Casuals vs PROS, Nerf Dive META and Pros are CHEATING?!?! Ft Trqstme & Lyte

In this POD episode we sit down with rank 1 tank player trqstme and dive pro Lyte on the state of the game and solutions to balance

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

Coach Mills (00:00.863)
What's up, guys, and welcome to a brand new ClearComms episode. Today we're joined by first returning guest, ProPlayer Light. What's up, bro?

Lyte (00:10.498)
Chillin' bro. Thanks for bringing me on again. Always a pleasure.

Coach Mills (00:12.427)
Hell yeah. Yeah, hell yeah, hell yeah. I can't wait to talk about Gene Gray with you. It's gonna be really, really cool.

Lyte (00:17.07)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (00:17.669)
yeah. Definitely one of our most requested guests throughout looking through the episodes.

Coach Mills (00:20.763)
Yeah, for sure. Every time.

And now joining us for the first time, Pro Player, Rivals Champion, Tank Main. Trust me. What's up, bro? How you doing?

Yeah.

TrqstMe (00:35.532)
Yeah, to discuss a little bit about the game that I lost, right?

Coach Mills (00:39.352)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's here to talk about how rivals is perfectly balanced and there's nothing wrong with it. Let's go.

Lyte (00:43.896)
We love devil dinosaur. Ain't that right, Trust?

Captain Coach (00:46.535)
Yeah, we'll we'll definitely get to that. Well, I guess in in light of that then, I I guess where we can start is last week we didn't have any pros on, had more of a content creator group where we talked about our thoughts on the pro scene and what it would need to really flourish and what direction maybe it would need to go in for the average person to want to watch it. So I was gonna send it over to you guys and you tell me like what direction

Do you think the pro scene needs and one of the things we brought up was a lot of like the most successful esports were were grassroots type movements where it was a lot of the community that had like more input in the direction of the actual rule sets of the games, the bands. So I know trust me, you you had a tweet recently where you talked about a custom game mode. I'm just gonna leave it open. What what do you think the direction of the

rivals esports scene needs or is it going in the right direction? we'll start with you trust me, I guess?

TrqstMe (01:54.52)
I mean for me there's there was like multiple things that we need to put separately, right? Like you said something about custom games and at the same time you said something about eSport. I do think things need to be treated separately. Having the main game be more popular is a very good way to get more people to watch esports. The more I mean you can bring in like

a hundred thousand people to the game and now ten thousand of them will watch eSports, that already is way more than you had before if you don't bring these people in. And having custom games, you know, and creating content with that, you know, making hide and seek or geo gas content in in Marvel Rivets or anything that you can like create in the custom games, you know, six versus three with goals and they have like twice the stats or something. And stuff like that, you know, funny funny stuff that people have in other games that would be something

To attract more people to the game, but when it comes to esports, there's a different perspective you can have. I don't really think one thing that is a problem for me is if the gameplay loop of the professional play is very similar to the gameplay loop of a casual. So if you watch it for the first time and you see 30 seconds, the gameplay looks exactly the same as your own gameplay, that makes pro play less attractive. And

There are some heroes that will force that and also there's not really a lot of like analytic effort when it comes to the professional scene. So people will be more confused about what they will see. You know, so mm it it doesn't really look like there's a lot of like great plays in it right now.

Captain Coach (03:30.923)
So would you say that's more of a result of just the way the game is kind of balanced, or is it like a lack of have we would like okay, so there's been like a lot of complaints about Dino, for instance, because he kind of dumbs down the game, creates just a a brain Okay, there you go. and I guess what I'm s kind of where I'm getting at is is the game's balance a hindrance to the viewability of the esport.

TrqstMe (03:46.715)
Part of it, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:49.287)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (04:00.16)
Would you say?

TrqstMe (04:01.923)
I mean it goes back to what I said, right? The problem with Dino is very simple. You have a character that gameplay loops is very similar to the people that play in lower rank. There's not really much of a difference you can make because the character is very big and very chunky and you can't really like go deep or anything. Everything is related to your backline in some sense and connection wise. Like you can go up in the right moments, but if your backline doesn't walk up in that time window, now the timing to walk up is suddenly bad. So the experience you have on Dino usually isn't the great

If you play for longer than like one hour a week. You know, if you play like most of us professionals, we play eight hours a day, you know, and in a dynamir where it is not really up to you when to walk up and you're mostly getting shot by Punisher and Moon Knight, it is not a very good experience as of right now because you don't really have a lot of counterplay. The hero is so strong that he still needs to be played, which makes it very frustrating to play right now.

Coach Mills (04:56.363)
S so would you say that one of the problems with the character is the lack of skill expression throughout his kit and the the the like the value of his skill floor is what you're saying? So like even when played at his base floor, he's getting like unbelievable value. It'd be like if Squirrel Girl, for some reason, was so powerful that she'd see play in pro play, and then she's like dominating in in r like in low levels too, or like penny, just like hypotheticals like this, like

TrqstMe (05:20.751)
Yeah.

It's it's like the the problem is also that you don't have other choices. Like if you say something about DPS or Squirrel Golden example, there's always the choice to flank and go behind. You don't have that on Dino. You have to play main. There is no other solution. If you flank on Dino, you are making a misplay because any other tank can take a flank better than you or Dino. So like the gameplay loop will consistently be you stay in main, you have to rely that like let's say the enemy plays like a hybrid dino dive comp and they dive your backline. If you're

back line doesn't clear the hit well you cannot walk up and then you're stuck never walking up eventually and when you do walk up you end up dying for it even though theoretically your backline should have cleared the hit sooner. So i the gameplay loop of the hero is just not nice to play.

Coach Mills (06:06.837)
So so how do you reconcile this? So, like, one of the problems, I think one of the reasons that a lot of casual players are kind of really hating on pros right now or like rejecting like pro mentality is because like in their mind they just want to play like the cool heroes, right? Like they they don't care about the pro scene all that much. And so, like, what would you say to those people when they say, we just want to play Dino, we just want to have fun, we don't care about y'all's gameplay loop in the pro level? Like, is there a way that

They can win and you can win. Is there a way that everyone can win? Or is it just one of those things where, you know, we could make Dino way weaker and he would still be played in Low Elo? What do you think?

TrqstMe (06:44.239)
That is the hardest thing. For me, it is kind of the way the game is designed. You know, I I kinda like I don't know how loud it is to talk about Overwatch in this podcast, but I Okay, okay.

Coach Mills (06:56.255)
You can talk about whatever you want. I actually I actually looked on your YouTube. I saw that you you used to do Overwatch, Diva to GM.

TrqstMe (07:01.647)
Yeah, I was I was one of the best Overwatch players in Europe in the European region, right? And I played it for many, many years in top five hundred and in competition as well.

Coach Mills (07:06.982)
nice.

TrqstMe (07:15.277)
My problem was when Brick was released, the hero worked similar to White Fox. The reason it was released was because casuals can't handle dive. In Overwatch, Dive has been perma meta, and at least in the beginning of the game and in Rivals, it's the same. Dive is a heavy meta, and this is like a leading issue that will happen with weaker rated players. Like there's something called a skill gap to some extent. Like if you look at like Marvel Rival Championship.

That are like

Let's say less celestial teams, right? They will have a harder time killing triple support than a top five hundred team because they are more connected to the hit. They focus the same target, they have better aim, so they will miss less shots. So the window of time to kill triple support and the amount of error there will be, because if you don't kill it, they will have free support holds, right? If you kill them faster, they will not have many free support holds. And then you have a way less room of error against that. So by having that all combined dive

is way, way stronger than

It i it it is it isn't, right? But because of the way it is unstructured and ranked, because of the way no one communicates, because everyone plays slightly worse, because nothing is timed well, now it feels like against these dive characters, you still need that White Fox hero to sustain yourself because it's it is still too strong. So now you have like a problem where it keeps being divided, where dive full speeds will be strong for all the pros, but it will be very weak and ranked. So you keep

TrqstMe (08:51.899)
adding these kind of disconnections to the game which will lead you in this gameplay loop of triple support anyway. You know what I mean?

Coach Mills (09:02.313)
No, I think I I think I understand what you're saying. I'm I guess I guess what what I wonder is where's the solution in that? Like how do you like that gap I feel like that gap's only gonna get wider and like those problems are only gonna get more severe, especially as the pro scene, like like I th the pro scene's still new. Like the gap between like you know, like l late stage Overwatch, the gap between a pro player and like a like a really high ranked top five hundred player was like massive by the end of that game and it it seems like that gap keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger every year.

Or every month even, like, the gap gets larger and like the ranked experience is so much disconnected from the pro experience and it's gonna keep being that way. but like when people struggle against something, it's hard to say, Well, with coordination and pro play, we actually deal with that super easily. This is actually not a problem for us. It's like where's that disconnect feels really hard to get people to agree to. Do you see what I'm saying?

TrqstMe (09:56.942)
I understand a hundred percent what you mean, but I do think we're getting a little bit disconnected because from the original question you said something about dino. And I do think what you would have to start in making dino more accessible is like giving him a better utility that feels like a higher skill ceiling. Like it can be anything. It can be like a a bubble across the map instead of like bubble on him, you know, it can be like like similar to how that works, reduce a little bit of the size

Or like maybe make the grab interact in a different way and like give it more of a of a gun in a way or make it the beam a little bit smaller size, like way smaller size, instead of like a large beam. But then again, you're kind of breaking apart that logic of like the coolness of the hero, right? So it is it is very hard to balance and unfortunately right now I don't really see a way, at least in the 10 minutes now that I think about it, I will have to think more about what an actual change could look like that I would want.

Captain Coach (10:55.105)
Light does Yeah, light does increasing the skill expression of the game help dive more or hurt it more, would you say?

TrqstMe (10:56.557)
Other than just say I want to rework, right?

Lyte (11:06.466)
think it yeah, I think it helps the game in general. Like we should always aim to have the hardest heroes in the game to play be the strongest because it makes the game more skill expressive and rewarding to play. Like characters like as much as I hate her, like Hella, Gene, Star Lord, Psylock, Daredevil, Black Cat, like these characters that are very difficult to play should always be strongest. And characters like Moira, Cloak and Dagger, Rocket should be weaker. And the whole gap that you guys are talking about between Devil Dino

And like like the the discrepancy between the opinion between pro play and like casual fun, you could still capture a hero's identity and fantasy while also making it healthy for the game. Like Dino is this issue where he's just like MAGA, where he's just this big sack of meat that just exists and you can't move him because his stats are too high. But if you lower his numbers too much, he becomes unplayable, worthless trash. And if you're playing the Dino,

You don't do anything besides you just sit there and you exist and the enemy team can't do anything. He's like the most passive value tank in the game, where you just being there to where anyone comes in your zone at all, they're grabbed, they're bubbled off from their heels, flyers are grounded by the beam, and you can't interact with the character whatsoever. And being the dino player means you're just sitting there taking it. Like you just can't do anything. You're just sitting there waiting for someone to make a mistake or to push into you, or for them to pick guns and shoot you and you die. It like it's not fun to play. It's really cool.

Like if an eight year old logs on and they're a big red dinosaur and and you know, like none of none of that I just said even matters because everyone is terrible. But as you go up, the character becomes more and more problematic. So it kinda reminds me of like Black Panther in a sense of like you have a really, really unique character, but the way that they're designed is so toxic depending on where you play at. And they should start approaching these heroes with it in mind of like, how can we make these characters more rewarding?

Coach Mills (12:32.937)
Yeah, yeah.

Captain Coach (12:33.345)
Hey, I like Dino.

Coach Mills (12:36.265)
That's sick. Yeah.

Lyte (12:57.644)
With it being more interactive to play as and play against. So like I I like what Trust mean was saying about like different changes that you could do to Dino, and I'm not exactly sure myself of how you could make him more interactive and like like not just playing against him, but playing as him where like I'm not just full AFK waiting for someone to do something, or I'm not just waiting to just get shot and die. But definitely the hero I think will going in the future will be a problematic character similar to to Panther or to I don't know, like what's another toxic character?

Like I wouldn't say blade. Blade's just shit.

Coach Mills (13:29.195)
Like like like Penny probably. Maybe p yeah, Penny, yeah.

TrqstMe (13:31.845)
Mean that everybody anything.

Captain Coach (13:32.235)
Penny.

Lyte (13:33.184)
I I think Penny, Penny, Penny. Yeah, like characters like that. I think he'll fall into that category. It's just his numbers are so good right now that he's like allowed to be where he is. But I hate playing as Dino. It's so boring. I just pick Punisher. Instantly.

Coach Mills (13:46.271)
Yeah. Yeah. It it it also it kind of feels like the mirror is or like like playing the mirror. I know trust me, you've talked about this a lot, but the mirror feels extremely, extremely boring. And in especially in ranked, it's super team reliant. Like if your team doesn't have a like a dino threat or like the ability to kill a dino that you grab, like you'll never win that that grab trade and it just feels like you're just standing there. Like you can't go in, you can't be aggressive, you can't grab him, like

Captain Coach (13:46.827)
No, I was joking. I I actually don't like playing either.

Coach Mills (14:13.747)
If you if your DPS is like Spider Man, like I don't I don't fucking know, like just two flankers, like you're never killing the dino.

Lyte (14:13.997)
Yeah.

Lyte (14:17.602)
Yeah. If they yeah, if they just have better front to back than you in ranked, you just lose. Like it's just that simple. If

Coach Mills (14:23.636)
Right. Yeah.

TrqstMe (14:24.257)
It also shifts sometimes. Like many people everyone has different opinion, no. Many people say you have to grab the enemy dino first, you know, and some people say you have to grab second. You guys would probably think grabbing second is better, right? But the reality the

Coach Mills (14:37.983)
I mean if you could kill him, but if it he feels like he can't

TrqstMe (14:40.847)
The reality is grabbing first is actually better because you can C C chain stun him with like a lunar freeze, cancelling his shift, and now he's out of position. So the problem is that doesn't happen in rank, so now you're the same problem where it's fully team reliant hero. And that is just the entire issue with the hero. Like there's just no no way to fix that right now.

Captain Coach (14:50.251)
Body block.

Lyte (15:00.446)
You know, individual agency. It's like it kinda reminds me, trust me, of of Wolf matchups. Like it's more volatile matchup of Wolf. Because there's like this kind of like FTSE game that you play with each other, kinda like a fighting game. And whoever gets the grab first typically wins. But Dinos is so, so much more like if you get grabbed and you have the characters on your team to follow up on it, you die. Like if you're grabbed you're Imma Walled or Imma grabbed or Group Big Walled, Luna, like you said. A wolf just like

TrqstMe (15:06.063)
Yeah. Yeah yeah.

TrqstMe (15:26.245)
Penny stunt, anything?

Lyte (15:29.398)
Like we like to play Groot Dino and then we just big wall the Dino, grab him, and then I tackle him right afterwards. He just takes eight hundred damage and dies. 'Cause he still has like that micro stun that you do on things, so yeah.

Coach Mills (15:37.077)
Yeah, yeah.

TrqstMe (15:41.338)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (15:42.443)
So we're we're saying then that Dino should not be allowed to be good in the highest levels of play until they raise his skill expression. Is that kind of the general idea here? Okay. So then I got two the two part question. Is there any type of hero that could be introduced that's not already in the game that would challenge Dino and

Lyte (15:51.266)
Yeah, I think so.

Captain Coach (16:03.659)
create like a system of counters to where he wouldn't just be a hard meta character. I know a lot of people like talking about triple DPS. I've heard like triple healer mantis and you like farm headshots on him is a really good counter to him.

Lyte (16:12.578)
Yeah, I mean any character with a gun, to be honest, like any character that has a gun and doesn't have to go near him will be good. It's like the same thing with Maugo.

TrqstMe (16:20.539)
I mean my my problem is still the same. The problem is the understanding even from the developers is too low in the game. As hard as it sounds, it's it's i also I have I have a lot to rant about. I think the general understandment and the

And the analysis of many people about what is good in the game, why something works, why something doesn't work, what counter swapping even is, what main and off tank even is, because everyone always says, you're main tank player or off tank player. No one knows how to define it. You know, like the general knowledge level of the game is so unbelievably low because the game is utterly complex, but there's so much things to worry about that like those f those really analytic and deep thoughts don't come to play. So now the entire issue will be

Many people don't know how to structure anything around any composition and they will literally just play the game. So it goes back into this casual scene where now you need to take away if you take away all of the dinos value, now you remove the idea from the casuals that the game will be fun. Right? So for me, like a problem is you we keep on adding these super overpowered characters instead of actually resetting the game to a state that isn't high mobility, that has longer cooldowns, has less dopamine in the sense.

Maybe give give less rehealing, give supports more damage instead of less instead of healing and have like a structure around that because that's that would be a step back towards state where it's not a high utility game anymore and maybe that would be more healthy, but I I'm not sure.

Captain Coach (17:55.497)
You said less dopamine, you know Net Ease used to make phone games, right?

Lyte (17:58.582)
Yeah. Yeah, they'll never. Yeah. I think Yeah. No, I was gonna say I think that you can still have like the max dopamine, but I think people don't actually like when people talk about balance of the game, I don't think a lot of people think about the fact that in low elo, or like in like a very casual sense, like every character is viable and good, it doesn't really matter. the harder arrows are obviously going to get less value because like i they take time and commitment in order to be better at. But like

TrqstMe (17:58.874)
Yeah, okay, that's that counter exit.

Coach Mills (17:59.9)
Yeah yeah. But but I but I see I s yeah sorry you can you can go you can

Lyte (18:27.778)
Why does why does someone's opinion about Devil Dino, like casual, like I want to get on and play the big red dinosaur? Why does that matter more than the person who's to get on and play Blade? Like Blade is terrible, has always been terrible, but there are still people to this day who log on and play Blade because they love Blade as their favorite superhero, and that's great. Congratulations, right? But no one's ever talking about Blade in the sense of like, well well, pro players just hate the fun of the game, blah blah blah. And like all this conversation or whatever, right? Like pros are only complaining about Dino because his kit is super super toxic the higher you go up

And you can nerf Dino and have it not be in pro play without it ruining a casual person experience because every fucking character is good in a casual experience. All of them. You can play whatever you want.

Captain Coach (19:03.925)
I agree. I agree.

Coach Mills (19:05.845)
So so I'm gonna I'm gonna play a little bit of of I forgot what the term is but I'm I'm gonna argue for the ca the casuals a little bit because I think it yeah there there that's what I was all right because the problem is mostly just when when something is brand new I feel like pros are the first ones to j like to figure it out, right? Like like something's brand new. Something just came out. Pros, y'all play a lot. Like we're consecrators, we play a lot too. You figure out the the broken shit. Like light knew that

Captain Coach (19:13.313)
You're gonna play devil dino advocate. That was it.

Coach Mills (19:35.775)
Black Cat was busted like d before the character even came out. Like, yeah, but he knew that shit already, right? And so when when like pros are all tweeting and like making videos and like like going crazy about like we need to this character should have never been related, nerf this character. And like someone came, you know, nine to five, they're coming home, they're like, ooh, I want to play Dino, and then like all they see is like, fuck this character, this character's terrible. Like, that's the disconnect. And I think that we'll run into this problem a lot where

Lyte (19:38.702)
I'll never say it. I'll never say it. That character's terrible. We need to buff it immediately.

Coach Mills (20:02.441)
Like Rivals is gonna continuously have this identity crisis between like this is a casual game just meant to have fun, but like there's actually ways to take this game to like a much deeper level, like y'all both do, you know, as pros. So like that's kind of the problem that you're always gonna fight. And I really just don't think there's gonna be a perfect solution here. But that's that's what I'll argue, is this like like Bril Blade, I think that over time the voices that were mad about Blade kind of quelled. But like when a new character comes out

That's when the voices are gonna be strongest because people wanna try the new thing, you know. That that that's my that's my you know, devil's dino advocate.

TrqstMe (20:37.253)
wanna say something about that because for me we're talking about an actual competitive environment game.

Right? there's nothing to say. I mean, you can you can judge Marvel Rivets and say it's more of a casual game, but any game in the world, anything that is multiplayer, will have competitiveness to it, to some extent. Even the casual who plays only one hour a week, if he does that for twenty weeks in a row, he will develop a ca a habit where he wants to push himself to a new limit because there is no dopamine to reach in the game.

He actually enjoys people will say they don't care about rank, but the same people will be the people that flame, that will be the people that like maybe care a little bit too much about rank, you know, hate on the people that throw games, you know, all of the stuff that will ruin their experience. If they truly wouldn't care, then it wouldn't be that big of an issue. But it is, you know. So it is wrong to say, even the casuals, that is not a real thing. They will play for 20 hours in the season, and suddenly they're not casual anymore.

anymore and then they will actually see character flaws as well. If you give them time right now and many people

have spent time now and will now see things differently than they sa saw in the first week. Now it's a different case. The problem is with rivals with new characters coming out, there is no time to experiment and there's no time to develop those feelings. Which is also why for a lot of players Daredevil is insanely broken. But for the Marvel rival develop developers that's not a big thing because most of the people that play the game cannot get to that state to realise how broken that is because there's already something new

TrqstMe (22:19.771)
out that it will be also also broken. So we cannot really like get the casuals to understand that state. And it will be the same thing with Devil Dinosaur. Cyclops will come out and all that was broken about Devil Dinosaur will be postponed. We saw it in Gambit, right? Five five months of Gambit being utterly broken because people in lower ranked don't play it because it's banned.

Lyte (22:33.078)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (22:33.643)
Ha ha

Captain Coach (22:37.793)
That's a great point.

Coach Mills (22:38.333)
Watch, he's gonna have like a one shot, like a beamed one shot. He's gonna Yeah.

