Laura Jones (00:18)
Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm your host,
Jones.
Jason Gaikowski (00:24)
And I'm Jason Gaikowski.
Laura Jones (00:25)
and we are Opinion Party. And today's Opinion Party, we have invited a special guest, John Sabine, Director of Social Media for Merriam-Webster. Welcome, John.
John Sabine (00:39)
Hey, thanks for having me. Great to talk to y'all.
Laura Jones (00:41)
Yeah, so great to have you. So today's topic is going to be about trust. And Jason, as we are a pod that aims to dispel marketing myths through the cold, cruel lens of data, do you want to hit us with a few pieces of data that got us here today? Why Merriam-Webster? Why are we talking to John today?
Jason Gaikowski (01:03)
Merriam-Wester. All about trust, I love talking about this. John, I feel I have to preface this true story. One of my managers some number of years ago, they said to me, Jason, you one day would be an outstanding leader of a company, but not an outstanding leader of an agency. You are way too honest.
So I share this, just cold hard facts, the cruel lens of data. John, I gotta say, congratulations. Merriam-Webster shows up in our 2024 BAV research study. Top 20, number 20 among the nation's most trusted brands. Absolutely, congratulations.
John Sabine (01:40)
Wow, that's great.
Well, thank you. I mean, we have so many people to thank, but no, that's great. Top 20. We'll get top 10 next year. We'll try harder, I guess.
Jason Gaikowski (01:52)
All right, good,
good, try harder. I like that. Look, I mean, and I just, want to put this in context for you, right? Like trust is this really, really kind of interesting component of a brand. It's something that everybody wants.
It's something that is kind of easy to get, right? In our research, it's one of the perceptions most commonly attributed to a brand, yet it's really easy to lose. And what we can see in the data over the past 21 years is across the board, there has been a 20 % decline in trust. But when we look at the most trusted brands, when I look at the top 200, top 250 brands, the top 2%, 10 % of brands in the nation, you've seen roughly double that decline.
The United States 21 years ago.
we've lost half the trust, even among Americans in our own nation. And despite that, Mary and Webster hanging out in the top 10. And let me tell you, John, you've got some amazingly illustrious company coming in at number one in our study, St. Jude Research Hospital.
John Sabine (02:59)
I guess they're okay.
Laura Jones (03:01)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Jason Gaikowski (03:03)
An exceptionally high attribution
rate for 2024 coming in at 44.59 % perceptual attribution on trustworthy. Then you get just this amazing collection, the Mayo Clinic. Various branches of the US military. Apparently we trust the military, but not our country. I find that absolutely fascinating. The National Weather Service. Breast Cancer Research Foundation.
John Sabine (03:19)
We'll accept that.
Jason Gaikowski (03:33)
the very first commercial brand, Rubbermaid, comes in as the number one corporate brand, killing it, followed immediately by Merriam-Webster, number 20, overall clocking in at about 30 % in our research study. Absolutely, absolutely fantastic. Rubbermaid and you, you're absolutely killing it. I don't know, how you doing this? How you pulling this off, John?
John Sabine (03:37)
Hey, I get it. I get it, yeah. Whoa!
Laura Jones (03:41)
You
John Sabine (03:50)
So Rubbermaid and us are the, whoa, okay. We're coming after you. Rubbermaid, we're coming after you. Wow.
Laura Jones (03:54)
Yeah.
John Sabine (04:01)
I mean, that's crazy.
Jason Gaikowski (04:02)
Trust is going to hell everywhere in a hand
basket and yet you're standing proud, standing tall. What gives?
John Sabine (04:08)
that's a great question. mean, I can I have my thoughts and who knows if they're correct, but I do think longevity like we're an old company like it's I bet you I would love to know the youngest company with the highest trust like we've been around since 1828, which like is long, you know, that's a long time. And I think having that longevity and having that just being kind of our and a lot of people's lives for that long like we've I've never once just been a part of my life since I was a kid.
Laura Jones (04:16)
Mmm.
John Sabine (04:37)
my parents' lives since I was a kid, I think that helps because there's something very comforting about something that is around for a while.
Laura Jones (04:47)
Yeah, absolutely. Take us back a little bit to 1828, was it? 1828, set the scene. How does one become... Why was trust important back then for language, for dictionaries?
John Sabine (04:51)
1828? Well, I've ate. Noah Webster? No, no, yep.
Jason Gaikowski (04:58)
You
John Sabine (05:00)
That's a great question. mean,
I do think there's a great thing is like dictionaries were relatively like Merriam Webster was the first American English dictionary. So which is different than like British dictionary. Right. Like no. reason we don't spell color on our favorite with a U is because no Webster abhorred silent letters that have meaning. He also wanted to spell tongue T-U-N-G and that didn't catch on. And I think it should have caught on.
Laura Jones (05:10)
Mmm.
Jason Gaikowski (05:12)
Hi tech.
Hahaha
Laura Jones (05:29)
No magic E as my daughter in fourth grade would say.
John Sabine (05:30)
But it would no magic, you know, no, no. yeah, but he wanted it to
so he he wrote it to be This is a new nation and it wanted to reflect how people were writing and speaking over the time and I do think the fact and I will say this like it was a big undertaking it took took decades to do and I feel like the fact that it how I view it when I was a kid just
going back 20, but I view this as like a public, I used to view the dictionary as like a public utility kind of like of like, it's a public service. Like I'm looking it up that way. We're not we're commercial, but I do think joining the company, there is an ethos of that of like, this is kind of like we're not here. We're not. We're not the capital one venture dictionary. No offense. Like it's like we want to keep it as scholastically pure.
Laura Jones (06:05)
Mmm.
