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Welcome to The Admin Avenues Podcast!
In each episode, I’ll be chatting with inspiring Australian admin professionals, expert advisors, and a few surprise guests you won’t want to miss.
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Edited Audio
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[00:00:00]
Candice: Hello, and welcome back to the Admin Avenues podcast. I'm your host, Candace Burningham, and today we have special guest Steven Woods, who is the founder and director of Employee Wellness Australia.
Today, we're gonna be talking about future-proofing your most valuable asset, you, [00:01:00] preventing burnout in an always-on world.
So if you don't know of Steven, Steven~ Steven works for the Employee Well... No,~ he's the founder and director of Employee Wellness Australia, but he also is going to be facilitating the session on future-proofing your most valuable asset, you, at the Admin Avenues conferences.
So Steven, welcome to the Admin Avenues podcast. We're so excited that you could join us as one of our guests today but also as one of our keynote speakers for the national conference series.
So you're gonna be coming all over, to Brisbane, Sydney, and Adelaide., And your session is called Future-Proofing Your Most Valuable Asset, You, and I think it's ~one of the m- m-~ ones that every admin needs to hear about because burnout has just become such a common conversation.
and I don't think many of us truly understand what's happening or~ how we can,~ what we can actually do about it. So let's dive into today's session and get some highlights about what you're gonna be chatting about at the session.
So first of all, welcome. Tell us a little bit about you and about Employee Wellness Australia.
Stephen W.: Good morning.~ Uh, yeah,~ thanks for having me. yeah, so, well, the goal of Employee Wellness [00:02:00] Australia is how do we enhance an employee's wellbeing when they're at work? And one of the things we've found is that, tying into today's conversation is that employees, and specifically admins give a lot for everyone else and often they, they don't give a lot for themselves and so hopefully today and throughout the workshops and the sessions that we're running, is we're gonna open up admins' eyes to w- maybe what burnout is, what it looks like, what it feels like, and then some actionable steps on what they can do.
And I want to come in at some different angles as well today and, get people really thinking and try and get the cogs turning in the brain,
~uh,~ into ~what it, ~what it could be and, hopefully give some insights
Candice: Yeah. I mean, the biggest feedback I get is, "Yes, I'm burnt out. Yes , I have been sick from work because of burnout."
But no one actually seems to have the tools to get themselves out of them. They kinda just go through it [00:03:00] till it gets to a less burnout-y period and think that that's the answer.
So, burnout seems to have become a, almost a bit of a badge of honor in our profession, to be honest, ~uh,~ which is terrible.
~Uh, you know,~ People are always saying, "I'm exhausted, I'm burnt out, I'm running on empty," almost like it's just part of having a successful admin career, like that's just part of it. But, like, do you feel like burnout's become quite normalized?
Stephen W.: Yeah, absolutely. I think the busy is, is, busyness is a, a status symbol, and exhaustion and being tired is the, the proof that you're committed to the job. And when most people say they're burnt out, it's, it's the same way they say like, "I'm hungry." You know, it's kind of lost its weight a little bit with, pardon the pun.
Candice: Yeah.
Stephen W.: You know, and like real burnout is, a real thing.~ You know, it's,~ it's not just a busy week.~ It's,~ it's the state that your body and your nervous sy- system ends up in after months of [00:04:00] no real recovery. And the danger of normalizing it is that it removes the warning light. I- if everyone's running on empty, then, then nobody's flagging it.
Nobody's gonna bring it up. And so I would rather people stopped using burnout as the kind of shorthand for tiredness. You know, 'cause we, we all get tired. ~You know, may-~ you might have had a bad sleep. But what we wanna do is when someone is genuinely struggling with it, then
that's when we can address it and talk about it
Candice: I've never seen so many sick people this year, and I truly believe it's from burnout. Uh, I've-- I, I know that health also comes from, you know, obviously catching colds and things like that. But I know firsthand three people with pneumonia this year. I know firsthand a bunch of admins who have ended up with, ~um,~ an autoimmune disease from stress. Like, th-they're not actually catching on that this is all avoidable i-if you have the tools. So we'll, we'll dig into that, but it's just [00:05:00] something I've noticed this year that this has really become a problem, which is why I think it's such a huge issue that we need to talk about. But look, admins are natural problem solvers, right?
So we're the people pe- like, that come to, we absorb everyone else's stress, we solve problems before anyone even knows they exist. ~You know, what, ~what does that make admin professionals particularly vulnerable to burnout? Like, if that's kind of the role,
how do we protect that?
Stephen W.: Well, let's go back and just think about admins for a second 'cause admins are, are like the shock absorbers for the organization. You know, everyone else's problems land on their desk, and they try to solve it before it becomes visible, which means their workload is invisible by design. ~If you've,~
if you've done your job well, uh, the perception is if you've done your job well, then nobody will notice there's been a problem. But that's a burden on you. then there's also the kinda constant low [00:06:00] lev- level vigilance. You know, you're always like scanning, anticipating, you're trying to catch things.
You're looking out for things before they, they happen. And so that part can be quite exhausting as well. Then you've got the responsibility for your, your role with... If we're thinking about psychosocial hazards, it's high responsibility but low job control, if you think about that. 'Cause a lot of the stuff and a lot of the tasks are coming from senior leaders, CEOs, directors, you know.
So~ you can't do much.~ You can't really say no to your director. You know, it's somewhat frowned upon. And so you're, you're accountable for a lot of the outcomes, but you don't, you
don't own that part of the job.
And so, that can be one of the strongest predictors of burnout that we have. And then on top of that admins are usually the last to ask for help because if they're asking for help
it seems like the systems that they've built aren't running smoothly.
that's what I've found the, the perception is.
Candice: Yeah. [00:07:00] They'll be the last
people that ask for help
Stephen W.: Yeah. And so that makes them particularly kind of vulnerable to burnout
and fatigue
Candice: Yeah. So one thing that's really stood out in your keynote description is that burnout isn't actually about working too hard. I think this might surprise people because they think if I work myself to the bone, I'll just get it done, and if I just get over that hurdle, then I'll be okay. And it's like, no, that's not what burnout is.
So
can you explain now what burnout actually is?
Stephen W.: Yeah, so if we think about burnout, it's... Or if we think about stress, you know, it's sustained demand without adequate recovery. And so being stressed~ is,~ is fine as long as you can recover for, from it. I think about it like a, a phone. ~You know, if you are, if you use it,~ you can use your phone hard all day, but you've got to recharge it again at night.
