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"Imposter syndrome isn’t just a moment of self-doubt — it’s all-encompassing. It prevents founders from taking action, from taking a risk in the first place."
This week, Dr. Julie Gurner shares with me how high performers combat the challenges founders commonly face. She’s a performance coach and Doctor of Psychology. We’ll talk about dealing with imposter syndrome, burnout, how to deal with the avalanche of advice on Twitter, and why it is so hard for founders to cope with stress.
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/dr-julie-gurner-founder-mental-health-101/
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/dr-julie-gurner-founder-mental-health-101/
The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/bb3e42ca
You'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com
Newsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletter
My book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/
My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/
My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.com
- (00:00) - How common is Impostor Syndrome?
- (02:42) - How social media can impact your business
- (08:00) - Vulnerability is not just a means of sharing negative feedback
- (13:33) - Diversity & Building in Public
- (17:54) - How to avoid falling into the Impostor Syndrome
- (22:35) - The importance of taking incremental steps
- (26:29) - Optimizing your business
- (32:18) - The importance of meditation
- (37:15) - The importance of having a routine that you enjoy
- (44:02) - The problem with the word "expertise"
- (47:43) - The importance of confidence in entrepreneurship
- (51:07) - Incorporating philosophy into your own life
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Bootstrapped Founder?
Arvid Kahl talks about starting and bootstrapping businesses, how to build an audience, and how to build in public.
Arvid Kahl: Hello everyone and
welcome to The Bootstrapped
Founder. Today, I'm talking to
Dr. Julie Gurner. She's a
performance coach and a doctor
of Psychology. We'll talk about
dealing with imposter syndrome,
burnout, how to deal with the
avalanche of advice on Twitter
and why it's so hard for
founders to cope with stress.
Here's Julie.
Our first interaction on Twitter
was a pretty interesting one, I
feel. I said that imposter
syndrome will never go away and
you vehemently disagree. And I
immediately thought, I liked
this person. And here we are
having a chat. So let's start
with the ever so controversial
imposter syndrome and in the
context of founders and
creators, what is it and how
common do you think it really
is?
Dr. Julie Gurner: I think that
imposter syndrome can be common,
but I don't think that everyone
suffers from it. So when you do
say that, you know, you see on
the internet, it's very common
that people will say things
like, nobody knows what they're
doing. Everybody is just, you
know, and I don't really feel
like that's an accurate
representation of everyone. I
mean, I hope that your surgeon
knows what he's doing. I really
hope that your attorney knows
what he's doing or she and I
really do feel as though people
understand their seat of
expertise. And that it is, it's
fun to say, but most of the
individuals that I would say
that I work with, they do
understand their seat of
confidence. And the thing that's
fascinating about impostor
syndrome to me is that it
requires confidence to exist,
right? If you actually don't
know what you're doing, you're a
novice and that's perfectly
okay. If you're someone who is
intentionally deceptive, then
you perhaps are an imposter. But
imposter syndrome really
requires that you have the seat
of expertise. And that, you
know, you are somehow misaligned
with understanding or seeing
that seed of expertise. So, I
mean, I do believe that it
exists and that it is fairly
common, especially as people are
working their way forward when
you're talking about
entrepreneurs and creators and,
you know, early stage founders.
But as things move forward,
people begin to discover more
and more about what they can do,
about who they are, about what
their potential is. And you
know, from taking small risks,
they begin to develop a lot more
confidence. So I do think it
exists. I think it exists more
in earlier stages or with new
ventures or with new leaps. But
I don't think that it can never
go away. And I certainly don't
believe that, you know,
everybody suffers from it. So
that's my general take. And I'm
glad that we had that exchange
on Twitter because I think it
really gives opportunity for a
deeper dive and discussion on
this.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, what I found
very interesting in researching
this topic a bit more in
preparation for this. And
generally, because I wanted to
understand it better, is it's
not a recognized disorder,
right? It's not a disease. It's
not something that is
diagnoseable. But a lot of
people self diagnose it and
consider it as something that
they are afflicted by. And I
always wonder, is it just like,
a version of self doubt? Or is
it something that an extension
of that that goes deeper?
Dr. Julie Gurner: That's a great
question. I do think that there
are a lot of different possible
routes, right? I do think that
for some people, it is around
self doubt and confidence. I
think for other people, it can
be around things like, you know,
anxiety, stress, feeling and
being kind of hypersensitive to
you know, social judgment,
awareness and things like that.
I think also, at its core, for
most, it's around, it involves
some type of thinking pattern
that tends to be off of it that
they have an evaluation of what
an expert looks like. And it
varies from who they see
themselves being. So for
example, if you're a new
founder, you look around and you
say, oh, you know, this person
just raised their A or you know,
they're really successful, they
have really great traction. And
so we make these assumptions
about that person, that like,
oh, they knew exactly the path.
They, you know, had it all
mapped out in advance. So they
have some secret expertise and
that somehow they are falling
short of what their perception
of other people are, when in
fact, you know, most people,
whether on social media or
otherwise are presenting their
very best self. They're not
saying hi, my name is Tim and I
struggle with X, Y and Z. And I
really almost made a big mistake
last week and you should have
heard about that, you know, so
nobody starts off that way. We
all lead with our best foot
forward. And so it also creates
this mismatch between what we
perceive reality to be and what
it actually is.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I always
consider social media to be the
place where other people present
their highlight reel, only the
best thing, right? And you
compare it to your full lived
experience, which is there's
obviously a discrepancy there
because you're missing the part
that they don't show unless they
are actively trying to balance
these things. A lot of people
who are building in public and I
really wish more people would do
this building their business in
public. They share the
vulnerability as well. They
share the losses, the failures
too in a kind of ex post facto
situation where they talk about
it as it has, like shown some
sort of consequence. And then
they deal with that, right? It's
not like in the trenches, often,
hopefully, people are busy on
actually doing the thing that
they want to do even if they're
failing.
Dr. Julie Gurner: Yeah. Well,
you know, it's interesting, you
and I would probably disagree on
building in public because I
feel as though building in
public is something that opens
you up to come more second
guessing, more hesitancy, more
social feedback. I think that
that is a double edged sword. I
think you can gain a lot of
support. But I also think that
it opens you up. I remember when
I was first beginning, people
would make all sorts of comments
about the types of work that I
was involved in. And, you know,
if I would have gone deep into
that or I would have kind of put
myself out there, I think that
you know, people smell blood in
the water and they love, love to
dive in. And it's a way of
feeling, I don't know if it's a
way of feeling superior. I mean,
or it is a way of kind of
asserting some type of power.
