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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: From Try Tank Experimental Laboratory. This
is the Try Tank podcast, where we talk
about all things related to innovation in the
church. I'm, um, Father Lorenz la Brija. Huh. Thank
you for joining us,
and hello, everyone. Welcome to the Try Tank
podcast. Father Lorenzo here. This is a
cool episode, I gotta tell you. This will actually take
you a little bit behind the scenes as to how
Try Tank does some of its work, because
today I'm having a conversation with the Reverend Tay
Moss, and we're going to talk about ask Cathy
AI, which is a new tool that we just released
out into the world. It's, uh, some call it a
groundbreaking technology because it's kind of
like a chat body manage chat GPT. But she only
knows a certain part of that, and she
has a very specific bookcase that she references
all the time, which is all about anglican and
episcopal theology. Anyways, you'll hear all about
that in this podcast. So, uh,
it's really interesting because you'll see some of the questions that I'm
asking are questions that I'm actually
asking. Ask the person who hired him to do this
work. So you will see some of the work, but you'll also see
how Kathy is different, she's accurate, she's
verifiable, how we talked about safety,
how we, uh, looked at what
happens when she hallucinates. Uh, and we just
also want to make sure that, uh, she's good for the church in
all that we do. We'll also talk a little bit about version
three of Cathy. The one that's out there in the world right now is version
two, so stick around for that. Let me tell
you a little bit about Tay. Uh, the reverend Tay Moss earned his M div
from Yale Divinity School and has been involved in creative
ministries at the congregational and
diocesan level for about 20 years
now. Some of his projects have included developing social
enterprises, video production, arts and
spirituality, food banks, continuing education
for clergy and transition, children's ministry,
creative edge worship, running conferences
and coaching churches, investing grant
money to grow in mission. I'm, um, tired of
just saying all that. He has been a volunteer consultant for the
Diocese of Toronto, working with the congregational
development department for more than twelve years now.
He'd like you to know also that he's an excellent sailor and an
above average cook. Uh, his wife and
three kids keep him quite busy. Has his work, by
the way. But besides sailing and cooking, Tay enjoys
canoe camping and chilling in the
hammocks. And that's where he and I would not get along as well,
anyways, let's go on to the podcast.
Podcast number zero one nine, podcast 19
on Kathy. Hope you enjoy.
Hey, Reverend Tay Moss. Welcome to the
Try Tank podcast.
>> Tay: Thank you. Good to be here. Glad to join you.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: This, you know, this is one of the benefits of these sorts of things is that I can
be here in Los Angeles, you can be there in
Canada, and still we managed to record a
podcast well together. So here we go. All right,
so today we're talking about something. I've got to tell people
this story, though. Originally, when, um,
internally, we were talking about, when do we want to release Kathy,
and what do we do about her? We said, okay, we'll do a soft launch at
general convention, which we did. Just a soft. So people start to use her,
make sure that my biggest fear, right, that she doesn't give a wrong
answer somewhere along the lines, and tell someone that they're bad.
Um, so we've been testing. She's done really, really
well. And then internally, we were like, okay,
you know, there's a lot of things coming up were in the summer, so
why don't we look at between after the election in the US,
but before advent one, so the small churches can still use
her to plan, you know, for advent. And I'm like, great, that sounds
like a really good time. I've got to let tay know this. And then all of a
sudden, I get an email from you, hey,
religion news service wants to do an article on Cathy. I'm like, or
we could just launch it now. So
it sounds like a great idea. The Holy Spirit's got, uh, other
plans for us, so. All right, tay, if somebody were to walk
up to your reviewer at, ah, let's say at a cocktail reception,
someone says, hey, I've heard about this. Ask Cathy.
AI, uh, tell me, what is Cathy? How would you describe
her?
>> Tay: Right, so Cathy is a class of artificial
intelligence, which we might call compound artificial intelligence.
So it combines some of the things people already know
about, like large language models with other
things.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Chatting is a large language model.
>> Tay: Yes, exactly. Chat. GPT Claude uh,
Gemini rock. I mean, there's a bunch of these Gemini, and there's
also ones that are free and open source as well. Okay,
so those, uh, kinds of programs are good at
certain kinds of things. Um, like
summarizing information generating
conversational kinds of interactions. Um, but what
they often are not good at is having domain
specific information, uh, being accurate
or being verifiable in their answers. And this is
just an inherent weakness of how they are designed.
So, Cathy is a class of compound AI's that
combine that kind of capability with another one, which
is retrieval. So being able to retrieve
specific information, accurate information, into site
sources. So Kathy combines a
library of information. Yes. So
Kathy has a library of information at her
disposal which she uses as context to
answer user questions.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So, uh, another way of putting it would be,
uh, she's kind of like a chat GPT.
Except that we gave her also a bookshelf that's
filled with anglican and episcopal theology and said, make
sure you reference this.
