EP 67 Rod Lacey, The Future of HR Consulting, and Professionally Evil Organizations

Rod Lacey joins the guys and discusses the reality of consulting work.  They discuss what it’s like to be a consultant, the difficulties, the necessity of sales as a consultant, and the drawbacks of having a seat at the table.   What is the future of consulting? And what it takes to make it as a consultant are answered here. 


Learn more about Sunstone HR at: https://sunstonehr.com/
Learn more about Rod Lacey at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/therodlacey/
Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven "Big Deal" Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the Books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast


Learn more about Dyno Outfitters at: https://www.utahviaferrata.com/
Learn more about MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/
Learn more about Thrive Life Project at: https://www.thrivelifeproject.org/

Creators and Guests

Host

Fantastic Tony Benjamin

I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.

Host

Steven "Big Deal" Smith

Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.

What is The HR Life Podcast?

The HR Life Podcast is a show about the work-life experience of those of us in Human Resources and business leadership. This long-form podcast is a conversation, casual, and not always the corporate line. Hosts and guests touch on everything from serious or even controversial topics to the absurdity of modern American business practices. Your hosts are Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of The Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven J. Smith, Author of The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction and all-around important guy. Guests include the best minds in the HR world. Join the show weekly.

Tony Benjamin (00:15.001)
Welcome to the HR Life Podcast, a podcast about the work-life experience of those of us in human resources and business leadership. Your hosts are fantastic Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of the Grange, strategic HR Consulting, and Steven Big Deals Smith, who is so important that he played clarinet with a polka band in Home Alone. Hey Steve!

Steven Smith (00:38.936)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (00:39.693)
Ha ha ha.

Steven Smith (00:41.379)
Wow, it just gets better and better.

Tony Benjamin (00:44.467)
Well, you know, I I am I am I wrong?

Steven Smith (00:48.205)
Well, so so so for those that may not know this, did you know John Candy actually plays the clarinet or actually played it? And and and he play he actually played it on Home Alone and I play clarinet. I play clarinet all through high school. I was in the marching band and all the things and and and and yeah, so we had to learn the Home Alone music one year and and all the things, right? So I played all of that. And so I so what's funny though is it

Tony Benjamin (00:51.473)
Right.

Steven Smith (01:14.029)
That was not the particular song that we played in the band, but I chose to learn that song for the polka because at the time I was a huge fan of Weird Al and I just loved all his polka side stuff. Like you always do the polka songs, right? No, it didn't matter. It it didn't ma but he did play accordion. I would play it in the background while, you know. So there you go.

Rod Lacey (01:26.777)
I don't know.

Tony Benjamin (01:26.867)
Yeah, yeah. But then you gotta have someone play accordion with you too, because it's not funny unless it's accordion. Yeah, yeah. I see. Okay. Yeah, you're you're you're right. There there you go. Well

Steven Smith (01:41.591)
You know, all those radio stations that play polka music all the time. You just recorded on your cassette tapes and you had a playlist. I mean, that's how you did it.

Tony Benjamin (01:47.575)
that's right. That's right. Because there was a million polka there's a million polka w radio stations at the time. I I I was listening to David Bowie and Queen and you were listening to polka music. Yeah, that's exactly right. Whatever. Th there you go. Stretch that time, peoples. Everybody, we wanna welcome in with us today Rod Lacey.

Steven Smith (01:53.621)
Absolutely. They're all over the country. So

Steven Smith (02:10.266)
yeah.

Rod Lacey (02:10.349)
Thank you.

Tony Benjamin (02:11.723)
All right, the crowd goes wild. Welcome into the podcast, Rod.

Rod Lacey (02:16.867)
Thank you. That's the best reception I've ever received in my entire life.

Steven Smith (02:21.805)
Wait, wait. You mean your students don't do that for you when you come to class every day?

Rod Lacey (02:25.618)
no. No, and if they do it's an obligation because they know I'm grading their papers and things, but no, not quite. Not quite like this.

Steven Smith (02:33.259)
Nice, nice.

Tony Benjamin (02:34.577)
Well, if you want I can send you the sound effect, so you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's right.

Rod Lacey (02:37.483)
I that would be helpful. What an ego boost. Thank you.

Steven Smith (02:39.651)
Well yeah, and then you can plan before every class gets started and you can tell them, Look, guys, I've got my own studio audience, so here we go.

Rod Lacey (02:42.339)
I'll do that. Yeah.

And every time I walk into a room, just that'd be great. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (02:47.282)
You know what?

Steven Smith (02:49.925)
there you go. There you go. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (02:51.773)
Steve Steve and I are going to be presenting at at Work Elevated this year about AI. And I just had an idea, Steve, Steve, that we're gonna play that. They're gonna do their intro for us where the pr you know, the where the volunteer, and then we'll play that. I love that idea. There I go. Okay. That works for me. I you know, you know what, you think about it, Steve. That crowd never claps for you and I. It never claps for you and I. It's always the guest. Like Rod's a Rod's huge. He's he's a name.

Steven Smith (03:03.328)
We're gonna play it.

Nice, nice.

Steven Smith (03:13.032)
It's the only way to pump Tony up.

Steven Smith (03:19.481)
True it's true. That's true.

Tony Benjamin (03:21.883)
He's a name, and so you know, they always cheer for people like him, but never for you and I, even though you're a big deal. And that just occurred to me there's Rod on the podcast and you, and then there's me. Like one of these three things does not belong. Holy crap. So no, no, no, no. No, I'd feel I'd feel more inferior then. so Rod, welcome to the show. We're glad to have you today. I think it's really exciting, you know.

Steven Smith (03:28.065)
It's all right. I'll get over it.

Steven Smith (03:36.089)
Do you want me to leave, Tony? Is that what you're saying?

Rod Lacey (03:40.784)
Ha ha ha I'll opt out.

Tony Benjamin (03:50.759)
You and I have bumped into each other and we have a networking group that that we're part of together and all that that you organize. Like that's some really cool stuff. But now that you're on the podcast, wow, that's like a feather in our cap for sure.

Rod Lacey (04:02.573)
Thank you. It's very kind. It's an honor to be invited.

Steven Smith (04:05.293)
Yeah, you know, you is it Eric? Is it Eric Dykes? Is that his name? I'm trying to remember the name now. Yeah, he he's been messaging me a multiple multiple times now. It's been kind of fun to to follow him and and see what he does. So so maybe we'll have to get him on the podcast here sometime soon too. But but he's he's been fun. He he shares some great stuff with me. So I'd I appreciate it. So yeah, yeah.

Rod Lacey (04:09.868)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (04:20.514)
He's great.

Rod Lacey (04:24.886)
Yeah, he's got it figured out.

Tony Benjamin (04:30.119)
Well, there you go. I was gonna say something sarcastic. I'll c no, no, I'll I I was gonna say something sarcastic. I'll keep that to myself. So but yeah, so so Rod That's right, she can hear through the walls. Then yeah, and when she catches up, 'cause she's almost caught up with us now. She got a little behind but she's almost caught up now, she'll say something.

Steven Smith (04:31.161)
Tony's all silent.

Rod Lacey (04:33.714)
Ha

Steven Smith (04:37.475)
That's good, that's good. Your wife might get on you later about that, so. Mm-hmm.

Steven Smith (04:49.017)
I'm gonna be honest, I'm surprised she hasn't like j run into the room yet and like knocked you on the head or something and during our recordings. I just I don't know. Special request maybe w next time she listens to this.

Tony Benjamin (04:54.631)
Ha ha ha.

I think there's been a couple of t I know that when she listens at the gym that there's been a couple of times where she's come home and told me I've been wrong, but so and you were right, sweetheart. You were right. So that's all I can say. Yes, yes. well Rod, tell us about you a little bit. I know you're the founder of Sunstone HR, right? Okay. So tell us about you, how you got there, and how you got into HR, like

Steven Smith (05:05.465)
Nice, nice, yeah.

Rod Lacey (05:06.517)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (05:11.038)
Always, always.

Rod Lacey (05:19.448)
That's right.

Tony Benjamin (05:26.983)
Did someone hit you on the head as a child and that led to that or like what what how'd you get into it?

Rod Lacey (05:32.268)
Yeah, it's g fair questions. Let me start with kind of the origin story. yeah, I wish I wish it was that cool. I mean, it's I was a warehouse worker and hey, my my father worked for the railroad and he was a kind of a shop foreman. And my naive mind going into school, going into college was I wanted to be the boss, not

Steven Smith (05:36.374)
Yay.

Tony Benjamin (05:37.637)
A spider, a nuke a radioactive spider.

Rod Lacey (05:54.285)
the underlings, so why not study management, right? That qu that would automatically qualify me never to report to anybody if I studied management. And so study management and in that I really liked marketing and I really liked HR.

And so my emphasis with my undergraduate was HR. And then I honestly feel like I really lucked out getting my first HR job not long after I graduated. The university where I studied hired me into their HR department. Very bureaucratic process. I should never have even been interviewed. In fact, I'll give you this. They asked me in that interview back in a long time ago, I'll give you the year, what are the protected classes? Guess who couldn't answer that question as the new college graduate?

Tony Benjamin (06:24.049)
wow.

Rod Lacey (06:38.842)
And so I still got the job. Like I said, I just come a long way. I said I could answer that question today barely.

Tony Benjamin (06:40.242)
Over it.

Tony Benjamin (06:47.623)
Well, I'll say this too, it was simpler back then. The list was shorter.

Rod Lacey (06:50.346)
It wa it wa yeah, it was a shorter list, but I still failed. And so fell into my first HR job there for again, I should never even been interviewed because of the bureaucracies and checks and things that that state employer.

