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For many of us, despite having the best intentions, our churches struggle to effectively reach out with the gospel. J.A. Medders and Dr. Doug Logan, Jr. have decades of experience leading churches and mentoring pastors, and here, they outline six principles for cultivating a genuine evangelistic culture throughout your church.
Join Jeff and Doug for this podcast, which discusses the principles of their new book, The Soul-Winning Church.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: Welcome
back to the Soul Winning Church
podcast from Doug Logan Jr.
And Ja Mets.
And we're discussing our book, the Soul
Winning Church, six Keys to Fostering
a Genuine Evangelistic Church Culture.
We've covered a lot of the keys.
We're now to one that you know.
I think some people would be
surprised that this chapter is
included in a book on evangelism.
We're talking about preparing for
conversions through good works, and I.
It may seem odd to some people to have a
chapter on Good works and mercy ministries
and compassion, um, in a chap in a book on
evangelism, but I think that's exactly why
we need this chapter because as we've seen
in Matthew nine, we see in other text.
I mean, Jesus is going about
doing good works, healing people.
He's definitely fulfilling
prophecies from Isaiah, uh, and,
and other prophets, but he's.
Also actually doing these things
as dynamics of his ministry.
But I love this quote.
We'll start with this quote from
Richard Loveless and his incredible
book, dynamics of Spiritual Life.
He says that the church as
an instrument of mission.
Maybe compared to a cutting tool whose
steel shaft is works of justice and
mercy, but whose diamond edge is the
proclamation of truth that works and word
go together for evangelistic churches.
And, and Doug, you really owned
this chapter, um, set a lot of the
vision and, and the content of it.
And I just brought some little
seasonings and spices throughout
it, but this was really you.
And, and so Doug, walk us through why.
We have this, as Jesus says, the
salt and light dynamics in our
ministry and why that's important
for, for soul winning churches.
Doug: Yeah, Jeff man.
Um.
This was, I, I think that the
church, uh, let me just be clear.
We often don't utilize all the weapons
for our warfare, um, for mission
evangelism and ministry that we ought,
and we use this salt, salt and light
thing as like a cool preaching idea, but.
I think we must embrace it as
believers, as evangelists, as
church members, as we are about, um.
Trying to be soul winning
churches in that it's a word from
God about who we ought to be.
You know, when I think about the at
the Beatitudes in the old church,
we would say the beatitude is all
the attitudes you ought to be.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: Right.
Doug: And so I think we
ought to be what Jesus says.
We ought to be salty and bright churches,
he says that in Matthew five 13.
He says, you are the salt of the earth,
but the salt should not lose its taste.
How can it be made salty if you no
longer good for anything but thrown out
and trampled under the people's feet?
And before we jump into just the
bright churches, um, where he, Jesus
says, you are the lighter the world.
So often this salty description lacks it.
It almost is only a proclamation
of who we are, and there's an
ignoring of the warning that Jesus
gives of when you're not that.
Being thrown away.
So this, this imitable reality that man
we're called to be actively, regularly
and function as salt, salt in the world.
It's just an ordinary mineral.
I talk about it preserves food.
It's, it's used in industry, um, in
many ways essential for human survival.
And I mean, you know, bad salt, we talk
about MSG, you know, and, and from a
dude with high blood pressure, um, who
I love salt and can't really have it, it
is amazing in the potential non decaying
of meat, particularly you, you're a
steak man, so on the non, um, decaying
of steak, but in the first century.
Um, when Jesus was using this, he was
talking about the preserving reality of
the people's impact on the world first.
Second, the deeper meaning for
me as a salty church is, um.
It connected to good works.
What am I screaming?
When?
When we went, when I planted my
church and any church, I've been
a part of one in Kensington,
Philadelphia, when I was with Dr.
Mason in North Philly and then in Camden,
we would go about being salty by serving
the community with loving good deeds from.
Cleanups to, um, asking the city
how, what they were lacking of
and how our church could step in.
Um, you know, nobody has a snowblower
in the hood, so we got some snowblowers,
some weed whackers, some lawn mowers,
some weed killer and all of that.
And we did those things, seeking to
be good neighbors and just living out
the gospel as good neighbors and I.
Those good deeds, people begin to
wonder why the heck are they doing this?
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: Hmm.
Doug: Which opened up, uh, conversations
that led to relationships that gave
me entrant entrance into people's
lives to share the gospel and, um.
