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The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim: [00:00:02] Okay, so I'm here with Moira Cook and welcome to The Wellness Docket, Moira. I've been excited about getting you on for some time, and basically, I'm, I start seeing people on LinkedIn and posts that I like, and I'm like, oh, that's a great topic that we can look at. And so just a quick introduction is Moira is a former lawyer who practiced estate litigation in Toronto before going back to school to become a registered psychotherapist. She now works primarily with lawyers who are seeking to address burnout, anxiety, ADHD, addiction, and other issues. So I think you're the first therapist that we've had on this podcast. And so I'm excited to talk about, you know, your experiences from a lawyer point of view and compare it to your experiences as a therapist. And so welcome, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.
Moira: [00:00:56] Thank you so much for having me on.
Tim: [00:00:58] For sure. So I guess I'm going to start off just with a simple question is what kind of drew you to the law in the first place? And then how long did you spend practicing law?
Moira: [00:01:09] I guess, you know, like many people, I did my undergrad in something, I did it in sociology, and I wasn't sure sort of where that was going. I knew I could probably do it, write a good LSAT and, you know, probably get in. And that was sort of the main thing. Like I thought, oh, this is something I could do. Doesn't everybody aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor or, you know, something like that? There was certainly like a, I want to help people and I want to sort of be part of a more just society and sort of like more altruistic values there. But primarily it was because it offered like a solid profession to work into, as opposed to some of these undergrad degrees that are more, “okay, now what do you do? Do you go into academia?” Like, I don't even know what a sociologist does to be, you know.
Tim: [00:01:58] Right, Right. I was a political scientist, so I get it.
Moira: [00:02:04] I liked the the offer of, like, you graduate, you're going to get a job. It's going to happen. Right?
Tim: [00:02:10] Which is mostly true.
Moira: [00:02:12] Yeah. For the vast majority of us, for sure. Yeah.
Tim: [00:02:15] For sure. So what year did you start practicing? Like, what year did you graduate and start articling and practicing?
Moira: [00:02:21] I articled in 2006 or 7, and I got called in 2008.
Tim: [00:02:28] Okay. And how long did you practice for?
Moira: [00:02:30] Oh, about ten years.
Tim: [00:02:32] So why don't you tell us a little bit about what happened that kind of made you change course and move into psychotherapy.
Moira: [00:02:41] So I was practicing at a firm in Toronto, and they were actually very reasonable. It wasn't like, you know, some of the huge law firms with the like, you know, really high billable hour targets. It was reasonable billable targets. It was a medium-sized firm. So people were very kind and collegial. It wasn't like super stressed out environment and I was doing quite well and everything was going well until, which I think a lot of lawyers can identify with, like something happened in my personal life. In my case, it was the breakdown of a relationship, like a serious long-term relationship. And, you know, when that happened, everything else just sort of started to crumble. You know, I was falling behind on billable hours. I was just getting very anxious at work, you know, and it was just like a snowball effect from that point. I started drinking to deal with the anxiety and the constant thinking about files and, you know, all that sort of thing. So, I met someone new who was very supportive, and I just said I just couldn't take it any, like, I just had to stop. It was, really had ignored it to the point of crashing, really, you know, and I don't recommend that. Sort of trying to get everyone to not do that now. But yeah.
Tim: [00:04:03] In what year was that that you decided to make that change?
Moira: [00:04:06] 2015, 16, something like that. Yeah.
Tim: [00:04:09] And, did you know immediately that you wanted to go into the psychotherapy?
Moira: [00:04:16] No. When I left, I left sort of impulsively my firm, and I thought, oh, I'll just venture out on my own or something. Right? So I'll just take on clients. And I started to a little bit and it just, I realized, like, I just had, I had zero interest in doing… Every time I would try to pick up a file or do any sort of legal work, it was like, like I had become allergic to it or something. I used to love it. I used to love practicing law, and then all of a sudden it was like, no. So I took some time off. I had a kid, and then I focused on my mental health, you know, and recovery. And I just realized like, oh, like, this is something. Like talking to people, helping people, all the stuff I loved about being a lawyer without necessarily the work, the amount of work, or the stress or the pressure. There's a lot of overlap, actually, between law and therapy.