Captain Coach (22:40.587)
Yeah. Yeah the the

Lyte (22:42.166)
More like s I'm pretty sure it's seven now, trust me, brother. Like I think I could double check actually. Yeah, wait, when did Gambit come out? It's season five, right?

TrqstMe (22:44.461)
Or yeah, I mean give it anything, right?

Coach Mills (22:48.905)
Yo you ever you ever play Smite? I know this is random pull. There's like there's like a beam ultimate. You know the beam ultimate from Raw? Like just a straight like beam through the t yeah, yeah, yeah, kinda. But like imagine like all at once, like an instant damage, like massive beam. Like huge damage.

Captain Coach (22:53.002)
I played it.

Lyte (22:57.357)
Like beepop?

Lyte (23:04.27)
Alright. Okay, it's been six months, trust me, it's Chuck. Six months of Gambit being the best hero in the game. W netties. We're on our blizzard arc.

Coach Mills (23:09.993)
Right. But like like and and the problem that you're talking about is also like has always been true about hit scan. Like like no one above Gr like in no one underneath Celestial has ever understood why Hella is so strong. Like really. I mean and or like and I'm not saying Hella's strong right now. I'm just saying like it from season like zero through four, Hella was insane. Gene Gray's insane now. No one understood those things because only the top one percent of players are even able to play that character at a at a reasonable enough level to counter like

Captain Coach (23:10.112)
Yeah, but

Lyte (23:21.774)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (23:37.717)
the random magic's an iron fists in your back line. Like I mean, straight up. Like that always happens.

Lyte (23:42.102)
Yeah. It's been a while since I've ranted about this. trust me, I remember watching a clip or something about you talking about like the movement creep in this game and I really, really liked how you put it, and this kind of ties in to what I'm about to say about Hella. But like fundamentally the hit scans in this game are poorly designed, more specifically Hella and Gene, because you have a ranged character that has a stun and an instant teleport or iframe, like get off me tool, right? And in like every other hero shooter, the ranged hit scan character

Because they have advantage, like that like like the the safety of being able to sit in the back of their team, zero risk, unlike a melee character, and do damage and get kills, they should be vulnerable when you close the gap. But it's not like that in rivals, up until Daredevil and Black Cat, and the addition of like like tank pool, dive tanks being better, Angela, like they've added characters that have kind of remedied this issue. But when the game first came out, Hella was uncontestable demon lord, because you can't play Star Lord into it, all the dive tanks were terrible.

Hawkeye still had his one shot. You had the Punisher Rocket like like super spam infinite ammo thing, and like all the ranged characters are dominated in every single range, so why would you not just pick the gun? It's it's kinda similar to like why Iron Fist is a terrible character compared to Punisher most of the time. Iron Fist has to take risk, he has to get into melee range, and when he uses his block, he has a burst of high sustained damage per second. Punisher has the same damage per second, but in the safety of his team.

Now, you can actually dive punisher, unlike Hella or Gene, but back in the day, like, these options didn't exist. Like, there was no DD, there was no Black Cat, there was none of this stuff, so it was like really, really, really frustrating and problematic to play against and Celestial player or like like a lot of people on Twitter don't understand that. That like in Overwatch, Sojourn doesn't have a stun. She has high mobility, she has a hit scan one shot, but she doesn't have a stun, thank God. Black Widow, super, super vulnerable character, but her when you got to close range, she doesn't have a fucking kick that can

hit you in three sixty and one shot you. Like Black Widow is obviously a terrible character, but her kick, everyone can agree, the kick is horribly designed, should never exist on a sniper ever.

Coach Mills (25:43.563)
Yeah, it's terrible. It's kind of interesting though what you brought up where like they have remedied that problem through new heroes. I think that will always be Netdy's philosophy. Like they've kind of shown us that they are not willing to reel back the power level of a character. Like I don't think we'll ever see Hella remove like lose her stun and get it get reworked or Gene lose her stun or a teleport.

Lyte (26:07.352)
But Hella's I guarantee you, bro, I guarantee you that Hella will be power crept soon. Like one thousand percent.

TrqstMe (26:09.933)
I I will say

Coach Mills (26:11.989)
But well no, I I agree with you, but b all I'm saying is that I'm I'm not saying that they should do this. I'm just saying that Netdy's just wants to do more like they want their care their next character to do the better thing, not take old characters and make them worse. They like like the next like i they instead of nerfing black cat as an example, the next support is gonna have some like I frame stun cancel, like and then and then and then there's gonna be another dive tank that has a cancel to that, like they they they keep one upping like

Lyte (26:22.903)
Yeah.

Lyte (26:40.078)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (26:40.597)
That's their that's their solution.

Captain Coach (26:40.833)
I wanna yeah, that's kind of where I wanted to actually go with it. Is there a world where this type of style of of balancing the game like works? because you know, trust me, you said the patch cycle comes so quickly. I always like to use this example, Super Smash Bros. Melee. Obviously, Nintendo just goes on to their next Smash Bros. game and melee's just been sitting there now for over twenty years. And even like almost twenty years into the game's lifespan was more about ten or fifteen, the meta still changes.

course I'm referring to a character known as Amsa who made the like Yoshi he won major tournaments with with Yoshi which at it at the time was considered like twenty first on the tier list out of twenty six characters or something. And then characters like Pikachu with axe and stuff there's there's people who find ways to win on heroes. D does rivals have that level of depth to where we could benefit from slower patch cycles or do you think the game's mostly figured out and do you think this quick balancing is there any way it works out in the future for the game?

TrqstMe (27:38.488)
I need to make myself a quick list about what I all want to talk about. I want to talk about the point before. What what was it again? It was like the movement creep. I'll write it down real quick. Movement creep and currents what was it? Current level of of metals or something. Patch cycles, yeah.

Captain Coach (27:47.413)
Mm-hmm.

Captain Coach (27:56.212)
patch cycles?

Coach Mills (27:57.607)
Or

Lyte (27:59.084)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (27:59.162)
Okay, so there's there's multiple things to be said here, and a lot of things are very important. First we will start with the patch cycle thing. The the thing with like a lot of titles, like say Counter Strike, Smash Bros Melee even, right? If we want to use that as an example, Valorant, all of these games, there isn't as much content to the characters, so the like people, like not even the pros, because you said it yourself, right? The pros figure it out the fastest.

Now there isn't as much time because there's new content added to the game, so there isn't as much time to figure out new meta's with what you have in the moment. Right? So even when Hella was hard meta for the pros, there wasn't as much time to figure out how to counter it because there was not options you had now that you have then, right? So it changes with that dynamic and with everything that comes out, metas will change more quickly than they do now, and especially for the lower rated players.

Because why would they worry about Hella now when it's literally unplayable when it everyone tells you it's unplayable? So when it goes back to what we had with slower movement on the map, no one will know how to play Hella. So you will invest that time again, right? You have to consistently invest time and the casuals have take longer time to understand stuff. So now you have more people that will not understand the game every single season and will not understand Metas every single season.

So when that is the thing, they will have wrong takes about the game that will maybe lead to wrong the results when it comes to actual balancing ideas around the thing. And they will suggest it to Netties. And it's the same with Neti's workers. All of them are are trash at the game. I have to say it. I I was there in China and most of them don't know how to play the game. And it's okay. It's not their fault, it's not their job.

Captain Coach (29:36.853)
Are you saying

Coach Mills (29:37.087)
So you you're you're s

Coach Mills (29:42.325)
So you Yeah.

Okay. So wait are so you're you're saying there's a trick you're saying there's a trickle down of information, right? From the from the pro play to the high rank to the mid rank to the low rank. And then and but but but because because that trickle down takes so long and there's new patch cycles, they're constantly behind on the knowledge, right? Is that what you're saying? Right.

Captain Coach (29:54.357)
Sounds like he's saying the player base is getting worse.

TrqstMe (29:57.328)
No, no no no.

Captain Coach (29:58.688)
No?

TrqstMe (30:02.349)
Okay. I'll I'll get to I'll I'll g no no, they're not falling behind. Because falling behind is connected to how fast you can catch up.

Captain Coach (30:03.467)
They they're falling further behind.

Okay.

TrqstMe (30:11.629)
With the resources that are there, unfortunately there's not enough. As I said, the casters are not good enough, as hard as it sounds, they don't know enough about the game, they're not deeply analytic about it. So the people that watch esport can't like k will not watch it to catch up because it doesn't lead to them being able to catch up because they can't relate and understand, right? So the analytical value from it is too low for them to understand. So and that is the case everywhere in the game. There is not enough knowledge in the game from people to share.

To get value from it. So that doesn't mean the player base gets worse. That just means it will always be a new season where they will stagnate with their current knowledge and they will only learn what the current season will teach them, even though there is way deeper analysis to the game, which is the actual cooldowns and what the actual value of the game is and what you play as of right now and why what is being played. Many people will not be able to share their thoughts on that because they are so focused on learning new stuff at the time, right? Because look at it from the perspective.

If you are casual, you have one hour a week to play or like let's say three.

Every single pro player tells you you need to be able to play every hero because people things can be banned out, and when you're banned out, you can't be handless, and you need to pick the right hero in the right situation, and the casual doesn't have time on those heroes, and he cannot invest that time because he doesn't have enough time. So you will be forced to learn only one hero, and then you will naturally fall behind. But there's also a way to catch up, but you can only do so at a time. So you will never be able to like fully break that.

barrier if you don't invest outside of knowledge, you know, if you you have to invest more into other knowledge. But that's hard. You know, it's it's not easy. Because it's not fun. That's the problem. It's not engaging for the casual. You know, it's it's not nice to hear as a casual you have to learn 13 heroes if you want to make it far on Marvel Rivals.

Coach Mills (31:54.995)
Right.

Coach Mills (32:05.503)
W would that would that are you arguing in favor of maybe slower patch cycles so that gap would be less, or do you just think this is a problem that was gonna happen no matter what they do?

Lyte (32:17.502)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (32:18.139)
It's hard to say. Yeah.

Captain Coach (32:18.433)
'Cause could I say something? To to me it doesn't really seem like the fast patch cycle benefits anyone other than Netties, really. It's kind of and maybe people who are just like want to come back to the game, ha, play for a couple of days. It doesn't really seem to benefit the people who actually care a lot about the game. or at least the game quality.

Coach Mills (32:28.479)
Well keeps

Coach Mills (32:34.473)
mean it's new stu constantly new stuff is probably I mean that's more for call it c casuals, right? Just want not constantly new stuff, new stuff. I mean pros like it too within reason. So like I I wanna ask this to light and trust me. I remember 'cause you know, I I I covered Overwatch and some some of my knowledge is a little jumbled, but basically like the core thing was that pro teams liked it when the meta didn't shift all that much because they got very used to a certain strategy, certain characters being good.

When the meta shifted a lot, it was a lot more work. They had to put a lot more scrim hours in, they had to practice new metas. And I know that that's a very different experience from Rivals, but how do y'all feel? Do y'all feel like it's actually more work in rivals to constantly adapt to new metas? Or do you think that it's that's just kinda par for the course? You know, like what do you think?

Lyte (33:22.476)
I think like what's

TrqstMe (33:22.607)
This is a dis wait, Light can say something about that if he wants.

Lyte (33:26.976)
Yeah. I was gonna say I think like

I actually prefer faster patch cycles. I think if this game like especially with how little their balance changes are. Like we had what, like ten patches in a row of blade getting one damage to a sword. Like the the changes that they make are just like so minuscule most of the time. It's very, very rare that we actually get a change that meaningfully impacts a character in the meta. Like Elsa's it took her like four patches to be re reigned in. Tank pull took like two or three, I think. Like his most recent changes actually mattered.

But a lot of the time they just tweak the dial by five percent and like like Sue. Like the last patch was Sue. Like Sue is not as strong now because people just pick rocket and one shot you through the alt. and like a variety of other reasons, but like five damage away from her pull or her push, like she could have not gotten changed at all and she would still be in the same exact state that she's in right now. So I think if they're going to do like basically nothing in their patches, having them as consistent as they are is very nice and it makes playing the game

Coach Mills (34:05.366)
Mm.

Coach Mills (34:16.267)
Yeah.

Lyte (34:29.146)
less stale. But maybe that's for me because I play this game like literally every day. So like I don't know, maybe my opinions different on that. Trust me I think that you play every day as well, so like but that's just how I feel. the the game feels stale towards the end of the season and I just like I like things to s to change.

Coach Mills (34:38.175)
W what what I actually might be now that I

Coach Mills (34:43.935)
Now now that I think about it, I might be thinking mostly about Valorant. Because I do remember how Valorant like certain teams were dominant under certain patches on Valorant, and then when the map when the meta changed, certain players and teams had to completely change up what they were good at. Because like people only got good at like two or three characters. As opposed to like in rivals, like you can't just be a two trick or a three trick. It's like impossible. Like the meta changes too much, the characters that get banned. I mean, there's no ban systems in in Valorant or anything like that.

Lyte (35:06.552)
Yeah, I

The final thing I wanted to to say about it was like the solution is if you want to have the best of both worlds, if you tell your players, like before Ignite, this is the patch that you'll be on. You'll be on the 7.5 patch, for example. This character won't be in the game, this will be the patch for it, and this will go on until X day. Now the problem with that is that playing ranked now becomes worthless for the pro players because it's a different game, basically. But like Yeah, there's there's always going to be issues with both ways.

Coach Mills (35:25.419)
Yeah, seriously.

Coach Mills (35:32.211)
Also kinda hard to connect for the casual player as well.

Lyte (35:38.146)
But I really, really would prefer the game to be constantly updating because that is also better for casual players as well. Like if we slow bro, if we slowed the patch cycle down to every two months or something, and then I pull up the patch notes, like we do every month, like it's Christmas morning, and I read through the changes, I see no nerfs to Gene Gray, no nerfs to Gambit, I see blades one damage on his sword

Coach Mills (35:55.935)
Right. Yeah.

Lyte (36:04.866)
And I know I have to wait two months before something else. It's just gonna make the game horrible and like no one will play.

Coach Mills (36:07.935)
Yeah. Well so

Captain Coach (36:10.453)
But maybe they would be better patches too, though.

TrqstMe (36:12.089)
I no, I will say something. The problem is the root issue. The root issue is that we they don't know how to make a better patch because they don't have enough experience with the game.

Like even the developers, right? I you just said it yourself, right? You want these changes, but the question is always what would that lead you in? 'Cause that would open up a meta that would maybe feel more toxic to play in than you were originally anticipated and thought of, right? 'Cause who wants to play into Iron Fist or like Mr. Fantastic the entire time? I'm telling you, there's not not a lot of people who want that gameplay loop. And that's the reality of thing. So the developers have such a hard time figuring it out.

Lyte (36:24.93)
Yeah, I agree.

Coach Mills (36:44.831)
Do do you do tr tr tr trust me

Lyte (36:44.974)
Ha ha ha

TrqstMe (36:54.301)
This is unfortunately a thing with Marvel Rivals, which is a a problem in pro play as well, as we come back to it. Because as you said, even in pro play, if you say we played this patch, right, we have to learn everything about this patch. 50% of the matches are decided in the band phase, and in what you pick at the time, because of the resources you have at your disposal, and you cannot spend time on figuring out how to enable your comp because it's easier to think, okay, I'm just counter-swapping the enemy comp at the time. Because this game is not a skill-expressive game.

Game to the point where you play the exact same mirror matchup as the enemy is. It's not like we play Brick Winston or GOATs vs. GOATs in Overwatch, you know, against goats vs. goats. They also play goats. We play the same thing. So now we talk about how do we enable it? Who gets the bubble? Who what do we have to use graph for? What do you have to use Trank for? Who gets the Zen try Zen orb? That is not a thing in pro play in rivals. Because it's easier to say we just avoid that step and we go one step further and say, okay, they play this com, we just counter swap and we back.

Coach Mills (37:30.855)
You're right.

Captain Coach (37:45.803)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (37:47.509)
Mm my

TrqstMe (37:54.161)
So they're just handless.

Coach Mills (37:56.251)
S so one thing I'll I'll say, trust me, because I think that H how do I how do I put this? I think that if the devs really cared about balancing it in a way that matters, they would just ask y'all. Like my my argument is that it's not that they don't know, it's that they don't care to balance around pro plays. Like that that's and I that I literally just think that if they actually wanted to balance it around pro play, they would literally just consult y'all.

They would just consult the teams. Like, there's tons of esports that have done that in the past. Cause like, I think at this point, everyone can agree that Gambit has been very overtuned, especially his ult, has been extremely powerful for way too long. They have to know that that's how every single player in high ELO and in pro play feels, right? They have to know that. They it's not that they're they're not they're not they it's not like they can't figure it out. They know. They just don't care. They're they're they're try that's that's my problem, is they just they

Lyte (38:51.8)
care. Yeah, bro, there's like there's legit like no like logic or reasoning behind the decisions that they make around the balance team, bro. Like it

TrqstMe (38:56.953)
it's

It's not really that it's it's more like a trust issue itself. Because the problem is you go to five pros and five pros will have a different opinion about what meta is in the game. The same way that you go to any dog shit coach in the game, like let's say like any MRC coach, you know, that wins like a console Australian MRC and praises himself for winning having tournament earnings for like one K on on his liquidpedia page, that dog shit coach will not

Coach Mills (39:27.755)
Why you sh why That sounds that sounds super personal bro. What the fuck? What's wrong with what's wrong with being Australian alright no I'm making what I That's crazy.

TrqstMe (39:29.145)
be able that does wait let me no no no i'm just like using i'm just exaggerating the point the the point

Captain Coach (39:29.858)
This sounds oddly personal.

TrqstMe (39:37.488)
The point is that coach will not be able to be able to tell you in a detailed way on what the meta is because he plays a different game. Because every single team plays a different game. Every team has their own niche ways of enabling stuff. I watched Hundred Thieves this this season lose to Iron Man. A character, everyone got it, every single pro got it. How did they lose? Because they didn't have the hero pool required to beat it. And then we go back to the 50-50 skill gap where it's a counter swap.

Captain Coach (39:38.091)
Do you?

Captain Coach (39:57.536)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (40:07.441)
season. Now they abused Hunter Fields weakness, which is the fact that they didn't play Tang Poo Dino at the time because it's the best to counter Iron Man. Why they didn't play it, no one knows. They know now, I guarantee you, if they boot up the game, that will not happen again. Okay, so the meta keeps on developing. What was good one week ago will not be good in the next week. And it's the same for the casuals and unfortunately it's also the same for the patch notes for the Chinese. And it's the same for every pro. So if you ask the pro now the pro will say something completely different

Coach Mills (40:28.618)
So

TrqstMe (40:37.361)
in a week. So the Chinese or like the developers in this case cannot trust the people as well. That is like the problem. And they also can't trust their own opinion.

Coach Mills (40:43.945)
So what would

Lyte (40:45.89)
I have a question. I have a question for you, trust me. Do you not think that there are certain characters that we can say pretty accurately, like Gambit, where it's like there's pretty much damn near universal agreement that this character is overtune? I mean that there's some characters like that.

Coach Mills (40:47.112)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (40:58.127)
What makes him overtuned? Because the the the root issue is always for me, we have to take everything. I am a I am one of the most analytic persons.

If you know if you know my my career path, you know, you know I'm I'm a coach style player. You know, I'm I'm a crimson of the the scene, right? I made sure I I had VOD reviews every day with my team. We go analytic deep into the gameplay. We make sure that we we are on the same day, we are on the patch, we we make sure we work together every single day, we break down every hero cooldowns to figure out strategies. If you take away Gambit's resources, okay, what does he have? 'Cause he actually has two hundred fifty HP, which a lot of supports don't.

So that makes him quite weak against Dive. That's one weakness you can abuse abuse. What would he what would you nerf to make him use this? Because it's a hero that can very easily be from the best hero to the complete worst hero in the game.

Lyte (41:51.704)
So what I would say is if a character like he's kinda like Dino, in that if Gambit's in the game, it completely changes the game on like what's being played and how you play against it. And there are very few heroes that are in the game that are actually like that. So Gambit, Dino, Prime Torch is a great example as well of like these characters mere existence completely changes the game entirely. Now we could have a discussion on exactly and specifically like what type of numbers

or things that you could dial and tweak. But I think I agree with you that player perception does change week to week about what the meta is. However, I do think there are like outlining examples that we can point to and say, maybe not objectively, but as close to objectively as that we can get to, this character is overtuned and should be reined in.

TrqstMe (42:40.579)
All all of us play every single day. Every single day. All of us here in this call. And if I ask each of you to define what actually makes Gambit broken, you all will have a different answer. Even if we're pros light. We will both have a different answer of what makes him strong and how he's counterable. Because he does have weaknesses. You know. But the question is what would you tweak in that sense? Because you didn't give me proper answer, right?

Lyte (42:43.502)
Mm-hmm.

Lyte (43:00.952)
Yeah, he does.

Coach Mills (43:06.067)
I mean any anything is better than en nothing though, right? Isn't isn't anything better than nothing? Like they're they're missing the entire exam. They're not even getting the wrong answer on the exam. They're just missing it entirely.

Lyte (43:07.286)
Yeah, I mean I could I could answer your g yeah, I could answer your question directly. Yeah.

Lyte (43:15.106)
Yeah, like even even if, trust me, even if, like let's say, like like to answer your question directly, so I personally think Gambit's issue is his ult. Now someone could argue it's his cards, it's his mobility, it's his damage boosts, like whatever it may be, like his dueling potential. Even if it doesn't matter which one of us is right or wrong on what the actual issue with Gambit is, objectively speaking, nerf something, like Mills was saying, 'cause it's better than nothing, and rein the character in

TrqstMe (43:16.219)
Yeah, but the

Lyte (43:41.506)
Because fundamentally more than anything that matters most is the character needs to be picked less or have less of an impact on the game. And that's what we want. It brings up more variety, more draft, more characters that can be played, and that's the issue.