And as long as you recharge it fully each night, you can use it just as hard the next day. But [00:08:00] if you only charge it to 30% and then you try and use it hard the next day, it's going to get to a point where it, it probably runs out.
Candice: Mm-hmm.
Stephen W.: And so that's why taking a holiday or take the holiday doesn't fix it.
It's a short-term fix. Like, you might be fine. Usually what happens in that situation is?
the first week you get, you start relaxing, you get into the holiday, then you get sick. A- and usually you get sick because the body's now recovered to a level where it can start fighting off disease and illness and these viruses and bacteria.
And so then you get sick, you know, you go, "Geez, this always happens when I'm on holiday." And then the next week you're spent, or you spend a few days maybe sick, and then you, you manage to switch off, and then it's boom, back into work. But nothing changes when you get back into work. You know, you're just getting to that point where you're not recharging yourself each and every night.
And so the, the load isn't the [00:09:00] problem, it's the absence of being able to return to
your baseline which is the problem
Candice: And you talk about the
nervous system as well. So most people hear that term but don't really know what it means in relation to work. So how do-- and this is a big call to ask you to make, but how do our
nervous systems affect the way we show up every day?
Stephen W.: Yeah. So if we, if we simplify it, we think we've got two parts to our nervous system. We've got a, a parasympathetic, which is what everyone would know or most people would know as rest and digest. And then we've got a sympathetic nervous system, which is a, a fight, flight~ or, ~or freeze. And so your nervous system is constantly asking one question, which is, "Am I safe right now?"
Or, ~"Am- ~can I survive this situation?" And you've probably heard the age-old analogy of, you know, there's a, a saber-toothed tiger. You know, you have this, you has- you have this fight, flight or freeze response. [00:10:00] You know, and everyone's a little bit different in their makeup, but, but essentially the same process happens whether you're, you're seeing a saber-toothed tiger or you get an angry email at 3:00 p.m.
on a Friday. You know, you get the, the stress response, adrenaline. You know, you get energy which is sent to your extremities, which is your arms and your legs, which if you're a saber-toothed tiger, that can help you get a run away, get away faster. You know, inflammatory markers are increased because if you get cut or you're injured, then it'll stop the bleeding a lot faster, you know.
And so for us, it's blood pressures increases, inflammatory markers it increases, but we're sitting in the office, you know, so we can't utilize these things. Which again, is okay if it's short-term. But if we get the angry email at 3:00 p.m. on a Friday, we're thinking about it Friday night, we're thinking about it Saturday morning, Sunday, next week until we can email them [00:11:00] back or address the situation.
And so that's not acute stress. This is leading to chronic stress. And so this is where, where part- the nervous system, shows up, and this is where, it's things like difficult conversations or your inbox is getting out of control, and it shifts you into this state of stress which you're not recovering from, which then leads to when you think about, if we're thinking back to the saber-toothed tiger and the, the, the inflammatory markers, blood pressure increases, our long-range vision switches on, long-term memory to remember exits and entries.
But when we're sitting in the office, that then dampens the short-term memory, which leads to what we'd know as brain fog. , So then all of a sudden we're forgetting things that we're working on. You know, we forget where we put our keys. You know, you bizarrely you've got your keys that, that you've just found in the fridge.
All of these things happen when we're in a It's, it [00:12:00] happens. And so you, you start finding yourself where, ~you know, you're,~ you're getting a lot of repeated work because you're, you can't focus, you can't concentrate, you can't quite remember what you were working on. All of those things are how the nervous system is showing up when it comes to, we- let's call it stress or fatigue and burnout.
They're all kinda tied under the s- the same umbrella
Candice: I think because it's called nervous system, that also gives a false representation of, "I'm not nervous." It's like it's got nothing to do with that. It's the system, it's the nerves. It's, it's your whole body, all... there's a cross-reaction of everything. and to... As you're explaining these things, I'm thinking about the weekends that I would spend in my own head about that email that got sent on the Friday at 3:00 PM, and the added stress I would take of, how could you have done that differently and how can-- how are we gonna fix it, and what are you...
Like, so true that that is what it is for our profession. And as you said earlier, it's a lot of the time it's stuff out of our hands, but we still choose... not even [00:13:00] choose, we still take on that added burden or added stress or... I think about, you know, when my executive would be flying, I would wake up in the middle of the night to make sure that they got their flight on the other side of the world.
I didn't set an alarm. My nervous system woke me up in fear of them missing their flight. Now, they're grown adults. They know how to catch a flight. ~They, you know,~ they know what to do if they get stuck or anything like that, that if I was asleep, they could handle it, but my body didn't.
And I, I think that's just something admins don't really take on, is that we are in this constant state of that, particularly if you're working at a C-suite level.
Stephen W.: Yeah. I think humans, ~we're s-~ we're such amazing creatures. Like, we can literally think of something and create an, a stress response.~ You know, we can, ~we can think about, ~you know, ~a rollercoaster, and we can get the, the nervous butterflies that you get when you go down a rollercoaster.~ We can... We, ~we have dreams and nightmares [00:14:00] where we feel like it's the, the real thing, and it's the exact same stress response that happens, whether it's in your head and it's, it- if you perceive that it's real, or if it's, ~you know, ~actually happening, you've got a saber-toothed tiger in front of, like, of you.
Our, our bodies and our brains and our nervous system is just thinking, " How can I survive this situation?" And What I would say to people is your body and your brain are always working for you. ~They're just, if you, if you're-~
Whatever information you're feeding it, it's just working off of that.
So, if you're constantly feeding it the news, for example, ~you know, you, you...~
And l- I talk about ~mor-~ your morning routine. Are you, are you waking up in the morning? Are, are you being reactive? Are you being proactive? You know, so if you're waking up in the morning, maybe if... Let, in fact, let's go back a step. Let's go to the night before, you know. The night before, let's say you're f- you're sitting, you're watching TV, you're just watching a, maybe a scary movie or you're watching something on Netflix, you know.
And [00:15:00] from there, you, you, you get a bit jacked up 'cause you know what happens in Netflix. They leave you on a cliffhanger, and you can't stop thinking about what's gonna happen because they want you to watch the next episode.