Tim: [00:05:14] Yeah, surprisingly. And originally when you made that decision to change, do you think… when was that you said it was like 2016, 17?
Moira: [00:05:24] Yeah.
Tim: [00:05:25] Did you know that there was a problem in the law practice? Because, you know, there's been a lot of reports that have come out since then. Did you have an inkling at that time that, you know, this was an area that was ripe for new practitioners?
Moira: [00:05:40] Originally, when I wanted to get back into, when I wanted to work in mental health, I wasn't specifically thinking of targeting lawyers as clients. But my husband is a lawyer, you know, I have a lot of connections in the legal industry, friends. And so I do… We always knew. I mean, we always sort of understood that there was a big issue in the legal industry, and I originally thought I wanted to focus on addiction in the legal industry. But then I realized that was maybe too niche, you know, and I needed to make it broader.
Tim: [00:06:11] So it does seem like those two go hand in hand, that there's often an addiction issue as well as the mental health problem as well.
Moira: [00:06:20] Sure. Yeah. There are a lot of issues. And the thing about being a therapist for lawyers is, you know, people will come to me because they're a lawyer and I'm a lawyer. But at the end of the day, like, you know, half or more of the stuff we talk about is actually not work-related at all. You know, it'll just be a family issue, whatever, family issues, health issues, stress, you know, everything.
Tim: [00:06:42] What do you find are the biggest areas that you hear the most about? Like, so first of all, what percentage of your practice is dealing with lawyers? And then of that percentage, what are the areas that you know, you hear the reoccurring themes?
Moira: [00:07:01] So almost all of my new clients going forward have been lawyers, or at least working in the legal industry or law students, that sort of thing. And that's great. There are definitely reoccurring themes. A lot of them have new diagnoses of like ADHD or autism or they suspect. So a lot of that, a lot of our work might focus on figuring that stuff out. Right? And like, how do you function? How do you manage? Do you have this, you know, condition? So that's sort of, like the neurodivergent lawyer is sort of one area. But, you know, the vast majority of people will also have concerns with always being like a constant fear, I think is a, is a thing that, you know, I see amongst a lot of my clients is just a fear. A fear of, you know, clients suing them or a fear of their boss getting angry and really firing them. This underlying sense of threat that they might at one point lose their job or lose their career, it seems like always present. And that's sort of sad. It makes me sad for them.
Tim: [00:08:11] Yeah, I can relate to that because, you know, I've been practicing now for close to 14 years. That's definitely something that you feel and I don't think, stop me if I'm wrong or if you agree with me on this, that society and clients and expectations don't exactly help that very much. Right? Like, I think there are, things are just in some ways out of control. It used to be a time where you'd send a letter and it would take weeks for somebody to get it, and then they'd respond. But now it's like immediate request for time almost all the time.
Moira: [00:08:49] You know, when I started, when I articled, they were handing out BlackBerrys, but like the little ones that you could only see, like a few lines of text and stuff. And this was new and exciting and a big deal. But that was sort of the beginning. And, you know, it's debatable. Some people say, well, I was expected to be at the office basically all the time. So this way I could get out of the office and be reachable, you know. So it sort of depends. But definitely being accessible 24/7 has not helped matters, I think.
Tim: [00:09:23] And so what kind of things have you found that are helpful to your lawyer clients specifically that kind of help them make… more deeply understand kind of what they're dealing with and how to overcome these problems? Because like some of the things that you're talking about, it's so baked into the profession that it's sometimes hard to coach one person or your clients on how to deal with that. Are there specific things that are really helpful for people that you've that you've kind of found?
