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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of parenting in youth sports in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
We are all writing our own Rocky film, starring our kids.
We script the pathway, the next season, the next team,
the next showcase, even the next meal.
And then something happens that we never dare to put on page.
Matt, this interview is about the unforeseen.
Chris Mueller took us beyond any script
He was a B-team kid until 14 and
barely played his first two years at Wisconsin.
He changed himself instead of changing clubs or changing
schools, and he left as an All-American, an
MLS player, and a U.S. international.
Then, in the middle of the interview, he told us what was really happening.
After two years of fighting a heart condition, after getting fit,
coming back again and again, he was forced to retire.
And that is where we went completely off script.
Liron, all your hard work
was scrapped.
This became the story of what happens when the path changes without
asking you what the player owns, what the parents
cannot fix, and whether the goal is only where
a child ends up or who they become while we're chasing it.
And for the parents, that may be the part we miss.
We spend so much time helping our kids find the right path.
It's easy to forget the moment the path takes a sharp
turn, or worse reaches a dead end.
This is Chris Mueller, and this is Chasing the Game,
Youth Soccer in America
Liron: Chris, welcome to Chasing the Game.
Matt: you've made 150 appearances
in MLS by the age of 30.
You've been capped by the U.S. Men's
National Team, briefly played overseas.
You have accomplished a lot, a lot
what many can even dream about.
Can you please just spend a
minute taking us through your
journey and how did you get here?
Chris: Yeah, so I grew up playing in a
Chicago suburb for the Sockers FC Academy.
Uh, I went over there when I was nine,
uh, played, I was on the B team until
I was 14, really ambitious, really
hungry, l- really curious, ended up
getting myself onto the first team.
Um, went on a trial overseas when I was
in high school 'cause I thought that that
was my, my mode, that was my mission,
that's how I was gonna get to the pros
'cause that was my ultimate goal as a kid.
But that obviously didn't work
out, and I ended up coming back.
I went to the University of Wisconsin,
which was still, uh, a great situation for
me, but I was on, a minimal scholarship.
I was, um, excited about going there, but
the first two years while I was there,
I wasn't playing pretty much at all.
Uh, I didn't start or score a single
goal my freshman year, didn't play
much, scored a few goals my sophomore
year, but was still kinda not there
fully, like in comparison to some
of the other players in my class.
And then, really locked in that summer
and, and changed some things about
my processes and how I was treating
my game, how I was treating myself,
how I was recovering, et cetera,
all these different sorts of things.
And, ultimately had a turnaround two
years where, uh, which were historic
in the NCAA as it goes, and, got…
Had the opportunity to get drafted
by Orlando City, um, in 2017 or 2018.
That was after the 2017
Big Ten Championship.
And then from there, uh, played four
seasons, grew, learned a ton, obviously,
in your first four years as a pro.
Um, h- had the opportunity to get capped
by the U.S. Men's National Team two times
while I was there, and then I made a
move overseas to Hibernian in Scotland.
I had the opportunity to get transferred
over there, and then mo- most recently,
obviously now, uh, having just
finished up with the Chicago Fire.
Liron: there's a twist in the plot, right?
Now, it's not just about you
as a player, You have parents
coming to you now for advice.
I know you're helping with showcases,
recruiting, trainers, colleges.
What, what do you feel is the
underlying need that you're fulfilling?
Chris: Because I think a lot of
families think that the answer
is something external, and it's
not just building the player.
So like I think that the world tells
kids all the time that they need to
believe in themselves, but they, it
forgets to teach kids how to build
a self that's worth believing in.
And the only reason why I say that is
because I was on the back end of the
same sort of thing when I started to
focus on my processes, when I started
to really build confidence in myself
and stack evidence that I was who I
said I was, that I can keep the promises
that I make to myself subconsciously.
That was when I saw a massive
increase in my, my game, you know?
It wasn't a six-week period over my
summer transition from sophomore year to
junior year in college that my physique
changed, that my technique changed.
Everything was just a compilation of me
stacking evidence and putting in these
extreme actions that was ultimately gave
me that level of confidence to go out on
the field and know I was more prepared
than everybody, know that I was ready
to maximize my moment, and I saw an, a
massive spike in my performance, you know?
And so I, I, what I see with a lot of
families and players is they think they
need to go to this showcase, and they
need to go to play for this MLS academy,
and they need to go to this technical
trainer, and it's like all the while you
just need to focus on building the player.
Like, you are not that far behind.
You're a youth soccer player, you know?
Like, you have time to
get this right, you know?
You don't have to be 12
years old as A team starter.
You don't gotta be 14 years old
getting looks at colleges already.
Like, you guys need to slow down.
You need to stop comparing yourself
to everybody else and really get
your journey and your process right,
And, and, and that's the unfortunate
bit, you know, is that you see a lot
of parents who really wanna support
their players, who know that they're
talented, who see their love for the
game, and they're paying their club fees.
They're carrying their lawn chairs
out to games, just like my parents
used to, and they don't wanna
miss anything important, you know?
So I felt very, um, passionate
about the fact that I'm, I'm
a big self-development guy.
I'm a big personal development guy.
I'm a big reader, um, and just passing
this along to not only young soccer
players, but young adults in general is
more, um, so my niche b- but obviously
with the soccer piece involved just
because of my resume and, and where
I've been, I think I can, I can
kinda tie the two worlds together.
Matt: is it different today than
it was when you were growing up
and when you were 12, 13, and 14?
Is it more intense?
and, how do you work with families to help
ground them in it where they don't get so
caught up?
Chris: Yeah, I think the platforms
are definitely different, right?
