take away from the magic,
because there's an awful lot of nuances
to the this, the this, and the this.
But one can say- Yeah ⦠there is this
thing called Well, it's not activating
kundalini or
anything like
Carolina Lockwood: it
to- Okay ⦠to start.
Yeah, it's, it's not.
I, I'm, I'm familiar with
that and it's, it's not.
Whether that happens-
Rupert Isaacson: Now
we know what it's not.
What is it?
Carolina Lockwood: Okay.
Well, just to, to clarify that-
Rupert Isaacson: Stop
hedging ⦠I'm, I'm,
Carolina Lockwood: I'm not
Rupert Isaacson: He'll chase you out
with a broom from under the table,
Carolina Lockwood: eh?
No.
What it is is the horses seem, I, I've
tried to be clear, seem to have an
ability to go to the, to the person, to
the body and stand there and, and, and
sort of breathe into them whatever it
is they're breathing in because I can't
be clearer than that because I'm, I'm
not the horse, so I would be inventing.
And the person feels aligned.
So whether the horse is unblocking
something in the heart chakra or the,
or the plex or whatever we think,
I, I still have argued about this.
We don't actually know but we think.
But, but yes, I've seen
it happen with people.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Carolina Lockwood: And I can give you a,
a couple of examples but- Please do, yeah
but just to put them ⦠Yeah, but
to put you in context, I mean, you
can do this with a person lying on
a, on a, what you call it in English?
Not, not a Like a massage table
Rupert Isaacson: or something?
Carolina Lockwood: Oh.
Massage table.
You could be sitting in a chair.
You could be standing There's no, there's
no ⦠It's not like coaching where
you say, "Okay, I've got this problem.
How can I solve it, or what can I do?"
It, it's not ⦠It's, it's sort
of you might have this problem,
but it, you don't actually ⦠It
doesn't go through the mind.
So you might be laying there and
the horses, I don't know, in my
case five horses of free to come
and go, and they can stand nearby.
They can hold the energy.
But it, the amazing thing is, is that
they seem to organize themselves, and
one will come up and will stand near
the person, over the person, touching
the person, whatever that horse chooses,
and maybe change the place where they're
standing and where they're putting
their muzzle, and if they're blowing
or if they're pushing or what- I mean,
you have to have horses that are, that
you're 100% sure are okay with this.
Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't
put a, a wild horse in.
I mean, that's number one.
So the person's laying there, and the
person might start having a vision,
sh- might start having shaking.
I mean, all sorts of things happen.
I can give you two examples
which for me are really powerful.
O- of one ⦠The first session I
ever did was a girl who gave me her
massage table 'cause she was terminal.
She was dying of cancer, and
she knew I wanted to work into
this, to, to look into this.
And she said, "I'm gonna give you my
table while I'm alive, so just take it."
So that sort of pushed me onto the
level of saying, "Okay, now I've gotta
do the course 'cause I can't do this."
Right.
So anyway, I said, "Well, I've
started the course, so you come and
be my guinea pig whenever you like."
So she did.
She came, and for me it was all new.
I mean, I do Reiki, but ⦠And I do
touch for health and all that sort of
thing, but literally I hadn't, I hadn't.
I mean, I was just sort
of looking into this.
I, I'm, I'm familiar with energy work,
not, not in the style that you were
talking about, but I am familiar with it.
So anyway, she was laying there and
the, the were ⦠the horses all pos-
positioned themselves in sort of different
places which were like the cardinal
points, like north, south, east, west.
It was like, wow.
And one horse who was looking there,
he waited for one, another horse to
move, and then he walked in and he st-
touched her feet, and then he touched
her knees, and then he stayed over her
heart, and then he went to her head.
And I was standing at the head 'cause
I didn't really know where to stand.
I mean, that's why I was there.
I mean, being honest here.
And he literally pushed me out of the way.
He said, "No, you go."
I said, "Okay."
And so he went on sort of ⦠It was
like he was circling her and- Anyway,
this went on for about an hour, I guess.
And when it ended, I mean, you
could see it ended because they
all sort of walked away in a way.
So she opened her eyes and I
said, "Well, do you want to
share anything that you felt?"
And she said, "It was amazing.
I've never, ever, ever felt
so much peace in my life.
It was like this gold something.
It was amazing."
And to cut a long story short,
she had another session two days
later, which wasn't the same.
