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At some point in our lives we all get scared – of making the wrong decision, of not being a good parent, or that everyone will figure out we’re just making it up as we go.
I’ve spent years helping leaders work through fear, stress, and uncertainty. Now I’m making a podcast about how they face their fears and come out stronger.
It’s for founders, leaders, and business owners who feel like they’re constantly fighting uphill and not finding the balance they need to be effective at work and present at home.
Sally-Anne 00:00:00 So, Joss, tell me, where did it all start?
Joss 00:00:04 So it probably all started at university when my girlfriend at the time bought me John Crackers into Thin Air, which was about the Everest disaster. And after reading the book, I think I've always had a fascination with high altitude mountaineering exploration, like the, I guess, the limits of human capabilities. And for me, that was I guess that was where the fascination started. But it's been quite a long path to get to Denali. From there, it wasn't a read a book. Let's go to Denali. and my early forays into, I guess, altitude exploration, there were some hiccups. I didn't do very well. I made all the usual rookie mistakes that you do. I tried to climb.
Sally-Anne 00:00:50 For those of us who don't know, what are the. What are the usual kind of mistakes?
Joss 00:00:56 naivete is probably the biggest mistake, but just not knowing how to acclimatise. It's very, very easy to go too high too quickly and people see these enormous 8000 metre peaks and maybe aware that that that takes a long time to acclimatise for that.
Joss 00:01:15 But it doesn't need to be that high. My first kind of foray into altitude exploration was Mount Fuji in Japan. It's only 3700m. I naively thought, yeah, that'd be fine. I can do that in the day. So left Tokyo on a train. Try to do it in a day. Got probably, I don't know, 2500, 3000m up. And I was feeling dizzy, like almost hallucinating. Nauseous. Definitely not in a good place. Showing all the classical signs of altitude sickness. didn't summit that day. Thankfully. Found a closed refuge to spend the night in before resetting and going again the next day. And, I didn't learn from it. I did exactly the same thing. Next mountain I tried to climb, which was Mount Tubercle in North Africa. hiked from, yeah, from Kathmandu up to the, I guess the refuge that everyone would then summit from had a horrendous night where I couldn't sleep. Thumping, headache, heart beating like crazy. And so after that I've learned a lot more.
Joss 00:02:22 I've learned what my capabilities are, how to acclimatize. But the early steps weren't smooth.
Sally-Anne 00:02:28 Well, you know, though, those of us who were fascinated by the limits of human capability and we'll read about them in a book or watch a movie, you've taken it into your personal experience. So you're not just fascinated. You want to you want to understand what it means in reality for you, right?
Joss 00:02:48 Yeah, I've I think as I get older, I'm enjoying exploring my kind of physical and endurance capabilities. figuring out what those limits are. I'm definitely long past the days where let's just seek out a adrenaline junkie. Mad stuff in the moment. There's more of a process these days.
Sally-Anne 00:03:10 Okay, so the process. So you you decided at some point to climb Mount Denali over 6000m. Tell us about that. What? What happened? And you went with a friend. So let's kind of understand what was going on there.
Multiple Speakers 00:03:30 Yeah. So, I guess in my, journey.
Joss 00:03:35 Of high altitude exploration, I've come across something called the Seven Summits, which is the highest summit on each of the seven continents.
Joss 00:03:44 So, Everest is the one that everyone's heard of. A lot of people probably think Mont Blanc is the highest one in Europe. it's the highest one in Western Europe. It's Mount Elbrus in Eastern Europe. And then each continent has its own high summit. And to climb all seven summits is. I guess it's the thing in mountaineering. It's, it's a it's a big box to tick and a the first person to do it, I believe, was Dick bass. And that's a whole nother story. That's, an interesting one on the start of modern commercial alpinism, but it's, I guess, climbing Everest and the 8000 meter peaks. That's another league and quite difficult to achieve. But there are several of the seven summits which are definitely obtainable. and Denali being the highest peak in North America is one of them. So that was the reason, Denali is on the bucket list. And the friend I went with, a friend called Todd Ainsworth, who I've known for a long time. We we've been on a few adventures together, and we've done some mountaineering here in the Alps around Mont Blanc.
Joss 00:04:55 We went to Aconcagua together, which is the highest peak in South America in Argentina, and we also spent some time trekking in Nepal. So we've had quite a bit of time at altitude together. I've normally taken the lead role like I'm the slightly more experienced of the two. but together we've been trying to, I guess, improve our skill set. whether that's our technical knowledge, using things like crampons and axes and rope work, the fitness that goes alongside it, the fitter you are, the. I don't want to say the easier it is, but maybe the more enjoyable. Possibly. It's not always enjoyable, so I'm not sure that's the right word, but the fit you are, the better chance you have of success. so it's a journey we've been on together and, yeah, it was probably Two years ago or so where we decided yet. We think we're ready for Denali. Let's get it in the diary and start getting things booked.
Sally-Anne 00:06:00 Deciding you're ready. And again, you can only know that from experience, can't you? Otherwise, how would you possibly know that you're ready to do this thing?
Joss 00:06:09 It's.
Joss 00:06:10 It's such a difficult one to know when you're ready, because before you do it, you can do all the research. You can talk to people who've done it. You can read blogs online. You can look at videos. But until you're actually there and in it, you're never 100% sure you can be as prepared as you can be. But there's still that moment of, oh God, I go for it and and just hope that you've prepared well enough.
Sally-Anne 00:06:36 Yeah. That's such a, you know, and that applies to so many things. Anyway, let's go back to this climb. So there you were. Let's take us there. Take us there. Joss. You thought you were ready. You went. You went for it. Take us to that point of arrival. At the bottom. At the top.
Joss 00:06:55 Yeah, yeah. So it's, as part of the acclimatization training. so I live in San Juan in France, which is, we're based at 700m, which is better than sea level, but doesn't really count.
Joss 00:07:12 Whereas Todd lives in Colorado at 3000m, so he's got quite a big head start on me. So instead of flying straight to Alaska, I went and spent a few days with him in Colorado. and we spent a few days. nothing technical, nothing arduous, but just hiking the local hills which get up to 4000m quite easily. So that was, I guess, the pre acclimatization part of the trip. from Colorado flew up to Anchorage in Alaska. and we were really lucky. Todd had, has a friend with a cabin which is two miles from the base town, which everyone uses. So we were able to use his car drive from Anchorage to his cabin in the woods, which was. That in itself was an adventure to live in a cabin in the woods where there are bears around and moose. And you can't just go to the toilet. You have to take bear spray with you. That was a good adventure in itself. and then, everybody who climbs Denali for the most part starts at a town called Talkeetna, which is basically at sea level, and you get an air taxi, which is a 1960s otter airplane.
Joss 00:08:26 So if you think of Indiana Jones and Plane in that, that's the plane you're in, you're behind the captain. Sorry. The pilot. You can, you can talk to him. You've all got radios so you can hear his communication with the control tower. Amazing. You fly over this amazing range with the most beautiful views of starts off with a kind of tundra like lots of lakes, the odd cabin in the woods and then builds to the foothills and there's glaciers everywhere. And at this point you're mentally thinking like, oh, like that's where we're going to land quite soon. This is feeling quite real now. Yes. and they, they land the plane on a little side, side glacier. so you land it, I'm going to have to do most things in feet because it's America. They work in feet, and most of their base camps are based on the height of feet. the plane lands at 7800ft on the side. Glacier drops you off with. We had about 120 kilos of gear between us.