In the meantime, you're also just having a, a, a bar of, like s- like some chocolate,
Candice: always
Stephen W.: And so, then we get, we get this, this increase in, in our blood sugar, you know. And then from there, maybe we're drinking tea, I don't know, water before we go to bed. And so then we go to bed, and we sit on Netf- uh, Facebook or Instagram, and maybe we get triggered off of someone. And all of a sudden you've got, this is just the night before, you've got your increased blood sugar, which could potentially affect your sleep.
Maybe you've, you've been drinking too much water before, and so you're gonna wake up in the middle of the night, so you're having a broken sleep. Or you can't quite get to sleep because you've seen that your friend Sarah is on holiday
again, and does she ever work,
Candice: Everyone during
Stephen W.: from there... [00:16:00] Yeah, and then from
there you, you have a broken sleep. you wake up a bit tired in the morning. When you're a bit tired and you've had a broken sleep, your hormones have got a bit out of whack. And so you have two hormones in specific, in, in particular who, that affect,, food regulation, so ghrelin and , One makes you feel full and one one increases your appetite and one stops you from feeling full.
Candice: Угу
Stephen W.: Okay? So all of a sudden you can't stop eating and you don't feel hungry, and so you start chasing energy drinks and you start chasing more food and sweet treats. And then you wake up in the morning and you turn on the news and you see everything that's happening in the world. That's gonna make you feel good, you know?
And then from there, uh, maybe you, you, you just smash down a coffee, you smash down whatever
it is, your energy drink
Candice: Whatever was
available,
Stephen W.: Whatever's
Candice: 'cause you're
rushing now
Stephen W.: Yeah. And maybe you've '
woken up a bit late for work because you, you, you didn't have the best sleep, and so now you're rushing off to work. You get
stuck in the traffic.
We [00:17:00] know what traffic's like. So fun.
Candice: That's always good for the
Stephen W.: And then... Yeah, and then we get into
work, and you think about admins in particular. You know, if, if an admin's a bit late for work, you know, you're co- you, you're constantly on the back foot. You feel reactive. And so this is essentially what happens on a day-to-day basis and, all of these things affect how you're gonna show up that day, as opposed to being proactive.
You know, and, and I think proactive behaviors come from being more aware of what could potentially be causing a poor sleep the night before. So I always look at what's your bedtime routine? How can you enhance your bedtime routine? it doesn't have to be, ~you know, ~super hard. You know, you think about your, your...
If everyone, well, most people who'd, I imagine, listening to this will have kids. What does your kids' bedtime routine look like? Especially kids under the age of maybe six, five, six, when you're still putting them to bed. You know, and most parents would agree [00:18:00] that when their kid has a be- a good bedtime routine, they have a better sleep.
They get to sleep faster. We are not much different from that. How can we enhance our bedtime routine? You know, make it almost like a kid's bedtime routine. Read, read a book, maybe a couple of pages of the book. You know, can we start winding down? Can we go maybe get a shower before bed? You know, all of these things are triggers to your
brain and your nervous system
saying, "I remember this situation.
This is what happens." We go for a shower. We read a couple of pages of the book. All of a sudden, your bra- brain starts winding down. For adults, maybe a brain dump, you know, getting all of the stuff out of your head onto paper. What have I got to do tomorrow? You know, from there, waking up in the morning, don't check the news.
Can you get up, do some gentle movement, whether that's exercise, going to the gym, going for a walk, stretching, I don't know, something, and then planning out your day. Again, similar to what you do with your kids. [00:19:00] You know, what does your morning routine look like? Are you fueling your body? Are you setting yourself up for success?
So Yeah, I mean, long story short there, your nervous system shows up in, in,
many different ways, uh, especially when you're
Candice: yeah, I'd like to challenge our listeners and say, from what just Stephen just said, how many of you follow a bed routine or a morning routine? I know I don't. I am the worst person in the world for these, and this is why I have to sit in on these sessions to learn these things for myself. 'Cause I still act like an admin, even though I'm now moved into my own business.
I'm still an EA for myself, and I still do some virtual executive supports. But ~it's, it's-- Uh,~ I will never stop being that person that is, is thinking this way or what could I have done or, you know, this is on Monday or... Even though I, I, I've been doing this for such a long time, I don't know why, twenty-odd years later, I haven't been able to put in~ a, a,~ a decent routine either side of my sleep pattern.
I do sleep well, [00:20:00] though. Like, I, I'm blessed to be able to sleep well I know that that's like, you know, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. Like, people used it in war. ~Um,~ I'm lucky I can sleep, but as to how much quality sleep I'm giving myself ~is a,~ is a different picture. And as you said, people with kids, ~uh,~ like I'm talking to admins at the moment who have sick kids like nobody's business.
So you've got kindy sickness that everyone brings. The whole family gets it. You've got school holidays sickness. They all go to camps and they're like... So you're battling sickness, They're not having good sleep 'cause they're bunged up and you're now sick and they're like... We get it, guys.
It's awful. Particularly, there's a double load on women, and ninety-eight percent of the listeners~ will be,~ will be women, ninety-nine, I think. ~Uh,~ we get it. But this is about you, and this is about creating these new habits for you. ~Um,~ so I think~ we just,~ we have to take responsibility for this, and this is why I have this, your session as our opening session at each conference, because it's a topic that I find is [00:21:00] just so important, and we're just not well-versed in it.
We're not trained in it. We need to do better in it. So onto that, I'd love you to paint a bit of a picture here. What does someone operating in a survival mode actually look like? Like, what are the signs people should be paying attention to before they reach full burnout?
Stephen W.: Yeah. Yeah, so again, I want to clarify that burnout is a real thing. You know, it's not laziness, it's not procrastination. It's, it's, it's a real thing.
And so, when you're in that survival mode, it's the type of thing where you feel like you've been busy all day, but you can't really name what you've done.
the small things that seem disproportionately hard, you know, from a short email to a manager and you're like, "I just don't know where to start with this." It's being, as I said before, reactive rather than proactive. You know, you're, firefighting, you're not planning. ~Everything, ~everything seems like it's urgent.
And usually it's the sleep that goes first [00:22:00] 'cause you either can't get to sleep or you're waking up at 3:00 a.m. with a, a mental to-do list, you know. And sometimes like that happens to us all. You know, I even, again, I say this ' cause I've, I experience it, you know, I'm a business owner. I've got, we've got teams and, I get it, you know.
But, but it shouldn't be the norm, you know. And if it can happen once or maybe twice, you know, then that's when you've got to address it. Then you start getting this withdrawal. You know, you, you stop going to things, you stop replying to your friends. You maybe go quiet. And that's usually the one that your partner would notice before you do.