Moira: [00:10:01] Everyone is so, everyone's so unique that it's hard to say, right? Like, some people come to you and you can just tell from the first session, this person needs to switch jobs. Like, there's no way that this person is going to thrive where they are now, right? So that's a completely different scenario than someone who, you know, runs their own practice and is struggling with, you know, just practice management issues or family life issues. So it's not like one solution for everybody, but they, it's sort of a, like a triage, like, let's figure it out. Do we need to look at shifting your career. Like do you need to make some changes in your career? Do you need to make some changes in your own life and like how you set boundaries and whether, you know, are you… do you have a life? Do you have a life outside of law? Right? And sort of looking at your values like, why have you why have you given up trying to have a life outside of law? Like, are you so exhausted? Do you need to focus? Some people just need to focus on getting enough sleep and getting enough, you know, food, healthy food and exercise and things like that. Like, it can be very different for different kinds of lawyers. And a lot of them thrive, like, thrive at their jobs and love it. It's just they need help with things outside of their jobs.
Tim: [00:11:21] Is there any one… I know everybody's very different, but is there any one thing that you see repeatedly that, you know, that's kind of, you've kind of said, oh, wait a second here, that that's something that just keeps coming up over and over and over again?
Moira: [00:11:38] Yeah, I think definitely people-pleasing behaviours. And I don't know if, if a lot of people, a lot of lawyers recognize how much of a people pleaser they are, because they, I don't know, they just, they sort of dismiss that. They're like, I'm not you know, I'm not trying to please people, but they don't realize that, like, not turning down, you know, a file that should be that they should turn away for their mental health or that, you know, not like reducing their hours or limiting things like that, that is people-pleasing behavior. You know, it's a constant need to be respected, admired, loved, whatever. You know, I think people-pleasing is a big one. And intellectualizing, like trying to intellectualize all of their emotions instead of just like recognizing. So getting in touch with like that part of their life I think is important for them.
Tim: [00:12:37] That's not necessarily something that we're very good at in the profession, is it?
Moira: [00:12:41] I'm not even good at it. And, you know, and I'm a therapist. So yeah, just instead of saying, like, I shouldn't feel this way, I have no right to feel upset or I don't… you know, And it's this intellectualizing of emotions, like, do you have a right to feel upset right now? No, we don't do that here. Right? We talk about, are you are you upset right now? You know, it doesn't matter whether you have a right to or you should or you shouldn't. Right? Like and so, like just identifying your own emotions and being able to sit with them instead of pushing them aside and intellectualizing them is a big one.
Tim: [00:13:14] And do you see a lot of progress with people who are able to, especially the lawyers who are able to get in touch a little bit more with our feelings?
Moira: [00:13:23] Yeah. Yeah, I do see like I do see, I do see a lot of progress with lawyers for sure. Like, I think because it's such a, it's a population of such bright people. Right? That like, once they make a decision to work on something, they're go-getters at that too, right? And at therapy. Yeah. It's great. So you can like, say to them, like let's have like a project this week where you try to step outside of your comfort zone and you try to do something new or whatever, and they'll actually do it, right? Which is great. Like that's for a therapist. That's happy time when people put effort into their journey. Right?
Tim: [00:14:04] Yeah for sure. And what kind of things do you most advise people to do?
Moira: [00:14:10] Journaling, even if it's like a one sentence entry. About a tough, you know, a tough experience, a tough day like, just so you could identify, like, your feelings. So getting in touch with that. So like, today, I was very overwhelmed, you know, because x, y, z. And that's basically it. Right? Like, that is so helpful. It's… that's a game changer, really. Meditating. Everyone hates it. Like, ask them to do it, no one wants to do it. But meditation is… you know, if you meditate for five minutes, it's like per day, it's like going to the gym, right? Like it just resets things and it clears out a bunch of stuff, like a bunch of emotions.