And the funny thing was me and
my inexperience, I said, "Well,
I'll invite this horse in again."
And he definitely said no.
He, I mean, he wouldn't come.
I put a halter on him and he, nope.
And then, and another ca- horse came
in and did more or less the same thing.
Anyway, two months later, sadly she died.
She passed And when I went to
the ⦠I mean, this is really, wow.
I went to the funeral, and all
her friends, she- young, 55,
all her friends were there.
Everybody, you know, really emotional.
And, and lots came up to me and said,
"You're the w- the lady with the horses."
And I said, "Yes."
"Ah, she loved being so much
with your horses," and that.
And apparently she'd chosen ⦠I don't
know if this can go online, but anyway,
I'm telling it and you can edit it out.
I, I think so.
It's okay.
She chose with her psycho-oncologist
this image, this sequence with the
horses for someone to retell it
to her the moment she was passing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Carolina Lockwood: It
was so strong for her.
Now, a- and, and that's what happened,
and it was like, wow, this is
so ⦠I mean, I can't ⦠I don't
know exactly what was going on, but
something was going on really strong.
And it w- you know, you could
say, you know, the skeptical
could say, "Okay, well, just
Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes
put in stuff if it's good.
So it's, it's interesting
these things, Yeah ⦠are-
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: universal, I
Carolina Lockwood: think.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: In a way it's
like a universal language ⦠and
Rupert Isaacson: trans-mammalian perhaps.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, something like
that because I've seen, not with my
horses on people, but I have seen videos
of when we were doing this learning of,
of horses getting and sort of pulling
out, not actually biting, but- Mm-hmm
with their lips pulling something
out of here, and that person
happened to be having some real
mental thing that was worrying them.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Carolina Lockwood: Like, it's
like, it's mystical in a way.
I mean, it is, or, or
I don't know what you
Rupert Isaacson: would call it.
Yeah.
Well, it's mystical.
It, it is mystical I think in the, in
the literal way, in that it is a mystery.
Yeah,
Carolina Lockwood: it isn't it?
Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and one h- I, I think
this is one of the great, this is what
makes life worthwhile is that if one
is constantly having experiences where
one has to say, "I cannot explain what
I have just- Yeah ⦠experienced,
however, I have experienced it."
Yeah.
And this is what is called-
Yeah ⦠the miraculous, and this
is what is called a joyous life.
Yeah ⦠wh- when I was living, you
know, when I was spending so much
time with the Bushmen, I realized
that this type of experience is
more or less daily because it's
tied up with hunting, it's tied up
with gathering, it's so tied up with
contacting animals, it's ti- tied up
with contacting and speaking to plants.
You know, people say, "Oh, well,
you know, people learn to concoct
ayahuasca by trial and error."
Really?
There's how many thousands of species
down there in the Amazon, and to, to
narrow it down to these- Four ⦠two
vines at this dose by trial and error,
you kill everybody in your community.
Or l- how do you learn, you know, which
mushrooms are good and which ones- Exactly
are not because they look so similar?
At a certain point you have to
be comfortable with saying some
people can talk to mushrooms.
You know?
Some people can talk to trees,
and they just jolly well can.
And whether or not you want
to accept it, it goes on.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
It does
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and you know, I've
seen shape-shifting and all of that
stuff, so I mean, you know, we could
go into that further, and perhaps we
should in another, another conversation.
But yes, I mean, I need no convincing.
But I think, and I also kn- need no
convincing as to why people find it
difficult to be convinced because it's
left our society to such a degree.
However, you know, through, through
the church and all sorts of other
things, but however, it, it still
goes on because people still have
intuition, people still have all sorts
of premonitions, people still have-
All sorts of things they can't explain.
You, you can still go to certain
farmers in Ireland who have the cure
for this or they have the cure for that,
and they're devout Catholics often.
And they can jolly well put their hand on
you and that thing that you had goes away,
and they've done that for 8,000 people
and it's a bloke who farms potatoes.
So but it is still, as you
say, mystical because life is.
Yeah ⦠you know, so, so that's
why I wanted you to sort of delve
into it a bit because I think it's
when you get away from the vague
that the real mystery comes forth.
Because when you, as you, as you just
talked to us about, and, you know,
I think you could define what you're
doing with energy as unblocking.
I think it-
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm, yeah ⦠you
know, you're talking about finding
places where there's blocks in the
electricity going around or whatever
we wanna call it, and- Somehow
I'm blocking them through horses.
