Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A show to explore what being autistic in the workplace looks like today. We focus on understanding late diagnosed autism and its relationship to leadership, technology and identity in the workplace today. With as many as 1 in every 3 adults potentially being non-neurotypical, we must do away with the stigma and learn how to work with each other without disregulation and emotional suffering.
Many of the people you'll hear on the neurospicy at work podcast are from either the technology sphere or from the world of agile. This is because, as I have said many times before, when it comes to agility in the business world, those of us who are neurospicy do better than others. It is entirely a theory of mine that I would like proven by science eventually. But of the examples that I bring to this podcast, today's example is most prevalent if you wish. Chris Stone is an amazing individual, someone who calls himself the continuous improvement coach and someone who has changed the lives of many towards understanding how to work with each other in teams, how to make sure that their flexibility exists and how to make sure that their diverse characters rhyme with each other.
Duena Blomstrom:Chris himself is diagnosed with ADHD. And in this episode, he tells us the story of how that affects himself, his work, and what he's learned about himself on this journey. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to NeuroSpice at work. I have Tristan with us today. And as you heard in the intro, he's someone who means a great deal to our community in the agile and technology sphere.
Duena Blomstrom:But, he's more importantly someone who is very courageous in speaking about his diagnosis. So welcome, Chris. Thank you for accepting my invite. At long last, we might make the time. Thanks.
Chris Stone:It's a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. I'm sorry it took so long. And, yeah, happy to be here, share my experiences around neurodiversity at work in the workplace
Duena Blomstrom:and otherwise. I'll start by asking, from the get go kind of whether, or not you are formally diagnosed and what that diagnosis is and more importantly, when did you start disclosing in the workplace?
Chris Stone:So, I am formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist and I do take medication for it. This happens around 1 and a half, 2 years ago. So I'm 38. Late in my life, you know, I'm I'm a long way into my journey. Lots of lots of years with no idea that I was, neurospicy.
Chris Stone:And to be honest, as soon as I was diagnosed, I told people straight away. It was just, I I've I've been honest in the past about my depression as well. So I've always been, open to sharing real experiences. And in my experience, whenever I have done so, everyone is so appreciative. They they will often message me privately and say thank you for sharing that.
Chris Stone:You know, that that experience really resonates. It's amazing for someone of your, I guess, presence online to be comfortable sharing that sort of thing. So it's to me, it's an important part, of my working ethos and principles in life to help others feel comfortable talking
Duena Blomstrom:about various facets. And thank you for for putting it that way. I I know exactly what you mean. I get, on average, about 5, 10 messages once any of these episodes airs with people saying this this is good that, you know, we hear people that like us have been around on on social media and particularly LinkedIn with with a certain professional stance, let's say, I was gonna say status, but that's really self important for no reason that kind of to hear those experiences and to hear being as open as that. I will say that between, you know, the 2 of us, if we were to compare, you're a lot more open than I had been.
Duena Blomstrom:I was forced into disclosure and didn't do it as voluntarily as that. But now that I have, I can absolutely see that I should have done this sooner. It hasn't really changed much. But I was going to to ask in terms of something you've mentioned is really important. I don't think we've had anyone on the show yet who has openly said that they are on medication.
Duena Blomstrom:I am too. I know that it's, it's a it's a topic of interest to most of the people that are listening to this because making that decision of whether or not to take any medication, in particular, if you're late diagnosed, is not as straightforward as that. So when you found out that, you said it's is it a clear diagnosis of ADHD or is the ADHD combined with is it AU ADHD or ADHD on its own? And and how did you make that decision towards medication?
Chris Stone:So a diagnosis is ADHD. They did query some things and I think they were at the same in the same vein when they are doing the diagnostic testing with, I think it's DSM 5. They are trying to work out if there are other things that impact you as well and there wasn't that I mean, there were there were hints of things that may may suggest autism as well, but for me, it was primarily ADHD, a combined inattentive and hyperactive. So no strong wet white way either either or. And when when I was diagnosed, again, you're intrigued, I found myself, like, hyper focusing on learning everything about ADHD, people's experiences, how they handled it, what next.