Steven Smith (06:50.561)
It was simple.

Rod Lacey (07:06.722)
But then you know found that I I loved it, it fit me, but in the governmental space I was a little bored because I'm a creative. And so I jumped into more complex, dynamic industries, largely privately held or private equity held, ran you know my career for for 25 years, and then like so many other professionals, lost my job. And it was it was

Again, ever it a layoff is on everybody's resume almost anymore. And it's just it didn't used to be that way. It's just organizations are restructuring changes and that's happened to me a couple of times, but I found myself with a good severance package.

Tony Benjamin (07:40.531)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (07:50.1)
And having sat on executive teams helping other people build their companies for decades, and I thought, you know, why not do my own thing? And another thing that got me excited about doing my own thing again is I'd sat on these executive teams learning everything there was to know about that business, its products, its strategy, and I kind of had to step out of the HR day-to-day to advise at that C level. My team had all the fun. I really felt like

do my team was having a blast doing HR stuff under my oversight, but they got to do what I love doing. And so stepping into a consulting role put me back on the front lines with a chance to like roll my sleeves up and do the HR work that I loved again. And so that's what I've been doing.

Steven Smith (08:38.945)
Nice.

Tony Benjamin (08:39.827)
Well, yeah, no, I I understand that. I was my wife and I, we were having this conversation the other day and while we were driving and we decided that I was like, I can't it's very hard for me to picture myself going to back to work for somebody else. It's like it's really difficult to to muster the excitement to be excited over somebody else's dream again. You know, and I like my customers, don't get me wrong, but meaning by helping them I'm helping me too, right? And that's the joy of it.

Rod Lacey (09:01.465)
Yeah, and I I I feel the same way.

Rod Lacey (09:08.701)
yeah.

Tony Benjamin (09:09.692)
But that yeah, I it it's very hard to think about that.

Rod Lacey (09:13.081)
Yeah, I think f for me, I I've shared this with others. And and to be fair, when I first entered consulting, I was thinking maybe I want to interview for that full-time job because it's really easy when someone just gives you 40 to 50 hours worth of work and you show up, collect a paycheck, right? Benefits are there. That you know that's that's the fast track to income.

Steven Smith (09:28.961)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (09:29.351)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (09:35.395)
But a as I was reflecting on this, I've I've had so much fun doing what I'm doing. I literally can't think of the job offer for any organization that would would pull me out of what I'm doing today. It's just

It's not that there's not volatility, there's there's challenges like any other pit thing, but man, I love it. It's just it's a good it's a good thing to be doing, influencing and impacting multiple organizations at the same time. so yeah, I d I I feel like you do, Katoni. I d I don't know what would get me back into corporate, but I did start this journey very open to both alternatives and the consulting took off and like so many other candidates out there, the job application process did not.

It was it's been bad for a while, especially at those upper levels.

Tony Benjamin (10:25.703)
Yeah, yeah. No, and Steve and I we in our very early days of the podcast, we interviewed Steve Jaffey and his his book about being laid off. And he brought this to our attention from some stats in his book. And I really the more I watch this all over, the more I really believe this is true. To your point, right, you said it it used to be that that not everybody went through a riff, but almost everybody has been through a riff now. and it's Pardon me. it's becoming quite

Steven Smith (10:55.149)
He's lost his voice, guys. I mean he it it just took the air out of him.

Tony Benjamin (10:56.251)
No no. Yeah. I'm all choked up.

Rod Lacey (10:56.882)
Give him a somebody somebody say strategic.

Tony Benjamin (11:03.079)
There we go. Thank you. That helped. no, but we you know, it used to be rare or not wasn't a typical thing, right? And now it's a very, very, very typical thing. Most of us go through that. And and this is my own take. You can tell us what you think, Rod, but I think it's much more acceptable now from a financial point of view for people to say, let's lay off twenty percent of our workforce.

Rod Lacey (11:14.104)
That's true.

Steven Smith (11:19.032)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (11:31.153)
Like it there's there's no giant regret in that. It's just business. it's just business. And and my the longer I do this, the more I think that is a failure on your part to plan. And the response to that, of course, is always, well, the e the economy shifted. I couldn't predict that. Okay, yes. But but just to tell you, it's you could have planned with the possibility that the market would turn right.

Rod Lacey (11:57.558)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (11:57.787)
And you'd grow just a little bit slower. But we're all got it in, you know, when whether it's private equity or it's the street, whatever it is, or VCs or whatever, you're showing, hey, I I'm growing, and you show that by revenue and headcount. And man, I'm cool if I grew by, you know, fifty employees this year and I doubled my revenue and blah, blah, blah. That sounds really cool. Until until the market shifts slightly and then you're overextended. So

I don't know, it's can you tell it's a pet peeve? Like yeah.

Rod Lacey (12:28.312)
No, I no, and I'll agree with you, Tony. I w I will say this. I agree a hundred percent that back in the day, back when we were receiving paper resumes, you know, just if we go all the way back, if you'd been laid off, it was a black mark on your resume and

Steven Smith (12:29.529)
I could hardly tell, Tony.

Tony Benjamin (12:32.827)
Mm.

Rod Lacey (12:46.41)
on the employer side, we were like freaked out. Well I wonder what was wrong with Steven. You know, just why would they choose him? But anymore, I think we need to get past the the the the little asterisk in our professional lives.

And and when we have that gap on the resume, I was laid off. And not and not say, you know, well, the employer and I would chose to go different directions. Let's let's skip the positioning. We've you know, everyone's been in that situation. It it is is way too mainstream. There's way too many spreadsheets making decisions without consideration for people. And Tony, chances are that I if if

the I guess the HR pros or other on that listening to this podcast ran their teams like I r I ran my team lean all the time. even when budgets would have authorized additional headcount. I ran my team lean because I didn't want to have to lay them off.

Tony Benjamin (13:38.983)
Yep, yeah.

Rod Lacey (13:39.328)
And I found myself cautioning other departments when I saw them rapidly staffing up. Are you sure you want to do this? Because we did we can't control the market. We can't control industry. But yeah, I ran lean my whole career because I didn't w ever want to have to have that conversation with my people.

Steven Smith (13:40.193)
Mm.

Steven Smith (13:56.024)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (13:56.167)
Yep, yeah, no, and I th I think that's great. And you worked at one eight hundred contacts too, right? Yeah, yeah. So well okay, so first of all, that's really cool. They had a great reputation for their culture. at least when I was aware of stuff and all that, probably when you were there. so talk to us about that, what it was like to work there, and then and then I like the idea of kind of tying that into what you were just saying. What does that mean to to run lean in in that kind of an environment?

Rod Lacey (13:59.787)
I did.

Rod Lacey (14:06.487)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (14:06.733)
Yeah, they did.

Rod Lacey (14:20.578)
That's a great question.

So yeah, we we won every imaginable culture award, you know, work-life balance, wellness, all these things when I was there. And I I can't take credit for creating it all, but I certainly had the support of leadership in driving programs, creating new things. Even when we built a new corporate office, you know, we installed pickleball courts outside, sand volleyball courts, we had a gym, we had a subsidized restaurant, and the it just they allowed us to create an amazing employee experience, which was huge for retention.

recruiting was a piece of cake and yeah the brand carried itself for the most part we didn't we we we had issues like every other employer you know but we acted with the employees as a priority and we we were very conscious I would say of about staffing you know it was it was

Steven Smith (14:53.165)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (15:15.692)
Did did we ever do any layoffs when I was there? I was there nine years, which is almost unheard of. That sounds stable, right? But nine years and five owners. And so it was not it was not as it wasn't like the traditional nine years.

Tony Benjamin (15:22.627)
Wow.

Steven Smith (15:25.536)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (15:28.199)
Yeah, I didn't know that.

Rod Lacey (15:32.204)
We I mean when I was leaving, we were shifting the distribution structure where we're kind of following Amazon and opening centers all across the US. We did do some cutbacks then. But for the most part, as we evolved as a business, we were able to move people around, train, position, you know, so that we were able to avoid I guess the layoff is a sign of a company failure. Tony, I think you called that out already. that's what makes it such a

I won't be vulgar, but an awful meeting for an HR professional to have. It's worse than a firing somebody because the consequences are the exact same, but it's not the fault of the individual. It's the c and s yeah, that's right. Yeah. So anyway, that's yeah, we

Tony Benjamin (16:08.199)
A lot worse.

Steven Smith (16:10.243)
Yep. But there's no re yeah, there's no reason, right? Or at least no valid reason in that sense. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Rod Lacey (16:21.844)
It's not there are ways to be to I guess to minimize the potential damage for that with just prudent business decisions. You can't forecast everything, but you can you can minimize the risk by being alert aware and just

Tony Benjamin (16:31.475)
Right, right.

Steven Smith (16:35.081)
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. All the three jobs that I've had over the last twenty two years, I've been laid off on all three of them. So like every all three of them. And and what's interesting, this last one six months ago, the month before, I had had the best month of my entire career there, which is very interesting to say. So so to to say that I went on a good note is it was it was definitely there.

Rod Lacey (16:42.54)
Ha ha ha.

Steven Smith (17:00.177)
And so so like you said, I I don't think a lot of layoffs are are due to the failure of the employee always. I I think there are some failures from the organizational perspective that that I don't know. Th there's no accountability for it. It's just like is like Tony said, it's just business. And so that's how they treat it. So

Rod Lacey (17:17.687)
They are great.

Tony Benjamin (17:17.907)
Well and and Rod you said it right. It it's a line on a spreadsheet, right? It's a line on a spreadsheet and they're looking at it. And and CFOs don't ever see what Steve calls the the layoff tax, right? yeah.

