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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
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Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.851)
Hi Heather.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (00:02.709)
Hi Becky, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:05.221)
Good. We get to talk about some of the best things in the world. Bell hooks, my hero, my idol, and love, which who doesn't love love. So this is exciting. How are you feeling about it?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (00:12.822)
I know, right? It is exciting. I'm excited. I love the whole concept of this new show and I'm really delighted that I get to be a guest and I have read bell hooks, but I hadn't read this and I just really appreciated being able to be exposed to something totally new. And I think you're going to do that for so many people in so many ways. And it's just really cool.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:37.269)
I hope so. Thank you. Well, this is Love as the Practice of Freedom by Bell Hooks. I have read all about love, which is a book she wrote all about love. This is similar. This is very, this is a little, it's like this very narrow window into some of that where it's about, I mean, it's pretty self-explanatory that love as a practice of freedom, that part of the way that we liberate ourselves and we get free is through love. So I'm curious just to start off like the 1200 foot view.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (00:38.86)
You're welcome.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (00:46.092)
Hahaha!
Heather Vickery (she/her) (00:55.562)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:05.48)
Did you like it? Did you hate it? What do you think of it?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (01:07.936)
Yeah, no, I did. I liked it a lot. I found it interesting, brought up some interesting things for me because I'm probably of the state that we are in politically where I think I don't want to speak for every progressive or every liberal out there, but I feel like we've been trying really hard to like love our way to the top and the evil winds and
I feel like we've all been a little bit liberated lately to go, okay, fine. We are not gonna go high. We are gonna go low. Fuck you. Like, let's play dirty. And so this called me out on that a little bit. And I think there's room for both. I think you can do both of those things. What, and I'm so excited to talk with you about this. What struck me is the balance between being able to lead with love.
and not allow yourself to be manipulated or taken advantage of.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:07.487)
Well, we are so on the same page because believe me, don't think anyone, I mean, I'm sure in whatever this was written in 1980, whatever, that it was probably the same. I mean, you're living through Reagan and all of that. So like, am sure there was, no matter the time you would read this, that you would have this like really deep philosophical question that comes up, but I feel like even more so in a world of Trump, is like, how do you fight hate with love? And.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (02:09.774)
You
Heather Vickery (she/her) (02:16.941)
Right.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (02:31.094)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:34.973)
in a way it makes sense, right? Like, yeah, of course, love beats out hate. And then the practicality and reality of what we see is like, but does it? And maybe it takes a long time and do I have time for that? And frankly, also it's just like, I'm fucking pissed and I'm mad and I wanna fight. And it's like, how do you hold yourself in this place of love as a liberatory practice when...
Heather Vickery (she/her) (02:43.982)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (02:50.606)
I'm mad. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:59.453)
really shitty, horrible things are happening to humans all around you. And it's like, all you want to do is fight hate with hate sometimes. It's really, really hard. And I did feel a little bit like a calling in to me, this reminder I needed and the place I've been over the last few months of like, sinking into some low lows.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (03:07.253)
It's really hard.
Uh-huh.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (03:17.496)
Pee-Mart, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's an interesting, and she didn't talk about this because nobody talked about this in the eighties. And I think if she were here today, bell hooks would talk about, I think we start this and this will track with, I don't know if anybody who's listening to this knows me, but if you know me, I think it starts with self-love. I actually think like you cannot fight, you cannot.
be on the forefront of revolution. Love is revolution, joy is revolution. I know you did another episode on joy, which is really powerful stuff. if we don't love, I mean, she does talk about it, guess a little. If we don't love ourselves, if we don't take care of ourselves, we don't have what it takes to love the community, to care for the community. I saw something earlier today that I think fits. Somebody on Substack was telling this whole story. was her.
daughters having some struggles, they live in Alabama, pregnancy struggles, and she found another progressive mom, grandparent in the front, and they talked and they complained and they commiserated and they held each other and she said, the revolution is two or three of us at a time.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (04:34.958)
And I think love as the practice of freedom is that reminder that it's two or three of us at a time. You don't actually have to love everybody all the time. And I don't love the Trump voters. I just don't. I don't.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:48.719)
You don't have to love Donald Trump. Like I have tried that. What's the loving kindness meditation and all of that? I have tried it with him and I've gotten there and there is that little part of me. There is this soft loving space that can get to this place of understanding how he got to where he is. It doesn't mean I can forgive or excuse the behaviors, but there is this part of me that if I really work at it, I can get there to say, if you know anything about his story and his parents, it's really an inevitable conclusion.
that he would end up where he is based on the way he was raised. And so there is a part of me that can find some compassion in there and some love, but it's hard to say that. And then also, but I think that's part of where I come down with this too is like, I think it's just that. It's like, where's that line between love and loving thy enemy and all of these things, right? I mean, we have enemies, but the us or them that she talks about, loving them and protecting yourself, right? Because I love that she got to the part about
Heather Vickery (she/her) (05:17.965)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (05:24.46)
That's the word I was going to say. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (05:44.3)
Yes. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:47.535)
I want to see if I can find it really quick. I don't know if I will. But she's talking about like in this in the world of, you know, activism and progressivism, anyone who shows up talking about love. here it is is often merely seen as sentimental. Right. And also naive. She mentioned somewhere. And I feel that because and I'm sure you do as somebody who talks about love a lot and self-love and all of that. And I also have to walk a line here. Sorry if I feel scattered is that paramedic pause brain, I guess. But we also have to walk a line as.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (06:08.908)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (06:15.818)
All of a
Becky Mollenkamp (06:17.503)
Great, two white women having this conversation as well, which we need to acknowledge that and we can talk more about it. But you can show up in a space and when you start talking about love, can, like love is the cure and all of that, it can very quickly sort of feel a little bit like this toxic positivity and not acknowledging the reality of harm and especially as somebody who has privilege of like, are we underselling or underestimating the harm? And so it is a tough.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (06:19.948)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (06:35.896)
Yes.
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:46.746)
It's tough. It's a tough thing to think about.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (06:51.608)
I think it's really important. And I was super aware, which won't surprise you, of my whiteness as I was reading this. And I think just like anything else, just like gratitude, just like anything else, it can all be abused. And if the message is, but you have to love at all costs, you have to love before anything else, and then that means ignoring somebody's truth or their lived experience or their race or their sexuality, if it means erasing people, that's not love though.