Tim: [00:14:53] Do you think that like, so you just said two things that I'm terrible at. Yeah. Like we're all like. So I think about this. I think I've tried journaling multiple times. I even have an app on my phone and it pops up and says, hey, would you like to talk about your trip to this restaurant today? And I'm like, nope, I don't want to talk about it. And the other thing with that is that even the meditation, do you think that the problem with the meditation is do you think people are doing it incorrectly or do they have the wrong? Like when you say that to me, I've immediately got this, ummmm…. like, you know, you've got to do that. And it, you know, there's like a hokey, there's like a pushback from me that says, oh, well, that's that's too hokey for me.
Moira: [00:15:41] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, it's like, I think I, I think I got over that thought like ten years ago, so, but I remember thinking it myself. I remember thinking like, that's too woo woo or whatever. Meditating in this day and age is so powerful because we literally, our brains are never off like, never from the moment we get up, it's like scrolling through and, you know, you were asking about themes. Like every single client I have, not even every single lawyer is probably, like, addicted to scrolling right now. Right? So meditation is just the opposite of that. Like, it's just finding a few minutes where your brain is just quiet, you know, and you're not constantly thinking about things, thinking about your work, thinking about whatever. It's rest in a way that's not sleep, but it's so powerful. And you can do it. I mean, you can. There are all sorts of apps and stuff that you can do, but you can also do it like, you know, we do a little meditation exercise where you're washing the dishes, you know, and I tell you, like talk about, wash the dishes, like with with focus, like with intent, like feel the soap in your hands. Feel the water, like don't think about anything. Let your mind clear. Don't think about anything else other than this act of washing the dishes. And it's little moments like that because I know people don't want to like, you know, even like turn on an app and sit there and do it. So it's like practicing the art of clearing your head during everyday activities is a little bit more palatable for some people.
Tim: [00:17:13] Right. And the journaling, what do you tell people that are like me? Because I assume there's lots of them out there, especially the guys. I don't, I don't… I feel like we don't. It just, I don't know what it is. I don't want people to read what I'm writing. Like there's like a fear, like it's too personal. Like you don't want to go there.
Moira: [00:17:34] I get it. For someone who is, like, super resistant to the idea of journaling, I say like, the purpose of journaling is just to… When we are stressed out, we identify with the stress too much. We're in the stress. The stress becomes us. When we journal and we write down I was stressed today because XYZ like we think about the stress on a meta level, right? We're thinking about thinking about it. So if you really don't want to journal, you're not ready to go there, if you have a partner, you could say to your partner out loud, you know, oh, I had a stressful day today because X, Y, and Z. Like, that's sort of the same thing. It's just instead of writing it down, you're saying it to somebody else.
Tim: [00:18:18] Yeah. That resonates with me. I, my wife and I do that all the time. And we're very lucky that it seems neither... We usually don't hit those same days, you know, all at the same time. Which is good if it's me that's having the day or it's her that's having the day, usually the other person is pretty, pretty steady most of the time. But I think the journaling thing is something that could help out a lot. Because we do write every day. We write other things. Why is it? I don't know why. I've got a block with it, and I haven't been able to get through that.
Moira: [00:18:55] Yeah. I mean, writing it down. People say like you can do a, like, a voice memo, or you can just say it out loud, right? And even if you just think about it, even if you just take a minute to say like, oh, I'm anxious today, where's all this anxiety coming from? Like what's going on? And just spending some time thinking about your own thoughts and emotions. That's really what it is. So it doesn't have to be pen to paper if that makes you uncomfortable, for sure.
Tim: [00:19:21] Right. What is without kind of going through details obviously, because we're in a world where your profession is confidential and lawyers are confidential, what are some of the hardest things that you've had to deal with as a psychotherapist?
Moira: [00:19:38] Trauma, definitely. Just like just because it's, you know, lawyers, it's not all necessarily work-related, but, like, so trauma. Histories of abuse are difficult to deal with. If you want to talk about in the legal context specifically, I even call it like work trauma. Like if you were fired in front of colleagues or something, right? Something like where you felt for a moment that your whole, like, legal career was being like, you know, yanked out from under you. That can be really hard to recover from.
Tim: [00:20:16] And in the legal profession, what are the biggest sources of trauma that you see?