And people say, "Well,
how can a horse do that?"
Well, my friends who, if you're
skeptical, I've li- gone to
this place called Mongolia.
When you go to Mongolia,
you will encounter people
who don't just ride horses.
The entire culture for millennia
has depended upon horses in a really
extreme, harsh environment, where
if you don't know how to keep horses
well in that environment, you die.
So, and you don't just ride them.
You live under their skins because
you, tha- those are your tents.
You know, you live you li- you
eat them, you drink them, you
wear them, you, every, there's
nothing, and, and your spirituality
is entirely taken up with them.
And all the shamans are tapping into
energies of what's called the wind horse.
Everyone has a wind horse.
It's your soul, your luck, your mojo,
and they've been doing this for a
long time and getting sick and getting
better out there with the horses
engaging in the medicine as well.
And you can be as skeptical as
you wanna be, and you should.
Skepticism is healthy.
Cynicism is not healthy.
Cynicism is the coward's way
out because that's just saying,
"Anything I can't understand I
will dismiss 'cause I'm scared."
But skepticism, absolutely.
No, it's very healthy.
That's what I was saying to you.
I'm skeptical.
Please explain more.
But skepticism isn't dismissal.
Skepticism is saying, "Please be clearer.
And just describe your experience."
So this is how many, many,
many millions of people on the
planet still live and thrive.
So yeah, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm
fascinated by your trajectory of story,
and really what I was trying to do there
was get the clarity so that people can
understand and sort of honor m- a bit
more what you've done, because if, if we
recap, you know, from where you started,
you're starting with this art therapy.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Then you're
mixing, then you're learning horses.
Then you're mixing art therapy with
horses, and then you go very much
into the kind of horse boy thing where
you're riding, you're up there in
the saddle with autistic kids getting
communication, kids becoming verbal.
I know that many kids did become verbal
with you because we followed you for
such a long time, and some of our staff
went down to spend time with you and
saw it all happening at first hand.
And then you graduated from that
into the coaching, and now you've
graduated from that into the healing.
That is an equine-assisted life and
career, which I think is an inspiration
for, you talked about burnout.
You know, if, if you're listening to
this or watching this and you've been
listening to Karolina's story, you,
perhaps you're feeling a bit burned out.
Perhaps you're feeling,
"Oh, fuck," you know?
I, I said that word.
Yeah.
You know, maybe I'll ⦠H- can I,
can I still be doing this in 10 years?
And the answer is, well,
maybe you don't need to.
But that doesn't mean you have
to abandon the whole endeavor.
The endeavor can evolve, right?
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Yeah.
It can
Rupert Isaacson: And that you were
dealing with so much of that basic
security anxiety for your horses
through the whole thing, and still do.
I mean, hats off.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: It's
Rupert Isaacson: my hat coming
Carolina Lockwood: off.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So where's it gonna go?
Yeah.
W- what's next for you?
Carolina Lockwood: Well, that's
interesting question because theâ¦
When I just finished this mastery
thing, I had to do a three,
a three bit sort of entrega.
It's would be like a thesis,
but it isn't actually.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, it's oneself than to pass a grade.
It's, it's not for a degree.
It's to sort of really see where one's
going, and it's really well laid out
because it brought, at least for me,
it brought out so much in me of, of
what happened to me in this year that
I was able to first listen to my own
intuition as basic and not al- always
feeling, you know, that I wasn't good
enough or that I was comparing to
other people, that I wasn't doing it
right and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And this is the story
of my life a little bit.
Although I have done a lot,
but anyway, it was there, so
Rupert Isaacson: it really-
I would say so, yes.
But
Carolina Lockwood: it really
sort of brought the self value
up, self valorization, like.
Mm.
But even if I do it differently to
what's in this course, or if I've done
it differently to what you've done,
it's okay 'cause everybody- Absolutely.
It's okay ⦠their own way.
And, and so the last, there was the part
on oneself, then it was the part on the
horses, and the last part was your dream.
And the interesting thing was, I
think we all can relate to that one,
as you always say in your courses,
when you h- you know, I have a
dream, and that dream opens doors.
I mean, it does.
We know that.
And so y- the more you sort of realize
that dream as not only possible,
but already in the now happening,
I mean, all the possibilities
are out there in some sense.
And so I was writing about
this just three days ago.
