Becoming an entrepreneur takes grit.
Deciding to do it solo takes courage.
This is 1,000 Routes, the podcast where we explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Hiba Amin [00:00:00]:
How do I actually work with other solopreneurs and kind of take on clients together? Because I think something that I've really been feeling, especially in the last year, is just loneliness.
Nick Bennett [00:00:21]:
This is 1000 Routes. Every episode. A solopreneur shares how they're building, what they're building. We'll hear all about how they've made the bet on themselves, the uncommon route that they're taking to build a business that serves their life, and the reality of building a business of one. I'm your host, Nick Bennett. Before we get started, I'm excited to share a new program that I've been working on called Full Stack Solopreneur in partnership with my friend and legendary entrepreneur Erica Schneider. Now, unlike other programs, Full Stack Solopreneur is a hybrid digital program for independent professionals who are too far along for another course to be really all that helpful, but not far enough to invest in a private coaching or consulting service. Here, you'll gain access to both the full curriculum and monthly group coaching clinics to teach you how to create a legendary niche offer, how to build a content engine and how to sell like a human. You can learn more at fullstacksolo.com. that's FullStack S O L O.com
Hiba Amin [00:01:18]:
I'm Hiba Amin and I'm a content consultant.
Nick Bennett [00:01:25]:
You've been doing this for like two years now.
Hiba Amin [00:01:27]:
I was working in house at a few early stage tech startups and in some of those situations, you know, we had layoffs through COVID and I'd become a team of one. And so it helped me just understand what's important in a business, I guess. And after a certain point, like, I spent most of my career at a company called Soapbox and then we rebranded to Hypercontext and since then I just made a couple moves that didn't make sense and I wasn't necessarily happy. And I really just stumbled into the consulting thing that was not my plan at all. I don't think I believed in myself enough at that point. But I took on my first almost like consulting or part fractional marketing role with a company called you can book me and they would technically be my first client. And at that point I just wanted to not be financially pressured into taking a job because all the companies I was interviewing with super matched to my experience, which was early stage startups. But I was just so burnt out and exhausted that I was like, I cannot go to another early stage startup and be the only marketer like I need people around me, I need to learn from others.
Hiba Amin [00:02:33]:
Like I don't want the pressure or the weight of the world to be on me is kind of where my mindset was at. And so I took on the part time, fractional role and then I started interviewing and some of the companies again, super early stage. Instead of signing a job offer, we were like, what if we just worked part time and like feel each other out and like treat this as like a three month employment test. I get to see how you guys work, you get to see how I work. And then a couple months in I was like, oh, this is actually like kind of fun. Like I'm enjoying working with different teams, I'm enjoying learning about all the different things that they're doing that's working that I could bring to other companies. And I just got to meet more people that I don't think I would have otherwise, at least not to the extent that I got to know all the different people across the companies I've worked with. And so yeah, I ended up incorporating.
Hiba Amin [00:03:21]:
I changed my LinkedIn because I was like, I should probably seem like this is a legitimate business. And so when I made the switch on LinkedIn, I was like, I'm a consultant now. Which I was like, am I? I don't know. Nothing felt real. Like everything felt made up still, even though, like legally it was real in my head I was like, I don't have employees, I'm not a business, even though I'm an employee. I guess technically. But then, yeah, people started reaching out. People started referring me to their friends and other companies that were hiring.
Hiba Amin [00:03:47]:
And so it was just like, yeah, a weird but really serendipitous, like wonderful series of events that's led me here. So it was just not, not a planned thing. And here we are.
Nick Bennett [00:04:00]:
Let's dig a little further into that because generally how people acquire their first clients is not that. I've heard a lot of different things, but so you started trying to find a job and then at some point you were like, instead of like both of us committing to this thing, let's do like a trial on a part time basis. And then that worked out. You're like, let's do another one and just keep doing this. So you're like applying, Were you applying to jobs? Like, how did you get these clients or how did you find these businesses?
Hiba Amin [00:04:29]:
I guess I was super burnt out from my last role and like just really questioning if I wanted to do marketing. A couple people who I had been like talking to for a couple years, Polly. Bilal, the CEO there, him and I would talk like on and off for a couple years and he would try to recruit me, but I had already had a job at that point. Yeah, he was the first person who were like, let's just do a trial and see because my contract doesn't end for another couple months with this other company, so I can't start full time. And so he reached out when he had an opening and that's kind of us just going through that conversation and we were like, okay, once your other contract ends, let's see if it makes sense to continue and just go full time. And my other contract didn't end, like, I'm still working with them. So I was like, let's just stay the course. His marketing budget was happier as a result, and so was I, where we ended up working together like two, three days a week.
Hiba Amin [00:05:19]:
And I would say there's a couple of those companies that I got to work with based on just some interviews as I was looking for that next full time job. And then I think having two clients that I was working with part time or fractionally, I. I just realized how much more fun I was having and how much more time I got back in my day or like agency too, and how I wanted to spread my time out. And so once I signed Polly, that's when I was like, okay, I'm just going to incorporate and try this thing and see where it goes. And that's when I ended up changing everything on LinkedIn. And then people started saying like, oh, he was a consultant now. I was like, okay, we can call me that. Like, great.