TrqstMe (43:55.271)
But

That is what I would argue, 'cause y what you just said is exactly the direction they are taking. They might not show it directly, but they are taking that direction based on what everyone feels. And right now the casual player base doesn't feel that's an issue because it's consistent being banned in ranked, so they don't even experience the character as very strong because they rarely play against it as well. So when they actually play against it, they don't really wanna like think about the weaknesses, they don't wanna think about the strengths, they don't wanna develop that

20-year-old meta that we have in melee, right? Because there's no no reason to do that, you know, because you can just avoid it. You know, you can just avoid the step of thinking about it. And everyone will think differently. So the root issue will still remain the same. You just gutted a hero, just so other heroes can be strong, but you don't make the game fundamentally feel better. You just make it feel different once more, and then we just add a new hero that just outperforms the current hero.

Captain Coach (44:43.125)
Yeah. I

Coach Mills (44:48.612)
Yeah. I mean the game will never feel fundamentally better in my opinion. It be with the new heroes and the bands and everything that the game is, like there is no achieving perfect balance in this game. It's just not possible. It's like you're chasing it's like you're chasing the the fucking carrot on a stick that will constantly move and change and go further and further. Like we reached a state of perfect balance before Dino came out.

Lyte (45:03.064)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (45:13.023)
And then Dino ruins everything. Or before Black Hat came out, and then Black Hat ruins everything. Like no matter what, like the we'll never reach that state. But here, real quick, I want to ask you both a question. Light and trust me, this has to do with this. So in Valorant, they have something called it's it's it's the playtest program. not playtest program. They have they have a playtest team. So they made a team with former Counter-Strike pros when the game first came out. Former Counter-Strike pros, coaches, analysts, but it's mainly with like really high rank good players.

And it it was you know, it was it was enough to run constant scrims basically. And they their entire job internally is just to grind games, like nonstop, grind new changes, grind games, they get hands on patches before people do, like far before people do. They try to break it, they try to find it. Do you think that rivals would benefit from something like that? Or would they still like miss the things that pros eventually figure out? What do you think?

TrqstMe (46:07.771)
I mean it goes back to the same issue 'cause right now my approach to nerfing Gambit would be a complete different one than lights.

So now you it's a question about who you actually trust in the scene, right? Because I wouldn't go and nerf Gambit in that sense. I would find the I would completely restructure the game as a whole. S to because that would lead into nerfing Gambit in the way that he is right now. So I have a completely fundamentally different idea than other pros, you know, about the game. So that leads into having that scene as a pro that will structure your game. Now you have to

trust like everyone with different opinion anyway. Like everyone will always have different opinion. There's no way around it.

Coach Mills (46:50.365)
Right, right. But but but it's but you can definitely craft better opinions than what they're already coming to, right? Like we can like they might not be your opinion, but it's definitely better than the opinions they're already achieving, right?

Lyte (46:51.286)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (47:02.639)
That's a valid that's a valid argument, but it's also valid to say that the casuals don't care about that. Right? Because they just wanna have fun. They just play once a week. You know, they they they don't mind because we have bands so you can just avoid issues, right? So I don't know I don't really know what's the best business move for the game. What feels the best for me is what I can say, yeah. What I that's that's what I can share, right? The same way the casuals will will say, Dino feels actually good if you play it like only once in a week. You know, it will f it feels good.

Coach Mills (47:15.423)
Right.

Coach Mills (47:31.027)
'Cause I just think that there is a way that everyone is reasonably happy. Like it like there isn't a perfect state of the game, but there is a way, you know, that everyone can kind of get what they want without completely ruining pro play, without completely ignoring the casual experience. Like we can try to do both. What what do you think, Light? Is that is that something that's possible?

TrqstMe (47:35.653)
Mm.

Lyte (47:52.62)
I don't think so. I don't think you can have that type of test with how fast the patches come out. Yeah, with how fast the heroes come out. Like we would just have no time to like practice for our own matches and officials and like even play ranked ourselves if we also have to beta test all these different things before it comes out. Like there's just not a big enough gap. but to to kinda like address the other stuff from before 'cause I did wanna have some closing thoughts on it. like there's obviously like an objective way or sorry, there's an objective answer to

what a character's powers and weaknesses are and like how you should go about adjusting them for the overall health of the game and how we as like individuals and like our ideas, like how accurate we are with that and our perception of that is to try to get as close to it as possible. and there's gonna be bumps along the road, there's gonna be differences of opinion. But I think fundamentally the only thing that like truly actually matters, especially if we're talking about for majority of the player base, is seeing variety and diversity. At least in my mind, that is the the most fundamental

and foundational route that we can take to make the game feel fresh and engaging to play, not just for the casuals but for the pros as well. Like I don't want to play one character or two characters for six months. Right? Like I want to expand my hero pool, play other things, have different types of drafts and strategies, have different identities for every single team. But as it is right now, even though Gambit does have weaknesses and there are things that you can do to play against Gambit,

every single team damn near is first band gambit. And it's been like that for six months. And there has been some deviation, like we have seen some Dino first bands, and we have seen strategies where people have let Gambit through in the past and won. However, the predominant strategy, Gambit First Band. Now, if trust me's idea of restructuring the entire game, thus making Gambit weaker, is more accurate, more objective than mine, that's fine. I'm okay with being wrong one hundred percent. Or if my idea of just nerving the ults is fine.

That's great too. Like it doesn't matter in my mind. The end goal should be let's see less gambit and more of other characters.

Coach Mills (49:54.741)
Did you're gone.

Captain Coach (49:54.857)
Tr trust me, I want to hear what you have to say about like your idea for the game. We'll definitely get to that. But to me, I I feel like we're kind of just overcomplicating it a little bit. I mean, at the end of the day, we are playing a game. There are some like core pillars that we can agree on when it comes to balancing a game. You I mean, we've already said one, like more ex more skill expression is better than less. More player choice, I think, is a universally objectively like well-agreed upon thing, is going to make a game more fun. When I have more options.

More things I can do as long as it doesn't like take away from someone else's fun. That would be another thing. Counterplay, right? So when you look at something like a Gambit alt, you say some people would disagree on on the different changes you'd make to it. To me, you just kind of like for balancing, go back to those core things. Okay, so like how do you give Gambit players more choice and like more options, more things they they can do? Maybe you can aim your alt and put it on one person, the effect is even stronger or something, right? Like, but the

Just just I probably not a good idea, but like the idea of Gambit on paper, I I actually really like him as a hero. Like I think what he represents is fine. I think maybe the where the disconnect lies is is how how tuned he is for whatever rank. But I just kinda wanted to get that because when when you when you talk about balance, there has to be some kind of like rule to it all, like some overarching philosophy. And if you don't have that, which I think we're arguing kind of the devs don't, then then the game is just going to look what it is like what it is now, where it's all about.

Counter swapping all the time and not actually like being good at something. would you guys agree with that or or because to me it's

TrqstMe (51:29.211)
stated that fifty percent of the games are won in draft, so in pro play.

Captain Coach (51:32.521)
Okay. Yeah, so what would a season look like with no swapping then? Would that would that what would that look like? Would that be would that expose certain heroes, certain strategies that y you know, like with would a season with no swapping, if you really think about it, win rates start to matter at that point, right? And then it it's more about but but that's really not what the game is.

Lyte (51:54.018)
think if you had a game where there was no swapping, you would just see a lot of characters who are strong and applicable in a lot of situations. Like you would see a lot of probably a lot of gene, a lot of tank pool, a lot of Daredevil. I think you would see like yeah cap as well. I think you would see less black cat actually because you don't want to be playing black cat in the Daredevil, especially if he has resources like you can. But there's this kind of interesting dynamic between the two where like Black Cat doesn't really interact with Dino. Dino gives Dar Daredevil cancer.

Coach Mills (52:00.395)
Right.

Gene.

TrqstMe (52:06.659)
Cap America.

Lyte (52:23.49)
But Daredevil gives black cat cancer, so it's like but if you're in a game where you can't swap and you know the enemy team isn't gonna be on dyno, you're gonna be on D D like most of the time.

Coach Mills (52:27.851)
Yeah What if they just mind game the fuck out of you and walk out as thing? Then like they're stuck on thing, but you can't you can't like like No but but if but if but if they walk out of spawn on things that you counter they cannot swap. You see what I'm saying? Like you're literally coin flipping the whole game. Right.

Captain Coach (52:34.421)
Yeah. It'd be interesting.

Lyte (52:34.702)
Well there would be yeah. But you would never you would never play thing because thing is too too like

TrqstMe (52:38.853)
Thing is

TrqstMe (52:45.125)
Yeah, but the thing is that would be part of the skill ceiling. Like, the skill ceiling, like, even like we can say 50% is one in draft. Being able to draft and being able to like expose the enemy's weaknesses and abusing that to your advantage, that is part of the skill ceiling in pro play. You know? So.

Captain Coach (52:45.419)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (53:03.637)
Right. But what but then that I that I think is where what Netties is trying to do, like or at least if I if I try to give them any credit at all, it's that regardless of the state of the game, the band system gives y'all some amount of skill expression and agency over other teams. Like top teams that have good, they have they're flexible, they know how to play and adapt. Like they can adapt to whatever meta is in front of them and they know how to

Lyte (53:03.746)
Yeah, it is. That's a good point.

Captain Coach (53:04.097)
Why would it

TrqstMe (53:07.331)
And the same thing would happen if you

Coach Mills (53:29.993)
research and like understand enemy teams like strengths and they know how to run the band phase like it doesn't really matter what the meta is the top teams are still gonna be consistently strong because of they can do all those things right they know how to do all those things and so like that's the one way that like I mean I'm just thinking of like other other pro metas that never had a band system like that like like early Overwatch like Valorant like there's no band system where you can kind of mind games like win the game early like you're talking about.

Captain Coach (53:50.401)
Real quick.

Lyte (53:50.744)
Well think about think about like league. Yeah.

Captain Coach (53:57.003)
Mills, I gotta interrupt you. I gotta interrupt you. So like if you if you had no swaps, it you'd have a a a hero select phase as well, not just a band phase. And that that's part of the strategy as well. I I I was thinking like Legal Legend. Exactly.

Coach Mills (53:59.626)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go it.

Coach Mills (54:07.135)
Well well yeah, yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah I like yeah. I I mean I yeah.

TrqstMe (54:07.577)
Part of the skill ceiling. It would be part of the skill. I mean in League of Legends, they also they also think okay, they will probably roll out on this. We either go full in risk and counter swap that p comp or we go something that's generally like really good that we know okay, now it's a fifty-fifty matchup or a sixty-forty matchup, and we can actually actually win with skill. Like that's valid.

Lyte (54:10.243)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (54:27.835)
I I personally well I I personally believe that hero shooters like swapping and like hero shooters I think go hand like hand in hand. Like I don't think you want to remove that. Now we can talk about the cost of swapping. I like I think that's an interesting conversation about there is no cost in swapping right now.

Captain Coach (54:27.913)
Yeah. I think it'd be way more interesting, personally.

Lyte (54:37.678)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (54:40.833)
I see I I I disagree. I think with the game this balanced, like you're just always gonna swap to the best like three or four comps. It's what it seems like, at least from a viewing like a casual viewer.

Coach Mills (54:49.547)
Yeah, well I mean you could if if if you made if you made ultimates take much longer to charge, which is a change that I'm in favor of, like forty percent increase from here, and then you actually just removed people's ults if they swapped. Like you could make it expensive to swap. Like you if you want to reduce swapping, 'cause th then then it's like you've built towards this thing that you want to use. Like it's justifiable to try to make it work, even if even if it's suboptimal.

Captain Coach (55:05.951)
I don't hate that. I don't hate that.

Coach Mills (55:16.659)
Like, you know, like the enemy team swaps, they're getting rolled, they're losing. So they swap to something that counters you, but you have an ult and they're at zero. You know, stuff like that. I think that's more interesting to me. But right now it just doesn't matter. You go down to thirty percent, you build up ultimate in one fight, like it just doesn't matter. Like there's no cost. Just swap to the best thing.

Lyte (55:30.53)
Yeah, there's like a there's a very fine line between like the the counter swapping versus like the like you want to have a situation where you can play a lot of characters in a lot of situations. You don't want the game to be full rock, paper, sc scissors, like it's five E five Rolock Overwatch. But also you want to be able to pick characters in a variety of situations because it like rewards you for committing your time to your character and getting good at it, like

No one who plays Black Panther enjoys that they could pick the thing and then you're instantly worthless. Like that type of like rock, paper, scissors gameplay should not be in the game. Like there should always be an option for the player. Now it should be harder, for sure. There are characters that you should be able to pick that make the other teams harder or the other person that's like giving your team AIDS harder. But it should never be, I pick this character and I could be four divisions worse than you and you're gonna get less value. Like, period. So I think they should try to approach it with that of like like limiting those margins of

Captain Coach (56:23.072)
Yeah.

Lyte (56:27.032)
Counter swap, like you just pick the right character in the situation, you instantly win the game because it's so easy to play against the characters that they're doing. Now what that looks like I have no idea, but I think aiming for that should be should be a goal.

Coach Mills (56:35.209)
Yeah, like I yeah. Well i i if if we kind of align with what you're talking about, like if we kinda go with what you're talking about, what we talked about, which is like ex increasing the skill expression of a character, like what if instead of like a zone of no mobility on thing, it was something you actually had a time, which is gonna be weaker, of course, but it was like a it was like a time based ability, and then you just gave him some other compensary Right. Well, like it like like Well, no no no, you slam the ground and it stops their their movement abilities for that

Lyte (56:54.998)
Like it had a deploy time? Like you slam the ground and it takes a second to come up?

Coach Mills (57:03.721)
Like half second or that second. Like it's not like a persistent field that if the BP just flies into, they just stop being able to function. So it's not like it's not just a denial of abilities. So like it's a much weaker ability than it is right now, but then you compensate by giving him, I don't know, like a fucking rocky can throw, skill shot type, whatever. Like the idea is that you're taking away the free value and you're adding in more earned value.

Lyte (57:24.716)
I mean that's good, but it goes in the opposite direction of homogenizing every character like they're doing with Jean Hella and making every character do everything so there's no like diversity. Yeah, they should characters should have unique identities and roles in the game, but it's it's so hard and there's a fine line because you can't go one or the either way. You can't have a character you can't have every character do everything, and you can't have I pick this hero, therefore your hero worthless. So there are certain heroes like the thing that they should address where he is completely

Coach Mills (57:32.169)
Well, we we both agree that they should not be doing that. Like they should be

Coach Mills (57:49.353)
Right.

Well that yeah, he definitely miss.

Lyte (57:53.73)
Dog piss worthless into any gun, or kinda like Dino actually. Dino and the Dino like power crep thing, bro, like in all honesty, like their functions in the game. Like, tone down Dino's ability to do that and give him the flexibility to deal with range poke damage. Whereas, like Like Gene does everything all the time, twenty four seven, no weakness. Like she can die to dive, because she's two fifty, thank God. But on release, two seventy five, best melee hero in the game.

Captain Coach (57:59.945)
yeah.

Lyte (58:21.26)
Self healing passive so she can hold off angles, like on and on and on and on and on, right? So it's like

Captain Coach (58:26.367)
So what worries me is that I I almost feel like they they're actually trying to do this but still just failing. Cause like with the thing you mentioned, they gave him one of his big problems was back in season three during Flyer meta, he couldn't deal with flyers, so they gave him right, he just he would just eat shit. So they gave him a dash towards opponents now and now he's and they t right.

Lyte (58:40.024)
Can do anything. Yeah. Yeah.

Lyte (58:46.658)
And then a ground with the punch.

Captain Coach (58:49.129)
Right. And then they took away like what is like kind of identity is what I personally liked about him, which was his like real he was really tanky and he could kind of just hold his own and I I feel like they just don't know what they're doing, really. And and they're just kind of throwing darts at a wall and s and seeing what sticks. But I I do agree. I I I think there needs to be more of like a middle ground when it comes to balancing. and yeah, like I really like Trust Me said where it's like the developers kinda they

Like it makes more sense if you really think about it. Like they probably are just tr struggling to keep up just as much as the players are.

TrqstMe (59:19.223)
It's the main and this is what I think is the most important thing because you you all of you guys here have once again said different things, right? The reason why thing is bad is also a complete complicated thing that many people need to spend hours to actually think about because that he is good in some situations and you could maybe even play him in some archetypes that would enable him. But what it comes down to is the opportunity to learn.

The developers have also a hard opportunity to learn. Because the pros have a hard time to learn because so much new content is being released. So much thing changes. You know, you want variety. In ranked, everything can be different. Every single ranked game you play, you're going to be on different heroes, you're going to be on different comp. So you have to restructure your entire thinking. Everything relates to the basics. You know, many people don't have time to learn the basics because there's no opportunity to learn. So the casuals don't even get

All of that. And so do doesn't the pros because and so doesn't the developers as well. How do they ever get an opportunity to learn if all they're told okay, penny is sixty percent win rate in PLET, you know, so that is our opportunity to learn. What do we value, what do we not value? And then it's hard. It is hard, you know, it is hard to find a good balance because you said it yourself. How do you make things better? If you have to spend five hours on thinking about it and then you would still come up to a different conclusion than me.

So it's hard. It's not easy to find a good patch. Like I I I feel like a lot of the people are very harsh on the developers. Even if you make Gambit worse, you know, you're not going to fix the root issue of the game, which is the fact that none of the players have the opportunity to learn archetypes in the game because they're so busy learning new heroes that come out.

Captain Coach (01:01:09.513)
So what you're saying is Black Panther's claws need a one shot. Is that what you're

Coach Mills (01:01:14.251)
Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Well, okay, so so I I guess I guess going to you trust me 'cause I think I I think I I agree with you. Like straight up I do agree with you. It's it is hard and like there is a certain amount of like like understanding we need to have, but at the same time like

TrqstMe (01:01:14.363)
How did I how did that lead this is this is what the casual player would say. Now i if you scroll through your comment section, they would say Well he didn't say anything. Yeah of like like okay.

Lyte (01:01:16.236)
Let's let's let's have a

Lyte (01:01:29.272)
No, but I'm down for a Panther meta. I'm actually down.

Captain Coach (01:01:29.857)
No, I get what you're saying.

Coach Mills (01:01:43.264)
We can't just be chilling and cool with nothing changing and nothing happening. So what would you say, like w what actionable changes would you want? Like if you were in charge, like what would you do? If you like let's say tomorrow the devs came to you, not anyone else, but you specifically, and they said, Okay, five changes or three changes. What what do you want? What do you want to what do you want to do? What you want to change? Like yeah, no, I'm just kidding. no no no no

Captain Coach (01:02:04.575)
He wants to fire a couple of people, I think. I thought you asked light. my bad. My bad. All right.

TrqstMe (01:02:07.095)
It's not that I want to fire I would actually hire more people. I would actually

Lyte (01:02:12.494)
What?

Coach Mills (01:02:13.713)
Ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (01:02:14.531)
I would actually hire more people and I would hire people that would feed and train AI based on interactions of the game and the skill level of of the game and the character the or like the how there's like a archetypes in the game, you know, like explosivity of a hero, sustainability, like all of that can be calculated in numbers, and then you would train in a AI with it that would give you a result on what the entire player base would want. I know it sounds I know it sounds stupid, but like you know how chess bots are smarter.

Coach Mills (01:02:38.571)
So you're you're saying AI is better than depths? That's no, no.

Captain Coach (01:02:39.68)
Wow.

TrqstMe (01:02:44.455)
Than any human. If you can develop that for patch notes, that would be theoretically the best approach to actually getting the best possible patch. But

Since we are humans and we are bound to make arrows, there's also gotta be a compensation for that in the in the normal players' mind. I do think the band system already gives you quite the variety that other games wouldn't have. I don't think in today's timeline, because everyone is so much dopamine bound, like every player, I'm me included, you know, I after I play my game, you know, I go to the toilet. Sometimes I open the I open the TikTok, I open the YouTube, I see Lucky Zeal flaming on any random kid, you know, we're on playing Spider Man.

Coach Mills (01:03:21.035)
Right.

TrqstMe (01:03:23.953)
He's neither good looking nor is he good at the game. So it's it's kinda interesting. It's a kinda kinda it's kind of an interesting YouTube shot, okay? My brain is also rooted to dopamine.

Coach Mills (01:03:27.463)
Wha bro wait, what the fu

Captain Coach (01:03:28.487)
Jesus Christ

Lyte (01:03:30.798)
Ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (01:03:35.194)
The reason what I'm saying is you have three bands, okay? And it means it leads to a lot of variety that will fuel that dopamine, but once again it doesn't give you opportunity to learn the game to the fullest. I think if we would get more opportunities to learn the game to the fullest and generally have more people coming to the game, then we would have more people interested in learning the game. And then it would be a a better like base to the game. So I feel like getting a non-ban ranked mode.

Lyte (01:03:45.974)
TrqstMe (01:04:05.217)
Might not be bad, but then again you have the problem of too little player base, so you're in infinite Q loop, right? Which is also not a possibility. Same way you can't you can't and put in two to two, right? Rowlock, that is not possible. You would have infinite Q.

Coach Mills (01:04:18.527)
Right. Right.

Captain Coach (01:04:19.339)
So what specific changes like so w you you wouldn't have any like specific changes to the actual game? It's okay.

TrqstMe (01:04:23.438)
I would have.

I I would I I there's but it goes a very very deep list. Like it it would be like a a five hour discussion. If you guys are down to hear my entire idea, I think one thing that has been consistently been a huge problem is the power creep to movement cooldowns. Movement cooldowns are a huge problem because they leave no room for margin of error. Like if you play Hella and you're taking a good time window flank, that flank opportunity will become bad if you're not playing

Captain Coach (01:04:30.603)
We got time, man. We got time. Okay.

