Sweet dreams are made of reefs - with Lorena Jevnikar

On the show today is Lorena Jevnikar, a masters student focused on conservation paleobiology through studying coral diversity in the Caribbean. Hear about the Beverly (a drink you need to experience for yourself), how coral populations are declining and why we need to conserve them, coral bleaching and its relationship to algae, the state stone of Michigan and how it inspired Lorena's journey, and what life is like as a masters student.

What is Earth on the Rocks?

Welcome to Earth on the Rocks, a show where we get to know the person behind the science over drinks. Each episode will highlight a new scientist in the earth and atmospheric sciences to learn more about their journey, what interests them, and who they are outside of their science.

Host: Shelby Rader
Producer: Cari Metz
Artwork: Connor Leimgruber
Board Operator: Kate Crum, Betsy Leija
Funding for this podcast was provided by the National Science Foundation grant EAR-2422824.

Shelby: 00:06

Hi, folks, and welcome back to Earth on the Rocks, the show where we get to know the person behind the science. I'm your host, Shelby Rader, and joining us today is Lorena Jevnikar Lorena, thanks for joining.

Lorena: 00:16

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited today.

Shelby: 00:18

So Lorena, as we get to know you, what would be a drink of choice or of non choice that you would like to have or never have again?

Lorena: 00:26

So I am somebody that usually drinks water. I don't really drink tea or coffee or anything like that, but I came prepared with my drink of non choice today. And it's this one drink that I tried several years ago. I was on vacation with my mom and we were in hi, mom. I know she's gonna be listening.

Lorena: 00:44

We were in Atlanta, Georgia, and we went to the Coca Cola factory. And so we were able to get a tour. And at the end of the tour, they said, you know what you guys should try? A drink called the Beverly. I tried it and my mom just so happened to take my photo when I took that first sip and oh my gosh, it was so bitter and it's a discontinued drink in stores as of like the early two thousands, but it was just bitter.

Lorena: 01:10

It didn't have a taste, so I don't think I would ever try that again. They have a challenge called the Beverly Challenge, so you can try and drink it and see if you like it.

Shelby: 01:18

Do you know was this produced by Coca Cola and that's why they had it?

Lorena: 01:21

This was. Yeah. They had it for a few decades and it's originally an Italian soda. I just remember I'm not drinking that again.

Shelby: 01:29

Now I want to try to find it just to experience it.

Lorena: 01:33

Yeah. I was doing some research and it said that it's only at Coca Cola facilities. It's at the factory. I think it's also at Disney World and maybe a couple other locations, but you're not going to find it in a store. Maybe they discontinued it for the reason that it just wasn't that good.

Shelby: 01:47

Yeah. So sounds like you won't find it for a good reason.

Lorena: 01:49

Yeah.

Shelby: 01:50

So Lorena, if someone were to ask you know, what do you do or what sort of scientist you are, how would you answer that?

Lorena: 01:57

So I would label myself as a conservation paleobiologist. And that sounds like a mouthful because it is. And so essentially what that means is I study the past and I study the present in order to predict the future in very layman's terms. And so for the context of my research, I study coral diversity in The Caribbean in a very particular ecoregion

Shelby: 02:21

of

Lorena: 02:21

The Caribbean known as the Greater Antilles. And I study coral diversity changes and coral richness and how that's changed over the last five point three million years. And I also study diversity today. And so the goal is to use that information to help us improve conservation efforts so that coral reefs have a future on this planet because they've, especially in The Caribbean, have been in this sort of terminal decline over the last several decades. So I think my work is very important to help coral reefs have a future.

Shelby: 02:54

This sounds fascinating. So we're gonna get into all sorts of details But about can you talk a little bit about why coral reefs are important? I know that, you know, people that are listening probably know that they're really beautiful

Lorena: 03:04

Mhmm.

Shelby: 03:04

And maybe provide habitat to some wildlife. But there's lots of other reasons why they would be worth understanding how this diversity has changed and how we may be able to help conserve that moving forward.

Lorena: 03:16

Yeah. So coral reefs are very, very important, not only to the surrounding biodiversity in the ocean like fish and sharks and sea stars. They are also important for us because they provide shoreline protection for storms. They also have a lot of medicinal properties. They have been used in the medical field for cancer therapies.

Lorena: 03:40

And they also provide the foundation for our seafood industry. And so if you're a seafood eater, you have coral reefs to thank for that.

Shelby: 03:48

Thank for that. So in terms of the medicinal uses, like properties or things derived from these corals are used? Doctor.