But on social media, I think
that you face a lot of
individuals who feel they know
best but have never built
anything in their life. And so
we listen to unreliable
reporters about what our product
should look like, what our
company should look like, how we
should operate. And I think we
do that all the time, sometimes
because they have a large
following, sometimes because you
know, they just say it with
great assertion and authority.
But I often feel like building
in public can be really
challenging for certain types of
people. And I also feel as
though when you do that, you
have to be very cautious about
how you do it, right? So sharing
the general like, this is what
I'm up to, this is what I'm
doing, very cool. But you will
rarely see people who are kind
of larger operators saying,
well, you know, I'm working on
this deal. And we're having this
conversation. And this is how
I'm approaching the negotiation.
And you know, the minutia and
the details are where people I
think can face incredible
criticism, start developing
hesitation. And ultimately, it
can be something that ends up
taking them in the wrong
direction.
Arvid Kahl: I actually fully
agree with you on this, like,
the idea of building in public
to me and many people are quite
naive. They think like, I have
to share everything. It's like
oversharing in many ways, right?
What you could do in social
media. What is also quite
harmful in many ways to the ego,
obviously, if you share
everything, people will always
find something to latch on to
and destroy, which is, I guess,
why we have to teach our
children to use social media
responsibly, right? To
understand the implication of
oversharing. But I think
founders, they have a sense of
what is too detailed. And it's
funny to actually see this in
the data. Because if you track
companies, over time as they
share, you will see that at a
certain point around $20,000 of
monthly recurring revenue, that
seems to be the switch, they
turn off the details. They share
only general direction at this
point because now all of a
sudden and that's something you
just alluded to, the details are
the potential points of
interference. Like if you share
the deal with that company,
somebody might just sweep in and
offer a better price, right? It
doesn't really matter if it's
just yet one more customer that
pays 10 bucks a month or
something people won't go into
that much of an effort to snatch
up customer. But if it's a five
figure deal, whoo, yeah, that's
not something you share until
after you actually close the
deal.
Dr. Julie Gurner: Absolutely!
Arvid Kahl: So there's a kind of
a modal change. People approach
building in public differently
after it actually is a risk to
the business to share. And I
would say that it is very
important to understand that
vulnerability is not just like a
means of just sharing everything
negative at the same time,
right? It can be an intentional
choice to be vulnerable with
this one thing and still not
disclose the other things that
you also struggle with, right?
It's not a one size fits all
approach.
Dr. Julie Gurner: I love that.
It's very tactical and it's
very, you know, you approach it
with a lot of intention. And I
think maybe that's the real
difference between sometimes
what you hear people saying and
what you see kind of people
doing which can sometimes be
very disruptive or challenging
for them.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, generally I
think, you have to understand if
you are on social media as a
consumer, that what you see is
put there intentionally
everything, right? Even people
who share whatever comes to mind
do that with the intention of
building a brand that a person
that shares everything that
comes to mind, right? There's a
meta layer on top of this. Yeah,
I love the idea of making it
very clear that building in
public is yet another strategy
of talking to your audience to
your potential customers or your
founder peers or whatever. It's
something that I really think is
interesting because it gives
people the chance to get
feedback loops, right? You set
that yourself, you get feedback.
I can share a story here because
I wanted to, I almost wanted to
share interrupt you earlier with
it. But I don't do that. So
here's that story. I wrote my
second book in public. And it
was a very interesting thing
because I invited 500 people as
a beta reader for that book and
managing the feedback of 500
individuals that read your book
and comment on every section
that they may like or not like
or think needs a tiny little
change. There was like the worst
herding of cats that I ever had
to do in my life. It was
bizarrely complicated to just
understand is this something
that matters to me? But it
certainly matters to them, but
doesn't matter to me that they
thought this phrasing is a
little bit off. And the good
thing in this egard was that
quantity informed me as well. So
I used a tool called
helpthisbook.com, which was
written by Rob Fitzpatrick, the
author behind the Mom Test,
which is an interesting book in
itself for customer feedback and
customer conversations. But he
built this tool because he
wanted to write other books. And
then he essentially you put your
manuscript and you invite people
into the tool. And they can mark
certain passages and say what
they didn't like about them. And
as an author, you see all of
this overlaid on top of each
other. So if you have 500
people, you see people like 10
people said this section is too
so. 100 people said, I don't
understand the section. You
really see the quantitative data
of what people think. And I
think that's the most
interesting part about building
in public, not the individual
feedback. But the quantitative,
like, how many people do talk
about this? Is this something
that really matters?
Dr. Julie Gurner: What I
absolutely love about that and
why is that nice is that it's an
incredible experiment. It's a
kind of, for somebody as
yourself who does talk about
this, you know, kind of upfront
and all the time, I found, you
know, I released that newsletter
Ultra Successful on substack.
And so when people give feedback
on that, I'm always fascinated
to know what resonates, what
doesn't, what do people want
more of, what do they want less
of? And oftentimes, I'll run it
by other people that I know and
say, hey, what do you think of
this? But the thing that has
been most challenging for me is
that I would love to have a heat
map. I would love to know where
do people spend the most time.
What are the areas that they are
really kind of absorbing? And so
with your books and kind of
putting things out in public, I
wonder also, you know, getting
500 people for feedback, if you
were able to expand sections, if
you were able to really kind of
go deep into some areas really
kind of bring them more of the
content that they wanted. And it
ended up kind of making the
entire thing better at the end
of the day.
Arvid Kahl: That's kind of why I
did it. And that's how it worked
as well. So the first script
was, I think, a quarter of the
size of the final version of the
book just because I was still
writing. It was the whole idea
like to have people involved in
the process. But the areas where
people said, great, this is
something I care about, those
were the areas that I spent way
more time on than the others.
And the consequence of this was
just, it's obvious in retrospect
but I wrote the book for the
people who wanted to read it the
way that they actually wanted to
read it. Like that was something
that I never considered as an
author, like you think, okay, I
have all these thoughts and I
can put them into this shape and
I deliver it to the people, but
that's really not what it is.