John Sabine (06:28)
and unbiased as possible. And we really want to make sure that we reflect how the language is used. We are descriptivist dictionary, which means that we describe how people use it. We're not prescriptivist, which is saying you should write and talk like this. There's a little bit of a difference here. Other dictionaries are saying this is the right way to do things. We say, hey, people do it this way. This is more accepted, but we're less likely to weigh in on right and
like right and wrong ways to do things. If that makes sense a little bit. And I do think having that being a descriptive dictionary has helped with our trust because we're not scolding you and we're not trying to put ourselves on a hill saying, know, English should be, you know, for the elite until, know, it's not this everything should reflect Latin. No, we're saying people, languages change. It's of the people. It organically changes. It's very fun that it does.
And so whenever we release like a new update, it's kind of like a snapshot of how the language is used because words change over time. And I think.
Laura Jones (07:35)
So more urban
dictionary, less grammarly.
John Sabine (07:39)
A little bit, I guess that helps. Yeah, mean,
truly. like, but I do think like we it does. I will say like, I really want to stress that it does the amount of scholarship that goes into every entry is like through the roof. It's still it's very similar to how it's been done for, you know, since the beginning. It's they we have editors and they do citations and they they sometimes they work on notecards, sometimes work computer. It's very like it's it's very how you would imagine it. Very academic. It's very, you know, no frills.
Laura Jones (08:03)
academic sounds like. Yeah.
John Sabine (08:09)
So, because we want to stand by that work and I think like keeping that level of scholarship also has helped our trust. Our editors are incredibly, I mean, the smartest people I've ever met in my life, like truly. Like I'm always like, man, I'm a fraud here. And curious, they're very curious about language.
Jason Gaikowski (08:24)
Well, I want to
Yeah, well let's use a really wonderful phrase thinking about Merriam-Webster as a kind of public service. And I wanna touch on that for a moment. Then you built on that talking about the kind of academic integrity that sits behind the public service.
John Sabine (08:36)
Yeah, I...
Jason Gaikowski (08:48)
From what I see in the data, think that thematically really, really comes true in terms of the brands that are really, really trusted today in contrast to 21 years ago. Like, I mean, my goodness, St. Jude Research Hospital and the Mayo Clinic.
John Sabine (09:07)
I that's...
Jason Gaikowski (09:08)
like non-profit healthcare organizations kind of operate as a bit of a public service. Military organizations operate as a public service, right? A high integrity, academically based research organization, which is what Merriam-Webster is, is a kind of public service, right? And what I think is interesting is if I draw a contrast to that,
John Sabine (09:13)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (09:33)
Because if you look at newspapers, magazines, that 20 plus years ago operated with a responsibility towards public service, as they've shifted to a more commercially driven model, what we can see in the data is, and I don't use these words lightly, the absolute obliteration of trust in media brands, in publisher brands.
in brands that are chasing engagement and entertainment as opposed to operating in the space of public trust. So it seems to me like you've got this really amazing, like authentic asset that makes it likely that you're gonna continue to be able to maintain trust even as those around you continue to fall.
John Sabine (10:20)
I I hope so. Like, I really do hope so because I also think it's more interesting just to work on. you know, it's a it's with regards to like, don't think I don't know if like, forth to gain trust is like the goal sometimes. But I think it's if you're following the right goal, that's that's this it's a great symptom of or great like, you know, it's a byproduct of doing the work the right way and being intellectually honest and curious and like
not being afraid to reflect how the language is spoken. I do know that like one thing that again, this is me anecdotally. This is my vibes. This is not like a merry but but in the 90s, our president, this is again way before my time, decided to put the dictionary on the internet. At the time, we sold dictionaries and that seems insane.
Jason Gaikowski (11:00)
Bring it. You got the anecdotes. I got the data.
Laura Jones (11:02)
the vibes. Bring all the
vibes.
John Sabine (11:19)
in the moment I imagine if you're selling dictionaries and like, hey, just put the whole thing here. You don't need to buy it now. Throw it up there. Just go right there. You're going to. And so but I think that was very prescient. Like, I think that was very I would I would never have thought that far ahead and being able to. And I think it does go back to when the Merriam brothers started publishing the Webster dictionary. They kept Webster on
Laura Jones (11:24)
Skip the CDs, just go straight to the internet.
Jason Gaikowski (11:28)
Yeah.
John Sabine (11:47)
the title, which at the time was rare because he wasn't writing it. The new editors were writing it, but it was almost like one of the very first American branding. Like people trusted Noah Webster's dictionary. So they bought the rights to it and kept Webster's on there. In fact, Webster's son wrote them and said, you need to take my father's name off of this because he's not he's dead. He's not writing this. And they were like, with all due respect, no, we're going to keep it because it'll help us. And you already have it's like a brand that people trust. But their goal, their goal was to always get the
Jason Gaikowski (12:08)
keeping him.
John Sabine (12:16)
dictionary down to the masses, how you can get it cost effective and cheap. I got down to the first paperback, I think, after World War Two was like 25 cents. And that was like huge because anyone could have it now. 25 cents paperback. And how do you go lower than 25 cents? You go free on the Internet. And I think being that I think is a huge step towards this whole public utility of being here. Here you go. If you want if you want to know a word, go look it up.
Like, you can go look it up right now. There's no, we do have subscription services for Underbridge edition. Of course we have that, we offer tiers, but if you want to look up the majority of our collegiate, go look it up and you'll get to not only get the definition, you'll get its first known use, you'll get the etymology. And I think that helps us understand our culture a little more. We understand more about the words of how we communicate and build the culture with the words. But yeah, I just, I love the fact that you put it on.
Laura Jones (13:10)
Yeah, that's fascinating.
John Sabine (13:14)
up there and I'm like that's the best.
Jason Gaikowski (13:16)
Yeah,
I love the contribution to the Commonwealth.
John Sabine (13:20)
Yeah, it's I mean, I was a fan before I worked here, right? Like it was I would I would I would beg. I don't know. Am I using them used correctly? I don't know. Like and I would type it in and go, I've been using it incorrectly. look, enough of us have been using it incorrectly that it now kind of means what we all were using it incorrectly as like that's perfect. That's interesting. And so I feel like the fact that it's so easy and quick and you can do it, I it may I know.