Steven Smith (17:21.656)
Mm-hmm.

Rod Lacey (17:23.832)
It's fast return.

Steven Smith (17:31.021)
Yep. Well I didn't I didn't f I didn't coin that phrase. I stole that from Ryan Kohler who who who mentioned that. And so yeah, yeah. But that's what it is. Mm mm.

Rod Lacey (17:31.032)
My gosh, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (17:37.159)
Yeah, but

But I I i i i as the CFOs don't see that sort of stuff. They they they don't. They see line items on a on a spreadsheet and so do, you know, private equity and venture capitalists and that they just see those sorts of things. I understand why that is, right? I I understand why that is. I don't agree with it though. Right. So

Rod Lacey (17:57.964)
What if what would change if when those decisions were made, those decision makers had to have the meetings that we hold following that spreadsheet or have a decision? I mean, seriously, I mean just it is never gonna happen. That is our job on the HR side is to we we've gotta deliver the good news and the bad.

Steven Smith (18:06.988)
Right?

Rod Lacey (18:16.095)
But would that ex cause I know how I have tried to avoid those discussions. It's my least favorite employment discussion. And I've done things so that I could minimize the impact on my team. Would those executives have made different decisions knowing that they would have to conduct those meetings? I think they would.

Steven Smith (18:22.861)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (18:33.687)
I thi I think they would too. Yeah, I think they would too. That that's a very interesting point.

Tony Benjamin (18:33.861)
A lot of yes. Yeah. I No that's that that is exactly let's let's do this. Let's take a quick break. I'm gonna do our first read here. And then I have a question about all the Star Wars helmets behind you, Rod. so okay, here we go. Sorry, I had a hard time finding it. Okay. Looking for a team building experience, your employees will actually talk about

Steven Smith (18:50.756)
Ha ha

Tony Benjamin (19:01.969)
Dino Outfitters in Vernal, Utah offers guided trips on the epic new Ashley Gorge Via Ferrata. Help your team build trust, confidence, and real connection all while hanging out on the side of a cliff. Reach out to build a custom experience at UtahViaferrata.com. And shout out to Amber at Dino Outfitters and their incredible crew. They are hosting us on the 11th, which is just coming up a week and a half away.

Steven Smith (19:24.867)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (19:29.893)
We're excited about this. By the time this drops, we will have already gone on it and hopefully shared some pictures. So but shout out to Amber and her team. Thanks for the support. We appreciate it very much. Okay. Me neither.

Steven Smith (19:35.555)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (19:40.545)
Absolutely. I can't wait. I can't wait. We're gonna I'm gonna record audio from the side of a cliff. I can't

Tony Benjamin (19:45.701)
Yep, yeah. We're all w hanging out on the side of a cliff. okay, Rod. So let's talk about important stuff now. The helmets behind you.

Rod Lacey (19:52.567)
Okay.

Steven Smith (19:53.529)
Not that your story's not important. My word.

Rod Lacey (19:55.508)
No, no, it's s Star Star Wars is way more important than my story. no, I I'm an I'm a nerd. most people don't rec recognize that, but yeah, yeah. So I

Tony Benjamin (19:56.007)
That's right.

Steven Smith (19:59.673)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (20:05.885)
Hello, nerd. Yeah.

Rod Lacey (20:08.745)
I enjoy the whole Star Wars saga. I mean I I saw the original in the theater as as a as a boy, you know, and but my covet hobby became three D printing. So whenever you know, and so I there was a really noble pursuit first because I learned that if you printed these these masks and cut you could cut those was it whatever the the the filters were you cut into six pieces, and this is when well there's a shortage of those. Cut into six pieces, use the same mask and it would last, you know, six

Tony Benjamin (20:19.982)
Rod Lacey (20:38.711)
shifts in your in your ER. So I started printing masks that could be used for this and no one ever needed them because they figured that out. So then I started printing Star Wars helmets and other trinkets. My whole family moved in with me and my kids, their kids, and so it became known as the Toy Maker. But no I just over the years I just every once in a while just build a different project. So and I I've done some

I've got some Spider-Mans, I've got some Venoms, I've got some but if it's, you know, helmet, I've probably tinkered with it. So and it's just do the th they never get worn. You know, I guess, But it's it's it's just fun. It's an artistic kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, it's just it's just a take it take yeah, take a 3D printing something and there's multiple pieces, I've gotta weld them together, make it look smooth, paint it. So just it's a little hobby.

Steven Smith (21:20.217)
Yeah, that's not the reason for it, right? You know, to be worn, if you will.

Tony Benjamin (21:23.121)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (21:31.239)
That's cool. See Steve now Steve's Star Wars tree behind him here is you know, really cool too, but you didn't have to paint any of those or weld them together, Steve.

Rod Lacey (21:37.057)
yeah.

Steven Smith (21:42.787)
Certainly did not. The only thing where I did a project is this one right here. That is cut out of paper. The snowflake. I had to cut that out. That took like two hours.

Tony Benjamin (21:48.263)
The snowflake.

Rod Lacey (21:53.173)
Like skid, like skid.

Tony Benjamin (21:55.698)
Yeah. Well there you go. Okay. This inter this interlude has been sponsored by Star Wars. So yeah. So so Rod, let's let's talk about 'cause I I think what you were talking about there was really good. Let's talk about the state of HR. What is going on in HR right now?

Rod Lacey (21:57.247)
I appreciate that.

Steven Smith (22:00.793)
It's right.

Rod Lacey (22:00.818)
That's right, yeah.

Rod Lacey (22:11.479)
Yeah.

Th we're seeing a few things. I think the first level positions in HR have been upended, by AI. It's not a great time to be on the market because companies are still trying to figure out

what those those first level positions in HR do any what they need to be doing. Are they even needed? And so I know we're gonna we could talk about my university students, but it's one of the worst entry level job markets in our field that I've seen maybe ever. So I think I think we see that influence and that bleeds into how we process a lot of our other things where I think the candidates out there are having a less personal experience as we automate

Steven Smith (22:33.923)
Mm-hmm.

Rod Lacey (22:57.606)
So many processes. And I think not to get too broad here, but I think HR is once again having to prove, and I don't want to say I'm going to say it because you I'm it's strategic value more than ever before. I think that

Steven Smith (22:58.03)
Rod Lacey (23:16.393)
That we've got to, I mean, we've always been asked to do that, but in this in this surge of tech and automation and downsizing of HR teams, I think executives are expecting more. I think they've always hoped for more, but I think the expectation is let's do it now.

Tony Benjamin (23:35.227)
Yeah, no, I I agree. I th I think the expectations are going up and I think a lot of people who have never a lot of CEOs and companies that have never had that upper strategic level of HR, that they are they're the ones looking at getting rid of it and spreading it out and g you spreading out the responsibilities other places.

Steven Smith (23:56.163)
Which makes sense, right? 'Cause they're trying to cut costs. I mean, that's that's what CEOs do, right? But to what expense, right? They I don't know, they start they start losing some of the flavor of what it means to really help their people and stuff, so

Rod Lacey (23:56.225)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (24:11.211)
I I think I think the challenge for for anyone in HR space is to be str I don't want to say to be very ta no no. You've got to you've got to think like the CEO thinks. You've got to you've got to speak like the CFO speaks because they've wanted that since the beginning of the establishment of HR. And there's a lot of HR people that have not cut it. I hate to say I mean I I'm doing

Tony Benjamin (24:18.363)
Say it. No way, we're we're good. I'm I'm enjoying this.

Tony Benjamin (24:25.981)
Yes.

Steven Smith (24:31.139)
So true. Yep.

Yeah.

Rod Lacey (24:38.801)
I do work to replace failed HR people. Some of the consulting I do is for that. I have re in my career, my corporate career, I replaced way too many people that that just didn't cut it, you know. And so there it's it's the time to fish or cut bait. You know, it's just I I think we're at that crux in HR where the organization says, enough's enough, be strategic or we're gonna figure something else out.

Steven Smith (24:50.146)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (25:04.545)
Yeah. And I think there's more the to being strategic than always having a seat at the table. I think what I've learned in the our last few guests, you don't always have to have a seat at the table for every single thing, right? But there are certain things that you should have a seat at the table. And if you certainly haven't proven your value, not only are you not going to get invited to the table, you're not going to show your value whatsoever. And and when it comes to that point where they need to let somebody go, I mean, you're going to be the first on the list, period. So

Rod Lacey (25:32.149)
Yeah. Now I I've al I've always said that, you know

Tony Benjamin (25:34.503)
No that's

Rod Lacey (25:37.077)
before you aspire to that seat on the table, make sure you know what's on the menu. May just so seriously, but because when when you sit at that table, you're not doing HR anymore. You're you're building the business, you're executing strategy. It is, it is a whole day it's like I said at 1-800 contacts, had a great title, you know, sat on the executive team for years. I felt like my team had all the fun. They were doing what I love to be doing. And they did it very well. you know, but

Steven Smith (25:41.813)
It's a great point.

Steven Smith (25:47.797)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Rod Lacey (26:05.586)
I sat there strategizing the ins and outs of contact lens wearers. I was a lobbyist in multiple states to help legislation get passed to support our our disruptive business. It was like

That's what I did. And so did I I would have rather not had a seat at every table I've been at, to your point. You know, just like I just the menu's not it everything everything preaches. Get a seat at the table. But I would agree, it's not it's not for everyone, and not everything at the table is what you're gonna enjoy doing.