Joss 00:09:35 So all your foods, all your, all your fuel or your equipment or your layers. Everything you need to survive on your own. For we are two weeks worth. We'd originally planned for a bit more, but we had two weeks worth of get. Okay, they drop you off, then the plane flies off, and then you've got this sudden feeling of this is real. We are here. We're on our own. We went unguided. There are other people around. There's other people who get off the plane at the same time as you. There's people waiting to get off the mountain to finish their expedition. But yeah, that was very much the this is real. This is where we are. We we need to go. So.
Sally-Anne 00:10:20 So in that moment of. This is real. How did it feel?
Joss 00:10:27 it's really difficult to describe it. You you want to take a moment just to absorb where you are? taking the scenery, because there, from there, you can't see the summit of Denali, but the Mount Hunter and Mount Foraker are right there, which are also very famous mountains in the Alaska Range.
Joss 00:10:49 Hunter especially, it kind of looks like the Eiger. So you've got this enormous thousand metre plus face there that's really intimidating. So I think you just try and collect your thoughts. Really gather yourself, enjoy where you are. But quite quickly. it's a we have a task to do where we were dropped off late at night. the planes hadn't been able to fly for a few days due to the weather. they got a clearing. We were dropped off at 7 p.m., and we wanted to get to camp. Camp one, basically, which is relatively flat, but it's quite a long distance, and we knew it would take a few hours to get there. And, because of our proximity to, well, how far north you are. the sun sets, but you always have daylight, so we weren't time restricted, but we want to maintain a fairly normal body clock, so it's probably after five minutes or so. We we've unpacked our gear. We need to get moving. it's time to get out of camp.
Joss 00:11:57 Really? And, 60 kilos each is too much to carry on your back in one go. So about half of it goes on your back, and then you have a sled, or a puck, or some people call them. so you load up your sleds, you, you arrange your rigging, your rope work, so you tie everything to the sled, make sure it's secure. You don't want anything falling off and disappearing down the mountain. and then you have to attach the sled to yourself, so that it it doesn't run away and lose all your kit once you're ready. and Todd and I had never had the opportunity to train with the sled, so there was a little bit of, I guess, technique figuring out. So my previous comments of all the preparation, like some of it, you have to just figure out when you're there. and then we set off for camp one, which I think we got there at about 11, 1130. And, we were the first people to leave base camp.
Joss 00:12:56 So we very much a feeling of being alone in the mountains. And, we know the route the route is marked with, what are called wands and bamboo stakes and the snow. So you can follow what's a predefined, relatively safe track, avoiding crevasses. and there are signs that camp one has been used. So people generally build snow walls around the tent to protect them from the weather. There'll be signs of previous life. it probably took us an hour to set up the tent. boil some water, rehydrate food to eat and get into bed, and, I guess. Try and sleep well and recover a little bit before the. What really was the real adventure for the following days?
Sally-Anne 00:13:44 Because I imagine rest is very important. The right amount of rest. Yeah, it's.
Joss 00:13:52 Absolutely it's important. it's difficult to recover once you start going higher up. but yeah, you can't move all the time. Every day. You have to stop. You have to sleep. taking rest days when and where you can or when appropriate.
Joss 00:14:09 It's important. but, equally with rest is staying hydrated and just trying to consume as many calories as you can. It's once you get to altitude and everyone's different, but it's really hard to eat. Especially the higher you go. so it's not possible to maintain weight, basically. It doesn't matter how much you eat, the the amount of calories you're burning, it's you lose weight. So, Yeah, that's that's part of the challenge. so, yeah, rest, hydration, nutrition are all really important.
Sally-Anne 00:14:45 Yes. And does it help? I mean, we didn't talk about this, but does it help to bulk up a bit, so to speak, before you even start so that the loss of weight is.
Joss 00:14:53 Oh, that's a really good question. And there's, there's differing theories. as I mentioned earlier, you fitness is a big part of it. You want to turn up as strong and physically fit as you can. and I guess this is one where just a bit of experience comes in.
Joss 00:15:13 my natural weight is 80, 81 kilos. I know if I get much below 75 kilos, then my energy levels drop off. Like I start to lose a bit of performance. but at the same time, if you're too heavy, you're carrying more weight, and you're slower and it's harder. So, I knew from experience from prior expeditions I was probably going to lose in the region of 4 to 5 kilos, over the trip. And for whatever reason, I decided my target weight at the start of the trip would be 78 kilos. and I thought so. So a bit a bit less than normal. I think I got it just about right, as we'll probably come to later on in the podcast. and when we when we left the mountain, I was 73 kilos. So I was kind of right on the estimates of weight loss. And the last day or so was was getting tricky. I was feeling a bit low on energy. and if I was to go on a longer expedition, I would definitely go heavier than 78 and possibly go a bit heavier than my natural weight, just so there was a bit of reserve.
Sally-Anne 00:16:27 Yeah, I guess, yeah, as you say, creating reserve. Such an interesting again. No right answer. Right. Everybody's different. Every challenge is different. You know, finding that, I guess. Sweet spot if that's the right term for this. But yeah. Finding the right balance. Okay. So there you are. You've done base camp. You've slept reasonably well. You get on.
Joss 00:16:50 As well as possible. And yeah, I guess to set the scene a little bit more. As soon as you land on the glacier, you are on snow. So, you start off with dry equipment. and because at the start, you're relatively low altitude, it's easier to breathe. It's easier to sleep. everything is dry and smells fresh at this point. the further you go, there's no washing machine up there. There's no laundry facilities. It's hard to. Yeah. Funnily enough, no, there's no laundry mat at 5000m on Denali, which is there's a good business opportunity there, so I'm ready to open it.
Joss 00:17:32 so the further into the trip you go, the harder it is to sleep. and I, I'd actually, see my GP beforehand to, And she prescribed me some, prescription sleeping pills, which I've not taken before, but wanted to try to help me sleep. and with mixed success. I took him a few times, but actually stopped taking them higher up the mountain because, Yeah, they were causing some adverse effects which weren't desirable.
Sally-Anne 00:18:03 Okay. Okay. So you slept best you could. You set off, and I imagine the mind. And clearly the body needs to be a fit, as you've already said. Clearly. And the mind is a big factor here. You know, that sort of sense of, very, very powerful intention that drives you forward, the drive, you know, let's but let's, let's move on to sort of Full day one. I suppose you've had a several. You know, you've walked for several hours when you first landed and then you've got your first full day.
Sally-Anne 00:18:34 So talk us through that a little bit.
Joss 00:18:38 Yeah. So to go from camp one to camp two, which is known as camp 11 because it's at 11,000ft. most teams will spend three days doing it, because of the change in altitude from camp one to camp two. And there are a few pitches which are quite steep. It's really challenging to do it with all your gear in one go. So the normal way you would leave your camp where it is, leave tent, set up, leave all your cooking equipment and you would take approximately half of your gear and take it two thirds three quarters of the way up to the next camp and then stash it. You dig a hole, you bury your kit. You leave some ones to mark where it is. Take a GPS location and go back to camp. Spend the night. On day two, you would pack up camp, move everything up to the next camp. Spend the night there. On on day three, you would actually go back down the mountain to retrieve your cache before getting up to your high camp.