That's not love. And there is no freedom in that. That's manipulation. We do that to ourselves when we gaslight ourselves and we don't love ourselves. We manipulate ourselves, societally. And so it's just being able to be reflective and to question. I mean, it's like the conversation of the difference between kindness and niceness. I don't think that love is always nice. I think sometimes love is
Becky Mollenkamp (07:45.235)
Yeah. Well.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (07:50.535)
is can be a little brutal.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:54.335)
For sure, mean, sometimes the most loving thing to do is to set a boundary that ends up meaning someone can't be in your life. And if you look at it only like, if you, you're right, because if you equate love with being nice to everyone, and I would love to have you talk a little bit about the difference between nice and kind in your mind, but, I think that that's always really interesting. But if you think of love as just sort of meaning I'm nice to everybody, everybody has to get along, we have to like hold space for everyone's ideas and.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (08:00.259)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:23.549)
everything's equally valid and important. That is not always love. And that is, we see that also just forget about politics, which is interpersonal relationships where love can get so confused with being nice or with accepting anything anyone gives to you that we end up in relationships that are not at all loving.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (08:31.425)
yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (08:39.491)
Yes.
Not at all loving. it's actually, there's been a huge dialogue, especially on TikTok about, you a horrible person if you don't really give a shit for the people who fucked around and found out, right? Cause we're all being punished. We didn't fuck around. We're still finding out. It all really sucks. And I wanna be clear, from my stance, it isn't that I'm wishing harm on those people, but I am not saving space for compassion.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:55.411)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (09:12.256)
and caring. I'm not going out of my way to create compassion for them when I have people to take care of. If a community of people that did not choose this and that need the energy, the limited amount of energy that I have to offer and that feels like love even though it sounds like exclusion.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:34.943)
And that's where things can get muddy too, I think, a lot of times, because you will have people on the right, these people who are clearly filled with hate for a lot of people, who will then try to turn around and be like, well, if you don't love us, if you don't give space to my ideas, if you can't allow for my beliefs to be on par, equal with yours, whatever, then that's not very loving. Where's the love, right? They'll try to turn this back on you. But for a lot of people, it can start to feel really complicated.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (09:45.852)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (10:03.021)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:04.659)
Yeah, like it will make you second guess yourself. Am I showing up in a loving way? Right? If I can't hold space for my father-in-law who is now blaming everything on Obama, which is just mind boggling, but it's... yeah, this is all Obama's fault. So I think that's a Fox narrative. It's pretty wild, but that's happening, right? And so you think, is it not loving for me to say...
Heather Vickery (she/her) (10:07.822)
Sure. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (10:16.138)
Wait, what? That's amazing. That's amazing. Because he's black, I'm pretty sure. That's why.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:32.5)
He's allowed his ideas and those should be treated with as much care as my ideas. I do like, for me, I'm not in that place, but I know there are people who struggle with that to think, am I being loving? Am I being the progressive I say I am if I'm saying I can't have space for these other ideas.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (10:41.09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (10:50.424)
That's a tough question. I think if your love takes away, I mean, it's like everything else, takes away somebody else's autonomy or voice or right, it's not love. Like, yeah, your father-in-law can have those thoughts. Of course he can have those thoughts because we can have any thoughts that we want. However, you don't have to choose to be in company with him. You do not have to validate, absolutely not.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:08.661)
Right, I guess not.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:15.997)
certainly don't have to validate those ideas. That does not... yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (11:20.32)
And nor do you have to fight. I mean, maybe the best love in that scenario is to say, we're never gonna agree. And I'm not gonna have this conversation with you. Because we love each other, we're not gonna do this. And that gets tricky too, because then they're like, look, white women, you need to be having these hard conversations at the dinner table. But there is a time and a place. And it is not always the right time and place.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:26.111)
And that is what we do.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:42.195)
Yeah, and there's also what I mean, I don't know if this is valid anymore, but you know, the historic definition from Einstein, I think it was of insanity, right? It's like doing the same thing over and over again, probably very different. And there is a place where you have to recognize like, there is no changing the mind of an 80 something year old person who watches nothing but Fox. Like you can try and I have, but at some point you have to say for my mental health.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (11:48.59)
you
Of course. Yes.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (11:59.147)
None.
None.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:05.653)
And to protect myself, I have to say I abstain from these conversations. That doesn't mean I necessarily have to abstain from the relationship completely, although there are those, right? So there's also looking at each relationship to think if it's one that is worth keeping with all of that, right? And there are many that I don't have. I don't want to get too much more into my in-laws.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (12:05.954)
That's right.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (12:17.006)
It's all nuanced. Yep.
No, but I think that's love. But I think that's love as a form of freedom. I really do. There's so much freedom and detachment from shit you can't change or control. And I think it does require love to be able to do that. Like the foundation has to be love in order to be like, I can't hold this.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:45.599)
I just, you know, don't you wish you could like call on a particular advisor at any time in your life and find it? Like if I wish Belle hooks were alive and somehow I had a phone line directly to her to ask her like, or just to hear her speak today. And how, how do you manage that? Because I find it hard to believe the Belle as somebody who was so like, I've seen her speak. You can tell she cares about like this deeply that love is the foundation for her. And she shows up that way. And
Heather Vickery (she/her) (12:50.126)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:15.283)
I find it hard to believe that she didn't have space in her life with people who maybe didn't agree with her on everything, right? And I don't think she, I could be wrong. So I hate to put words into someone's mouth and I should do some more research. But my intuition tells me that she would probably say that we can have love for people who don't share all of our beliefs, but that love doesn't mean like we're talking about that we,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (13:22.238)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (13:29.281)
and
Becky Mollenkamp (13:44.169)
We accept what they say, we validate what they say, we agree with what they say. Right, we do anything to harm ourselves inside of that, like that foundation of I love myself and I can love you even if we don't agree. Now I also get though, and this is where things get challenging, because in certain moments I can be there, right? I be there. And then I also can hear some of my progressive friends who are like, fuck them. If they can't honor...