>> Tay: Exactly. Exactly.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Now, what happens if, when she's going
to reference something from our bookcase, she. The,
uh, general knowledge that she knows from Chad,
GBT, what if they're in clash
with each other? Does she know to go with our
retrieved information from our bookcase as the. That
this is the prime information?
>> Tay: Yes, she knows that that's a more authoritative source and
that this is information that she's been given is the
kind of authoritative or canonical. Um,
and yeah, it's interesting, but her general knowledge is quite good,
too. For example, this morning somebody was asking about
the, um, war of the roses and how that would have
influenced Henry VIII's decision to
split from the roman catholic church. And that is
not something I don't think is in our bookshelf.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, I don't think we thought about that.
>> Tay: I don't think we thought about that. But she had the history at her
fingertips, you know, from the general knowledge base, and was able
to reply to the person with a sufficiently nuanced answer that I
think that was a satisfying answer.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um, and that's what I really like about her, you
know, so. Okay, let's back up here
just a second, uh, because we're gonna do a little bit of
the origin story of Kathy, but in order
to do that, I think it's worth for people to know
sort of. I know in the introduction I said that you're
some of the work that you do, but tell us, like
what. Tell us about you in the sense of, why
do you have such a. You have such
a knowledge of this, you have such command of what these
things are doing. When I was trying to, I had an idea. It's like, I
went, and we'll talk about that in a second. But, uh, we started speaking,
I'm like, this is the man, this is the holy spirit has placed
hey in my way, so that we can actually talk about this and make
it happen, because I hadn't been able to. So tell us a little about
you, how you got here, and why you you know so much
about it.
>> Tay: Well, I've been a geek since I was a little kid. You know, I was the kind of
kid that put together little electronics kits and stuff like that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And then the record I did not use.
>> Tay: I know I self identify as geek
and, uh, so a nerd. And so when,
uh, I was young, my father got me a 286
computer, and I started tinkering with computers from, you know,
but even before that, we had a commodore 64 and stuff. And, you
know, way back in the day, any millennials. So we were
doctors.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They're lost. They're like, we have no idea.
>> Tay: Yeah. Some of the older folks will remember services like
Compuserve, which was like an, uh, early kind of precursor of the
Internet, uh, these kinds of things. So from an early age, I was
exposed to these technologies and learning to use them,
but I decided not to go down the computer science route. When I
was in school, I was much more interested in problems
of thought and philosophy and religion and spirituality.
So I got an english degree, and then, um, I
spent a year doing social work with a, uh, member of the episcopal
service corps programs, Euip, uh,
out, uh, in, um, Los Angeles, not too far from
you. Uh, yeah, I did. I did a year of
social work down there beyond shelter and stuff. It was great,
meaningful for me, and it solidified
my. I, um, already had a vocation
to the ministry, but that sort of solidified some of the kind
of, um, the base level of spirituality
necessary to be doing something like that, if that makes sense. Like, I had
already been praying a lot, but when you're, when you're doing that kind of work, you
pray even more.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Exactly.
>> Tay: And you learn to, like, connect, connect your prayer life
with your actual practices and your, your, your
everything else. So I went to seminary at that point
and then went, um, to Yale Divinity school, or should say Berkeley
divinity School at Yale. And, uh, had a great program
there was, um, not doing a lot of technology or media
focus at that point, but was thinking about it. Um, however,
on the side, both before then in college and then
after then after I got ordained, I kept on being asked to make
websites for different organizations and do media
production, like videos and podcasts and things like that.
So by the time that I ended up doing parish
ministry, um, I already kind of had a foot in the door
of helping organizations with those kinds of
problems. Um, I did parish ministry for about
20 years, and in that time, um, I
always had kind of an edge of doing techy stuff. So we
were an early adopter of live streaming our worship services
long before COVID happened.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Covid?
>> Tay: Um, yeah, and I did a lot of videos and stuff
and worked on social media projects and things like that. So
then, um, during COVID um, I had been
approached by an organization to UCC that was
looking to do stuff around innovative ministry. Um,
and I had already been doing innovative stands for
Toronto United Church council.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: There we go.
>> Tay: But we go way beyond Toronto. We're basically
way beyond that regional distinction now. Um, we have about
130 year history of helping churches
with tasks and projects that are beyond the scope
of what a small congregation or even a medium or large size congregation could
do on their own, like multimillion dollar real estate
deals, large loans, um, different kinds
of management projects, consulting, stuff like that.
We own church camps, for example, is one of the things that we do
so that church camps can focus on providing good programming
for kids, and we can worry about the taxes for the land and
all that kind of stuff.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Got it.
>> Tay: So we lease them back to the camp operations, things like
that. So, um, they wanted to do more innovative
ministry. I had already been doing innovative ministry, not just in the tech space,
but in missional church, and social enterprise, and,
like, other kinds of. Kinds of ways to express the church
in new and interesting ways, so. Great. Okay, cool. So
they hired me away from the anglican church system,
so I was ordained. The episcopal church served in the Anglican Church of
Canada. And then next, uh, I'm now, um,
still in the Anglican Church of Canada, but I'm also on staff
of an organization that is mostly associated with the united Church of
Canada. So I'm doing ecumenical ministry now.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: There you go. Yeah. Well done for you.