Nick Bennett [00:05:58]:
You're like, ooh, sounds prestigious. Oh, I like the sound of that. I'll raise my rates. So how did you get the next clients then? Like, LinkedIn is like, it's LinkedIn official now. What are some of the things that you had to do to kind of like fill your portfolio?
Hiba Amin [00:06:13]:
Basically it was mostly word of mouth or like referrals. So when I made the change, someone who I'd been friends with for a long time, and she's incredible, an incredible marketer. Her name's Sarah Stockdale. She's the founder of Growclass, which is the growth marketing course. So I think she saw that update on LinkedIn and messaged me and said, oh, you're consulting now. Like, we love some help if you're free. Like, I'm building a great content team. And I was like, yep, I love you.
Hiba Amin [00:06:37]:
I'm obsessed with you. I'm obsessed with everything you're building. So this is amazing. We get to work together and then, yeah, everything from there has been, I would say, mostly referral. Like, I'm thankful that I haven't had to start any cold outreach yet. And I'm very scared for the day that happens because I hate selling myself. Like, I think even in the conversations with companies, whether or not, like, I have a preexisting relationship with that person and it gets to the rate conversation, I'm like, honestly, whatever works.
Hiba Amin [00:07:03]:
Like, hourly retainer. I don't know. Like, I'm not a real person. We can figure this out. Like, what works for your business? And so I think that's something I'm trying to get better at because it's gone to a situation where when other marketers refer me in to work with clients they work with, I'm like, what do you think about this? Like, is this a crazy rate? And they're like, Hiba, are you kidding? Like, raise your rates? I'm like, okay, to what? Like, I don't know. That's why I'm so nervous when the day comes. Or I have to cold pitch, which I'm sure it'll come. But, yeah, if I have to cold pitch, I think I'm going to do myself a big disservice.
Hiba Amin [00:07:34]:
And that'll be a skill I'll really have to learn is just like, believe in yourself.
Nick Bennett [00:07:37]:
I thought you were going to say that sales, but you were like, the skill is called believe in yourself. You're like, I'm going to have to learn the skill. Believe in yourself. And. But I think if you were going to run out of referrals, it would have happened by now. Most people I know run out of referrals, like, 12 to 18 months in. It's more so. At least the way that I see it is the skill is starting new conversations with people.
Nick Bennett [00:08:02]:
Like, going cold outbound. Like, I don't know anyone who particularly loves doing that for themselves. I know people who work in sales for other companies. They're like, I'll do it. Like, I have a thicker skin for getting people yelling at me and saying no. So I don't really care. I'll do it. That's not me.
Nick Bennett [00:08:18]:
But it does make a lot more sense. Like, yeah, I was the worst. Like, I was in recruiting for, like, six months, and I was the world's worst recruiter. You don't want me cold calling on your behalf, trust me. But, like, can you go out there and start conversations and build relationships with people? 100. You can you know exactly how to do that. So, like shifting the lens from that. The pricing conversation also feels like it will never.
Nick Bennett [00:08:41]:
It's never going to be right either though.
Hiba Amin [00:08:43]:
Also comparing with other marketers is not helpful either because I think when we are full time, it was great. Because if you're doing the same job at a same sized business, then having a better understanding of that salary transparency with friends, you're like, oh, actually I am like under market value because I think a lot of the salary reports online, it's just so varied.
Nick Bennett [00:09:04]:
Yeah. Like, how is it possible one marketing manager makes like $250,000 and the other one's making like 25 grand? You're like, this doesn't make any sense.
Hiba Amin [00:09:11]:
Like, you're like, where do I sit here? I don't know, I don't understand. I'm really thankful that a lot of the people in my network, like, we're all so transparent, where I'm like, I charge this per hour to this client and I charge this. Like, do you think that's fair? How do I go about like, okay, it's been a year, how do I increase my rates? How do I have that conversation? When do we have like the cutoff of like, okay, now I have my roster of clients who pay more naturally for my business. This is the better business decision to stay with the people who pay you more. But then you also need to think like, okay, what's the happiness meter if I go that route too? I think that's been an interesting thing to juggle as well.
Nick Bennett [00:09:48]:
I found over time the relationship changes where you're like, where you become so close to the client and you're like friends with the client and you're like, you lose a lot of leverage in that way, like, influence. And then you're like, okay, has this relationship not like, come to its natural conclusion? Things like that have been challenging to navigate. Like, you gotta have a client for 18 months or 12 months to be like, oh, here's where things went off the rails and here's how I course correct. And then it gives you an opportunity to charge more. There's like too many variables to count. But how have you navigated some of these things? Because you went out on your own around probably like a little before the rush. I'd say like, the rush happened like 18 months ago. You've been at it for about two years now, probably a little longer, because I guess the incorporation, the LinkedIn official, like, how have you kind of navigated some of that stuff? Have you noticed an increase or decrease in demand over time and just trying to navigate the pricing conversation, like all that stuff.
Hiba Amin [00:10:49]:
I think it's felt cyclical almost. I mean, my very first, I guess technically, before I incorporated the first client I ever took on, maybe I never really considered them like a true client because I was just full time working with them. And that was the contract. Like, I was a full time employee for six months and then I guess different to now where I'm like fractional with a lot of companies. But Copy AI was where I guess technically would have been my very first client. And so I wasn't looking for other companies to work with because I was like, I'm just treating this as a full time job. And then once that was over, that's when I kind of was like, okay, am I looking for another proper full time job? And that's when I started to have like more of these fractional businesses and finished my first full year, I guess, of working with more clients than just one. And so, yeah, I think Bridget Putker and I, we were talking because we were both kind of panicking a little bit near the end of the year and we were like, oh my God.