Joss 00:19:42 So normally it takes three days. We'd lost a little bit of time getting onto the mountain. As I mentioned earlier, due to weather, and we were quite keen to, I guess, try and get back on schedule. I would feel strong on the previous day hauling all our kids in one go. So we moved from camp one to camp 11 in a single push. So all of our kids and we knew it would be a long day. We knew it would be slow. but we we felt strong enough to do it. And there were two other teams who had made it to camp one that night. one team was doing the same as us. They were doing a single push and one team was stashing gear. So we again, from doing our research and talking to people and reading people's kind of blogs of their experiences, we knew it was possible. We knew it wasn't a stupid idea, but yeah, we knew we were in for a long day.
Sally-Anne 00:20:38 Basically, yes.
Joss 00:20:39 And, we started off in bluebird conditions like clear skies, no wind, hot.
Joss 00:20:49 so t shirts, all vents open, trying to stay cool. You don't want to sweat too much. as the day went on, we were first out of camp, but the other teams caught up with us and passed us. the team who were stashing gear that they were lights. They were super quick. The other team who were doing a single haul, they were time restricted. So they they had to move quickly. They were going really light and fast. So so they were quick enough and that's fine. It's not a race. You will always be surrounded by people who are fitter, stronger, better than you. That's okay. as long as you're not the weakest. You like. You don't want to be last. mid-pack is perfectly acceptable. so these two teams have overtaken us. We can see them. The visibility is good. We can see the ones. We can follow the route. But as the days going on, the weather's closing in. The cloud comes in, it starts to snow.
Joss 00:21:47 The wind picks up very much winter alpine conditions. So all our layers are on. I'm in the lead with Todd roped up to me behind me, and it's getting harder to follow the trail. Not concerned. We we've got all the equipment with us that we can navigate our way. Or if things go really bad, we can just set up camp wherever we are. We've we've got two weeks of food. We've got all the kit we need. We're safe. There's just the mental challenge of. Are we comfortable with still pushing forward? So. To which the answer was yes. but we we did have a, I guess, a little moment, which I actually really enjoyed, where it was getting really hard to follow the trail, but we could just about see once, and we caught up with the team in front of us who were stashing their gear. so they're digging a pit and and unpacking things, and we carry on past them, and then suddenly there's no trail where we can't see any ones.
Joss 00:22:49 There's no signs of a track previously. And it was very much a the common phrases, the inside of a ping pong ball. So that'll hopefully conjure up ideas of what you can see that there's no differentiation between sky and land, there's no texture to anything. You can see the tips of your snowboard, but not much else. And knowing, knowing that we're in heavily glaciated terrain. So there are regions of crevasses. There are regions where avalanche is very much a risk. It is snowing quite hard. I feel safe where we currently are, but it doesn't seem the right idea to keep going blindly when we're not sure if we're on the trail or if we've lost the trail. So I guess a quick conversation between us and we agree. What did we do? We we basically we dug a small pit, so that we could get into and protect ourselves from the weather, to get out the wind so we don't get too cold and decide that we can wait an hour. We have time. We're not daylight restricted.
Joss 00:23:57 Let's just see if we get a clearing, to see if we're on the right track or not. See if we're going the right way. and we we waited for about an hour. We got a very brief clearing directly in front of where we were going. it told us we were on the wrong track. There was no signs of any ones or anything, so it's okay. We're not going in the right direction. What do we do? How do we refine the trail? amazingly. And luckily, the teams stashing their gear were still there. They were behind us. So we went back to them to talk to them. And a lesson learnt. We probably should have spoke to them the second we saw them on the first time round. They had actually lost the trail about half an hour before and the ones that had been following were their ones. So we'd been following their trail to a dead end and a like a little bit of talking with them on a Tod and myself. We think the trail is off to the right.
Joss 00:24:57 What do you guys think? And we all came to the same conclusion. so to refine the trail, by this point, there's about a foot of fresh snow, right? It had been coming down pretty hard and fast. And to break trail, I'd be the first to go through the snow with a sled and a backpack is hard work. And if you know you're going in the right direction, you can commit to it. It's okay, but to spend an unknown period of time searching for a trail with heavy kit didn't seem like the right idea. So we we dropped all of our unessential equipment at where we were. We we basically took a bearing compass bearing to where we thought the trail would be set off lightweight with some bamboo ones ourselves. And we weren't far off the trail. After maybe 2 or 300m, we refound the trail. It was easy to say that we're safe. That's back on track. We've marked where we've just been so we can go back and get our equipment and we're good to go.
Joss 00:26:03 And the reason I enjoyed that process was I didn't feel like we made any mistakes during it. I felt like we were presented with a challenge. We considered our options and we selected an option which got us back to where we needed to be safely. So it was, it was a good feel test, let's say.
Sally-Anne 00:26:26 so that's the part of the limit of human capability, isn't it? That's the part of testing your own in the moment. Ingenuity, presence, resourcefulness. That sounds like something you really like. Problem solving? Yes.
Joss 00:26:43 Yeah. Problem solving. you mentioned earlier that my background is engineering. so I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, and a lot of engineering is problem solving. Yeah. And that for me personally translate quite well to mountaineering, climbing the things I do where, yeah, you're presented with a problem and you have to think through the options on how you can solve it and it and that can apply to any walk of life that doesn't have to be outdoor adventuring. That can be your professional life.
Joss 00:27:13 it can apply to lots of things. And it it. At no point during that situation did I feel I'd say scared or uncomfortable. It was it. We're safe. We have everything we need to, I guess, solve this problem. We just need to work through it in a logical process.
Sally-Anne 00:27:31 Indeed. And, but but also, you know, having the presence of mind to do that just because what you're talking about in simplistic terms are transferable skills, right? You know, you know how to do this. You were trained in this. You're an engineer. You can problem solve in that context. And what you've done is you've taken that into an entirely different environment, but use the same logic, the same skills, the same. You've applied what you know to an entirely different situation. And that in itself is probably more remarkable than you might believe it to be. Not at all I can.
Joss 00:28:06 Do that, is I, I think it's fair to say I'm aware not everyone can do that.
Joss 00:28:13 it's. But but it's like, as we said earlier, there's. This isn't our first time in the mountains where, there is experience prior to that situation, which helps with that situation. So, every winter I spend a lot of time on snow, snowboarding, split boarding out in the mountains, out in the backcountry with friends, sometimes alone. And you're presented with problems. So this isn't it. While the problem itself was unique, the solution was unique. The concept of being faced with a challenge and having to find a solution that in itself is a skill. And that's one that, I guess, being built upon with experience. And over time and many seasons in many winter seasons in the mountains.
Sally-Anne 00:29:01 What I'm hearing, I suppose, is that it's not it's not just a new challenge to problem solve. It's what I'm hearing is, is that you vanish this. Oh, here's something that hasn't quite happened in this way before. Yippee! Is that fair?
Joss 00:29:19 I think it's fair. I don't want to give the impression it's something I actively seek out.
Joss 00:29:25 Because in an ideal scenario, it doesn't happen very often. But the. I guess maybe the perfect day in the mountains is where it all goes smoothly. you're back at home with a beer and a pizza half an hour before you expected. You got some great photos there. Nobody had any falls. There was no challenges there. But those days are quite rare. So I think it's part maybe accepting the problem solving is very much a part of it. So why shy away from it? It's better to embrace it and try and enjoy it. rather than I guess some people would go into their shell. and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's it's part of being in the mountains. So. Yeah. Try and enjoy it. Try and enjoy all of it.