Laura Jones (13:30)
you
Jason Gaikowski (13:34)
You
John Sabine (13:49)
I view it personally, it was a positive in my personal life before I worked here. Again, I don't know if it's at St. Jude's level positive, but it was very positive.
Laura Jones (13:53)
Yeah, and.
Absolutely. And you know, the democratization, it sounds like of access to knowledge, access to literacy, all of those things really sound like there was a visionary element to even down to the branding, right? Keeping consistency of naming is something that today we would say, of course, but back in the time, you know, turn of the century when I imagine newsies were selling papes in the streets, you know, having that vision to hold that forward. And then the recognition
John Sabine (14:03)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Jones (14:28)
and that brand living on, know, hundreds of years later, definitely all contribute to that consistency and trust, absolutely. And, you know, juxtapose, I love what you were saying about the rigor behind which the dictionary is produced. And we were looking at some data, in fact...
Merriam-Webster is much more trusted than Wikipedia, is something with has similar aspects. One could argue it's online, it's democratized access to information. However, Jason, what's your take from a data point of view on Wikipedia?
John Sabine (14:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Gaikowski (14:58)
Yeah.
Well, Wikipedia.
And I was surprised by this Wikipedia carries about one-third of the level of trust that Merriam Webster does like in the in the total brand rankings in contrast to To where you guys are weighing in Wikipedia is hanging around in the five or six hundreds Right now Wikipedia is still beating out mainstream Television brands like CBS been around for a long time Had that same icon. yeah, CBS. What do you
John Sabine (15:34)
CBS?
Jason Gaikowski (15:37)
I
mean, CBS, look, if I go to the Wayback machine, if I go back 21 years, CBS's level of trust at 32.74 attribution percentage compares very comparably to Merriam-Webster today, right? 32.74, you're actually slightly ahead of where CBS was 21 years ago.
John Sabine (15:38)
Tracker? All right.
Take that Jeff Probst season one of Survivor. My gosh, that's crazy. that's kind of, that's wild.
Jason Gaikowski (16:05)
In those 21 years, CBS has lost about 40 % of its trust. Right?
Laura Jones (16:05)
Survivor.
Jason Gaikowski (16:15)
I mean, if you think about the most trusted automobile brand in the world, right? Like we ought to trust an automobile brand, safety, security, getting us from point A to point B. Toyota, absolutely, positively the most trusted automobile brand in the data. You are hanging out in the same space as Toyota was 21 years ago.
John Sabine (16:30)
Hey, good for them.
well, my pre-owned camera is looking real good right now.
Jason Gaikowski (16:45)
Toyota's lost about
25 % of its trust over the past 21 years. Right?
Laura Jones (16:49)
Yeah, and maintaining trust is
John Sabine (16:50)
So,
Laura Jones (16:51)
no small feat, right? I mean, you can imagine all of the things that happen to a road trust, especially now that people can just go online and just say whatever they want about a brand. I'm curious if you're willing to share, if you're aware of any, have there ever been times in the Merriam Wester history where you face challenges to your trust or?
John Sabine (16:52)
wow, yeah.
Jason Gaikowski (16:54)
No small joke.
John Sabine (17:03)
Yeah.
I, yeah, I, personally, again, I, I don't, I'm sure it has happened. Unfortunately, like from my social lens, I have not uncovered any of that, not to have a boring answer, but no, I don't, there, there, with regards to challenges, I do think every day is like a, there's a challenge every day. Cause if you, if you exist online, it is the online internet moves fast. It moves quick.
It's very easy. You don't know what's going to happen. You can have something scheduled to like, this would be great. And then all of a sudden there's a fire and it's like, I was going to do the definition of pyromaniac. I shouldn't do that because there's wildfires now. like you have to be kind of, it's so easy to, cause you're talking to the world. And I think one way to like, personally, I'm behind the keyboard. I'm doing all of our social stuff. I'm constantly aware of like,
how easy it is to lose trust. that is a daily moment to moment concern that's in the back of my mind. And so whether or not you're gonna lose it on a huge scale brand, but just in terms of one-on-one connections, because that's what the internet is, is trying to connect with one-on-one, some people to the group and then one-on-ones, how you can make sure to protect that because it is
very important and we take it very important. we want people, if you don't trust us online, you won't trust our dictionary. And that's how I view it. Like it is a duty. I've really, a sacred duty, I think that it is. And so I'm constantly aware of it. Like it is like, I stay up at night worried about it. Truly.
Jason Gaikowski (18:44)
You know, I have a...
Well look, think
there's a heck of a lot of brands that could really, like they really learn an important lesson from the kind of, I mean I'm gonna use your words, the kind of sacred duty that you feel towards preserving and maintaining Merriam-Webster trust. I mean the level of trust that you have now would have ranked you about 400th 20 years ago.
That means that there are 400 brands that perhaps, maybe, have not taken the duty as seriously as you have, right? And have seen precipitous declines and erosion of their trustworthiness showing up in the data, right? So I think maybe you get some tips and some lessons to teach people.
John Sabine (19:22)
Wow.
Whoa. I mean, guys.
Laura Jones (19:39)
Yeah, and.
John Sabine (19:43)
I mean, over you guys.
Laura Jones (19:44)
Yeah, John, you mentioned
trust can be canceled overnight. And it sounds like you do create trust through a series of decisions and micro actions. So that's really important to note.