Hiba Amin [00:11:42]:
Half of the companies I work with either had to lay off employees or, or they like had to cut their budget entirely. And so I think it was the first time where I was like, my days weren't set where I was like, okay, Mondays and Tuesdays I work with this company, Wednesdays and Thursdays I work with this one. Now I was like, oh, I like just freed up half of my time. What do I do? And I think it was kind of like just going into December and like, I think it was initially a lot of panic and then it was kind of just like, you know what, it's the holidays. Like, I'm definitely feeling my burnout. Let me just chill. But I'm kind of feeling it now in January too, where I'm seeing like such a rise again and people looking for like, content consultants or fractional content marketers. I'm back in a place where I'm like, how do I manage my day? Who do I say yes to? Who do I say no to? Because, like, yeah, in that very first year of starting to kind of open up my roster, it was so hard to say no to anyone because, like, are more people gonna come through the door? Like, I have no clue.
Hiba Amin [00:12:39]:
I have nothing to base this off of. So I'm just going to say yes and I'm going to work really hard and then I'm going to burn out. And now I'm like, oh, my God, I'm exhausted. I'm not doing that again. But I think it's been harder, I would say, over the last month, partly because I'm just taking it easy. That's probably one piece of it, but the other piece is, like, really just trying to set boundaries for myself to figure out who are the people that make the most sense to work with, where I can actually have an impact. And maybe that's a good way to set myself up this year is kind of expect that a lot of people will leave in December because they're going through things at their company. And then January, people will have a budget again, and they'll be like, okay, we're ready to hit the ground running.
Hiba Amin [00:13:18]:
And so maybe it's just mentally preparing for that. But, yeah, I would say it's. It's been hard trying to re. Figure out what I do each day because I'm like, well, I'm not working with a specific client on this day anymore. So now I have, like, three very small projects that I could kind of pick away at. But it doesn't feel like there's this habit or like your schedule just feels really all over the place. Like, it doesn't feel consistent. And that's the first time I'm kind of trying to go through that.
Hiba Amin [00:13:47]:
And how do I keep myself motivated? How do I hold myself accountable to getting things done when everything feels just like there's, like, 10 small tasks I could do. I don't know. And then you just kind of look at this list, and you're like, I don't know where to start, so I might just not start.
Nick Bennett [00:14:02]:
And you mentioned Bridget. Like, I had her on the show, and then she introduced me to you because I was like, I need to talk to some more legendary souls. And she was like, you need to talk to Hiba. See, I did, I did it. I'm like reading your head. Your. Your LinkedIn banner here.
Hiba Amin [00:14:17]:
I. Yeah, I'm part of the problem. I'm making people read it.
Nick Bennett [00:14:20]:
Yeah, you're. You're. You've made me read it, and now it's like my mind. She's like, you need to talk to Hiba. And I was like, cool. I totally relate with a lot of these things, especially the natural attrition that happens towards the end of the year. Like, in December, I think I rotated out, like, five or six clients. Now January has brought on a new wave of clients, which has been awesome.
Nick Bennett [00:14:43]:
But, yeah, it's like, you're kind of sitting there like, whoa, what just happened? It is a good thing. Like, when there's the natural ending point or there is whatever graduation or whatever milestone they hit. And you're like, okay, like, I think we've done what we have set out to do together, and it's time for both of us to move on to something else. But you're also like, am I going to get more? I know I can get more. Like, I know I can. But, like, in that moment, you're like, I feel like I'm missing out. I feel like I did something wrong.
Hiba Amin [00:15:14]:
I think had I not talked to other people, like Bridget, and heard that this was something that was normal and that other people were going through. I think that is just such an easy way for that to be an ego. Like a hit to the ego right away of like, did I suck? Did I not do a good job? Like, what's going on? Because, yeah, it all just happens within the same, like, two, three weeks. Even leading up to it, I had just said no to the first person ever. I was like, you know what? Everything is stable. I'm going to say no because this doesn't. I don't think I'm going to be as effective or, like, even cost effective to this person. And the work doesn't necessarily excite me right now.
Hiba Amin [00:15:52]:
And that was the first time. And as soon as I said no, the week after, I had, Polly had cut their budget, and they were like, we ended off on such great terms. And so I didn't take it personally, which is good. And I'm, like, still in touch with them and everything. But Poly was the first. And then another company, they needed to increase their profits because they were going through some things internally. So they were like, we have to cut your hours in half. And that all happened within the same week.
Hiba Amin [00:16:16]:
And I was like, oh, like, should I not have said no? And that was my first moment of panic. Or I was like, okay, maybe that was a stupid decision. But I held firm. I was like, I'm not gonna go back. All the reasons still apply as to why I should have said no. But being able to hear other people going through the same things was nice because it's like, oh, no. This is just like an everyone situation. This is just what happens at the end of the year, I guess, rather than like, hiba, you are terrible at what you do.
Hiba Amin [00:16:41]:
At least that was, like, nice that we could all be like, oh, we all suck together.