When I was growing up, it was
the USDA, which was, like, the
development academy across.
Now you have different platforms
from ECNL, to MLS NEXT, to GA
for girls, to whatever, right?
There's a, a multitude
of them, NPL, N1, right?
They just expanded these
leagues from US Soccer.
So there's plenty of options out there.
I think there's a lot of noise.
I think the exposure is better
than it's ever been because you
have access to good quality video.
So, a lot of college coaches are
watching highlights vid- videos, right?
I think the, the landscape is
definitely a little bit different,
but I think more so how it's, it's
harder is that there's a lot of noise.
But e- especially with the activity
of the transfer portal, with the fifth
year being implemented into college,
with the international roster spots
who are, um, increasing by the day,
you know, it's like the college game is
becoming also very competitive, you know?
So if you wanna get yourself onto a
college roster, which is what I think a
lot of young players should be striving
to do because of all of the intangible
things that they learn in school,
it, it is a difficult thing, right?
Can you keep them in love with it?
If you push them too hard and you burn
them out, they're not gonna love it
enough to go and put in the work on
their own that is ultimately what's gonna
dictate whether or not they get far.
So, like, by definition, if you wanna get
into the 1%, you have to be doing what
99% of people aren't doing, you know?
Liron: But, but to be fair, okay, you
mentioned in a, in a previous interview
I saw that, uh, and it's kind of a
paraphrasing that, that your parents
had to drag you off the field when,
when you were a kid and you were playing
at, uh, pickup games at hockey rinks
or whatever until the lights were off.
That's not… If the kid has that, right?
This is not about the parents.
Or is it?
Or did your parents have an active part
in having you love the game so much?
Chris: Like my parents didn't necessarily
do anything, but they didn't put
pressure on me from a young age, and
they let me try different sports.
I, I didn't become a single
sport athlete until I was 10.
I was wrestling all the
way up until I was in
high school even
Matt: By the way, you s- you
say, you say 10 like it's 18.
But, and the, but the fact, but the fact
that, but that's like a big claim now.
I was a multi-athlete until, well,
a multi-athlete s- a sport athlete
until I was 10 is that's how,
that's how far we've digressed into
Chris: I, I do think actually that
the kid does need to have that
level of passion for it, you know?
I would just say then don't claim
your goal to play in college.
You know, I think that there's a big
issue with kids who claim that they want a
certain goal, and then they don't take the
action to back that up, because then it,
it's a misalignment in your, your internal
value and, like, what you're saying you
want and what you're actually doing,
and that's gonna affect your confidence.
It's like if I said that I wanted
to be healthy, and then I went home
and I smoked a pack of cigarettes
a day, you wouldn't really lo- you
would lose faith in me, you know?
So if you just want them in there to
be with their friends, to keep them out
of trouble, to give them some structure
and discipline, fair play, you know?
But if you do wanna get into college,
and you wanna be in that top 1%, to
not have that level of passion and
to not be willing to go and play and
suffer for it, you're, you're looking
at a, a probability that is already
slim going to none i- in my opinion
Matt: you tell parents of less
motivated kids that honestly you
cannot help them and that the child
may need to find a different passion.
I'm curious, like at what
point, how quickly can you
identify something like that?
Is it through a conversation?
Is it that easy or is it watching
the work rate, being around
a kid for a week or a month?
And I, I guess the second part of
that is you were a late bloomer.
There's tons of professional
athletes who are late bloomers.
Can you confuse a lack of motivation
or a lack of confidence with physical
attributes that haven't flourished yet
the way they have with other players?
Chris: I don't… I think that for me,
myself, my… I was a late bloomer, but
you could never question my love for
the game and my desire to get there.
That was unquestionable.
I was the last person to leave the field.
I was getting peeled off
the field legitimately.
My mom would say, "Chris, we gotta go,"
or, "Chris, you can't be out that late,"
and I was just playing constantly.
So maybe I wasn't the best at that point,
and I did- was a late bloomer, and maybe
I didn't have the physique yet, 'cause
I was 4'11" until I was in high school.
But I don't think… I think if you watch
the kid for a week… Okay, so, this was
an interesting thing that happened with
my little brother, and I'll tell you.
He was someone who'd said he
wanted to be a pro like me, right?
He had said that for a long time.
He wanted to be in college, and I,
I don't know if that, he was just
claiming that, wanting that identity
and maybe the status that came along
with that, without actually wanting the
cost for what comes in on the back end.
But so then you'd think that someone
who has an older brother who is
there, who can tell you exactly what
you need to be doing to best improve
your odds, and you don't go and do it
That, that to me, I, I'll watch you for
a week and I'll say, "You should probably
find something else to do." But a lot
of kids who lack motivation, maybe from
a young age, or they lack confidence
maybe from a young age, they don't have
the right structure or the plan or the
guidance to even see is this the problem.
This- that's just what I'm saying, like
I'll… You could lay out the steps.
This is what you need to do.
You know, this is ultimately gonna
help you get to where you wanna go.
Then if you do it or not,
that's gonna test the claim.
You know?
So like if you're s- a, a young player
who says like, "Oh, I w- I wanna be a
pro," or, "I wanna play in college,"
like let's test that by giving you
the steps, and if you don't do it,
then ultimately that's, that it should
be insight for the parent, I think
Liron: Well, there's a story that
you told, that you were at Wisconsin,
uh, this was the second year.
You tell a story how you called your
parents and said you're ready to
leave, uh, things weren't working out.
I know for me as a
parent, this is a trigger.