Like, you asked me what do you
want to know? They tell you
like, here are the three things
I really care about and then you
write about them. And then of
course, they will buy the book
like it's very much an audience
centric or a customer centric
approach to the conveying
information. It's weird that
this is not the norm. I feel
like when I look at fiction,
which is probably different, but
I read a lot of Brandon
Sanderson like the fiction books
that he writes a lot of fantasy
novels. And he has a beta reader
squad of like 20 people. And
then or yeah, probably less than
that and a couple of alpha
readers and then some obviously
editors and proofreaders. He has
a continuity team, which is
interesting, but doesn't matter.
You know, like, he doesn't have
that many people to read his
fantasy books. So I think if one
of the most prolific authors
that is selling millions of
books has a team of beta readers
this small, are we under
utilizing the capacity of your
audience to tell you what they
like and don't like before they
buy your book?
Dr. Julie Gurner: What I think
is fascinating is I read a lot
of philosophy. So we're very, I
was a philosophy minor in
college. And so I think about,
like there was an educational
philosopher called Paulo Freire
and his philosophy was, you
know, we all come in as teachers
thinking that people are empty
vessels to be filled. And that,
you know, that's how we approach
it right here I am to impart my
wisdom upon you. But in truth
every person sitting in your
audience brings their own unique
lens, experiences and you know,
into play. And so for me, when I
hear you tell that story, it
makes me think about all of the
people in your sphere or in the
sphere of the science fiction
writer who, you know, they are
coming together over this one
variable, but they're bringing
such diversity of perspectives
and interests and people to the
table that have unique
histories. And so where there is
overlap there, clearly, I think
he would assume would be large
scale overlap. And then, you
know, kind of where things are
not resonating may be very
individual. But I do see even on
social media, people have the
belief that, you know, I'm gonna
put something out there because
everyone's an empty vessel
willing to be filled. But if
you're able to see your audience
and other people out there as
unique as you are, you
understand that they have, you
know, criticisms and things that
they like and don't like and
things that resonate and don't
resonate. So I love the fact
that you think about that so
deliberately.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's also
why I'm such a big fan of
building in public because
that's essentially the
formalized version of that,
right? It's sharing your story
with each other with your peers
who have definitely overlap.
Like, the whole thing about the
imposter syndrome thing that got
us talking was that this is, in
some capacity, a commonly shared
experience. People have self
doubt, right? No matter what you
call it, people particularly
founders doing a thing that has
never been done before in this
particular way, they will
wonder, am I the right person to
do this? And, oh, I feel like
this is too much or am I a
fraud, fraudulent? Like, is this
something that I'm just acting
like I'm doing this and I
shouldn't be? Like this kind of
talking about it in public in
the community, I feel is
enabling people to find common
ground to see other people
experiencing similar things and
thereby not feeling as bad about
their own emotional upheaval in
that moment, so.
Dr. Julie Gurner: It's
interesting because I think we
have to parse out moments of
doubt from imposter syndrome,
right? A syndrome is something
that is all encompasses a lot of
things. Whereas a moment of self
doubt, I think that people can
experience you know, you even
have a very large scale, you
know, person who has this moment
of self doubt before they sign
the contract, before they do a
particular adventure. But you
know, when you talk about
impostor syndrome, the thing
that is so damaging about it is
that it often prevents taking
the risk to begin with. It
prevents asking for the raise if
there's someone who works within
a startup. It prevents, you
know, kind of asking for more
equity. It prevents effective
negotiation. It prevents them
from being effective, I mean,
even in their own relationships,
right? So imposter syndrome,
when I think about that it's a
syndrome is really kind of much
more all encompassing than those
brief moments where someone
goes, yeah, I doubted myself for
a second there. And then I was
really back on pace. I mean,
that's how I would think about
healthy and effective
functioning is that people do
have moments of self doubt. But
then they kind of push at their
edges. They have a positive
experience and then they gain
increasing confidence. People
who have imposter syndrome often
will not take the chance to push
it that edge then they hesitate.
And you know, the thing about
hesitation is that it creates an
increasing lack of confidence,
right? It completely erodes your
ability to trust yourself.
Because then as you are
hesitating and not moving
forward, you watch your peers
moving forward and taking those
chances. And then they look even
more effective and you look even
less effective. So there are
kind of even if you aren't
comparing outward, you see
yourself stuck in the same
place. And sometimes, you know,
literally years will pass and
you have the same idea that you
wish you could bring to fruition
or the things that you wish you
could share and you're not doing
it. And then eventually, those
are the individuals who will,
you know, stuff that down into
the side and just kind of never
kind of move forward on that.
And that's an incredibly
challenging burden to bear and a
way of seeing yourself that will
impact many other things in your
life.
Arvid Kahl: It's quite a vicious
circle, right? Like this kind of
self denigration, what I found
in many people who I've talked
to many, many founders who
experienced something like this,
they feel isolated. They isolate
themselves from their peers who
are so much smarter, so much
better, so much faster than they
are. And then as a consequence
of that, they then feel unable
to accept praise and recognition
either because they feel like
they're not deserving of that
because compared to all these
other people, they don't make
the progress that they would
like to make. And that then
feeds back into this loop. Like
what would be a good way for a
founder to either completely
avoid falling into this thinking
loop or at least find a way out
of it? Do you have any
suggestions?