Nick Bennett [00:16:45]:
I relate with a lot of this across the board. I think the One thing is trying to manage saying no. Because you're like, today I need to say no. But if someone leaves, then that no's a yes. But you're like, I can't anticipate that. And how do you set up, like a wait list? Or is it possible to stack or start dates? Like, all of those things are always part of the process of figuring out, especially when you work on retain. Like, if you're working on really clearly defined projects or productized service makes things, it's a totally different ball game. But when you're working on retainers and the work is essentially evergreen, like, we work until we don't, it's hard to say, like, well, I can stagger this start date.
Nick Bennett [00:17:32]:
If you don't have someone else ending. There's a lot to that. That's a point of friction that my own business that I've been trying to solve for, and I've tried to put bookends on my own work where it's like, okay, I know that in six months that this, this program is going to be over. I call them programs instead of projects for whatever that's worth. Because it's like, it's a programmatic approach. If we end here, I can at least know 30 to 60 days out that I can try to stagger a start date or something like that in there, just to give yourself a little bit of breathing. But yeah, I mean, it's the evergreen work that's brutal.
Hiba Amin [00:18:06]:
That's all I. I've really focused on, I think, because that's just where I feel like I get a bit more excited about the work too. And maybe it's just a lack of time. And I've conversations with Bridget too. It's like, how do we build that programmatic approach to our work? And like, I've had overlapping clients with Brendan Hufford, and every time I see his programmatic approach, I'm like, that's genius.
Nick Bennett [00:18:25]:
Like, I know I said the same thing to him.
Hiba Amin [00:18:27]:
I'm like, I don't know what to build to, like, offer, like, something for, like, the stage when I come in after he's done all of his work, like, how do I make that programmatic? I don't know. And so the evergreen at least feels easier, better for me at this point. But also, given the nature that I come from a startup background, like, there's also not consistency in the type of work I'm doing with clients. Like, with one company for a while, I was doing life cycle marketing, which I was very upfront of. I Am not an email marketer. I'm not a life cycle marketer at all. And they were like, well, you're a generalist. And that's perfect because you can help with other parts of the business too, and then try and figure this thing out.
Hiba Amin [00:19:03]:
Which, you know, by the end I was still not a lifecycle marketer, but we did something. But for the most part, yeah, I do try and stick with content as much as possible. But yeah, again, because it's early stage companies, for the most part, they're like, we just need marketing.
Nick Bennett [00:19:16]:
Like, do anything, make some noise.
Hiba Amin [00:19:19]:
So even to like, start thinking through, like, what's the programmatic piece? I'm like, I don't know, it's just a spectrum right now. But maybe it's kind of like putting in the works that I get the clients that I want and have that repeatable process. But I don't know. It feels almost like a chicken and an egg thing where I'm like, I just need to produce revenue for myself right now and focus on activities that are driving that. Even though this could, you know, obviously long term be better. My headspace, it just feels wrong to work on that kind of stuff when it's not driving revenue today.
Nick Bennett [00:19:52]:
Because if you're not working on client work, then we're not getting paid. I agree with you. I had Brendan on the show a couple months ago and he talked a lot about his, like, his growth sprint approach. He found a great way to blend how customized his output is with a highly productized, like, way of delivering. Not everyone gets the same thing. And I've been calling this approach, like, niche on the problem. Like, he doesn't necessarily niche down in a really traditional way that we see most people think about it. It's not like all hyperverticalized or horizontal positioning.
Nick Bennett [00:20:33]:
It's just he's niched down on a really specific problem. And then he applied, like, I've heard people call it, like, ruthless with their scope. It's like, this is the thing, this is the approach. It seems like probably one of the most effective ways to go about doing this work where it kind of gives you the amount of room you need to play, but also. So it's like, here's the thing you're going to get without waiting for someone to come to you and say, here's a list of problems I have. Can you help me solve any of them?
Hiba Amin [00:21:00]:
Yeah. Which feels like it's probably much better for his mental health at the end of the day too.
Nick Bennett [00:21:06]:
Well, you should listen to the episode he talks a lot about that, too. He's like, I have permanently damaged a lot of my body because of this work. But, okay, so I saw you. You posted a video the other day about you can't use AI until you find your Shrek. And I thought this was a hilarious analogy. And can you quickly explain this analogy real quick again? And then I want to know, what is your Shrek?
Hiba Amin [00:21:32]:
I was doing this talk on AI for content marketing. It was my first conference talk ever. And I procrastinated this whole thing of trying to figure out, like, a good presentation, because I was like, this works on webinars, but it's probably not going to be too good, like, in a live setting. And I had a dream about Shrek, and then I presented Shrek and I was like, whatever way I'm going to make this work, we are making it work. Because that's weird and hilarious. And basically, I think the whole premise of it is that I think the start of it was really just around. So there's this thing called the Dunning-Kruger effect, when people who have no skills start using something and they have almost like this peak where they have so much confidence at the start, like, they are overly confident and they shouldn't be. They don't have enough knowledge to properly use this technology.
Hiba Amin [00:22:17]:
And I guess I would kind of compare that to watching a Grey's Anatomy episode or any medical drama. You have all of these, like, early residents or students. They're like, I can perform surgery in my first year by myself. Like, no, you can't. You shouldn't. Like, this is why you're learning. And I think it's kind of the same thing with AI, where we are all like, oh, my God, I'm prompt engineering expert. I can do all these things.
