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Listen to Prisons Inside/Out, a podcast from Correctional Service Canada. Follow along as we take you beyond the walls of our institutions, highlighting the important work we do to protect Canadians and change lives every day.
Kirstan Gagnon:
In part one of this episode, we heard Angie's powerful story. A journey of loss, resilience, and the impact of restorative justice through the Correctional Service of Canada's Restorative Opportunities Program. If you haven't had the chance to listen to that yet, please do so before listening to this. Please note that out of respect for the victims wishes, we created a two-part series on this theme.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Today we speak with the offender who participated in the program at the same time. As mentioned in the previous episode, and offenders’ participation in the program can offer an opportunity to take meaningful accountability for their actions, expressed remorse, provide answers directly to the person they harmed, and in some cases, take action to help repair some of the harm that was caused.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Our conversation today offers a glimpse into that exact story. Before we begin, I'd like to offer a quick sensitivity warning as today's episode does discuss violence, crime, grief, and trauma. If you or someone you know is struggling with the issues discussed, we encourage you to seek support. We've left some resources in the episode description below. Thanks for tuning in. And with that, let's get started.
Kirstan Gagnon:
So, thanks. Thanks again for joining me. Tell me a bit about yourself.
Offender:
I guess, I'm Indigenous, Plains Cree, Sioux and Irish from Flinders First Nations near Middle Lake, Saskatchewan. I was born in Regina. Been in prison majority of my life, and, I've become to be known as a prisoner and prisoners advocate and activist for human rights, Indigenous rights, prisoners rights, Yeah, that's pretty much how I've been living my life for the past 20 years. Almost.
Kirstan Gagnon:
So, we're here today to talk about the Restorative Opportunities Program in which you participated. We spoke with Angie, as you know, and she mentioned she was the one who initiated the process. How did you react when you learned that Angie had asked to meet with you?
Offender:
In regards to, Angie requesting to meet with me, you know, I was working with Dennis on something else, and then he let me know that there was actually a request for me, and, he informed me of Angie's, you know, intentions and thoughts, and I had no issue with meeting her. I was excited to, you know, work on the possibilities.
Kirstan Gagnon:
That's great. And, I'll say as well, Dennis is, the mediator in this case, and he's on the line with us today as well.
Offender:
Okay.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And so why did you accept to meet with Angie?
Offender:
Oh, I guess essentially, it's all about, you know, just making peace, know, with ourselves and also together with each other. But, you know, it was just I was shocked that she was the one that out of anybody that wanted to, mediate with me because I just remember throughout my life in prison and, you know, I've always had to reflect on things that I've done and experiences I've had. So the betrayal experience, the court experience, it, I feel her and I had this strange connection through the court, despite how vocal she was for her brother. You know, just as she's meeting court, like taking, bringing his photo, to the hearings and, you know, also we, we actually had like a…There was one time where she actually turned around and like deliberately, very slowly mellowed the words I hate you. She looked back at me and I always remember that. And, so I just and then hearing her victim impact statement, I felt like is as empowering and I just something about hers always kept clean in my head throughout the years. And so she's having those experiences with her. And then all of a sudden thinking, just thinking about how she, she hates me the most or how much she hated me to actually stare me dead in the eye and tell me that, you know, and then all of a sudden, now she's interested in, at the very least, meeting with me, facing, facing her perpetrator, you know. Which I thought was courageous in itself.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And how did that make you feel when you were approached.
Offender:
I was ready. I was ready because I was when I was younger, in my early 20s, I was actually, inquiring about restorative opportunities when I was in British Columbia. And, it never panned out there. But I've always had an interest because the way I felt about my crime, even though I was a young, dumb kid, you know, and I was gaining notoriety off my offenses and stuff like that. There was always a part of me I did bother me that I did. I hurt them, and so I spoke with Angie about all the preparation that goes into, setting up a meeting like this where you would meet face to face with a victim of crime and before that all came together.
Kirstan Gagnon:
How did you prepare on your end?