Moira: [00:20:22] Like, specifically related to the legal profession? I would just say repeated, like it's more of a chronic issue than. Right? So trauma when we think about trauma, it can be like, you know, one really bad incident, which of course there are, you know, like I said, getting fired or having a judge yell at you in front of a client or something like that can be very upsetting. But for other people, it's just like not getting hired back from articling, that is like really huge. It's a really big one, you know. And it's just really hard to get someone's confidence back after something like that. So, yeah. So like career set, big career setbacks and just feeling like, why can't I do this? Like everyone else seems to be able to function. What's, you know, what's the issue with me? When you fumble like if you some, some people will, you know, have an addiction and people find out about it or, you know, they have to take a leave of absence from work or something like that, right? And that's a huge career setback, reset, you know, whatever, where you have to deal with now everybody… like everybody's looking at me and thinking, oh, you know, they've got this problem. It's not true. Like people, you know aren't necessarily as judgmental as we think in our heads that they are about us. But it can be hard. We like to think like the whole world is thinking about us, and that's why we become so self-conscious. But, you know, that's a common, a common theme that comes up. And I just say, you know, when you're thinking that way, your focus is on you and like, what is everyone thinking about you? And so instead of, like, try to shift your focus outward, you know, you're at a party and you're self-conscious. Stop thinking about what other people are thinking about you and shift your focus to the other people, you know?
Tim: [00:22:12] Right. Yeah, and so looking back a little bit on your transition from your career, do you feel that you made the right choice?
Moira: [00:22:22] I mean, look, I… there was parts of the law that I, practicing law that I really loved. And I would sort of, I have been thinking to include or add like mediation back into my practice. So it's not like I'm done with law or I hate it or anything like that. Right? So, did I make the right choice? I love what I do now, it's enjoyable. It's, you know, all, almost all parts of it are enjoyable except like administrative tasks. But, you know, I really love what I do now, so I'm happy about that. You know, financially it's not, let's be realistic, it's not anywhere near law. But, you know, it's still a very fulfilling job.
Tim: [00:23:04] As long as you're happy too, right?
Moira: [00:23:06] Yeah. But I see why. You know, it's not like realistic to say if you're a partner at a Bay Street firm, you're not going to necessarily like, it's not the same thing to quit your job and become a therapist or become something else. Right? Like there's just, you can't… And that's one thing that definitely holds lawyers stuck or feeling stuck is that there's like almost no other job that you could get that would make the same money for you. Right? So it's like the golden handcuffs idea, right? So yeah, for sure, as long as you're happy. But you know, if you're, you know, I'm blessed and lucky to have a partner who, who helps with, you know, who helps to support me. But if you're if you're making a lot of money and supporting a whole family, you can feel stuck. You can feel like, well, there's no way I can get another job that I like more, but that pays me like half of what's paying me now. Right? Like.
Tim: [00:23:58] What do you, what are some things about the culture of the legal profession that particularly bothered you, when you were in the profession more closely?
Moira: [00:24:12] You know, it's funny because working in estate litigation, it's a pretty, it was a pretty small bar, and people were pretty polite. You know, they were polite and they were generally quite nice. So I feel like a bit of a like, you know, like a wimp to say, oh my God, I was really, you know, affected by the adversarial nature of, you know, communications and emails and letters, but I, but it's true. I was. I was like, really, I got to a point where I was like, tired of like every email being like cranky problem to solve, right?
Tim: [00:24:46] Right. And govern yourself accordingly.
Moira: [00:24:49] Yeah. Even if it wasn't like, okay, this person's not furious, but it was like, again, chronic, like relentless, you know, like every day, just problem, problem, problem. It wears on you. So I think that that's sort of a hard, it's a hard thing to manage and to deal with and to be like… if you're if you're a sensitive soul, you know, to be like the kind of person who doesn't take that to heart and like, let it let it bother them.