And then it's the cynicism. You know, it's, it's the shift from "I'm tired" to " Everything's annoying me." You know, "This company's rubbish. I hate this person. This person's doing..." You know? And so that's what the, I think the phases of being
in survival looks like.
Candice: Gosh, I feel like you're, you're in my head. [00:23:00] I think you're gonna be in-- feel like so many people will be like, "He's talking to me. He's, he, he, he knows me. He's, he's talking my story." Look, so many admins tell me that they feel guilty when they stop, even taking a lunch break. They, they feel like that's an hour they could have got work done.
~You know, why,~ why are we so bad at this? Why are we so bad at taking a break or
recovery?
Stephen W.: Well, I think like our worth is tied to how much we can get done. So our worth is tied to output. So if, if we're not producing, like what are we actually worth? And I... nobody says it out loud, but I think plenty of people believe it. And then having rest and taking your lunch, for example, is, you know, I don't know if it's so, so much laziness, but it's, it should be a legitimate part of your day.
And I always talk about if you're saying... There's al-always an opportunity cost, and if you're saying No to taking lunch, and what, you can take what, [00:24:00] 20, 30 minutes for lunch, you're saying No to energy and productivity and refueling yourself and, And taking away some of that mental load. You know, and, and then there's the, the psychosocial piece, which, or the psychological piece, which is, , you've been running a state of stress for so long that you do feel guilty.
You know, your body isn't used to it, your mind isn't used to it. And so that calm kind of registers a bit, as a bit uncomfortable. And admins are constantly surrounded by the evidence of stuff that still needs done. You know, you've got a, a never-ending to-do list. So it's, it's hard for admins to switch off when things are sitting there waiting to get done.
And you don't get rewarded to, for recovery, you know?
But it's, it is the thing that makes the next thing possible. It makes tomorrow possible. So you can be much more productive in the time that you have if you [00:25:00] do start focusing on y-yourself. And I always say that people, you've got to focus on yourself first.
No one else is gonna focus on you.
Candice: Nope
Stephen W.: And it doesn't matter how much they value you. You know, they, they just don't compute your feelings. You know, y-you ever had someone who says like, you know, "I've broke my finger." And you're like, "Oh, that must be annoying." But you don't really compute how annoying a broken finger is or a broken toe is.
You're like, "Oh, it's just a..." But until you do it, you go, "Ah, that... When I broke my finger, I can't do anything. You know, I can't hold anything. I can't type properly. I can't carry things." And you go... But, but until you experience it, you never really get it. And so your CEO and director, they're never gonna understand fully what it's like being an
admin,
because all they're thinking about is
Candice: Yes. And I don't remember ever anyone
ever coming up to me and going, Hey, Candace, go and take a lunch break. Hey, Candace, get up and go for a [00:26:00] walk. Stretch your spine." No one's ever gonna say
that to you If you're gonna sit there and work, they're not gonna say
no
Stephen W.: , I'm not saying this stuff is easy. This is challenging, you know, 'cause there is the guilt part. You know, if someone comes up and says, "Hey, Candice, can you do this for me And then you say, "Yeah, I'm just on my lunch." It can often sound or come across the wrong way, you know.
But it doesn't always have to be like that. It can be a case of like, "Yeah, I'll get it done." You know, put, add it to the to-do list. "When would you like this done? What, uh, so what's the time period?" You know, "Yep, sweet. We'll prioritize that and we'll make sure we get it
done."
Candice: tip for that is if someone approached my desk without me asking them to or them booking a time with me would be, "Can you put it in an email?" So that they had to go back to their desk and then put it into a format that I
would then get to when it suited me.
Stephen W.: Yeah. And
Candice: is a
Stephen W.: that's actually that what-
Candice: of people coming to your desk and expecting that you drop [00:27:00] what you're doing 'cause they're there
Stephen W.: Yeah. and even if you,
if you find this really challenging, which I know a lot of admins listening to this are gonna find it challenging, is can you take 15 minutes for yourself, you know, instead of half an hour? And can you just leave the office? Because that's where you're not gonna get any interruptions.
And maybe you say, and I, I know a lot of admins No chance. I can't leave the office." I'm sure if you said, and I could be wrong, but if you said... And I think about myself 'cause I've got an EA as well, right?
So if my EA said, " hey Steve, I'm just gonna nip out for, for lunch for 15 minutes.
Uh, do you need anything from me at the moment?" It's probably gonna be, "Nah, all good. Look, I'll be back in 15. If you need anything, just send me an email and I'll get back to me, to you when, when I get back."
I'd be absolutely fine with that. I wouldn't even blink an eyelid. Even if they said half an hour, I'd be like, "Right, okay.
Anything that I can do in the next half an hour is fine." You know? Or I'll just say, "Hey, can you do it... Can you put [00:28:00] this in an email?" Or I'll put it, in an email and then send it, to them. But again, I know everyone works for different sized companies here, you know, and so they might have some directors or CEOs that they have been highly available for, and they've never left the office.
Just even, you know, opening up the conversation,
hey, director, CEO, look, I'm gonna... One of my goals over the next month is, is I'm gonna try and take my lunches because I've found that I'm getting a bit tired and a bit fatigued, and I just wanna make sure I'm refueling myself and, and able to give the best for you.
Do, do you think that'd be okay? Like, is that okay with
You
You
Candice: it, it, it's legal. You are, legally
entitled to this, and I just think that's a problem
Stephen W.: I know you're legally, and I get that, but I know a lot
of admins on here are gonna think, "It doesn't matter if it's legal. I don't get this or I don't get this." And, and so even just if you wanted to open [00:29:00] up the conversation and just say, "Hey, that's my, this is my goal for the next 30 days. I'm really gonna focus on it.
Do I have your support?" You know, legally, director, CEO can't say no. But also there's a bit of peace of mind that you go, "Right, okay, I got it approved. You know, they're on board with it. They understand my goal, and they understand why I'm trying to do this. It's not because I want to take more time off.
It's not because I'm being lazy. It's because I want to be able to be productive And, focused for you so that I can give you more."
you know,
and flip the narrative a little bit
Candice: And, You know, the-- they would probably say, "Good, go. G-go, go for a walk." Take... Like, it's, it's a good thing for everybody. They also might want 30 minutes away from you. Like, I know I used to be such a pest to my CEOs because I am a red personality, so I'm now, now, now, results, results. If I can get something done now, it's gonna be done now.