TrqstMe (01:04:54.749)
A proper window with the rest of your team. And because the movement cooldown makes the tempo of the and the momentum of the fight shift very quickly, you can quickly be in a good position, but the next moment because something happens on the map that is not in your control will put you in a bad position. So that automatically tells your team going to that position was bad, even though it was originally a good play, given if that wasn't a thing with the movement cooldowns in the situation. So there is no opportunity to learn because the movement cooldowns are such a big problem.

Can go so fast across the map. Every role has that now. That is also the reason why some of the heroes, like no one thinks about actual archetypes of the game, everything in the game is connected to the backline. What you play as supports defines your entire team composition. Nothing else matters in that extent, which is also why everyone thinks supports are so unbelievably broken. Because supports do wire your entire game plan, because nothing else is based on like you actually go.

on a 1v1 like an overwatch, you get a good trade, but the moment the enemy bypasses that trade by just like using his movement coolant to get to a different location to avoid having to actually win the duel, that is a problem. Because now you have that archetype of avoiding issues rather than facing them and like finding new solutions, new routes to play the game, which kinda connects to the only thing that will work, which is your supports giving you uptime.

Because the supports that supply you, if your supports are are uptiming you and they have forward momentum, you are winning the game. So if you pressure the enemy supports, you're automatically winning. Whereas in Overwatch, going for the supports first might open a window where you will get 1v1 traded with the enemy tracer in a positive or negative way. Which allows more of a counterplay to that playstyle. Whereas on Didi, why would you ever fight the enemy DD if going for the support is more valuable? There's no reason to fight the enemy DD.

Because going diving the enemy support is better. And it's only better if you have the right resources for it. Because the moment you go, Rocket Jeff or Lunar Jeff or Lunar Rocket that have infinite supply resources on the map, you know, because some some heroes don't, Invisible Woman is bound to to some limitations when it comes to the range. So as soon as you have to like if you can bypass that limit range of like healing someone across the map and like being less diveable because of that reason, because you have to grab more ground, more move.

TrqstMe (01:07:24.253)
Movement around the map. Now you can supply your diver while they can, because they have an invisible woman who can't do it the same way. So that is also like a problem. Like the people don't understand these archetypes. So we need to like break that down. We need to change the entire way the archetypes work. We need to remove the or reduce the movement coulons, give more margin of error, and that would be the approach I would take. But it's it's very deep and it's it's way deeper than that, and I can't explain it because I also have a large language barrier here that that is playing against me right now.

Coach Mills (01:07:50.014)
I I no I I I guess the one thing so like I I understand what you're saying a lot about teaching people these core concepts, but so like what I basically do all day every day is just teach people that are in like plat and diamond, like very f simple fundamental things that they don't understand. Like using cover is something that like a an average diamond player doesn't understand how to use. Like not consistently. Like

We're talking about understanding archetypes. They don't even understand matchups. They don't even understand alt advantage, alt economy, numbers advantage. Like it's too like and the idea that you can just tell people and they'll catch up, like they won't understand that very easily. Because they're like I it's hard to even teach them very basic things. Like I I like do you I I don't know. Like do you understand what I'm

TrqstMe (01:08:35.715)
It it goes back to the the issue that is time because something new will come out that will take away that opportunity to learn what you previously wanted to learn.

Lyte (01:08:37.102)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:08:47.033)
That is it. So now the the player will never be able to learn. As you said, you can teach them cover. The reality right now is taking cover is actually bad. There is no instance where taking cover is good as of right now, besides if you're hiding for a play, and that is like the only instance, and that cannot be taught like from from one day to another because that opportunity will be taken away with the next patch. Because then cover might be taken good, you know, it might be good. So that is the fundamental issue with the game that there's no opportunity.

to learn for the casuals and for the for the pros and for the developers. All three have that issue. There is no thing to learn because we have the bands, because we can avoid steps in the map, because we have other things that we can counter swap to, you know, to avoid issues that we have face. So that is all part of it.

Coach Mills (01:09:38.966)
Do you think that ba rank ranked bands is actually bad for the game? I actually I talked with one of my friends named Ralph. He hated, absolutely hated bands from a design perspective. Because he said that they do a lot of the things that you're talking about. They allow people to bypass the meta. They allow people to ignore things that they should learn. People never actually engage in the meta because like most of the time they just ban away the things they don't want to play against. Like people don't learn how to counter counter swap, counterplay, outplay. Like they don't learn those things. So what do you think? Do you think that

Like it's a band-aid fix or like what's your opinion on it?

TrqstMe (01:10:10.981)
This is the thing, right? This goes back to the entire discussion about what it leads into from a business perspective.

Light said he wants more variety. So he would naturally think bands that lead into more variety are actually healthy for the game. Well, some people now think okay, bands actually take away that opportunity to learn, which will in long term harm the game because people will not like really care about the game in that sense and not develop that thinking and will like learn and associate things differently, even though they they are completely different. So for some people that might work and for some people that doesn't work. And now you have the problem.

TrqstMe (01:10:52.375)
You can go any direction, the same way you can take pro play into any direction. And you can have the developers either cater towards that or cater towards that. What you would want is the game to be more popular in general. And if the entire population is TikTok brained, then you add a TikTok to the game that will make the game popular. You know what I mean? That that would be the solution to get the game more popular. Is it the solution you want to take? That's not up to us eventually. It is in a little bit, but not fully. Because we're customers as well, they will cater towards us.

Coach Mills (01:11:10.578)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:11:22.381)
Right? But not fully. So it kinda like there is no like every answer can be right. That is that is something I learned as a pro, you know, because we also get in arguments, right? The amount of time I argue, okay, I have this on the map, or I need you guys to play here, I want this to happen on the map and all of that, every opinion will always be different and sometimes opinion can be right. Every opinion can be right as well at the same time, and this is one of them in my opinion.

Like you can have a game either with bands or without bands. And either game will feel good for the group that will like it.

TrqstMe (01:12:00.185)
And then again, if you remove the bands now for one season, which will probably be to the liking of a lot of people, might not be to the liking of other people. You know? So it's it's hard to say. There's no the every answer is right, to be honest. And it's more like a preference kind of thing. And what would Kate bring in the most people.

Captain Coach (01:12:17.811)
Light about the about the the margin of error he was talking about. I mean, you actually haven't gone over your top three things that you changed to the game. I'm cause you've probably already said them on this podcast, but we we can ask you that too, like see if it's like what's changed. But but with the margin of error of like diving where you you jump in, they use like a major movement cooldown, then you know, now all of a sudden you're exposed and you you don't know whether to commit or know, is is like the

Would you say like the heel spam, the neutral heel spam is is a like a big perpetrator in that? 'Cause you you said something that was interesting to me, trust me that like taking cover, there's like no point in doing that. Is that mostly just because like it's all about uptime and just playing main choke in the pro scene? Like I'm sure a lot of people watching are probably curious as well. so I I'm kinda asking both a question right now. But I just kinda wanted to open up to you light, and then trust me, after that, get your thoughts on what I said about that.

Lyte (01:13:04.35)
Okay.

Lyte (01:13:13.752)
I'm sorry, I'm not I'm not full I'm not sure I fully understand the question. You're asking me how I feel about healing in the game?

Captain Coach (01:13:19.667)
No, sorry. Your your t well, we we we never got your top three like changes you'd make to the actual game itself, like if you were in control. and then w when he was talking about margin of error, I think he was referring to like the mobility creep and like how it gets punished if you kinda like commit and then now you're at a position in like a really I mean you play dive, so you probably know better than anyone, right? Like I mean, I guess it's all like limits at the end of the day. But like the windows where you're able to actually go for things, I think, is

Lyte (01:13:25.496)
Yeah. Okay.

Lyte (01:13:32.803)
Yeah.

Lyte (01:13:43.928)
Yeah, I would say

Lyte (01:13:48.354)
Yeah. I would say like the number one thing I'd want them to fix in this game is to like lower the difference in power in the DPS. I think there's like five to ten DPS that are playable, five that are super broken strong, and then the rest are just completely dog pissed worthless trash. I would like to see that brought closer together because in the tank roll I think the tank roll is like relatively balanced compared to DPS. And the support role is even more balanced. Like I think every single support

Coach Mills (01:14:09.877)
Sec just a second.

Lyte (01:14:16.662)
Is playable in a variety situations and we've seen every support in Ignite, like all of them. But you will never see, like you should never see Iron Man, but like we'll never see Blade, we'll never see you should never see Black Widow at all either. Fucking Zatex, but like you guys know I don't have to list off all the the terrible characters, so like I would really, really like to see more terrible characters brought up, more specifically in DPS, because that's where the biggest discrepancy is. That's my number one. Number two is that they this is like outside of Pro Play, but fix fix the matchmaking.

I don't care if EOMM is real or not, it feels real, and that's what matters. Everyone has a similar shared experience of the matchmaker feeling terrible. Like it just feels horrible. I hate I hate playing ranked. I do it every day because I'm passionate. I want to get better. And I play the game because I have to, I gotta put my my hours in. But man is it miserable. Like it is just shit. I don't like it. And then I guess for my third, I'll relate this back to what we said like at the very, very start of the conversation. about like

How can we make this game more watchable for esports? And I would really, really like to see them invest more into Twitch drops and like bigger viewer incentives to actually watch the game. And I know Flats has been talking about this for a very long time, and he's super, super right about this. Like, if anyone is gonna tell Neties about how to bring more viewership into their game, they should listen to this guy. Bringing more drops will bring more people in. Just having a recolor of a base skin and like a spray, no one gives a shit about, like at all. Or having better esports skins, like Overwatch.

In twenty eighteen with the Overwatch League skins, it completely changed the character's aesthetic relative to what the team is. In this game, we get it for one character and it's a jersey that doesn't match their original theme. It's horrible. No one's gonna buy that. Like, let me get a fully like like purple and black Spider Man skin for Nightmare. Let trust me get like a Captain America yellow fucking black, white, whatever Navi's all of their colors are. Let them get that as Captain America or as Tankbull or as Venom or as any of the any of his other characters, like

Coach Mills (01:15:55.199)
Ha ha ha.

Lyte (01:16:12.536)
That would immediately bring more people into giving the teams more money, and more people would watch if there was cooler, more unique skins. Like could you imagine if there was a twitch drop skin that was like change the effects, change the aesthetic of the character, gave them different voice lines or something. Like you could do something very, very like meta with Deadpool, where you give Deadpool a Twitch drop skin and it completely changes his voice lines, and they actively update the skin's voice lines with what's going on in pro play.

Because Deadpool breaks the fourth wall all the time, right? Like you could be so creative and cool with what, like, you can do. But they just don't. They just I don't know. So

Coach Mills (01:16:44.169)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:16:50.163)
I mean I they could they could even take it like a crazy step forward. Like like let's say that there's like a tournament that's happening and they say like try the new hero three days early, like drops, like shit like that. Like not in comp but like in quick play, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a million things they could do, yeah.

Lyte (01:17:01.208)
Yeah, yeah, like you could get so creative with it. Like that I think is the easiest it is the easiest number one way that we could bring more eyes onto the game before we have any discussion about what like like the actual pro scene should look like or what the game fundamentally should be.

Coach Mills (01:17:16.061)
It it would also do a great job at connecting the casual to pro audience because like a lot of casual players just don't even engage in the pro scene. But like if if you did stuff like that, like I think that they watch a little bit of it and then they get excited about it, you know, like it that's how you bring people in and yen like connect connect y'all's missions or visions, you know?

Lyte (01:17:23.672)
Yeah.

Lyte (01:17:31.448)
Yeah.

Lyte (01:17:34.71)
Yeah. But the the final thing is on the healing, I really, really would prefer supports to be less offensive in this game. Trust me, I know that you said that you wanted to give them more damage, but I think like maybe it's different in pro play, but like I feel like there are certain like Luna, I would rather her be more survivable than being able to one shot you. Have an instant undodgeable freeze that kills you.

And I'm seeing so many flanking Luna clips on Twitter where like this character is so unbelievably overtuned in her damage. Like, take that shit away right now. I know that she's a die victim and everything, but I would rather Luna be like four hundred health than one shot me.

TrqstMe (01:18:19.355)
This is this is this is the thing. Now you gave a actual solution because you said you want other characters to feel better, right?

Coach Mills (01:18:20.075)
Like what

Lyte (01:18:21.056)
It's just so boring to play against.

TrqstMe (01:18:30.991)
Having a solution for that is so unbelievably hard to find because you would have to break down each and everything. You just said one solution, right? Which is you reduce Luna's like s damage but you uptime her survivability. Well that now leads into a contest loop where the enemy Luna will be permanently contested, you know, by everyone because she can't help herself, she can't clear stuff. So now the DPS have to clear. So now it comes into a situation where now you have a D PS duel because the DPS is the next best victim. So you would

have one tank be sent on the lunar and on the back line that contests them and will make them look at each other or something and then you will have one the DPS battle each other, you know, that would be what it would lead to.

Lyte (01:19:07.522)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Coach Mills (01:19:08.853)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:19:11.439)
And that's fine. You know, that's like a a different direction where the game would cater to. Is it the best possible? Probably not for many people. You know? Because it's also not a fun gameplay for the Luna player. Because why would you want a game where now you can't defend yourself and you're a perma victim? Because it goes back to that, right? Now why did they add White Fox? Because before against Deadville, against Black Cat, you were a perma victim, Devil and Black Cat are way too overtuned. Because if they executed coordinatively well, as I said, dive is meta in pro play, triple support is meta in non pro play or semi pro play.

because of that reason because it's like harder to execute but better you know that's the reality so it's it's going to suck for Luna plays which is why they add more of these overtuned supports or give or overtuned supports in general because they can't really judge it because they don't have the opportunity to learn.

Lyte (01:19:45.08)
Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Coach Mills (01:19:56.128)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:19:59.648)
My I I don't know if you agree with this, trust me, but my for me, one of the best design supports ever is Anna from Overwatch. And the reason is because she has decisions to make. And no sub there's very few supports in the game right now that have that many hard decisions. So like Anna had the decision to use Nade offensively, which was mostly the best way to use it in high level, but you could use it that way, or you could use it defensively. But if you use it offensively, you're vulnerable. If you use it defensively, you're

you're not getting the full value out of it that you could be using it offensively with. So, like, my problem with a lot of these supports is they have utility that can be used multiple times all the time, or they could be used both offensively and defensively at the same time. like as an example, like Lunaclap is offensive, but it also heals her, so it's defensive at the same time and it pierces. Like, I think that there is room in in I think.

probably light would agree with like there's definitely room for just higher skill expression and decisions that actually matter throughout the sport cast rather than a lot of decisions that just don't feel like they actually matter. Like you just press buttons and n it doesn't matter like

Lyte (01:21:08.034)
Yeah, I wanna I wanna take the the opportunity, trust me, to respond to you as well. so I think like to get specific I think melee dive DPS care or melee characters in general, to be honest, they have to get value by taking risks and going in. And supports like every support in this game has passive value in the sense that they could just sit main and heal. And because there's that discrepancy

TrqstMe (01:21:08.622)
Okay.

Lyte (01:21:37.236)
if it is an isolated one v one, a support should be dis like they can have a couple of archetypes in how they're designed. Like you could have the rocket type where he's super super mobile and he has infinite range healing. But in return he doesn't have a stun or he doesn't have like any other way to defend himself besides running away. Or you could have Luna where like she has fall off. She does have that infinite range healing. It's not as effective as like Jeff or Rocket, I believe. I don't know what the fall off number healing is exactly, but like she doesn't have the same mobility and if you get on top of her, she could just kill you.

And my problem with Luna is like she has the passive value of being a support, but I think her design in the sense of that if you go onto her, I'm okay with supports having options to defend herselves. It's just too much. It's like White Fox. Like the healing on White Fox passive form is too much. And the damage on Luna Snow is too much. And the snowball is too easy to hit. Like there are characters like Daredevil why he's so strong is he actually has the tools to be able to kill Luna if you deflect the freeze.

Otherwise you get one shot. Or like Black Cat can iframe it. That's why those characters are so good. But if you play any other dive character into Luna, you are one shot. You can't play Spider Man into her. Panther, you but she has like four hundred health. You can't even do your full combo on her and kill her. And most of the time if you're playing against good Lunas, they just kill you instantly on your end gauge. If you hit the freeze at all, you instantly die. And it is just too far one sided in the term of the support than it is in the diver. Now at high level play, where everyone's coordinated and you all go at the same time and you one shot her, that's great.

But there are things like the rocket beacon, like your own team marking, a variety of different things that you can play to stop that from happening. But I just think like for most people in most situations it is too far lopsided on the side of the support in the passive value.

TrqstMe (01:23:23.331)
Okay, I can speak up against it. It goes back to the original problem. The reason why the supports are so strong is because the enemy has this continuous hit.

You cannot clear people. It is impossible. You will have a cap flake in your backline with Dino in their team. The Dino will trade on your Dino. The moment your Luna gets contested because the enemy cap has flake and he's going to go on you, he will not be cleared because your DPS have to turn for him. You the enemy cap has too many movement cooldons to play around and bait with your attention. The same with the Didi, right? The DD can always go behind cover, always just AFK behind the wall, and he's still a threat to the Luna.

Luna can't run away, can't clear him, most of the time, at least if you're not misplaying, right? Because that's the reality. If you're misplaying, then that will happen. Or if if someone else is misplaying in your team, right? Whatever.

Now the problem is now you require the Luna to have that tool to defend herself if you don't want a miserable experience on the Luna. And if the Luna has a miserable experience, as I said, the entire game is rooted around your supports. As soon as your supports are dead, you lose the fight. There is no other alternative. That is the game. That is Marvel Rivets. The way to get away from that is to turn the game into less of an slop of cooldons.

Lyte (01:24:23.15)
I have question. I have a question.

TrqstMe (01:24:43.371)
and HP and make it more attractable to trading. Like in example in Overwatch, heroes do a lot more damage compared to rivals. Tanks do a lot more damage in a 1v1. They have a lot less HP. Now they have more than they had in the past, right? But it also turned like that when when the game released, you know, at one point. Because Overwatch is the same case with rivals. It also got movement crept. Ana is unplayable in Overwatch right now on most maps.

Because the heroes that have good movement punish Anna too well. The same way Luna gets punished by good movement. And the way they compensate for that is by making Luna stronger with her base kit. Because that was the only choice they had. So it it sucks for either side. It sucks for you as well, because if you're solo diving as you said and you're not in a professional environment, it feels like you would want Anna to be weaker, whereas if you're the from the Anna side, it feels like the adivin still too strong. And we need to ban it out first. Because I

Can't deal with it alone. You know what I mean?

Lyte (01:25:42.658)
Yeah, I I think I have a question and like a response. My my response is like whenever I'm I'm speaking about my opinions, for the most part they're like like in ranked. So it speaks for a more majority of player base and I should I should better clarify if I'm speaking about pro play or ranked. in pro play, like I think Luna's completely fine. 'Cause if you have someone else in w in there with you, it's like a completely different story. The freeze is single target, she's a mobile,

Like the damage threshold that Darede like Daredevil can instantly drop like two hundred and seventy damage on you, unmissable. and despite how much like healing or region she has from the other support, like it's still like a lot, on top of the wall hacks and everything. But My question was to you earlier when you were mentioning about how you wanted to completely redesign the game and you talked about like the movement creep and stuff. Do you think that if you were to nerf most movement cooldowns in the sense of you increased their cooldown themselves, or if you

reduce the distance depending on the character, that that that window being increased increases the counterplay and response that you could have after receiving the hit, like after absorbing it.

TrqstMe (01:26:51.107)
It would increase the it would increase the skill expression of the time window, but it also would require more nerfs. It would require tanks to be less bulky. It would require tanks to have not be like this big HP hitbox. It would require supports to be

Lyte (01:26:51.532)
And that would open up like a healthier gameplay loop.

TrqstMe (01:27:08.067)
less of a heel board playstyle and more of an angle taking and supporting your DPS in that sense playstyle instead of like standing behind your tank and getting value from that, it would be a complete restructure to the entire game. My approach.

Lyte (01:27:21.346)
Yeah, that sounds yeah. That sounds like a lot more how Overwatch plays. Like I haven't played Overwatch in like a year and a half, maybe two years. Yeah, yeah. But that reminds me a lot of how it used to play when I was playing it actively.

TrqstMe (01:27:25.977)
Yeah, it it does. I I I know I know that it sounds like that, but it's it it wouldn't be like that.

Coach Mills (01:27:27.039)
Well yeah. Yeah yeah. Well well

'Cause 'cause like I think one of the criticisms, trust me, that we've come to a lot on this pod is that it feels like the uptime of some of these sustainabilities are so frequent that like you could have a hit and then you can disengage like in ranked. And if the hit isn't fast enough, like and it's very hard to be fast enough, you're not gonna be able to hit again before they get these cooldowns back. Like they come up too often. Like cloak bubble eight seconds as an example. Like I cloak is not really that strong right now, but like just in the past, right? so like I think that

Like I mostly would agree with what you're talking about, but it would have to also come with like an increase in cooldowns from a lot of these sustained cooldowns. Like like increase in cooldown time. Like a lot of these would have to be much greater. Like I like the idea that like I force out invis push and I force out invis jump and then like that actually matters. Like like you're talking about, like like them wasting cooldowns actually matters in the same way that like in Overwatch, wasting a cooldown, wasting a nay that I like I I I've probably coached like hundreds of Ana players in low ELO that like

they would just use Nade for dumb shit, right? They take ten damage or twenty and they nade themselves, self nade and then like they could actually be punished for that and they typically would get punished for that at some point where they could have used that cooldown. That almost never happens in rivals or at least it doesn't happen as frequent as I think that you would prefer and I would prefer. 'Cause like it it's like mistakes that are not being actually ever exploited. They're just being like overwritten or like they just don't matter.