Sally-Anne 00:30:13 Yes. Finding every single moment challenging or otherwise finding the joy in it. Yeah. That's again applies to so many other things. But here we are in the mountains. So I'm just thinking about this. You know, you were two weeks there.
Sally-Anne 00:30:27 You mentioned. And we want to get a flavour of the whole experience. So moving beyond this first full day, which in and of itself sounded sounds pretty challenging when you cast your mind over the whole experience. What are the sort of highlights for you that you want us to hear about?
Joss 00:30:51 the obvious highlight, is the fact that we got to summit. yeah. Okay. For me, there's always a major objective on a trip like this, which is to come home safely. like that is always your primary objective. If you don't do that. You've failed, in my opinion, and then the secondary objective is to try and sum it up. And for Todd myself, the third objective was to try and snowboard off the summit.
Sally-Anne 00:31:18 So it just sounds I mean, I can't wait to get to that because that to me. Yeah, exactly.
Joss 00:31:24 Yeah. so that was the obvious highlight. and then the second part, which I, if I were to use the word decline certification, that would be familiar to people who have who've done similar expeditions to this, but may need to explain for those who don't know it, on the way up, you acclimatize slowly.
Joss 00:31:45 As we mentioned earlier, you can't brush up and do it in one go. On the way down, you can go down as fast as you want. but a very important part of decline certification is enjoying putting the weight back on. So you lose quite a lot of weight on the way up when you get down. that first day back in Talkeetna, where we drank way too much. we we ate nonstop all day. but it's not just the one day. This carries on for quite a long time. So, the drinking subsides fairly quickly, but the eating does carry on for weeks, and that's a part I enjoy. I like food. A big part of exercise. A big part of exercise for me is that you get to eat afterwards. So having probably 6 or 7 weeks when you come home to just stuffing your face with whatever you want, it can be packets of crisps, biscuits, chips, fried chicken. It doesn't matter. You're allowed to eat it until you get back to your normal weights.
Sally-Anne 00:32:49 yeah.
Joss 00:32:49 Those are probably two of the biggest highlights. And then the third one, which will will probably end up talking more about was, Is, During the trip and prior to the trip we spoke about, you never quite know if you're ready. And there were times on the mountain where I had, I guess, a mild sense of imposter syndrome. Do I deserve to be here? Am I ready to be here? There are people here who are much stronger than we are, who've got a much more impressive CV. are we capable of doing this? And then when you when you get down, you're finished and you're safely back at the bar. It's, We were capable. We were ready. We did have every right to be there. And that, I guess, the the removal of that imposter syndrome feeling that for me, that that was a big one. I yeah, I enjoyed that feeling.
Sally-Anne 00:33:53 I bet. So tell us about one of the moments or more where you did feel it, though nonetheless.
Sally-Anne 00:34:00 Up on the mountain.
Joss 00:34:02 Is a feeling of imposter syndrome or.
Sally-Anne 00:34:05 Yeah, we shouldn't be here, we're not fit enough, strong enough, etc.. Well, tell us about one of those moments, if you can call it to mind.
Joss 00:34:13 It's a really good question, Sally, but I don't think there was any ever any specific moment. I didn't at any point feel like we're horrendously out of depth. I didn't have a specific moment of, we don't have the skill set for this or we're not fit enough. It was just a kind of a general background feeling on, each day is going to present new things. so there's the expedition as a whole where, like, are we ready for this? But each day would have its individual tasks on, a yeah. I don't think there was an individual moment of, wow, I don't think we should be here. It just that kind of general background. I like it, I guess.
Sally-Anne 00:34:59 Yeah. Like a yeah. Background. Hum. Like a kind of an undercurrent is what I'm feeling.
Sally-Anne 00:35:03 Yes. And you know. Looking back and thinking about it now. Is that there's a kind of a fear there. Fear of something. Fear of not succeeding. Fear of making a fool of yourself. Whatever. I'm making things up here. But was there a fear that's associated with the imposter? The sense of imposter syndrome?
Joss 00:35:25 Yeah, I guess so. I it's I guess I did. I didn't want us to come back embarrassed at how we performed. I know, we've both got a really good set, like, group of friends who are all well aware of what we're doing, and it's. And if we haven't summited, that's okay. You can deal with that. But if you go and just make a fool of yourself, and then when you get back and you're sharing that beer with your friends and telling the stories and you know they're looking at you like, yeah, you weren't ready. You shouldn't have been there. There is, I guess, a fear of being in that situation.
Joss 00:36:02 No, not a massive fear. But it's.
Sally-Anne 00:36:04 You.
Joss 00:36:05 Know, when you dedicate a lot of time and effort and money because it's not cheap. You put a lot of resources into something you want to be proud of, your kind of your achievements and how you did. So then, yeah, the fear of not not being able to do that. yeah, that was a real fear. I wouldn't say a huge fear, not a significant one, but but it was definitely there.
Sally-Anne 00:36:29 It's there. So you're listening to this. This sort of fear of embarrassment. I'm hearing something to do with personal credibility. Does that resonate.
Joss 00:36:40 It? Yeah. I think like, we all have our friend networks and the really good friends. You do care about their opinions. You care about what they think. And it's. Yeah, it's totally okay to fail on your primary. Not your primary objective. That that one's come home. It's totally okay to fail on some of your objectives. and you shouldn't be ashamed of those, but it's a what are the reasons for the failures? So I guess I didn't want to come back home.
Joss 00:37:10 And any failures being because we, we, we weren't capable of doing what we were doing, we should we shouldn't have been there.
Sally-Anne 00:37:18 Yeah. And you know what I'm hearing? I know you're referencing other people here and what they might think or say, but, you know, I'm hearing being more about living with yourself with that.
Joss 00:37:28 And it's as I'm. Yeah, as I'm talking, I'm thinking the same thing. It's. Yeah, it's been comfortable in your own skin when you come back home like I. Yes. Ultimately. Are you proud of how you performed or or are you ashamed or somewhere in the middle? It's not a black and white situation and it's. Yeah, wanted to come home and be be comfortable in my own skin of how we're done.
Sally-Anne 00:37:51 Yeah. In the end, that is what matters most, isn't it?
Joss 00:37:56 Yeah, it's. I know what matters most is coming home safely. Yeah, I know that part.
Sally-Anne 00:38:03 Yes.
Joss 00:38:03 Excepting that. Yeah. If you come home and you're ashamed, but you're still alive, that that's better than not coming home.
Joss 00:38:09 It's. But it's. Yeah, I guess ultimately it's that is the most important one, being comfortable in your own skin on how you've done and other people's opinions. While they're important, they're not the most important.
Sally-Anne 00:38:21 No. Interesting isn't it? So many factors here. And then recognizing what actually really matters. So you reached the peak. Take us there. What was it like.
Joss 00:38:36 At the summit?
Sally-Anne 00:38:37 Yes, the summit.
Joss 00:38:39 The summit. So we're skipping out a couple of fairly key events lower down, which I am.
Sally-Anne 00:38:45 I don't let me brush over them. What are.
Joss 00:38:47 They? No, no, no. you've asked about the summit. So let's talk about the summit. Okay. as I mentioned before, I, I've been to a couple of well, I've been to, Kilimanjaro in Africa, and I've been to the top of Elbrus in Europe. And there's a point when you're maybe 5 to 10 minutes from the summit and you know, you're going to get to the summit. And for me, that's the most magical moment on the mountain.