Lorena: 03:55

Yeah. I think there are chemical compounds that can be extracted and then used in these cancer therapies. I don't know much of the medical side of it, but I do know that they are heavily used. That's amazing. And they're still discovering these today.

Lorena: 04:09

And so that's why it's important to keep them because we don't know what else they could help us with in the future.

Shelby: 04:14

Right. And so you sort of mentioned too that this area in particular has seen this decline in coral reef diversity. How much has it declined? You know, how I guess, how pressing of a concern is this? Are we at a point where we're close to going, you know, too far where we can't return?

Shelby: 04:31

Or is there still opportunity to sort of rebound from some of these changes?

Lorena: 04:35

Yeah. So there's been a lot of estimates and statistics on how many coral reefs have died since, you know, the early seventies and eighties, well over 50% of our reefs on the planet and even more so in The Caribbean. And so it's really important how we think about restoring and conserving their populations. There's lots of conservation efforts where they take more heat resistant or more tolerable corals, and they can fragment them and grow them and then transfer them back to a coral reef. The problem with that is is there are projections of even hotter temperatures, you know, in the next several decades.

Lorena: 05:15

We wanna make sure that we are conserving corals that are going be able to withstand that. And there's a recent paper that just came out last month where we're beginning the conversation of transferring corals from the Indo Pacific to the Caribbean Because a lot of the native species in The Caribbean that have very important ecological roles, they're no longer able to fill those roles. And so we need similar species that can replace that. And there is a lot of success and a lot of resilient coral reefs in the Indo Pacific. So we're just beginning to have that conversation.

Shelby: 05:50

Is a warming ocean one of the biggest threats to corals? Or what are some other things that are impacting this 50% decline?

Lorena: 05:58

Yeah. So the top two biggest factors are increases in ocean acidification and increases in ocean temperature. And so there's various things that that can do to corals. Corals have a symbiotic relationship with algae that live within their tissues.

Shelby: 06:17

Because corals are living things.

Lorena: 06:19

They are. They are living animals. Yeah. As much as you may think, they're not living. They're very much animals.

Lorena: 06:25

And so they have this relationship with this algae that lives in their soft tissue. And that algae is very, very crucial for 90% of their food. And so when temperatures get too hot in the water, those algae don't like that hot temperature. And so then they will pel themselves from the corals and try and find another place that's more suitable. And so what this does is this leaves 90% of the food gone for the corals.

Lorena: 06:51

And so it can leave them to starve. It can make them more susceptible to diseases and ultimately death. There are a lot of positive recovery stories of reefs recovering after big bleaching events, but we're getting to a point where the duration of these bleaching events are so long that they're not able recover. And the second thing that I mentioned, the ocean acidification, there's a chemical reaction that happens with acidic water and coral reef skeleton that the coral animal secretes. You can kind of think of it as taking Tums if you have an upset stomach and so you have that stomach acid and you take those Tums as a basic substance to kind of neutralize.

Lorena: 07:32

Well, what's happening in our oceans is that the oceans are very acidic and so that's actually dissolving coral skeletons and there's a lot of research on that too. So those are definitely the biggest factors. Other factors are overfishing and disease and with overfishing, coral reefs also have relationships with these reef fishes to keep the balance of the ecosystem. And so if there's not a lot of fish, there can be other algae that can actually smother corals, and especially with pollution too, can diseases. So there's lots of different factors.

Lorena: 08:04

So coral reefs have a very optimal environmental conditions that that they prefer.

Shelby: 08:08

And you mentioned this phenomenon of coral bleaching, which I think people may have heard about in the news before. Can you tell us what that actually is? What does it mean if if you have coral bleaching happening?

Lorena: 08:19

Yeah. So coral bleaching is a process where you have very hot temperatures. They can typically happen during El Ninos where there are hotter temperatures, but this can just this can happen during the summertime. And and this is where the temperatures rise so quickly into a temperature where that algae, what actually gives the corals their color that lives within the tissue, expel themselves from that algae and so what's revealed is their white coral skeleton and so that's why we call it coral bleaching. And so there are times where the corals can recover where the algae then come back temperatures lower.

Lorena: 08:54

But oftentimes, their duration of these bleaching events last so long that you're just left with white bear corals. And so then that also has repercussions on the reef fishes and other life that's surrounding. So it's a process that can really be devastating to the ecosystem.

Shelby: 09:10

You know, had thought about coral bleaching very abstractly, I guess, but didn't really think about the idea that this color is coming from the algae. Once that's gone, sometimes it can't be recovered. And so you also mentioned this idea that now there's this process where some species of coral are being brought into areas that, like you mentioned, the Indo Pacific coming into the Caribbean. Beginning to think about. Beginning to think about.