Chris Stone:And, like, the next weeks months, I was just researching everything, consuming all the materials about this because I was like, wow. This makes so much sense. Oh, my god. When you speak to, a psychiatrist, and you get your diagnosis, they present options. They can say, well, you you've got this, you've got this, and and and medication is one of them.
Chris Stone:And you can go into a a process called titration, where they begin you on a a dose of something, and then you meet with them again and again, and and you and you share experiences. So the decision for me, to take medication was because, fundamentally, if I wasn't, I'd basically be accepting a harder reality. Right? It's like I've been playing a video game all my life on hard mode, completely unaware, and that some of the things that I, found difficult were because I couldn't motivate myself. I didn't get the dopamine reward.
Chris Stone:I didn't get the desire to keep doing something like, I don't know, cleaning the house or cooking or or admin. Admin is like nails on a chalkboard for me. So medication for me was all about bringing myself back to an, just a a normal level that others are experiencing rather than just accepting our harder reality.
Duena Blomstrom:Thank you for sharing kind of what what it looked like for you. I saw not very long ago something that finally made sense for me and I wish I was told ages ago a description by a neuroscientist that was thinking about particular patient they had who had struggled all her life, couldn't really tell why she she was suicidal when he met her. He started kind of running some tests. He he had an idea that she would be on the spectrum because she she had diagnosed already diagnosed child. And, and then, obviously, he started seeing physically the the the changes in her cerebellum in terms of motivation and and where the the parts of activity in her brains weren't really firing like they should.
Duena Blomstrom:And kind of all of her long history started making sense. Those late nights of learning right before an exam, everything that you didn't learn for 3 months and so on. And so while he was telling the story, he was saying when I set her down and I said I were clear that you do have ADHD. In fact, you have AU ADHD. It's a combination.
Duena Blomstrom:She was super upset and to kind of calm her down as he said, well, look, I wear glasses. Not because my eyes are crazy or stupid because my eyes are shaped differently. I need to wear glasses. So if you start taking medication, it will be like your brain with glasses. And I thought to myself, there is an exceptional definition of how it feels.
Duena Blomstrom:A lot of people talk about this moment when they finally got the medication and how much of a difference that made in their lives. I personally didn't find a massive shock difference myself when I started medication, but it was precisely that it's like your brain with glasses. You can finally see things clearer and focus on them. So, yeah, those 2, examples are good, I think.
Chris Stone:It's a great example. And you've reminded me, and I'm happy to tell a story about my first experience of medication. So I remember taking it, and I I went and did some sports, some intense physical exercise. And then I was in the shower, and I realized my mind is quiet. And that was a really strange experience.
Chris Stone:And I remember just being in the shower and just kind of feeling the the warmth of this on this on my skin from this hot shower and how pleasant that was. And I was just content just being there in the moment, enjoying that experience. I wasn't thinking, right, you've got 5 minutes to shower because you've got a list of other things you've got to get on with. I was just enjoying there and the now, and I was like, wait. Is this is this what my mind like, is this what other people's minds are like?
Chris Stone:They can just exist in one moment rather than thinking about all the tabs open in my head. You gotta do this, you gotta do that, you got this to do list thing to do, move on. A shower at that point in time was just a functional thing, get clean because there's other shit to do. So my first experience with, medication basically quieted my mind. And combined with very intense exercise, that's what I can get to.
Chris Stone:What I would say is that as I've taken more of it, it doesn't have the same immediate quieting effect. What I tend to find is that it helps me make the process of getting started with something easier. So it's not a it's not necessarily a it's not gonna give me motivation. Right? Because my I'm never gonna be motivated to wanna clean the house.