John Sabine (19:51)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
I think a lot of brands and again, socials are very specific. The internet moves so fast. It's like so different than like even like 20th century marketing stuff. think it's just like so it just like it's so hard to it's very murky. And I think a lot of brands often like they don't engage. A lot of people are off stuff right now, you know, or they just do it's just like paid. just do like, you know, they're not they're not trying to have these one on one connections, which I like. No, don't fault them. But I think
If you want to build trust, it isn't just not making mistakes. Like it's not just sins, avoiding sins of commission. or I guess it's just not sins of omission where you're not, I'm not going to engage so that I can't make a mistake. I think it is like building trust. It's not just refusing to lose it. You have to actually start building it with people. And how do you do that? By meeting people where they are and talking to them, how they do without losing your authenticity without, and I think that's what's very hard with the internet. Cause like we're, we're dusty old book.
essentially, you know, like it's we are purposely not cool. And I think like that's good. Like, let's be honest with what we are. And I think that's really tough for a lot of brands. We are very hinged. Like I cannot stress to you enough in most brands online try to be super unhinged and salacious. And we also like just want to make sure that like we are if you have an idea what the dictionary is, if we subvert
your expectation that feels uncomfortable, you know? And I think like brands need to start like acknowledging how people think about them and meeting people at that perception a little bit. You can still be like ambitious and be like, no, this isn't this, this water is going to change the world. You're like, okay, well, you're still water. But like it is, I think that's been a big asset to us is that people
do have an analog relationship with our dictionaries, a long relationship with our dictionaries so they know who we are. And then our goal is to comfort them by being, hey, we are kind of still like that, even though we're on the internet or doing memes. And we're going to build your trust by having this interaction with you. you know, let's talk, let's talk, let's learn something together. And that's been kind of our daily social mission is to like have these connections and be like,
Laura Jones (22:22)
Yeah.
John Sabine (22:24)
This is interesting. Let's both learn about this as opposed to like, did you know? Because half the time I'm learning it as I'm doing it. I'm like, I don't know that. I find that interesting. But I do think that's a big distinction in not just losing trust, but also taking the effort and figuring out creative ways to build it. Because it's very fun. It's more fun that way too.
Laura Jones (22:34)
You
Jason Gaikowski (22:35)
Hahaha.
Laura Jones (22:48)
Absolutely. And John, you keep it really fun for people that don't know John is the voice of Merriam-Webster's social and the social voice, winner of a few Shorty Awards that we hear. Congratulations. And so, you know, yeah, right?
John Sabine (22:56)
Well, thank you. Yes, the social voice.
yeah, shorties. thank you. Thank you. my gosh, the shorties. Take that Mayo Clinic.
Laura Jones (23:12)
So you talked a lot about how your use of social media contributes to building trust. And we noticed an interesting sort of juxtaposition in our data. So Merriam-Webster, one of the most trusted brands in culture, social media brands and platforms, not so much. So Jason, you want to expand on that a little bit more? And then I'd love to hear, John, your perspective on what it's like building trust on platforms that, according to our data at least, have an inherent untrustworthy
John Sabine (23:22)
Let's go.
Laura Jones (23:42)
stability baked into them.
Jason Gaikowski (23:46)
Yeah, this is, I love what you said a moment ago. You're highly committed to being hinged and highly committed to not being salacious and yet you're doing so in an environment that rewards and encourages salacious and unhinged interactions. I find that super, super, the word engagement is interesting in what.
John Sabine (23:53)
Yeah, we have a dictionary.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, because engagement, right? The word engagement is interesting, right? What is that?
Laura Jones (24:10)
You
Jason Gaikowski (24:14)
what our data shows and in fairness, the exception to the rule is LinkedIn. So LinkedIn among social media brands, they do pretty well. They show up in the top 25 % of about 2800 brands overall. Beyond that,
Social media is a very, very low trust environment. Snap, Pinterest, Instagram, X or Twitter, both Pinterest. Facebook, Reddit, Truth, all in the bottom 15 % of all brands. The social media in...
John Sabine (24:46)
Pinterest?
Like when you
think of Twitter, it's people like, I don't trust. It's like the actual platform, right? That's what this is saying? Okay, okay.
Laura Jones (25:02)
Yes.
Jason Gaikowski (25:03)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, those actual platform brands. So social media brands in and of themselves are not garnering a high degree of trust, right? And I think that one might speculate that the way they facilitate and even incentivize outlandish, outrageous, enraging, fear, anger, unhinged.
John Sabine (25:27)
Absolutely.
Jason Gaikowski (25:30)
salacious interactions in the name of chasing engagement may, in this man's perspective, contribute to a low trust environment. So the fact that you are building a high trust brand in a low trust environment, this is absolutely fascinating to me. how are you doing it?
John Sabine (25:33)
Mm-hmm.
I mean,
Laura Jones (25:50)
that.
John Sabine (25:51)
I mean, just I get it. One man's opinion. You're like, I'm sure someone could. But I do think, though, that I think social is a bit right. My opinion at this party is that social media is a high fructose corn syrup world and people need some fiber and some vitamins. And I think there's a real hunger for like.
Jason Gaikowski (25:55)
And that's what the data says. The results, you got the results, my man.
Laura Jones (26:00)
I mean,
it is opinion party, so all opinions are welcome.
Jason Gaikowski (26:08)
Hahaha
John Sabine (26:16)
like honest knowledge that is kind of not, I wouldn't say wholesome, I wouldn't go that far, but like not trying to be like sexy or shocking in a way for just to get engagement, but something that is like, that I actually feel like I was in there, I ate something that was, good, I like, I've had a pretty, I've had a bender of a weekend, let me have some carrots. Like, you know what I mean? And like being on the internet, it's like going on a bender and then like being like, I'm gonna have a V8, you know, and like, we hope to be that V8, you know, like, and I do believe personally.
Jason Gaikowski (26:39)
Ha
Laura Jones (26:40)
Ha
John Sabine (26:46)
that there's a real thirst and hunger for it. I really believe that because, and we see it, like we see it, we see the shares when we bring things to Instagram that are true. Like the things that do the best are truly just text-based knowledge things or language things. Those do better than videos or memes or anything. The things that do the best are here's something interesting that's not, doesn't look great. Like it's just text.