Dr. Julie Gurner: I think that
when I think about that, I think
about people you know they're
I'm not a big fan of push. I
talked about this a lot. I'm not
a big fan of push. I'm a really
big fan of pole. So I think that
there are only certain times
that you should really push
yourself. But I do think that if
you're in a situation where, you
know, kind of you're in the
loop, I think there are a couple
of things to do. One is to
challenge your assumptions
because often they are not based
in reality, right? Like, a lot
of times when a founder will
tell me something like, you
know, they are having these
sorts of doubts about themselves
that are more all encompassing,
I'll say, well, can you get and
usually they'll make self
statements that are somewhat
derogatory. And I'll say, well,
can you give me the evidence for
that? You know, I would love to
hear the evidence for that. So
somebody who is, for example,
absolutely incredible in their
technical skills telling me that
they cannot do X, Y, or Z or
they don't feel they're capable
of doing X, Y, and Z when
they've done something that is
far more complex. So, you know,
like, forcing yourself to look
at the evidence is sometimes I
think, really interesting. I
think limiting comparison is
also incredibly important, that
everybody's journey is going to
be different. And I know that's
a really cliche and terrible
thing to say, but it's true,
right? I mean, we see that. And
I think also the media gives us
a very false picture of what
success looks like. In fact, you
know, with founders, they always
look at the outliers. So they
look at people who are 20 and 30
years old, when in truth, you
know, the majority of founders
we know, statistically find
success in their 40s, right? So
you have a lot of time. And, you
know, you gather a lot of
expertise in that time. So I
would say you know, a few
things, challenge your thinking,
see if it's factually true
evidence, is this actually
accurate? Limiting comparisons,
I think is really important. And
also, this is one of those times
that I would say, push yourself
to do something that's at the
boundaries of what you think is
in your purview. You know, if it
feels like you're doubting
yourself a little bit, do it
anyway. And if it's at that edge
and you end up with a win,
that's going to start to build
your confidence a little bit.
It'll start to disprove some of
these theories you have about
yourself, but if you never take
the chance to disprove the
theory, you hold the theory. And
so you know, like, that's a very
challenging place to be because
then you you're locked, you
don't move. So oftentimes, you
know, set up a challenge for
yourself. You know, I'm going to
make this one call. I'm going to
get in front of this one person.
And it actually fulfill that
promise, it can be something
very small, but just move the
needle a little bit and prove
something different to yourself
because that begins to fuel
other motion.
Arvid Kahl: I like that,
incremental steps forwards. And
Dr. Julie Gurner: Oh, no.
then yeah, what I've noticed I
do the same way, I don't do big
Arvid Kahl: But I don't mean
this, like in a lazy way. I just
feel like I have more control
over small steps along the way,
things. I don't try not to do
big things because they, too
much work.
right? Small steps, cumulatively
building the bigger thing over
time. And it's always easier to
look back and see like the steps
from which you've come. And like
if you had only the big thing
and you look back and you see
nothing happened. I'm still
trying to work on this big
thing, right? It's kind of a
self sustaining way of small
iterative steps. That's how I
approach my work, too. But this
is apparently and I'm super glad
you mentioned that, like this
glorification of the outliers in
the space. I don't think that's
the only thing that is
glorified. Because if there is
one word in our community that I
detest, it's grind set. It's
this approach, like this hustle,
kind of 80 hour workweek
glorification that we see like
people who work, work, work,
work, work all the time. It's
like the work hard, not smart
kind of approach, which is super
strange. How can we prevent
ourselves from comparing
ourselves to these people that
glorify this and try to throw
yet one more hour at the project
instead of one more thought to
make it cost us 10 hours less?
How can we get there?
Dr. Julie Gurner: I think the
baseline I look at, well, what's
Arvid Kahl: I guess a lot of
people, a lot of founders would
effective, right? If you are not
sleeping, if you are in it, like
you're going to work. It's funny
because if you approach your
work when you are tired and I'm
sure many people in your
audience have done this, right?
You're so tired, you're trying
to pull in these longer hours.
And it literally takes you if
you have to even respond to an
email, it will take you 15
minutes to respond to an email
that if you were well rested,
well fed and on your game, that
email is three minutes max,
right? So by working tired, you
are literally extending your
working time. So the more you
can be well rested and kind of
take care of yourself, the more
effective your working hours
are. So the shorter they can
become in some ways, but I think
we have to be realistic. You're
not going to build a business.
There are like a lot of ways in
which I think it's important to
look at the realistic demands of
what a business requires. And
also know that you are the most
important asset of your
business. And you have to treat
it that way. If this was your
top engineer, you would treat
that person like gold or at
least most people do. So you
mean you are the driver of all
things. If you want to make the
most effective decisions, have
the most productive workday be
able to operate the fastest,
make the best kind of calls
moving ahead, you've got to be
in a certain zone. And so it
benefits you and your company to
operate within that zone. So
that's why I kind of I look at
things like I mean, I understand
people have to put in longer
hours than they'd like. And I
understand that it's going to
take more from you than you
probably want. And that
like to really optimize many
things in their business but are
sometimes it's going to be
boring and sometimes it will be
dry. But at the same time, being
able to say okay, I'm going to
make sure that I get at least
between seven and nine hours of
sleep. I'm going to make sure I
move my body at some point
throughout the day, go for a
walk, do something that you will
be able to respond to your
emails quicker. You'll be able
to get back to people faster.
You'll have better ideas about
strategies moving ahead. You'll
have a clearer head. We know
that when people are sleep
deprived, for example, at some
points, they can operate
similarly to intoxication. Like,
that's not how you build an
effective company. So you do I
mean, you want to give yourself
every single advantage you can
so why not leverage biology? I
think that that's an important
way to think about it and to
think about yourself too around,
you know, just being the most
important asset of your business
and how you want to care for that.
too stressed with recurring
things that are going on in the
business. Again, another vicious
cycle, right? But people are so
in so deep that they can't even
detach and look at the bird's
eye view for an hour because
they're always in the trenches.
I experienced that with my last
business with Feedback Panda,
that I fortunately sold right at
that point, right? It was great
that we had built a business to
the point where it was valuable
enough for people to want to buy
it. And I was the sole technical
founder in the business, we were
just, my girlfriend and I
essentially ran the business and
that we had 1000s of customers
and I was the technical person.
It was a anxiety inducing just
to wake up in the morning
because what might happen today.
Is it gonna break, right? And at
the same time we had the other
stress level of this is the only
valuable thing we have because
we both didn't have much money.
So all our essential wealth was
locked into this business that
if I didn't perform, might just
break away. And that was
incredibly stressful. And I
wonder, do you have any
strategies, actionable, tactical
strategies for people to get
distress and anxiety under
control, so they can zoom out
and start optimizing?