Hiba Amin [00:22:40]:
I can scale content 10x because this thing's just generating content for me. But then when you actually start to put it in practice, you realize, like, oh, okay, it's actually not good content. Like, I'm not using this too well. And so I think kind of relating it to Shrek was if you don't have this core piece of content like that, you've put in a lot of work. You've really figured out something that connects with your audience that people can gravitate towards, that has all these human elements that make content great and that make people want to pay attention. If you don't have that initial idea, then what you're scaling is not good. Like, you're just scaling garbage. You're going to keep producing more and More content with AI and it's going to be such, like, this massive amount of quantity, but there's no substance to it.
Hiba Amin [00:23:27]:
And so people just aren't going to pay attention anymore. They're actually going to probably do the opposite. And so if you have that concept that is working, that you've spent the time and energy to produce, that's connecting with your customers. Yeah, use AI to help scale that. Then you can kind of tackle, because you're scaling something that's really good and you have kind of the recipe or understanding of whether it's the topic, the type of content, the format, whatever that might be, you understand what's connecting. And so scaling that is great. And so when we kind of put it into the perspective of Shrek, like Shrek 1, I think, is one of my favorite movies, to be honest. Like, it's amazing.
Hiba Amin [00:24:03]:
My poor husband like it similar to just creature of habit. I like eating smash burgers. I like watching Shrek when I don't know what else to watch. I'm like, let's just watch Shrek. And he's like, no, absolutely not. We're done. And my response is, okay, we'll watch Shrek 2, which I think is also a great movie. But then as, like, the Shrek franchise, like, produces more, you're like, okay, these movies aren't actually very good, like, as they produce more.
Hiba Amin [00:24:25]:
And to me, that's kind of like, yeah, people are still going to go watch them. I'm still going to go watch the new movies. Doesn't matter if I don't enjoy them as much. I love Shrek 1, Shrek 2, so I'm going to keep wanting to invest my time into the story and how it progresses over time. But, yeah, you can use AI to produce Puss in Boots, like the spinoff. You can use AI to produce Shrek 5. I'll still watch it. I'm bought in.
Hiba Amin [00:24:49]:
I'm already part of this franchise. And so that's kind of the premise of really focus on making something that people want to pay attention to, they want to read or consume, and they connect with. And then you can start to use AI to scale. But if you are just using AI without understanding or building that Shrek, no one's going to pay attention. So that's my analogy.
Nick Bennett [00:25:12]:
So you're saying AI can't write Shrek 1? It might be able to probably not, like, write Shrek 2 with Shrek 3, 4 and 5. Like, just. You can write Shrek 3, 4 and 5 all day. You can write Puss in Boots. It can write all that other stuff, but it can't write Shrek 1. You need to write Shrek 1.
Hiba Amin [00:25:30]:
It's a much bigger franchise than I was anticipating. I was like, wow, there's a lot of people who probably also watch Shrek on their board. Like, great.
Nick Bennett [00:25:37]:
I feel like Shrek really made the idea of all of, like, the adult jokes very overtly obvious. Like, they really. Yeah. Popular thing. So at first when you were like, find your Shrek, I was like, you need to find, like, the weird, like, the jokes that go over children's heads. Okay. I love this. I love this concept.
Nick Bennett [00:25:57]:
I agree with this methodology wholeheartedly. As someone who is like, AI exists. Let's see what this bad boy can do. And you take it for a spin, and it just, like, poops out a horrible. Just like a bunch of words that no one would ever actually use in a normal piece of writing. You're like, okay, let's try that again. Here's a thing. I think.
Nick Bennett [00:26:19]:
Here's a catalog of things. I think. Here's what people have said about it. Like, connect some dots for me. And then it's like, here you go. Here's Shrek 3. And you're like, great, perfect. That's what we need.
Nick Bennett [00:26:31]:
And people are like, how did you make that connection? And you're like, Shrek 3, baby.
Hiba Amin [00:26:35]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:26:36]:
That's all you need to know. So what's your Shrek?
Hiba Amin [00:26:39]:
I haven't had, like, a. A Shrek I've felt very connected to in a while, but the one that I still connect to the most was during my time at Soapbox. That was when I was a solo marketer for the first time in my career, which was honestly really stressful because I didn't feel like I was senior enough for that. Yeah. And it was COVID. And it was just like everything was a pool of anxiety. But I love the people I worked with, so that was the silver lining. But it also kind of put stress on me to really want to create something cool.
Hiba Amin [00:27:11]:
And I. Yeah, I just got to have so much ownership and autonomy in that. And so maybe because I haven't had that level of autonomy since. Yeah, I don't know. I. Maybe I don't connect with things as much. But anyways, so box. Pretty much all we did was market to managers.
Hiba Amin [00:27:25]:
And that was super important to me at the time too, because I. I had an incredible manager and we had a really amazing CEO, like, very people oriented. They modeled the behaviors that we were telling our customers to model as well around how to just be a good human in the workplace for your team. And so we did so many customer calls. Most of them were from a lens of product. But as we started having more of these discussions, the main thing was especially first time managers, I don't know what to talk about. And any of these environments, like in any setting, whether it's putting someone on a performance improvement plan for the first time, or like just all these difficult conversations or the recurring ones of just like, what do I talk about in a one on one, I have no clue. So we started building out initially an agenda templates library.