So now the preserving reality that
the church serves through the, through
love and good works floats us now to
being, uh, the, uh, a bright church.
'cause he says in the same way, in five
16, let your light shine before others,
that they may see your good works and
give glory to the father in heaven.
So the saltiness and the brightness
of the church, um, brings about, uh.
A zooming in from us.
To the God in us that we might have
opportunities to share the gospel.
And so often this is not a
ploy or a plot or a trick.
This is not the primer
before the paint to get them.
No.
This is the paint and the primer in
the same can because love and good
works are inextricably connected.
And so therefore, to be salty
and bright churches, we have
to be about the preserving.
Of, um, of, as a people for the city.
And then we have to light up the
city with the gospel in how we
serve the city as good neighbors.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: Yeah.
Yeah.
You see, you know this.
It's like we can fall into the
trap of wanting to pit these things
against each other as though you're
either at Good Works doing church
or you're an evangelistic church.
Like, nah, it's, it's both like
Paul Paul says in Titus that we
should be eager to do good works.
Um, and Titus three, Paul Admonishes
Titus to tell the Christians there
too that they need to learn to
devote themselves to good works.
That we would be zealous to
do good works that so like.
The fact that we have to be told to learn
to do good works means it's not really
natural to us to wanna get out and go
do this and love our neighbors and serve
others, but that it becomes supernatural.
It, it becomes the spirit's work in us
to go do these things and that when we
love and do good works and serve the
poor and all this stuff, that it's,
it's setting a stage for evangelism,
for the heralding of the good news.
It's.
It's like when Proverbs talks about, um,
a word fitly spoken is like an apple of
gold and a setting of silver that you
have the message that apple of gold.
But that the way you say it, that that
setting of silver accentuates it, it,
it makes it, um, even, it, it gives it
a nice platter on which to present it.
And I think about that with the good works
and, and the good news of the gospel that.
The way we love our neighbors and
serve others and care for others
and take care of the poor and do
the mercy ministries and the soup
kitchens and the cutting grass.
I mean, all those kinds of things.
It is a setting of silver for that
apple of gold, for that good news.
Um, and so, but there,
there are some danger.
Oh, first we see Jesus doing this.
So it's not, this is not our idea.
This is from Christ.
We're, we're quoting Matthew five
Doug: That's right.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: and at the end
of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus finishes.
He's declared his kingdom, and then he
goes right to demonstrating his kingdom.
He goes right away to healing a leper.
And, and Matthew eight, he then,
um, works with a Roman, uh, soldier,
heals that servant, and then he
goes to heal Peter's mother-in-law.
And he goes, I mean, we
see this all throughout.
Jesus is declaring, Jesus is demonstrating
and that that's our ministry too.
And so really the, the two dangers that I
think churches have gotta avoid here is.
It tends to be what, maybe what camp
you're in or what tribe or what kind
of theological emphasis you may have.
Like I noticed this one time just in
our, in our world that, you know, in, in
the book of James when he says, this is
pure and undefiled religion to look after
orphan and widows, orphans and widows.
Doug: Yep.
Yep.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: I
think a lot of people forget that
that verse continues and to keep
oneself, unstained from the world.
That, those two things looking
after orphan and widow orphans and
widows in their distress and keeping
yourself unstained from the world
that's pure and undefiled religion.
And it seems to be that you've got
Christians on one side that man,
they major on Mercy Ministries.
I.
But maybe they're a little
liberal, they're allowing some
sins to occur or, or whatever.
They're not keeping themselves
stained from the world.
But then you got people on the other
side who they are keeping themselves
tained from the world, but they don't
really look after orphans and widows
or other, or anyone in their distress.
But pure and Undefiled religion,
salty and bright churches do both
Doug: That's right.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: and, and
so I think the first danger we've
got to avoid is we cannot treat
good works and Mercy ministries.
As the same or as an alternative,
as a substitute to evangelism.
Like personal evangelism is about
evangelism, it's about the evangel.
It's a, it's about the gospel.
Like you, you really
gotta say the good news.
Um, we heard that quote all the time.
You know, preach the gospel
all times if necessary.
Use words.
That's such a silly frank of Assisi.
If he even said that.
People are not even sure
if he really said that.
We can maybe get the
sentiment and he's saying.
Hey, let your good works adorn what
you're doing, which is what we would
affirm, but we wouldn't say it that way.
Um, you gotta use words.