Shelby: 09:34

Yeah. So is there some of these species that no longer can tolerate these areas that they're living that eventually we lose them all together? Is there a risk with that happening with these bigger repercussions? Even if we can sort of repopulate areas with different types of corals, what does that look like big picture?

Lorena: 09:54

Yeah. So specifically in The Caribbean, there are two species that are critically endangered, the elk horn and staghorn coral. And these are very fast growing in the context of a few inches of a year. Okay. Which doesn't seem like a lot, but there are also kind of, mounding brain corals that can grow a lot slower.

Lorena: 10:14

So these corals that are branching can grow quickly and, they can provide different nooks and crannies for different fish. And so they are really foundational to to the reefs. And so the idea is is that if we take Indo Pacific corals that are also branching and maybe share the same genus, there's only two species in The Caribbean that share the genus Acropora, but there's hundreds in the Indo Pacific. So the idea is that if we can think about these other Acroporid corals that can maybe replace the ecological niche of these Acroporid corals that are native to the Caribbean, then maybe we can actually rebuild the ecosystem. But with something like that, it's hard to apply right now because we don't know if those corals in the Indo Pacific are going to grow out of control.

Lorena: 11:07

We don't know how it's going to interact with the native wildlife in The Caribbean. So there's a lot of uncertainty. And so in this paper that came out last month, it discussed kind of doing these trials of of growing these corals in the Indo Pacific with maybe some native corals in a lab and seeing how they interact, and then transferring them to a reef in The Caribbean just for them to grow, but then taking them out before spawning season occurs. And then after that, if we have enough data to safely say, you know what? This is our best bet.

Lorena: 11:40

Then that can be something that takes place where we just then leave them there.

Shelby: 11:44

Right. So so basically a stepwise progression to make sure that things are are controlled in a way that they don't spiral.

Lorena: 11:51

Mhmm. And something with this that they mentioned in the paper was this may be a several year process. And so for the reefs that are still declining now, what will it look like in a few years? So it's difficult to make that decision whether we rush to save them now, or we need to really methodically think about what this could mean and what the effects could be.

Shelby: 12:09

This is also fascinating. Thank you. So you talked about how you're sort of looking at the diversity of modern corals compared to corals over the last few million years. And so I want to talk about sort of how you determine that. And maybe we start with modern coral because that might be a little more approachable for people who maybe haven't thought about corals very regularly.

Shelby: 12:32

So in sort of determining what species we have now in this area that you're studying, what does that look like?

Lorena: 12:39

Yeah. So the particular corals that I'm interested are the reef builders that are responsible for building those coral reefs that if you imagine in your head a coral reef with sharks swimming around, topography in these shallow waters, those are the corals that I am interested in. And so what I have done is I have tried to gather as many papers as possible, all of the papers that have been published, different reports, different databases, and have accumulated them to create my own database of all the work that has been done over the last five point three million years in the Greater Antilles ecoregion that has data on coral diversity, species that were observed maybe back in the Pleistocene, back in the Pliocene epoch, and then modern coral reports today. And so I put all of that in a coral database. And so I've been running analyses on is there a statistical difference in the diversity four million years ago to now, five million years ago to now throughout this entire time span.

Lorena: 13:42

And so I'm finishing up those analyses and writing up my results and will hopefully be published in the journal Coral Reefs for everybody to find out.

Shelby: 13:51

Yeah. And I should have mentioned this earlier on the show. You're a current grad student in the department.

Lorena: 13:56

I am. And so you're sort of at

Shelby: 13:57

the tail end of your master's thesis here.

Lorena: 13:59

Yeah. So I'm a second year master's student here. I think I'm the first master's student on this podcast. Yep. So I hope I can represent them well.

Lorena: 14:07

But, yeah, these last two years have flown by. But I feel like it's taught me so much about research and that process of asking questions and coming up with a hypothesis. You have your experimental setup and what it looks like to calculate your results and find your results and, you know, analyze your results and make figures and everything. I've been really eye opening about what other researchers do and learning that process firsthand.

Shelby: 14:33

And the sort of analyses that you're doing sound really interesting. And so from this database that you're building or that you have built, I'm assuming that some of these modern reports are from people, like, actively going out and and surveying in person these reefs, I'm assuming through scuba diving or snorkeling

Lorena: 14:52

Yes.