Like, they probably wanted half an hour away from
[00:30:00] me. So I think, yeah, it could definitely be a win-win.
Stephen W.: Yeah,
Candice: Yeah. Um, I think there's also a misconception, uh, that resilient people just push through. I-is resilience really about pushing harder, or have
we misunderstood what resilience actually means?
Stephen W.: No, I think resilience... So if we think about
resilience, I think resilience is the ability to recover. You know, so it's not that we're never gonna get stressed and we're never gonna get fatigued or tired, but it's how fast can you return to your baseline when something or someone knocks you off that. And so the most resilient people that I know, they're, they're not the toughest people, you know, but they're the best at adapting and coming back and keep going.
They've got quick, reliable ways to bring themselves back, you know? And so in that [00:31:00] sense, resilience is trainable. ~You know, it's, it's a,~ it's a capacity issue. It's not a personality trait. You know, I, I always say that if the hardest thing you've ever had to do is change your car tire, you know, it's still the, the hardest thing you've ever had to do.
You know? So the perception is the same for ~y- you know,~ I kind of give a, a l- a, a rich Silicon Valley kid who the, the, the tires burst to a kid who grew up in the slums with no food and no water and had to go. The perception for that kid who grew up in the slums is like, "What a blessing to have to change my car tire ~if a kid from the slums, you ~
~know, had a f- a flat tire, they're thinking, "What a blessing." You know? This is the, the... ~Compared to what I've been through in life, this seems so easy. You know, I can figure this out, you know, because I've been hungry and tired and, and we've got one of our guys, John, ~who,~ who grew up in the Philippines, very similar situation, and he talks about resilience and, and he says that, that resilience is just, it's, [00:32:00] it's just your conditioning to an exposure to stressful, s- difficult situations and finding a way to recover from it adequately.
You know, so boss comes in,~ you know, ~you've got a massive to-do list and, you know, if you're not focusing yourself and you're not, you've got, not got, we call it the buckets. You know, you've got all of these things coming into your bucket.~ You know, ~stress, life, work, tasks, to-do lists, urgent requests, you know, difficult conversations.
If you're just absorbing it, that's the point where you're gonna get burnout, fatigue, panic attacks, strokes, anxiety, depression, all of the, all of the above. But what are your outlets? You know, social connection. Are you spending time with friends? Are you making time to go out with your friends? You know, family, you know, are you...
Nutrition, you know, are you fueling yourself adequately, drinking water, focusing on your sleep? ~You know, do you,~ Have you got hobbies? And, and I think I mentioned this at one of the other ones is, you know, the amount of [00:33:00] people or the percentage of people over 30 who don't have one single hobby. And a hobby is something that can take your mind off of what you're thinking about in the day-to-day, and you can focus on it for about 30 minutes, but it's not exercise.
Exercise is different. Going to the gym is not your hobby, But it could be something like golf or paddle or guitar, playing an instrument, saxophone, knitting, art, ~you know,~ paint by numbers. You know, all of these things. Exercise is a different bucket. You know, walking's a different bucket. You know, but un- unless you're talking about hiking or trails, that sort of thing.
~Um, ~so I always encourage
people, try and get a hobby. Get something that you can focus
Candice: But again, that's something for you, isn't it? And that's where they struggle.
It, it, it, it's-- That's again forcing you to carve out time for you
And it seems to be 30 plus, you drop it.
I've got too many other things to do. I don't have time for me to do that. I don't..." You know. Someone [00:34:00] said to me the other day that their hobby was podcasts, and I said, "Is that a hobby?"
And she's like, "Well, yeah. Instead of listening to the news on the way home, I listen to a podcast that makes me feel good, and I find all these different podcasts that make me laugh and make me cry and make me..." I was like, "Okay. Yeah. If that, you know, can put your mind in a different setting and you spend half an hour laughing in the car, like, on your drive home, good for you.
If that's a, a bit of you time and you turn your phone on, um, airplane mode so that people can't call you
during that time and it's just a bit of me time, g- go for it."
Stephen W.: Now my partner loves these r-- like, I like educational podcasts or like interesting podcasts where I learn something. My partner's the opposite. She listens to like ones they just talk utter garbage. But they're enough-- they're actually quite humorous when you listen to them. You're like
Candice: Yeah
Stephen W.: just like
"Ugh,
Candice: Because
Stephen W.: listening to?" She like... But they're actually hilarious
Candice: it [00:35:00] feels like you're part... You're sitting in on the conversation, like you're
laughing
Stephen W.: Yeah. Yeah
And I suppose that social thing where you go, "Ah, right, okay, that's cool that other people think similar to me," or they normalize a lot of like these kinda situations or awkward situations that come up. But yeah
Candice: Well, when you spoke at the retreat, I remember you saying this, and I remember thinking in my head, "I didn't wanna come here this weekend." Like, I d- I didn't... I had so many other things on that I needed to do. The thought of having to go to a retreat and be with other people and all that, and I was just like, "Ugh."
And you're like, "You know, when h- when was the last time you got to be with people and belly laugh?" And y- all these examples that you were giving, I was like, " Actually, that's exactly what happened this weekend." We literally stayed up laughing. We were eating bickies. Like, Connie's mom makes these incredible, delicious treats.
We were eating bickies. We were laughing our heads off. We were just having fun, and then in the morning we did the [00:36:00] Pilates session with your partner, and then everyone had to connect again afterwards, and it was j- uh, uh, it was possibly the best thing I could have done, particularly for my nervous system.
Because I was on that path of, "I don't have time for this," and then it was a circuit breaker that made me stop and made me listen to a session like yours and made me do physical exercise and made
me have belly laughs with my friends
Stephen W.: So I, I play golf. I try and play most weeks, and I only took it up a couple of years ago because it... I was thinking, I was thinking as I get older, I want to have something that I can continue playing. And I was thinking of like sports that you can play and,~ um, uh, ~and then what I realized was that when I've played golf, even at the weekend there, I was playing with a guy who was 86,
right?
And he, he's playing... I know. And he's, he's with a crew of guys. One was 92, one was 86, the other... And he says he's the youngest in his group. They call him the youngster, right? And I was saying to [00:37:00] him too, like, I was like, "Do you know..." Like, 'cause we're going afterwards and we have a drink and we chill and we have a bit of conversation just with the group who you're playing with, and that's where you kinda get to know them a little bit more.