Uh, the, you know, the joke that
people use all the time is it's
like saying, uh, you know, feed the
hungry and if necessary use food.
well, no.
I mean, it's, you gotta have both, but, so
we gotta be careful that doing good works.
Is not a substitute, um, for evangelism.
Like we've got to tell people
Jesus died for sinners.
Jesus rose for sinners, and
you're a sinner and Jesus will
forgive you and he loves you.
So, so it's gotta be gospel front loaded.
This is what we're about.
This is the main message.
It's not a good works
are not a substitute.
They're an adornment, they're a platform.
They're a red carpet, uh, for,
so we can, um, share the gospel
and, and we're also not saying, I.
You have to only do good
works to share the gospel.
Like no way.
Like there are moments in an Uber on an
airplane and a battery aisle at Walmart.
I mean, whatever it may be, that you can
share the gospel any, anywhere, anytime.
Um, but good works for these
long-term relationships, long context
that they give you an opportunity.
To frame what, what you're saying
and, and being apologetic to, to the
gospel itself through you're good work.
So that's the first danger.
Don't, don't let it be a substitute.
Second is we gotta make sure that
we don't treat mercy ministry as
optional or a distraction from
the real work of the church.
Making disciples is the ministry of
the church and Matthew 28, and which
includes, we gotta preach the gospel,
we gotta baptize, we gotta do all
these things and, but making disciples.
Well, what do disciples do?
Jesus shows us what disciples do.
Disciples love their neighbors.
The parable of the good Samaritan
shows us, who is my neighbor?
Jesus instructs them.
Who is your neighbor?
So I think sometimes churches
can say, you know, we're just
all about preaching the gospel.
That's, that's the main thing I, I get it.
And I've probably said stuff like that
before too, but that's our message.
But our mission is making disciples, which
includes evangelism, seeing new converts,
and then teaching them to observe and
obey all that Jesus has commanded.
So the main mission of our
church is to make disciples,
and this is what disciples do.
They love their neighbors,
they serve others.
So if I could use the analogy of jazz
and notes and all that stuff, I, I think.
Major notes of Christ's ministry.
He came to destroy the devil's works.
He gave himself as a ransom for many.
He proclaimed good news.
The minor keys that are a part of
that note hit hitting the keyboard
or are a part of that guitar.
Guitar strings is.
Essential to the same music.
Those minor keys are the works
of mercy that you have both of
these together proclaiming the
kingdom, demonstrating the kingdom,
declaring who he is, demonstrating
Doug: That's plain.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020:
it's like to follow
Doug: That's plain.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: so we, we
gotta keep these things in check or
else we're gonna get so out of balance
and we become, you can quickly become
a liberal church when you're all
about, um, just doing good works if
you lose that drive for the gospel.
And so we gotta keep
these things in check.
So do good works.
So.
We can also declare the good news.
Doug: No, absolutely.
You can't say no better.
Um, and remember, we're,
we're gospel centered, not.
Um, salt centered necessarily,
we're gospel centered.
We're not just good deeds centered.
Um, our gospel centrality has
in it booby trapped and front
loaded good deeds, holy living.
All those are a part of our
gospel living, but those sometimes
cannot have the gospel in 'em.
So we are gospel centered with all
the herbs and spices of Holy Ghost
seasoning that Jesus used on people.
Um.
Who are unserved by the super salt
of the Holy Spirit to keep them.
And so, yeah, man, we sprinkling that
good salt on folk that, that, that, that
good seasoned salt that brings about a
salty Christian that also wants to season.
And so we also talk about Jeff and it was
big for me and this chapter was man, um.
The reputation of the church.
When, when, when I look at tv, when I
look around the world at social media and
stuff, there's a mockery of the church.
Um, so often, um, the worship is
made fun of, I think about different
gospel artists doing songs with.
Um, people who hate Christ and they
do songs together as if that's cool.
That's not cool.
That's, that's whacked, that's wrong.
It's wrong.
And they, they do these songs trying
to celebrate our Christ when they
want nothing to do with Christ.
Um, so, and then the ongoing world,
the out the world looks in on
us and sees this weak, impotent.
Lack of credibility church, not to mention
our own self-inflicted wounds of pastors
falling in sin, and from adultery to money
laundering to some even, you know, from.
Just a host of sins that have
captivated and collapsed many a
pastor that brings about our own
self-inflicted wounds of shame.
And so therefore, um,
all that goes with it.
We have a gospel for that, and we
have a gospel for those fallen people
in the brokenness of this world.