Shelby: 14:52

And and, like, making note of of, like, what species are present and what percentage of an area they cover, those sorts of things. Is that an accurate idea of how

Lorena: 15:01

Yeah. You're exactly right. And I actually got to participate in that for my field work. How fun. Yeah.

Lorena: 15:07

So last summer, I traveled to The Dominican Republic, more of like the Eastern side near Punta Cana and Bayi Bay. And I was able to dive at a few different reefs and took a GoPro and took lots of photos and got to record the species diversity and got to see these beautiful reefs. You know, there is some degradation and, you know, you may see bleaching, a couple of the spots that I went to, I went with a couple other individuals who work at a conservation facility. And they thought, wow, this reef is actually doing pretty well, all things considered. So it was very exciting.

Lorena: 15:43

And it was just amazing to be able to dive again.

Shelby: 15:46

So it sounds like you were a scuba diver prior to this project.

Lorena: 15:51

Yes. And we can get into scuba because I love it. But at my undergrad, I earned my open water scuba certification. And this is kind of the entry level to scuba. And so you learn all about the tanks and how pressure changes with depth, and how you have to keep track of your air consumption, you learn about all this gear, and you have this gear on.

Lorena: 16:13

You have to take a swim test at the beginning to make sure you have these abilities to learn being in the water very differently. And so I earned that in my undergrad a couple years ago, and I thought I would love to apply that to field work and somehow do geology and paleontology and marine biology. And so that's why I'm here.

Shelby: 16:29

And then you came to the middle of Indiana to

Lorena: 16:31

go Yeah. Up in says, I didn't know there were oceans in Indiana. Well, we travel for that. But this past spring, I took an advanced scuba class Here, we have a very impressive academic diving department in the Center for Underwater Science. Shout out to all of them.

Lorena: 16:46

And so that really helped to refresh my memory of all my open water skills and to get me more comfortable diving a little bit deeper in the Dominican Republic. And so it was a great course, great people over there. And so that just gave me all the confidence to be able to go back down and dive.

Shelby: 17:04

When you're diving in these reef areas, how difficult is it while you're diving to then also be keeping track of coral diversity and making notes? How does that work when you're underwater?

Lorena: 17:16

Yeah. So my method I was with a couple other divers, and so we really on our GoPros to take photos. We also have these little, like, underwater boards where we can write down, you know, names if we can. There's a lot of stuff happening in the water, so you have to keep track of your gear. I also was taking water samples, so I had that in my BC, which is called a buoyancy compensator.

Lorena: 17:39

So it's kind of like the life vest that you have on.

Shelby: 17:42

So And were the water samples for water quality testing later? Okay.

Lorena: 17:46

Yeah. So testing for temperature, recording the depth, salinity, things like that. And so when you're in the water, you have this pressure gauge that shows you how much pressure you have in your tank. And you can consume a lot of air in a short amount of time, especially if you're not regulating your breath work. And that was something that I had to work on.

Lorena: 18:07

So typically, our dives lasted maybe forty five minutes to an hour. And so you will consume most of your air, but you're always supposed to be left with 500 psi.

Shelby: 18:19

Yeah. How deep are you going when you're diving in the area that you were doing this sort of field work in?

Lorena: 18:25

So most of the corals that I am interested in and most of the depth of the reefs until you get to, like, the bottom of the reef was around maybe 35, 40 feet. And so with that, you're not really consuming air too fast as if you were at a depth of, say, 90 or a 100 feet. I did end up completing my deep dive for my advanced scuba certification, which is where I went to 68 feet. And you had to get below 60 feet to get your certification. We ended up seeing some cool deep sea corals.

Lorena: 18:58

So, yeah, so it's around 35, 40 feet ish. Some of them were even shallower, maybe around like eighteen, eighteen feet. So it's kind of the depth that I was working with.

Shelby: 19:08

And can you talk I've never gone scuba diving. And so can you talk a little bit about like what what it feels like on your body as you go to maybe 18 or 20 feet versus when you did your deep dive to almost 70 feet?

Lorena: 19:20

Yeah. So it feels like you're floating. You are weightless. Calming to me. However, one thing you have to keep in mind is the pressure because the lower you go in the water, the more pressure there's built up on your body.

Lorena: 19:34

And so what's really important is equalizing your ears. And so there's air spaces that's in your ears and you have to equalize them, which means like wiggling your jaw or like popping your ears. And you have to do that very often as you even descend a few feet. If you're ever in a pool that's like 10 feet deep, when you get to the bottom, you can feel it. So you have to keep equalizing, and then you still feel weightless, that's how you kind of adjust to that that pressure.