And so we were like... I was like, "Yeah, d- do you think like playing golf helps you... 'Cause you're active, you're fit." And he's like, yeah massively. ~It, it,~ it ticks so many boxes. I get out, I get to do e- my exercise. You know, I get to focus, so it's working my brain. I get social connection. I, I'm, I'm with my mates and I get to chat with people and stay around.
I get sunlight. I get... You know, I'm out and I, and I'm in a beautiful setting." You know, all golf courses are amazing. And it, it really got me thinking, you know, this, although there's a joke, ~uh,~ with people when they go and play golf, it, it really
does tick a lot of kinda healthy boxes
Candice: does My dad's nearly 80. He'll kill me
for saying that 'cause he's not even 79 yet.~ Um,~ but he does golf as well, and it is so [00:38:00] good. Like, everything you've just said is tick box of the social connection, the physical activity, keeping your body agile. Like, he doesn't have any mobility issues. He doesn't have any balance issues.
He doesn't... Like, 'cause he plays golf.
your mind, you're counting, you're thinking, you're strategizing, you're getting your body to move different ways. Like,
~such a good g-~ such a good game
Stephen W.: And, and so although golf might not be the thing for everyone, ~what,~ what I would take from this is where are you getting... Are you getting sunlight? Are you getting exercise? Are you getting social connection? You know, what, like, like how can you tick more of these boxes? Because in turn, that's gonna help you with stress, anxiety, burnout, and fatigue
Candice: Yep. and
this is also why the Australian Institute of Office Professionals, AIOP as we fondly call it, does in-person networking, because that's exactly what we need to do, is bring the admins together for these social connection reason,~ reason, reas-~ reasons. By the time this gets out, I don't know if it will have happened by now, but the [00:39:00] Queensland crew are having a rooftop event on, uh, Virgin, uh, Australia's rooftop in Brisbane.
So it will be exactly all of that, sunlight, friends, good times, fresh air. Like those are the things that you, you have to make time to do. Go and see, be at, chat with people, laugh, share what's going on in your life. I know that you can get to the end of the day and you're like, "Ugh, I just couldn't think of anything worse than having to go to a networking event right now."
But they're not networks, they're, they're, they're your people, and that's the difference, is these people care about you. They care about what's going on. Chances are they're sharing in the same things that are going on in your life. So it's just, yes, so important to keep those connection pieces. But, um, I wanted to ask you, obviously, this is a big part of it, AI, constant notifications, Teams messages, emails, mobile phones, like technology is amazing, but it's also super annoying that we're expected to be on all the time.[00:40:00]
Do, do you think that technology has made burnout
worse?
Stephen W.: I don't think it's the technology in itself. I think if we think, think about technology, it's, it's probably advanced and, and sped up a, and made a lot of our processes easier. I think it's the lack of boundaries when it comes to technology. You know, there's not a clear moment when work ends. The phone being in your pocket means that people can contact you at any time of day, of holidays.
And so I think, and, and then the constant interruptions, you know, which cause you not to be able to get into deep work, you know. So then you, you don't get the stuff done that you f- you thought you'd get done. Every notification you get, if you've got social media, you know, your nervous system is always thinking about it and addressing it, you know.
So although you're like, "Ah, I'll turn the phone over," you've read the message or you've seen the top line of the message, you know. So again, there's maybe ~a str- ~a small stress [00:41:00] response there. And then again, how can I get my focus back? Are you getting your focus back? Are you con- still kinda maybe 50% on that notification, 50% on the work you need to do?
And then we think about like AI, and I think, I think it's genuinely useful
You know, it, I mean, it's sped up a lot of the, the processes that, that what we are doing. And even to the point now that, that I'm, I'm trying to think of a way to enhance what my EA does. We're actually
thinking
Stephen W.: of getting her an AI agent set up, not to get rid of her.
And I think that's a common thing that people think. That's not the purpose . The purpose is actually from my perception is how do I take or make this easier for me to give her this work to do? You know, because, uh, then all of a sudden I can say, "Hey, can you just put this into the agent? And it's been trained up on my brain, so now you don't have to [00:42:00] ask me that question again.
Which means you can get better work done, and you're less stressed because hopefully now you're going home at the end of the night." ' Cause this agent will... You set it up on a Mac Mini or whatever it is, and then Carla can take it, and then she can say,
"Hey, working this over the next 24 hours. I'm away home.
See ya." You know? Then the next day, and it's went through a list of tasks or assessed stuff ~it, it, it... ~So I think the perception is it's not gonna take jobs away. I think what it can do with the right training and the right mindset and the right out- outlook on it, is that it could
potentially ,
Stephen W.: and, uh, my hope is hopefully reduce the amount of work that EAs have to do or, or repetitive work that
EA, uh, admins and EAs have to do on a daily basis.
Candice: I agree with that. One game-changing thing that I have done is turned off my WhatsApp [00:43:00] notifications. I didn't realize how much I am distracted by WhatsApp. I'm in so many groups between family, friends, AEOP, conferences, you name it. It just is a constant ding, ding, ding, ding, like always popping up. And so I turned it off when I was up in Queensland, and I just never turned it
back on.
It's glorious. It's glorious
Stephen W.: Well, I think of. .. I mute specific
chats. So I have some... Because you can do that as well. I, I have notifications on for WhatsApp. WhatsApp is the only thing I have notifications on for. No emails, no social media, you know, nothing. So I don't get anything from that and in WhatsApp I have, you know, my partner can message me on it, family can message me on it.
But if I'm in groups, muted, constantly muted. You know, if I've got networking groups or [00:44:00] I've got business groups or, all of those are muted until I decide to go onto WhatsApp and have a look at it, and then I can go and catch up. So I think that's a, a strategy that you can do.
And, and when you're doing deep work-
Candice: Yes. Not have,
like, the pop-ups and not have, those kind of distractions. I think that You have to turn them off, and I know you can't do that with, like, your executive and stuff, but you can have settings so that particular people still come through when you turn off.
Even when you put on, um, flying mode. you can still... Or do not disturb. You can still have, important people or important, like if, you know, your mum can still call you and things like that. But I think it's just been a game changer to have constant notifications turned off, because that's what WhatsApp was to me.
So if you've got, like, Slack or something like that, that you're, you can... Of, at 5:00 PM it turns off the notifications, do it. Why do you need that constantly interrupting your evening of people that are still online?