If my son called me, "I'm ready to
leave," and this I say to a fault of
mine, I would be immediately calling
everyone I know, "How do we move here?
What do we do?" And you, your parents did
the opposite of everything I would do.
And they're like, "Look, hunker
down, push through." And obviously
they've helped you get through a
very difficult time in your life.
Can you talk a little bit about that
pathway and that kinda T-junction
for you and for your parents?
Chris: My parents were always
extremely supportive, and I think
it was always backed, one, on my
action, and I could tell you that
story from when I was in high school.
But back into that college story, I think
they were also a little bit smarter in
the sense of looking in the long term.
I was at the University of Wisconsin,
which was a, I- it's a renowned public
university across the country, probably
a top 10 public university, and I wanted
to transfer out to UIC to go and try and
get more playing time in a worse league,
So I think that my mom was
like, "Look," same with my dad,
"You've, you've had your fun.
You- you've been a kid, but,
like, if you wanna make this
happen, this is ultimately on you.
It's not you going somewhere
else and being the same person.
Like, you have to change." You
know, and then I got handed a book
coincidentally at the same time from
a trainer who said kind of the same
thing to me, and I took it upon myself.
You know?
So, like, I'm very grateful that
I stayed, and I just kinda pushed
through that adversity on my own.
It was the most important life
lesson that I've ever taken in my
life from the game of soccer, was
that you get out what you put in,
Literally, I went from a bench player
never playing to the only two-time
All-American ever at Wisconsin.
Liron: But your parents' guidance wasn't
about, "Hey, you got a chance to go pro
or whatever, you're blowing it," right?
It was really life guidance, or
was it specifically about the,
Chris: I think it was both.
I think it was both.
It's like, "Chris, this is getting hard
for you and it's not time to just uproot."
Like sometimes you gotta sit in it and you
gotta na- navigate it, and I think that
they knew that that would help me become
stronger, and so that's what I did, right?
Like I stayed there.
I like just essentially
bunkered myself in.
I would lock myself in my room when
my, my teammates were going out.
I would-- I could hear them in my--
I, I literally remember the scenes
in my apartment where I'm locked in
my room and then in the foyer they're
pre-gaming, getting ready to go out,
and they're like, "Come on, Chris.
No, dude, are you coming out?" And I was
like, "No, man, I'm not going out anymore.
I'm watching the film
or something." Right?
And th- those are tough decisions to
make as well, like when you're in the
moment because this opportunity cost
you could miss out on those times with
no reward if you don't make it or if
you don't win the Big Ten championship.
But like ultimately we'd set those
goals and it's like we wanna be Big
Ten champions and then, the team's
out on Thursday and we play Saturday.
It's like that's not gonna work, right?
So again, I think it's just this idea of
a- and I can go back in my life and just
try and consistently align those sort
of things with what you say you want,
knowing what to do it, and then if you
don't do it, then I think it's a good
indication after maybe a week or a month
how many times you can tell somebody
to try and motivate them that, that you
should find something else that you're
more passionate about some- so to say.
I'm just saying you do have to
love it enough to put through,
go through the suffering.
Liron: No, it's, I mean,
it's… No, it's amazing.
It's just like doing
this podcast every week
Matt: Uh, i- What, what, um, for the
families and for the players that you
work with, maybe not the nine-year-olds,
but let's say the 14, 15-year-olds
where maturity hopefully is starting
to kick in, the, the window, I don't
wanna say the, the window's not
closing by any means, but the beyond.
W- what tangible things do you try
to share with them to help them make
small adjustments that ultimately
lead to big adjustments in, in their
game, but also just their mentality?
Chris: Um, I would say like a, a, a
general one could be like getting a
right, the right morning routine in.
for a ch- for a player, they might
not think that reading, you know, five
pages of a book, or journaling in the
morning, or meditating and visualizing
the success of their day, or stretching
for 10 minutes after training, or
doing something before bed for their,
their sleep, that these things are like
directly, directly impacting the game,
but it's slowly stacking up evidence
in their mind that they're taking
extreme action, that they're doing
things that no other kids are doing.
That's how you're gonna show up on
game day confident to take the penalty
in the last minute, to go and get
the ball down low when the pressure's
on and you need to help your team
break the pressure and get forward.
Like th- that's what's gonna
help you stand out on the field,
is if you know that you're more
prepared than everybody else.
Liron: I mean, um, since I don't really
care as much about the kids and I really
wanna focus about us, You have the
parents coming to you, and let's say a
parent has all the check marks, okay?
So the kid loves the sport.
Uh, the parents are, are all in.
Give us kind of a blanket statement.
We're very good with generalization
here and not details.
What you've learned with this 12-year-old
that parents are doing too much, what
should they stop, what should they
keep, and things that you're seeing
parents pay for and you're going,
"My God," like rolling your eyes
Chris: I think that they're, they're
going to a multitude of showcases, you
know, like, that aren't always the, the
player pays versus, like, the club putting
it on or getting invited to an ID camp.
I think that that's one thing
as you get a little bit older.
I think as a young player, you know, I
think it's good to do technical training.
I do, but I'll just say, like,
I never had a technical trainer.
You know, like, I never had… I- The most
important thing to me was just playing.
You know, like, just let the kid play
more, go in the backyard with his friends.
Like, I think that there's sometimes I
see, like, a lot of kids who, you know,
they're really techy with the ball and
they can dribble out of co- in and out
of cones really fast and their head,
their, their, their head is just down.
You know, and it's like the game, when
the game comes, you have to combine
with teammates, and you need to trade
time and space, and you need to find
solutions and ways to get out of
tight spaces with your head up, right?