Hiba Amin [00:28:11]:
And that's just a piece of content that I talk about nonstop. Even though it's like probably four years ago now. It's just something I was so proud of because we just were able to drive so much value to people and it helped them. Even if they didn't copy it word for word, they weren't looking at a blank page anymore. And this was pre chatgpt having its big boom. And so obviously things can change now where people can just go and ask AI. But for us, like, I think that would be the exact. If I were to use ChatGPT or build a workflow around creating content, it would be around that library because now we can think through so many other examples too.
Hiba Amin [00:28:49]:
And it was similar, I would say, to how Miro's built their entire template library as well, where we started sourcing templates from existing managers and the conversations that they're having too with their team. And so that also brought a bit more of a human element where someone's like, you know what, I actually really respect that leader. That's pretty cool. They're sharing what they talk about. If I want to be more like them, here's a way to do that in some capacity. And it just like adds that bit of credibility and trust into the content. But I would say for me, that was something that we so easily repurposed. And it worked because by the time I left any content around, our templates was driving 30% of our acquisition.
Hiba Amin [00:29:28]:
And so for me, I was like, okay, not only do I agree that this is good and our customer calls have kind of confirmed that, but strangers and people signing up for a product, they're agreeing with it too. Like we're getting all of these signals. And yeah, truly, I think that's been probably the most successful content piece I've produced in my career, that I've like at least fully owned myself because we just were able to keep growing it. And that for Me is that was actually one of the questions I got asked at the conference was like, what would you use AI for from a content piece you've produced? I'm like, yeah, if this was a big thing at that point, for sure that would have helped us scale so much faster. Rather than me just like really, really focusing on getting people to submit in some capacity, personal details. Because for some people, they're like, this is really personal. I don't want to share the questions I ask in a one on one or in these, like, difficult conversations. So, yeah, I would say that's, that's my Shrek.
Hiba Amin [00:30:21]:
Because I do still go back if I ever have like different one on ones. When I was in House at a couple other companies. After I left Soapbox, I kept going back to that library. I'm like, ooh, what do I talk about in this meeting? What do I talk about in that meeting? Like, so it was useful for me too, which is great.
Nick Bennett [00:30:35]:
I love this. So from an offer perspective, because that's the way that I see all the things in this world now. The Shrek marketing, it makes so much more sense. Like, here are examples of Shrek marketing. And then it's like, that's the thing you do. I deploy Shrek marketing at your business. I guess you go into, I write Shrek 1, most of Shrek 2, then boom, baby, we're off. And then you get the whole franchise.
Hiba Amin [00:31:03]:
It's actually been such a ridiculous, I would say like four months since this conference. Because now people just message me from the conference. They're like, I just talked to my team about the Shrek AI framework. I'm like, this is not real. Like, that's amazing.
Nick Bennett [00:31:16]:
Oh, it's very real. You are now known as the Shrek marketing consultant. You will forever be the Shrek marketing consultant. You have officially achieved Mindshare. It's over. Congratulations.
Hiba Amin [00:31:29]:
I need to get an affiliate link. I really need to work that. From DreamWorks if. Yeah, DreamWorks made it. I don't know if they still exist or I'm sure they've gotten acquired by someone.
Nick Bennett [00:31:39]:
Okay, so looking back, what's something you would have done differently?
Hiba Amin [00:31:44]:
Better boundaries? I think that was something that I always struggled with even in house. And Bridget and I again have talked about this where I feel like we just care a little too much sometimes and it makes it hard to set those boundaries because I really try and go by the mantra of like, done is better than perfect. But sometimes I'm like, okay, but there has to be like a minimum for done as well. And so I think I end up overworking to just hit a quality bar that I'm happy with because I also want, you know, the clients to be happy too, but it's always at the expense of my day or my weekend rather than anything else. And so setting better boundaries for myself and what I'm willing to take on, I think, and what I'm willing to do as well, of, like, what is going above and beyond look like and what does just unrealistic look like? And then I think, completely off topic, but last year, when I incorporated, I hired quite possibly the worst accountants, and that caused so much stress. And so the one thing I would change too, was hiring different accountants, which now I'm much happier. But the second I see any kind of tax form, I just freak out because I'm like, if I put one piece of information wrong, I'm going to jail. Which is obviously not right.
Hiba Amin [00:32:58]:
But, like, I just panic where I'm like, I. I don't know how to read this form. Like, and every time I work with US companies and I get the W8 then or whatever it is, even though it's the same form every time, I panic every time because I'm like, oh, my God, what do I do? How do I answer this? Do I sign this as an individual? Do I sign this as an incorporation? Do I need to talk to a lawyer? But I don't want to pay a lawyer a thousand dollars to fill out a simple form form that, like, a normal person can fill out. And so, yeah, I think, like, just not stressing out maybe as much as I do whenever I see some of these new forms or pieces of paper as well, of, like, anything to do with taxes and, like, managing the business is just immediate panic mode.
Nick Bennett [00:33:37]:
I would say, yeah, I don't want to owe anyone any money. No, I don't want that at all. I'm. I'm with you. I had my first accountant was really bad. I thought I had a good accountant. And you're like, whoa. Well, how do you find out? Your accountant sucks the heart?