It's basically a mocked up tweet. That's it. We've tried to put it with pictures. That isn't just text, which again, we are a book of text. Like it's kind of true to what we are. We are just a book of words put together. Sure, there used to be a couple of pictures every now and then, but it's very rare. And I think that so being a true to ourselves and also like noticing that like, hey, we don't have to try to shock you for this. again, I think we are lucky because people know what we are.
we're not trying to introduce ourselves while we're talking to you. And so I think when you see these salacious startup, like I think it usually goes to startups or newer companies because like they have to get to, no one knows who they are. So it's like, that's a creative way in, but we won't engage in like popular memes or stuff that wouldn't ring true for us. And it's not even like a inappropriate thing. It just is like, that would bum me out if I saw like,
the Department of Defense taking, doing like a dabbing challenge. You know what I mean? To be like, that's just like a bummer. Like I'm, I'm not even like really mad. I'm just kind of like, the internet is just like, if you like just think about, we're all on it, right? Like when you see a post, you're like, that's, man, that's a bummer. I don't want to see that, you know, life's already messy. I don't need to see that. I feel like, I guess so, but high road and low road indicates to me like,
Laura Jones (28:14)
Yeah.
Takin' the high road, it sounds like. It is a brand choice, yeah.
John Sabine (28:38)
morality when it's really like, I wouldn't do that. You know what mean? Like, I don't care if you do that. Like, Duolingo can do things that I can't do. We're both language companies, but like, good, good, good. I don't, I don't like knock them for doing it. Right. Like, I think that's like, that's them, you know, it's more like just being authentic to who you are. Cause when you say hybrid lower, I think there's, can sound like we would never, you know, and it's less that it's, it's just like, it's not right for us. And I think knowing what's right for you as a brand is
Laura Jones (28:40)
fair.
John Sabine (29:07)
huge because I authenticity is truly the only currency right now that kind of works. Again, opinion party.
Laura Jones (29:13)
Yeah, no,
I love that. I'm always open to challenges and corrections. And I want to talk about words a little bit more too. Are there words that are your go-to? Do you have them posted up on the wall next to the screen that are the words that inform the way that you engage with people on the social channels? Yeah. I wanted to avoid saying brand voice, but you got me.
John Sabine (29:20)
Let's do it.
Jason Gaikowski (29:21)
words.
John Sabine (29:27)
No, I wish.
that's a great question. yeah, so like we don't like, we treat it... No, I like brand
voice. I know, that's fine. So like we tend to type, like we use, try to use as correct grammar as we can, you know, like we're not, but we're not a style guide. Like, so it's like, it's okay, but we don't, but we're not, like, well, we would probably say kind of as opposed to kinda, you know, that's just us, you know, we, let's just, write out the word.
Laura Jones (29:57)
Mmm.
John Sabine (30:03)
We try to be correct. When have a typo, when the dictionary has a typo, my gosh, it's the worst, and it happens. Like if I write a lot as one word, my gosh, goodbye, world. But it...
Laura Jones (30:16)
I'm the kind of person that
used to read the dictionary to find the typos, so I appreciate that.
John Sabine (30:21)
that.
we appreciate that actually. It's like people there's people who write in and find them on our website. And we always go thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. Like we'll go correct it right now. But so we do talk like we try to talk in a sentence case with as with using the words correctly. We're not going to talk in all caps unless it's purposeful. Whenever we do do types of like incorrect incorrect slang, usually it's in reference to like a well-known meme. So like clothes like
Laura Jones (30:27)
You're welcome.
John Sabine (30:51)
we do close your laptop, close laptop till Sunday meme, you know that like that you see on Fridays, till is, we wouldn't do it that way, but to match the meme, I do it that way. Does that make sense? if it's to reference something, I wanna speak the dialect that people are speaking. Like if people are using the vosotris form, I will do my best to use the vosotris form, whatever on the internet. And so without, again, without.
Laura Jones (31:00)
Mmm. Yes. Colloquial. Mm-hmm.
John Sabine (31:16)
being a total masquerade of who we are. But yeah, so we'll try to speak the dialogue without changing our accent, if that makes sense. Does that make sense? Okay, yeah, bye.
Laura Jones (31:23)
Absolutely. Yeah, I just love that you dropped
the word vasotros on us. Are we conjugating verbs here? mean...
John Sabine (31:29)
I don't know, you know what I mean? I mean,
I just remember, I just remember you learn that in Spanish and then being like, you'll never use it. I'm like, well, why are you telling me this? What is it? Well, I want to, I would love to use the Vsotris form sometime. I've never had an opportunity to. But that's kind of, I do think thinking about that stuff is important. Exactly. I mean, I never thought that, but I do think it builds trust to have that level of like thought. I think you have, you have to like really think about that stuff. I used to run the social for Velveeta cheese.
Jason Gaikowski (31:43)
Congratulations, here at the opinion party, you can drop those kind of words.
John Sabine (31:58)
No big deal, Humberbrag. But we spoke in all caps. We spoke in all caps. And I remember they would be like, why? I'm like, because we're like, it's Volfita. You know, like it sounds like a scream. We're inauthentic. We're processed. We're not natural. know, like we are. Yeah, we're loud. It's like, and so like that's why, you know, it's like the color's bold, you know, like, and so we talked in all caps. They actually.
Laura Jones (32:15)
But never cheesy was that in the.
John Sabine (32:26)
We won that one, they let us do that. so, Claussen, did all the lowercase. That's the logo, it's cool. So, yeah, you have to really think about that stuff. Does it matter who knows, but I think it does, it doesn't hurt the trust if you think about that, I view it that way. I know, right? I mean, who knows?
Laura Jones (32:42)
I mean that is just absolutely fantastic,
fascinating and does Merriam Webster have an official point of view on puns I wonder?
John Sabine (32:52)
We love puns. Word play, we love it. Now we don't do often, do it often, like, and being playful I think is also like, I think humor online, Wendy's, God bless them. Everyone thinks when a brand is funny, they're kind of being mean. And no, humor is being playful. Like you can still be playful and intellectual or smart and without punching down. You know, you don't have, like we try to never punch down because that's like the last thing people need.