Like, making passes, like, the
best way to do that is just
to play as much as you can.
You know, like, I was blessed 'cause
I grew up, uh, we had a group on
Facebook, it was called Football
in the Burg, which was, you know,
Schaumburg is where I grew up.
So Football in the Burg was our
friends on Facebook, and we'd post
in there and it's like, "Yo, street
tonight is going on at 6:00 PM.
Who's down?
After training I'd go there and we'd
play street soccer in a hockey rink,
with hockey goals, and we would
play there for hours, you know.
And I think that that sort of stuff
of just playing the game and having
to constantly be creative and play on
different surfaces and, like I'm saying,
find solutions on the field that are more
realistic and more practical than just,
taking touches in a box with no pressure.
I don't think it's, you have to get
so gung ho on the fact that, um,
you know, your kid at 12 years old
needs to be doing, three technical
training sessions a week, and the
older players are going to all these
showcases where who knows if it's,
even gonna have any real exposure to it
Liron: Yeah, I know we're gonna have some
listeners who are not gonna like this
Matt: we we had the founder
of, uh, Silva Academy on, and
he referred to it as Cone FC.
Chris: There you go.
Yeah, man, like I…
You know, like, that balance is not right.
That is not right.
You need to be playing way more, and then
you go out to these training sessions
sometimes for youth players, and the
coach is talking for 30 minutes, and the
ball's rolling for 30 minutes, right?
It's like, what are we
trying to teach them?
The kids gotta play.
Put them in smalls side and
let's see them, let's see them
ball out and figure this out.
You know what I mean?
you're 10 years old, 11 years old, I
would like to see more f- more liberty
on the field with these players and more,
courage to take risks and to run at people
1v1 and to to express themselves, right?
Liron: so many things
you're saying, right, Matt?
These are so many themes that, that
we've heard through the 40-odd episodes,
Matt: hundred percent.
And I think, look, the, the proof is
obvious when you look at the number
of truly creative players that we've
produced at the world-class level in
this country, and it's not because there
aren't millions of kids who are playing.
It's not because there aren't the
resources for kids to develop.
I mean, Cavan Sullivan, is, is
an incredible, incredible young
player and is starting to really
come into his own as a pro.
I think what makes him so special and
magical is his ability to just, to
be creative, to go play, to have fun.
His work rate is unbelievable.
But we just don't see that in
American players, and I think it goes
back to the rigidity, a lot of it.
I mean, he's obviously really talented
too, but we need more players who play
the way he plays, and you're never
gonna get that in an overly structured
environment
Chris: Absolutely.
I co- I literally could
not agree with that more.
I think that, that, that sort of
creativity and Ca- He's a great example
'cause he is just starting to gain
confidence and really starting to,
grow into his role over in Philly.
I've played against him a few
times and the first few times, I
mean, he, the guy was 15 years old.
You're like, "Wow, this is…" Also
though, at the same time, like by the
same token, it does take some risk from
the club, like to be willing to do that.
Like that's part of the problem I think
as well is like we do have young players
who are talented who, you just don't
always get the opportunities at a certain,
to a certain level like in the MLS.
And I think that, there's a multitude of
reasons for that as well, but one of them
is, especially in the attacking third, is,
all the DPs, if you look across rosters,
are being spent on the big money attacking
players who are coming from South America,
who are coming from Europe, and it's like
the, the attacking player who's coming
out of college who maybe has a lot of
potential, to, to take a risk on a player
like that who's coming out of college and
making 130 grand versus a guy who's making
$4 million coming from Lille, it's a,
it, it's tough tactically and, and even,
politically to try and play him, right?
Unless there's like big injury
or something's going on where you
can actually get an opportunity.
Like I was really blessed in that
sense too when I went to Orlando, the
kid that they brought to play, uh, in
the position that I ended up playing
was, uh, uh, supposed to be a DP.
The nu- He took the number 10 kit from
Kaká, and in preseason he, he got, he
got his first big contract obviously,
and he took a knock in preseason.
He got a charley horse and the guy was out
for five weeks, and he was just chilling.
He didn't really… and I was like getting
opportunity to actually play and I, I was
taking advantage of those opportunities
and thank God for it because, I, that
was, that was essentially what helped
me make my, my career was that start,
and, but, but again, if I'd, if he
hadn't gotten injured, maybe it would've
been harder for me, like I do think you
need good luck in a lot of sense, but
you know, I, I think that part of that
too, like just the league in and of
itself doesn't take a lot of risk on,
young attacking players specifically.
I think you're starting to see it
a little bit more, but, um, that,
that's something that i- it's
still, it's a, it's a tough thing.
They, they definitely have to continue
to protect these domestic spots for the
Americans so we can see more guys coming
through, getting opportunities in games
and, really showcasing what they can do.
Matt: What else can be done to create more
clarity around the pathways and to help
families and kids actually navigate them?
Chris: That, that's such a big answer
that it's hard for me to pick one thing.
I think it's what's…
Liron: That's called a Matt question.
Uh, I forgot to tell you, in every
interview there is a Matt question.
Chris: It.
I, to be fair, I think it's the
kind of clarity and, ultimately
what people are looking for.
one of the big things that I was
adamant about, telling people, one, the
importance of going to school, 'cause
I think a lot of families are trying to
jump to MLS academies on this big shot
dream of going straight to the pros,
But at the same time, I… When I first
signed in Chicago, when I came back from
Scotland, I think there was 10 or 12
homegrown players who were on the roster,
and only two of them made it, right?