I finished it.
Yeah.
And, and I dream of of another center.
Well, center, I wouldn't
call it even a center.
I want to be able to have a, a camp of
my own, a place where the horses can
live- Where they're secure, where people
can go do retreats, go for one-day
sessions or ⦠I wouldn't live there
whole year round, but I would come and
go, and have have o- have other people
come in and offer their own thing too.
So I might have somebody like Celeste
doing liberty training or another thing
that she's doing now which I love.
She takes risk, high-risk kids, I
think you call it that to adolescence.
Mm-hmm.
And instead of going for a ride on
the mountains for 10 days, they walk.
They take the horses with them.
They walk with the horses, and it,
that's a whole different experience.
It's not a ride, it's a, it's
a ⦠So I would invite her.
We've always said-
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us her name again.
I, I didn't quite catch it.
Carolina Lockwood: Oh, I've
remembered the surname.
Celeste Solzonne in French.
S-O-L-Z-O-N-N-E.
Did you get that?
Rupert Isaacson: S-O-L Zed?
Carolina Lockwood: Z-E-N-N-E.
I'm gonna ⦠Don't know if it's
double N, but something like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Solzenna.
Solzenna.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, and if you
put Le, Le Cheval Celeste- Celeste
⦠the, the Blue Hor- the Blue Horses-
I- ⦠you're gonna find her online.
Amazing what she's doing.
Rupert Isaacson: The Celestial Horses.
Yeah.
Celeste-
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: Solzenna.
Le Che- Solzenna.
Okay, I'm gonna look her up along
with Saskia Maroquine, which
by the way is with a Q-U-I-N.
Thank you.
And I'm going to be looking
up Peter Walker as well.
It's great.
Yeah.
Or
Carolina Lockwood: Paul.
Rupert Isaacson: Paul.
So you, so, so the idea is that you
would, you would, it would be like a-
Carolina Lockwood: L- like a sort of
place- A sort of- ⦠where people
would come from different parts of the
world, offer what they got to offer.
I would be there offering what I know.
And I don't know,
Rupert Isaacson: I just- A healing,
a healing university of the horse
⦠Carolina Lockwood: yeah, a healing
retreat, and also get rescue horses-
Mm-hmm ⦠and reinsert them and,
and have a space where horses
are ⦠It's like a sanctuary.
I mean, this is- Mm ⦠like huge, okay?
I don'tâ¦
No idea.
No idea, but if I don't put it
out there, it's, that's the best
way of it not happening, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, there are
people, there are people out there
right now who are doing this who
are starting these, this very s- I
need to put you in touch with Iâ¦
Maybe she's even listening.
It's Triple H Ranch outside of
Chicago, horse rescue, that then
got into doing Horse Boy Movement
method and TEQUINE, which is, I,
you know, on the ground program.
And- Oh ⦠now working with
at risk, and particularly
girls out of the foster system.
There you go ⦠are bringing in
all sorts of other practitioners.
And that's, Yeah, so, so Triple H, I think
I need to put you in touch with them.
And then there's something
similar happening in Michigan
and- Oh ⦠so on and so on.
So I, I, I think that a lot of
people are going this way rather
than saying, "I do this program."
Yeah, and also- Which has always
struck me as a little sad.
Carolina Lockwood: And also, I
mean, I, I'm, I'm realistic, you
know, I don't have the, the means-
Rupert Isaacson: Christine
Durand at Triple H Ranch.
That's right, yeah.
Go ahead, sorry.
Carolina Lockwood: Okay.
W- I don't have the means
to go out and buy a, a farm.
I, I mean, I don't, but you never
know where it could come from.
But what I do know is that
meanwhile, I can carry on doing
this here where I am in my backyard.
But
Rupert Isaacson: what is the
difference then between you buying
this place and doing it from the
place that you're in currently?
Carolina Lockwood: Because the difference
would be that it would be a much bigger
place f- to start with, a place where
I could have people to come and stay.
Mm-hmm.
And a place where the horses
could live all year round and be
safe, and have different ground.
So they
Rupert Isaacson: don't currently
live all year round with you now?
Carolina Lockwood: No.
They go from May to end of
November, they go to a farm.
So I've only got, I've only
got the two old guys here,
because one literally can'tâ¦
He has no teeth, so he has
all his food softened down.