Heather Vickery (she/her) (13:47.288)
Sacrifice ourselves. Yeah
Heather Vickery (she/her) (14:01.144)
So tricky. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:10.599)
your full humanity. Like, you know, I'm queer, I'm not trans, but I'm queer and I consider my trans siblings to be of the same as me, right? Like, because we are all part of that same family. And so I can also hear folks saying like, if they can't fully be there with trans folks and they can't embrace and accept and honor the full humanity of these folks or, you know, immigrants or any of these other issues, then fuck them and they should not be in your life.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (14:14.51)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (14:18.966)
Yeah, of course.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:35.337)
And there is a part of me that also hears that and can say, in some moments I'm like, yeah, fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me. But doesn't always feel like love either.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (14:42.134)
Yes, but it's interesting. So when I came out, my dad is super religious. We have never talked about how he votes, but I know that he voted for Trump. know that he's conservative. He's super, super religious. When I came out, and fortunately he got to have a conversation with my cousin who I was always very close with before he had a conversation with me. And he said, I don't understand. My religion tells me it's wrong.
but you are my child and I love you and we'll just figure it out. Right? So I never necessarily changed his ideology and I'm pretty sure I didn't change his vote, but I think I did change his perspective on what a lesbian might be or like judging people. And he's always been very kind to my partner and he comes to our home and he is gracious and he asks thoughtful questions and like exposure shifts people.
On the flip side of the coin, my brother, who is my dad's child.
has a trans son.
my dad cannot get there. My dad cannot get there. My dad will dead name the child, will do all the things. And so, but my brother's really family oriented. And his solution is I don't make my children have to spend time with their grandparents, but I spend time. And I love and I hold space, but I'm never gonna force my child to have to go into that space where they don't feel respected and safe. Like,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (16:17.524)
I maybe wouldn't make that choice. I might not go, but I'm not mad at him for making that choice. He was like, this is what I got. These are my parents. I'm gonna love them. I'm gonna do what feels right to me, but I'm definitely not gonna put my child in harm's way. Okay, well, that is one way that I think that you can love. We don't have to agree on it all the time.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:34.057)
Yeah, and my goal is to try and educate where I can. I find that line of, because I also agree, if all of us with marginalized identities chose to remove ourselves from the lives of folks who disagree with some piece of that identity, first of all, fully understand it when you need to. If you need to, if it's for your health, your safety, all of that, of course. But for those of us who maybe have more privilege,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (16:38.147)
Yeah?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (16:48.322)
than what.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (16:52.173)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:03.445)
and are able to be in those spaces, there is this part of me that thinks, if we don't, who educates these folks? how do they, because we also know the way that we change our minds about things often is through meeting someone and saying like,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (17:10.294)
If not you, who?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (17:17.794)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:18.005)
that person's trans and they're no different than my other friend. Like, why am I having these beliefs or whatever the identity is? If we all remove ourselves, then it's almost in a way abdicating it to Fox News and just saying, yep, we'll just let them continue. And I do think it takes love, self-love, to be able to show up in a way that honors yourself, protects yourself inside that scenario, continues to say, I will be with you, but these are, like, I set boundaries. These are things I won't accept, right? And if this, like,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (17:21.047)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (17:42.158)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:44.981)
If there's a dead naming that happens for our cousin who has a trans kid, I always correct that. And I always push back on that, even against their own parents who are doing it. Because I'm like, you know what? It's not OK. I'm not going to let my child see me not correct somebody who's dead naming something. But it's hard.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (17:56.546)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. And I use that, it is hard. I used that privilege of not being the parent of that child. And I don't see my dad very often thinking we were there a year ago. My dad asked questions. mean, my dad, well, I think he just, you know, he's just older. He wants to understand, but he doesn't understand. And you know, why won't they, dad name.
go hang out because they were very close growing up with grandparents. Why won't they go to the movies with me? Why won't they hang out? And I said, well, you'd probably go a really long way if you would use the name that they ask you to use. He said, I just can't do it. And I said, then you're not going to have a relationship with them. And that is your choice. You're choosing that. And my dad just kind of looked down and looked sad. And I'm like, that's the best I can do, right? It's like, you can either respect them or you won't get a relationship with them. It's never going to be anything else.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:54.421)
Well, and she talks in this a lot or a part of it. And again, I should have marked things, but it was a PDF, so I didn't, I couldn't do it online. Because there was something in here too about this us versus them sort of thinking and how getting into that place of like us versus them. And then when the us is basically turning those same behaviors back on them, how is it any different? How is it any better? Like it happens a lot where
Heather Vickery (she/her) (19:00.214)
I know, I just, had to open it on my iPad so I could highlight it.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:24.341)
progressives and I say this to somebody who does it. So I get it. I'm as guilty as the next person sometimes online, especially where it becomes really easy, right? When we're in this like faceless space to be like, well, you shouldn't do that. You can't do that. You're not liberal enough. You're not progressive enough. You're not doing it right. You're not performing these ideologies the right quote unquote right way. And remembering that one, that's not loving and two, it is still rooted in all of the same. Like she talks about this.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (19:45.379)
huh.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (19:52.12)
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:52.917)
colonize white supremacy and all of that. And that's exactly what it is. It's like when we meet their hatred with hatred, we're just exhibiting, even if our hatred feels righteous, even if it's for the right ends, we're still participating in the same white supremacist ideologies.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (20:11.014)
I agree. I agree with that. And I love the, I highlighted the section on service. So I think, you know, it takes all kinds. My partner who owns a DEI training firm, her approach is what I would call very soft. It's very, let me hold your little old white hand and find a tender way for you to make the changes that I want to see you make in the world. That is not my approach. I don't have any time for that bullshit. I get really annoyed.
But you know what, it works for her because some people need that. I'm not the person to be of service to them though. I can't help them. So this quote, says, a love ethic emphasizes the importance of service to others. Within the value system of the United States, any task or job that is related to service is devalued. Service strengthens our capacity to know compassion and deepen our insights. To serve another, cannot see them as an object. I must see their subjecthood.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:45.502)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:59.391)
for sure.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (21:09.302)
And so along these lines is like, we're all gonna be in different parts of this journey because we have to be, because we have to be able to connect with other people who are in that part of the journey. We can't all pet people's hands and we can't all be really pissed that they're not doing enough or they're not doing it right. And that's the infighting in the progressive parties drives me fucking crazy. Not because they're perfect and not because we shouldn't hold elected officials
to some sort of standard, but we use it to get in the way of making positive change.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:47.401)
And too often, I think if those folks who are doing it, and I do it, I've done it. So like, let me speak to myself for my own journey, because I've been as guilty as the next, especially online again, but also in person sometimes with folks where I have tried, I've pushed back and like trying to, in some ways, hey, I think it's valuable to help, challenge people, to call people in, right? But there are times where I know that if I, when I can be really honest with myself, and I think of others could be honest, they too, they would know.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (21:53.632)
you
Heather Vickery (she/her) (22:07.362)
Sometimes it is, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:16.265)
that some of that is just about me wanting to feel superior, right? It's about me wanting to feel like I've got it figured out and you don't, I'm better than you. And that thinking is one, not loving again, and two is very much grounded in white supremacist hierarchical thinking. It is not helpful, it is not useful. And yet we do it so often and so much of that is like, are we doing it to be, as you said, in service of their growth? Or is it just for us to feel better? And that is...