And the, the other 10 threw away full ride
collar- college scholarships and were out
of the league in a year or two, right?
So it's like, I think that the college
aspect and the college route is a very
viable one, and it's a more realistic one
in the long term for players, especially
in terms of the things you learn off
the field, in terms of the things that
you learn about yourself, taking on more
responsibility, uh, ex- and a backup, ex-
to be hon- to complete- to be completely
honest, 'cause, you know, kids don't
understand you're gonna at one point have
a family and kids, and when your career
is over at, 30, 35, and you need to then
transition, like, it'd probably be good
for you to have a good degree from a good
school if you're that talented, right?
It's a challenge because, you know, a
lot of families don't necessarily know
what they have to be doing, right?
And one of the things that I've been very,
um, persistent about has been letting
them hear it straight from the sources,
which is like the college coaches, right?
So in, in some of my platform, I
have interviews with some of the best
college coaches around the country
because I feel like the only people
who matter in terms of their opinions
of where they're recruiting from,
what matters when they're, you know,
responding to people or, you know,
watching highlight tapes that actually
get seen and they, they're showing the
right things are the college coaches.
And, you know, ultimately what it
comes down to, uh, you know, I think is
character and, and trust and consistency
and, and, and, a bunch of other things
that are not necessarily just talent,
because talent is very overrated in
this game, I think, um, in some sense.
Liron: No, it's actually, it's
excellent, and it, it ties to
something that you talk about a lot.
Uh, I've heard you mention the
word ownership, and this idea
of the player having ownership
of communication with coaches.
You gave examples, understanding
the game, building film, taking
responsibility for their next step,
Again, as a parent, it's almost a
foreign idea to me because I feel like
my kid don't need to own anything.
He's got me.
I, I, I'll get it all done for him.
But obviously that, that is
not the right way to do it.
Can you talk about that a little bit, this
idea of ownership and how you define it?
Chris: Yeah, I think In particular, I
would love to see more players focused
on internal variables than external
variables, When I stopped pointing
fingers at my coach or the conditions
for the reasons why I wasn't where I
wanted to be, my life changed, right?
So I'm very adamant about this idea
with ownership and responsibility
over what you're doing because this
isn't something only that ties to
your increase in possibility for
success on the soccer field, but it's
something that will aid your life.
It's not necessarily just about soccer.
Like only 1% of kids are
gonna be D1 athletes.
That's a fact.
100% of kids are going to
face life, by the way, right?
When difficult things come, are they
taking responsibility for themselves?
Do they have an idea that their response
to adversity is in their power, right?
So like this is the sort of thing
where you're taking ownership.
Like it's you ultimately accepting
that nobody's coming to save you,
nobody's gonna do the work for you,
and the, your results and your life are
ultimately dictated by your actions.
That's what it comes down to, so it's
like if you're not taking action,
fair play, but you know, the, the
ownership is the biggest component
to it, a-a-at least in my opinion
Matt: Yeah.
Look, I, I think what you just described,
unfortunately, is a microcosm of
society, and it's only become more so
in the world that we live in today.
And I know that makes me sound, uh, old,
and I may be, but I think it's very real.
I think there is so much time and so
much focus on what other people are
doing or how other people are living in
everybody's picturesque world that we've
kind of lost the script a little bit.
And having real accountability, um,
in one's life, whether you're a youth
soccer player or otherwise, is so,
is so critical, and I think it's
probably hard for the kids to see that
if their parents aren't demonstrating
that right, like everything else.
Um,
so
Liron: No, it's excellent, Matt.
Uh, another… May- maybe I
should interview you next week.
But, but in, in… But actually,
as Chris was saying, so what
should the parents own as well?
So we talked about what
the kids should own.
In your point of view,
what should the parents own?
That's excellent
Matt: a good question, Liron.
You should be a professional
Liron: was amazing.
That was great.
Yeah, what a follow-up to
Chris: that, it's tough for me to say in
some sense because I'm new to parenthood.
I'm, I'm, I'm going through
it myself right now as well.
But this is just an example, right?
I think that parents can
consistently demonstrate the example.
The, the kids will watch what you do
and not listen to what you say, right?
So in general, they're-- you could
tell your kid one thing, but if you're
doing something completely opposite,
they're gonna model your behavior,
So it's like as they're watching you,
this has been something I was very,
very clear about in my battle with
pericarditis as I was fighting through
that for two years, you know, still
something I'm kinda dealing with.
But, um, you know, it seems like
it's an unfavorable hand of cards.
You know, it seems
unjust, it seems unfair.
It could be labeled as
tragic in some sense.
But I do think it's a wonderful
opportunity for me to show my
kids and to show my friends and my
family and whoever that regardless
of how tragic it might seem, the
ability to respond is always on you.
The story that you tell yourself about
what you're going through is on you.
So I think that no matter your adversity
or your tragedy or your difficulty
it's still your responsibility to
productively move forward, you know?
And the only way you can do that
is if you decide how you want to
respond and move forward next.
So, like, I've never played b- The
victim card by any sense based on
what I went through, you know, I
got diagnosed with pericarditis.
I had gone to San Diego in my off-season
the year b- when Greg was coming in,
the guy who had me in the national team.
So I had a good relationship with him.
I was ready to revamp my career after
a slow 2023, and I'm ready to come in.
I go into San Diego for four weeks.
I invest a ton of time, a ton of money
into a trainer who was going to help
me get my first step back after I had
had hip surgery, and, you know, I come
back in preseason, I'm flying, I'm fit,
I'm stronger than I'd ever been, and
I was so confident and ready to take
that year on, and I wake up in the
middle of the night with pericarditis,
you know, a, a very severe chest pain.