Lorena: 20:00

And then as you get closer back up to the surface, you have to make sure you're not, rising to the surface too quickly. So you have to adjust the air that's in your BC to make sure that, one, you don't, you know, pop an eardrum. And also, if you're deep enough in the water, you have to keep in mind the bends. And so this is where you have too much pressure or, nitrogen also in your your blood that can cause some imbalances. And so you wanna make sure you're off gassing that nitrogen through exhaling.

Lorena: 20:31

So there's a lot of things to to keep in mind, so that's why it's very important to have these glasses under your belt, so you can be as safe as possible.

Shelby: 20:38

Yeah. It's amazing what the human body can do.

Lorena: 20:41

It really is.

Shelby: 20:41

And being able to to dive for your work would just be such an amazing experience.

Lorena: 20:47

Mhmm. Yeah. It was it was just amazing. We went to a few different shipwrecks. And so I like I mentioned earlier, the Center for Underwater Science, I work heavily with them to go on this trip.

Lorena: 21:01

They actually run, a trip to the Caribbean, especially The Dominican Republic every year. And there are what we call living museums of the sea. And Professor Charles Beaker has been, a very integral part in that establishing these shipwrecks that they find along the shorelines and preserving them, as well as preserving the biology in the corals. So not only are they trying to find artifacts and understand the history of these shipwrecks, but they're also trying to preserve the integrity of the reefs surrounding them. So I was able to visit these shipwrecks and I was very interested in the biology and the corals, of course.

Lorena: 21:36

But we also got to see anchors and cannons that have just been taken over by these corals. So it was really amazing.

Shelby: 21:42

Yeah. That sounds incredible. And I'm sure you have beautiful pictures from that trip, too.

Lorena: 21:46

I do. Yeah. There's actually this one site that we visited where there was this wall drop off that goes down to 600 feet. And I said, I need my picture over the edge. I was only maybe at thirty, forty feet under the water.

Lorena: 21:59

But after you get to this wall drop off, it's just blue. And you just can't see anything. And there's a pretty cool picture of me over that edge. So I'll definitely have that forever.

Shelby: 22:09

Yeah. I would love to see that after we finish the recording.

Lorena: 22:11

Of course. Yeah. Happy to show it.

Shelby: 22:13

And so I think you did a really nice job of sort of walking us through how you evaluate, you know, corals and diversity of corals in the modern environment where you can go out and observe these things. How do you know what corals were present and sort of their proportions if you think even a few thousand years ago, much less, you know, three or 4,000,000 years ago? How how does somebody figure that out?

Lorena: 22:35

Yeah. So a lot of the data and the reports and papers that I have taken from is observations of fossilized reefs. And these reefs, over time, through a tectonic plate movement have been uplifted and exposed in, The Caribbean and the Greater Antilles where I work. And so there's been a lot of work throughout the last few million years and even deeper into the fossil record of what types of corals can be found at these different exposures. And of course, there's preservation biases and observation biases and collection biases and all that.

Lorena: 23:07

So I'm just taking what I can find and say, here is what my data and here's how we can learn from it, and here's how we can help improve coral reefs.

Shelby: 23:16

Yeah. Think it's pretty amazing that we can, you know, have these materials that when they're actively forming, they're in an open ocean, sort of shallow marine setting that then are preserved in the rock record. So we do have these fossilized corals that, like you said, through tectonics are at some point brought back to the surface. They're no longer underwater, they're exposed. And we can see back in geologic time, oh this was obviously a coral reef, you know, whatever a 100,000 years ago, 3,000,000 years ago because we can date this rock and then we also see evidence through coral skeletons of what was here before.

Shelby: 23:55

That's really incredible that we can do that.

Lorena: 23:58

Yeah, very well said too. One great thing about corals is that, especially the corals that we see today, they have this white skeleton that you see when they bleach. And so, you know, having a hard skeleton preserves very, very well rather than something like a worm, which is not only on land, but it's soft bodied, and it can just decompose in the dirt. So we do have a really great record of coral reefs fossilizing.

Shelby: 24:21

And so how did you get into this field? You mentioned you got your initial scuba certification in your undergrad. So where were you for your undergrad? And what got you interested in scuba? Then how did it evolve to where you are now?

Lorena: 24:37

Yeah, I actually started in middle school. First off, I'll say that I've always been interested in the natural sciences. And I grew up in Cleveland, like fifteen minutes away from Lake Erie. And so family would take me there, and I would just collect rocks and look for fossils and collect beach glass and I was also very close to to a park where where my home is and so I was exposed to at a young age, you know, looking at rocks and just thinking it's so fun discovering. And so when it was between my seventh and eighth grade year during the summer, my mom and I, we took a trip to a place called St.