Offender:
Well, you know, like I said, I feel I felt ready, but I still had to be aware and insightful of her feelings throughout the entire process. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't hurt her again. You know, with word or action or whatever, whether it's preparation or whether it's during the meetings. I wanted to just take care of her you know, but there's a lot of planning involved with the mediator. You know, Dennis was having to set up times to interview me, meet with me, talk to me on the phone. You know, engage in a lot of communication with my parole officer, who helped me a lot. So there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are trying to figure this out, because allowing a victim to come into an institution and face the perpetrator, for as good as the, I guess the, the purpose was they still have to make sure it doesn't jeopardize the security or institution. So there's a lot of people making decisions and coming together and yeah. You know, and there's a lot of work on Angie's end as well.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Well I know that there's a lot of preparation that goes into it, but, how did you feel. It's kind of sitting down and, having these conversations 1 or 2 days before the meeting.
Offender:
You know, I felt calm and appreciative. I just remember the morning I was walking from my unit all the way to the warden's building where we had these meetings. And, the day just seemed fresh. It seemed exciting. It seemed like there was good, some something good was going to come out of that day. And, so I just felt calm, ready, appreciative that she was giving me this opportunity that I was even mature enough to and willing enough to to to see her as well and give her the opportunity to say what she needs to say, because I realized even though as much as it was about us, it was about her mainly.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And did it go as expected? What were some of your key takeaways?
Offender:
I had no real expectations because how do you really, you know, know what to expect in those moments, right. Like, I've never been in a situation like that. So you just kind of got to take it as it comes. It just everything that happened was unexpected. You know, as you said, how do I express how old my expectation is? I can't even begin to put one on them.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And so you, you went into this meeting with openness and answered all of her questions. How did that work?
Offender:
Well. You know, struggling for a while with just personal things going on in my life. And, so having this interactions, it brought something else to my life that I, that I needed because of the struggling and depression. And all of a sudden, you have this opportunity to to heal. I was going into this knowing that I needed healing. She needed healing, and we both wanted it. And I'm sure that we both struggled in our own ways, which got us to this point. And it's like we found our self worth, which I feel nurtures forgiveness. And it's also a way of, I guess, being altruistic in a way, because you have to be selfish in a sense, to focus on yourself and to become healthy. You have to put certain people on the backburner. And when you focus on yourself and your healing, to say the least, it is also selflessness because it will benefit so many other people. And I think that was the hard work that we both put in, and especially in that meeting, you know, we were able to, be honest and authentic. We were considerate of each other's emotions, maybe potential reactions. I felt comfortable. She made me feel comfortable. I felt it was safe. I think that's one thing that we both agreed on, that it actually felt like a safe environment. And we challenged each other on our truths. You know, whatever we believed, we were able to say it. And we, we didn't judge each other for what we felt.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Thanks for that. It's pretty powerful. And then what would you say happened after the meeting. Was there any follow up that needed to occur or were there additional meetings or communication.
Offender:
We had two. We had two back to back meetings. It was up to her. I left it at her core, what she wanted to do. You know, it was May 2nd, May 3rd of 2022, but we, we felt also that there was a lot for each morning. So in the afternoon, it was more time for us to just process everything that we were, experiencing and feeling in that in those moments of, in those meetings and, I do want to say that prior to this meeting, I wasn't really one to, really believe or trust in the concept of truth and reconciliation. And just because everything that my family's been through, that I've been through personally, things I've seen other incarcerated people and their loved ones go through, as Indigenous incarcerated peoples. But with Angie's insights and the way she was able to explain her intentions and what triggered them, I really felt that she was one of those people that made truth and reconciliation a real thing. And since then, I've been able to…utilize what she taught me through her forgiveness. And I've been able to... practice that same type of forgiveness to a degree. Because obviously, every situation is different, but I've been able to forgive other people for wrongs or slights or whatever I feel they deserve the forgiveness for. You know, like who am I to not forgive someone for somebody for something they've done? That was, you know, less than. And but I find it in, in an individual effort you know that really impacts the collective actions speak louder than words. And she had a lot of things to say to me. But her actions were, were the most impactful.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Let's talk a bit more about forgiveness. When I spoke with Angie, she mentioned that she forgave you for who you were that day. 18, over 18 years ago. How did you receive that?
Offender:
Unexpectedly. But first reaction was just instant tears. You know, and, I felt relieved. I still felt a little bit like. I felt like I could feel like her pain in the moment where I felt euphoric at the same time. If that makes any sense. But it was just. It was a it was a surreal feeling. And, people can say, I'm sorry or I forgive you. All these types of things, but you never really know when they mean it. But just when she looked at me, the way she looked at me and how she said it, just all of everything in the energy in that room and coming from her, from Dennis, myself, which is felt the most genuine, pure, purest moment of my life. And all I could do was really cry.