So please don't hear me
saying we're done without it.
No.
The gospel is for those moments
and it is a part of these people.
But yet, um.
Um, I want our churches as being
salty and bright churches to have
a good reputation in the hood, A
good reputation on the block, a good
reputation in the na, in the gated
community, and in the ungated community.
Uh, why?
Because Jesus is the epitome of
the good reputation of eternal
life, and we ought to reflect that.
I talk about, you know, um.
That one Roman, that run Roman
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: Oh yeah, so
Doug: about, um, as he looked
on in, in the challenges of the
early church, he talks about.
The, um, the Christians not only take
care of their own people, but they even
take care of, um, as he was referring
to the citizens of his empire, his poor.
What a beautiful testimony
might our reputation have.
The aroma of Christ.
Um, even in failure, there's
reconciliation and repentance that still
carries the aroma of Christ even in, uh.
Falling down, might we get up standing
on Christ repenting with the aroma of
Christ and sharing that good news and
that we might not let Hollywood define.
The love of God coming from our local
churches, but that our love and good
works, our gospel presentation, our an
invitation to our homes might be the
apologetic to the hood, might be the
apologetic in the hood, in the world, on
the street, in the suburbs, in the condos.
Might that be the message of
the gospel lived out by us.
This is so important is because the last
thing I'll say when it comes to reputation
is they set many people in the world.
Who look on at Christianity, say we, we
talk the talk, but we don't walk the walk.
So might, might it be said of us that
we walk the walk and talk the talk
and even, and that we're committed
to walking the walk and talking the
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: That's good.
That's good.
You know, we, we, we didn't mention
in the last couple episodes, but
if you, if you've got the book,
you can see in the back of the book
that we've got case studies from
other churches where they have.
How they have tried to
live out these principles.
And you'll find multiple examples
of churches who are doing good works
ministries who are doing salt and light
well in their communities and the kind of
gospel fruit that's coming out of that.
And so if you have the
book, you can go find those.
You can also find 'em on
the good book company.com.
There's a little special area of
the website with some of these.
You can put in your email and get a, a.
Digital copy of these.
You can also scan the QR code
in the back of the book and get
some of these free resources.
'cause we really do believe, we see it
in scripture, we've seen it in our own
lives and we see it throughout church
history, that when we are loving our
neighbors and we're obeying the Lord, this
kind of comes into the posture chapter.
It's connected to that, that the
Lord works in these situations.
And in one simple way, when
you're doing these good deeds,
you are around unbelievers.
And just by proximity, you've got
opportunity to, to talk about the gospel.
And, and Doug, you, you wrap
up the chapter, we'll just
hit some highlights here.
You, you wrap up the chapter, but just
giving people, giving churches five
simple things, five practical steps that
they can just begin to cultivate a plan.
Because it's one thing to
have your heart stirred.
And I, I'm sure, and I've heard from
people reading the book, I know you
have too of, man, that was so helpful.
Like, oh man, thank you.
I needed to hear that.
I needed to read that.
But what you don't wanna do is be
affected and then just put the book
down and see no change and see,
you know, long term trajectory.
Um, so really, how, how can people
put some of this stuff into practice?
What, what's the five steps you lay, lay
out and, we'll, we'll wrap up this, this
Doug: Yeah.
Well, I think it's Jeff.
It's a recapitulation of our six Ps
to begin with, but as it pertains to
being salt and light, I thought it, you
know, we thought it wise to incorporate.
What we mean, what, what
we mean by living that out.
Because we didn't want people
to hear what we weren't saying.
We weren't saying good
works replaces evangelism.
We weren't saying good works replaces,
um, the gospel we were saying.
We weren't saying do that as a
form of trickery into them liking
us and then believing in Jesus.
No.
We were simply saying what the Bible
says, that love and good works go together
and that we have to cultivate, um, a
practical plan for living out good work.
So cultivate.
So of course I'm gonna be back at
Prayerfulness, cultivate prayerfulness.
Um, we need to be praying
as we're about good works.
We need to be about that because
we want our good works to do their
good work in the community and then
cultivate the people of God we ought
to get together at and plant and, and
come up with a concept, idea concept.
Um, budget to it, help to it.
In terms of good deeds, as
a pastor, I budgeted to, um.
To the good deeds.
And then on top of that, we would get
together to pray regular about this either
after church or during our prayer meeting.
During a week, this would
be highlighted as a prayer.