Chris Stone:So I'm never gonna be motivated to respond to emails because there's there's 0 in that for me that I enjoy. But it does, combined with good systems, you know, routines, combined with those two things, it helps me do that stuff Right. Without putting off and off and off and off. And then the longer it goes on and on, like, it's just hanging over you and it's a mental drain, and and then you begin to have the negative self talk. Why haven't you done that yet?
Chris Stone:Why can't you just do that? Etcetera, etcetera. So it's definitely helping me in my experience.
Duena Blomstrom:Exceptional point. And thank you for so much for for describing that because I found equally that that is precisely I stopped putting things off. I don't I'm not sure everyone has the same experience, but I heard this multiple times. There is an entire choir of ways in which we procrastinate from the from reward, from sticking carrot continuously to yourself in terms of things you're not doing. And that entire thing kind of goes away because things that you would otherwise put off indefinitely and loathe and fear and so on, you actually get through with without having to do that massive effort.
Duena Blomstrom:And I think that's that's the biggest plus for, in terms of getting the medication. And most everyone knows that it's not it's not without risks. And I think it's worth saying here that for anyone considering it, getting the correct dose, as as Chris was saying, making sure that you titrate with the help of a real psychiatrist that knows what they're doing, that's not necessarily a given these days It's super important, but finding the correct dose and using that on on the days that you otherwise would cause yourself more trauma to just get through life is incredible. So, completely advise people to just check if that's an option for them. Thank you for for that story.
Duena Blomstrom:That's that's rare and and important. Chris, as I was saying earlier in in the intro and stuff, you, are in our world a name you you exist, in this space of in between kind of technology and people, I would say, where where we figure out how to make humans able to produce technology. How have you found that your your neurospiciness fits in this particular area when we come to talk about agile and project management and creating products in technology and doing that with teams that are capable of doing it?
Chris Stone:For me, I am often told that I am limitlessly creative. That was generally someone someone said to me exact today exactly. And when it comes to creating, finding, experimenting with new ways of working that help businesses deliver value, but also help people feel, you know, not dread Monday mornings, put it that way. I have all the ideas and I I love just creating new ways of doing things and sharing those people. And I know that's essentially how I I I achieved my presence.
Chris Stone:It began with, retrospectives and adding themes to retrospectives like Game of Thrones or Tinder or basically, give me a topic and I could create something that I could then tie into a way of a of a team or a person improving. And it's it's basically that. It's, there's a problem to be solved and immediately lots and lots of ideas come through. And then not only will those ideas come, I'll then combine them with how I've seen things been done in other industries that you might not expect them to be done with. And And then and then it just result results in new ways of doing things that bring about impacts.
Chris Stone:So for me, it's, an absolute ideas machine. And if if you if I am in any way motivated by, you know, what I'm what I'm doing, like a particular challenge, then I I work I'll work on that relentlessly.
Duena Blomstrom:I love that. And I think that's really important for neurotypical people listening to this who are trying to kind of figure out whether or not there's value to be harnessed out of, neurospicy workers. 100% there is, but obviously that match with with finding the thing that causes hyper interest causes, your your creativity to go into hyperdrive is key. And you can do that and match others as well more easily once you understand what what would get people who are neurospicy ticking. And I think these days, in particular in our industry, the fact that there is some conversation but not enough of it is is a pity.
Duena Blomstrom:The vast majority of people who are on the spectrum and are employed, which is obviously not a majority because unfortunately a lot of autistic people are not in gainful employment in general, but the ones that are would be in in within our industries, whether in tech or in in science, somewhere around those those parts. And I wish more kind of, organizational powers that we would would stop and think of of of ways to better fit neurospicy brains. So how much of that have you seen in terms of genuinely hand on heart? You know, we talk a lot about inclusion and equity and so on. But but is that in practice?
Duena Blomstrom:Have you seen it in practice in tech teams? Is there a lot of, discussion openly in the role of accommodation or smart programs you've seen anywhere? Anything you can you can think of?