Kirstan Gagnon:
How did going through this process change you or change your perspective? You spoke a bit about it, but would you encourage other people to, participate in such a program?
Offender:
Of course. I would, they would have I would have to say, you know, you have to you have to come from the deepest part of your heart. You have to be sincere about it. It has to be raw. It can't just be something that you want to do just because you want to potentially make yourself look good for the parole board or something like that. Because when you go through something like this, you're not allowed to mention it to the parole board, you know, to your peers, not even allowed to write it in her little blurbs after they she has a meeting with you. You know what I mean? So it's basically like, To do it for the right, like, yeah, you have to give the right reasons and it's, and it's basically kept on the hush. You know, it's for you and that individual. It's for your guys’ growth, your healing, your, for you as a, to really develop your self-worth even more, you know, like it's, it's, it's kindness. It's humanity. It's all of that. No, it's a lot of good things. But you have to have the good intentions. You can't just come in there. You trying to be selfish.
Kirstan Gagnon:
That's great. If you could tell Angie one thing about your meeting that you still think about today. Something that guides you. What would that be?
Offender:
Marcus…yeah. I think that's something special that I won't share with anybody, but she knows what it means. You know what's the power behind it.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And Angie talked about the work that she does now with Indigenous youth. I thought that was pretty powerful in terms of that kind of full circle. And, and what happened in her case, but also how she uses that to, teach others and to, help them learn as they move forward. How does that resonate with you?
Offender:
Well, she's just contributing to the Seven Sacred Teachings. You know, and she's not even Indigenous, you know, which is which is beautiful because she's able to take practices of broken, hurting people and help them break the cycles. She has a big responsibility with, with the work that she does. And, I don't think there's anybody better.
Kirstan Gagnon:
So, this whole process seems very emotional. Also very personal. Why did you agree to talk to us about your journey?
Offender:
More spread awareness. To share a beautiful experience that has the power to impact many people and it's just about, common love for humanity and community and trying to make the environment a better place for the next generation.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And you have an opportunity and you mentioned that you, work with other inmates as well to help them along in their journey. And what would you say to anyone looking to, participate in such a program? I mean, not everybody's at the same stage, right? Not everybody's.
Offender:
It's true. That's true. Not everybody's in the same place in their journey, you know? And, I come out, I came at this from a spiritual perspective. You know, other people may come at it from a different perspective, but, this was, this was, this is where the healing really happened for me. Through corrections, the best thing CSC ever could have done for me was allow me to participate in restorative opportunities, because the healing that came from it, you know, you could take a program and you can go to the Culture Center and learn all these things, whether you apply them or not, that's on you. But to actually be faced with this individual, you hurt and there's no running away from it. We both want the same thing. You both want healing, then you know, that's and ultimately that's where it led for me and Angie. And you and I, we we've got the best case scenario, I believe, out of the restorative opportunities process. And, I'm grateful for it.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time, to tell your story, to put yourself out there.
Offender:
Thank you. Appreciate you. Take care.
Kirstan Gagnon:
So, following that interview with the offender, I spoke with Angie again to see what her impressions were of the interview and here's what she had to say. So, Angie, you had a chance to listen to the interview with the offender. What were your thoughts?
Angie:
My thoughts were kind of two part two, actually. First off, I, was kind of touched at some of the thoughts and feelings, that he shared. It's interesting to see from another's perspective and to kind of understand that I've helped him along the way, too, and it was a process for me. But that kind of led into a different feeling for me as well. And I felt, again, a little bit of of guilt and kind of unease with that at the same time, because I, I still struggle with the fact that I've lost my brother and the whole situation, and I struggle with what that legacy is going to be. But I think it helped me realize another part to this whole thing is that sometimes the world just needs to cause some hurt. And, letting go of hurt doesn't mean that I have gone soft or I've, really just kind of wrapped the whole ordeal up. It's just a different. Just allows me to kind of heal within myself and just. Let's just let some hate go and let some resentment go.