So
Rupert Isaacson: in the wintertime,
they, they go and they take
a, they take a season off.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So- And then they come
Rupert Isaacson: back for the summer ⦠I
Carolina Lockwood: don't
know if ⦠Yeah, yeah.
So either it would be a space
where they would be all year round,
or if that doesn't happen, they
would carry on how it is now.
I mean, it's- Mm.
The thing is, it's not ideal.
If you go down to my back garden
now, it's just literally knee-deep
in mud, so there's no way I
could do anything with anybody.
Rupert Isaacson: And, Because that's the
winter season where you are currently.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That's
your local climate.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, and the marsh
is just water almost, or all water.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Carolina Lockwood: Not that I can offer
something, but out in the, where all
this farmland is, it's much drier.
Not, not- Yeah ⦠probably July
'cause it snows a lot, but, you
know, you can start maybe August,
September, and you can carry on.
I don't know.
It, it, it is a dream.
Mm.
Okay.
But whether it goes there
or not, I have no idea.
Mm.
But if it doesn't, I will, I'm
sure, you know, to carry on with
this here, and I can also invite
people to here to do things.
I mean, Celeste came here and did it here.
So, you know, she couldâ¦
The, the liberty training.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: So she could come
do something with kids or, you know.
I mean, I don't know where it's going.
I really don't.
But at the moment, where it is, it's okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Another
Carolina Lockwood: mystery.
And where it could be
bigger or not, I don't know.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think that's a
very healthy, it- You know, I'm always-
Sort of, what's the word here?
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'mâ¦
That one must dream- Mm-hmm ⦠and
one must be unattached to outcome.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that is, it's-
Yeah ⦠it's in that sweet spot, and
one can't always be there emotionally.
But- Yeah ⦠if that's where one ideally
would like to be, then hopefully one
can spend less time in the extremes
of, say, apathy on one end, and,
you know, urgency and anxiety- Yeah
and suffering because it hasn't
happened yet on the other end,
and that sweet spot in the middle.
And we hope that over time we can
spend less time on those extremes
and more time in that middle path.
Yeah.
And then things tend to pan out
is what I've generally found.
Oh,
Carolina Lockwood: yeah.
And if, you know, and if th- this
thing doesn't happen, well, it's
fine, I just will carry on here.
Yeah.
I can't have any more hope,
yeah, that's for sure.
I justâ¦
No, it's notâ¦
You know, if I want to enlarge the
herd, no, it's not gonna happen
here, because it's too difficult.
Yeah.
It, it really is.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it sounds
like too from what, from what
you're doing, you don't need to.
And, you know, we've gone through
this ourselves, we've gone through
iterations where we've had herds of
up to 23 horses, and now we're down
to a, a really streamlined seven.
Carolina Lockwood: There you go
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and where you are, what
you're offering is at different times.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Re-
requires different things.
And I, I, I, what I love about this
whole conversation is it, I think
it gives people permission to allow
their practice to have an evolution.
Because in the, in the fields
of equine assisted-ness, it's,
there can be a lot of rigidity.
You must do this, you must
abide by these protocols, you
must da, da, da, da, da, da.
If you do- don't do this, we will kick you
out of the organization, blah, blah, blah.
You lose your insurance, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I think there's more and more of a-
natural rebellion against this
happening for people who've given
that a try, and done that for a good
few years and said, "Well, you know,
honestly, it's just too limited."
If I'm really go- yes, of course, safety.
Yes, of course, proper
pressur- preparation of horses.
Yes, of course, correct horse welfare.
Yes, of course, certain absolutely
commonsensical protocols which
should be in place and one ought to
be inspected, yes, and all of that.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And because every context is
different, and because the humanâ¦
You know, if, if someone burns out
and gets out of the game, then that's-
Yeah ⦠a whole lot of more families
that just never get served, right?
Yeah.
Because someone might say, "Oh,
well, you know, Carolina, you're not
doing the autism families anymore."
I say, "Well, maybe you are," because
maybe that person that comes for
the unblocking of the energy is
an autism mom or an autism- Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: aunt or sister
or has autism, or, you know.
And you're just serving
them in a different way.
You're just part of the
constellation of services.
But y- you have the right to
evolve, and grow, and develop,
and deepen, and broaden.
Otherwise, as you say in
Ireland, it's no crack at all.
And if it's no crack at
all, then what, what weâ¦
why are we even doing anything, yeah?