Hiba Amin [00:33:51]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:33:52]:
You're like, oh. Like, that was not fun.
Hiba Amin [00:33:55]:
And thankfully, I. I fired them, like, right before it was time to file my first year of taxes as a corporation, because I was like, they're not responding to my emails for six months. This is not good. And I'm, like, messaging that. I'm, like, being pretty patient. Like, six months is a long time to just be like, yeah, what are you doing?
Nick Bennett [00:34:12]:
You're way more patient than I would.
Hiba Amin [00:34:13]:
Have Been, Yeah, I think I just didn't want to deal with it. So I was like, bah, this is not a problem for right now. And then I started interviewing other accountants, or not interviewing, but, like, just trying to see what it would look like to switch. And as I was sharing, I'm like, this is the advice they gave me. And consistently, everyone was like, that's outdated. That's wrong. You should probably not work with those people. I was like, okay, good to know, good to know.
Hiba Amin [00:34:37]:
But, yeah, at least the headaches stopped there. New accountants are great, which is awesome. But I think that was the tough piece in the first year, was just trying to find the right vendors to work with for the business. And I think at the start, too, and maybe this was like, too many lessons, but the initial thing that I found really hard was trying to find the balance where, you know, when you're in house, you have a lot more ownership in the decision. You also have a lot more accountability into the results of those decisions. And so I think it's a lot easier for you to have a bit more sway. Whereas I think when I got into, like, consulting land, I really had a tough time for a few months where I was trying to give advice to a client. I was like, I genuinely think this is a really bad idea for an approach because of X, Y and Z.
Hiba Amin [00:35:22]:
But for them, it was kind of just like, we don't care. We think this is, like, we strongly believe this is the right approach. And I think it was trying to find the balance of, like, we just have to kind of go with what they want and let it play out. And if they don't see the results. And I guess for me, I was like, let's just have everything documented that way. It can't come back on me. Almost. Even though if the budget's gone, the budget's gone, that still kind of comes back on me.
Hiba Amin [00:35:43]:
Either way, it was learning more to let go, which kind of makes it hard as well, going back to, like, we just care a lot sometimes. And you want to spend time doing work that you're proud of and you want to spend time doing work that you're excited about. And so if it kind of gets into a realm where you're no longer excited, I think the work will suffer. And so trying to find that balance as well, of how much do I push back, especially with one client, I do push back quite a lot because we've built that rapport now and that trust too. And it was actually quite funny, like, the one main contact I have. It was a couple of weeks ago and we'd been working together for a while. She was like, Hiba, sometimes you piss me off because you just like always like, have to have your opinion. But at the same time I love it because it helps me grow my knowledge and it helps me like.
Hiba Amin [00:36:31]:
She's like, I know you're always coming from a place of wanting to make sure that we have high quality content and that we're like, doing the right things. But it just made me laugh too because I was like, yeah, honestly, you piss me off too. But like, you know what, we can come back and laugh about these things. It's not just like a angry relationship. Like in those moments we both have, I guess in certain things, maybe stronger opinions. And so I just, I found that like such a funny comment to make. And it just made my day to be honest because I was like, okay, like we like get on under each other's skin, but at the end of the day, the company is the thriving as a result. Because we're not just kind of saying like, okay, your idea wins today.
Hiba Amin [00:37:10]:
It was kind of like, let's, let's not even try to find a compromise. Let's talk through it and make the best decision whether it's your idea or mine or neither. That was maybe the other thing was, how do I balance, like having enough of an opinion and not.
Nick Bennett [00:37:22]:
First of all, you can't care more than your clients. And when you find yourself caring more than your clients, it is like a really sobering reality where you're like, oh, shit, like, this isn't going to work out. One of the things that I love most about being on my own though, is that you can push back in a way that you can't at a full time employer. You can, but every time you do it, you're like, no matter how great of a relationship you have with whomever the person is that you're trying to dissent, you're like, if I lose this job, then I lose all the money versus if I lose this client, I'll just go get another client or I'll just like, it's just part of the money. And so I totally agree. And learning to push back is a skill for sure. And being able, like developing as a coach. This is one of the things that kind of struck me recently, and I've been talking a little bit more about it, is this idea of developing as a coach.
Nick Bennett [00:38:17]:
Like, you're not necessarily a content coach. You're a consultant and an advisor. You help people navigate Content marketing. But our ability to coach is key in being successful at what we do. And developing as a coach is a huge part of this work that I never really thought much about because it, it allows you to amplify all the things that you're doing or just like your ability to be successful and get people kind of out of their own way sometimes, whatever the thing is. So, yeah, I totally, totally get what you're saying there. I also think that if, if you care more than your clients care and you spend too much time on that business, like you grow resentful of that client engagement and then it becomes like quickly deteriorates. So yeah, trying to like make sure you can manage all that appropriately and it's not like something that you can do one and done or like you just figure it out.
Nick Bennett [00:39:16]:
Like you have to have enough client relationships that go in different directions and kind of evolve into whatever the thing is to be able to push back or to like show people certain things. Okay, let's end here. So what do you want to build? What is next for this business? Like, what do you want to build that you haven't built yet?