Chris Stone:I definitely see increasing, awareness and focus being placed on the benefits of neurodiversity, and indeed accommodations being made for people that have, neurodiversity or have or are neurospicy. I see, at conferences, for example, it's common for them to have quieter spaces where people can go and just remove some stimulus and and recharge a little bit. You will sometimes see, stickers and labels that people can wear, which will say whether they are, you know, introverted or extroverted, how whether they like to be approached a certain way. Sometimes you see these great, badges people wear that has, like, an energy meter and says, like, I'm here or here, and that can give a visual indicator as to where someone is. Obviously, from a a facilitation and a a meeting perspective, we're we're seeing more awareness about the way people think differently.
Chris Stone:So enabling, you know, silent brain writing in meetings as a way of avoiding dominant voices taking over and just allowing people to to get their thoughts down before a conversation takes over. The invitation for quieter people to share their thoughts and the appreciation for them doing so, enabling anonymity, if that's something that prevents them from speaking up. I'm definitely seeing more being done to help here. There's still obviously a a long way to go, but there there there are
Duena Blomstrom:some That's that's hopeful. And I think we don't say this enough. There are small things that are techniques that could be super useful. Some of the things we've mentioned on this podcast before have been an exchange of ReadMails at the beginning of, of meetings, sort of when when those themes are storming and and starting to create themselves. And obviously this small thing that you've mentioned earlier is a very practical thing that I wish more people did.
Duena Blomstrom:You can buy these badges on online, considering your your I think it says social battery, and and you can move that up or down depending on how you feel. And we we have those in in our team. I I buy them every Christmas for everyone that I know. They're very useful for neurotypical people as well. Everyone's social battery does deplete eventually.
Duena Blomstrom:It's just that when what neurospicy might happen to us slightly faster than it does for people who are differently built. So thanks for that. That's really important. And and one thing that people could do in the workplaces instead of waiting for, you know, their their CEOs and their heads of HR to make these massive changes, these type of things, that's a change that any team leader could do. You can buy a bag of 10 of those and hand them to everyone.
Duena Blomstrom:And it will seem silly at first, but potentially, but it would be undoubtedly a, a godsend for for most meetings. And and I love what you mentioned. Quiet time, ability to write down before you speak is is big in particular when it comes to facilitation. So all of those will make a difference. And like I said, there's a lot to be done, but even small things like that will will move the meter and and in your advocacy above all.
Duena Blomstrom:So the kind of stuff that I'm curious about is now that you know so much more about the topic and I know you know a lot because let's face it, all of us have went through one of these. Let me get a PhD in what all it means to be part of this tribe. When you look at your own behavior at work now versus before you knew, would you say that there are changes? Do you have new strategies in place? For instance, how do you deal with, RSD, rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, and do you get that?
Duena Blomstrom:And, do you get that at work? And how how do you put it aside?
Chris Stone:I'm just gonna tell a quick story because, otherwise, I'm gonna forget it, and it'll really annoy me. I don't know about you, but when I am chatting to people, there'll be constant, like, thinking, I wanna say something that. I wanna say something. I wanna say oh, no. No.
Chris Stone:No. Be respectful. Calm down. Wait. Wait.
Chris Stone:Let them share their thought. And then by the time a good moment arises, you're like, oh, I've forgotten what I wanted to say now. That's, yeah, outside out of mind. Too many thoughts in my head. You mentioned user manuals or readme files.
Chris Stone:That is a technique I use whenever I'm on stage, whenever I'm working with a new team, I show my readme file. And it's got things on there about how I prefer to communicate and what I'm motivated by and, you know, what I struggle with. So I'm I'm upfront about that right from the beginning. And what's fascinating to me is that I created that or had that created before I was diagnosed. And then with the new lens of, oh, I have ADHD, I looked at that file and went, oh my god.