Lorena: 25:16

Joseph, Michigan. And I don't know if you know anything about Michigan, but their state stone is called the Petoskey Stone. And this is actually a fossilized coral. Didn't know that. I didn't know that either when I was there.

Lorena: 25:30

But last night that my mom and I stayed there, we went into this souvenir shop. And I kept seeing these weird stones being for sale and I had no idea what they were and I almost didn't ask. But I'm so thankful that I did, because the woman at the register said, Oh, that's a Petoskey stone. It's actually fossilized coral. And I thought that was so fascinating, the pattern that it has.

Lorena: 25:52

And from there, I bought a few of these corals and I started buying geology books and getting into paleontology. And by the time I was in tenth grade, I thought, man, paleontology might be for me. And so I began volunteering at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History in their paleontology department. I was able to clean and prepare dinosaur bones, let alone just look at them in a lab. And so from there I knew in high school I would love to pursue paleontology or geology.

Lorena: 26:24

And so for my undergrad, I went to Ohio University in Athens, and that's where I majored in geology. There was a path that you could take in the major to have more biology classes. And so on top of my interest in marine biology, I thought, could I add a biology minor with this? And so that's what I did. And a couple of the classes that I took was marine biology, marine invertebrate biology, and I even took a class where I studied abroad in The Bahamas during spring break, with several of my classmates.

Lorena: 26:58

And so we didn't go diving then, but we went snorkeling. And one student that I went with, he was scuba certified. And after that trip, was like, I would love to get scuba certified. And I'm like, the ocean is where I belong. I remember on that trip, the first reef that we went to, there was a southern stingray that swam about four feet under me.

Lorena: 27:20

And you would think that you'd be so freaked out and scared, but as long as you don't bother them, they won't bother you. And I just thought, wow, that's the closest I've ever gotten to something in the ocean, and that is so amazing. So from there, knew I wanted to get SCUBA certified. And so all of the opportunities that I had in my undergrad just kind of culminated to coral reefs. And coral is what started my passion for geology.

Lorena: 27:43

And so I thought this is what I want to do and make a difference and do research in grad school. So that's why I'm here.

Shelby: 27:49

That's amazing. So you might know the answer or be able to answer this question. So where you went to undergrad, it sounds like, had a SCUBA program. And IU has a SCUBA program. Is that a common thing?

Shelby: 28:00

Or were you just sort of lucky that you've ended up in two places landlocked that have these scuba programs?

Lorena: 28:06

Yeah, so least with my alma mater, they did have this open water scuba class and it was a rec class. And I think they did offer an advanced class but it wasn't when I was there. So as far as a program or a department like IU has, that's not what quite my my undergrad had. But still that opportunity to take and complete my certification there and be in the water every single week because you can get your certification in a day if you're on vacation. So I was very grateful that I could spend weeks in the pool and practice with all of these skills.

Lorena: 28:39

And so at Indiana University here, I was very surprised to also find out they had a diving program and they have underwater archaeology and photography. So if you're interested in diving at all, definitely look into the programs here. So I was very fortunate that I could kind of take all these classes and really help kind of propel my research possible.

Shelby: 29:01

Yeah. And so you mentioned a little earlier on the show that you're the first master's student who's come on the podcast. I am. So for folks that are listening that maybe are unfamiliar with, what is a master's program? Can you tell us a little bit about what your experience has been like with that?

Shelby: 29:16

What's it look like and what have been some aspects that maybe have been surprising or that you didn't expect before?

Lorena: 29:23

Yeah, so with a master's program, in my experience here, has been very positive. I'm very grateful for all of the skills that I have learned in my advisor. But a master's program, very generally speaking, is where you really get a first opportunity at coming up with your own research, your own experiment, your own hypothesis. You're learning how to test that hypothesis in a very methodical way and you find these results and you learn a lot about how to set up your experiment and then you have to write everything up. So you accumulate a lot of these skills of problem solving.

Lorena: 30:00

You have to have good time management. You know, I think coming from my undergrad and more generally just a bachelor's degree, you are there to learn the fundamentals of your field. And so you are sitting in lecture, you are trying to absorb everything, and then you're taking exams, and then you move on to the next class. And so, the master's degree is really where you get to apply that. And so, I knew, even at the beginning of my undergrad, I would love to apply what I'm learning and do something with it.