And so, but yeah, you can still be playful with the words as long as it's purposeful and like not misleading, you know, that's always, you don't want to like totally mislead with the word, with joking. So like, so they're like, that dictionary says this is correct, you know.
Laura Jones (33:30)
Yeah.
brought up play because I'm gonna switch topics a little bit to spelling bees, right? When I think of dictionaries, I think of spelling bees. Can we talk a little bit about how spelling bees play into the overall narrative of the brand, of trust, and is it really even important for kids to learn how to spell anymore, dare I ask?
Jason Gaikowski (33:36)
You know
John Sabine (33:39)
Let's do it. yeah. Love the spelling bee. Love it. Do it.
Jason Gaikowski (33:42)
selling these.
John Sabine (33:48)
Yeah.
yeah,
yeah, of course. Well, I mean, like I was terrible at spelling V as a kid growing up, very bad at them. Probably still am, but I do. So we've been the official dictionary of the script spelling V and they use our dictionary for, you know, the big one. Our editor, Peter Sekulowski is one of the judges and he also is on the committee that picks the words they're gonna use every year for the spelling V. And so I love it, cause again,
Laura Jones (34:19)
Hmm.
John Sabine (34:25)
I do think like a love of language and a love of words is, personally, I find it very interesting. just not only interesting, it helps me form my thoughts. Like when I find out there's words, like, I love it, like Schadenfreude, we don't have that in English, but there's ideas and thoughts that like we don't have words for that exist, that I wouldn't know unless this German word existed. And that's like, yeah, like now I know what that means.
Laura Jones (34:43)
Such a good word.
John Sabine (34:55)
I think that is important. like, if people misspell things, great. I think we were like so I think if you ever met a dictionary editor, you'd be they are so like, yes, like, I remember I asked one like my first week, I was like, what's one of your biggest like pet peeves? And they were like, people who asked those kinds of questions, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's like language changes, and it morphs in like, I don't use irregardless, I, we
Laura Jones (35:07)
Forgiving, chill.
John Sabine (35:24)
We mentioned irregardless is not standard. If you have to choose between the two, use. But it's in the dictionary because people have used it enough. I mean, if it's in the greatest TV show of the 21st century. But I feel like it's a so that's what I saw. They're kind of they're not they're forgiving, not permissible. think that's a great word because I was going to say permissible, but that's not true. They're forgiving. And it's like we all have typos. We all make mistakes. you misspell words, not the end of the world.
Laura Jones (35:31)
It's in the sopranos, John, even more importantly.
John Sabine (35:52)
Like no one's going to misspell entrepreneur on the first try ever. Why does Colonel, why is Colonel pronounced that way? It doesn't make any sense. But you can learn through the etymology of like, okay, I can kind of see the logic of it now. And so is it important? I have no idea, but I'm glad it exists personally, not just from like an ambitious professional, because like, it's like our Superbowl. But I do love that. Like, I'm very impressed when I watch it and I see these kids, because I could.
I have no idea and to see them break down a word I find that like just interesting and cool and again like I it's a celebration of the words we use it every day it's like so interesting how like we type now more than we talk and it's so weird to think of it that way like like like I keep in touch with my friends all day long I haven't talked on the phone in a month you know what I mean but we're on like five group chats it's so weird and you have to be able to communicate effectively
Usually that involves spelling the word as close as you can to the right way, quote unquote. So people understand what you're trying to say. But yeah, so I think it's important, but I'm very biased. Full disclosure. Yeah, but.
Laura Jones (36:59)
No.
Absolutely.
You know, thinking ahead to the future, right? We mentioned what is going to be, you think the future of the, even the concept of brand trust over time. We've seen how it's, you know, just completely devolved. We've seen rapid shifts in the types of brands that are trust. What do you think is important for marketers going forward to know about trust?
John Sabine (37:26)
That's a great, great question. mean, I think the terms of conditions change so rapidly now. I think, again, I analogy I like to use is like, we used to be on like a Earth like planet with like seasons that you could like, you know, everything's gonna be kind of the same every year you do your Christmas ad, you do this, blah, blah, Like we're on a gas giant now. Like it just, it's constantly changing and you have to constantly adjust your sales. And I think being agile and really
trying to connect with people builds trust. And if you go out to try to build trust, it probably won't work. Like, you know, that can't be the objective. Like, cause that's an agenda. Like that's like kind of like, that's like networking, right? Like that's like, I'm going to go network and you're like, okay. Well, that's, Hey, like, you know, there's something that feels very like I'm being used. And so, man, the future I have no clue what I imagine it will change rapidly every year of like,
Laura Jones (38:11)
Yeah.
John Sabine (38:25)
what strategies work, what to do. And I imagine it would probably, people will be, I think people will be more forgiving of missteps also as well. Like when brands put their foot in their mouth or something because something happened that they didn't, know, they've had a post scheduled. I personally think people won't like distrust them as much as they used to. Like, does that make sense? Like,
Laura Jones (38:36)
Mmm.
John Sabine (38:52)
I think they'll be like, I get that. That happens. This world is crazy. Okay. I think consumers will be a little like, you know, like some people are, there's data breaches of DNA, you know, like it wasn't that, you know, like, you know, there's some, that's how the problems have gotten so bad that like, it's no offense to anyone who did that, but like, I feel like we will be more forgiving as people who enter. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I, I, I'm finding that to be true. Like things that are like,
Laura Jones (39:05)
Yeah.
John Sabine (39:21)
mistakes or cancelable missteps can kind of help sometimes even be like a relate ability, like increased relate ability and be like, yeah, we've all been okay, that's a bad day, it's fine. And if the way you handle those honestly and authentically and not trying to spin it, I think could be an opportunity. think to make this really long, I sort of make any sort of sense. think...
Laura Jones (39:30)
Hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (39:47)
You
John Sabine (39:48)
the opportunities to build trust will increase way more. Because how you talk, I think the platforms are gonna get very different. How you speak on one is gonna be different, how you speak on the other, it's already that way for a lot, just even terms of what you composed. And I think you're gonna have to just be able to code switch very quickly if you want to build more trust on social.