Steven Smith (26:25.059)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (26:25.477)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (26:37.497)
Exactly. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (26:40.103)
That's that's an interesting point. I always tell people like my thought process is if if there's a meeting and it happens and you're not at that table, if when they get out and you find out what the meeting was about, if you don't immediately have something to say that they overlooked, you didn't need to be there. Right? And and so it it just my my thought it just

Rod Lacey (26:57.75)
Good point.

Tony Benjamin (27:03.983)
I'm I'm never a person like if I have if I'm there with the with the C suite and I like to be in all those discussions to know everything that's going on so that I can provide my unique take on it or or you know, the HR function's unique take. but there are just sometimes when I worked at Superior Drilling they'd be in there and they'd be discussing processes for heating and repairing oil well drilling bits. Don't need to be there.

unless they start talking about implement implementate implementing those and me saying, you know, your guys really don't like to do that. They don't like to heat the kiln that much, and I can tell you what they're gonna say. Right? Like th and that's that's that was my piece in in some of those. But to your point, unless I I I always knew if I didn't need to be in there because I didn't have something to add afterwards when I found out what it was about. So let's talk about this.

Steven Smith (27:31.681)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (27:39.363)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (28:00.104)
Why did you fund Sunstone? I know you've talked a little bit about this, right? And decided you put your feet but why did what drew you to owning your own company and being an HR consultant?

Steven Smith (28:05.389)
Mm.

Rod Lacey (28:10.806)
Good question. s the at first there was a little necessity. My consulting was it was maybe gonna be a patch until I found my next full-time gig. Speed g comp completely transparent.

But it did get me back into doing the work I loved and it took off faster and did better than my job search. And so I leaned into it, you know, and I I branded the company early and you know just enjoyed it. And then I I've always been able to do it while teaching at UVU. And so for me, it's just it's like the ultimate in in my employment experience. Love the students, love the just the diversity of businesses. But when I started, it was just me. It was just my calendar. And so for for

Tony Benjamin (28:41.267)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (28:53.802)
couple of years I mean it had the same brand but when I was my calendar was full there was no outreach you know very little handshaking and but

I decided to scale to see what it might look like. And so that's where I'm at today where I'm continuing to promote and explore and bringing on other consultants to help carry I guess the leads that come in that I don't have the bandwidth for. And it's been it's been an interesting shift. I'm still doing the work. So I guess I I got one hat. I'm I'm the HR consultant. I'm a professor, but I'm also the CEO in business development and

Steven Smith (29:19.169)
Okay.

Rod Lacey (29:33.612)
sales guy and accountant and you know the things that come with running a business, that's been a new twist. That's it's different, it's good, but man, it's stressful. So anyway, but yeah, that's kind of w where we're at today. But it's it's real I'll tell you what's really cool about it. And again, Tony, you can appreciate this too. But like in the consulting space, it's lonely.

Steven Smith (29:38.755)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (29:46.835)
Yeah. Okay.

Rod Lacey (29:57.46)
You know, if if you're a solo, which I was for most of my time at Sunstone, I mean, the you there is no network. Your clients you're part of the family, but yet you're not. And so what what building this brand around some amazingly talented people has been, it's just it's created a sense of family, it's created this camaraderie. Everyone in a common space trying to hustle, find new clients, get new, you know, leads, and it's it's been that was one of the unexpected benefits with this thing.

is is the camaraderie and the commiseration. And that's why I did that that networking group that we do on the Friday a month is it's lonely. It's lonely in the consulting space, but whatever you do to create a sense of team just makes it so much better.

Steven Smith (30:42.189)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (30:42.749)
Yeah, I went to the grocery store today just to get out of my office. Totally. Just went to the grocery store.

Rod Lacey (30:45.973)
No, I'd say if if I stood right now this chair will stick to me. It literally just it is a part of me. This this spot this office. It just we are one.

Steven Smith (30:46.745)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (30:53.619)
Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. That that's let's let's kinda talk about the the future of HR consulting. and and I'm just curious, when when did you found Sunstone? What year was it?

Rod Lacey (31:09.535)
Twenty seventeen.

Tony Benjamin (31:11.045)
Okay. Okay. So I originally founded the Grange in twenty sixteen and then I went through all the way through twenty seventeen. So I did it about a little over two years. And then I one of my clients just I fell in love with the company and went to work for them. but talk to me about how the how HR consulting has changed from then to now. Cause I know I can tell you when I got out of it and got back into it six and a half, seven years later, it's different. It's different. So I'm curious your take, how you see that evolving, where you think HR consulting is going.

Steven Smith (31:30.222)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (31:41.258)
Good question. So I my story, my origin story, and that's kinda like yours. 2017 left corporate, launched it, ran it to 2020. One of my I like late 2019, one of my clients hired me full-time. And so for four years I to I did the corporate thing, two different global companies, but then relaunched the same brand. So and and from scratch.

Steven Smith (31:52.749)
Mm-hmm.

Rod Lacey (32:08.541)
What was different before there weren't that many of us out there. I didn't it didn't feel that way. It just you know, if you put a simple I'm an HR consultant out there there were not that many people saying they were. What's different today is

And I think our society has driven it. No it's not cool to be without a job on a resume. Blanks on the resume are are taboo. And so everyone that gets laid off or has a a gap is a consultant. Or they give it a go. And so there's just there's so much delusion of

Steven Smith (32:33.731)
Mm-hmm.

Rod Lacey (32:44.105)
that out there. You know, again, hats off to everyone for giving life a shot and giving, you know, filling any gap with whatever work they can hustle. that's where I started too.

But yeah, there's so many HR consultants out there. I I was again there's there's so many networking forums too. I was looking at one particular networking forum where like three-quarters of the people that had signed up were all HR consultants across the country. You know, and it's like, okay, that's so many of us. And anyway.

Tony Benjamin (33:13.597)
You read that on forums a lot though, in in Facebook and stuff like that. They're like, I'm thinking about you know, they're like, I hate my company that I'm working for, my boss is a jerk. I'm thinking about just doing consulting. And and I really think that they think that they'll just set this down and they'll go out and they'll find a couple of clients and and they'll be happy. And look, I I think me personally, I think most HR consultants that make it, that's what they do. They end up with two or three clients that carry along well enough.

Rod Lacey (33:39.955)
Yeah. Yep.

Steven Smith (33:41.635)
Yep, they're happy.

Tony Benjamin (33:42.118)
And they they go along and most of them have spouses that work or whatever. So they kinda, you know, supplement them and all that and then until they and then they get two or three and they're good. And then you just stick with those two or three forever. that's not my vision of what I wanna do, right? And but lots of people lots of people do that. And and if you don't

Rod Lacey (33:53.237)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (34:02.502)
they end up going back into something else, right? They're like, I got a market, I have to do this or that and then they just I'll be an admin in something else. They just give up HR. I it i are you seeing that too, I guess?

Rod Lacey (34:04.939)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (34:12.535)
Yeah, you know, but but Tony, it's not it's not just seeing that, it's what's being promoted. So so you know, the the influencer space right now is so heavily saturated with with people who are trying to start their own things, right? And the fractional HR space, there are do you know how many influencers are out there right now who are trying to sell packages of

Rod Lacey (34:28.969)
Very true.

Steven Smith (34:35.221)
Of becoming a fractional consultant. And so they're trying to get people to become the fractional consultant. And that's exactly what they teach them. All you need is two to three clients or four at max. And then you're you're where you need to be and you're set, right? And that's what they promote constantly and consistently. I I've I've actually gone to several of those webinars over the last six months, just trying to learn how to network and talk to people and you know, bust my tail out there, trying to find clients, et cetera.

And and all the fractional people are saying the exact same thing. And and so and and and again, they're trying to sell these little packages in a night, nice tight bow. So if you buy this package from me, I can, you know, we'll we'll help you start your fractional consulting business type thing. And and that's how they're trying to sell it. And and so it it is saturated right now because

Rod Lacey (35:19.53)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (35:26.249)
You one person is like, I've got the package. Okay, let's tell HR. And then one HR person says, I can sell these packages and abandon my consulting stuff because I can just sell these packages to other people that want to do the thing that I failed at. And so that's what they're doing. And it's amazing to me to watch that dynamic and how they're just trying to sell this idea of consulting, but you know, it's not

Rod Lacey (35:39.412)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (35:49.729)
Some of them have not been that successful at selling or they sell time with the packages, but a lot of they don't have a lot of students that can say, yeah, I got a lot out of that. You know, they have one or two here and there, but it's not very consistent right now. So it's fascinating to kind of watch that dynamic. So anyway, just just my take on it, because I've I have attended probably a dozen webinars or more on these fractional consultant packages just to learn it.

Rod Lacey (36:02.591)
Yeah.

It's

Rod Lacey (36:12.764)
Sure.

Steven Smith (36:15.743)
Yeah, because I like to learn stuff because if I can do it better, I'll go out and do it better.

Rod Lacey (36:20.276)
And I I do the same thing, Stephen. I I I I I attend those to figure out

kind of what's emerging, what's coming, because everyone else is learning from those same freebies and signing up for whatever. But I I'll tell you one of the things if someone's thinking about becoming a fractional professional, they need to ask themselves, how much do you like sales? How much because that is fifty percent of what I do is sales. And if the sales team drove you nuts through your career, that's now you. You know it just

Steven Smith (36:26.563)
Yep.

Yeah.

Steven Smith (36:42.457)
Yep. Yep.

Steven Smith (36:48.887)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (36:54.874)
that high maintenance group that was hyper and in everyone's face and hard to make I mean that's you are packing the business cards, shaking hands, networking, you always talking to people. So what do you do? What do you do? For selfish reasons because I want to get your account. And so you you start to become a persona that is not the HR persona, but it takes that to be successful.