TrqstMe (01:28:53.593)
Because you can avoid being punished for that.

Most of the time because you have movement cooldowns, because you have like escape tools on every hero, right? Even even like dive characters have that. Every dive character has escape tools, cap, venom. All of the characters have escape tools. They can do everything. Even the and and most of the time that will be the result of it. You know, so i it is as you said, the cooldowns are too long. You would have to like reduce the dopamine in that sense, as I as I said earlier, right? By reducing the cooldowns, making the game feel more

of like a punish window and create more room of error in that sense for many characters in in one v one situations as well so that you can actually be challenged on angles which you can't be now. Because you can avoid the angle duel and you can find better value in the map which is by going on the Luna.

Captain Coach (01:29:44.577)
But is that realistic though? Cause casual players are probably watching right now. Like this guy's trying to take away my atom flight, you know? Like there's a lot of things that they'll just add just cuz. And it's like, I don't think really that's I mean, it's almost like what you might as well push maybe your critiques of the game towards an area that may be more useful. I don't know. I like that's kind of my criti criticism of your whole argument. Is it's not really realistic.

Lyte (01:30:12.098)
I wanna yeah, I wanna play devil's advocate too, trust me.

TrqstMe (01:30:12.667)
There's there's no argument from me, I'm just making an entire statement. My entire point was everyone has different opinions. As I said, a as you say, right? My approach would not cater towards a certain type of group, guaranteed. That is a a hundred percent going to be the case, but none of the approaches we brought up will do that.

Coach Mills (01:30:16.627)
Well

Coach Mills (01:30:27.028)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:30:30.953)
Right.

Lyte (01:30:31.21)
My my concern is like it kinda making the game more like Overwatch, I think, would not appeal to a lot of people as well, or they would go play Overwatch. And I think that's like a big concern that we would like if we were to go in this direction that we ha would have to be careful about is like we want Rivals itself to be a game that's unique and plays differently than Overwatch. Otherwise we will just always be a worse Overwatch.

and I think part of like the fantasy and like the great things about this game is like how powerful the characters are. You would never get a character like Daredevil in Overwatch. I'm not exactly sure about Prime Vendetta, but like imagine a character like Daredevil that had like permobile hacks and resets and you know, all the shit that he gets. Do you? Does Vendetta play like that?

Coach Mills (01:31:09.893)
It would be insane. It would be insane. It'd be insane. It'd be fucking insane. Yeah, Honor would have no no counterplay. What's up?

TrqstMe (01:31:17.477)
But you have that. You have that. But it's it's you have that in Overwatch. The this is like a thing a lot of people underestimate. What do you mean by that? If you mean meta-defining characters, you have that. In Overwatch it's a pick or lose.

Lyte (01:31:32.342)
No, I don't mean meta defining characters. I mean like if you take like the averag a like the average aggregate power of an Overwatch character compared to rivals, like what you can actually do in the map. Like the the actual like game itself might feel like relative because everyone's so powerful, but the overall power of a rival's character, I would say is higher than an Overwatch one. Like characters like Spider Man and Daredevil and like Luna and Sue and like these infinite like look at Zen's trunk to Luna's, like release Luna's.

Coach Mills (01:31:32.831)
No, we're we're we're we're just we're just talking about a Kiro with that level of power in the kit. Like

Lyte (01:32:01.792)
Six seconds to twelve on top of all the other shit that she can do. A Zen orb that goes through walls and stays on you permanently, right? Like that's kind of what I'm talking about. And I think that that type of power fantasy Exactly, like that that type of power fantasy that you get from rivals is what makes it so attractive attractive to me and why I personally enjoy it. Now how much you value that and like my personal feelings and opinions is up to you. But I think that that is a big draw for a lot of people, and that you can hop on this game and not only play like iconic superheroes

Coach Mills (01:32:08.895)
Yeah. Yeah, I yeah, ca fucking cat cast Castety to to to Bucky. I mean it's like not even remotely close.

Lyte (01:32:31.736)
But they actually feel strong and powerful. And I I think that we should try our best to stick to like that core identity of rivals without it getting to a degree where you have characters like Gambit for six months, while also getting to the point where we don't have characters like Fanta or Blade, who have just been perpetually dog shit for forever, and give them a unique identity that can scale in this power of fantasy where they can find their place in the game.

Coach Mills (01:32:56.115)
I guess I have a question for you, Light. Do you think that there's some characters that should never be meta? Like do you think do you yeah, do you think like Squirrel Girl should never be meta or Scarlet Witch? Or do you think that those characters either one should always be bad or two should be reworked so that they have a more natural skill curve? What do you think?

Lyte (01:33:00.194)
Never.

Lyte (01:33:10.052)
well it depends what you mean by meta. I would say like Yeah, I would say like the lower skill tier heroes should remain like we should try to get every character at least in C tier. We don't want any characters to just be dog shit unplayable twenty four seven no matter what. Every character should be pickable if the circumstances are right. But there are characters in this game that are just like like Squirrel Girl's niche is that she has a ton of front to back loaded damage. But her weakness is that she's super vulnerable.

Coach Mills (01:33:11.967)
Like like like A or S tier?

Lyte (01:33:39.308)
Her damage is inconsistent. She can't really deal with flyers. And so, like, if we can find a way to make it to where Squirgirl's weaknesses are addressed in the degree where it's not so easy to deal with her, while also not making her damage so overloaded that it becomes obnoxious and unplayable to play against her if you're playing a Groot, if you're playing a a Strange, if you're playing a thing, a Dino, like anything like that. Like, that is the goal of what I was just talking about earlier about like

We need to try to do our best to not make heroes good in every situation, but not make them unplayable in the current ones is what makes them terrible now. And that's like the constant challenge of balance of like this this give and take or whatever. And in my opinion, variety is the spice of life in rivals of where we should try to get as many characters in the game as possible, while also maintaining that the harder characters should more often than not be better.

Coach Mills (01:34:13.555)
Right. It it pr I mean it'd probably s yeah.

TrqstMe (01:34:20.987)
Captain Coach is not happy.

Coach Mills (01:34:36.543)
Right. Okay, so

Lyte (01:34:38.36)
Hulk should be good, Spider Man should be good, Gene should be good, Star Lord should be good, Venom should be good. Rocket should not be that good that often. fucking Jeff, Scarlet, Squirrel, Iron Man, like the lower skill heroes shouldn't be as good as consistent, but they shouldn't be worthless. They should not be worthless.

Captain Coach (01:35:01.707)
Trust me, it looks like you wanna say something.

TrqstMe (01:35:01.851)
I'm not happy with you light. You just contradicted yourself, no? You said like every character should be C tier but now you say the lower skill character should be worse.

Lyte (01:35:06.616)
Did I?

No, no, no. No, I said every every character we should try to get them in a sorry, let me let me clarify. We should try to get every character minimum C tier as in pickable. And defining C tier is like this character has a niche that can be played in the game. And I would say like a D tier character is don't pick this character under any circumstances too weak, it's not good. But you can still have B, A, S, whatever characters, and that's going to change over time as more heroes is added in the game in the balance. But I don't want to look at the DPS cast.

and see half of them being unplayable or so niche that it can only be played by a specialist in a particular circumstance.

Coach Mills (01:35:46.812)
Right. I I think another thing Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. one of the 'cause one of the things I I think we also want to stay away from and I think you'd agree with me, Light. So I we've used like magic examples in the past, you know, blue is control and like I know we talked about that before. Well there's a concept in magic called strictly better, which is just a card that is they cost the exact same, but one card does something better. Like one card will say counter target spell for blue, blue, blue.

Lyte (01:35:48.888)
Does that does that clarify? Sorry to cut you off, Mills, but I want to make sure that like I'm understood. Does that make more sense? Okay.

TrqstMe (01:35:51.843)
Valid.

Coach Mills (01:36:14.579)
And one card will say counter target spell, draw a card. And one of those cards is just strictly better. It's like straight up, it makes no sense to put one card in your deck if you could play the other card. And so like that that is a lot like in Rivals that happens a lot where there are characters that are just strictly better. They're just they they they do very similar things, but they have less weaknesses. They do very similar things, but they, you know, have have more playmaking, whatever the case may be, right? So like right. Like it

Lyte (01:36:40.738)
Yeah, like D D D Magic, Gene to Hella.

Coach Mills (01:36:43.207)
I if a character like the more unique character strengths are, like especially if they're like on the lower power level, like give them really unique strengths that are like like double down on those unique strengths instead of making characters that are just like kind of the same as one another, but one of them's just like obviously just like a worse version. That's why I think a there's a big criticism to like Gene and Hella becoming more homogenized. Like they're like they should have doubled down and and and differentiated the two, like pushed their hero design further away.

Like I liked a world where, you know, they they they they never got rid of the spark. They hardcapped Jean's damage like, you know, ten meters or fifteen meters or something like like turn her into a more close range character with more mobility and stuff like that. Just to d instead of turning her into a character that feels very hella light, and then we have these characters that are strictly better. Like give them uniqueness in their kit.

Lyte (01:37:23.608)
Yeah.

Lyte (01:37:31.394)
Yeah, I like how Overwatch did it with their hit scans. Like Sojourn and Cassidy and Soldier and Widow and Ash are all like very unique in like how they play and their ranges. And I wish I wish rivals would design their hit scans a little bit more like that. Like Black Widow, I think, is a character that should be pickable in a lot of scenarios. Like it's a very skill expressive hit scan sniper character that speaks to a lot of people. I think that the kick is just so

Coach Mills (01:37:38.473)
Ash.

Lyte (01:37:58.626)
dumb on the character and like despite her being bad she's extremely toxic to play against. Like she's so she's so easily she's so easy to kill with any amount of coordination. But if you're having like a pure one v one like like what happens in ranked, you just like you can't dive her. And then she's also a sniper, so she just kills you and it's like

Coach Mills (01:38:08.82)
Right. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:38:14.953)
Yeah. I l Hey here here's a rework idea I had. I actually talked to some widow widow players about this. What do you think about this rework? So literally remove the kick. Just straight up remove the kick. I think that's the problematic part of the thing. Give her a grapple, just like Widowmaker in Overwatch. She gets a grapple. And then instead of Baton, she has like MAC tens, like very close range SMG. Think of like Frenzy and Valorant or like just like very close range damage. So like she could body shot someone, grapple to them, shoot them down. She's vulnerable. She can't crowd control you.

Lyte (01:38:24.812)
Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:38:43.443)
You know, like i if she wants to outplay a dive, she could like shoot you in the body, grapple up and then like shoot you, like like gives you counterplay, but it's not I kick one person and then I just get to grapple to you for free and stun you for no fucking reason, like.

Lyte (01:38:44.098)
Yeah, it doesn't

Lyte (01:38:54.486)
Yeah, it doesn't even matter what the rework is. Like let's just have an identity to the character's archetype. Like like I would like to see Gene reworked into a mid range like mid to close range hypermobile hit scan character. So like remove the stun, but decrease the blink cooldown every time she hits a headshot or something.

Coach Mills (01:39:07.979)
It would be so sick.

Coach Mills (01:39:13.737)
Yeah, or or or or ignites the flames or some shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Lyte (01:39:13.932)
J something simple. We don't have to go into the specific details. Yeah. We don't have to go into the specific details, but give her an identity that separates her from Hella. Let Hella be the ash of this game where she's like the medium to long range sniper character and you pick on situations like Clintar, like Hall of De Jolia, where or maps where you can just like take angles and that's fine. That's Hella's thing. But don't make Hella and Jean the same. Don't make Black Widow Hella Jean all the same. Like let's just get some variety going. Like let's get it

Magic's identity here and Daredevil's identity here and Black Cat's identity here and Spider Man's here for the divers.

Captain Coach (01:39:45.075)
Yeah, w Widow's an interesting one because I mean they gave her a team up a couple whatever patches ago where she can heal with her shots, right? This is something we've talked about on previous episodes quite a lot is trying to make heroes viable in the higher ranks through the team ups. And I was going to open it up to you guys. W do you think there's like a team up they could give Widow that would make her pickable in pro play? And

Lyte (01:39:51.682)
With Phoenix, yeah.

Captain Coach (01:40:11.401)
What ki types of team ups would you wanna see in general for the weaker characters? moving forward? Go with either either one of you if you got

Lyte (01:40:19.765)
You can go out of trust

TrqstMe (01:40:21.099)
shit. I was looking at something else. I did not listen. Shit. You got it.

Coach Mills (01:40:25.126)
Ha ha ha.

Lyte (01:40:25.176)
He said he said he was asking if

Captain Coach (01:40:26.889)
You're good.

Lyte (01:40:31.18)
He was asking, for a Black Widow, is there a team that they could add into the game? Like a team up that would make her a viable character? And we were basically just talking about like how they should distinguish the hit scans from one another so that they don't feel homogenized and give like a all the h like all the hit scans ideally certain identities, all the flankers' identities where they could be slotted in the specific situations.

TrqstMe (01:40:53.275)
Right now any hit scan is unplayable. So if you truly wanna make your head scan feel better, you gotta restructure the game.

Lyte (01:41:03.362)
Would you classify like would you classify Star Lord as a hit scan? Are you talking just Hella Jean, Black Widow? Elsa?

TrqstMe (01:41:08.257)
Okay, let me restructure it. Slow pacing hit scans, okay. No movement, no in invince frames, hit scans. Silock doesn't Silock's high mobility. Silo's high mobility. You know, so these characters are playable. But all the non mobility hit scans aren't playable. Yeah, I mean there's like a one thousand six hundred HP tank occupying the lane and you don't have a movement cooler to avoid them. So

Lyte (01:41:12.674)
Yeah. That's what I thought.

Captain Coach (01:41:24.049)
Okay. So let's

So what if Hella gets

Lyte (01:41:27.694)
'Cause the movement creep, right? Yeah, which I hard agree.

TrqstMe (01:41:37.189)
Just zero chance of counterplay. Or like a four 500 HP DD with deflect with like if even if you get him to one shot, he's just going to grapple behind the corner and in five seconds he's going back on you. So just zero chance of playing the game. Exactly. Like no no no DPS, no hitskin DPS is playable. Punisher is playable, but only in triple support if the enemy can't execute the dive. And that is viable in pro play when dive characters are banned.

Lyte (01:41:49.238)
Yeah. It's the same it's the same reason why Namor is bad too, I think. Like he just like twenty second bubble, like you can't do anything.

Lyte (01:42:06.54)
Yeah. And the shotgun. The shotgun's awesome. Little less serious topic, bro. The shot bro, Punisher has been so much fun for me recently. Because every single game, every game, I get Daredevil, Black Cat, and then either Star Lord or Spider Man Band. And then people play Dino and I pull out the shotgun and fly into the back line. And it's a great time. That that thing is awesome.

TrqstMe (01:42:10.106)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:42:16.635)
good.

Captain Coach (01:42:17.578)
I've been enjoying.

Coach Mills (01:42:28.659)
My my man's playing my plan's playing budget Spider-Man, bro, like legit Spider-Man from Walmart, bro, flying the fucking

Lyte (01:42:36.396)
No, he is so fun. He is so fun just sitting there pumping people with the shotgun, bro. Like it does so much damage. It's awesome.

Coach Mills (01:42:43.315)
And and and like I think it's gonna be really hard, trust me, for p for like the casual audience to even understand the level at which you talk about the game, to be honest with you. Just because their experiences are so far removed. Like like the idea that like Gene Gray is unplayable, which like she's just not really particularly good in pro play right now, according to you.

TrqstMe (01:43:04.111)
No, John John play John Gray is a little bit more playable because you have because you have less margins of error, right? The same way Punisher also can be played. Yeah, yeah, I get it.

Coach Mills (01:43:07.495)
A little bit a little bit more mobility. Right. Or but like Namore or like the idea that Namor is not playable or something like that. Like like no one is gonna understand that really, right? Like they're not really gonna understand why that is. Like it it it's because like while you talk about mobility creep, right? Like what mobility also does is like it gives you infinite choices and infinite repositions at all times, right? So like the higher skill you are as a team and as a player, the more you're gonna use that, and the lower skill you are, the like the less you are and like

The reality is like even top five hundred players, like your average top five hundred player is not repositioning as much as like y'all are, like not even remotely close. Like n it's like so far.

TrqstMe (01:43:44.358)
Goes goes back to what I said, right? Like the MRC teams, like the second division professional teams, will play triple support and the first division will play full dive with two supports. Because because you can bypass that issue, right? Because you have a deeper understanding of the game. The problem once again leads to the same root issue that there's no opportunities to learn. Because people don't know where to start. There's infinite stuff to learn.

Coach Mills (01:43:56.585)
Right. And y'all can just y'all can just I s I gotcha. Okay.

Lyte (01:44:11.874)
Yeah, I think a big issue too, trust me, between that barrier and like like I think I can speak a little bit more closely on this, like you're on one of the best teams in Ignite and I'm on one of the worst. So like obviously like my team's skill level is much closer to that semi pro type of tier. And I've been saying for like forever, like guys, like we just need to lock in and play dive, it's just better. And the reason is, is because triple support in order to be a successful comp, it wins inevitability. So like if you just sit there and AFK, do nothing, farm support ults you'll win.

But when you're playing against divers and teams that are really, really good at dive, if you don't absorb the hit perfectly, you die. And then even if you do, they just leave and you don't have the ability to punish them. You can't chase them, or you can't walk forward and kill them in time before they come back in, and their second hit is stronger. Because typically those movement cooldowns are shorter than your cooldowns that you need to survive. Like Mantis Sleep is fifteen seconds, Venom's slam is eight seconds, his swing is eight seconds. So he's back at he slams in, swings out.

He's back in the second time, this time he commits his shields and he kills you if you use your sleep at the wrong time. And like those types of mistakes happen all the time at that level. And especially when you start adding in like Venom's chomp, a capflake having perma uptime, Rocket existing, throwing the bongo in, and then everyone gets focused and dies instantly. Like there's so many things and and combinations. Gene Grey, her old combo with everybody, that pierces through supports of the neutral.

that like when you get to that higher level of play and you can actually coordinate, set up your hits, no one feeds or gets pre fighted, and you just cycle over and over again, it it's impossible to play triple. Like you just can't unless it's like Loki Mantis into Daredevil and you banned Luna and Gene and Black Cat, which would never happen. So like

TrqstMe (01:45:51.555)
It it sucks.

TrqstMe (01:45:55.575)
It straight up sucks. You can be in the same matchup and not be at the better skill level and get shit on by a triple subcomp comp, even though it's worse in the moment because you're not better on dive. That sucks. And then eventually you will face a team and you will play the triple support and you might be good on it, but the dive team will be better on it, and that will be meta. And then what defines that? Right? What means? What does that mean? Why is it matter? Why is it not better? And to that level, getting to that level, many people don't get because you can avoid it by skipping and thinking, okay.

Lyte (01:46:05.1)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

TrqstMe (01:46:25.469)
I'm avoiding the matchup entirely and just changing what I played earlier. Because it feels better now.

Coach Mills (01:46:30.143)
Do do do you as as a as a tank player who's like extremely good at dive tanks, trust me, do you prefer this kind of meta where dive is that good and mobility is that strong? Or would you prefer like a triple support is actually the best comp meta? Or like maybe back like in the old in the old days where it was like res comp or something like that, where it's like it's not about hyper mobility all the time. Like w what's your what's your opinion on the thing?

TrqstMe (01:46:50.423)
I I don't wanna sound this like an ego trip, but the reason why I am successful with dive is because dive is the best. Me as a pro player, I adapt to what is the best in the moment right now, and I will play whatever is best. So for me it doesn't matter what is the best in the moment right now. I'll play any meta, I'll play any archetype, and I will make sure I'll I'll perform on that archetype in the enemy matchup.

So that is my job, right? So for me it has nothing to do with dive being like better for me or not. So enjoying I do it's hard to say. I do enjoy the ability of like

Coach Mills (01:47:21.865)
Right. Okay. But I'm just saying what do you enjoy? Do you does it not matter, or do you just w enjoy winning?

TrqstMe (01:47:33.506)
Having that trade on the back line sometimes, you know, having that mobility on the map. I d I am a mobility creep guy as well. There's no other way around it. I like bypassing issues with venom, I like bypassing issues with cap. I like playing with the enemy's attention, you know, playing a cat and mouse game, and that is what Rivals is about, you know, right now. That is what it is about. So I can't argue that I do cater to dive tanks because they feel good as well. But I also think that I wouldn't hate trade

Front to back if it wouldn't feel so miserable. Because right now playing Groot feels absolutely shit. Playing Dino feels absolute shit. You just get shot. You know? Yeah, I mean it just feels miser miserable. It's like playing Groot into Wolf. You know, you had to do it. You had to do it. You play Groot into Wolf, it's it sucks, you know? And then if you go thing, the enemy has a Groot and you lose.

Coach Mills (01:48:09.035)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I've I've seen a lot of Twitter posts about like like like like tank mains clocking in their nine to five scrims as gro 'cause it's it's just like yeah, right.

Lyte (01:48:24.142)
Pre iron wall too.

TrqstMe (01:48:25.347)
Yeah, I mean it sucks. We got the we got the iron wall because it sucked. Does it improve it? Not in the long run. It's just a another thing to avoid, you know, it doesn't fix the root issue, which is the fact that Yeah. No, it it's fine.

Coach Mills (01:48:25.843)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lyte (01:48:30.135)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:48:30.217)
What what

Lyte (01:48:36.14)
I personally sorry.