Laura Jones (40:11)
Absolutely. In that opinion...
Jason Gaikowski (40:12)
And I
think that I'm gonna say I think that you know if I stitch together a few themes that you've touched on and I don't I don't have a way to measure this directly in the data, but thematically it comes through It's okay to be an authority It's not okay to be authoritarian right Like like like you can be like a respected institution that stands for something
Laura Jones (40:13)
Yeah, go ahead, Jason.
John Sabine (40:31)
I love, yes, I could, I could not agree with anything more. Yes.
Jason Gaikowski (40:41)
but you should also be a little bit playful. And you should be forgiving. And you should neither pretend that you're perfect because you're gonna make mistakes, nor should you expect other people to be perfect. Right? And so I think there's like, we're kind of in it together and we have this particular specialized expertise or point of view and we wanna share it with you. But we're not gonna impose it on you.
John Sabine (40:44)
Yeah, I...
is truly...
Yes, the last, yes.
If you say fewer instead of less, like or less instead of like, I know what you mean. Lay or lie. this is again, I think the word we got problems. This ain't it. You know what mean? Like, and I feel like, but we also can't be like anything goes because like, that's not our role. And we don't believe that we don't believe anything goes. Yeah. And like, it's like, yes, we need to have like established rules on how to spell and what words mean. Like, and like
Jason Gaikowski (41:18)
Hahaha.
The absence of rules is chaos. We don't want chaos.
John Sabine (41:35)
when my father was like, what does Riz mean? I was like, let's look it up. Because I feel I feel a thousand years old when I say Riz, you know? And so we look it up and it's in the dictionary now, you know? And it's like, that's helpful. knowing where, I mean, I know, I don't, but like, I don't, but it's in the vernacular. Now you're not lost. You know what it is? You don't feel, you know, it's like, yeah, you know, the older you get,
Laura Jones (41:49)
and then you're never allowed to say it out loud in front of anyone under the age of 15.
John Sabine (42:04)
the world changes so fast you just kind of get mad at it. And it's like, well, this can be kind of like a compass to help you, you know, go into these weird social language, you know, frontiers. Here you go. We have something for you. You don't have to use it. Like, that's also a great thing about words. Like, I think if you don't realize you don't have to use the word if you don't want to. But it's important to be to have an authority, especially now because everything is chaos, but also not.
Laura Jones (42:06)
Yeah.
Jason Gaikowski (42:07)
You
John Sabine (42:34)
Let's not yell at people. That's already happening a lot. That's the last thing anyone uses, the dictionary screaming at someone for a mistake. Yeah.
Laura Jones (42:41)
Yeah, absolutely. And to your point
about forgiveness, we have seen through our data that the overall strength of a brand...
Before kind of moments of breaks of trust, for example, you know, we looked at the comparison of United Airlines and what happens when there's a big airline issue with them versus an Uber. United Airlines tends to be, you know, transportation. It's a commoditized brand versus Uber, right? It's a momentum leader. It's a disruptor. Even some pretty significant safety issues.
have happened on their platform, but their brand bounces back faster after those moments of breaches and trust because it's starting from a much higher place of overall strength. And so in some ways, investing in your brand, in branding and being committed to a brand such as Merriam-Webster and that consistency actually can insulate you from those moments where inevitably trust is going to be breached. So.
John Sabine (43:26)
Really?
And existing is a risk, Like just existing, especially on social platforms. Like that's why you've seen many leave certain platforms. And I think for some, they shouldn't be on, like not everyone should tweet. You I don't know if like, don't, if I make fake hips, I don't know if I need to be tweeting. You know what I mean? Like that's insane. Like, yeah, like there's other ways to reach people. Yeah. You know, like it's like, but every, every now and then you see a brand like try to, you're like, what are you doing? Like you, this is like, you're like a water testing thing. Like, but like it doesn't feel like.
Laura Jones (44:01)
Did you just say fake hips, John?
John Sabine (44:13)
authentic that you would even show up at this party, you know, and it's like knowing what room I mean, let's be all brands are cops. And so like you show up at a party, you're not invited. Social media is not for brands. It's for humans. So you have to be hyper aware of like, hey, hi, I know, I know, I know, I know, I was invited. I brought dip. I know I'm going to leave early. Don't worry. Like you have to kind of like you're crashing a party and having that like being gracious towards the hosts. I feel like
A lot of brands don't do and I feel like you have to just kind of like tip the hat like I'm okay. I'm gonna leave don't worry I'm not gonna I'm not gonna clog up your timeline. I'm not gonna reply to everything just to get engagement Because again engagement. Hmm. What is that? it's so it's so vague Drives me crazy. I think that's very important. I'm fascinated with that uber Airline thing though. That's fast United Airlines and that makes sense to me like when I hear it out loud But I guess I never thought of it that way that they can just
Maybe because it's also isolated instances. I don't know. It's never like 4,000 Ubers missed Christmas, you know? Like, yeah. Or we don't give bailouts, you know? Maybe that's also, I don't know. That's what's fascinating. I have a question for you guys, because you guys know a lot more about data than me. And you can also not answer or cut this. But like, what is something where, you've, you don't have to name the brand, but like you've seen something in the data that you're like, this is not Jive with how I thought.
Laura Jones (45:17)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, okay, sure.
Jason Gaikowski (45:27)
Please.
John Sabine (45:41)
it would be like my anecdotal experience with this brand would be like, and it could be a positive thing. we're not like making fun of anyone. like, have you ever been like completely surprised by the data based on your own personal history or experience with a brand?
Laura Jones (45:56)
I'll give you a fun one and then Jason can do a little prep from the actual BAV data set. I am always shocked and I don't know if it's an urban legend or not. At ANU data, attitude and usage data around toilet paper, apparently only something like 98 % of people use it. So yeah, whenever I see that, although I did get served an ad for a reusable toilet paper the other day on Instagram. So.