Heather Vickery (she/her) (22:20.088)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (22:28.724)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (22:44.034)
That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:45.205)
And if we can get honest, and it's hard to do that because boy, oh boy, all the defensiveness creeps in and we want to be like, no, no, no, I'm just trying to help them. But are you? Are you? Your anonymous, your quick little reply on blue sky, pushing back on them or wherever. Is that really trying to be of service to help them? Or is it just to make you look better on mine? You know, and I know I've been guilty of it. I've been guilty of it. And that's not loving.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (22:53.112)
Are you?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (23:02.616)
Absolutely.
But Becky, that's the question that I now ask myself almost not always because I am as human as everybody else, but almost every time I respond to something on social media or even talk out loud. If I say this, is it going to make anything better?
Becky Mollenkamp (23:22.282)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (23:23.5)
And if the answer is no, then I'm trying really hard not to say it because then that is me just wanting to have power or wanting to assert myself or wanting to be praised. Like, does this make a difference? A positive difference. And if it doesn't, maybe I don't need to say, I delete so much shit now. The other thing that, you know, I'm learning and I, you I don't, I'll be curious to hear your opinion on where this falls in, in a statement of love, but
Becky Mollenkamp (23:35.989)
positive business.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (23:53.864)
If the author is a person of color, particularly probably a black person, even if what I'm saying is supportive, I sometimes go, my voice is just not necessary.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:09.491)
I think it's really hard sometimes to know where that necessary line is. certainly think, I think reposting, retweeting, whatever, resharing, uplifting, amplifying those voices is where our voices need, or our power is needed, right? To use my platform, but I mean, sometimes I'll repost it with a quote or saying something positive about it because I do feel like that.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (24:12.309)
It is. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (24:18.626)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Absolutely, yes. But it doesn't need my comment most of the time.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:35.743)
helps it get more reach. So again, that feels like I'm using my platform and my power for positive. But yeah, I think oftentimes our voice isn't needed. The place I would say it's most needed though, is when someone with a marginalized identity is being attacked or in otherwise receiving hate. It shouldn't be just folks who share their marginalization showing up in their comments to support them. That is where we need, the more privilege you have, the more you need to be showing up. Because that again, there's that where I, and I do think.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (24:38.08)
Yeah, yeah. I love that.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (24:49.525)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (24:55.926)
Yeah. Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (25:02.251)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:05.013)
you know, when I can get my head here. And it's so hard lately, but when I can get my head into that love, I think often we can really analyze most things like, is this the loving thing to do right now? Right? If we ask that, I think it would change so much about how we show up. It's just not always easy to tap into it.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (25:17.236)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (25:24.078)
It's not, but it does help to think about love as in service. am I in service of something better with this? But the crazy Christians think they're, don't know, like I guess.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:28.724)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:39.529)
Well, that's just what our conversation, especially like I think the more privileged identities you hold, the more you've been conditioned into believing your voice is always helpful. Everything you're doing is necessary and needed. mean, that's why this white saviorism comes in, right? course what I'm doing here is helpful. You can start to really believe that. And I think part of it then is like putting yourself, know, empathy, what a skill, putting yourself into the other person's shoes to say, would I receive this as love?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (25:48.334)
Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (26:09.429)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:09.491)
And that is not something I always do and it's not always easy to do. And sometimes it's almost impossible to do because it's hard to find empathy for folks for whom you don't understand their lived experience, right? So again, you're putting your own, it's hard to step into their shoes without putting yourself in it, right? Like, no, maybe I would receive that as love, but I don't know their lived experience, so maybe they wouldn't. But I think sometimes if it's in doubt, a great thing to do is ask. And we don't do enough of that, do we? You get curious, would this be helpful if I did this?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (26:13.356)
now.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (26:20.248)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (26:33.546)
Absolutely. No. Yeah. Well, not related to love and I don't mean to turn this randomly around, but that's for me, that's what I've learned through human design. That sounds crazy, but like to be able to ask more questions. And that is the loving thing to do. Like, okay, well, would this be supportive? Would you like this help? You know, my kids even have said to me as they were growing up,
Becky Mollenkamp (26:38.333)
What the person tell us? How often do we do that?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (27:01.366)
I want to just tell you stuff, but you always want to fix it. And I don't always want you to fix it. And I'm like, now, so one of the things, and I hear people say this all the time is you could ask, you could say, Hey, do you want my, my fixer hat on or my listener hat on? But, one of my daughters said, I promise to always ask if I want you to fix it. I will ask for you to help me fix it. And if I am not asking, I just want you to listen. I was like, shit, that's hard. That is hard love right there.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:19.519)
to you.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:27.569)
It is hard. It doesn't do much of what we're doing. Yeah. Well, I think the three C's.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (27:30.598)
But I do my best. Yeah. But I was pretty proud of her for knowing to tell me that. I was like, well, I couldn't have completely fucked up because she knew to say that.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:38.901)
I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, no, the more time you spend with kids, the more you realize that they've got it figured out. It's us. Like, the older we get, the more problematic we become, for sure. I think the three Cs are very like, to me, they're all grounded in love. And I think of compassion, curiosity, and consent. And like all three of those things, if we're using those things, then we're far more likely to show up in a loving way, right? So slowing down just to say,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (27:44.462)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (28:03.637)
Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:04.469)
Can I have some compassion, some care, some love, some empathy here for this person? Can I get curious to ask them questions instead of me making assumptions about them? And of course, always with consent, like, can I make sure I keep checking in? Is this what you need? How do I help you? What do you want out of this? I mean, just imagine if we all did that, like everything would shift, but that's, you know, it's not what happens.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (28:13.638)
huh.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (28:24.734)
Well, and it wouldn't be a conversation with me if I didn't say, we need to do that with ourselves. That's what we need to do with ourselves. Like all day long. Let me give myself a little compassion. Let me be curious. Let me ask myself questions. What do I want to do? Right? That's the consent part. What do I want to do now?