Dr. Julie Gurner: I think that
you have to build in time for
what is important, right? So you
know, they say that, you know,
your calendar reflects your
priorities. So what are the top
priorities in your business? And
I think sometimes what I ended
up seeing are that people spend
so much time in the fires that
they aren't doing the things
that actually push the business
forward. And it's because you
feel like, you know, I'll do
that later. I don't have the
time, you know. So you know, Kim
Scott talks about this as well,
she's great, who wrote Radical
Candor. You know, she talked
about, you know, building in
strategy time or think time. And
I'm a really big fan of that,
that like, if you are a founder,
part of your job is really
thinking about the strategy
moving ahead and building
processes so that things begin
to operate more smoothly if you
can do it. And so, you know,
along with funding and all these
other things that are also your
responsibility, but you will
never have time to see a clear
path forward if you do not
create the time to do that
strategizing, to do that type of
work. So I will always advise
people to say, look, give
yourself if you can 30 minutes
to an hour to just work on
strategy, work on the things
that will push the levers that
will push the business forward.
And to make that sacred time
you're not responding to
messages, you are not on email,
you do not have 40 tabs open,
you know, like you actually kind
of shut down those
notifications. And you say, all
right and you put something in
that slot, right? Like, I'm
gonna think about customer
acquisition strategies and I'm
gonna put that on my Tuesday
hour slot. On Wednesday, I'm
going to think about, I don't
know, building something with
onboarding or whatever wherever
stage you're at and you know,
depending. So it is really
important that you spend that
time and that you make it
deliberate and that you make it
planful and that you take it so
that you can push things
forward, whatever stage that
you're at. And if you're
somebody who is, you know, kind
of further along, making sure
that you're finding ways of, you
know, I think about founders as
a journey of pulling yourself
away from these kind of roll up
your sleeves aspects of the
business increasingly so as you
move forward. And so to me, I
see founders who every six
months, their job looks
different. You know, it always
looks different as they move
forward. And finally, you know,
you get people who now they're
finally at the point where
they're making, just making the
large scale strategic decisions
and worrying about funding and
you know, some of the very
30,000 foot view places and you
finally get to a point where it
feels a lot better. You deal
with problems and other things.
But I mean, that's a nice place
to be at and it's earned. So I
think in the earlier stages
building in that time is
incredibly important.
Arvid Kahl: Do you see a lot of
mindfulness and self reflection
routines and founders who are
tackling these things? Because
I've been journaling for quite a
while, particularly in those
moments where it was very
stressful. I took 30 minutes,
just train of thought
journaling. And that really
helped me just like clearing my
mind allowing for, you know, my
thoughts to figure out their
place. Is this something that
you see?
Dr. Julie Gurner: It's not
something that I see commonly. I
wish I saw it more. So I think
that you have, that was a great
practice that you incorporated.
I do encourage people as they're
moving along, I call it like,
just like playing tape. Like,
you know, if you're playing a
sport, you always look back on
the plays, whether they're
successful or they're not so
successful. And you say, okay,
what did I do right here? And
how can I repeat that? And what
did I do that wasn't really so
fantastic? How could I run this
better? How could I have done
that in a better way? Not that
you sit in it. I never want
anyone sitting in problems or,
you know all of those things,
but to kind of notice it and to
be intentional so that you're
not repeating the same mistake
over and over again. But at the
same time, also looking at the
great things and saying, like,
hey, why did that meeting with
so and so go so well, this time?
And it was because oh, it's
because I asked about this or I
connected with, you know, this
person around that. And it
really like changed how we
interacted with each other or
positioning. Whatever it happens
to be, I wish people were a bit
more intentional. I think that,
you know, your example is a
really good one. If you have
that kind of awareness and
you're able to say, okay, this
has been a really stressful
moment. I'm going to kind of map
that out and write that down.
But I don't see it as often as
one might anticipate. I think
they're so busy. They don't
think I can stop for a moment.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's exactly
the problem, right? Because it's
a matter of priorities, like
people, I feel any kind of self
care for the longest time before
I met Danielle, my co founder
and partner which she's the best
person I've ever met.
Fortunately, she introduced me
to what I would have described
as esoteric stuff at some point,
right? I would like anything
that was written with
spirituality or self reflection
meditation, I was like, yeah,
yeah, that's for those other
people. And I'm not a regular
practitioner of this at all. I
situationally, I use it, but I
found it to be an actual tool.
And that like understanding that
it is a tool for the mind that
all of a sudden fit the concept
well into my engineering brain,
right? Because I'm thinking of
tools and algorithms and
strategies. And understanding
that a meditation state can be a
reflection tool or journaling is
essentially the Empty Trash
button of your mind. Like,
putting it into a way of
understanding it from an
engineer's perspective, all of a
sudden open it up to me. And
that reprioritize it in my mind
because I understood that if I
take care of this, my mind, then
what my fingers type becomes
better, right? And what comes
out of this, the code, the
product, the relationship with
the customers, the amount of
money that we make, whatever the
goal of the business might be,
that is a direct consequence of
me spending time on the very
first thing, which is the brain.
So it's this reframing issue for
many people. They don't
understand what it actually
means and in which context they
can integrate it into their busy
founder lives.
Dr. Julie Gurner: No, you're
right. And I think that people
have to kind of approach this in
ways that resonate for them. You
know, a client that I had, who
was incredibly hard driving
incredibly, like, successful guy
would always take an hour every
day to walk around New York City
with a cup of coffee, right?
Like that was his ritual. That
was how he meditated, you know,
if you're gonna say meditation,
but he would just, you know,
take that moment, take that
walk, walk around the city,
think, not be attached to his
phone in it like that was the
way in which he grounded himself
and really, like kind of got rid
of all the other stressors. So I
think people have to find a way
that works for them and not
everyone's going to connect with
everything. I think sometimes we
try to do that, like people will
say, oh, this is my morning
routine and it's like, meditate
and I do this and I do that and
it's like this five step morning
routine. If it works for you to
just have a cup of coffee, take
a break, read the paper, if it
works for you to just go for a
walk, whatever works for you.
You know, do that thing because
I can guarantee you that you
know a lot of people who reached
these really high levels don't
have those morning routines.
They really don't. They do what
works for them. Some of them are
not getting up early at all, you
know, because they don't have to
anymore. And maybe other people
on their behalf are getting up
early. And that's really a nice
place to be at. So I do think
that sometimes we were trying so
hard to find the things that
work that we're trying to fit
into a box, that isn't the right
box for us. And we have to
really create our own that's
going to work for us, that's
going to make us feel great and
is going to put us in our best
place. Because when you're
trying to fit into these other
people's boxes and it doesn't
feel right and it doesn't feel
good, that's another way of
making yourself feel terrible
about yourself, right? Like, oh,
you know, all these people are
talking about cold baths. And I
hate that. And personally, I
hate that, honestly. I don't
really think that it's a test of
mental strength to stand in an
uncomfortable shower. I mean, I
can't do uncomfortable things.