Steven Smith (37:04.376)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (37:17.815)
Yeah. Because they it otherwise they're not gonna think about you. They're not even gonna know who you are. And you have to be known. You know, I I always say this when I was in sales, one of the things is is I would always try to do things, even if it was for free at the time, because I wanted to be the first person you thought about when you were ready to take a bite, if you will. And and so that that that's hard. That that that is not something that just comes out of the blue.

Rod Lacey (37:22.43)
You're right.

Rod Lacey (37:35.795)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (37:45.139)
And it falls in your lap. If you're relying solely on customer referrals, that's a you're not gonna get very far because most of your customers are not gonna be like, you know what? I'm glad you asked. Susie over here needs help. That you can ask the ask all you want, but they're not they're not gonna just hand you this list of people because for them, you know, they're

Rod Lacey (37:53.011)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (38:06.871)
their reputations on the line, all these things, even if they've had a great experience with you. I I even found trying to get r you know, Google reviews and things like that, it it's sometimes pulling teeth just to get reviews because because they they again, they don't want to put their name out there all the time, right?

Rod Lacey (38:11.838)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (38:19.377)
It is.

Steven Smith (38:25.581)
Whether they've had a good experience with you or not, I get the comments on LinkedIn all the time. my gosh, this was amazing. This, this, and that. And I was like, well, if it was that amazing, can you go leave a review for me? Because that'll help me way more than a private LinkedIn message. So for those of you out there, if you have some really good vendors or people that you're working with, go leave them a review on Google. That's one of the best ways to really help out. Just have FYI. So

Rod Lacey (38:35.828)
yeah.

Rod Lacey (38:41.199)
Ha

Rod Lacey (38:45.924)
I would agree. Spo spontaneous. Yeah. We find ourselves begging for these. Yeah, but a spontane yeah, yeah.

Steven Smith (38:52.547)
Correct. And we shouldn't have to, especially when we're providing this phenomenal service. Cause because I know the types of services that all three of us have done over the years. I've I've I've seen the impact on some of the clients that we work with. And let me tell you, it's some solid stuff. And and so so yeah, you know, please be spontaneous and say because that's the best way you can say thank you. So yeah. Anyway.

Rod Lacey (39:14.982)
It is. It is. I love that.

Tony Benjamin (39:18.267)
Or you could just double what you pay us every month out of the goodness of your heart. Come on. So no, but Rod, I I you've touched on this and you've said the word fractional several several times. And when I hear about I hear the word fractional HR a lot more than I hear HR consultant, right? Fractional HR. and right, right. It is, it is.

Rod Lacey (39:20.712)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's renew. Yeah.

Steven Smith (39:20.985)
Wow. And here they are trying to cut costs.

Steven Smith (39:41.561)
That's the buzzword right now. Yeah.

Rod Lacey (39:43.058)
It is a buzzword.

Tony Benjamin (39:46.34)
So you I I guess I'm gonna say something about how I view things and I would like your reaction to that, right? I just kind of tell me what you think. and and yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That never happens. I'm shocked, Steve. no, so here's here's the my thought about this. There is a difference between between providing fractional HR and strategic HR.

Rod Lacey (39:53.022)
It's great.

Steven Smith (39:54.679)
And you're okay to tell him he's wrong. Yeah, yeah. Just giving your permission now.

Rod Lacey (39:57.317)
I love that. Okay. Here we go. Here we go.

Tony Benjamin (40:14.755)
And or or HR consulting, if that's how you want to put that. Meaning fractional HR is I need someone in my office to do all the admin stuff that HR would do. And and then there's a difference between that and an HR person that you bring in to help guide the the the function or whatever in your company. Right? I am am I am I right about that? So so one ad is

Rod Lacey (40:36.476)
I no, I would agree.

Tony Benjamin (40:39.955)
I'm gonna do your benefits, I'm gonna, you know, hire, fire people, whatever, write disciplinary action, blah, blah, blah. Well, disciplinary action may not be in there, but and then the the other end of that is I'm here to talk to you about how to help you organize your company and the basic policies, everything you wanna set up, your the your culture that you're developing in your company and how to get from here to your vision, right? I am I am I right there?

Rod Lacey (40:58.556)
Yeah. I think I think you're right. I think there's let me tell you what I found, my own experience.

And I I I I do an onboarding with all my consultants that are brand new to the consulting. One of the things I teach is that we're gonna go back ten years of your career. you you maybe you've had a seat at the table. In a part time capacity, you will not be able to understand the business well enough to advise like you're used to advising. So we've gotta humble ourselves, roll up our sleeves and be comfortable executing in in in the business operations. All right. And I love it, you know, I I love it. And I'm I'm on

two executive teams with my clients right now. I go to quarterly business reviews and I provide very little value. I know the business, I know the products, I know the CEOs, I report to the CEOs and but I

I'm not there enough and entrenched enough in that one culture to create the value that I'm used to providing. So, yes, I think there is a difference between, if you're thirsty, a strategic HR contributor, you know, at that high end of the organization, those those seats that I used to have and the fractional piece. I think it's a different role. However, the caveat I would say is I think the right fractional partner can help you build what you need to be ready for the future.

future, meaning that help you get ready to scale. They've seen bigger things, they've seen better operations. And so that insights, although maybe not C level or VP level strategic, they're preparing you to ramp probably before you were ready to ramp before.

Tony Benjamin (42:35.089)
Yeah, okay. No, thank you. That that's that's I find that seventy to eighty percent of of people who are calling me off my website or whatever are just out there searching, they're looking for fractional work, right? Come in, take the load off my admin assistant.

Rod Lacey (42:46.91)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (42:48.141)
You know, I feel like fractional is almost like a PEO, right? You might be better off go getting a PEO if that's really what you're looking for, right?

Tony Benjamin (42:55.813)
Steve, those three letters are naughty words. You need to apologize to our audience for having said that.

Rod Lacey (42:58.376)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (42:58.487)
I they're naughty words, but I'm just saying, like, be because and and I think this is where it behooves us as consultants to really consult with them. Sometimes we hear that and and then we just say, Well, we're not the right fit, and we just let them go on. Well, wait a minute. Maybe what I really need to do is sit down and listen to you for a minute because maybe you think that.

Rod Lacey (43:08.552)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (43:19.885)
the fractional HR is what you need when in reality what you need is somebody who can guide the team that you may already have or the group that's already that you've already been working with and enhance what it is they're doing. And that's much more valuable to you as a business owner than just, hey, I need to take these things off our plate.

D does that make sense? And so so we have to be careful when we get those conversations or phone calls that we just don't simply let them go. I I've seen that way too much in the sales space where pe where they just that's not a fit right away and we just automatically shove them off and set them down and say, Okay, well that you know, that's gonna be lower on on my list of people that I should work with.

Rod Lacey (43:37.502)
Mm-hmm.

Rod Lacey (43:50.708)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (43:57.293)
Because you again, you never know when that person who who thinks they need that fractional stuff, they might get some of that. And then they need to come back to you later. And if you didn't develop the right type of relationship with them to begin with, they're not gonna think of you and come back to you for that support later on. So so so I think, you know, from again, I've been in sales a long time. You have to develop relationships at every phase of the process, no matter what. So anyway.

Rod Lacey (44:10.515)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (44:22.929)
And I'll just add that some of my strongest partners are PEOs.

I know what they do. I know the value they bring, and they know what I do. And just like literally, just today, a a PEO forwarded the a cold call, forwarded that cold call to me because I what I offer, we offer is a better fit. They didn't need a PEO, they needed a plug-and-play fractional partner, like we have to. So my PEO partner said that to me, and we'll see how it goes. You know, but yeah, it's it's good. We need to recognize what's best for that client, for that.

Steven Smith (44:28.727)
Yeah. I believe it. I believe it.

Tony Benjamin (44:29.148)
Really?

Steven Smith (44:53.751)
Yeah, yeah.

Rod Lacey (44:58.589)
employer and there there's been there's been outreach to me where I've said you know what I'm gonna connect you with three PEOs of that trust let's get you bids from them because I think that's the solution you need and so we we've got to do what's in the but I think that to your point Stephen that that creates the relationship that's longer term longer lasting and that's this is the long game and this is what I'm gonna be doing until I decide I don't think I can ever retire but just because I like it but it's what I'm gonna be doing. So relationships are still key.

Steven Smith (45:28.077)
Yeah, absolutely.

Tony Benjamin (45:30.236)
Interesting. Wow. I would think normally the words PEO

Steven Smith (45:33.049)
See, this is great because we're finally gonna get Tony to change his mind a little bit about the the f three three letter word that he can't stand.

Rod Lacey (45:38.437)
Tony Benjamin (45:43.22)
I don't know, I think what what does PEOs actually stand for? It stands for probably evil organization, right? Isn't that what that stands for? Yeah. No, I'm just look, I Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it just it's it's one of those things that I think that I've I've never me personally I've never seen a company where I think you're gonna be happier with a PEO than you would with an HR department.

Rod Lacey (45:49.189)
It's something something similar. Yeah, I guess. you got the you got the last letter right. So yeah ballpark, yeah.