Becky Mollenkamp (28:30.814)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:43.893)
Yeah. What's interesting because you, think there are two different, separate but equal ways of approaching love and extending love to others. And I find it's very interesting for some people starting internally and working out works best, right? If they can get to a place of loving themselves, then they can extend that love outward. I have also found, and I'm the opposite of that.
where I tend to do better, where I start expanding my love outward, and then eventually it becomes something I can no longer, it creates a cognitive dissonance that I can no longer ignore, where I have to extend it to myself. Because the more I'm able to do that for others, I think it's okay for them to wear whatever they want to wear, and I'm not gonna judge them. It's okay for them to X, Y, or Z, yet I'm doing this to myself. And eventually that creates enough cognitive dissonance that I'm like, okay, I can't, it's obvious I can no longer do this.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (29:17.07)
Thomas back. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (29:22.531)
I love that.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (29:37.772)
You can't ignore it anymore. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:40.253)
It's interesting, I think it can go either way, but I think ultimately both things are needed. We need care and love for self and care and love for our community. And she talks about both.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (29:45.589)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (29:49.792)
Well, and I think I love that you said that because I think it's so important to recognize that there isn't one way to do this. There's not one way to solve a problem. There's not one way to love. There's not one way to be an ally or an activist or a feminist or whatever. Right. And so you're going to figure out what's yours, each, each and every one of us, and then just do your best. And then when you learn something different, maybe you'd do something different.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:15.289)
Mm-hmm. You know, and I'm curious what you thought. Have you read all about love by bell hooks? Okay, it's okay. I highly recommend it. I have it right there on the top of my book file and it's very marked up because it's so good. And in that it's a lot more about what is love? What does love mean? And one piece where it's similar here, because in this she briefly talks about what love is and mentions Scott Peck's book, The Road Less Traveled.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (30:20.876)
I have not.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (30:29.272)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:41.279)
which is very big in the self-help and psychology spaces. My husband was getting his counseling degree, to read it. It is sort of a standard text. And he talks about love in that book and in other places where I've heard it. And I think what it really boils down to and what often flips things on its head for people is that love is an action and love is a choice. So love is not just about how you feel. And this is where I think often we get confused in
Heather Vickery (she/her) (30:41.453)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (30:44.853)
yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (31:03.5)
Yes. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:10.535)
interpersonal relationships, particularly romantic relationships where we think we're in love because we're feeling all this care, this lust, this like all of these deep, big, wild feelings for someone. And then we wonder why like it didn't sustain itself and it dies out. And I think a big part of it is because what we learn, especially from people who've made marriages last for 60, 70 years, what they will tell you often is I chose to love them. It's hard. It wasn't always fun. There were days I couldn't stand them.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (31:12.152)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (31:25.976)
Mm, mm.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (31:36.182)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:39.133)
And I still chose to stay, I still chose to work on it, I still chose love. And I think that's really interesting.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (31:45.1)
Well, and I think that to your point of some people, it starts internal and grows external. For me, that's definitely true. am, not that I didn't love my people before I learned how to care and truly have self-love, but I'm better at it. And they may not always agree because I have better boundaries, because I ask for what I want, because I take less shit, but that is loving, I think, in action.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:50.303)
Good.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (32:11.254)
And then some people, it goes outwards and then the cognitive dissonance, but all of it, all of it has action.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:18.205)
Absolutely. It was because I think for so long I didn't understand, like I couldn't understand how to love myself because I didn't know how to love others. I didn't really know what love meant and looked like. And honestly, think having a kid, and that is not that long ago, was the thing that most transformed my understanding of love because I realized that like with my child, there's literally not a thing he could do that would make me not love him. Not a thing.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (32:19.167)
always.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (32:28.076)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (32:44.236)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:45.749)
He could kill someone. There's just nothing he could do. There would be things that would disappoint me. Right, there things that would disappoint me, that would hurt me, that would be awful. But there is no way I could choose to not love him and recognizing that and then comparing that to some of my other relationships and seeing how I wasn't extending that to myself. And yet I was a child like him once and deserve it as much. I don't know, that was really helpful. And all of it has helped me see just in the partnership I'm in now.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (32:49.344)
You wouldn't always approve or agree, but there's love. Yes.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (33:04.621)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:13.941)
recognizing the ways in my previous marriage that I wasn't choosing love. I didn't meet those, and now I'm like, go ahead.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (33:18.902)
Well, something that-
No, I didn't mean to cut you off, I apologize. There's a little lag here.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:25.397)
No, no, I was just gonna say now when things get hard, I still am like, I'm making the choice. Like I can, I can actually feel it, see it, know it, that this and recognize like this is a choice. And it is a choice that I'm continuing to make that I am continuing to choose to love because if I don't, I would have left in the same way I've left previous relationships when it got hard.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (33:37.165)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (33:44.512)
Yeah. yeah. Yes. Absolutely. I was going to say one of the things that that bell hooks talks about in this piece is how domination is not love. is anti-love. She says, and you can't choose to be in if you have to always dominate, right? Like you just manipulate and everything. And, the balance on that, like loving as a parent.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:58.836)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (34:13.95)
is setting boundaries. It is not letting your child run over you all the time and take advantage of you all the time, right? But it also isn't you being a tyrant. It isn't you never listening to their voice. It isn't you telling them, if you don't eat that, you don't eat, you don't eat. it's, right? And so this balance of not being dominant and being in service, but also not being a doormat, like it really is a lot of work. It's worthy work, but it is a lot.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:18.901)
I see it.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (34:42.676)
of intention in order to even try to do it well most of the time.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:49.961)
For sure. That's why that all about love, because it helped me see one that love was a choice. Like it really helped me understand it in a better way. It helped me understand love isn't what I always thought it was. like, it was this, I guess I was waiting for others. I've always waited for others to like validate that what I'm experiencing is love in a way. Like if they don't say it first, then it's not real or whatever. And recognizing I can choose love.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (34:56.588)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:16.827)
anywhere. Like she mentioned somewhere in here too about like just even having these conversations that we're in. Like this is an act of love and I can choose that this is this is love and I realized I used to think I didn't have friends and I'm like I have lots of friends and I'm in love with so many of my friends and being able to say like I'm in love with someone and it not being this about sex and romance.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (35:25.208)
Yep.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (35:34.775)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (35:39.822)
Weird creepy thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:43.167)
is so how we're conditioned. And when you can start to understand that love is, love is a choice. It's not just a feeling. It's about actions, about it's about staying with it. It's about care for and service for others. And also for self, it really does change your relationship with this idea of love and who do you love and what love means because then I can bring love into so many places where previously I might've thought like,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (36:01.099)
It does.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:08.223)
Well, this isn't about that. And it does sort of start to change things. Like my relationships with folks like you and others online, they're virtual friendships, people I've never even met, I can say I love them because I'm choosing that. It's just such a, I don't know, it all sounds again where she goes back and it's all kind of naive and what, but it makes such a difference in how I want to show up and be in space with people.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (36:10.231)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (36:17.742)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (36:29.706)
It does. And I think actually to tie that back into the conversation, the early part of the conversation, I believe for me, I can wish love on all of those people who I feel frustration and anger towards who are, who fucked around and they're finding out and they're making the rest of us find out. I can wish them love. And I hope that the love transforms them and it opens their heart and it opens their minds and that they can make different choices.