So I mean, there's a lot of
things that you can choose to
do. But to not put that kind of
pressure on yourself to do the
things that work for you. And
you know, everyone's going to
find their own way. When you
look at people, whether it's
Steve Jobs or anyone else that
people tend to idolize, the
thing they all have in common is
that they are, you know, kind of
relentlessly themselves. I mean,
they don't fit in other people's
boxes and that's what makes them
stand out. So if you want to be
that kind of person in the
future and maybe not your family
life, but if you want to be that
kind of person in your future,
you know, an innovator, a kind
of a large scale, successful
founder, recognize that all of
them do it by being themselves
and really like drilling down in
that. And I hope that people
feel free to do that, too.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that would be
wonderful if people would
understand that it's not the
exact thing that these idolized
celebrities are doing. But the
fact that they found a thing for
themselves that works and then
they made a process out of it.
That's the thing you should
imitate. When we're thinking of
Steve Jobs, that is a great
example, I feel. Like his whole
turtleneck and jeans thing.
Obviously, you're not going to
be a better founder if you wear
a turtleneck and jeans. You
might because it might be almost
a meme at this point. But the
fact that he found such a
productivity shortcut in his
life that this is good enough
for me. I can now take care of
other things. That's the thing
to imitate, right? And it starts
with meal prep, that's the thing
that people do, right? Or just
having a routine that involves
something that you would like to
do enjoy anyway, which I do a
lot of thinking while I walk my
little puppy dog. And every
morning, she needs to get up for
some reason. And then at seven,
we need to go out because
otherwise she's gonna yell at
me, might just as well. And then
on the wall, I get to think
about what my day is going to be
like, what are the things that I
would like to talk about today?
What am I writing about, right?
Like, am I having a
conversation? And what would I
like to bring up? So that is the
routine that just comes out of
my own reality that is very
subjective. And I don't think
somebody else should get a dog
and take a walk with her or him
just to come up with things,
right? It's the unique situation
out of which these processes
arise. And that's the thing, the
quantifiable stuff is what
people want to see, right? They
want to see, oh, I need to do
this to get this result. And
that is already dangerous with
productivity advice on Twitter,
but it gets extremely dangerous
with mental health advice, which
is why again, harkening back to
our initial conversation, these
topics, they are so potentially
destructive to what people
experienced in their own lives
and how they deal with it. And I
think it's really because all
advice is essentially anecdotal,
right? Like what we have in our
lives is what we experience. And
we come up with all kinds of
justifications and reasoning for
why this happened and how it
happened. And then we share that
and other people think, okay,
that's the truth out there. So
maybe let's talk about advice a
little bit, maybe in the mental
health space. Is it dangerous to
even talk about this stuff at
all? Like, do you have this
feeling too because sometimes
it's just like, oh, should I
talk about this?
Dr. Julie Gurner: How so are you
thinking about that? Could you
give me more detail?
Arvid Kahl: Well, let's just say
I talk about dealing with
burnout, which is something that
I have been experiencing twice
in my life. Once, while I was
working for a venture capital
funded business in San
Francisco, great work, like
super enjoyable. We had a ping
pong table and everything. But
it was kind of work 6 days a
week, 12 hours a day. And that
got me to a point where I stood
outside the building that we
were in talking to people crying
on the street. That was where I
was. And I felt, huh, that may
be a bit too much. In that
moment, it's like wait, am I
just doing my job and crying at
the same time? Is that where I
want to be? And then I
experienced again, like during
Feedback Panda at the end of it
because I was the only person
all the responsibility and we
had a lot of integration
problems with all the providers
that we were trying to support.
There was a lot of stress there,
but I noticed it that I was
getting into that state again
and then I took the necessary
steps to help facilitate the
sale of the business, let's just
say that. So now I could talk a
lot about burnouts from my
perspective. But all I could
talk about was, again, my
perspective, my two instances of
this particular event. So I'm
asking you as an expert, should
I talk about this? Is it
something that helps people? Or
is me talking about my unique
perspective actually dangerous
to what they might be
experiencing right now?
Dr. Julie Gurner: I think
there's two parts to your your
question, really, to me. And one
is that I think that sharing
that is as beneficial as I think
it's beneficial in that people
will understand that it's not
just them, right? When I'm
feeling some of these things. I
think also in burnout,
specifically, a lot of people
don't recognize it's happening
until it's already at a very
advanced place. So you're
standing outside crying and you
recognize like, this is not a
healthy thing. This is really
not where I want to be. You
know, the early symptoms are
kind of stages of burnout is
like, first, you start to get
more cynical, right? Your
attitude changes about your
work. So like, there's all these
like little tweak things that
like, you start to, if you can
be aware of them, you can
notice, but I think it's helpful
for people to periodically be
open and candid about the things
that they've experienced if
they're at a place. And this is
a terrible qualifier. But if
they're at a place where they
can be vulnerable with their
experiences, right? I mean,
vulnerability is really only
accepted once you've gotten to a
certain place, you know and
that's a terrible truth. But to
me, it's something that I see is
that, hey, if you are a
interviewing for a tech job and
you talk about all the times
you've been burned out, it's not
going to work out well for you.
It may be true, it may be
vulnerable. But if you're a
founder and you've had an exit
and you're somebody who is in a
place where you can now talk
about that and it doesn't, you
know, there's no kind of
negative blowback to that, I
think the sad thing about some
of these discussions is that
oftentimes, it's positioned by
the wrong people as weakness.
And that can hurt you in areas.
Like if your whole, I feel like
you've talked a lot about some
of these mental health struggles
and then you go to raise
funding, for example, you know,
that isn't, I mean, as much as
people will say the right words,
oftentimes, that does impact how
people perceive you. And it does
impact some of those things. So
I try not to be unrealistic
about that and say, well, the
world should just change. And
while I believe that that may be
true, the world hasn't changed
and you have to operate within
it. So thinking about how you do
talk about that is important,
what position you're in to be
able to discuss these things.