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
I think whe- when you went back
to the, the mysticism of all
this, it's like being in awe.
I remember reading- Mm ⦠a book on,
on this, and they, there was this whole
thing, you know, be in awe of the universe
'cause we can't explain everything.
It's like- Yeah ⦠I remember one of my
spiritual teachers saying, "You can'tâ¦
If you look at the mirror and want to
know what's at the back of it, then
you're losing the essence of the mirror."
I mean, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well, that's one piece of information,
and it's all right to want to know that.
Like, it's also w- all right to
want to know what's the mineral
composition of the mountain.
Carolina Lockwood: Exactly.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But
it's still a mountain.
Still a
Carolina Lockwood: mountain, and
how did we actually get there?
Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, mountain woman,
there you are sitting in the Andes.
Thank you so much for this.
It's been a beautiful journey
that you've taken us on.
Thank you ⦠it's been
so good to reconnect too.
Yeah.
We are- Yeah ⦠we're
approaching the two-hour mark.
Can you let people know how
they can get in touch with you?
Because I think that- Yeah ⦠people
have a lot to learn from you, and I would
really encourage listeners and viewers, by
the way, if you are in an equine-assisted
practice, it's always a good idea to
check in with people who have mentorship.
You know, so maybe some consultancy,
maybe some guidance, you know, online.
You don't have to go down to
Patagonia, although why not?
Or you can.
Yes.
So, so how do people
contact you, Carolina?
Carolina Lockwood: Well,
what would be the best way?
Email or ⦠Well, you can do email.
Rupert Isaacson: Up to you.
You tell us.
Okay.
Email.
Shall I
Carolina Lockwood: write, recite it out?
Just
Rupert Isaacson: spell it out, and
we'll just go- Instagram ⦠letter by
Carolina Lockwood: letter.
Instagram.
Yeah, well, carowood9@gmail.com.
That's easy.
Caro or Carole?
Caro.
Caro.
C-A-R-O-W-O-O-D 9-
Rupert Isaacson: Caro Wood
Carolina Lockwood: 9
⦠Rupert Isaacson: under nine,
Carolina Lockwood: yeah, @gmail.com.
@gmail.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Carowood9@gmail.com.
Yeah.
You say, "Dear Carolina, I'd like
to learn how to run my program and
evolve, please, and I will pay you
150 bucks an hour to tell me, please."
Okay.
And because it's, it's,
it's advice worth getting.
Instagram, tell us about your Instagram.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah, Instagram.
Well, the one on horses is called
Alquimia, like alchemy, but you
spell it A, Alquimia Equina.
A-L-Q-U-I-M-I-A.
This is too long
Rupert Isaacson: Ekina, like equina
Carolina Lockwood: And then
Ekina, yeah, like equina.
Yeah Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: equine, but with
an A on the end instead of an E.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Alchemia Ekina
Rupert Isaacson: That's my Instagram.
Okay.
Yeah.
Alchemic, alchemic, alchemic equine.
Alchemical equine.
Yeah.
Okay.
Carolina Lockwood: And then there's
Facebook, Caro- Carolina Lockwood,
or there's, Carolina Lockwood.
Yeah.
I think those three.
And then I've got another
Instagram, which is my personal
one, which is- Okay ⦠Lockwood
Carolina, which is the same thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And many of our, you know, many
people that I know have gone
down to you and stayed with you,
studied with you, worked with you-
Yeah ⦠in those beautiful mountains.
So i- if people get in contact with
you, can they come for mentorship?
Can they come for-
Carolina Lockwood: Sure ⦠training?
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful.
Carolina Lockwood: If I can offer
what they're looking for, yeah, sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Even if you can't.
It'll be something- Okay ⦠it'll
be something along the way.
Yeah.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: it is.
It'll be a, a chapter in the book.
Carolina Lockwood: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, my
friend, thank you so much.
Carolina Lockwood: Thank you.
Beautiful, this.
Thank you very much, really.
Rupert Isaacson: My- Honored ⦠it's
been my, the pleasure's been mine.
I would like to do this again.
Maybe we should check in next
year and see where it's gone to.
Carolina Lockwood: Oh, see where it is.
Yeah, that would be great.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Carolina Lockwood: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: In that case- Bye, Rupert
I shallâ¦
Goodbye, my friend.
Goodbye.
Carolina Lockwood: Goodbye.
Bye-bye.
Bye
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