I ha- I didn't know it
was pericarditis, right?
I went to the ER.
It, it kinda briefly felt like my life
was in jeopardy, so that was scary.
But nonetheless, like, I, I fight
through this for the whole year.
I come ba- I try to come
back, I have another flare.
The doctor, the cardiologist puts me
off for three months, zero activity,
zero bike, zero sauna, zero everything.
I couldn't do anything.
I couldn't walk.
I had to just chill.
Liron: wow, wow
Chris: me being a professional athlete
who's so accustomed to routine,
who's so accustomed to movement, now
has to sit down and do nothing on
a contract year in my prime, right?
I'm just like, "Dude, what is going on?
Am I gonna play soccer next year? Am
I gon- what am I gonna do to pay for
my kids?" Not that I didn't have stuff
saved up, but you know what I'm saying.
I don't, I'm not, I don't have
any income coming in in January,
you know what I'm saying?
Are they gonna sign me?
Who knows?
This was a difficult time, like very
difficult, and thank God at the end of the
year, the Fire signed me again for another
season And I try and come back again, and
I, I push myself through the off-season.
I come back into pre-season, I'm flying.
I start a few games in the beginning
of the year, I play a few games,
and I have another flare in March.
And I try and come back, and I try
and fight, and I try and f- come back,
It's hard to get your confidence back.
It's hard to gain back
the trust of the coach.
They're bringing in other players.
Um, this thing is just moving
past me, and I'm in my prime.
I'm 29 years old, and I try and get
back again, and I have another flare.
And this was, four weeks
ago from right now, right?
And so, in this time, I've obviously
spent the time to build up BTB,
and it's been giving me this
opportunity as I've used it as that.
You know, people say like, "Oh,
well, you worked on your, your
business, and you worked on th-"
It's like, yeah, that was a choice.
it's been very difficult, but at the
same time, like, I'm, I'm ch- I'm
tr- I'm choosing to see this as like,
if you, in general, in life, wanna
be someone who's labeled as strong,
you by definition have to go through
something that is immensely challenging.
If you have never been through
something that's hard, no one's
gonna say that you're strong.
If you've never had to push through
a time when there's a lot of fear
and a lot of uncertainty, no one
say, would say that you were brave.
If it was all certain and if it
was all clear, you… I would never
s- call you a brave person, right?
So, like, by definition, if I wanna be
someone who's brave, if I wanna be someone
who's strong and who has faith in myself,
I have to be going through something,
that's causing me to be patient, that's
forcing me to have faith beyond what I
can see, and that's how you move forward.
And that's what I ultimately
wanna show my kids.
That's what I wanna show all the
players that I'm working with.
It's what I wanna show
the world, honestly.
So I, I do think at the end of the
day, it's a choice, But when parents
can… What they can do is, like,
start taking accountability for
themselves and, like, where they are.
How do they wanna start
acting in their lives?
How do they want their kids to be
dealing with s- with difficult things?
How do they want them to be t- uh,
navigating their relationships?
Are they talking, bad about
people in front of them?
Are they… What do you
want your kid to see?
And can you take ownership for
trying to keep promises that
you're making to yourself to try
and be that emulatable character
that you want your kid to follow?
Matt: Chris, do you have any desire
to coach when your career is over?
Chris: Um, I, I'm, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna leave my doors open.
when this recording comes out,
I'll have announced my retirement.
Um, I'm retiring.
It's gonna come out publicly
on September 4th, on Friday.
Right now it's Wednesday
for the listeners.
Liron: God.
Oh my God.
Geez,
Chris: this, but, uh, again,
it was, it was a choice.
It was a choice.
I'm not gonna sit here and make it
seem like I had to make this decision.
Uh, I think when I look at the cards and
just where I'm at in my life and my kids,
I'm from Chicago, so I'm playing here.
My family's all here.
My kids got their grandparents.
Like, I'm not gonna go and move them to
another city to, you know, sign probably
a minimum deal 'cause I have no leverage.
15-year-old Chris would've been just
as happy, you know, knowing I've
been able to do what I have done.
So, I, I've, I've made this choice, you
know, and i- is coaching in the future?
I don't know.
I would love to get into keynote
speaking, I've already been asked to
do a few, uh, coming the new year,
so I'm looking forward to that.
But, you know, aside from
that, I have my platform.
I'm trying to build out
and help more players.
Liron: Matt, how, how are we gonna
continue the interview after this?
This, uh, I
can hear the awards
Matt: I have I, I ha- I
have chills and
Liron: I know.
Chris, I, I,
Matt: you're, an amazing you're,
Liron: I don't even know
where to go from here.
Matt: young young man who, I'm glad that
you're making this decision for yourself
and for your family, and you clearly are
thinking about it with, with, with, with
everything, uh, processing it in a way
that most most humans aren't able to do
so, especially when you've, you're playing
the sport that you love professionally.
But to your point, you've done it.
You've seen it all.
You've challenged yourself.
You're not leaving anything out there.
And,
Chris: it's, it's hard to see it that way
too though, because you're so competitive
that when I… When I'm, when I'm in
college, I'm like, "I just wanna be on
an MLS roster." I'm on an MLS roster.
I just need to s- I need
to become a starter.
Okay, I'm there.
I need to score 10 goals.
Okay, I'm there.
I need to be on the national team.
Okay, I… And I did everything that I
had set out, and it's like, you, you just
continue to step up in social circles
as you're in the locker room because
you're, you're a guy in the Big Ten
who comes in, and now I'm playing with
Nani, who's won the Champions League,
and, you know, who's won the Premier
League with Manchester United, and now
I'm playing with Lewandowski, right?