Joss 00:39:19 It's brilliant because all the hard work, you know, you're going to achieve your objective. You're not there yet, but but you can see it. You're like, you know, it's in touching distance. And those are the kind of five, ten minutes where you can you can give yourself a really big pat on the back. Basically, you can savor the moments. Your stress levels can drop a little bit, providing the terrain safe to do so. And while Todd and I had, we'd been on a few expeditions before. neither of us got to the top of Aconcagua and, in Nepal, we'd planned to climb a mountain called Island Peak. I had summited. Todd hadn't. So this was effectively Todd's third expedition. so to get to the top as a team, that was a really nice moment as well. and it's those last five, ten minutes. They're not completely devoid of risk. the summit ridge line is at times very exposed. not necessarily on both sides, but there are times where this is a no fault zone.
Joss 00:40:34 You're effectively walking on a on a path that's fairly wide. You shouldn't fall there, but you can't switch off completely. and it was cold and you're nearly 6200m. The temperature with windchill was -50. So you're. Yeah, it's you're wearing every bit of clothing you have and some. And, it's we got really, really lucky on summit day. we had a window of maybe half an hour, so we could, we could see the summit from a little way off. We we had good visibility. When we got to the summit, we were the only ones there. There was no nobody else on the summit with us. We could see down to the valley floor, and we had probably five, ten minutes on our own before another party met us on the summit. And that was brilliant. So to share that moment with Tod's, to take the photos, to know that the first half of the mission was done successfully. It's yeah, it's a great feeling. And it's it's only really one that people have experienced will be able to really comprehend.
Joss 00:41:47 You've either experienced that moment or you haven't. It's really hard to put it into words how it feels and do it justice.
Sally-Anne 00:41:56 Indeed, I can. I can imagine it that I don't know the direct experience of something at that height for sure. So you're up there at the summit. What are you seeing? Can you. Can you give us a bit of a picture of what was available to you at that time?
Multiple Speakers 00:42:09 Yes.
Joss 00:42:11 Like most summits, the of that height. There's a few prayer flags. there's a I can't actually remember the exact details. I think there's a metal spike marking the summit. I do have photos of it, but it's funny the details you do and don't remember. I remember having views down to the valley floor. Not perfect, crystal clear blue sky days, but, because there were clouds around us that were coming in and out, but being able to see down to the valley floor to. Hey. It's a relatively safe summit. It's not massive. You've maybe got five metres by 20m, but it's an area where you can walk around a little bit.
Joss 00:42:57 You can drop your bags. You can? Todd had some banners for for a company he's good friends with and a company I know as well. So he took some photos with their logos, and it's it's low key, but that's that is quite a common thing on summits like that. Yeah. It's funny. The, the views aren't the bits that are really strong in my memory. It's more the emotive feelings that are the ones that conjure up strong memories.
Sally-Anne 00:43:30 Yeah, yeah. Okay. So then you began your descent. So preparing for that because you would tell us. I mean, you mentioned it earlier. Tell us. Talk us through the preparation for the descent and what then happened.
Multiple Speakers 00:43:47 yeah.
Joss 00:43:47 There's definitely some mental preparation at this point. you. We saw a few people skiing off the top, and it's not too unusual for people to scare off the top, but, in terms of snowboarding, we saw 1 or 2 other snowboarders the whole trip where we don't know if they summited or not.
Joss 00:44:06 We don't know if they summited on snowboards. It. It's not common. If I were to estimate it would be 4 or 5 people a winter. maybe ten, but but it's not many. So that mental kind of preparation of I'm going to strap into my bindings. I'm wearing a lot more clothes than I normally words. I'm wearing thermal over boots on my snowboard boots, so it's a little bit harder to get my bindings in. The feeling slightly different to normal. The snow. I know I can get an edge on it. it's not bulletproof ice. I can snowboard this, but it's firm. It's compact. The wind's blowing a little bit. This is the point where I'm not allowed to cock up, basically.
Sally-Anne 00:44:53 It's okay.
Joss 00:44:56 So it's, My favorite times in the mountains are when the conditions are amazing. You've got deep snow. There's no avalanche risk. The terrain is good, and you can rip and just go full throttle. This was not one of those moments. It's, You're very much doing your safety turns, taking it very carefully.
Joss 00:45:18 I'm snowboarding with an ice axe in hand so that if if I do lose an edge, if I get something wrong, I can sell for rest. I'm not going to slide forever. I'm not roped up because you wouldn't normally rope up for a descent like that, so I need to be aware of it. Are there things like crevasse danger, where I'm going, which for the roots were on there wasn't. It was okay, but you're. Your senses are as heightened as they can be at that point. Yeah. I guess on full alert and taking it just very, very carefully. And the first, I don't know, probably the first 50m was actually very mellow in its gradient. it just traversing background, the ridgeline, and was, I guess, a good confidence builder. Todd didn't snowboard off the top. He had his snowboard with him, but he wanted to progress a little bit further back down the ridgeline to an area that was less exposed. so maybe the first hundred, 150m he walked.
Joss 00:46:25 I waited for him and we stayed in verbal contact with another too far apart. And when we got to a point where, I guess to use the snowboarding term, where we could properly drop in and start descending down a face rather than traversing a ridgeline. we were both on snowboards at that point, and it it went from a very minor gradient to a much steeper gradient. so challenging turns. But in a scenario where the run off is safe. So it's steep to start with, but the gradient gradually flattens out. There's no cliffs below you. There's no objective danger. and from there, I'd say that's where our, I guess, team descent started properly. And it was. It was tentative. There's no hero turns. You're not trying to prove anything to anyone. You're just trying to get down safely, basically, because it is not a place to have an accident.
Sally-Anne 00:47:20 No. And let's be clear. You are an expert snowboarder. I mean, you're a snowboard instructor, right? You know, this is not for the faint hearted.
Joss 00:47:31 It's. You get people who maybe do 1 or 2 ski holidays a year and get to a fairly competent level, they can get down black runs. I would say this is a fairly significant step above that. I've not instructed for a long time, but as you mentioned, right at the start, I, I was a level three snowboard instructor. having got my qualifications in New Zealand. I've done 20 seasons now. ten of those instructing, ten riding for myself. I spend a lot of time on terrain that's enjoyable but challenging. So it's I feel very comfortable in what my limits and capabilities are. And then, like, I don't want to sound arrogant or full of myself, but I. I'm a reasonable snowboarder. I can get to it on things that most people probably can't.
Sally-Anne 00:48:25 Yes, define reasonable. But anyway. Yes, I know what you mean. Thank you. So there you are on the descent. Was it all plain sailing from there. Did you hit any difficult moments challenges on the way down?
Joss 00:48:39 for the most part, it was absolutely fine.
Joss 00:48:43 it was quite late in the day. we were pretty much exactly three hours later than we'd hoped to be, and we will come to the reason for that shortly. but we weren't in a rush. We, as I've mentioned several times, we weren't time constrained. We'd been getting daily weather reports from back home, so we knew there wasn't a storm coming in. So, it was taking it effectively, pitch by pitch, to use a climbing term. So you get a steeper section of descent that would do together, get to the bottom, regroup, there'll be a flat section, and you'd just ride that out. There was a couple of occasions with very minor uphills where we'd have to hike up. and then we got to a section known as the Autobahn, which is a steep, exposed face that you have to traverse to get back to high camp. To get to camp 17, where it started the day. I felt comfortable riding it. the snow conditions were good, but it is an area where people have died and multiple people have died there because they've lost their footing.