Angie:
Along the way. I know I talked last time about being, Catholic school teacher and, after all of this happened, I guess the part that I didn't let people know either is that the first time I met Eastender, I was, I was 20 weeks pregnant, and, the next day, I was no longer 20 weeks pregnant. I ended up losing, Yeah. I ended up having more loss. Just of putting my body through all of that stress. So, I've had to work through kind of a lot more than other people in my family have in this situation. And so I found myself going to really find some extra help. And I ended up going to a little bit of, Healing Lodge where, I had time with a priest every day.
Angie:
And, I'll never forget one thing that he reminded me of. And, it actually took this to remind me of it again. He had said, forget and forgive is not a way that we can heal our hearts. We have to forgive. Forgive and remember differently. And I think that's what I am realizing after all of this again, is that I need to forgive and clear all that hate. And I also need to remember differently. And part of that is remembering my brother's legacy differently. Now remember remembering who my brother is.That's really it and the and the great things that he has done. I can do something great in his legacy, too. Then that's bringing positive to a situation that isn't. And it's hard to find the positives in.
Kirstan Gagnon:
So where would you say you're at in your healing journey now?
Angie:
I would say that today I'm having a good day. And, the, the one thing that I have noticed is that I really have to enjoy those good days because, I never know what the next day is going to look like. And I think that's part of this whole process is, like I've mentioned before, some days it's like my brother, my brother's death was yesterday, and some days it seems like it's been so long and you just never know which day you're going to get. And I like to know that there's a lot more good days together, and when I have those good days to enjoy them. Sorry. I know it was hard hearing his his, hearing the offender's voice a little bit was hard. And hearing and sometimes hearing, like, how much work and how much he's done is kind of hard. And I think that hit me a little bit more than I intended it to, because you want people to find positivity and to right wrongs, but at the same time, it's still hard to, understand that he took something huge from me and that having that, forgiveness is almost a daily choice.
Kirstan Gagnon:
So knowing what you know today, would you participate in the Restorative Opportunities Program again?
Angie:
100%. I would, like I said, I've found so many positive things, and even now I'm learning so much more about myself than I did three years ago when I when I met with the offender. I am still learning so much about myself. I'm still learning so much about him in the process too. And, I'm learning how to control some of those feelings I'm feeling and how to, sometimes just even learn to sit with them and sit with the, hard feelings and be okay with that. Does that make sense?
Kirstan Gagnon:
It makes sense. And, you know, you're quite an amazing person because there's a lot of wisdom that comes out of what you say and what you've shared here. And I think it's probably going to help a lot of other people that are listening as well. So thank you.
Angie:
And see, that was another thing that I had a hard time with. And this is something that, Dennis and I spoke a lot about is if I can do it, I feel like anybody can. And when I'm congratulated for doing it or somebody is like, wow, that took a lot of courage. And even the offender said, I can't believe she did this. I look at it, well, if it was me and I'm just me and I don't want to be looked at any differently than that, and it's just something that I felt they had to do. So even having people kind of talk about it and how amazing it was and and it was and it was life changing. But it's still hard to accept that, of course, because I just I did it and I had to do it, and I forced myself sometimes to do it, even though it was necessary for me in my healing journey. I just I feel like sometimes if I can do it, anybody can. So I want to help people do that and I want to do that. I'm just somebody that thought they could, and I did so wonderful.
Kirstan Gagnon:
Well, thank you so much for, for coming back today and also for, for being part of this podcast. I really appreciate all of our conversation. And, and the wonderful things you were able to share about your experience.
Angie:
Thank you. Thank you for kind of, letting me…I don't know, let's get the last word is what I wanted out of this process. But I did want to just remind, anybody listening to this that every day people can do extraordinary things. And I think that's what happened here. And the other thing is, dealing with the offender, he is where he needs to be for what he did. And as much as I forgive who he was that day, I'm still kind of grateful that we have a system that's holding his actions accountable and making him work to better himself, to.
Kirstan Gagnon:
And again, thank you for taking time out of your work today to, to join me. I really appreciate it. This concludes part two of our episode on the Restorative Opportunities Program. Thank you to the guests on today's show for sharing their time and perspectives. If you want to hear more stories like this, we'll include a link in the description to the 20th Anniversary Restorative Opportunities Program page, where you can read, listen, and watch other experiences from participants in this program. I've been your host, Kirstan Gagnon. Thanks for listening.