Tim: [00:25:20] Yeah. For sure. So here is a question that I ask everybody when we do these interviews is, if there was one thing that you could change about the legal profession, what would it be?
Moira: [00:25:34] I would just like, want people that the lawyers especially like the leaders in the legal profession, people responsible. I would want everyone to just, like, relax a little bit. Like the sense of urgency, the sense of like, you know, everything has to be done yesterday and perfectly. And, you know, it's… the vast majority of cases are dealing with financial loss. Right? And so it's not the end of the world kind of stuff. But we have a culture where we're, you know, we're stressing each other out for no good reason.
Tim: [00:26:09] Yeah. It's almost like we start off with the feeling that it's important, right? Like this is an important profession. And from that grounding, everything that kind of comes from that has to be important. And you have to deal with it a certain way. And even sometimes moments of levity get ruined because, you know, you're expected to be so serious that you know, you can't get away from that.
Moira: [00:26:37] Mhm. Yeah. And it's really everywhere. I mean there are some people that you meet like certain lawyers that you meet that are much more chill, relaxed, like nice. You know, never… they'll tell you like don't worry about it. Like this is not life or death, you know. And like more people like that would be helpful, I think, to, you know, to realize, like, we have lives outside of this job, you know, and we should value that, too. Like, we need to be well-rounded people so that it can be something that you want to do for the rest of your life. And you can do. Not this like constant state of panic that you're in for, you know, I don't know how long is the average legal career? 40, 50 years, 60 years.
Tim: [00:27:23] Right. And is there something that you would tell somebody from the other side of things looking back on kind of from a legal career now as a psychotherapist, is there something that like that you've really changed your perspective from that change?
Moira: [00:27:43] Yeah, a lot. But primarily, I would say, like, try really hard to figure out what you want and why. Because the culture will try, well, will change your mind. Like, the culture will tell you what you want if you're not, if you're not, like, set on what you want and you have a path. So figure that out. I don't know if you can figure it out beforehand, but you know, be very clear. Like, this is what I want and this is why. And not… because otherwise. Yeah. Like, you know, they will tell you this is what you should want. And it's hard to resist when you don't know what you want yourself.
Tim: [00:28:24] Yeah, I think that's true. And I think one of the big areas is the type of practice. Right? Like, you know, it's so easy to get swayed one way or another, depending on, you know, how much you can earn in a certain type of practice and things like that, that, you know, in a certain… You've got to learn to draw those boundaries, right? Like a certain client comes in and wants you to do that. If you're pretty firm, like, hey, I don't do that and I'm not going to do that, right, then I think that that's that's pretty important. But it is alluring sometimes, isn't it?
Moira: [00:28:57] Yeah. And I think that, you know, in law school, you know, they, they sort of convince everyone to, you know, do the OCIs thing, like try to get the big law firm thing and then you're there and you sort of get put into a rotation or, you know, whatever sort of practice area they want to hire you for, or you find yourself just applying to every firm that you can possibly imagine, and you find one firm, and then it's like, then you're an insurance defense and you don't know why, how you got there. Right? Like it's sort of that's a similar thing. So if you're starting your own practice, definitely you want to be clear about what kind of law do you want to do? Why? Is it the kind of thing that you can handle? You know, family law lawyers, for example, like it would be best to know if you're the kind of personality that can deal with that level of conflict, like emotional conflict, because it's high, right? Emotions run high there. So yeah, so if it's going to bother you, maybe do something different, you know?
Tim: [00:30:03] Yeah, I'm one of the lucky ones in that, that I do a lot of family law, and most of the time it doesn't bother me, which is like, I'm not sure why. I don't know why, if it's wired a certain way, but it doesn't.
Moira: [00:30:16] It's a personality thing, like I always say, like I wish instead of the LSAT or maybe in addition to that, they would like do a personality test. Right?
Tim: [00:30:26] Right.
Moira: [00:30:27] It's, people have different personalities, like some people, you know, some people can get like a really nasty letter and they can like laugh it off. Like they'll just think like, this person's weird and they'll just, you know, it'll brush, brush off them. But some people like it stays with them and they get upset. And these are just different personalities telling themselves different stories about what this letter means. But yeah.