Lorena: 30:31

And a master's degree is also where, depending on where you go and how your program is set up, for you to get teaching experience. And that has been one of the highlights of my time here, to teach undergrads and providing that experience of here's your first fossil that you've ever seen and just seeing the look on their face and practicing with grading and explaining these concepts that you've been learning for years to an audience that this is their first time hearing about it. So it's a really exciting challenge and I love learning. I love being the learner. I also love being the teacher.

Lorena: 31:03

So it's really that good mix of both. And I know I'll be a life learner. And I just want to share my knowledge because I'm so passionate about it to others.

Shelby: 31:12

I think everything you said is a fantastic summary of sort of the grad school experience because you are applying knowledge in a much deeper way that you're sort of driving independently, maybe for the first time. You also are developing a lot of skills that I think sometimes in the moment, it's hard to envision how they apply outside of this very directed research project that you're on, but really are are, like, broadly ranging and so applicable to things outside of this little bubble that, you know, you spend several years in working on these projects. And the teaching aspect of it is so fun. You know, I always heard people would say, well, you really understand the subject when you can teach it. And you say, oh, yeah.

Shelby: 31:57

That sounds good. But then when you actually do have to teach it, you're like, wow. Yeah. Understanding the concept and then being able to communicate it in a way where a student who maybe is seeing it or hearing about it for the first time, like you mentioned, actually connects with them. That's that's a totally different skill set to build.

Shelby: 32:14

And it sounds like you've had great opportunities for that just from this episode. I can tell that you're also very skilled at that in being able to communicate some of those things. So I'm sure that the students who have gotten to have you in class have really appreciated that.

Lorena: 32:25

Thank you. I hope so too. Even if there's just one student that's like, you know what? I can appreciate geology a little bit more when I'm hiking or maybe I can pick up this fossil and just say, is that a crinoid or is that a brachiopod? I've done my job.

Shelby: 32:39

Yeah. Excellent. And if there are people listening to this that are thinking of maybe grad school is something I'm interested in, maybe a master's, What advice would you have for somebody who may be in that position?

Lorena: 32:52

I would say to start off, lots of questions. I know I would not be here if I did not ask questions of, you know, who does this research and where and thinking about what do I actually want. Grad school is where you can research something that you're very interested in and so I wanted to make sure that I was passionate about my research because that just makes a huge difference. And so when I was looking for grad schools, I reached out to all the professors and and asked, do you know anybody that studies coral reef past, present, and applies that to the future? And got lots of names, and I was able to meet with these professors and learn more about what they do.

Lorena: 33:33

And from there, I wanted to make the best decision about where I would apply, and I could see myself. And I got accepted here, and I knew that that's, you know, where where I wanted to go. But continuing to ask questions and being curious, you know, asking about that Pitoskey stone is what really was pivoting in what I wanted to to do. And I think also keeping an open mind to, you know, things can change. And I know that I've always been interested in the natural sciences, but, after our conversation, I've done paleontology.

Lorena: 34:05

I've done marine biology. You know, I'm I'm helping with conservation. So all of those things are very related. And and so just keeping an open mind and seeing where where that takes you. I think also listening to, wow, I really don't want to do that.

Lorena: 34:20

Or, oh, I really like this. Let's investigate that further. Because both sides are are very valuable, so that you're efficient with your time and spend your energy on things that are worth it to you.

Shelby: 34:30

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Feel like sometimes people think if they try something and don't like it that that's a failure. But my opinion, that's a success too because that's so helpful to know this is something that I don't see myself doing. And it was an experience I had. And now I can try to find something else that is more appealing to me.

Lorena: 34:49

Yeah. And I think you learn so much about yourself. And I think for those experiences where you're like, yeah, I really don't want to do that, it's better finding it out then than later. And so just continuing to listen to yourself and thinking about, oh, what do I like or what do I not like? That can be helpful to have those moments of reflection.

Lorena: 35:09

Yeah, definitely.

Shelby: 35:10

So, you know, we started this episode hearing about, like you mentioned, this idea of coral diversity from the past, present, and then how you can apply that conservation in the future. And I know you're finishing things up and maybe still working on some analyses. Can you give us a little spoiler on what you may have found or maybe ways that you hope your work can be applied to conservation in the future?

Lorena: 35:33

Yeah. So something that I hope that can be applied from my research is from accumulating all this data and looking at the diversity changes, thinking about the species that have maybe since the last 5,000,000 and are still around today, could those be good species to target for conservation? Thinking about why have they been around for this long? And so I hope that my research can be applied for other research to be like, Okay, well this paper says that these species may be more resilient or can tolerate these temperatures or changes. So I'd be grateful if somebody had some thoughts about that and maybe implemented that into their research or thought process of another experiment.