Coach Mills (01:48:40.373)
Well do do you think that there are changes that people can make like the devs can make that make it so that the group matchup doesn't suck as bad? Like changes to the wolves, changes to the group, changes to balance, like like are you in favor of those? Like things that

Lyte (01:48:40.792)
Yeah, I was

TrqstMe (01:48:48.165)
Yeah. It starts with

It starts with the fact of removing three hundred HP from the Groot, making making sure it starts with the fact of removing HP from the supports and making Groot's hitbox less approachable and giving him more of a sustainability by adding a a shield to him, a small one, that he can use to outplay certain areas on the map. Like I I it goes back to what I said. I only think if you want to make certain things feel better in the game, and if you wanna care about that group of people

people that care about that because then we're once again talking about what I would want and niche niche things right which many people don't understand and don't care right which is which is valid right every every every player's opinion is in the end of the day valid it's customer's choice and tr people try to cater towards that and

If that is the case, then you need to restructure the game in the way I would see it, obviously. And that would only cater towards a small variety of T people and maybe it would create a new archetype of game that would bring in new players because it feels different. But maybe not, you know. So right now, as Slide said, we want to enjoy the rivals we have and we wanna make it better. I can see that, but what is the rivals we have right now? Who can define it? How deep does it get?

Coach Mills (01:50:01.547)
So So to get to your core point, like there's things that you would like and that could create a completely different type of game, but you care mostly about the popularity and the health of the game as a whole, right? So like and you're willing to just adapt and not change too much about the game if it means the game is doing well, getting a lot of downloads.

TrqstMe (01:50:15.407)
Yes.

TrqstMe (01:50:22.841)
losing it's it's losing its its magic in that sense. It because if you change the entire game you will have a completely new game obviously. Right?

Coach Mills (01:50:31.517)
Right. So even though that's the game that you would prefer in a vacuum, it's not necessarily the changes that you would enforce.

TrqstMe (01:50:35.066)
Yes.

It's it's not what I would enforce. What I would want is I would want more people to the game. And I think you can achieve that by making it more popular by giving certain things that people want. Like as I said, cast them game, giving more opportunities, because I I speak a lot about opportunity, right? Opportunities to learn, opportunities to grow, investing into actual good casters, because we don't have them. I'm sorry to I hated a lot on the casters, but it

Into good casters that know how to properly analyze, that can give actual value to the people, and even that isn't enough. You need actual pros, former pros, that are deeper connected to the game, that understand the deepness of the game, that understand the level of the importance of the game. Maybe even have coaches like you be able to do that. Or like maybe have them during Ignite talk about the game, you know, so the people can actually feel connected to the pro play. Or

Coach Mills (01:51:16.331)
The the caster stray is crazy.

Coach Mills (01:51:24.533)
I mean I mean w what happened in Overwatch will probably happen in rivals that eventually X pros will be casters, most likely. Y'all will be color casters. It will probably happen. Light, you're gonna be a you're gonna be a caster. We gotta we gotta PG up your image a little bit. We gotta we gotta

TrqstMe (01:51:30.681)
Yeah, exactly. That will that will also guaranteed happen. And that won't be bad. Yeah, that won't be bad.

Lyte (01:51:35.854)
Dogma Dogman Dogman keeps working on it. You know, I've been I've been better. I've been a good boy. I I'm not flaming any anybody anymore for the most part. I've kept my head down. I'm focusing on myself, trying to improve.

Coach Mills (01:51:41.888)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:51:48.245)
Nah, yeah, you would actually be a sick caster. That would actually be dope.

TrqstMe (01:51:48.795)
Blockman is a good castler.

Captain Coach (01:51:50.771)
The first two times I came into Lightstream, he was on a rant about the same hero and it was like months apart. He was talking about Gene Gray.

Lyte (01:51:54.766)
I have it.

Coach Mills (01:51:54.932)
No No you you sa wa wait y li you saw that rage bait treat w right? They were like they were like the rage ba he Yeah, bro It's just your name. You're on the Rage Bait Hall of Fame. Holy

Lyte (01:52:00.436)
Yeah, I quote tweeted at LeBron James. Yeah. Yeah. Like a gif with LeBron James. Yeah. Yeah, no. But I think like if people actually like sat down and like watched my streams, they would kinda understand I'm like much more reasonable. and the stuff that I tweet out is like it's sort of propaganda. Like me saying Black Cat is bad all the time when people ask me and like bitching about Black Cat when she came out because I was bad at the hero, like everyone was. Like I knew No, like I knew that she was good.

Coach Mills (01:52:24.267)
It's like you and Raoul know it's like talking shit.

Lyte (01:52:29.238)
And I'm gonna continue to say that she's bad because I'm I'm biased. I want the character to be strong, it's my favorite playstyle. I like playing melee assassins, it's not a secret, right? Now, does that mean that I can't have like a good opinion about like supports or hit scans or anything that? No, like everyone is biased towards sorting type like a certain type of playstyle or or thing, but like you can still be like like you can still know what's good for the game. Like I'm so down with Black Cat and Daredevil and Dive being nerfed in general.

But we have to understand the repercussions of what that means and what that looks like. And I don't think it would be fun for anyone to sit there and shoot each other main the entire game and the game be like it was in season zero, where you either play off of team ups, which they don't make any good team ups anymore, so that's not an option, or your hella's better than theirs and he flanks and wins his one. Like I don't want to play that, bro. That's boring. But again, that's just an opinion. But I like dive mirrors. I like high mobility. I like the game.

TrqstMe (01:53:20.291)
It it caters towards the the player base, as I said. I I think one thing that would be very important is increasing the player base. And I do think getting custom games, getting more people to watch Twitch with the right drops, right? As you said, that would be all cool. Yeah. Yes, workshop. Sorry, I I mean I I don't mean I workshop.

Lyte (01:53:24.875)
Yeah, I mean

Yeah, that is that is true.

Coach Mills (01:53:31.339)
Like so he's like he's like in like a workshop mode? Like in Overwatch like a workshop?

Lyte (01:53:34.114)
Yeah. Yeah, workshop would be great, yeah. Is that what you mean, trust me? By the the custom yeah. T ten thousand percent. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:53:37.001)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like a like a workshop. It would be insane.

Captain Coach (01:53:39.665)
I'm I'm glad we got to this point. I mean, I've really appreciated your insight, trust me, on you know, being a top player as yourself. But now that we're kinda at this point where we're talking about the the health of the game, we can kind of get into the issue of some of the other issues we really like to talk about. You made a face when Light mentioned EOMM and the matchmaking. And I wanted to like I wanted to come loop around on that and come back to it. I

Lyte (01:54:03.214)
yeah, yeah, so

Coach Mills (01:54:04.479)
Well, once again, bro. I can't get away from this topic no matter what. Like 'cause okay, you go you go and then I I I I have I actually some have some commenters to to to address personally, but you go first.

Lyte (01:54:09.132)
No, I would love to hear it. Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:54:10.763)
Well that that w fix my

Captain Coach (01:54:16.725)
Fix fixing the matchmaking, I think, is one thing the community, a lot of the people, a big majority of the community, for the especially more of the hardcore player base is something that they're strongly advocating to fix. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. And do you think that there is EOM? I you you mentioned like AI and algorithms,

TrqstMe (01:54:33.659)
my god. Bro, I'm going to make myself the state enemy number one. But I'm sorry to say late, I don't believe in that at all. 0%. I think it's a Omega skill issue. And if the skill issue consists out of counter swapping and you're not doing it.

Lyte (01:54:36.012)
Yeah. I would I would love to hear trust me's opinion.

TrqstMe (01:54:51.311)
Then that's just it. Because on tank, an example, there are some roles that feel miserable in ranked. And I understand that. Like as you said, right, the moment you don't have DD and Black Cat, which is banned most of the time, now your value as a DPS feels so much less. Because those heroes are independently right doing so much more on the map than a hella does in a team comp. The same way that if you play cap over dyno, you can do infinitely more on cap than you can on dyno in a ranked map.

match infinite because it goes back to the win condition. You contest the enemy supports. Right? Now you can't do that with the win condition, which is now allowing the supports to take over the lobby. Which black cat, Didi, dive characters deny. You know, which is why people cater towards them. So it goes to that discussion now where you people in ranked will have like they don't e even know when something is good. So it feels like a general miserable experience because no one will be able to allow you to enable yourself.

Like you will not feel good to play if you don't have the right comp around it. And you also if you don't understand the game deep enough, you

You don't understand how to enable yourself and your team in that sense. So it doesn't feel good to play in general. So it's not a matchmaking issue, it's literally just a skill issue to that sense, because the experience and rivals caters to the sense of like everything feels playable in the game before and you just won a game on Mr. Fantastic and now the enemy is hard counter swapping you on Mr. Fantastic and everyone can tell you you you're getting counter swapped on Mr. Fantastic, you're playing complete dog shit hero and the guy will himself will only understand after five games because

Lyte (01:56:34.104)
Yeah. I think I think that's

Captain Coach (01:56:34.581)
Well he w he won't n even know because he's got everybody muted in game and he's just running a Sorry.

Coach Mills (01:56:35.167)
Well

Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

TrqstMe (01:56:38.243)
Or that, right? And then it would it no, but then but then he would eventually end because the brain teaches us to learn. Right. If you lose thirty times in a row, you will be forced to learn. Or you will or or no no no. Or you will be forced or you will be forced to accept the current position. You know? That is the reality.

Lyte (01:56:39.266)
Yeah.

Lyte (01:56:45.72)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:56:46.987)
He's

Captain Coach (01:56:47.457)
Mm. Maybe your brain.

Lyte (01:56:48.416)
I would I would like to yeah, I'd like to

Coach Mills (01:56:57.545)
He here here here's my Okay, go go for it, go for it.

Lyte (01:56:58.53)
Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to respond to it real quick, Mills, if you don't mind. I think one hundred thousand percent you're correct in that like when my best heroes are banned, I mean I guess it's just like it's it's a dual issue of that like they're my best heroes and also they have a lot of impact on the game. And so when I'm off of those characters, it's not only gonna feel like I'm having less impact because I'm not as good as the other characters, but also because those characters just aren't as strong. Like a hundred thousand percent I agree with that.

Captain Coach (01:56:58.721)
Sure. Sure.

Lyte (01:57:25.142)
And I also think that there are a lot of situations at which my lack of hero pull or just like lack of skill doesn't win me games. Like wholeheartedly I'm not gonna disagree with that. My issue is that I've played thousands of ranked games between like League of Legends, Overwatch, Apex, and Rivals. And I have never experienced a matchmaker that feels like so many games are out of my control.

And I think in order to be a pro player, or at least good at anything, there has to be some type of self reflection and ability to like criticize yourself and improve from that. And I'm been like working a lot on that recently of like just assuming everything is my fault, especially like in scrims and in matches and stuff like that, and thinking what can I learn as a player? And despite all of that, that like mentality that I that I've adopted, the matchmaker still feels horrible.

Like I feel like there's so many games where they just get the better players or they get the better comp. Or like for example I had a game yesterday where it was full like I was on Punisher the entire game, it was a full spam mirror, Rocket Punisher, Jeff, Devil Dino, and my team had a Thor, their team had Dino Groot, and I also had a White Fox. And so my team was better, even though they had the comp advantage, my team was better, and so we were holding on.

But the enemy team just adapted, they made their swaps, and we almost lost the game. Yeah, we just counter swapped and we just lost. And it's like, what can I do as the punisher? Like I could aim better, I could have positioned better, I could have pulled my shotgun out better at this time, I could have ulted like all these little micro things, like maybe a better player wins this game in my in my position. But it feels really, really bad when the easier solution is my white fox just plays rocket twenty minutes ago and we win the game, you know?

TrqstMe (01:58:53.219)
And they just count as top your your trash player, right? Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:59:17.411)
It is a real thing.

It is a real thing, and that's the multiplayer experience. The harsh and truth nuke, okay. This is a harsh truth nuke, okay. I I am the only tank in the world that has two rank one finishers. TTK had one last season, but I am the only tank player that has two rank one finishers. So at the end of the season, I I got the highest rank possible, globally, right? So I have a lot to say when it comes to actual like what it feels like in ranked. There is a meta with it. Going into the match, if you truly

Lyte (01:59:22.017)
Exactly. Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:59:48.684)
care about winning part of the skill set is going to a guy's stream let's say I'm playing against Necros an example and I see he has in his team okay he has animated lord selected and you ban it out because that is sound that is a little wait

Coach Mills (02:00:01.132)
Well what the I

Lyte (02:00:02.254)
You just you stream site ban people. See, I don't do that. I don't do that but maybe I don't care enough about winning. That's what I should do.

TrqstMe (02:00:04.963)
No no, but give it one second. Give it one second. This is a legitimate strategy in pro play. You see they have an animated four. You already structure a plan. Okay, we're going to let him play four because he's going to be counter swappable. You talk to your team. Okay, they're going to have a four. Let's play this in advance. Let's try this and try to try to play it and abuse him to win the game. That is a legitimate skill expression of the game. Right now, because of the way the matchmaking is designed, because it's allowed to do it.

Captain Coach (02:00:05.001)
Right, you're what?

Coach Mills (02:00:07.828)
Okay, okay, okay.

TrqstMe (02:00:35.055)
You know? And that's a reality of the thing. You know, you go again Captain Coach. You know he's going to be on hook. You're going to allow him to go hook. You're just going to play a counter comp into him and you're going to win a game against him because he's going to run it down.

Coach Mills (02:00:45.515)
it's

Captain Coach (02:00:46.257)
Hear that you hear that everybody? Way to get rank one. Stream snipe, stream snipe, stream snipe.

Coach Mills (02:00:50.559)
Ha ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (02:00:50.713)
No, that is that is one part of the skill set. The second part is being adaptable and knowing how to do that. And getting your team to do it. Of infinite times. you and me, I thought it me Light. No, sometimes. For sure. Like I I I've I I always do five accounts, two top five hundred each season, right? 'Cause I want old accounts. I don't want to sit in forty minute queues on my main account.

Captain Coach (02:00:57.823)
Have we played against each other before? Have you have you s have we?

Captain Coach (02:01:12.289)
Okay, gotcha, gotcha. That's funny.

TrqstMe (02:01:17.221)
They're o end of season, right? Last day of the season, I I wanna go for rank one. I play eight games in seven hours. It's there on my stream. People can watch it, so no shit.

Captain Coach (02:01:24.779)
So what w what are your views on then all like all the the tracking sites? Are you you must be f for that or or is it just like a necessary evil to you?

TrqstMe (02:01:34.403)
No, it's a necessary thing to do. Because if you don't do it, you're required to lose more games. So the brain tells you, okay, if you wanna win more games, you have to do this thing. Because other people will do it.

Cause if you don't do it, it's a competitive environment, you have to do it. There's no other way around it. It's not even an evil thing to do at that point. It's just a requirement. If you want to win more games. We're talking about 80% win rate. Logically speaking, okay, one third of the time you're always going to lose because you're going to have levers, you're going to have throwers, you're going to have an OTP who doesn't refuse to switch, and then the enemy counter swaps you and it sucks because you can't find a solution with the player you have. Okay. One third of the time you're always going to win because the enemy will

Captain Coach (02:01:56.075)
There's no shame in it? Sure.

TrqstMe (02:02:17.435)
Have that. Okay. They will have a lever, they will have a thrower, they will have someone that will OTP a shit hero, and you can counter swap him if you find the solution. And one third of the time your this your gameplay decides the outcome. And if you calculate those odds, you get a 66% win rate, which might not feel rewarding for most, but that is the optimal win rate to achieve. You can cheat that win rate by playing with a second player, like by by duo queuing with someone, which is what most pro players do. They do it with a second pro, then you cheat that win rate one more time by

out the enemy players, you know, by making sure they they have they can play their optimal hero, therefore they are on a weaker composition. You make sure that they they are more handless in that sense, you know, I I like to use that word. And that is a way to cheat that win rate and make sure you have a higher win rate. And it is a legitimate strategy.

Captain Coach (02:03:03.657)
I'm just furiously furiously typing on this word document here. How to beat EOM I got a big list here of this tech

Coach Mills (02:03:07.563)
Wait, wait, wait. I I have two things to say. no. I I I I have I have I have I have two things that I want to say because I like I'm I'm kinda par partially responding because you know last pod, trust me, I I said there was no EOMM. I kind of debated some people on the pod. I got called a Coper, a shill. There was a lot of accusations thrown my way. Okay, so so first off

TrqstMe (02:03:13.615)
No, there is no EOMM. That's for sure true.

Captain Coach (02:03:16.725)
That's the joke.

Coach Mills (02:03:35.337)
I I got two things to say, but the first thing is I can respect people like Captain Coach and Light that are Hylo players, especially Light, pro player. Y'all play the game a lot, y'all understand the game, y'all believe that there's an EOM or something in the system. I can respect that. Here's the thing. Night no no no no no. I I need to get my full point out. Let me let me get my full point out. No, no, no. No, no, no.

Lyte (02:03:50.766)
Let me wait, hold on, let me let me Yeah yeah. I just I don't think this is important. This is really important. I'm I'm I'm I'm r like I'll be really really quick. I d I don't care I don't care if it is real or isn't real. It feels real. Just important distinction. Sorry buddy. Sorry buddy. Go ahead.

TrqstMe (02:03:55.674)
He doesn't think that. He doesn't think that. He just thinks the game is more often out of his control.

Coach Mills (02:04:00.478)
Okay. Okay. Okay. No. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's that's okay, that's okay fair enough. Okay, okay, okay. Well Captain Coach actually believes in it and there's a lot of people that do. Okay, okay, w once again, let me say my point. Alright. So Yeah, y'all ruined the whole clip for the intro. Alright, alright, anyways. Alright, y'all ruined the fucking clip. Y'all motherfuckers. Ya don't know how to run a podcast. Fuck ya. Alright. Anyways. Goin going back to the thing. So I can understand people that

Captain Coach (02:04:11.423)
I I still do Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

Lyte (02:04:14.328)
Yeah, go ahead, Biss.

Lyte (02:04:20.238)
Fuck.

Captain Coach (02:04:21.172)
Does say it again.

Captain Coach (02:04:25.259)
Get it out.

Coach Mills (02:04:28.873)
Or hi elo, they and understand the game, they grind the game. The problem is 90% of the people that agree with y'all about EOMM are just players that are just bad. They're bad players, they don't understand, and you know, my entire platform is to making people better. I try to coach people, but you have to understand that people are using the idea, the concept of EOMM as a shield to say, I'm in plat, games are dog shit, it's because of the system, it's not because of me. Or I'm in Grandmaster. The reality is you're just not that good. You're not good enough, regardless of the rank you're in.

You're not good enough to climb. That's the first part. It like like so when when Light says that there's something like EOM in the game, he's not you. Like, he's not he's not your ass playing fucking magic in plat. Like, he's not you. And when you when you use him to justify whatever you're justifying, he's not on your side. He doesn't believe in what you believe. I promise you that. The second thing is, I think that the entire concept of EOMM or something like that EOMM is just like a distraction from like real.

solutions that I think we all agree on. Like there are solutions that we all agree about ranked, about performance-based matchmaking, about problems in ranked, about maybe tank tax, or like there are things that we can all universally agree on or at least semi agree on, that that's a more productive conversation than like constantly like screaming about a boogeyman that we'll never be able to prove or not prove, right? Like we can all acknowledge that ranked has its problems and we can all say, hey, these are the solutions that we would like. There are solutions that I think would make ranked better better. But

We all are just like c like debating about like like this formless entity that will never be able to prove one way or another unless Netties comes to us personally and no one will will believe what they say anyways. So it doesn't fucking matter. It's like a pointless conversation to have when there are ranked problem like I agree with you, Light a hundred percent that there are ranked problems, and I think we could probably come up with solutions together.

Captain Coach (02:06:02.666)
I mean he's

TrqstMe (02:06:13.763)
I I do think one thing that you said

I I can't really fully agree to you because it is a valid point to think that EOMM is real because of the things that I said, right? Because a lot of things are out of your control. So for the casual, you know, it feels very easy to cater to. It is not different. Every game has their own skill set. And if the skill set consists out of making the ban in the game, you know, being like n being more knowledgeable and like having the right idea to counter swap, having those

Coach Mills (02:06:29.78)
That's that's that's not different than Overwatch or Valorant or League, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:06:46.749)
things as your asset and that defines the skill set of the game to like may have a higher win rate if you if you're more flexible, you know what to pick at the right time. That unfortunately sucks for some and which makes them feel like your EOM is real.

Captain Coach (02:07:02.485)
So let me let me get this straight then. So you are you yourself have, you know, you admit to using third party resources, right, outside of the game, whether it be a s you know, a stream or or you're saying and you have achieved rank one, as you said, you are a direct beneficiary of of like avoiding a s you know the in game th to assert that there's EOMM there's you

say there's some sort of in-game algorithm that tracks it. So you're you're bypassing all of that are a benefit beneficiary of that system, or or of your like s way of of trying to climb, I just don't see how you can't like you're you are you are avoiding it actively, trying to counter it and then denying it. I I just don't see how that makes sense. I is the game r denying that like matchmaking algorithms exist to keep players on the game longer and

TrqstMe (02:07:51.791)
Denying what?

Captain Coach (02:07:59.242)
it's it's that often at the cost of the games because you you're almost like gaming the system in a way, but like refusing to believe that the system needs to be gamed by the the the denial of of y you think the game is purely just matchmaking is bad because the game's just imbalanced, is that it? Like I I'm not sure what the

Coach Mills (02:08:15.017)
I mean it's too

TrqstMe (02:08:18.291)
yeah.

okay, I understand the question. Okay, the question here is I cheat the system, right? So I skip I skip the idea that EOMM could be real, right? I skip that idea because I know okay, I I have this, I can bypass the rule, I can avoid the issue by like like talking to the guy in a nice way and getting him to play or like a a lot of things that I say sometimes as well, right? Like I am a tank player, I am the best tank player in the world. Okay, there's no one who's better than me. That is my full belief. Most of

Captain Coach (02:08:23.701)
That thirty percent.