And I think that can be useful.
And the kind of on the back end
of that, the thing that I do
find can be very destructive are
people with zero expertise who
give advice about how to manage
this or deal with it. You find
people who have absolutely no
training, absolutely no kind of
and they speak with great
authority about you know, just
do these two things and you'll
be fine. And so someone will
again, look at that and say,
well, I'm doing those things and
like, I still feel terrible.
What's wrong with me? You know,
like, so there's a dynamic that
I think we have to manage a
little bit around that and who
you see as an authority. It's
wild because in the world today,
everyone believes they're an
authority on everything. And
that's a challenge. But at the
same time, people take it
seriously. And I'm always
surprised that they do, right?
Like, one week, you're an
epidemiologist. The next week,
you're an economist. The next
week, you know, you can treat
burnout and you know all about
psychology and the next week,
you're a, you know, markets
expert. So it's wonderful. But
you know, be careful about who
you trust for information and
look to see if that person
actually has the expertise to be
giving you advice.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, the last years
have been wild. Yeah, that's
interesting. Expertise also
seems to be something that has
kind of lost some of its actual
value and strength as a word,
right? Like and that's in one
way is actually quite nice that
you can follow people's journey
towards expertise as they are
building it, right? It doesn't
make them an expert yet, but
it's kind of an expert in the
making. But you still need to,
you know, have some and you
initially when we talked about
imposter syndrome, you said you
want your surgeon to be able to
operate well, right? You want
the driver of your car to be
able to know the rules of
traffic, like there's certain
jobs where you need this
baseline level of expertise or
otherwise it becomes dangerous,
like obviously, 100% agreed
there. But yeah, you're right.
People shift their expertise a
lot. And this might be related
to the whole T shaped kind of
person thing as well, right?
Where it's, you now have to both
have a very, a skill set in one
particular issue, but you also
have to be a generalist and
others. And I think there's some
kind of, it's probably not a
Dunning-Kruger like effect, but
something where people over
estimate their ability in the
fields they're not an expert in
because they have some ability
in their field of expertise.
Dr. Julie Gurner: There is
something called the halo
effect, right?
Arvid Kahl: Yes
Dr. Julie Gurner: You know,
like, which is fantastic, where
you know, you have someone, a
great example, to me that always
makes me chuckle is to see, you
know, people who, you know, are
actors who now are social policy
experts, right? Like you play
pretend for a living and you are
now an expert in social policy,
which is, I think it's, you
know, it's amazing because the
leverage works because of the
people's willingness to follow
them into that space. And, you
know, I tweeted the other day,
you know, the interesting thing
and I think the great thing
about confidence is that people
will follow your lead. You know,
if you appear confident and you
speak confidently, most people
will buy it 100%. And that can
work for you and against you,
depending on if you're
legitimate in your space. But
that works with actors, you
know, in Congress, sometimes
they are not as capable as maybe
others could be in those
particular areas. It works for,
you know, people who are signal
authority on Twitter oftentimes,
and some people do have genuine
expertise that you want to
follow. I mean, there's some
incredible VCs that share their
wisdom on Twitter. There are
incredible founders on Twitter
and credible people in their
space there. I think it's a
real, it's an incredible
platform that I'm excited to be
a part of. But I think we also
see this odd effect where, you
know, somebody is a thought
leader. And if you really think
about, you know, where is their
expertise, it's challenging to
find, but they do say things in
very light kind of ways that get
social engagement. And you know,
good for them. I'm glad that
they're able to kind of build
from that people recognize the
gifts that they have. But in
general, in psychology, one
thing we know is that people
overestimate their
attractiveness and they
overestimate their intelligence.
And both things help our self
esteem. And so I'm all for it. I
would rather people be a bit
more confident and feel a bit
better about themselves than go
the other direction because I
think the other direction is
where it really begins to impact
our lives negatively. If you
feel that you're smarter than
you actually are, that's only
going to benefit you for the
most part. I mean, there are
probably things here and there
where it doesn't. But the
general rule is it would trend
more positively than feeling
that you're less than you
actually are almost across the
board.
Arvid Kahl: I guess a little bit
of confidence certainly is
helpful, particularly when
you're tackling things like
entrepreneurship, right? Like
you can be, I guess, neutrally
confident and go do the job that
somebody pays you to do and
you'll figure it out. But if
you're throwing yourself into a
field, an industry that you may
not have the most experience in
just yet, but you're trying to
figure it out, you have to be
confident that you can at least
handle it, right?
Dr. Julie Gurner: Yes, that is
the key. I think to a lot of
entrepreneurship is not the
confidence in your particular
area of operation. But the
confidence that no matter what
comes you can figure it out.
That is absolutely locked,
solid, essential. I think also
being like a self learner being
autodidactic, right? Like being
willing to teach yourself what
you need to know. You are on
your own. And I think that the
confidence to figure it out is
just a foundational element of
the best people who end up
moving forward. It's fantastic.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it's
definitely something that I
think I develop this early
because I'm an only child and I
got a lot of positive
reinforcement in my life, right?
It's one of those things where
my family, my parents, my
grandparents, they were always
like pushing me towards
challenges because they knew
that would help me not only get
better at what I was doing, but
also learning how to deal with
failure and rejection and build
up self esteem and resilience in
spite of failing and being
rejected, right? That always has
helped me. And it's kind of it's
almost sad to think that this is
not a universal experience in
childhood, right?
Dr. Julie Gurner: Well, I do
think that one of the things I
know that people like to kind of
have negative conversations
about education or schooling but
one thing that I really like
about schooling is it does show
you what you're good at and what
you're not. And you get that
comparison point very quickly.
You know, if you are really,
really solid at one thing,
you're gonna notice it even if
and you'll see where you're
outstanding compared to your
peers. Sometimes that's an
athletics. Sometimes it's in a
certain subject matter. You'll
also be able to be sparked in
things that you love. And so I
do think that there's great
benefit to it. I think, you
know, sometimes education is
what you make it and the
individuals who sit in that
classroom, for some people, it
will be their first exposure to
certain ideas. And those ideas I
think are important. You know,
we were talking about Steve Jobs
and I believe he was talking
about going to a calligraphy
class. And that's how he ended
up bringing the fonts into
development in his own company.