Shelby: 36:21

Yeah, think that would be I mean, you're doing incredible work. And so I'm excited to see where it all goes from here.

Lorena: 36:26

Thank you.

Shelby: 36:27

So Lorena, we end each episode with our Yes, Please segment, where each of us gets a minute to talk passionately about something we're excited by. I always give folks the option. Do you wanna go first or do you wanna go second?

Lorena: 36:38

Sure. I will go first.

Shelby: 36:39

Okay. Then I will time you. K. And so if you're ready, this will be Lorena's yes, please segment.

Lorena: 36:45

So my yes, please is the BJ's Brewhouse Pizookie. I am somebody that has a sweet tooth, and I only tried their pizookies maybe maybe a couple years ago, and it's the only restaurant where I will order a dessert. So they call it the and it's this pizza cookie with ice cream and different toppings. And so what I get is their strawberry shortcake. And it's this sugar cookie that's freshly baked in a hot pan and there is vanilla ice cream and strawberries and whipped cream.

Lorena: 37:19

And not to give them more publicity, but they, on Tuesdays, are $5 instead of their normal price. So I don't know if you've tried them before, I would definitely recommend it. There is

Shelby: 37:33

Ten seconds.

Lorena: 37:34

BJ's Brewhouse in in Bloomington, and I think I've been there more times than the one in my hometown. It's just the perfect dessert to end end a dinner.

Shelby: 37:44

Amazing. Yeah. I have not tried it, but I will try it. And the strawberry shortcake version sounds great. And when it comes to dessert, I think a lot of times people are like chocolate chip cookie, chocolate chip cookie.

Shelby: 37:56

Mhmm. Not a huge chocolate chip fan, but a sugar cookie, I can absolutely get behind.

Lorena: 38:03

Yeah. They also have, like, freshly baked brownies too and different ice cream. So there's lots of different versions. So let me know if you go there

Shelby: 38:10

and what get. Yes. On a Tuesday. Alright. I'm putting that on my to do list.

Shelby: 38:14

K. And if you don't mind to tell me

Lorena: 38:16

Sure.

Shelby: 38:17

Then I will do my Yes, Please segment for today. Okay. Ready? Ready. Perfect.

Shelby: 38:22

Yes, please. Let's all embrace what we would normally consider nerdy hobbies. I feel like this has been brought on to me partially by the Olympics. I don't know if people were following the Olympics and the American female figure skaters, but one of them was very vocal about her passion for magic The Gathering, the card game, and also made it a point to talk about how, you know, like sometimes people consider that a nerdy hobby, but she really enjoyed it and and was proud of it. And I thought, yeah, like more people should be like that.

Shelby: 38:49

We all have things that we love and enjoy that maybe other people's don't fully appreciate. But I think by us embracing those and and like publicly talking about how much we enjoy them, it makes other people come on board and appreciate them too. Part of this was also spurred by a conversation with my trainer that I've been working with for a couple of years. He also has sort of this mindset. He recently built his own computer for gaming, which is a really cool skill to have and something to be really proud of.

Shelby: 39:16

And so I think, yeah, like embracing these things that maybe at one point may have been considered nerdy, I think we need to take full advantage of those.

Lorena: 39:24

Absolutely. I would agree too. I think about, know, maybe I like this certain hobby, but I don't know if somebody else does. And maybe there's a few people in your class that, you know, get together and do that thing. So I think it's really important to also, you know, meet new people and see how much you have in common because chances are you might have a lot, especially in the geology field.

Lorena: 39:46

You know, I feel like we're all a tight community here, so I feel like a lot of us share similar interests or don't. That's also great and getting to learn new hobbies too.

Shelby: 39:58

Yeah, that's what I think. It's fun. Maybe you are friends with people who don't do the same things, but you can have these opportunities to learn and grow and do something different that maybe you come to really enjoy but you had never thought about before. Lorena, thanks for coming on. This has been a really fun episode, so I appreciate you taking the time.

Lorena: 40:16

Thank you so much. I've had such a fun time, and I'm glad I get to share my experience and maybe help some students out there and just just give my perspective. So thank you so much.

Shelby: 40:25

Yep. And for folks that are listening, we'll see you back next week when we have a new guest. Earth on the Rocks is produced by Cari Metz with artwork provided by Connor Leimgruber, with technical recording managed by Kate Crum and Betsy Leija. Funding for this podcast was provided by the National Science Foundation grant EAR dash 2422824.