TrqstMe (02:08:48.655)
the people in rank believe that too. So I have the pleasure and the advantage that every single tank player I have in my team who respects me, which is a lot, fill for me. So I never have to fill. That is something a lot of people don't have. That is also a cheating the system in some sense. You know, which is not fair.

Captain Coach (02:09:03.733)
Yeah, that's very true.

TrqstMe (02:09:05.175)
It is not fair to the main casual player base. So going back to that logic, it is valid to think EOM is real. The reality is though, because there is no opportunity to learn and every answer can be right and wrong at all opportunities and all all things in the game, it does feel like that. But it's only a feeling. That's what I think. And I as well maybe have the advantage of like not needing to believe in it.

Lyte (02:09:28.621)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:09:34.095)
Because it feels because I don't need to.

Captain Coach (02:09:35.635)
Okay, s can I ask one more question? I just wanted to know what your advice would be for for people then who who aren't willing to do aren't willing to, you know, go like turn on their mic like and communicate with everybody or look at the whatever tracker site. Is it just just get good? Sure.

Lyte (02:09:36.46)
Yeah, I'd like to respond. Yeah, good.

TrqstMe (02:09:49.997)
It it is different skill sets. There's it there can be any skill set. It can be like one of my skill set is getting the people to do whatever. And first I have the advantage of being a pro, right? So a lot of people in my rank respect me. Right? So I have more people that will vote for me. I have some people on my team, you know, that will say, Okay, it's trust me. You know, some people will like double down on the opinion and say, Okay, you should swap you should s like yeah, right? Some some people get that. Okay. Exactly. Wait.

Captain Coach (02:10:00.191)
Yeah. It's really interesting. Like

Captain Coach (02:10:10.239)
I get the opposite that happens. That's a disadvantage for me. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:10:11.787)
I I think I think it I think it I think co coach, I think you create your own ELMM sometimes. I'm not gonna lie

TrqstMe (02:10:20.011)
One one second, right? I have that I have that benefit where I can say, Okay, can you swap four? and then someone else will speak up for me and say, Okay, I do think four's not good here. You should listen to trust me because it's trust me.

That is a benefit that I have. That's a skill set that can be gained, but also there's a skill set that can be gained in a different way. If you're more knowledgeable in the game and you try to explain the people your reasoning, maybe in one of the third cases that wins your game, they might actually believe you and do the swap you want. Then the problem is because you haven't learned the proper way and you don't know everything about the game, that might lead into them not being successful. And then you once again have to break down to them, okay, why is this not working? Why is this

Working, so it becomes this habit of like where is the limit of what you can reach with the person's mentality? Because if you breach too much, they will be throwing. So it is very hard. It is a part of a skill set, and unfortunately, people don't want that to be part of the skill set. It's social engineering is part of winning ranked games, and that makes people feel like EOM is more real. Because social engineering is a big part of winning games, it starts with

Coach Mills (02:11:18.005)
So social engineering. Social engineering. It's a lot of yeah.

Captain Coach (02:11:19.977)
Yeah. No, that's profound. That's very pro like.

Coach Mills (02:11:29.035)
Yeah, I mean any any one person can throw your game. I'm any one person. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:11:31.694)
Exactly. It starts

Captain Coach (02:11:32.383)
I I can't disagree with this. I I can't. Like it's it's no, it's yeah, no, I mean I'm I yeah, yeah, go for it.

Lyte (02:11:39.32)
Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to respond. Yeah, I think like everyone, like everyone should operate under the assumption that it's not real because it will lead to the most self improvement. Now that doesn't take away from the general feeling of like the nature of the matchmaking being terrible and like why I've been a sponsor of it is has been like

Coach Mills (02:11:40.885)
Yeah, go for it.

Lyte (02:12:04.568)
How do I word it? It it's kind of been like like propaganda in a sense of like

The matchmaker k in this game, compared to any other game that I've played, more consistently, feels like it's out of my hands, regardless of the mindset that I adopt. Now whether or not my perception is actually relevant to the accuracy of EOM's existence, doesn't actually matter. I think a lot of people have the similar feeling to where I do, where like a lot more games than other games that they've played in the past feel out of their hands, regardless of the mentality that you approach it from.

And I think like a lot of things that they could do to remedy this issue are things like removing double bands, being more harsh on people who are toxic and throwing. Like I know for example, I don't even bother reporting people, like like I've sent Neti's clips of people actively calling me the N word. Like I have it in four K. I've sent them clips, nothing happens. Ever. Same thing with like like cheaters are allowed to cheat on ladder for eight plus hours, nothing happens. Like I literally had a game thrown two days ago, some guy just threw my game 'cause I was black. Like

Coach Mills (02:12:49.195)
Agreed. I agreed.

Lyte (02:13:10.274)
You know? Like that's not something that like everyone has to deal with, of course. And that doesn't happen all the time. Like that's very rare. But like stuff like that doesn't happen in other games. Like at all. If you type anything wrong in league, Instaban. Like you're just timed out. You can't type in like I could tell someone to kill themselves in Fortnite. Over and over and over again. Just drop the Fortnite part. I can't say that on Twitch, but like you get what I'm saying. And nothing will happen. And like this type of behavior is like allowed and like that being harder on like people who are really toxic

Coach Mills (02:13:32.191)
Right. Right.

Lyte (02:13:40.184)
throwers, racists, like all this type of stuff will make the experience feel better and all that contributes to this feeling that the matchmaker is a miserable experience.

Coach Mills (02:13:40.779)
And I I a hundred percent agree with all this. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:13:51.941)
That is all true. That is all true. But then the same thing can also be true, which is the problem that who decides who's a thrower? At what point someone is throwing. And that's where it actually becomes that is actually once again where the opportunity to learn is just too tight.

Lyte (02:14:02.27)
yeah, no no no no. That's that is true. Let me clarify on that. 'Cause that's important. Yes. I'm talking about the people who pick Spider Man and actively run off the map. Like very, very clear, it's objective, this person's throwing the game, not bad play. Yeah, like

Coach Mills (02:14:17.451)
Right. But I mean th but those those people would very quickly probably turn into something that's more akin to soft throwing the second there the rules change, you know? It's hard. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. No, I agree. They should do it a hundred percent.

TrqstMe (02:14:25.903)
Those people, yeah, exactly.

Lyte (02:14:26.124)
Yeah, I mean maybe, but that's that's a de incentive for them. Like that's like annoying. Like they'd rather just get the game over with fast. But if they have to like like balance yeah, like I literally like bro, every single day I'll drop ten, twenty games around there, if we're not scrimming more, 'cause I'll get to play more. And like at least five of the twenty games I'll play, someone will pick Angela and speed blitz off the map. Like I you know, like

Coach Mills (02:14:50.859)
Right.

Lyte (02:14:51.244)
Or we'll just win the game in five minutes or we'll lose in five minutes. And those are the types of games, trust me, where it's like I want to have this mentality of

TrqstMe (02:14:56.429)
I get it. But what is the what is the limit? Because I will tell you something. I have thrown lots of games over the past of the year. Have I done so that many times? Probably not more than anyone else. Okay?

I am one of the most consistent players when it comes to rank. I know a lot of pros that throw a lot of rank games, but do they do it less consistently than other people? For sure. Can you argue from a p professional opinion, if I play with Captain Coach and he's on hook and he's not playing the way I want, he's not enabling the team, he's consistently making sure we that we have less resources in the fight by the way he plays, is that actively throwing the game?

Probably in my opinion it is. So that is the point that I can validly argue from because I have a different perspective of the game. Now that becomes complicated once more if you look at it from all the perspective, because how do you judge it properly? Because everyone has a different approach to judging. I have to use you as an example here because I I see that you have a hook profile picture. Okay, listen. Listen, bro, this is nothing personal. We get the point though.

Lyte (02:15:55.49)
Yeah. Yeah, a hundred yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Coach Mills (02:15:58.848)
Yeah, yeah. Well he is it they one one of the things I think I think I don't know if y'all agree with or not, but I think that Rivals doesn't treat its competitive format all that competitive. Like they they don't really hold people to high standards. I mean, you talk about like I'm not gonna lie to you, like there's a ton of pros that just throw games with no penalty, no no nothing. and we've seen like

Captain Coach (02:15:59.317)
No, you're good. You're good.

No, you're good, man.

TrqstMe (02:16:11.695)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:16:24.925)
Even in Overwatch, we saw very strict penalties for players that would throw or do things. Like there were there were players that when they they they they said keep yourself safe and they got they got fucking banned in pro matches because they said that. Or they get fined or they get banned from throwing games. Like they get actual penalties that they actually care about. But like it doesn't really feel like competitive oftentimes is actually competitive. It feels like quick play plus. It doesn't feel like competitive.

Lyte (02:16:47.288)
Yeah, I bro, I can't imagine. I c bro, you could you could pick Spider Man on any pro team, run off the map fifty times, if you do that on Overwatch you're getting fined a thousand dollars and banned like a we like and that's

TrqstMe (02:16:49.795)
I I a hundred percent agree.

Coach Mills (02:16:56.595)
Yeah, yeah, or you're getting banned in the next Ignite tournament because y like why why aren't pros held to like a standard that like ever but but it's not just pros, like everyone should be held to this standard. Like you have to try. You have to at the very least try. You can't just run it down or say a slur or do any of this stuff.

Lyte (02:17:02.338)
That's what I'm talking about, trust me, when I'm talking about throwing, it's yeah.

TrqstMe (02:17:04.079)
Yeah, well it

Lyte (02:17:09.228)
Yeah. It's not a matter of like how is this person it's not a matter of like how is this person using their cooldowns or they throwing the game based on this metric, blah blah blah. Like this is like very, very clear this person is running it. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:17:17.751)
It is it is super valid. It is super valid. The thing is, I go back to it, right? Pros will do it less frequently, but of course they should be role models. Right? Because you you underestimate how many people throw. Right. And as I said, the the defining term of throwing can lead to different outcomes. As I said, throwing in my opinion already means I have a four OTP and when I tell him to switch, he's not switching, he's throwing in my opinion. I will report him.

Coach Mills (02:17:27.819)
A hundred percent.

TrqstMe (02:17:43.845)
That is something that is my that is my mentality line that where I draw it. Now the question is where do people actually will as you said right where is the line for pro players to like where's the line for pro players? Because one bad game for one pro player, now it can be we have infinite pro players in the scene, right? Most of the pro players play for full passion. I am one of the fortunate one that don't even make that much money, but I make enough to have a living. Okay?

Lyte (02:17:44.078)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:17:44.446)
I mean I mean I I mean I have fucking I have I have fucking

Captain Coach (02:18:03.775)
Yeah. I mean

TrqstMe (02:18:13.829)
Most of the pros or all of the pros don't make more than five K. Five K is the the salary that one team only makes. Most of the teams make three K less or like not even, right? Only the top sixteen teams make more than two K. I don't know how much you make, Light, but I'm I'm

I'm going to I I mean I probably know. So it is like that. It is a full passion project, you know. So if that is the case, you know, why should there be so much professionalism be held towards pro if the aca accountability is set with such a low standard for them in the in the first place? If there's not a lot to lose.

Coach Mills (02:18:52.713)
All all I'm all I'm saying all I'm saying it there's someone that will take your spot that's more professional if you're not. I'm just saying. Like like it it's a competit it's a competitive

Lyte (02:18:53.324)
It's kind of the sacrifice.

Lyte (02:18:57.75)
It's it's kinda the sacrifice that we have to make, trust me, is like Yeah, like like even though like we don't make like, you know, crazy amount of money, like you're gonna make way more money doing anything with your life, or being a content creator, but it's not about the money for most of I know it's not like that for me, like I make I I it's not a secret that Nightmare would pay less than Navi or that like I make less from pro play than you do, especially with like your tournament winnings and stuff like that. It's like

TrqstMe (02:19:00.069)
Yeah, it's a passion anyway, right? Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:19:11.878)
Ha ha ha.

Wait really?

Lyte (02:19:25.92)
I do it because I have a very, very strong passion as a competitor and I like really believe in myself that if I grind hard enough and work hard enough I can be successful and you know, you don't get another opportunity to compete in esports in in your twenties, you know, like whenever I get older it'll be

TrqstMe (02:19:43.086)
And now now you said all of that. Cause now I'm coming to my point. Now you said all of that. Now you play five hours of scrim. Okay? You have one hour of review. You play four of the scrim. You get shit on by, I don't know, sentinels for four hours in a row or or hundred feasts going Iron Man in Scrims, like not taking you guys serious because you're NTMR. I'm using you as an example, okay? Now you go into ranked, okay, and at one point you limit a street because you care, you wanna win.

You don't wanna waste your time when you play ranked, okay? At least I don't.

Okay, I treat it like that. I wanna win, I go and ranked, I see a four OTP, I try to convince him because I'm getting counter swapped, as you said earlier, right? They just went Dino Groot. Dino Groot is objectively better than Dino Four. Okay. So now you're in that position where you will tell the four, Okay, I can't handle this, I'm just not going to care, I'm just going offline. And that is then the throwing point. Where now you are the thrower, but originally the four would be the thrower. So we have a very hard way to define what actually is throwing. The same way

That many people can't define matter, same way many people can't defy when something is good. The variety, you know, the bands, the networking that leads into it, what makes throwing, what doesn't make throwing, the breach of the mentality you can take people to, you know, by asking them, okay, can you swap? And like if you ask too harshly, they will throw. Like all of that caters to that, and it sucks. That is that is the sucking part.

Coach Mills (02:20:52.041)
Right. Yeah.

Lyte (02:21:06.06)
Yeah, I don't think anybody disagrees with you, bro. On yeah.

Coach Mills (02:21:06.111)
I think well I I I I think we agree, but it I think we're running into the same thing about like debating about EOMM and the clouds. It's like let's look let's find what we agree. Like let's find the things that we all can agree on instead of like like I do agree with you that that's really a great area, like the throwing and the pros and stuff like that. But you know, the things that have happened to Light and ranked and the people that have thrown his game because of all those reasons, like that's obviously like those people should be IP panned, permabanned, on a list, never allowed to play ranked again. Right. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:21:30.147)
Yeah, that's yeah, there's also stuff like that. There's also cheating, you know, cheating should be IP banned. But then again, right, they cheat from a from a center in like India, and now all the Indian people that want to play from the center can't. That's like also a valid argument for them to not IP ban that. So it's it's there's like multiple problems connected to certain stuff.

Coach Mills (02:21:36.478)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Coach Mills (02:21:46.161)
Right, right, right. I mean y yeah.

Lyte (02:21:52.386)
Yeah. I don't think anyone disagrees with you, trust me, on like like throwing being obscure and like how do you define that? I think that there are very clear cases and those are the ones that we should focus and isolate on or isolated on. But I do think that everyone in this call and everyone in the community can agree that stuff like double bands has to go. what like like harsher harsher punishments on people who are super toxic or like objectively running off the map, fifty fifty deaths per ten on Spider Man. That has to go.

Coach Mills (02:22:08.603)
It's yeah, it's it's so frustrating. Right.

Coach Mills (02:22:15.113)
Yeah. Like like it should be like a three strikes. Like if you're if you're if you say like very offensive things like more than three times, you should just lose for a year. You can't talk in comms for a year. I don't care. Like if you're not gonna say anything that's yeah, right.

Lyte (02:22:26.87)
Yeah, like like just make it very harsh. Like if you're a pro player and you're caught like running off the map fifty times, like it's not up for interpretation, like you you just are fined, you know? Like make it like Overwatch. I think that'd be very, very good. All the other stuff where you could argue like like the more obscure the system is plotted against you and forcing you to lose like all that other stuff, it doesn't matter if that's the case or not. Like if you're a good enough player you can get to a high rank like trust me, like SaiPay,

I'm sure there's like a ton of other players who are like Shravery, for example. I'm pretty sure he's rank one right now. And he when he was playing before, he was always high rank. Like Tap back in the day as well, he had a bunch of accounts top ten too. So like you could definitely overcome it. It's just a matter of like let's focus in on the stuff that is objective first and fix those issues first and then see how it feels. And then we can go from there. I think that's the common ground, Mills.

Coach Mills (02:23:16.501)
Right. I I a hundred percent agree. And I I as a philosophy I like I like it when we work on all the things that we can agree with and then like we can like as a community have the same opinion on something. 'Cause it's more likely that Netties does something if there's an opinion that we agree on, rather than us like trying to go straight to the controversial stuff and just like battle and debate on this like stuff that like then the then when Netties looks at that, it's not just like a hundred people saying the same thing, it's a hundred people saying something different and then it's just like they're just gonna do nothing, is what they're gonna do.

Lyte (02:23:33.912)
Yeah. And

TrqstMe (02:23:43.676)
I swear, like I feel bad sitting in the car with him. He looks so red in the face and so angry all the time. He's about to crash out at all of us. It's actually going to happen. I know it. I swear he needs a different filter or a different lighting or something. No way, this is the real face. This is legit hope in real life.

Captain Coach (02:23:56.476)
I'm waiting. Here it goes.

Coach Mills (02:23:56.684)
It's it's part it's part of the it's it's his it's his it's his brand, okay? It's his brand. Yeah, yeah, it's his brand. It's his throw

TrqstMe (02:24:04.567)
It's not only Hulk in game, it's also Hulk in real life. Look at him. Really?

Captain Coach (02:24:05.416)
sir.

Captain Coach (02:24:10.401)
Well I did I I I do think it's fluid. Like I I agree. I I think like obviously if you flame somebody in in lower ranks for not strange portaline, like in bronze, I mean they're probably right.

TrqstMe (02:24:12.954)
okay.

Coach Mills (02:24:14.441)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:24:22.239)
I mean, I I don't have a problem with flame like that. Like that's not the flame that I think that we should stand against at least. Like like I don't care flaming is fine, but like, yeah.

Lyte (02:24:27.118)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:24:27.965)
Yeah. But w what the the point I wanted to get to though was I I I think for me personally, like you can't really blame the player for like, you know, for like a throw when they're just getting to the rank they got using the same system that everybody else did. So and then that comes back to just like balance, which we already kind of went over and like making things more skill expressive. So I think like we we agree on definitely a lot of things. do you think the game's too rock, paper, scissors, trust me?

Do you think it's two rock paper scissors where it's just like pick like I mean

TrqstMe (02:24:59.173)
mean if if you have that many bands then the game becomes very rock paper scissors yes. 'Cause as I said, right, the the skill set is legitimate and the one way to avoid double bands in general is to stream snipe the opponent in their band phase. That is one way to bypass that problem.

And it becomes part of the skill set, unfortunately. If you don't do it, now the po opponent will have a natural advantage. Will it outweigh the entire match? No. It's like five percent of it. But the five percent stacks up in every area you have it. Five percent can be anywhere, in the matchup, in the draft, what you play, where you play, w how you act, you know, to your team. All of these little things can stack up percentages. And then it will result in an outcome that will be either favorable or less favorable, depending on

Captain Coach (02:25:15.265)
Yeah 'cause

TrqstMe (02:25:44.879)
the rule I said earlier, right, with the sixty six percent. Or like one third of the time you always lose, one third of the time always or you always win, and one third of time you decide the outcome with your performance.

Captain Coach (02:25:56.181)
Yeah, I mean it's it's why I've been kind of just in my content just been preaching balance to me is I I just want everything to get a little closer, a little like even if it means homogenizing things a little bit, just so there's kind of some semblance of like there's less parity between things that are good and bad. And that's why like, you know, like on this podcast, we we always talk about the balance. It's the number one thing. I think we all hold it on like a pedestal is like the most important thing. And I'm just in my head, I just can't stop thinking about rocket.

as like the buffs he got, to me, one of the the lowest skill ceiling character in the game gets to a maybe a rank where he becomes less useful, but you have situations right where that like someone could just only play Rocket, get to a very high rank because of of how uninteractive he is, and then all of a sudden like he gets banned or someone goes Phoenix. And then now you're you're stuck in that game where the game quality just feels terrible.

And I think if they could figure out ways to just tone that down a little bit instead of going in the opposite direction, I t to me that's what I'm looking for for the game's future when we talk about like balance. So I guess it wasn't really a question, but we got anything else?

Coach Mills (02:27:09.397)
Yeah. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:27:09.871)
No, it's it's it's a valid point, you know, like Rocket right now is second best character to Gambit, you know, like why when Gambit is banned, people play Rocket, there's a reasoning for it, you know, is because it's harder to dive. Do you have a respawn beacon when your Luna gets dived? You have more room of error to abuse in that moment. You your ultimate is very strong to burst the tank, right? As we said. So talking about that, right, and it's a low skill ceiling hero. So where does the actual

impact come from what light wants, right? Because if you play rocket and enemy play rocket, how do you outperform the enemy rocket? And then it comes to what I said, right? You gotta now have maybe more effort in networking with your team. Because your character does less. So now now networking becomes significantly more important, which will maybe make your experience worse because you don't want to do that.

Lyte (02:27:51.874)
You get on the Skittle stall spots. Like

Coach Mills (02:27:53.812)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:27:54.474)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:28:03.087)
when now it becomes more important if you play a different hero or you have Black Cat and Didi open, now networking and being more flexible might not be that big of an issue because you can avoid that step because you have a different win condition now, you know?

So that actually becomes less of a skill set now. So it kinda and every single game you have is going to be different because w every pay and every band phase going to be different. You're going to have a different team every single time. You're going to have different players. You're going to play in a different matchup. And now everyone has to act accordingly in the right situation to make it working. And it's going to be very hard.

That's what it is. So the overall ranked experience feels bad because of that reason. Cause no one has opportunities to learn. Cause you can only learn with what you had a have at hand right now. And if you use other people to learn from, they're different their op their opinions going to be different than what you have. Like as I said, right? Most of the people right now listening and as I said, one skill set is stream sniping the opponent, you know, in the band phase, that is not an option the plat players or diamond players will have, you know.