Steven Smith (45:51.833)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (46:12.781)
and and the the reason I say that is 'cause every time I've seen them in there, the the reason I get called in or the reason they're moving out from a PEO and all that sort of stuff is because they are

They're saying like we get no personal service. I I I my culture is falling apart and I don't know why. and and you know, the we we never get anything. Everyone's always asking my payroll or the the accounting person about payroll because it's never quite right. And you know, all those sorts of things. And then they're like, I'm like, how many employees do you have? And they're like sixty. And I go, Well, that's why, right? Because you're not big enough. Like, in theory, sixty employees is the perfect range for a PEO, but most of them

Rod Lacey (46:47.55)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (46:55.367)
They give their their clients with three hundred employees more whatever than you. That and and that's how that goes. And yeah, yeah. And and look, I've had owners of PEOs tell me straight to my f face, I love PEO business 'cause it's a cash cow and I just live off that milk off that cash cow. And they they use it to invest in other things. Like I met a guy he wanted to he was gonna develop software. He was gonna have a software company and he was using the PEO money to fund his software company. So

Rod Lacey (47:00.221)
Of course.

Steven Smith (47:01.507)
Yeah, 'cause you're not big enough.

Tony Benjamin (47:26.163)
I mean anyways, th th I I agree with both of you about that. I'm just I haven't seen it yet. There we go. Is that is that was that too much? All of our listeners are like, Yes, Tony.

Rod Lacey (47:34.418)
No, no.

Steven Smith (47:35.319)
I r I wanted you to push back more, Tony. I wanted to get the the Tony flair, but

Tony Benjamin (47:39.315)
Yeah, I don't know. Go ahead, Rod, you were gonna say something, I think.

Rod Lacey (47:40.179)
Ha.

Rod Lacey (47:45.384)
No, no, I'm gonna say I think I I make it very clear to my clients and to the PEOs I partner with, I don't wanna be a PO. I literally have no interest in in venturing into that scope. I wanna be excellent at what I do. And if that works for the client, count as sin. If it doesn't, I'm gonna refer you to somebody. But you're right, Tony. There is a point where it might make sense, it might not.

Tony Benjamin (48:08.199)
Right. Well, and here's the other thing is I 'cause that law the law firm that I work with, they have a PEO there, right? And they don't employ p and it's a complicated situation there. But they they're outside HR, just say it that way, and and their videos are terrible. Like their video training for harassment training is just terrible. I'm like, Well, the it's close to technically right. Almost. It's so bad.

Steven Smith (48:32.281)
So so I think for the future Tony's gonna build his own PEO and change the entire space. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's what I'm waiting for.

Rod Lacey (48:38.759)
He should. Do it right, Tony.

Tony Benjamin (48:41.747)
Do it right or don't. Thank you. I appreciate that, everyone. send me your send me your company name so that they can fire you and and hire me as a PEO. Yeah, that's that's right. let's do our next read here and then I can embarrass myself more afterwards. running a business is hard. HR shouldn't be. Megastar HR is here to save you from bad HR.

Rod Lacey (48:47.539)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (48:51.879)
Ha ha ha.

Steven Smith (49:00.441)
We

Tony Benjamin (49:07.879)
With expert support and everything from hiring to handbooks, compliance to culture. Need payroll help or recort recruiting power? We do that too. Fractionally inflexibly, no overhead, just results. Visit megastar HR.com and let's grow your business together. Thank you, Becca, for sponsoring us. You're awesome. We you're you're gr yeah, everybody does. And Steve stop trying to make me laugh. Dude, I had to like shield so I couldn't see the screen while I was doing this.

Rod Lacey (49:27.473)
Love you love Becca.

Rod Lacey (49:35.197)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (49:35.993)
Every time. I you know, I I don't try to make you laugh. I think it's a personal issue. So there you go.

Tony Benjamin (49:38.832)
poor Becca. Yeah, that's what it is. That's what it is, for sure. For sure, for sure.

Rod Lacey (49:44.865)
it was for me it was jealousy over the dance moves. It just kinda that sh that that shoulder and neck dance was so fluid, so smooth.

Tony Benjamin (49:50.42)
Yeah. Matter of fact, you're gonna see him do air guitar here in just a minute. So yeah, that that that will that will be something. So let's talk about Rod, tell us what you do at UVU and how that's going. And I'm just really curious to give us a few insights you've gotten from educating younger people, especially to be an HR, but new practitioners. What what is an insight there? Tell us what you do and then that.

Steven Smith (49:51.203)
You have no idea. You have no idea how much I practice in front of the mirror.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do that for sure.

Rod Lacey (49:58.086)
yeah.

Rod Lacey (50:14.493)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (50:18.823)
So the role I've got there, it's called a professional in residence. So I'm not I I teach. I don't have to research, I don't have to publish. They brought me on as an industry expert to teach primarily the juniors and seniors right before they go into the workplace about the realities of the business world. So I mean it's it there there are textbooks, there are material that you would so they're getting education, but it's grounded in a practitioner. And what's what's unique about

Tony Benjamin (50:37.533)
Very cool.

Rod Lacey (50:48.757)
About the approach that Utah Valley University takes in their business school, 50% of all faculty are professionals and residents. They are practitioners that are accomplished in the field, teaching the students about life and business life, and not just, again, I didn't earn a PhD. I don't, I I don't I don't think I like the research and the publication. I have all the respect in the world for everything that represents, so I'm not trying to disparage that, but that's all I had in my education was PhDs.

And I don't know that I was that well prepared for the realities of business because I got a lot of theory. I got a you know a lot of theory and principle taught to me. we make it a point in our program, we have a an employer's advisory board where we meet them every six months. What's going on in the business world? What do we need to be teaching our students? What skills are most critical for their success? And we make sure that we're weaving those things into our programs. I mean this last semester, because the job market had turned

Steven Smith (51:27.973)
Mm-hmm.

Rod Lacey (51:48.67)
So poor for these new shouldaby graduates. I built a five-part series on building your LinkedIn portfolio for my students, made it a requirement for the class because they needed to be as marketable as possible. So anyway, so I it's I I what I've learned is these students, they're great students. I mean, they're just there's a there's a caliber and a quality that they're better than I was at that age. they're hardworking, they're committed, it's a good

Steven Smith (52:15.15)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (52:18.453)
good group. They they push themselves. Most that I teach are working and schooling. Many have small families and you know they're just they're just busting it at life and doing a really good job. And I don't know, they're just genuinely good, well-intentioned people. You know, just those they put everything they have into it. I'll I teach a class tonight and I'm going to have you know 25 students on camera for an hour and a half and we're going to have some great discussions about strategic HR.

And so it's but no, it's it's been really cool. And it it in a selfish way it validates the work that I've done. You know, being able to convert the the case study that I have them read or the article and say, you know, here's how you're going to experience it. They love that stuff. And so it it's it's very validating to be able to provide that kind of value.

Steven Smith (53:07.811)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (53:12.145)
That's really cool. I got my MBA at the University of Phoenix and one of the things I liked about it most was that all of our instructors were real life practitioners in the subject that they were teaching. It was really cool. So I took operations from the head of operations for Boeing. Like, talk about right, talk about cool and he did practical application the entire class.

There was some really cool things that we learned. And it's because just what you said, he's there and and and he's he's doing and and he's seeing what's new, you know. The anyways, I thought it was really cool. the for stats we had the guy who was over for Target. It was his job to do a statistical analysis of the market where they're going to put us a target store before they put the store in, and it was his job

Within the fur he had to be right on his projections for two for the first two years of the store. If not, he had screwed up. And they're like, if it doesn't make the money y you said it will or whatever, then you're in trouble, right? And i that's cool. Like that's stats, right? Practical. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Smith (54:17.015)
Wow.

Yep.

Steven Smith (54:24.505)
You gotta make sure those projections are spot on.

Rod Lacey (54:24.55)
That's reality.

Yeah. And that takes it from theory to application, which is is just so critical. I think that's like I feel like I emerged from college with theory.

Tony Benjamin (54:34.897)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (54:39.722)
and I had to just bust my butt through application. But I mean we we have our students do like real consulting projects during the semester. They to my clients and and build stuff for my clients. we have the advisory board. I mean just they what when my students graduate, they take the SHERM CP exam. I have them prepared for that by the end of their last semester. So we're really doing everything we can to to prepare them for the real jobs, be marketable with with true HR insights. So yeah, it's it's been fun.

Tony Benjamin (55:10.201)
And you know, one of my favorite things about the way I do anti-harassment training is I love so when I you guys will remember this. Steve, we've already talked about this, but you guys remember this when it used to be the the way that they did harassment training was some woman came in and did a presentation for you and should sit on the lap of the CFO or something and rub her hands through his hair, ask everyone if that's harassment, right? That sort of shock you in your face sort of thing. and that's

Steven Smith (55:34.585)
Wow, I've never been to one of those trainings.

Rod Lacey (55:35.356)
Ha ha.

No.

Tony Benjamin (55:37.914)
Well, I have. I have several times. So but anyways, the the one of the fun things I do now, because I take a more legalistic approach when I do anti harassment training, but I like the scenarios I have with that I give them afterwards and say, Is this harassment or is it not? And the the reason I do is because they're muddy, murky things.

Rod Lacey (55:57.073)
Mm.

Tony Benjamin (56:02.896)
And I love it because even when I'm in front of students, I go, you know, seniors in college or experienced people, HR people or whatever, I say, is this harassment? And everyone goes, Well, it wasn't until that point. Or it well, it is, but what about his feelings or her feelings? Or what's going you know? And that's real HR, right? That that's where it's at. I got a great one where right, I use Grover as Sesame Street. He's my main character. And you know, he's he's got there's a pregnant lady

Rod Lacey (56:21.625)
It is

Steven Smith (56:23.575)
Yeah, real application.

Rod Lacey (56:31.526)
He is but he's shady. Everyone knows Grover's shady. So I say.