Hiba Amin [00:39:34]:
I think in the past year, the most exciting work that I've done has really been building up a company's blog from something that doesn't have a lot of content or not even a lot of relevant or good content for their customers and supporting them in building, you know, a writing roster and guidelines and a brand voice. And I find like that entire end to end editorial process just so fun. And it's also just maybe for me where I've helped people be the most successful. And so ideally, if those are more of the clients that I can close, that's more exciting to me. And on the other end is just how do I work with more people? And so a little similar to how it was kind of it's been like Brendan. And then I come into the process is like, how do I actually work with other solopreneurs like Bridget and kind of take on clients together? Because I think something that I've really been feeling, especially in the last year as like a fractional marketer is just loneliness. To be honest, that's been a big thing that I'm trying to change this year. Because remote work is one thing, but you still get to continue to build relationships with the people around you and your team.
Hiba Amin [00:40:46]:
But like remote consulting, you're like, I'm only going to talk to this client maybe for a half hour this week. And we're not talking about our lives for the most part, like, maybe for a minute or two. But we're going deep into the work because they want to maximize your hours. And so I've been going a little stir crazy where, like, I go to a coworking space. I get to see people that I slowly built those relationships with, but it's still lonely. You're like, I'm just by myself. Like, I'm going crazy. And so I even went to a coffee shop in my neighborhood to say, like, I will work for free here if you let me come in for like four hours a week.
Hiba Amin [00:41:19]:
Like, I just want to talk to people. Like, that is my goal. And they were like, we will pay you, because that's probably illegal. I was like, fair, fair point. So I think, yeah, those are the two things I really want to change is how do I figure out and find more clients that fit the work that I enjoy doing the most? And the other piece is how do I just do cool work with people more often and how do I incorporate, like, more human. Proper human interactions and having more recurring conversations with people that I care about and just doing cool work and feeling less lonely. So, yeah, I would say those are my two goals for this year.
Nick Bennett [00:42:00]:
John Bonini referred to it as this, our clandestine Slack community. And that place has been one of my favorite places on the Internet lately because it is small enough to feel like, oh, I can share stuff in here. But it's also big enough where you can get opinions from people who are in kind of all different, varying stages of the journey. Like, people who are way further along and have been doing it for really this work for a really long time. And people who are really new who are saying like, hey, like, these are like, they don't have the curse of knowledge or the pattern blindness that we have that we've been doing it for as long as we have, which is not long in the grand scheme of things.
Hiba Amin [00:42:37]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:42:37]:
So, like, I encourage everyone to find their own clandestine Slack communities of people to. To join. One of the things you said you're like, how do you partner with people like Bridget to be able to take on work together? This is something that I have been doing more lately. With Erica Schneider, we launched our own program. This, like, group coaching, more asynchronous program, but for the private consulting clients. I was like, why aren't we just doing that as one thing?
Hiba Amin [00:43:06]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:43:07]:
And there's two ways to do it. It's still the same thing. It's like, there's the done with you and done for you. The price is the same. It's not like you go from one person to the other person and it makes things so much easier. And it's been super well received. Just like my own personal experience with this, like, people to just make the offer is basically it. When I was like, hey, we could just do this thing, and everyone's like, oh, cool.
Nick Bennett [00:43:30]:
Like, no one is against those things. Part of it was in my head, like, being able to just get over this mental hurdle that was like, just pitch it that way. It's just baked into the cake. And it was like, if you want to run plays with Bridget, go there and go. Go tell somebody. This is the play we run. And they're going to be like, oh, that sounds great.
Hiba Amin [00:43:48]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:43:48]:
Be so surprised.
Hiba Amin [00:43:49]:
Yeah. I think it's always just like, ooh, will people pay this, like, for two people instead of one? Like, I don't know. Maybe. But I guess we've been closing the door on ourselves without even letting it knock, I guess. I don't know what the right analogy is there, but, yeah, we're closing our own doors before even trying. Like you said, just try. We just really need to just try.
Nick Bennett [00:44:08]:
This has been a lot of fun. Thank you for coming on, sharing your story with me. I really appreciate it. I know more people feel seen because of it, so thank you.
Hiba Amin [00:44:16]:
Oh, thanks for having me on. It was so good to, like, properly sit down and chat and get to know you better.
Nick Bennett [00:44:26]:
Hey, Nick, again, and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1000 Routes newsletter where I process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new and different future for your own business. You can sign up at 1000routes.com or check the link in the show notes. If you were to leave Earth in a rocket ship tonight, what would be your last meal here?
Hiba Amin [00:44:59]:
So it's either going to be a smash burger, which I just like love, or chicken fingers, which feels like such a child answer, but it's just. That's where the cravings go. Like, it's just so good.
Nick Bennett [00:45:12]:
They're. They're classics. I'm with you. I bought a Blackstone grill over the summer because I wanted to eat smash burgers more often.
Hiba Amin [00:45:21]:
Yeah, I think we. We got, like, the griddle attachment for our smoker and we're like, we're just gonna make smash burgers as offensive as we can.
Nick Bennett [00:45:28]:
I'm with you there. Are you like the classic, like, lettuce, tomato, onion, or do you go all out with all the stuff.
Hiba Amin [00:45:35]:
We make like a sauce with, like. Like, sriracha mayo with pickles and some salt and then just caramelized onions. And that's typically our toppings right now, the sriracha mayo.
Nick Bennett [00:45:48]:
All right, I'm coming over. Last meal. Just let me know.