Chris Stone:Like, there are so many triggers or or things on there that show clearly you have ADHD. It shows on there, you know, struggles of too much work in progress. It shows that I'm I'm not a 9 till 5 guy. I'm, like, intense burst of energy, do some chill time, then more and more intense burst of energy. And it was just fascinating to see that, you know, with a with a new lens of light of, of knowledge to be able to call.
Chris Stone:Yeah. That's why you do that and that's why you do that. To to your question, RSD, I I have experienced this. Don't I don't believe it affects me heavily. The reason being, my ADHD comes with a comorbidity comorbidity background of, depression.
Chris Stone:And the way I experience depression is emotional numbness. Like, I don't experience emotions very strongly. The term alexithymia, which means no words for emotions, it basically means for me, emotions feel like when you're underwater and you can hear sounds, but they're, like, far away. How I experience motions. They're like shallow or temporary.
Chris Stone:And as a consequence, whenever someone asks how are you, I'm like, yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:I'm
Chris Stone:alright. Just because I exist in this neutral middle ground. Sometimes there are things that do trigger RSD. And what I find is it almost becomes the hyper focus. It's like, okay, I can't not think about that.
Chris Stone:And I can give you a scenario where on a Friday afternoon, I was due to join a meeting with, someone in my network. I was believing we were going to be talking about a keynote talk I was going to be giving, and I learned some something that was it was going to be a reason why I couldn't be the keynote speech speaker. And, at the time it was very vague. There wasn't any detail as to where I was. And basically, the result of this kind of feedback being so vague but also negative meant that my whole weekend was spent like, what did I do?
Chris Stone:What was the situation? How could I have avoided it? But I don't know how, etcetera, etcetera. So what I would say is if you're communicating with someone who is neurodiverse, who is neurospicy, try to be clear about what it is you would like them to do. Because if you leave it unknown and vague, that can be so harmful.
Chris Stone:It can it can genuinely damage someone's time in a big way from a mental perspective.
Duena Blomstrom:That's a big key message there. The clarity of communication is is absolute key. And we I hear this every time I talk to someone in in one form or another, which is just speak to us as clearly as possible. Tell us what it is irrespective of you don't have sugarcoat anything. Just be as factual about things as possible because that's the only way that you can avoid hurting someone who has, who might be reacting differently.
Duena Blomstrom:So, yeah, thanks a lot for making that point. Clear communication, allowing people to kind of tell you who they are with these. This is who I am. Read me is allowing them to tell you how they feel right then considering they know, with their little slider. All of those things are takeaways that anyone can do tomorrow to to to change the way that they interact with others at work.
Duena Blomstrom:And I think I would you not say that that's more likely to be the way that, the workplace is going to change or be from from small grassroots sort of actions as members of the team more so than from CEOs deciding to offer inclusion to, autistic people? I think
Chris Stone:it needs to be handled from both. So when you have a leader demonstrate and lead by example, a a behavioral change. Right? We have an intent to do x. We want to be a more welcoming place for different people.
Chris Stone:That can be a very powerful message. That can help galvanize and get others on board. The problem is is that's not enough. Right? Change doesn't come from words alone.
Chris Stone:They can inspire change but if you have someone saying, hey, we want to do this, but then they start behaving the opposite, that's more harmful. So I think I think the the upper level, you know, at a at a c suite or or from a leadership perspective, the communication, we have an intent to do something and here's what we'd like to do. And, hey, you know what, we don't have the answer, but we'll learn. And we'll try, we'll learn. Coupled with the the small grassroots micro changes that everyone can chip in and make, those will begin to demonstrate through action, not just words, that change is desired, that, we support diversity, that people's differences in ways of working and thinking is welcome.
Chris Stone:And that, I think, will contribute to a a workplace where we are embraced and, celebrated first. That's really good.