John Sabine (45:58)
Okay.
day.
Wow, really, like
you keep it in your, wow.
Laura Jones (46:26)
and then you wash
it. anyway, shocking, but good for them, right? You mentioned climate change, so everyone needs to do their part.
John Sabine (46:30)
Good for them. They're doing their part. They're better than me at environment. I mean, truly, they're doing it.
That's probably what's doing it.
Laura Jones (46:40)
Jason,
do you have a better data point?
Jason Gaikowski (46:41)
Laura's.
Well, I mean, look, we have so much data and so many brands that I'm continually surprised, right? Like, it's almost dangerous to start going into the data because you'll find something surprising that'll lead you the next question. But one that,
John Sabine (46:59)
Yo.
Jason Gaikowski (47:04)
One that has really leapt out to me in the past couple of years, you may be familiar with Greyhound Bus. Greyhound Bus is a punching bag among marketers. is like marketers consistently talk about Greyhound as a low strength, low stature brand. Uninteresting, tired, and when you look among
John Sabine (47:11)
Yeah, I've used them.
What?
Seems like.
Laura Jones (47:29)
Utilitarian.
Jason Gaikowski (47:31)
Yeah, just when you look among all adults, Greyhound does not show up as particularly interesting brand. When you look at males, females, young, old, all these different slices, Greyhound, it's like the worst transportation option. But if you look at how Greyhound customers perceive Greyhound, Greyhound customers perceive Greyhound the same way that Chevy owners
John Sabine (47:40)
I mean, yeah, you don't want to take the bus. No one's going to like, feel like, yeah.
No, love it. It hits him.
It solves the problem. Yep.
Jason Gaikowski (48:01)
perceive Chevy, right? Like among Greyhound customers, Greyhound is like your absolute favorite airline. And when you stop and think about it, if you're poor or you're afraid of flying, or you live in a part of America that is very, very remote from an airport,
John Sabine (48:03)
that's fascinating. That makes sense too.
Yes!
It really solves,
it's a key that opens a lock. It really is. my God, that's fascinating.
Jason Gaikowski (48:25)
It gives you freedom.
And then I went down the rabbit hole and started researching the company. I'm like, man, their buses are refreshed and nice. The seat are like first class airline seats. They got onboard wifi. And I'm just like, I love this.
John Sabine (48:34)
Yeah, it's fun. It's great.
Mm-hmm.
It's like better than trains too, because you don't get super delayed like like you do with Amtrak sometimes like no offense to Amtrak, but like, that's fast. See, that's unbelievable. There's so much ways to quantify the qualitative with this kind of work too. Sometimes it can be like very overwhelming, like the KPIs like what is it? Do we care about impressions? we care? You know, like what do we care about? And I think that's always like a case by case basis. Like when people always ask that question, I'm always like, I don't know. It's up to you. It's it's it's whatever you.
Jason Gaikowski (48:50)
Hahaha
Laura Jones (48:55)
Yeah.
John Sabine (49:15)
You have to decide that, you know, for your brand. It's not a universal thing. I think people think it's a universal thing like sports statistics, but I don't think it is. don't think it is, but I'm willing to learn.
Laura Jones (49:25)
Yeah. Well, we are so happy that you crashed our party today, John. I'm going to close us out with one last surprise question. What's your favorite word?
John Sabine (49:30)
thank you. It was so fun to talk with y'all.
my gosh, that's a great question. My favorite word right now at the moment is sweater weather because I love, you know exactly what it means. I love the fall. I love layers and I just like sweater weather. know exactly what it means. I love it. It's self evident but it also is, you need the definition of it so that's mine. Sweater What about y'all?
Laura Jones (49:59)
It's a vibe. It's a vibe. Jason.
yeah. How about you, Jason?
Jason Gaikowski (50:04)
I mean my favorite word right now because I'm mentally stuck on it is bewildered. I am frequently bewildered and befuddled.
John Sabine (50:10)
that's a good one.
I like Be Wilder because it sounds like two words, it's like I be will, I be wilder. know, like I currently be wilder. I think that's like very fun.
Jason Gaikowski (50:20)
Hahaha
And I
love joining it with what, least in my mind, is its close cousin, Befuddled. It reminds me a little bit of like, forputs, in that I can use it a couple of different ways. But yeah, I love me some bewildered, I love me some befuddled. And Laura, what you got? Let's land this plane, favorite word.
John Sabine (50:28)
Yeah. yeah, yeah.
That's a great one. What about you, Laura?
Laura Jones (50:40)
Nice, nice.
I love the
word transmogrification. Yeah, I'm gonna bust it out to you. Yeah, the transformation of something to another thing that is so different and unrecognizable, it's almost comical. I think might be the definition. Call me out.
John Sabine (50:47)
Whoa. Yes.
Jason Gaikowski (50:48)
Calvin and Hobbes reference.
John Sabine (51:00)
I bet you
it's one those great etymologies where you say it's spelled out and you're yep, that's exactly it. Those are four Latin words. That's what it does. And I love that. I find that very comforting. We made a word. We just took four and put it together. I love that.
Laura Jones (51:08)
Yes.
we will take,
we will look it up in the Mirren-Webster dictionary and then put the actual definition in the show notes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's all the time we have for today. John, I hope you had as much fun coming to our opinion party. And remember, everyone is invited to opinion party. So if you've heard, if you've heard something you like, or you want to invite more party, just to the party, hit that subscribe button.
John Sabine (51:21)
Please do, please do, I'd love that.
Jason Gaikowski (51:24)
Ha
John Sabine (51:27)
Thank you.
Laura Jones (51:42)
and leave us a review and you can find, as I just mentioned, all of our VIP content on our show notes and on our website, theopinionparty.com. And for more data about what we mentioned in this episode, head over to bavgroup.com and vml.com, our show sponsors. Thank you so much, John, and it was fun partying with you today. Take care.
John Sabine (52:05)
Thank you.