Tim: [00:30:49] Yeah, no, that makes sense. Like, I think your advice is really good on that, that people should from, from early on, figure it out what you want to do and connect with that instead of kind of letting yourself get swayed one way or another.
Moira: [00:31:05] Yeah, yeah. I mean, and there's so much, you know, like one thing like I would have done had I been more clear thinking, I guess, at the time, is like really fully explored the whole area of, like, what law can offer, because I think that we tend to think like, if I'm not doing my current job or something really adjacent to that job, then there's nothing else, right? So there's so many different kinds of jobs within the legal industry that, you know, you can do that might be very well suited for you, you know?
Tim: [00:31:37] Right. It's hard at the time to think that you have those options, isn't it?
Moira: [00:31:42] Yes. I don't know why. You know, like, I think we go into getting a legal degree thinking like, oh, it's a law degree. Like it's, you know, a door to many worlds. And then somehow we get into, we're in law and then we think, like, you can't even leave your own practice area. Right?
Tim: [00:32:00] Right. Yeah. I think that's, there's a little bit of an ego thing there for people, and they get so locked in to the identity of who they are and what they do that it's pretty hard to walk away from that.
Moira: [00:32:14] Yes. Yeah. The identity thing is huge, right? Exactly. If I'm not a lawyer, what am I?
Tim: [00:32:21] Did you feel that way when you left?
Moira: [00:32:23] Yes, of course, I did. It took me a while to realize that that was, you know, the discomfort was associated with that loss of identity. But I did, and I think part of the reason why I have looked to get like lawyers as clients is because it like heals that part for me a little bit because it says, like, I didn't just throw away my legal career or my law degree. You know, I'm putting it to good use because, you know, it's almost like I have an instant connection with the clients that come to me because we have been through the same stuff. Right? Like the same process, sort of.
Tim: [00:33:05] Do you find that they, your clients understand, like do you think they connect on a deeper level with that? Because you do get it, right? Like they can talk about certain fears that they have or, you know, whether it's regulation or oversight or the fear of being sued by somebody or, you know, there's a myriad of them. Do you think that that helps you connect with people better?
Moira: [00:33:32] Oh, yeah, for sure. And a lot of clients come to me and they say, like, you know, I've been to therapy and I had a therapist and they were lovely, but they didn't get it, right? They would just be like, well, just don't answer your boss's email at 9:00. And it's like, oh no, that's not helpful because I’ve got to, right? Like it's so, it's just little things like that, but definitely a sort of camaraderie. Right? Like, you know, of, well, we did the law school thing. Maybe we went to the same law school or we, you know, did the whole process of getting hired or finding a niche or whatever, right? Like, so there's definitely like a bit of that and just, I mean, my clients could explain to me a case they're working on and I pretty much will get it right. Whereas like, maybe their spouses, they can't ever do that. I mean, although a majority of my clients are married to other lawyers.
Tim: [00:34:26] I don't know how they make that work. I'm so happy I'm married to somebody who isn't a lawyer.
Moira: [00:34:30] Yeah. Yeah. They make it work, I guess. You know, it's hard, though, for sure.
Tim: [00:34:37] Well, good. Well, thank you so much for joining me more. I really appreciate your time. And we'll definitely put up a link to your counseling when we… when this goes live. Because I think that that's… that really resonates with me is that I think a lot of lawyers would appreciate somebody who's not only a counselor, but is a lawyer and understands kind of the day-to-day grind of what they go through.
Moira: [00:35:04] Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I certainly, you know, relate to them. So I hope they relate to me too. Yeah.
Tim: [00:35:11] Yeah for sure. I mean keep on keeping on what you're doing. And you've, you know, I read a bunch of posts and I was like, oh, I really this, this person seems to get what it's like. And I think that's really important.
Moira: [00:35:23] Thank you so much.