Duena Blomstrom:To when when we'll attack this from both sides, we'll we'll get to somewhere better, hopefully. Maybe last question because as I said, well, not everyone has a longer attention span ourselves. How do you feel about this, mandated RTO come back and sit down or else? What will that be doing for our industry, and what do you think is the impact on Doctor Vazalore NeuroSpicy?
Chris Stone:I think the companies that have a zero tolerance or a an arbitrary, you must be in x days a week policy without a clear arbitrary you must be in x days a week policy without a clear underlying reason why supported with data saying that there's a reason we're all back in and without flexibility to appreciate the differences in needs of a a diverse workforce, then those companies will be harming themselves. They will they will suffer the losses of great people to other companies that do have flexibility and do appreciate different differing needs. If I was ever forced to go back into an office 5 days a week, 1, I wouldn't do it. And, 2, all they'd be getting would be a a worse version of me. Alright?
Chris Stone:They'd be getting Chris lite. They'd be getting me on, you know, me just me not not me not me being my best self. They'd get less ideas. They would get less, productivity. Because fundamentally, if I go into an office, and spend the time commuting and and on the commute, there's, like, a 100 little decisions to make.
Chris Stone:You know, you gotta get to the train station. You gotta get there is the problem I find with ADHD in particular is I don't just see one task, I see all of the tasks related to that task, and that can cause energy drain. So by the time I get to the office and I've commuted, I've already spent a load of energy. And then when I'm there, it's it's noise, it's stimulus, which can be draining as well. You know, the conversations that they talk about being great for, you know, innovative ideas and also be just as damaging in terms of me being creative.
Chris Stone:Then you have things like, you know, temperature. I I don't know about you, but I struggle with temperature. I I am sensitive to heat. And the problem is is if I'm in an office and it's too warm, it's very, very, not acceptable for me to remove certain levels of clothing. Right?
Chris Stone:If I start getting too warm, I can't take any more clothes off. But someone can put more clothes on if they get cold and that's fine. And, when I get too warm, right, my brain hyper focuses on how uncomfortable I am and there it stops focusing on the work stuff. So just a a temperature thing can become a problem for me. The impact I believe it will have on people is you'll have people going to work that aren't having their needs met, that aren't working in a way that best suits their working style or or or makes them their best selves.
Chris Stone:Those people will start to think about other opportunities. They may leave. The other and if they don't leave, their morale will be dropping, which, again, has an impact on how productive they are. So I think it's gonna be a huge, huge issue for companies if they take those hard and fast BNB
Duena Blomstrom:offices and else Everyone you heard this from, Kriston. It's not just anyone. So take heed because it does matter. And, I think the more we say that, the more likely it is that hopefully not it's not going to become a generalized let's attempt to forget COVID ever happened moment. So thanks for everything.
Duena Blomstrom:I have another 50 questions, but I know that no one will be listening past this point. So I just give you the opportunity to say something and wrap it up. And after that one, we can hopefully have you back.
Chris Stone:I would love to come back sometime. Probably, let's let's call it 2 years from now, by the time we both able to sync our diaries. This is just me joking. Don't worry. All I would say is I think neurodiversity is an amazing thing.
Chris Stone:I don't tend to refer to it personally as a superpower because I think that can belittle the genuine struggles that you you can go through. The mental torture, the the energy levels just being expended by existing for someone who's neurodiverse. I do think if you can be understanding of differing needs and co create environments that enable them to be their best selves and be supported so be their best selves on their best day and be supported on their worst day. That's that's something that I am motivated by. And don't tell my clients this because they tend to care more about the, you know, the zeros in the bank account and the profit and so on and so forth.
Chris Stone:But I care more about that side of things, helping people be their best selves and their best day, be supported on their worst, and not dread Monday morning because we are people first. We love that. Thank you so much.
Duena Blomstrom:Fundamentally. For putting it that way, and thank you for coming over, Chris. And hopefully, we'll get you back before the 2 years mark. Thanks again for today. Bye.
Chris Stone:Here's to hoping. Thank you. Bye.