Because there's not going to be streamers or they don't know about them. They don't know about the the way how to counter swap people. So you have to have some kind of different skill set in each rank as well. And like as I said as well, you also don't have the opportunity of telling people to swap and people will like agree with you and say, Okay, you trust me, I will swap. I'll like tell this guy to swap as well, you know, and get on the same page with him. That is something you guys don't have. So that you have to have a new different skill set and like maybe networking becomes even more important important. And knowing how to talk

Talk to people psychological-wise. As hard as it sounds, that is part of the skill set at that point if you play rocket. Because what big of a difference can you make to the enemy rocket if it's not about re placing the rest beacon better, placing the ultimate better, or like having a better lineup for your right right click, and most of the skill setting is just not going to be in your control. And that's fine.

Captain Coach (02:29:55.861)
Now is that we're gonna I'm gonna bring it all around here, is that form of balancing a game viable for a long term competitive esports scene?

TrqstMe (02:30:05.615)
That totally depends on what the community wants. Right now the community, as I said, I made a tweet. I had so many death threats, it's insane. Like I I can't believe

Lyte (02:30:14.478)
What? I haven't even gotten death threats on my tweets.

Coach Mills (02:30:14.485)
Ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (02:30:16.857)
No, but I I got them, right? Because they said you're shit pro, you know, you're shit pro, your opinion doesn't matter. and I said Dino is unhealthy for the longevity of the game, right? I said it in day in in vi in day one, right? It was unfortunate unfortunate timing, right? No, it it wasn't engagement day, it was my general opinion. okay. No, I'm I'm saying, right? It it happened. that that is a different tweet though.

Coach Mills (02:30:18.232)
Not yet. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Lyte (02:30:20.11)
No, yeah.

Lyte (02:30:27.7)
right.

Coach Mills (02:30:30.195)
Yeah, I I retweeted it. I was I was engagement baiting v yeah yeah. no. No, no, no, no, no. I responded to you with an engagement bait. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:30:42.613)
Yeah, yeah.

Captain Coach (02:30:42.667)
There you go.

Coach Mills (02:30:46.281)
No no no no no no it was an early it was an early tweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Captain Coach (02:30:46.541)
wait, that's the wrong one. I did get the wrong one. I'm sorry. There you go.

TrqstMe (02:30:47.213)
That's the wrong one. no what I was what I was referring to, right, is that I said dyno wasn't playable in a playbase. It's a low skill effort hero. It it makes the gameplay very miserable because it's not up for you to decide. And as I said, most of the games I win is not because I picked dyno and I outperformed the enemy dyno, it's because I make the team work better than the enemy team. Because I have better networking skills when I play the dyno. When I play Cap in example, I outperform the enemy.

So it shifts.

It the dynamics shifts to some extent and that is part of the skill set what makes a player better. Is that consistency in understanding when what is important. And that balance might not be healthy for the longevity of the game, but right now the the players want a casual community. So it is what Lights also said. Characters that are harder to play should be better in the game. And I agree to that take as well. If you want a longer longevity game, characters that are easy to play shouldn't be better than characters that are

Captain Coach (02:31:46.719)
Yeah, I

TrqstMe (02:31:51.928)
harder to play just because I also value skill set in the game and being better on the characters you play more valuable than networking in the game and as I said if you play Rocket versus Rocket most of the skill set comes outside of the game

Captain Coach (02:32:09.621)
Yeah, I I mean I I think that's something that a lot of players are gonna be reluctant to hear. Light, did you did you wanna give your closing thoughts? So then w we're gonna ask you both, what hero release do you wanna see added to the game to close it out? I I Coach Mills he's dying of allergies over there.

Coach Mills (02:32:24.415)
Yeah, I I actually am. I don't know why. Yeah, I'm just getting my ass kicked.

TrqstMe (02:32:27.149)
Is it late? I swear this is going on for la very long, but it's good. I

Lyte (02:32:27.181)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:30.304)
No, no, I just I I just have bad allergies to whatever. I don't know. The air. I just

TrqstMe (02:32:34.318)
I get a

Lyte (02:32:34.594)
No, it w it's it's just great to have a com to have common ground on a bunch of stuff. I think

TrqstMe (02:32:38.489)
Yeah. I mean I I think it was a good conversation, a good talk overall. I don't wanna too stretch it too long. I also know that I took a lot of time, you know, and I maybe have overspoken to a lot of you guys and I wanna apologize for that. Okay.

Coach Mills (02:32:48.159)
No, it it's it's your first experience to our audience. So like, you know, they've heard all of our takes but they've never heard yours. So it was it was really good. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:32:49.761)
It was very unique perspective. Yes.

Captain Coach (02:32:57.205)
No, I really appreciated your point of view. It was definitely different than a lot of things we have heard on this podcast and very realistic too, which I did not expect coming from someone who's like found your success in like the highest levels. You know, it's it's it's been very different from even like like content creators to other like pros and and it's it's been definitely been unique.

Lyte (02:32:57.528)
Yeah.

Lyte (02:33:17.9)
Yeah, it's really it's really nice to have a podcast like this where pro players are given the opportunity to bridge the gap between us and and casuals. 'Cause casual players, like I imagine, aren't like super, super into pro player streams. Like the most popular rival streamers are not pro players for the most part, like SaiPay, T T K are the the exceptions of course, but like Flats, J three, so on and so forth are like the most popular Somju and I could go on and on and on. and so this like actually gives us the ability to like tell casual players like we don't

TrqstMe (02:33:23.344)
Yes.

Lyte (02:33:47.554)
Hate you, we don't not think of you at all at our tanks of the game. we understand where you're coming from a lot, it's just we play this game for a living. Eight plus hours every single day, and you don't. So like we probably know what's better for the game than you do. It's like I'm not going to go into a I'm not gonna go into NASA's rocket facility and tell them how to build rockets, you know? Like I like space, it's cool, but I'm not gonna tell you how to build the rocket. Like that's your thing, you know?

TrqstMe (02:34:05.273)
Yeah, it's it's hard, right? Because

TrqstMe (02:34:16.581)
But the problem is the pros also don't know mon s most of the time. Because you just said like what you would want fixed, but again that would cater only to a certain part of the community. Right? What I think Okay. Okay.

Lyte (02:34:26.188)
Yeah, okay. How about I say how about I word it real quickly? How about I word it? We are more likely to know better than a casual player. That's a better way of putting it. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:34:31.629)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I I can see that. Yes. We are more likely to catch on faster to stuff.

Coach Mills (02:34:36.991)
No, I agree. Right, right. Okay. I I know Captain because you said that we wanted to ask them about what hero they want in the game, but I actually wanted to ask something similar. I wanted to ask, trust me in Light and I think I might have already asked you this, but I'm asking you again. From a different game, what ultimate or ability do you want in Rivals? I know you played a lot of Overwatch, trust me, but you've also played other games. Like if you could ping any ultimate ability, you just br drag that into Rivals. What what what ability or ultimate would it be? Any game. Any game at all.

Lyte (02:34:39.17)
Yes. Yeah.

Lyte (02:35:02.914)
from any game. I think I think Mordekaizer's ult would be awesome. It'd be really toxic at cancer. But it'd be cool. It would be cool. Like are we talking healthy or cool? 'Cause just cool would be Mordecaizer for sure.

Coach Mills (02:35:10.761)
Yeah Welcome to the Shadow Realm, yeah. Well, I mean I mean I mean the game is not gonna get any healthier, I'm not gonna lie to you. So you might as well get cool. Like you might it might as well be fucking cool as shit, because it's not getting healthier.

TrqstMe (02:35:11.439)
Now that cage for all that cage for

Captain Coach (02:35:13.697)
Mm.

TrqstMe (02:35:20.613)
Ha ha ha.

Lyte (02:35:22.348)
Yeah, yeah, then then Mordechizer, like banish.

Captain Coach (02:35:23.541)
You know who you know that would that'd be Professor X and his little the mind psychic, he like traps you in his head. That'd be sick.

Coach Mills (02:35:28.991)
you take him into the realm and then in it and then in the realm he's standing and he's fucking like kicking your shit in. You know.

Lyte (02:35:29.983)
Yeah.

Lyte (02:35:36.78)
Yeah, I just I really like these maybe this is like different from like an ultimate ability, but I like these characters that are just like very, very big, masculine, like just walk at me and you die type of characters. And I think that we're missing like this character that just like points at you and like you're dead. Like right I guess tank pool. But tank pool's like super goofy. Like I just want like like a Mordor Kaiser character in this game. That's kinda why I like Daredevil so much.

Captain Coach (02:35:36.981)
Read Scarlet Witch too.

Lyte (02:36:05.108)
Is his like his whole aesthetic and design and like his voice and the ult and everything is just awesome. I want like another cool factor character like that.

Captain Coach (02:36:15.963)
yeah. I'm waiting for Thanos and beter at Bill would be cool.

Coach Mills (02:36:16.469)
Hell yeah.

Lyte (02:36:21.377)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:36:23.359)
What about you trust me?

TrqstMe (02:36:23.588)
I also

I also wanna say one thing. I I I don't demean casuals or anything like that. I train my brain specifically to wire differently when it comes to like how I approach learning in the game. Like many people like as I said, I trained it specifically to like make sure I get everything possible to be able to play and perform better in the game. Many people don't have that wire in their head, but they can they can train that, you know, but many

people don't want to do that. So it's also no shame in doing that. Okay. I just want to make that very clear. Like when I talk to people I I don't want to demean them for being low rank or anything like that. Because I said sometimes shit plates, you know, shit shit low elo MRC players, you know. Well I don't mean it like that, you know. They're obviously putting in effort and they care, you know, and if you truly care and you have passion, you're fully allowed to live out your passion. Obviously it's your your choice. You know

Coach Mills (02:37:07.526)
Ha ha ha.

Ha ha

TrqstMe (02:37:20.207)
so I also don't wanna like say that. Second, what I would want, and I I used to be a huge lover of Realm Royale. That w that game was so good. Like it's a very, very old game, but yeah

Lyte (02:37:32.521)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:37:32.859)
Romeo yeah yeah yeah. I love ro watching the old school DeFren streams on Womr Rome. DeFren was fucking farming the hell out of everybody. my god.

TrqstMe (02:37:37.389)
Yes, yes, the friend Realm Real. I used to like play against him, you know, stream snipe him. I I was one of those guys. Okay, listen. Listen, I we talk a bit too much about it, but I used to do that, you know, and then you kill him after you die to him five times, you know. that was a feeling. You died to him five times because he was just infinitely better. What I would want is I would want the ability from the assassin with the like grenade that you throw in to boop someone up in the air and then you get like a one shot sniper, you know? That would be so cool.

Coach Mills (02:37:45.211)
let's go.

Coach Mills (02:37:52.275)
Let's go ahead. You got that you only clipped the one I got to go.

Captain Coach (02:37:52.595)
It's all starting to make sense.

Captain Coach (02:37:57.323)
So I starting to make sense.

Coach Mills (02:38:04.473)
and then you can headshot them. yeah. You could boop 'cause you can boop him he can use it to boop himself, right? And boop the enemy up, right? But either or I I I actually love of abilities once again, decision making abilities. It's like you can use it for mobility, you could use it to playmake. Like that's cool.

TrqstMe (02:38:07.293)
And as an ultimate, you know?

Captain Coach (02:38:08.137)
Like Widow Kick. Widow kick.

TrqstMe (02:38:11.791)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like a displacement ultimate.

Lyte (02:38:14.882)
I think

TrqstMe (02:38:18.905)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a character I would want.

Lyte (02:38:22.21)
I think a Sojourn ult type of type of ult would be cool too. There's not one of those yet. I w I would like to see them add more more DPS where the ultimate is like an upgrade to the base kit like Magic or like Iron Fish like Daredevil. I think those are really, really cool. And they're much more interactive and it there's like a lot more skill expression from the player as well. Like when I play Psylock and I ult, there's like zero skill other than like the timing and positioning. Or like Starler, there's zero skill except the timing and the positioning.

Coach Mills (02:38:24.905)
No I fucking hate Sojo.

Coach Mills (02:38:47.221)
I want like a a fast moving projectile character that is very momentum and bunny hopping based. Like think of like the old like Quake arenas, like where you could like shoot the ground and like just bounce and bounce and bounce off. Like it what if you could bounce off yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you could bounce off of walls and you could bounce off the ground and you can you don't take damage from your own guns or like very little and like I think it'd be really sick. or if anyone's played Tribes Ascend, that game was peak, like crazy mobility.

Lyte (02:38:55.595)
yeah. Yeah, like grenades, yeah. Pi paste pot peat maybe? Yeah.

Lyte (02:39:08.973)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:39:15.455)
You guys were giving me ideas last week when Paz said to you to have like parts of the map you could interact with and like be a part of. I was just I I I was just I don't know why. I'm just it coming to my head right now is is like the the jutsu from Naruto is Shikamaru, like the shadows. It's like moving around the map like in on a two D plane and being able like pop out and I don't know I don't know if that would be a character.

Coach Mills (02:39:23.439)
like like yeah, like yeah, that's sick.

Coach Mills (02:39:36.255)
okay. wait, going going in the ground though, like as a shadow would be sick. I don't know who that would be, but Or like on the wall.

Lyte (02:39:42.562)
Maybe maybe instead of like a mortal you could I think there there should definitely be a tank that has some type of like their ult is like I'm taking this space and locking you in with me. So like a Camille or like what's the the n Jarvin, yeah, or like what's her name? Aur Aura Oriella Aurora, Aurora.

Coach Mills (02:39:54.771)
Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:40:02.622)
Yeah. You ca you could also trap you could like trap a support and like if they wanna commit the support ult to keep themselves alive, like they're not protecting their team. But like you're out of the fight too.

Lyte (02:40:11.148)
Yeah, like let's say you jump on them, you ult them, the ult pushes everyone else away, like out of the radius. like let's say like a twenty meter push, and then it creates like a field where there's a barrier and in order to like do anything you have to go into the barrier, but it's like a sew ult and like when you go into it you're slowed and you can't be shot from outside. And it's just like you and the tank.

Coach Mills (02:40:31.893)
Wha What if what if when you go into it you can't leave? Like y yeah, like that'd be sick. Yeah, yeah. Like a dome. Yeah. Be really sick.

Lyte (02:40:36.514)
Yeah, or something like that. Like any type of like dome type of mechanic like that, I think this game is missing. And that would be really cool. Don't make it doorman. Doorman is the corniest yeah, it is just the corniest piece of garbage of all time. No one likes Doorman.

Captain Coach (02:40:42.763)
Please just don't make it like doorman alto. Don't make it doorman.

Coach Mills (02:40:45.061)
Captain Coach (02:40:50.111)
I forg I started I started playing deadlock by the way, light way I wonder if you could guess my main I b I I don't it's high skill ceiling. It's your hint. Nah, nah, nah, nah.

Coach Mills (02:40:50.728)
Ha ha ha.

Lyte (02:40:53.826)
Yeah.

Lyte (02:40:57.976)
It's not Okay, so it's not Abrams, it's not Mokrill. Thank God. is it like that type of like bruiser type of character?

Captain Coach (02:41:05.993)
Well yeah yeah, I guess now you yeah, you kinda build them that way. Yeah.

Lyte (02:41:09.878)
I haven't played Deadlock in months, so if a build changed. Let me guess though. so it's not Shiv. It is Shiv? Okay. Okay, that was gonna be my next guess. Yeah, yeah.

Captain Coach (02:41:11.111)
Yeah, yeah, go and guess.

No, no, it is ship. It is ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was that was a good guess. Good guess. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I love ship. I don't but I I'm not like crazy about deadlock, but you g you you were one of the people who were talking about it and kinda convinced me to give it a try. And then I I I probably have like over a hundred games on it now. So it's it's been fun.

Coach Mills (02:41:17.533)
Hey yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Lyte (02:41:32.322)
Yeah, it's definitely a different it's a different flavor. I just I don't like MOBAs. I can't I don't know. My brain is too I need dopamine now. I like the the faster pace of the games. I like the constant team fights. MOBAs are just like you have to constantly build up your power every game. If someone else misplays somewhere, you're punished harder because they're like you could basically create a monster on the other side of the map and then regardless of how you played your lane, he just comes over and just puts you in a coffin and like a body bag and it's like, alright

Coach Mills (02:41:40.831)
Yeah, you're yeah. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:41:58.419)
Yeah. Yeah. That was the nice thing about rivals.

Coach Mills (02:41:59.487)
Yeah.

Lyte (02:42:01.849)
we lost.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:42:05.159)
but trust me, where can people come and support you if they wanna watch your content, if they wanna follow your your streams or your content? What what do you what do you want to promote?

TrqstMe (02:42:14.467)
I mean Wah, I don't know. Like if I wanna promote anything, I I think there's a f a few things we can agree on. First, pro players need to be better role models, okay?

We need pro players to be more more engaging towards the casuals, more inv inviting, more being approaching to learning them, and also being accepted, being refused and like being denied. Like I also can't handle well after eight hours of playing the game to have s some random Celestial two tell me you're wrong. You know, I can't handle it well.

You know, it's true. I tell him, bro, you suck, get out of my game, you know? And then I have multiple people supporting me and it will be a miserable experience for him, even though, you know, he is definitely in the wrong. Because I would be theoretically correct, but it's not the the right approach. Right? The right approach needs to be I need to be a better role model, I just have to suck it up, go next, and just act accordingly.

Coach Mills (02:42:53.169)
Ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (02:43:16.261)
Does that happen all the time? Definitely not. It needs to be towards that. Second, we need better content creation in this game. We need better content creation. We need help from Neties. They need to give us a workshop that we can bring more casuals towards the game. We need to make fun, i interactive YouTube videos, you know, with new kinds of idea. Maybe geo guesser in the game, maybe some quiz shows in Marvel Rivals that pull in some casuals, you know, have more people do interesting podcasts, talk about the game, you know.

Upgrade that current. Upgrade that current. No, no, you guys get it. More, right? I'll not you guys to think about the competition. I get it. No, but you guys get it, right? Like more competition also means more people to cater towards, right? Largening that player base is a good basis. And now we come to what I would promote is

Captain Coach (02:43:47.325)
Slow down, slow down.

Coach Mills (02:43:48.907)
No more no competition. We're good. We're good here. We're good. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:43:55.661)
Coach Mills (02:43:58.685)
Yeah, yeah yeah.

Captain Coach (02:44:00.395)
Course.

TrqstMe (02:44:09.259)
I wanna fill that gap of analysis because I think that's been lacking. I think a lot of the knowledge in the game is being forgotten because it doesn't matter, because you can bypass a lot of knowledge with like in-game stuff. You can bypass a lot of knowledge by avoiding problems, by skipping the problems, by banning stuff that you don't want to play against, and you don't have to face your brain to challenge that. And that's fine, but if people truly care about getting better, I wanna host a a passion project university because I can't handle it

coaching. I have sixteen people asking me for coaching every single day. You know, they I I can't handle that. I I don't have enough time. I can't do individual coaching. So I wanna create a subscription based university where I will teach the game of what is the most important, a routine they can follow to get better, what is important as a skill set to have and acquire and how to use like the game to their advantage rather than just being at the disposal of the game most of the time.

So that is what I would promote. That that will start happening hopefully soon. I'm building the website right now with a friend. So it will depend, it will take time. But that's what I if you allow me to promote that and you can come out if you okay.

Coach Mills (02:45:19.395)
yeah, of course. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:45:19.935)
Of course, of course. Well, where can people find you? Like on X? Do you wanna like when you post that and announce it?

TrqstMe (02:45:24.887)
yeah, you can just search up trust me and you will find my name. Like with a cue, like in the okay.

Coach Mills (02:45:28.819)
Gotcha. Gotcha.

What what what about you light? wha where where can people find you?

Lyte (02:45:36.398)
light PK on all socials, live every day. Thanks for watching. Thanks for the support. Thanks for having me on. It was a pleasure, guys.

Coach Mills (02:45:39.957)
Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. And and then next time I Lex next time I raid you, it better not be a fucking rerun. God damn it. I literally I literally I lit I literally I literally got I got I I got hosted by two people right when I was about to end and I was like, ooh, I got a lot of viewers. Let's bring him to light and he's fucking rerunning and I'm like, God damn it I just rolled up with like a hundred and fifty people and you were just not there. It was funny though. Of course. That was cool. That was sick. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:45:41.697)
Well yeah.

TrqstMe (02:45:42.523)
Yeah.

Lyte (02:45:47.662)
thanks boys.

Captain Coach (02:45:48.775)
I did that too, actually.

Captain Coach (02:45:57.057)
Lyte (02:46:03.318)
I appreciate it. I appreciate it though, Beast. yeah, thanks for having me on boys. Trust me, it was a pleasure to talk to you. It's great to get like a perspective from a top row as well. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:46:03.522)
TrqstMe (02:46:10.096)
Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you so much for inviting me, and I'm so glad it wasn't before the block. Like I if you guys can tell the viewers the story or like show it DM here, I was completely lost. I I thought I thought this was like seven hours ago. Next time I'll know. Alright. Peace.

Coach Mills (02:46:10.899)
Yeah, thank thank you so much for coming on, trust me, and and thanks for coming back light.

Coach Mills (02:46:18.185)
Yeah yeah yeah.

Captain Coach (02:46:19.712)
huh.

Lyte (02:46:23.574)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:46:23.933)
No, no No, no good. All right, well thank you, thank you. See y'all next time.

Captain Coach (02:46:28.127)
No, you're good.

Captain Coach (02:46:31.861)
Bye.

Lyte (02:46:32.034)
Peace boys. Thanks for watching.