Just turn it off. it's [00:45:00] so great
Stephen W.: Yeah. And look, I
I think everyone, everyone's a little bit different. You know, for some people it puts them at ease being able just to check it. But I think turn off. notifications for sure, you know, especially after 5:00 PM. And if you're choosing just to have a quick glance at It just to make sure everything's okay, that's fine, as long as it's not affecting...
You're, you're finding it's affecting your sleep. And this is, particularly for the people who are, are, are complaining, "I feel burned out, I feel fatigued, I feel like I can't concentrate. I'm not really getting that output." You know, if you're feeling like that ,, then you've got a responsibility to take action.
You know, if you're feeling amazing, you feel like, "Ricky, I've got loads of energy. I'm ticking boxes. I, I feel like I've got good work-life balance," ~ keep,~ keep doing what you're doing.
Maybe there's a few strategies that we can look at to, to optimize things, you know. But if, again, if you feel like you're struggling, then we've got to take some sort of action.
and I think it's small steps at first. [00:46:00] As you said, 5:00 PM finishes work, the notifications
au-automatically turn off. But if you're choosing, if you're like, you know, sometimes when you can't sleep because you've not been able to check your, your Slack or your messages, ~ have a,~ have a time where you just go, "Ricky, I'm gonna check it once and I'm gonna check it maybe twice." And you realize that, "Ricky, nothing's actually happening at the moment," or "There's nothing urgent." " Ricky, the next night can we try and do maybe one? Or the next week we'll try and just check it once." And
just kinda almost wean yourself off of it.
Candice: It is, it is weaning yourself out of a
process of, of addiction really. Like you're addicted to checking. You... I was definitely... I would never eat a meal without my phone on the, on the table. It was that bad. If my-- if I felt like my boss needed me, I would let them interrupt a meal with my parents.
Like, it, it was that, uh, mind you, the people I work with absolutely would've expected that I answered the phone. But it, it is, it is [00:47:00] weaning yourself off to say, "I don't have to have my phone with me twenty-four/seven. I am allowed to check out." And it-it's us because it's legal that after, you know, there's new laws put in of ~right to contact after, a right to...~
~I'll have to look up what it is, but~ right to disconnect, I think it is. Yeah. you know, you're allowed to. So it's you. You're, you're, you're... Well, I'm talking on my own experience. It's me. I'm the, I'm my own worst enemy. I'm the one that has to implement these changes. Nobody else asked me to check after hours.
It's me.
~Yeah. All right. ~
~Well, ~
Stephen W.: ~And, and~
~also, ~
Candice: ~keep going~ All right, without
giving anything away, what are you gonna cover in Adelaide, Sydney,
Stephen W.: that's really good That's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say. ~you know,~ we're not always perfect with this. So even though you think you know It you know what you should do, we always need a reminder to come back to it. And I say That, about myself and everyone else. You do slip into these situations or t- time where you are constantly checking emails.
You know, that's, exactly what coming to an event like what we are running is all about, [00:48:00] is to bring yourself back. It's to say, "Ricky, I, I know this stuff, but I've got to remember it." and so yeah, I think that's, one thing that I want everyone to take from this is you might feel like you know it all, or you might feel like you know what you should be doing, are you actually doing It Let's bring you back so that you are
Candice: It is. ~That, that's, ~you know, that's, as I say, why we're having your session as the first session, because it is so important that we start implementing these tools again. Because as you just said, we think we know, we think we have it sorted, we think we will do it, but we don't. I don't. I am just as guilty as all of you.
~I am-- A- ~as I'm recording this, I am thinking in my head: "Listen to you giving advice when you don't even do that. Now let's see you go for a walk today." I, I am one of you guys. ~I am, ~I am you. So I'm gonna commit to doing this as well. I'm gonna commit to making some changes with you. ~Uh,~ and especially I'm gonna, I'm gonna have an accountability part of this, as with the [00:49:00] conferences after, of what we're gonna do to make sure that people are doing this.
So speaking of, without giving everything away, what are you gonna cover in the Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane conferences? Can you share, like, one practical technique that you're gonna be talking about at the conferences that we can share with the listeners today, maybe to use when they notice themselves
feeling overwhelmed?
Stephen W.: Okay. Well, I don't want to give too much away, but it's going to be practical and it's going to be immediate. So we're gonna have a, a self-assessment. You're gonna be able to, to tell there and then, I'm gonna have a-- On our, our app, there's gonna be a diagnostic tool where you will be able to identify, you know, in real time
Candice: Mirror. Mirror in the face
Stephen W.: how susceptible you are
to
burnout
and
fatigue.
Candice: I think we need
Stephen W.: And so from there, y- gonna be
eye-opening. The majority of people will be amazed at how close they are towards burnout.
Candice: Ah
Stephen W.: ~You know,~ from there, [00:50:00] we're gonna
start building on that. You know, there's no judgment in it. I'm not here to, to tell people they're doing life wrong. And most people on-- in, in that particular room are, are gonna be doing a lot for everyone else around them.
And so it's being honest about the li- the limits. You know, it's being honest about where we're at currently and then building off of that.
And so the goal is: How do we leave with more relief than guilt?
Candice: Yep
Stephen W.: You know, how can you start working yourself without feeling guilty? And we're gonna go through some actionable techniques and tips that will be tailored to you and where you're at currently
with burnout and fatigue
Candice: Yeah. ~Uh,~ one of
the things I love about your approach, Steven, is that it's practical. You know, this isn't about meditation on a mountain somewhere. You know, these-- we're gonna be talking about what are some small daily habits that genuinely make a difference.
Now, I've sat [00:51:00] through one of your sessions, so I have a little insight into some of the things that...
But I know that they are actually things that people can take away and implement that day, that tomorrow. Like, this isn't about woo woo, wah, wah. This is about practical skills to change your headspace, and your wellness.
Yeah. Look, I imagine there are a lot of people listening who are thinking, "I'm already burnt out," and,~ uh, what, what, what would s-~ first thing you'd say to them?
" I, I'm done. I'm burnt out.
I've got no hope."
Stephen W.: I'd say y-you are your most valuable asset. You know, you're the only one who can manage you, And you don't have any replacement, ~you know.~ So looking after yourself isn't selfish, it's not indulgent. It's the thing that keeps everyone else in your organization working the way they do. ~You know, and, ~and I always say you can't pour from an empty cup.