Tony Benjamin (56:33.427)
That's right. So, but you know, he's got a pregnant woman that that has a cube just behind his, right? And she's always talking about very specific problems with her pregnancy, and he does not like it. And so is that harassment if he asks her to stop. And you know, I just like those are the those are the the fun things to really get in. I that's awesome. That's really good. Real, real practical.

Steven Smith (56:34.649)
Ha ha near far.

Steven Smith (56:51.353)
Poor Grover.

Steven Smith (57:00.355)
But see, Grover's paranoid. I've I've read The Monster at the end of this book, and that entire time he just it the struggle was real for him. Absolutely.

Tony Benjamin (57:04.307)
He's paranoid.

Rod Lacey (57:04.39)
Yeah. Yeah. He's is he's hypersensitive all the way. Yeah. See what a flashback. See that that book. Yeah, thank you. That was that was good.

Steven Smith (57:13.485)
Well, you know. Yeah, well and and yeah and Rod, I love the fact you talk about Yeah, well there we go. Wow. Yeah, you should make that part of your HR. Well, I you know, I love the application idea. I'm working with with a couple of clients right now on applying some AI bots.

Tony Benjamin (57:16.327)
But yeah. That's better than Elmo telling everyone to tickle him, just saying. Yeah, yeah.

Rod Lacey (57:21.142)
that's fair, yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Grover he Grover is on the Paranoid's better than than the the Touch Me. Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (57:28.189)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Steven Smith (57:37.739)
Into their processes. And you know, I had a meeting the other day with a with an IT team and we were talking about it. And first of all, it amazed me that part of the IT team didn't even understand everything I was asking. and so I've I'm already to a point where I I understand some elements of AI that even some IT directors don't don't fully understand because they haven't really done the work, right? The actual actionable things to put things into place. And so

Rod Lacey (57:49.979)
Rod Lacey (58:01.158)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (58:05.431)
That part is what excites me the most is to go into some of these organizations and actually work with the IT team and HR and bring them together and help them implement some of these bots that are going to simplify so many things for them that's going to make it easier for their HR team to do what they need to do as well as the managers, because it absolutely trickles down to the managers and impacts them as well. But then help the IT team from a cy cybersecurity perspective have everything in place.

Rod Lacey (58:28.178)
It does.

Steven Smith (58:33.911)
So that they can be confident that implementing what they're implementing is absolutely the right decision. And so I I love, I think those real world applications, especially with AI right now, are some of my favorite things to do. And so I that's what I've enjoyed the most about kind of stepping into this consulting role right now because it's just exciting to sit there and build it out and have the entire framework built and have all of the it's just fun to me. Cause because it takes me back to my applicant pro days.

Rod Lacey (58:52.752)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (59:03.469)
when we were literally building Applicant Pro from scratch and developing a software that we could take to market and actually see people use it. And so now I'm I'm taking some of these AI bots to market and it's the funnest thing in the world. So so those those to me are are some of the things I love. I love the real world application and I can't wait to get some of the details from those a after implementation to be able to say, okay, guess what we just did. So so it's it it's gonna be fun over the next several months to watch some of those things.

Rod Lacey (59:06.726)
You of course.

Rod Lacey (59:28.56)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (59:31.403)
actually go into action. And we're you're gonna get a little flavor of that at the conference because we're gonna we're gonna show you a little bit about, you know, building some of those bots within the framework right there at the conference this year at at at work elevated. And we only have 50 seats available for that particular session. So you gotta sign up early for those of you are listening. So FYI.

Rod Lacey (59:48.316)
Yeah.

And th let me share this on the whole AI thing, because i people don't necessarily think about this, but at the university level, these students, think about how good you could have been as a student with chat GPT or Claude sitting in your back pocket, right? the the the caliber of the input I'm getting from students is like so good. I encourage the use of AI because that's the reality of business, right? And i I try to do I try to do I mean I I I'm very unique, like my s my students don't type

Steven Smith (59:56.974)
Mm-hmm.

Steven Smith (01:00:04.247)
Right.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:04.574)
Yeah, yeah.

Steven Smith (01:00:15.321)
Correct.

Rod Lacey (01:00:21.213)
Double spaced papers because never in business are you gonna type anything double spaced ever again. But so I I really try to craft their experience. Yeah, and also I I mean if they miss a deadline on an assignment, there's a like a 25% grade drop. Because if you miss a deadline at work, you might lose your job, right? So we try try to infuse, yeah. So we try to infuse a little bit of the reality there, but I want them to use AI, but they have to tell me their prompts, you know, because let's let's let's prep them, let's get them ready for the realities of what they're.

Steven Smith (01:00:27.203)
But good for you.

Steven Smith (01:00:37.689)
Same, yeah, that's real application. Mm-hmm.

Steven Smith (01:00:53.069)
No, and that's a great point, Rod. So when I was talking to this IT team and building the bot, we're outlining everything, all the prompts that we've done and the instructions and part of the project. Because guess what? HR is going to have to document all that to prove that there's no bias and things like that as a part of that. And that's what I've really been working with these IT people from a cyber cybersecurity perspective is look, cybersecurity is on you guys. You guys are going to make sure there's no infiltrations and things like that. But governance

Rod Lacey (01:01:07.057)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (01:01:12.219)
Great point.

Steven Smith (01:01:22.817)
It's still in the role of HR. And so HR has to understand exactly everything that went into that model so that you can defend it. And that's what's that's so important as we develop these bots and things like that. So so that's also exciting to me because I understand that side of HR so well that it's really easy to take that.

Rod Lacey (01:01:42.245)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (01:01:44.021)
in a real world application stance and say, okay, here's why we're building it this way. Here's the the guardrails that we're putting in place. Here's why those are in place. And here's the exact prompts, words, everything. That is absolutely real world application because they're gonna have to document it for the future. They have to document. We always say document, document, document in HR. Well guess what? It is still true with AI. And and so that that's cool. That's cool that you're doing that with your students for sure.

Rod Lacey (01:02:04.09)
Yeah. It is.

Rod Lacey (01:02:10.225)
Thanks.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:12.071)
Yeah, look how look how satisfied Rod is now with your praise, Steve. You could tell he was just waiting for your praise. Yeah. let's let's do this. Let's let's quickly do the HR in life segment and we'll come out with this. We'll touch this really quick. So here we go. Get ready, Steve.

Steven Smith (01:02:15.174)
Ha ha ha.

Rod Lacey (01:02:16.048)
yeah, that's right. there it came. Yeah, no, that's good.

Steven Smith (01:02:19.434)
Is that what it was? Nice, nice.

Steven Smith (01:02:26.189)
Yep, 'cause we got a jet here soon, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:48.623)
All right, all right. There we go. Okay, Steve hit it with this tonight. Yeah.

Steven Smith (01:02:51.543)
Rod, that was me on air guitar, just so you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Rod Lacey (01:02:53.723)
That was you on air guitar. I love it. Yeah. I like it. I mean, it moves me. It moved me.

Steven Smith (01:02:58.265)
Wow. Sideways, back, all the things. Okay, so I've got the I've got the segment for today. And and I thought this was a great topic because not only was is this real for somebody, but th these are things that we face in in the HR world all the time. So here here's what it was. This was a post on Reddit because I love going there and finding stuff like this, like ask HR type stuff.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:58.547)
Sideways and backwards away from his monitor. That's I That's right. Okay, hit us, Steve.

Rod Lacey (01:03:02.737)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (01:03:23.009)
I have a physical disability, affects my shoulders and hips, et cetera. They use a power chair. So in the in this description, they're using a power chair. They've already had a phone interview and they had a video interview with a particular company that they're really interested in. And now they've been asked to come in for an in-person interview. So they're excited about it. But here's what they're debating. They're debating, do I let them know ahead of time in advance of my arrival that I have this disability so that there's not this shock factor when I show up?

You know, I I don't feel my disability is relevant to the job. You know, so it sounds like from an accessibility perspective, there's not much that they need from a reasonable accommodation type thing, but they are concerned about the poor reaction that may come because they're hiding this reality that this in their life. And and so so again, here's a situation where this person feels like I've been hiding it this whole time, and and so there's this sense of discomfort.

I don't necessarily need an accommodation, which is why they didn't disclose it yet. But now they're gonna go in for this first face-to-face meeting because they've gotten to that stage in the hiring process and they are concerned. So, shoot, what do you guys think?

Tony Benjamin (01:04:34.835)
You're up rod. You're you're you're up you're batting up first, yeah. Yeah. Cause what I'm gonna what I'm gonna say is of course so brilliant it will f influence everyone. So we let you go first.

Steven Smith (01:04:34.935)
Wow, complete silence. You always have to go first. The guest always goes first.

Rod Lacey (01:04:36.278)
I I have to go first?

wow, I was gonna

Steven Smith (01:04:42.969)
Ha ha ha.

Rod Lacey (01:04:45.008)
I was hoping to say yeah what what he said. no I I think I I could see both sides. I think if I were to advise the candidate, given there's not a we're not at the job offer phase, I think I would alert the employer in advance. Just say, I'm coming, this is my situation.

Tony Benjamin (01:04:50.343)
Well I might, I might.

Rod Lacey (01:05:08.41)
excited for the next steps but just be aware I'm gonna be arriving in a in a in in a chair and just didn't want anyone to be caught off work. Just

Steven Smith (01:05:16.985)
Well, and I th and I think the purpose behind that if I'm arriving in a chair is do you have facilities in place that can accommodate for me to come in this way, right? I mean that's part of that. So yeah.

Rod Lacey (01:05:25.262)
Yeah. I think part of it's that part of it's that, yeah.

Steven Smith (01:05:31.331)
Do you think he's hiding his a disability though by not saying anything at all?