So there are things about even
the arts and others that we
don't really think about that
can inform how we work. And it's
why it's one of the reasons for
example, why I recommend if you
are a founder, if you are
someone in business, follow
people who are not like you.
Follow artists, follow people
who are in real estate, follow
people who are doing all these
things because there is
something about ambitious people
and their ideas and how they
approach the world that you can
ingest that may make you think
differently and will make you
better. And if you're only
surrounded by this small
ecosystem of founders or the
small ecosystem in your
particular profession or world,
it's very detrimental. And it
will keep you small, I think, in
some ways because it's hard to
do something different when
you're surrounded by the same.
Arvid Kahl: Yep! Oh, 100%. I've
incorporated that into my own
life because I felt that I'm
strongest where I'm
intersectional between the
things that I'm good at and
other things that are slightly
adjacent, some a little bit of
overlap, right? But then as
needs to be there can be
completely alien. But it has to
be just a little bit. And at
that point, I find something
that I didn't realize is mind
blowing in many ways. Examples
would be probably, I have a lot
of newsletters in my inbox. And
not all of them. A few of them
really are about
entrepreneurship or software
engineering. Most of them are
about pasta. I'm a fan. Cooking,
like professional cooking with
all that kind of stuff,
historical financial system
analysis and I think aerospace
engineering. Like I'm trying to
find fields where my technical
interests, my intellectual
interests, and my culinary
interests, they all are kind of
intersecting with what I already
know something about, right?
Content creation and software
engineering and
entrepreneurship. And it is
often in tiny little phrases and
tiny little thoughts that come
in, in these completely
different kinds of information
channels that I find thoughts.
Oh, wow, here's something that I
can take from my own experience
into this other field and help
people there right now. It's
these sometimes really nice
little things. Practical example
would be people in the culinary
field, they have problems like
keeping an inventory of their I
don't know, spices or something,
right? And here I am having
built inventory software systems
and having understood like
optimization algorithms and I
can tell them, well, if you
really want to stack them
efficiently, here is the
knapsack problem, a mathematical
problem that is optimizing for
space in any given container,
right? I can transfer my
knowledge from one field that is
totally normal here, completely
unheard of over there. And I can
give people a way to improve
their own lives just by being in
two fields at the same time.
Dr. Julie Gurner: It's amazing!
I think cross pollination to me
is, it's just, it's brilliant.
It's thought provoking. It's
often where you get ideas that
catapult you above your peers
because you don't like there's
nothing kind of I think more sad
sometimes, like, let's just say
that you're in marketing and all
you do is you know, you're on
marketing forums, talking to
marketing people, go to
marketing conferences. Like,
yeah, there are some skills and
tactical things that you might
learn. But if you really want to
think about marketing
differently, like what about
looking at, I don't know, Lil
Nas, the rap artist to like blew
up and, you know, is known as
being an incredible self
promoter. What can you learn
from that? What can you learn
from, you know, Melissa Hobley,
who's a great marketer works at,
I think, Tinder now, CMO is
incredible, but has campaigns
that are really, you know, get
people talking and are kind of
controversial and like, where
can you pull in like things from
dating apps, things from
artists, things from you know?
You really, I think, if you
stick into tech too deeply and
that's one thing I love about
New York City, for example, is
that so many different people
doing so many different things
are everywhere. It is not an
echo chamber. Aside from about
New York City, I think
everybody's kind of an echo
chamber in that way. But you
know, you get to capitalize on
people who are creative and
people who are very engaged and
deeply passionate about what
they do. And you can always pull
lessons from that if you listen
and if you're open. And to me, I
think that sometimes those are
the most interesting,
challenging areas where you walk
away from those conversations
and you think, how can I
integrate this into what I do?
It's also why I think philosophy
has been so beneficial, you
know, to my own work and why,
you know, the history of kind of
things that I've done have been
so informative to my own work.
We often draw from things that
are not necessarily things
others might anticipate.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, definitely.
It's the reason why we are
talking right now, right? We had
a disagreement and I thought,
this is awesome. I'm going to
follow this person. And I need
people who don't just agree with
me in my life. Otherwise, how
could I grow, right? It's a very
selfish thought. But in that, it
allows me to expose myself and
through whatever I'm talking
about other people to thoughts
that they might not have had
before, right? That they might
not have access to because their
little bubble might also keep
them from getting access to
those kinds of people and you
are one of these people for me.
I am extremely fortunate to have
met you and to now be able to
follow you, have this wonderful
conversation with you. And I
think more people should follow
you as well. So where would you
like people to go if they wanted
to follow you and interact?
Dr. Julie Gurner: That's a great
lead in. Thank you so much.
People can follow me on Twitter
@drgurner and certainly
subscribe to my newsletter at
Ultra Successful at
Arvid Kahl: That is a good
choice. Well, I think people
substack.com.
should definitely do that. And I
am very, very fortunate to have
had this conversation with you.
Thank you for sharing all your
insights and your knowledge and
these wonderful thoughts on just
how people can be their better
selves and stay, you know,
healthy and part of their
communities in ways that are
empowering all of us at the same
time. So thank you so much for
being on today. That was a
wonderful, wonderful
Dr. Julie Gurner: Thank you so
much for having me. I really
appreciate it. You know, it was
a fantastic exchange for me as
well. I think that on Twitter,
sometimes we are so quick to
dismiss other people if they
disagree. And you and I had
like, we just went back and
forth a few times just kind of
saying, well, how do you think
about this? How do you think
about this? And we really, I
left the conversation with a lot
conversation.
of respect for your openness and
for your candor and for the fact
that you know, we don't always
have to disagree. And that's all
right. So I look forward to
learning more from you as we
continue to both use the
platform. So thanks for having
Arvid Kahl: Thanks so much. I
very much respect that and you
me on.
as well. Thank you.
Dr. Julie Gurner: Thank you!
Arvid Kahl: And that's it for
today. Thank you for listening
to The Bootstrapped Founder. You
can find me on Twitter
@arvidkahl. You'll find my
books, my Twitter course there
as well. If you want to support
me and the show, please
subscribe to my YouTube channel,
get to the podcast in your
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leave a rating and a review by
going to
(http://ratethispodcast.com/founder).
Any of this, will help the show.
So thank you very much for
listening and have a wonderful
day. Bye bye.