And so a lot of the admins that are listening to this have been pouring for a very long time. And so during this session, [00:52:00] we're gonna help you, again, come up with strategies. We're gonna start small.
We'll start today at the event, and you're gonna n-have a noticeable reduction in burnout and fatigue and stress and anxiety 'cause they're all tied into the same bucket.
And it's easier than what you think.
Candice: Yeah. And look, we've got CEOs who listen to this, which I was really surprised about. I had a CEO talk to me at a networking event and said, "I listen to your podcast." And I was like, "Do you?" And she was like, "Yeah, because it helps me understand your profession better, and it helps me work with my EA better."
And I was like, "That's amazing." So to the leaders that are listening too, you know, what responsibility do these executives and organizations have when it comes to preventing burnout with their teams? And how can they maybe get a company like yours to come in and, and,
solve some of these issues?
Stephen W.: That actually doesn't surprise me that CEOs and directors listen to this ~because, you know, and,~ and the ones who listen to this are obviously trying to be somewhat [00:53:00] proactive. You know, they're trying to seek to understand. They're trying to understand the, the... 'Cause every job has these nuanced problems and challenges.
And if you're a CEO or director listening to this, it's because you're genuinely interested and value your current EA, and you're trying to get more perspective on their situation. And so I'd say that, that for one doesn't surprise me. But I think the, the people who are listening to this are obviously that sort of thinker.
They want more for their team, want more for their employees and especially their, their admins. So I'd say let's keep going. ~You know, there's a, ~there's a huge job to do here. Um, I think a lot of people are struggling with it. And so, your admin might not have the skills and the bravery, I would say, to address these situations.
And so can you be proactive and, and address it with them? Can you come up with strategies to help them? And, and can you put in their [00:54:00] calendar, ~you know,~ simple things like lunch is at this time, and demand that they take lunch. ~You know,~ demand that they turn off notifications after 5:00 PM. ~You know, ~can you help them with some of these strategies that they might find hard to implement ~and,~ and open up the conversation?
And yeah, if you, if you do want to, to get help with this or, or, uh, enhance the wellbeing of the, of the team and the companies, ~um,~ yeah, jump on our website, employewelnessaustralia.co.au,
~um,~ or socials or email,
Candice: will all be in the show notes
Stephen W.: but i- if they are a, a CEO or director, they, they'd be... And they're listening to this, they're, they're, they sound like they'd be a
proactive, CEO or director
Candice: agree. And I, I believe in monkey see, monkey do. Like if you're taking your breaks, they'll feel like they can take their breaks. If you don't reply to emails, and you can even just put on schedule send, you can still do your emails, but don't send it until 8:00 AM the next morning, then they'll [00:55:00] feel like they don't have emails that they have to check during the night.
So there's definitely things that can be done on both sides. But if someone comes to your k- keynote, Stephen, expecting just another wellbeing talk, what are they gonna experience that
different-- that's different?
Stephen W.: Well, as I said before, it's not just a talk about being more grateful or drinking more water. I'm gonna explain what burnout is, you know, what fatigue is, what stress is, and help you understand more about what's happening. There's gonna be a, a self-assessment, and so you'll get, you'll get a real time assessment or diagnostic on where you are currently.
You know, and if that comes back saying that you're high risk, it, it's quite eye-opening. And I've got plenty of stories that I tell about f- colleagues that I worked with, you know, who have unfortunately, you know, been on the wrong end of stress and burnout and fatigue and, you know, heart [00:56:00] attacks, strokes.
They, they are common, and they're a lot closer than what people think. And so this isn't to scare, just scare you, which it, it should. But the majority of humans don't act until we get a scare. And so this is to help you guys understand that the, this sort of thing can happen and will happen if you don't put these things into practice.
And so, as I said, it'll be practical, it'll be immediate, and you'll use the things that you hear in the room. You'll not just hear about them and then, then not
take action on it
Candice: And I can tell you from sitting in on one of Stephen's sessions before, you even get a playlist. More to be said on that. All right. So finally, if admins are attending and walked away remembering just one thing from your
keynote, what would you want that to be?
Stephen W.: I think I just mentioned it, but
you are your most valuable asset. There is no replacement for you.
And I'd encourage you to [00:57:00] think about that. You know, if you had a, a stroke or a heart attack today,
what is the knock-on effect?
Candice: Not just in your work.
Stephen W.: So think about that. if you don't like what could potentially happen in the back end of that,
come along
and we'll help you
address it
Candice: Yeah. It's gonna be such a good session. I'm so pumped for it because I think everyone needs a little knee-jerk in this area and needs to be reminded. As I said earlier in this, this episode, I know of three admins this year that have been diagnosed with an autoimmune disease from stress. It was avoidable, and now they're gonna have a lifetime of having to do...
One is Hashimoto's, which is one that isn't even registered ~as, as a, uh,~ as something that they can get medication for. Like ~this is, the--~ these things are avoidable, but we have to do the work to make sure that we don't end up in these situations. So Stephen, I cannot wait for you to share your knowledge with this group.
I think they are so vulnerable to this, so I think it's the first perfect session [00:58:00] to start off the conferences with ~. Um,~ and like so many admin professionals, you know, they spend their careers looking after everyone else's performance and wellbeing, but rarely stop to protect their own.
So if today's conversation has resonated with you, make sure you join us at the Admin Avenues conferences.
We're in Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane, where Stephen will be speaking at all three. ~Uh,~ and he's gonna drive in how we can recognize burnout early, regulate our nervous systems, and future-proof our most valuable asset, us. ~Um,~ so Stephen, thank you so much for joining us on the Admin Avenues podcast.
We can't wait to see you on the stage, but as I said, we'll be putting all of Stephen's information into the show notes.
I really do, ~um, ~think this is such an important topic, not just for admins, but this is a conversation for all companies. So if you have been thinking about, "Actually, we probably need a, a little bit of a kick in the ass on this one," reach out to Stephen. Wellness Australia, Employee Wellness Australia is such a great company to work with.
They have the tools, they have people all around the country, so it doesn't matter where you are, they can come to [00:59:00] you or they can facilitate. We've done a session with them ourselves, and it was brilliant. So please, if you are in the market for those services, please reach out to Stephen. All right.
I have taken up more than enough of your time. Uh, thank you so much for joining us, and I cannot wait to see you first up in Adelaide. Kick off things in Adelaide. I'm excited. Awesome. All right. Thanks, Stephen, and see you all in the next episode [01:00:00]