but I do still do not have to share space with them. I still do not have to give them any part of me that I don't have in reserve, but I can still wish them love. I can still hope that that love will light them up in positive ways.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:16.757)
Well, and I also think it's interesting too, because she calls it constantly through this. And I use it on my little quote board, because I've been doing it for anyone who's watching on YouTube. I've been trying to put up a quote from the piece. But she calls it a love ethic. And I think elsewhere, maybe even a practice. And I think that's so important, because it takes it from this feeling thing to a set of beliefs and a set of practices, a set of actions.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (37:24.79)
I've been watching,
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:40.627)
And when we can start to reframe that, then we can start to see how we bring love into community, how we bring love into our activism and what that actually means, because it's not just like, this woo woo feeling that I have for someone, because I think that's what makes people think it's naive, right? Because it seems naive when you're just saying like, can't we all just get along? That's what I think people think of when you talk about love. But what I think she's talking about here is not just that, it's how do I bring the practice, the actions, the service.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (37:46.253)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (37:53.708)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:07.315)
the beliefs about love into my work. And that isn't naive or silly. It's fucking hard. Like it's actually really hard. And when you start to understand it that way, it takes it from this like, isn't that sweet kind of a thing to like, shit, that's really hard. Cause it's a lot easier to show up pissed off and angry and name calling than it is to be like, how do I bring the practice and the ethic I have about love, about humanity, about people, about care for others? How do I bring that into the situation?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (38:13.332)
It's hard. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (38:23.576)
Fuck yeah it is. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:36.351)
That's a much harder question to ask yourself. And because that's one I've been exploring more lately, then how do I just show up and be like, fuck them all, fuck the patriarchy, even though I still believe that too.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (38:40.939)
It is.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (38:46.094)
Yeah, well, she calls it critical consciousness, which is what we were just talking about, right? She says, folks want to know how to begin the practice of loving. For me, this is where education for critical consciousness has to enter.
And I think that's the action part. That's the intention part and being aware of how this might land with somebody else, how this might affect somebody else and yourself in general. Yeah. I mean, it's a really great conversation because don't think that, well, I don't think many people spend much time recognizing A, that it has to be a verb. It's an action for it to be real and
that it doesn't always look like nice. It's not just a push. I'm like, give in to my kids. Sometimes I give in to my kids and I know full well I'm not actually doing them any favors. It's not the best love to let them have an entire box of cookies. Sometimes I pick it anyway, right? My daughter stayed home from school yesterday and she was so full of shit and I knew she shouldn't have stayed home from school. I was like, totally snowed me, but I knew it when it was happening. I was like, this is actually not my best way to love you, but okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:59.903)
Well, sometimes, because in truth, usually nice is easier. It's often, I that is what it's about too. It's because we're choosing the lowest friction in the moment action, right? When we know that love is maybe the better thing in the longterm, but it is often far more friction in the moment. And so often that's what we do. And sometimes as we need to, and we have to give ourselves compassion on that too, to say in this moment,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (40:03.906)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (40:09.982)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (40:20.632)
so much more.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:26.451)
The nice thing was the easy thing. It's the safe thing. It's the thing that protects me. It's the thing that I can, I have capacity for. And we know that love is the thing that actually we want to try to aim for. And sometimes we have to like have both. But again, we go back to this because I don't think we ever, I never really had you say it. When you think about the difference between nice and kind or nice and love, what do you, what do you see as the difference?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (40:38.658)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (40:52.77)
Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail right on the head. Niceness is often just really easy. Niceness is holding the door open for somebody. Kindness is saying...
that to my kid, no, you have to go to school because you need this education. know, does it not doing you any favors? We have mental health days. I did not describe any of that very well. I don't know what is kindness. I'm tired. It's, it's a prayer of menopause. think that kindness is direct. I think that kindness can sometimes be abrasive and it often maybe feels like you're being challenged, being called, you use the term being called in a lot. I love that term.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:16.893)
No, it's okay. It's paramedicoplasm. Like, it's always a good thing to use. That's your fault.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (41:34.39)
I think that's a kindness and a niceness would be just pretending it didn't happen, letting it go. Right? And I don't, you know, it is often the path of least resistance. Certainly yesterday, and y'all can judge me if you want to, letting my kids stay homeless because I just did not have the fucking energy to fight with her about it. Also, nobody was, no, the sky was not gonna fall, the world was not gonna end, it was all gonna be fine.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:53.882)
You gotta have your own.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (42:00.97)
But I followed it up with some loving kindness and I was like, okay, but if we do that, here are the rules and here are the boundaries. And you need to get your computer and we need to look at your schedule and we need to email your teachers and you need to work on the work you're missing while you're home today. She said, okay, I'll do that. We do the best we can.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:19.647)
Well, exactly. that's why I think it's because here, this is where the white supremacist stuff comes up of it needing to be everything is a binary. Everything's right or wrong, good or bad. Right. And maybe, maybe we could say that nice is not as good as kind or nice is not as good as loving. Maybe. But does it matter? Because we have to allow for both. Right. We need to get rid of that binary thinking. But often what happens is when we start to learn about these things,
We start to think about like, well then if, you know, if bell hooks are Lord and savior says we need to be in love in all moments, then I need to do it all the time or I'm getting it wrong. And that's why I'm like, God, I wish bell, I could have a conversation with her because my thought is she would say, no, that's also not loving to do that to yourself is not love to make you to judge yourself to set yourself up to that kind of a standard. That's not loving. The loving thing is to say, how can I do the best I can with the capacity I have, the ability I have, the energy I have, the knowledge I have.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (43:15.17)
That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:17.917)
in that moment and then love myself through it. And if in that moment, the thing I need is just to be nice, then okay, I can love myself through
Heather Vickery (she/her) (43:24.598)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. There's so much intentionality. That's the key. Consciousness, right? Educated consciousness. That is the key to making all of this work, I think, for ourselves and for community and for positive growth globally. Like that has to be it.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:31.615)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:45.651)
Yeah, which is like all of these things easier said than done because I managed to call the client today and it was sort of this like how do I stop expecting myself to give my hundred percent if all that's needed in the moment is my seventy five percent because I'm like I'm overwhelmed and burned out and yeah like eventually I think we get there but when you're still really caught up in capitalist conditioning and the
Heather Vickery (she/her) (43:50.08)
Of course, yes!