Joss 00:49:54 They've slid off. And there are some fairly sizable, racks, which, so big blocks of glacier with cliffs on the other side, which if you were to fall off, would potentially be fatal. So it's, it's what we'd describe as a no fault zone. with the conditions we had, I felt comfortable riding it. Todd was less comfortable, which actually caught me slightly off guard. Todd is the more accomplished snowboarder than me. I got to what's known as level three. Level four is then your next step, which is an examiner. And Todd's is effectively a step above that in that he's a senior examiner. So he's very high up in the American system, much higher than I ever was. But I'd underestimated how much time he gets to ride for himself. So whereas I've had the last ten seasons riding for myself, Todd has been examining and working. So for me, what was familiar terrain was less familiar for Todd. So we we traversed that with our board still on. but instead of riding individually, we did actually rope up for that section, which is it's not something I've done before.
Joss 00:51:14 So again, back to the problem solving, a less normal technique. and the process, I'll try and explain it as best I can in a way that people can understand. we we roped up. We had a 35 metre rope between us. I would go first and snowboard along. once I got to the end of the rope, I would make it make a makeshift be late in the snow with my ice axes. So we had two ice axes. So I'm creating a secure anchor that I can put my weight on. That would be strong enough, hopefully, to hold the fall if Todd or myself would fall. once I'd made the anchor, Todd would snowboard towards me. I would take in the rope. So if at any point he were to fall, he would be on rope here. Be safe from there. Be an anchor to to to arrest his fall to stop him once he got to me. We would then repeat the process. I would go again. He would follow. I probably had to do this about ten times.
Joss 00:52:22 It's a long traverse. And before we got to a point where we were no longer above the racks, and Todd felt comfortable, and it took a bit of encouragement from from me and a bit of Jimmy. I'm like, do you have the skills to do this? We're we're good to go. Yeah. And then for the very last section, it the snow's okay. There's a descent, there's a bit of a flat. And then to get up to camp, there's a small ascent maybe 50m. And I stupidly, along with Todd's and later talking to everyone else who had skied at that day. I didn't want to hike up 50m. I wanted to get a bit of speed and and let the snowboard carry me up some of that way, so I didn't have to climb it. So I, I got to a point where I judged it was safe to open up the throttle a little bit, pointed the board all okay on the descent, get to the flat bit and the snow switches to bullet.
Joss 00:53:23 Hard, crusty, nasty stuff with quite big, Satsuki which are wind formations of hard snow. I try to hold on and I got it horribly wrong. I took what was probably my biggest slam of the season. Luckily I was okay, but yeah, right at the I guess peak velocity caught in edge. it went down quite hard. Had a little moment of like. Joss, you idiot, you've just said to yourself at the top, this is not a place to get it wrong. yeah. Thankfully. Fine. That I'm it's. But yeah, that was the moment where I had to have a little word with myself. And in the process of doing so, I look over and see Todd having a word to himself as well, because he's just done the same thing.
Sally-Anne 00:54:12 He's done the same thing.
Joss 00:54:14 So the same thing sounds.
Sally-Anne 00:54:16 Yeah, yeah, just sounds like a wake up call there. Just I mean, who knows?
Joss 00:54:20 It's, It's easy to make small misjudgments in the mountains, and there are times when it's perfectly okay to do so.
Joss 00:54:29 I fall almost every day. I go out on the mountain during the winter. It's okay to fall. I know some skiers will think otherwise, and I've not fallen in years. People don't fall. No, it's okay to fall like it's okay to find your limits. The reason it was not okay to fall there because of the potential consequences. it was 10:00 at night. It was cold. A rescue, if we had needed, it would have been challenging. Is it? It was a. Yeah. A time when making a misjudgment was a bit foolish.
Sally-Anne 00:55:05 Yeah. You did. You got away with it. You learned it. Yeah.
Joss 00:55:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I say it was my biggest fall of the season. Like it wasn't a huge fall, but it was, It. Yeah, I took a bit of a bang. I felt a little bit sore because of it, but. Yeah, but I don't think I was close to breaking bones or knocking myself out or anything like that, but it was, Yeah.
Joss 00:55:27 You idiot. You shouldn't have done that.
Sally-Anne 00:55:29 Yeah. Next time, I'll do the 50 meter climb.
Joss 00:55:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That is. Yeah. It's not a place to cut corners.
Sally-Anne 00:55:37 No. Well, interesting though, isn't it? How that can happen. Something to reflect on, I think, for us all. Yeah. get a bit cocky. Off we go. And, Yeah, maybe. Maybe not. So you mentioned earlier that there was a you'd come off the summit three hours later than you'd expected to, and there seemed to be a story behind that. Is that one you'd like to share with us?
Joss 00:56:01 Yeah, there's very much a story. And, it was definitely one of the, I guess, slightly defining moments, on the trip. So, Todd and I had left camp 17, which is the highest camp, so it's at 17,000ft. at, when I get my timings right. Weird. Left at nine in the morning, which is quite late for an alpine start, but again because the daylight is absolutely fine.
Joss 00:56:28 And we were the first people out of camp that day, so there were a few teams behind us, and the first stage was the autobahn. as we're crossing the Autobahn, we're clipped into, there's running protection. So it's designed that you can cross it on foot and be safe. there's lots of anchor points that you can, that you can clip into. And as we get up in the morning, we, like, we can hear a helicopter in the air and it's flying around, but we don't really think too much of it. It doesn't appear to be trying to land it again. It's that background hum. It's there. You're aware of it, but you don't don't put too much thought to it. as we're progressing across the Autobahn, we come to the end of it, and it is a snowy section all the way along. And then there's a few rocks at the end. I'm in front of Todd with the first people going up that day, and I can see two helmets just hiding behind a rock, and it's.
Sally-Anne 00:57:30 Oh.
Joss 00:57:30 I don't think I swear too much. But in my mind at this point, fuck. There shouldn't be people here that like, something's wrong. Yeah. I get to them and there's two people, a woman from Central America and a man also from Central America. And she says to me, are you the rescue team? So fuck, fuck, this isn't good. I'm not medically trained, so I've not really been involved in this situation before, but I've tried to do as much research as I can. and in talking to her, she she was in a relatively good condition, But they'd been there since seven in the morning. It's now 12:00. Said. Been there for five hours. It's cold. It's really cold. And quite quickly, she explains, they'd set off the night before. They'd gone from camp 14. So thousand metres lower down they had made the summit. They climbed through the night. But on the way down her partner had started to suffer from something called haze, which is a high altitude cerebral edema.
Joss 00:58:46 So it's severe altitude sickness and it's a swelling of the brain. You start to get fluid on the brain. It's fatal. It it's something that kills people at altitude. It's really serious how much time you have. I'm not an expert. I don't know, but there is a finite period of time you have. And basically you have to get down. Like the the way to save somebody in that Situation is to get them down and get them down as fast as possible. a few more bits of information she conveyed. He had started to hallucinate. He'd started to fall over. He couldn't walk. when I got there, he pointed over in distance. And, like, what kind of fish is that? That there are no fishes here. You, You're clearly in a bit of trouble. And then they just weren't prepared. The, they didn't have the right amount of clothing, so they were both hypothermic. And there was a point where we were pretty convinced he was going to lose some digits on his hands.