And then in that prayer, I'm not only
just in prayer cultivating them, but
I'm coaching them and explaining this so
they don't think they're loving deeds.
Good deeds.
Um, get convoluted with the
gospel and with evangelism,
and then cultivate a plan.
Man, we need to execute the city.
We need to study the city.
We need to find out where the
devil is busy in the city.
We need to find out where the
brokenness is in the city.
We need to find out where, um,
people are hurting and go to the
place where people are hurting.
That's the place where
the gospel's needed.
We go to the sick and remember, Jeff.
I've never been sick and somebody
said to me, do you want some medicine?
And to comfort you.
I never said, nah, I wanna stay sick.
And so we have to cultivate a plan
so that we're in the thick of it.
Of where the hurting and brokenness is.
So as we offer help, we actually
offer what they actually need.
There's nothing worse than I can remember.
Jeff.
One time this church wanted to come down
and do a mission trip at one church.
I was pastoring in Kensington, and they
said that they wanted to do a puppet
ministry because that's what they do.
I said, well, I don't
need puppet ministry.
I need help.
I, I, I got killers.
And yeah, and they says, well.
We do puppet ministry.
I says, well, I don't
need puppet ministry.
My people will steal your
puppets and have 'em on eBay and
sell your puppets back to you.
So we need to cultivate a plan for what
the people need from homelessness to
hunger, to single moms, to um, broken
families, to children, to addiction.
We need to cultivate a plan
to get these good works going.
Fourth is we gotta get
going and be patient.
We gotta be about being
patient with people.
We gotta have this crockpot philosophy of
ministry where we take our time and what
Alvin v um, um, what Eldon Villa Fanya
calls a burning, patience of patience
that keeps us hot after 'em, but yet, um,
patiently chilling, waiting on the Lord.
And then the fifth point is.
Be patient again.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: It's
Doug: So be patient and be patient
and we have to continue to be patient.
Um, and um, about the coming
to know Jesus of the people.
So often we go in with a
microwave ministry and we
leave out a crockpot calmness.
We need.
I'm not mad at microwave.
I love when people hear
the gospel and get saved.
I love that, but at the same time, I
still love it when I'm able to share the
gospel and wait on the beautiful work
of the Lord's stand here and stand still
and behold the salvation of the Lord.
I'd like watching the Lord over time work,
and I like watching him work quickly.
I like him both, but it's easy
to be excited about the quick.
It's harder to be patient.
So that's why we double up.
We double up on get going and be
patient and then be patient again.
So, yeah, that's our simple idea there for
a simple plan and um, yeah, man, and yeah.
Let it shine.
Let those good works shine.
Don't be scared to let 'em shine.
I'm, I'm not saying be braggadocious
and be swagged out on your swag, but
let the eternal swag, iciness of the
living God of Christ shine in the
community that people would look on
it, see our good works and glorify him.
But don't put no old,
dusty, good works out there.
Put some shiny good works of Christ
out there that they might see the,
the, the glorious glow of Jesus in our
hearts, in our lives, in our churches.
jeff_3_09-10-2024_143020: so good.
Doug, I, there's so many things
that Planters and existing churches,
sending churches and just, you
know, involved church leaders.
Uh, committed church members.
One thing you could start to do is to.
Drive around.
This is part of that cultivated plan
is as you talk about executing, knowing
your community, drive around with eyes
open, there are so many needs that you
can find that as you're driving around
and you see, ooh, a pregnancy center or,
or you see a, um, maybe a foster, um, a.
Closet where they provide clothes for
kids in foster care or other things are
like, I wonder if our church could be
involved in that, uh, community garden.
I mean, there's just all kinds of things
and you drive around and you look and
you see and go, maybe, maybe the Lord,
maybe God's putting that on my heart,
uh, because he wants me to be involved
and, and me to bring people to the
church and me start these, uh, have
me start some of these conversations.
Just see where the Lord has
you and see your community and
seek the welfare of the city.
You know, Jeremiah 29, and, and see.
See what God may have in store for you
as you do good works as you're salty and
bright, and see these as opportunities
to make that gospel known, uh, why you're
doing these, because of the gospel, and
that you want people to know Jesus too.
That's right.
Well, thank you for listening to this
episode of the Soul Winning Church.
We'll help you'll pick up the book, you
can find it on Amazon and wherever you buy
Christian books, and we'll see you next
time on the Soul Winning Church Podcast.
Doug: and peace.