Heather Vickery (she/her) (44:02.295)
I got really good at that.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (44:12.077)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:12.989)
the belief that your worth is tied to your productivity and all these things that many of us are, it is easier said than done to say, really the answer to how you do that is you just get aware of when you're doing it and you make a new choice. That sounds simplistic, but ultimately that is what it takes, but it's not easy, right? It's simple, but not easy.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (44:25.944)
That's it.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (44:30.442)
It isn't easy. Yeah. But again, it requires self-reflection and it requires honesty and asking yourself questions and being conscious. I'll tell people all the time, if you check in with yourself and you realize today all of God is 15 % and you give yourself 15%, that is a hundred percent. And with perimenopause and with running a business in this ridiculous economy and with being a projector in human design, I...
Becky Mollenkamp (44:49.033)
Right.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (45:00.216)
have had I just think I would be I would have broken and you would never have been able to put me back together if I couldn't say this cannot I do not have a hundred percent to give right now maybe of anything I think it's very loving I think it was very loving right yeah no it wouldn't have been better for anybody and would it have really made me more money would it have really like
Becky Mollenkamp (45:12.083)
And is that loving? Is that loving then? No. No, I'm saying if you had broken yourself into pieces, that wouldn't have been, yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (45:27.672)
Probably not, I would have done shitty work. It doesn't matter. yeah, ooh, that's a hard one though.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:35.711)
Something, yeah, well, something I just wanna make sure because I know we're coming up towards the end and we didn't specifically mention this, but I wanted to because I really liked it. Because of course, as I was reading this early on, she's talking about Martin Luther King Jr. and how he represented this love ethic and so much of his work was grounded in that love ethic. And then along kind of came the Black Power Movement and Malcolm X. And she sort of compares these differences. And again, as two white people talking about this, that's challenging. And I don't wanna go too far down that.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (45:47.597)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (46:03.527)
huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:03.707)
other than to say, I do feel like where she sort of brings it in a place, because again, right, it leads me to this place of like, well, that's great, but look where all that love got MLK, right? Like think there is that feeling that kind of came at that time. And I can see where the anger comes out of that of like, how long can we show up as, you know, nonviolent, non-resistant, showing up with love and being beat down? Like, how long can you do that? And what I do love is she said on the positive side.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (46:14.36)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:27.957)
the Black Power movement shifted the focus of Black liberation struggle from reform to revolution. And so Belle was very clear that like, love doesn't mean just saying, I'll take what I can get, it's good enough, let's perform. Like she was for revolution. Yeah, and she's for revolution. I think it's important to know that because that again is where that idea of this being like naive and silly and like, that's not gonna get us anywhere. It's not like Belle was saying, hey guys, we just have to take what we can get. And that's what love, you know,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (46:37.55)
That's right. That's right. Love is a form of revolution. Yes. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (46:56.46)
Yeah. No. And she talks about how so much of, when it's not rooted in love, there's so much self-hatred. And lots of things can be true at once because I think love is a form of revolution. And she also talks about how a lot of the, and again, I recognize my white privilege here. So just from the piece that I read,
Becky Mollenkamp (46:57.841)
We show up with love, that's not it.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (47:25.016)
that there's a lot of, it was steeped in patriarchy, right? It was not a feminist movement. It was a black power movement, which is wonderful. Like it served that purpose, but there was also still harm and how lots of things can be true at once. And you want to recognize those things.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:30.357)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:42.601)
Well, the parallel we can talk about then is exactly the same thing that was happening in the feminist movement, right? Where the feminist movement was not about equality and care and love for all. It was how do I just mine as white women, right? And then forget all the others. Will you wait your turn? Which has been very much a theme of any of these things where there's any of those power structures involved. It's like those with the most power get it first and then eventually we'll get it to you as if it's ours to give.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (47:47.191)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (47:52.558)
No, it was about-
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:08.947)
right? And that is sort of because she says without a lot ethic of love shaping the direction of our political vision and our radical aspirations we are often seduced in one way or another and to continue to allegiance with the systems of domination, imperialism, sexism, racism, classism. And you're right she brings it up with the Black Panther movement where it became this sort of this yeah it's about
liberation for black folks, but it was really about liberation for black men, right? Because it was this power dynamic at play. The same thing with feminism where, know, suffragettes and all that are coming up and yeah, it's about women, but no, it's really only about white women. And that's because we're not, it's not grounded in love. And we see the same thing now with our trans siblings and things that are happening, happening where it's like, where is the love that we need to bring to this? Because that would change everything.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (48:39.758)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (48:51.38)
but it's interesting as we as we are coming to a close all yes to all of that i think that all of that is 100 on point and then i think about how the black panthers fed the children in the community there's definitely love you can yes and that was the point i was making
Becky Mollenkamp (49:03.871)
For sure. You can do both horror and like you can be loving and also anyone, and I'll take it away from, yeah, I want to take it away from the Black Panther movement and just like, just in general, like you can be in a relationship where there are these moments of tenderness and care from this man who makes you feel so seen and loved, or he's taking care of your kids and then turning around and beating you. Is that still love though, right? Like it can be that both, yeah, which is interesting. And the other thing, before we go,
Heather Vickery (she/her) (49:26.86)
Yeah, right. That's true.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:33.077)
One other thing I wanted to think of is, because you talked about modern politics, right? And what she would think about all of that and how we're showing up now and like the Michelle Obama we've tried to go high and the sort of feeling now of like, maybe we go low.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (49:36.76)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (49:43.51)
I appreciate that Michelle Obama has decided that's, that's bullshit now too. She's like, fuck it. I'm not there anymore.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:48.241)
I know. But it's interesting. It's a yes and and most of me is like, yeah, we got to fight fire with fire. And I do feel that. And is it working? Does it work? Or is it only getting us more mired into this thing? I don't know the answer to that. But as I was reading this, I was thinking, when was the last time I felt like I felt a love ethic in politics? And honestly, it was Obama in 08.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (50:01.422)
I don't know.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (50:11.413)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:12.297)
I want to clearly say I didn't agree with everything he did as president at all. And I don't think he was a perfect president. I think there were a lot of issues. But the reason he won was not because he went low. He won because he did bring love. It was this like, yes, you can. Yes, we can. Like, love message. And it worked.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (50:27.917)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:29.779)
It was a different time. I don't know that that message could work again, but that feels to me like the last time I've really seen it. I didn't feel that in from Kamala. didn't, I don't feel, didn't feel that from him Biden. Like who's bringing that message and is it even possible anymore? You don't have to be an expert. don't have an answer, but I wonder if you were thinking about that too.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (50:32.77)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (50:41.324)
love. Yeah, I don't know.