So it's like th- it just
makes you feel so small.
You're like, "I haven't done
nothing in this game," right?
And it's like, but in, in the all
reality, like you've done great.
And I came back, and I was talking with
some of my teammates, and I was like,
"It sh- the hardest part is just like
I feel like I could still play, and I
feel like I got a lot more in the tank,
and, and I feel like it could've been
a lot more." And one of my teammates
looks at me, and he was like, "Yeah,
Chris, but it could've been a lot less."
You know?
And it's like that's the st-
It's all in the story that
you tell yourself, you know?
It's like is the story gonna be
rooted in gratitude, or is the
story gonna be rooted in lack?
And that is a literal choice.
I, I get to choose what story I
wanna tell myself, and that's it.
You know?
From there, I'll either live my life
grateful for what I was able to do,
or I'll live my life sulking and sad
and in lack that it wasn't enough.
Liron: Y- y- yeah, no, I mean,
I'm going beyond off script here.
I can't help but reflect thinking of
our young kids' journeys, how hard we're
trying to keep them not one-dimensional,
trying to explain to them that the
path is so narrow in a sense, but also
it's wide, as you're just proving it.
It's not, there is no end.
It kinda just continues as long
as you work hard, and you push,
and you believe in yourself.
And you said that the, the 15-year-old
Chris would have looked at it and
said, "Wow, this is incredible.
Congratulations." And on the other
hand, you're wrapping up a, a football
career saying that you told a story.
You had a story to tell, and you're
telling it, and you're doing it right now.
Again, no question here, just,
just really a comment on how
extraordinary yout story is.
this story is
Matt: Oh, I, I was just gonna say, uh,
I For me, one of the hardest things
of just being a dad in general and,
and, and being a dad to a soon-to-be
15-year-old who can be quite contrarian,
and, it's hard to meet any 14 or
15-year-old that don't think that they
have all the knowledge in the world
world is that we've lived these lives,
and you've lived, you've lived, a, a life
well beyond any 30-year-old in what you've
experienced and the setbacks and how
you've persevered and all of those things,
right, and what you've accomplished.
And I think the, the hard part is that
the reason we share stories, the reason
we parent the way we do, or talk to our
kids the way we do, or whatever it may
be, or support them, is because we want
to help them make the right decisions.
But ultimately they've gotta figure
out that stuff on their own, and it's
like knowing when to push, knowing
when to pull, knowing when to let
go, and it's, uh, it's really hard.
We're, we're, we're way off
script at
Chris: Nah, I- get
Matt: But I'll tell you, I mean, I
listen to you and I'm like … I'm
sitting here clipping all of it in my
mind saying, "Gosh, I can't wait for
my son to listen to this." And I'm
like, "I hope he listens," because
they think they know everything
Chris: To be fair, this has been like,
just in some of the courses and some of
the lessons that I talk about, like a
lot of the parents that I work with who
are in my courses are like, you… A
lot of times you're, you're re- you're
saying things that we often say, but
he just doesn't listen to us , and
it's exactly, it's exactly what you're
saying, But also, like, uh, Liron, you
said, like, this, it's about the story,
you know, and like what, what everybody
wants to relate to and what everybody
wants for themselves is to be able
to look back and tell a good story.
that's what I'm trying to, install
and infuse into these kids is,
like, your life is an adventure.
Like, it's not about necessarily
where you get it, but it's about who
you're gonna become because you commit
yourself to a high and lofty goal.
You know, so, like, that's… In soccer
specifically, that's why the goal and
setting the goal, like, I wanna play
in college, it's a lofty thing to do
because it's less than 1%, but the
person that has to become manifest
by committing themselves to a goal,
it will force them to make sacrifices
when they don't wanna do things.
They have to go and do hard things.
They have to push through difficulty.
They have to learn how to lead themselves.
They have to learn how to
communicate with their teammates.
They have to learn how to find
confidence in themselves on the field.
No matter if you make it or not,
the goal is the person that you're
becoming because you have this goal.
It's like complexity is
the enemy of execution.
If it's too complex and there's way
too many options, you're not gonna act.
It's like simplify on what's
gonna help you move forward to
what you think is important.
Liron: amazing.
I mean, I know you, um, I know
you're helping through BTB.
Part of, of the help is to guide
families through, let's say, the
college process, do you also train
the families you work with on what
college coaches actually wanna see?
Chris: yeah, just in terms of like
when they're coming to watch players at
tournaments, it's not just the kid who
can shoot a ball in the top corner, right?
Like every kid in every team, if
you've gone out to a game, can
shoot a ball and score in a top
corner or can make a good play.
Like they're coaches not looking for
someone who can make a single good play.
They're gonna come and they're gonna
watch how are you warming up, you know,
are you preparing yourself properly, do
you shake everyone's hand after the game?
Like they… After you pique their
interest via your ability, they're gonna
check in on your character, they're gonna
call your school counselors, they're
gonna call your club coaches, they're
gonna see, come out to your training
sessions when you don't know it, right?
They're like trying to evaluate a lot
more, so I'm trying to tell them like
building yourself into a recruitable
prospect is a lot more important than
just getting recruited because you're
focusing on the external variables.
Becoming recruitable is
completely different.
You know?
So like developing the talent, yes,
I think that like some kids obviously
have talent, but talent's not enough.
You know, we, we know that, right?