Tony Benjamin (01:05:31.665)
Interesting.

Steven Smith (01:05:37.881)
These are tough questions, right?

Rod Lacey (01:05:38.916)
So

So yeah, I I don't wanna change the scenario, but you know, I ha I had someone that I knew was she was about to get a job offer. She called me, she says, I just learned I'm pregnant. You know, and should I disclose that before I get the job offer? And I said

Steven Smith (01:05:52.857)
Mm.

Rod Lacey (01:05:57.221)
You know, get the they can't discriminate against you, but you know, get the job offer, accept it, then share it. Because you'd hate to see discrimination enter in anywhere. I mean anywhere, period. But so that's that's the risk in disclosing anything, but they're gonna see it. At the end, you're gonna see it. So I would say take away the surprise and own it. I'm coming, this is my situation. I'll see you Tuesday, you know, and

Steven Smith (01:06:05.783)
At any stage, yeah, exactly.

Rod Lacey (01:06:20.174)
I think that'll be that should go better than the surprise of, well we've gotta get you to the second floor. We should have had you

Tony Benjamin (01:06:28.871)
We lost him just a little bit. That's okay.

Steven Smith (01:06:34.08)
no.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:34.639)
yeah, well, you know, not everyone, you know. so here, let me let me

Rod Lacey (01:06:36.41)
Can you guys hear me?

Steven Smith (01:06:40.217)
I mean he is he's saying something brilliant right now.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:43.621)
I know, I know. Dang it. That what he said. There he is, he's back.

Rod Lacey (01:06:45.646)
Sorry guys.

Steven Smith (01:06:46.393)
there he is. We just we just assumed you were saying something so brilliant that it couldn't be on air.

Rod Lacey (01:06:48.802)
No.

It was. It was. Yeah, it was it was actually Yeah, g i it was a little vulgar. That's what that's why these guys edited me up.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:53.809)
You missed it, but I just said what he said, that dang it.

Yeah, the internet's bleep bleeping ya out.

Steven Smith (01:06:58.99)
Ha ha.

Rod Lacey (01:07:02.507)
my gosh, yeah. I think with the weather blowing in, I think it just zapped me for a second. So

Tony Benjamin (01:07:05.583)
Yeah, yeah. No, so I I hear Rod, I everything that I just heard from you is was a pretty interesting take and I I I think it being such a visible disability plays into that. But my c my common advice to people is I don't disclose disabilities at all until I absolutely have to.

So if I get hired and then there's something that comes up in the job that I wasn't aware of before, that's when I say something. I I don't disclose until I absolutely have to. and and I'll say this because in the legal practice I do and look, we all know, just in case you in case everyone out there does not know, the number one complaint to the EEOC is discrimination based upon some sort of form of disability.

Rod Lacey (01:07:28.804)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:07:53.148)
Right, around some sort of leave or illness or temporary disability or it's the number one complaint they get. And so it happens. And I always tell people don't disclose until you absolutely have to. Now, the chair thing is a little bit different because there's an accommodation. Maybe just you if you go into a business and there is no elevator, right? Maybe that plays into it. Or maybe the person doesn't have any problem with that elevator or whatever, because they don't arrive in a chair. It's just when they sit down or when they get up to leave, they need someone to help them up.

I don't know, right? It it the visibility of it, you can't hide it. You might as well, I guess, say something up front. you know, I had a I had a convers oddly enough, right before we got on this, I had someone ask me this very question. Should I disclose that I've had a disability or whatever? And it was an illness that he has had in the past or whatever. But on their application, they're asking him to disclose that sort of thing.

right on their application. And so my answer to that is no. I would mark no until I have an offer in my hand. And if you believe it's going to influence your ability to do your job there, you should then tell them. But not before that. And if it doesn't influence that, well then tell them when it starts to or when it's going to get in the way. And then you're probably going to have to do some documentation. But be prepared for that. But the real no, don't don't tell your employers or whatever until you have to.

Steven Smith (01:08:50.008)
Wow.

Rod Lacey (01:09:14.328)
That's good advice.

Steven Smith (01:09:15.469)
Yeah, I don't I I I'm with Tony on this a little bit. I I don't think you should have to feel obligated to make any type of special announcement or hey, this is happening. And and you're certainly not, you know, for the person who wrote this, you're not hiding your disability. There there's a there's a distinct difference between withholding your private medical information and providing

False information. In this case, they haven't misrepresented anything at all. Cause I think that's what the concern is. That the way they wrote this, it sounds like they were a little bit concerned that they're misrepresenting. but that's not the case. Now, again, there's only one practical reason for them to let anybody know beforehand, and that is I need an actual accommodation, like accessible parking, particular extra, you know, entrance of some sort or an accessible restroom, things like that. Then it might be.

you know, reasonable to make some type of request like that ahead of time. But going to the interview and and just being there, yeah, that's great. And and here's the reality, right? Some employers they're gonna have a reaction when they see you, but we can't assume that that reaction is because they have discriminatory intentions. Does that make sense? Like like when when we see somebody that has the these types of issues, the first thing some people want to say is, they're being discriminatory, but but really that's not what this is about, right?

Rod Lacey (01:10:18.861)
That's true. That's a great point.

Tony Benjamin (01:10:19.219)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (01:10:30.253)
They might be shocked. It's like, whoa, that's not who I saw on at least the part that I saw on the video interviews, which is fine. Sorry I had a little bit of a shock factor, but that has nothing to do with why we're here and what we're, you know, doing. And so just, you know, from an employer perspective, just remember, you know, we don't have to b necessarily manage their discomfort, but the candidate shouldn't have to manage their discomfort either.

on on both sides, right? This should be a fair interview, all of that. So th those are my take on that. But but I I agree with Tony. I don't think that they necessarily have to disclose it up front unless they foresee an actual accommodation necessary. So there we go.

Rod Lacey (01:10:57.732)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (01:11:08.271)
That's great.

Steven Smith (01:11:09.079)
This is a great question on Reddit. I I really hope this this person gets some of the answers they want. You know, sometimes you get random people on there that answer in such weird ways. Like they want to tell them, you should you get the EEOC involved. And it's like, whoa, guys, calm down. Like before you jump to all these conclusions. I know. Anyway, so so so kind of a fun fun just a fun conversation on Reddit right now and and

Tony Benjamin (01:11:09.742)
Yeah.

Rod Lacey (01:11:23.097)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:11:25.957)
EEOC they haven't hired me yet, but I'm I'm upset. I'm upset 'cause they noticed. Yeah.

Rod Lacey (01:11:29.538)
Yeah.

Steven Smith (01:11:38.519)
I really do hope this person has a good interview and and maybe I'll get an update later and we'll update later. So we'll go from there.

Tony Benjamin (01:11:44.433)
Yeah. So hey Rod, is there anything you wanna you want to promote for us? Tell us about?

Rod Lacey (01:11:51.3)
No though the again there there's just one thing and that'd be kind of parting comments is just that if anyone has any needs that Steven or Tony could support them with, these are two superstar like business professionals, seriously, just best in the business. keep them in mind for for the the services they offer. These guys are are rock stars.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:02.836)
wow.

Steven Smith (01:12:12.577)
Nice. Thanks, Rod.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:13.191)
Wow. That was the best promotion we've ever had on the podcast. I'll j I'll just say that's right. Freaking A, yeah. that's thank you.

Steven Smith (01:12:16.387)
That's because it was about you, Tony.

Rod Lacey (01:12:17.069)
good. No.

No, I'm I'm I'm being serious. I mean, there's been so many great accomplishments between you two. that's that's what deserves the call out.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:31.621)
Including pocas. That's right. You think about it, that's a wide array of accomplishments. That's right. Including pocas. Well, you know. Rod, thanks for joining us today. We're thrilled. Thank you.

Steven Smith (01:12:31.689)
Nice. I appreciate it. Yeah.

Steven Smith (01:12:40.577)
Nice. Nice.

Yeah. Really appreciate it.

Rod Lacey (01:12:45.635)
Thank you.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:48.903)
Woohoo! Okay, now stay away from the the velvet rope there. Be careful. They're gonna they're gonna get close and they wanna touch you. You're that big of a deal. So we're thrilled, Rod. Thanks for thanks for being here with us. We really, really, really appreciate it.

Rod Lacey (01:12:57.709)
Ha ha ha.

Rod Lacey (01:13:04.431)
All right, thanks gentlemen. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Tony Benjamin (01:13:07.441)
Yeah, so okay, we're gonna do our our charity read, then we'll head out of here. When a child faces a serious illness, the entire family feels the impact. Thrive Life Project steps in to lighten the load, delivering nutritious meals and engaging STEM kits directly to families' homes, completely free of charge. It's more than support, it's a community of care. Learn more at ThriveLifeproject.org. That's thrivelifeproject.org.

And a shout out to Brock and what an amazing person he is today or he is. Even today I heard from him. He heard that the somebody that we know in common had a death in their f a very tragic death in their family. And he was calling to let me know so that we could rally around that person. Amazing person. I love Brock. So there you go. Okay, well, gentlemen, thanks. I appreciate that. This was good. Had a good time. Yeah, I think I think we got I think we got analyzed all of this, and I think we'll head out the same way that we came in.

Steven Smith (01:13:48.225)
Mm.

Steven Smith (01:13:53.017)
Yes. Wow.

Rod Lacey (01:13:59.321)
Thank you so much.

Steven Smith (01:14:00.643)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:13.448)
Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review on your favorite podcast app. Comments or questions for us, email the podcast at the HRlife Podcast at gmail dot com. And we'll talk again soon. Because I finally found where that read was at.