Joss 00:59:54 Like we saw his hands. They did not look good. We were a bit concerned for her fingers, because Todd and I were first on scene and again from seeing the GP. I had the right drugs to administer, so I administered something called dexamethasone, which is your kind of I guess it's your immediate first aid drug for somebody with Hace. And, And amazingly, he mentally came back quite quickly. Within 15 minutes or so, he was able to answer questions like, where are you? What are you doing? What happened? And he was mentally there, but physically that he was a mess. He couldn't stand on his own and she wasn't much better during this period. The the team behind us had caught up, they had two EMTs in the group, which is an American qualification as an emergency first responder. So quite quickly, those two took over the the first aid side of things. they also had a member in a group who was I don't wanna say he was old, but he had a senior figure authority.
Joss 01:01:06 and straight away he was on the radio trying to get hold of the park rangers. And it turns out the park rangers were well aware of the situation. There had been on radio communication with the two casualties since 7:00 in the morning. The helicopter that we had heard had been flying around all morning trying to locate the individuals so they'd. Yeah, they're called for the rescue. They're told to myself, we're now there. This other team were there and other groups did appear as well who were offering help. So between us, we had spare clothing to give them to keep them warm. We had the medical expertise. We were in radio contact with the rangers and the helicopter. But to rescue somebody from we were at 5500m is not an easy task. and it like I said, it was windy. the clouds were in and out. It was difficult to make visual contact with a helicopter, but eventually we do get visual contact with him. and very calmly, he comes over the radio. I'm going to get a long line.
Joss 01:02:20 I can't land where you are. It's too windy and I've got too much fuel on board, so we'll perform a long line rescue. I've got too much fuel for that. I'm just going to go and fly around for half an hour, to burn off fuel. So I'm a little bit lighter and clearly a very, very experienced helicopter pilot. Not his first time doing it, but for everyone else, like, wow, this is kind of it's amazing, but it's also extraordinary and pretty scary at the same time. Yes. And eventually he comes back and he's got, let's say, a 100 meter cable dangling below him with a small metal cage big enough for one person. And if I were to estimate, I'd say the winds were probably blowing at 40 miles an hour, where he was a little bit lower where we were on the ground level, but he was hovering above us and in in terms of movement, he's completely stationary, but he's effectively flying forward at 40 miles an hour. And you can see the rotor was flying off the back of a helicopter.
Joss 01:03:24 It was amazing to see. And he very gradually, probably half a mile an hour just brings in this cage, casually places it down next to us and and we've received instructions to the Rangers of what to do at this point. And it took six of us to carry the gentleman the casualty and lift him into the cage. We. He's. Everybody's wearing harnesses. so he clip his harness into the cage so he's safe. We give the signal to the helicopter pilot to lift him up and takes him down to camp 14, where there is a ranger station, and they can administer proper treatment. There's a moment of quiet and tranquility as we're waiting for him to come back for the second casualty, which is maybe 5 or 10 minutes. He comes back. She's more physically able, but it still takes a couple of us to help her get into the cage. We put their bags in the cage, give the signal. She's gone. And then there's suddenly this moment of. We're. We're alone again.
Joss 01:04:30 We've just been involved. This took three hours from start to finish. what do we do? and there's Todd, and I had the conversation. What do we do? The other main group with the EMTs and the senior figure that you could hear them having the same conversation. And for me, I still felt like going for the summit was okay. We had lost time, but we hadn't really spent any energy. time wasn't a major factor for the day. So I was happy to go on. Todd was a little bit. Oh, I'm not sure. Maybe we should go down. And if he'd insist on going down, I. I would have been fine with that. But, I wanted to make it very clear to him. If we go down, I want to have another attempt at the summit. Yes. and that would have entailed probably a week, because we didn't have enough food with us at camp 17. We'd have to go back down to 14, where we'd left a lot of our equipment and then wait for the next weather window.
Joss 01:05:37 And we knew there was a storm coming in and it would hit us. So we might not have got another window, but it definitely meant another week on the mountain, neither of which neither of us really wanted to do. Like, it's pretty uncomfortable up there. So between us, it was like, yeah, let's go. Like let's try. There's no real reason why it shouldn't work today. And the other teams that had been leading the rescue or helping the rescue. Thankfully, everyone came to the same conclusion. not everyone got there at the same time. There was a few people like, yeah, I think I want to go down. I'm happy there's high point. But eventually everyone said, let's go up. And I'm really, really pleased that everybody that day summited. So everyone had been willing to stop and help, and some people were just sitting and waiting on it. If I can do something, say, I don't want to go until, you know, it's okay. Yeah.
Joss 01:06:33 And it didn't. Nobody had to sacrifice a summit attempt and everyone did successfully summit. So that were that was really pleasing. And it's also you're in an environment where you have to look after your own, going to rescue somebody that like there's no discussion there, there's no decision. You're doing it like that. Like if you don't, people die. Yeah. So you have to be not just willing but capable and able to help people. But the fact that it didn't cost anyone anything. it. It had a positive outcome which which was really good. And we we later found out that both of them got to hospital safely. They both kept all their toes and fingers, which is a real win. So, I'm sure there's still some recovery involved, but there was no major, like lifelong injuries. So it it was a that was probably the scariest moment to the trip in terms of what could have happened, but it had a positive outcome. So it was a yeah, that one was an experience.
Joss 01:07:38 definitely gained a story out of that one.
Sally-Anne 01:07:41 Definitely gained a story within a story within a story. Right. So many.
Joss 01:07:46 Yeah.
Sally-Anne 01:07:47 Yeah, I guess I'm guessing his cerebral edema thing passed. It didn't cause any lasting damage as well. The other important, significant thing, I guess.
Joss 01:07:57 I, to my knowledge, know that I know. I know it is something that if you can get down quickly, it just normally clear quite quickly. And, Yeah. On our way back down during our descent, Todd and I checked in with the park rangers just to ask how they were if they had an update. and we also checked in in Talkeetna when we got off the mountain, because you have to sign out of the mountain. we checked in again with the park rangers there, and they said, yeah, they did it. They're safe basically.
Sally-Anne 01:08:27 Yeah. Amazing. And so you've got you had this amazing experience of, as you said, no question. Of course you're going to stop despite your huge desire to reach the summit.
Sally-Anne 01:08:41 Of course you're going to risk that to save a life, no question. And yet you've still got to make it to the summit. You all did. You took a slight risk, maybe more than slight. You took the risk, you went up, you judged it. It meant that then when you were coming down, it was quite late in the night. That may or may not have been a factor. You can't know. but, you know, all these things are playing out all of the time, and you're assessing, assessing, assessing on the move, aren't you on the go in the moment you're kind of doing audit upon audit upon audit, continually refreshing and making sure that you're staying super present with all of that. So that's my kind of reflection on, you know, that whole experience in that moment and quite remarkable. Just and you made it to the summit, you prepared for the descent. You learned a couple of lessons on the way down. You made it to the bar.
Sally-Anne 01:09:35 Is there anything else about this incredible experience that you feel it might be helpful for us to hear?