So like trying to infuse and install
these like, again, underlying things
that college coaches are looking
for, but then again, like in the
Recruiter's Desk, for example, which
is a part of my course, uh, courses,
it talks about like what, what college
coaches wanna see on highlight tapes.
You know, what, what do they
wanna see in the emails?
Like I've had coaches tell me that
k- kids will, you know, address them
wrong, you know, or spell their name
wrong or, you know, talk to them about
something that wasn't necessarily
relevant, or they'll put something in
their highlight tape that didn't display
what their position even was, right?
So it's like w- how can we get clear on
like what actually matters and what you
need to be doing in your recruitment
process, but also then I come in on
the side of like helping you stand
out on the field by infusing all these
things off the field that can help
you, uh, increase your confidence on it
Liron: Well, you have me
pumped up, that's for sure.
I, I, I know that.
Uh,
Chris: It's gonna go
Matt: Chris, where, uh, where, where
can our listeners, where can they
find you, and how do they engage?
Chris: Yeah, so everything is on
BTB The Official on Instagram, on
my website at BTB The Official.
We have a newsletter.
Uh, we also have a podcast launching
here, uh, in the next month or
two, so that'll be exciting.
Um, I'm cmuller1662 on Instagram,
so you can go there on Twitter.
Like everything is linked to
BTB ultimately because that's,
everything that we're doing.
I have a book, um, Bet On Yourself, that I
published in 2021, so that's also, uh, up
and running on Amazon and on the website.
So yeah, everything is at BTB The Official
Matt: Amazing.
Liron: No, it's, it's, I, I,
I c- I, I'm, I'm inspired.
I, um,
Matt: Sorry
Liron: I'm sorry that the circumstances…
I probably shouldn't apologize for it.
I'm sorry those circumstances have, have
robbed you from something that you didn't
fulfill as far as you felt you should
have, but in a way you're exactly right,
and that's what's, what's wonderful
here, is that this is your story, and
it is unique, and you wouldn't have
been at this point with perseverance,
and your lessons to teach others, if
it wasn't for your attitude and, uh,
your wonderful dedication and, and, uh,
with amazing communication skills, too.
These parents have so much
to benefit from, from,
someone like you, Chris.
I
Matt: And the impact you're gonna have
is actually gonna be far greater with
the number of kids and families that
you end up working with and impacting.
And I don't just mean that
from a soccer perspective.
I mean, if, if people are paying attention
to the messages that you're sharing and
actually living them through, they're
gonna end up being much more productive
members of society, which is, uh, whi-
which is far more important than the
footballer, uh, that, that we all tend to,
More,
Liron: More, yeah.
Yeah, more than Lewandowski
can ever say about himself.
guarantee you that.
Chris: I don't know about that.
But no, I appreciate the kind words, guys.
It's, uh, means a lot.
A warrior's wow, Matt.
Man, Oh, this is going, it's going to be hard to get over.
Chris told us nobody calls you brave until
something goes wrong.
Then he sat there and he showed us what that means.
Yeah, the practical takeaway is not that pathways do not matter.
It is that we need to stop confusing preparation with control.
Chris was clear about the player's side.
Nobody's coming to save you.
Nobody's going to do the work for you.
Yeah, this can sound hard until you hear the
rest of the story, right?
His parents supported him
and when he wanted to transfer from a school, they didn't clear any
obstacles for him, as you and I would have done.
They told him that going somewhere else as
the same person would not solve it.
So he stayed.
He had to change himself.
And left as the only two-time All-American
in Wisconsin's program.
It's extraordinary.
Extraordinary.
But then life gives him a problem no routine could solve,
a heart condition, a serious heart condition.
Repeated flare-ups, months with no activity,
a contract year, passing, while other players came
in, and the game moved on.
And a young man starting a family, thinking about
the next phase of his life.
Amazing.
This is where something a teammate told
him, and I quote, yeah, Chris, but it could have been a lot less
And this is another so much so many extraordinary lines.
This is such a simple one too, right?
He still believed he could play, and then there was more in
the tank, but things could be true and he
could still be grateful for everything that he's accomplished.
Chris put the choice this way.
Is the story going to be rooted in gratitude, or is the story
going to be rooted in lack?
This is not pretending the outcome did not hurt.
It's choosing what the hurt gets to mean.
And this is common to all, Matt.
As parents, we want to spare our kids of all the detours, right?
I know I do.
If my son calls and says things are not working, my first instinct
is going to be, start calling everyone.
I know, well, I call you.
Then I call everyone, I know, and I try to fix it.
Chris's story asks us whether the
more important help is sometimes teaching them how to sit in a hard moment
and decide who they're going to be.
Yeah, and that changes how we talk about a lofty goal.
Chris said, the goal is the person that you're becoming because
you have this goal.
If college or the pros are the only measure, the unforeseen
can make the whole thing feel like failure.
If the work also builds discipline and ownership,
the player does not walk away empty-handed.
Yeah, maybe that's what Chris gave us when the interview
went off script.
The path narrowed, it changed, and it ended sooner than he wanted
but his story did not.
He started building BTB, working with players and
families, and he wrote the Bet On Yourself book.
You can find everything at BTB The Official, and
Chris himself on Instagram at cmuller1662.
Thank you to Chris Mueller for trusting us with this part of
the story we did not know we were going to hear.
Yeah, Matt, promise you, next week, back on script.
It's because I get my questions.
All right, all right.
Of course you did.
Listen, parents, if you know one family gripping the pathway
with both hands right in front of you, send them this episode.
I mean, just, you know what?
Just send anybody this episode.
My God.
This is Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America, an episode
for the Warriors and all of us.
That's for you, Matt.
Thanks, Liron