Well, what we got that I loved so much from Kamala was hope and joy. And I inherently believe that hope and joy are rooted in love. Because I just don't think we can be hopeful and experience joy without a foundation of love of some kind. But it's a different approach. And I agree with you on Obama. I don't know. There was some sort of special magic that Barack Obama has. Some sort of, I don't know, people felt seen that.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:51.103)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:56.916)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:13.427)
Yeah. No! I do!
Heather Vickery (she/her) (51:15.094)
My super Republican grandmother voted for him and you could have knocked me over with a fucking fight in Indiana. She literally called me and she was like, our guy is going to win. I was like, what? What is happening right now? So I don't know what that was.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:20.949)
Right?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:29.381)
He didn't have voted for other folks who didn't have, like, you know, somewhere I see it, maybe, just sparks of it, is in Pete Buttigieg, who has, but in an upgraded kind of like meeting the moment kind of way, where I do feel ultimately, he keeps coming back to this sort of place of like, even just talking about his family and like, look, we're different, but we're just trying to have a family here. We're just trying to have love. but then he does, there's a little edge to it too. And I just wonder if maybe that's the approach we need. I don't, I don't know. I hope we figure it out.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (51:38.199)
I love Pete.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (51:48.461)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (51:54.06)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (51:58.186)
Well, that could be a really interesting embodiment of this whole, love is not always nice, right? Like, because I do think that his stuff is rooted in love and I, I just have a soft spot for Pete. think he's amazing. I think he's intelligent, all of these things, but he also isn't a pushover. He doesn't take any bullshit and he will challenge you, but he does it in a kind way that's rooted in love.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:06.566)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:13.885)
and his husband's home. exactly!
Becky Mollenkamp (52:24.019)
And I feel like that's what Obama did back in the day. I felt that was very similar to in his, like there, wasn't that it was like a kumbaya, let's all get along. Like I think his message was still tougher, but it was, it just kept coming back to like the us of it, like the community that, and I don't know, that feels like where it's missing. It's so much the us and the them and how do we find and tap into the us. And that to me is about love. She talks about community. So anyway, thanks for nudging me on that.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (52:25.762)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (52:50.518)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:54.197)
I like to finish these by asking, do you recommend people read this? Is there anyone particular you think should read it is it for anyone? Like what are your thoughts on who should read this?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (53:02.082)
I think it's very interesting, especially if you have struggled with, with self love or, how do I show up in this space? I mean, we talked about this before, like I have a sometimes not often, but I have a difficulty being very verbose about my work because everything feels so messy right now. And then I remind myself that we really need the work. We need love. We need joy. We need hope. and so if you're sort of struggling with how to merge those,
with what's happening in the world and taking up space and fighting and being part of the revolution, I think it could be a really great read. And it's not long, it's a short read. My PDF said it was 35 pages and I was like, okay, and then I ended it and I was like, what was the rest of this? I don't know what the rest of it was, but it wasn't Bell Hook's article.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:40.179)
No, it was really short.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:47.797)
Yeah, the one I gave you had a bunch other stuff. I need to find one that only has this if I can. But otherwise, if you do download it, just know it's just the first like six pages. So not 35. Yeah, it is a quick read. I highly recommend it. I though like I recommend everything and anything bell hooks has written because I she is the she's divine or was. Mm hmm. Yeah, what a conversation like this.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (54:01.814)
Of course. Yeah. But talk to people about it. That's the thing. Like read it and then talk to people about it. Yeah. Because I do think it elicits a really fascinating conversation and you'll learn something about yourself or others.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:17.321)
Yeah, yeah. And if you've ever heard about All About Love, which is probably Bell Hook's most famous book, I think, one of them at least, and you're like, I don't know if I can read a whole book. This is like, it distills some of that. I mean, and if you do read this and love it, then I highly recommend moving on to All About Love because it expands a lot on this in ways that go beyond just the political, that go, because I feel like this is really focused a bit more on love and activism. And the book is really about love and relationships and not just.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (54:41.836)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:44.935)
Romantic relationships and all relationships including with self. So I highly recommend that as well Heather you're awesome. there's gonna be links in the show for everybody to go find Heather. Where do you want them to go?
Heather Vickery (she/her) (54:50.139)
Awesome. You're awesome.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (54:57.198)
Probably easiest to just go to my website, vickareancode.com, where you can find links to, I'm on Substack, Blue Sky, and TikTok. That's it, those are the only places you can find me.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:06.847)
Those are the places. Yeah, so go connect with Heather and she talks a lot about this issue. So it was perfect. I'm glad that we did this one with you since I know self-love in particular is so important to you. Thank you, Heather.
Heather Vickery (she/her) (55:14.114)
Yeah, thank you so much.
Bye.