Joss 01:09:46 there's one other key event that happened on the mountain, which I feel like I can't brush over. it's probably not the bit I want to finish on, but, We say mountains are dangerous. The. We were involved in a rescue that thankfully had no casualties. But, prior to going on the mountain, we had been made aware that a skier had had a fatal fall. and at the time when we passed the location where they had had the fatal fall, very much brings it home that this is a dangerous mountain. and then, I'm not sure which day it was. Maybe day 5 or 6. As we were getting to camp 14, which is the main base camp area, it's where most people spend most of their time on the mountain. So there's a lot of people there. There's a lot of tents. it's this amazing amphitheater with these huge 2000 meter faces around you. and as we're getting there, it's a bluebird day.
Joss 01:10:54 There'd been a lot of snow the day before with some wind. But like, there's a there's an energy in the mountains when you have data like that. People are excited for the conditions, which sadly can cloud judgment. And just as we were pulling into camp 14, we didn't see the avalanche happen itself. But there there was an avalanche in an area known as Rescue Gully. We could see one victim caught on top of the avalanche in the debris, but clearly really distressed. the lower body, like their feet and snowboards, were stuck in the snow, basically. Oof! And by chance, there were two of the park rangers out on a ski tour that day who were just below the avalanche, and you could see them quick, marching as much as you can at before 4000 4000 odd meters to get there. and sadly, when they got there, it was straight into, Well, there's somebody buried. We need to find them. So there are two victims in the avalanche, and everybody could see this unfolding.
Joss 01:12:10 And you can see them digging somebody out. and they administered CPR. And sadly, the person that, like, there was a fatality, they died. And afterwards they they recover the body. They put it on a sledge and take it back to the ranger's hut. And the route they took was five meters away from Todd, and I was set up. So it it made it feel very real. Like that was definitely the most challenging point of the whole trip because it you go into these things with an open mind, you know, they're dangerous. You know there are consequences. You don't like. Nobody wants to see that. Nobody wants to experience it. So that, That, like, mentally, that was a tough moment. yes. And it's just not fun for anyone. And it. I think partly the location where everybody can see it. So like, you're talking to other people and like, what do we do? Do we go up and help? And it's like, it's there.
Joss 01:13:14 It's right there. But it'll take us an hour to get there. And we've just done a four day. I'm like, I, I'm of no help. I'm just adding to the situation. If I go up and then there's other people optimistic like, oh, they've got time. Like like he's only been buried five minutes. He'll be all right. And you're like, you're not really sure what to think, what to do. And, it's. Yeah, it's just a really unfortunate reality of of the mountains. They are dangerous. So for, for me, that was the low point of the trip and I didn't appreciate at the time. For Todd, it was very much the low point of the trip. Like, he mentally really struggled with that moment. And I guess where we are quite a long debrief at the end of the trip, like, what are the things we learnt or the things we did? Well, and there were lots of kind of like small details, like take a spare stove or take this breathing mask that makes it, like easier to breathe in cold temperatures.
Joss 01:14:15 but a big lesson learnt was while it I was able to fairly quickly cut like carpenter. What's the word I'm looking for? Carpenter. Mental wise. I might need some help here.
Sally-Anne 01:14:30 Yeah yeah yeah.
Joss 01:14:31 Yeah. That's right I in the box. I was able to put it in a box fairly easily and, and pull it to a side, like not to dismiss it, not to forget it, but to put it to one side. Todd wasn't able to do that And he was very much stuck in his own thoughts until we sat down and talked about it later on the day and like, how do we both feel about it? What do we want to do? What's our what's our plan? Do we like me? Personally, I never had any like any thoughts of killing the expedition there and going home. I can't speak for Todd, but I know he struggled, like just being in the environment he was in, having seen what we'd seen. But as soon as we heard, I guess moved past it and agreed a plan for what's our summit strategy? When do we go? what day, what do we take? As soon as we had a plan, he was also able to put it in a box and move past it.
Joss 01:15:28 So. And the lesson learnt. I guess the lesson learnt for me was just because I'm okay with something, or just because I'm dealing with something in a certain way doesn't mean the people around me are dealing with it in the same way. They could be much better than me. They could be. They could be worse. And the best thing to do is talk about it. Yes. Yeah. Well, if you've got that little box that you can put things in or not, talk about it. help me like. So that was. Yeah, that was a good lesson learnt really. And there in terms of why the avalanche happened like that. That's a completely different debrief and a much bigger one. There were there were definitely mistakes made. And it's I can understand those mistakes because when you get into that situation where there's a high energy environment in the mountains, people, there's good snow, there's steep lines, people want to get after it. It's one of the reasons you're there. Yeah.
Joss 01:16:25 So it it's it's an understandable mistake.
Sally-Anne 01:16:29 Indeed. It's the balance. We've used that word a couple of times now between the risk and the gain, I guess, and keeping the risks in mind without them destroying the joy of the moment. Is a real skill in any situation. And as you say, you know, recognizing that everyone deals with things differently. We all relate to experiences differently. We all have our own truth in that sense. Right? What you were able to do with your old friend is talk it out and listen. Not just talk it out, but you were listening, right? And you gave him. Or together. You worked out what he needed to be able to move forward without that, difficulty, you know, holding him. Holding him back. Such. I mean, the mountain. Let's just warden it out here a bit, you know, here we are, both living in the mountains, in the same valley. And whether you're climbing something over 6000m or whether you're just going for a walk for an hour or so in any given day, you know, the lessons that they can teach us in so many different ways, at so many different levels.
Sally-Anne 01:17:40 If we look and listen. Right. So thank you so much, Joss, for sharing this extraordinary experience. And let's remember it is. It's extraordinary. And so when you think of all of this and everything that you've called to mind today, brought back into your mind for this conversation. When you think about the other things on your list that are still waiting to be done. What does Fearless Forward mean to you?
Joss 01:18:16 So in the preparatory notes for this podcast, you kindly gave me the heads up that you would be asking me this question, and I'm really pleased you did, because it my initial response with my engineering kind of logical background. What does Fearless Forward mean? Well, it's a podcast hosted by Sailor and Aries. Like that's what Fearless Word means to me. But it's I've had some time to, I guess, consider it and it. I understand the concept saying, I've listened to your other podcasts and you've got some great guests who explain their viewpoint on it really well. For me, fearless, forward, it's it's a concept that you have to apply really carefully in the mountains.
Joss 01:19:04 There are there are times when it's okay to be fearless. When you're your skill set, your knowledge of the environment, you know that you're in a safe place with low consequences, so you can be fearless and you can move forward. But for me, it's a knowing when that's okay to just blindly go forward fearlessly. It's you won't last in the mountains very long if you use that strategy all the time. So it's I guess for me, fearless forward is when it's appropriate. Go for it. Like when you know you can be fearless, but it's something that you can't apply all the time and that's okay. It is okay to have fear. Fear is normally there for a reason. It's normally trying to tell you something. so when it's okay to be fearless and you're comfortable going forward, great. But if you have a bit of fear, it doesn't mean you can't go forward. It just means you need to assess the situation on a. Am I ready for this? Am I prepared? Have I done my homework? Is the situation safe? Do I have the skill set to.
Joss 01:20:13 Does the team have the skill set? So it's, It was a new concept on me, but it's one which, like, it's absolutely there. It exists, but it knowing when to be fearless, I guess is the message I'm trying to get across.
Sally-Anne 01:20:32 just thank you very much.
Joss 01:20:34 Yeah. No problem. Thank you for having me.