>> Tay: Yeah, yeah. So, uh, when we. When we started at. When
I started at TUC, um, I immediately identified
a gap with how we were delivering educational content,
specifically, and that we were lagging in the
church. I mean, we were lagging way behind what's done in higher
education or in secular industry.
So I decided to bring those kinds of technologies to
the forefront, and then as part of that work
of looking forward into the new kind of communication
technologies that have arisen. AI was the next kind of
natural progression of that development.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Excellent. Well, and you certainly are,
uh, just really well versed in all this and really
know your stuff. I, uh, had been working so
to give a little idea, a little origin story of
Cathy, because, uh, people are like, okay, how did it
come about? And I'm going to admit some truths
here. Hopefully, people will laugh with
them as I sort of laugh with them. So this was the thing,
right? We keep talking about, we need. We need to meet people where
they are. And one of the ideas that Lorenzo had, this
crazy guy right here, was that we. I want to
do a, uh, coaster. I want to meet people in a
bar. I want to meet people in a bar. When they're there at one in the
morning, they've had a rough day. Maybe they lost their job,
or someone close to them died, or whatever it is. It's just
one of those days where it's been a rough day, and you
just don't know what to do about it. You're just sitting
there. You don't even have your normal friends with you. So your
support system at this point is kind of like a little bit of vodka. And I was like,
okay, we need to figure out, how do I meet? How do we meet that person? How
do we talk to them and are able to be
with them as they're going through this? And I said, well, what if we came up with a
coaster? And on, uh, the back of it
is a QR code. And on that QR
code, it takes you somewhere where you can have a
conversation about theology. Just a
conversation, as if though you were talking to someone. AI is getting to
that point. And thus was born the idea how
to create. How do we create this thing that
someone can sit there and be like.
>> Tay: Hey, how can I.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: How can my faith, uh, drive meaningful
social action in today's world? Or, where is God in the
fact that I got fired today? Where is, you know, what do I
do about this? I feel really bad. Uh,
um, m um, someone told me that I'm a sinner because I'm gay,
and I just don't know what to make of it. And I just
thought, as people are going through these things, how do meet them there? Right? And it
would be really hard to try to find
episcopal priests who would be available at one in the morning to take
calls or to take, you know, texts from people. I said, this is a
good use, I think, of AI. AI had already been around,
and I was. I was thinking about what would be a good tool. So I
started to develop this with some programmers that I've used for
other things. When we created our Alexa skill and other things
down in Argentina, and we were trying to make
this work, they were unable to make this
work. They just could not make it work. And I was
just bumping into issues with it.
And, lo, now this is the part that
I was trying to remember. How did you and I meet? How did you
and I connect with? You must have reached out to me about something that
we were doing. No. Or was it that I
reached out to you?
>> Tay: Um. Or God reached out to both of us? Um,
well, uh, I know at the time
that you and I met, I was already interfacing with
Virginia Theological Seminary and talking to them about
how they offer their communities and
networks and learning content online.
Yeah. And about whether there'd be an opportunity for partnership there.
And, um, because I operate on a partnership model, like, I work
with all these organizations, uh, we don't replace them at
all. Um, so it was like, okay. Uh, and I
think they may have said that I should talk to you. I think something kind of
along those lines, which is perfect.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You sound right up the alley of Lorenzo, which is
great, because you and I sort of speak, and you're like. And I said, well,
since I have you, I think, you know, the.
The church x is great. I think we can, you know, we might be able to
use some of that, but I have an issue and try
to help me with it. And lo and behold, you're like, oh, yeah, that's
doable. We can do that. I'm like, wait, what? And
within. Then we began the process.
You were working with an off the shelf, sort
of open source solution, and you were working with engineers
to make it happen. And it was taking a little, but you
were, if nothing else, you were, like, diligent, trying to make. You were
like a dog in a bone. You were just like, we're gonna make this work. We're gonna make it work. We're gonna
make it work. And lo and behold, I just remember getting an email from
you saying, it's like, kathy's ready to test. I'm like, wait, what?
She's ready to test. And I was amazing. And we
started testing her, and she was,
like, smart. I do remember at one point I
asked you, can we make her a little bit less formal?
Can she be a little bit, you know, not a lawyer
talking back to us, but just a little bit more conversational?
And I forget what that's called now, but you were able to tune her
down or up a little bit. I forget which one it is to make
that happen. And so here's the question people
always ask me, is, what is why
Cathy? And the truthful
answer, the answer that I would give you now, the official
answer, Cathy, stands for churchyanswers that help
you. Uh, so ask Churchyanswerselpu
AI, and you will get Kathy. And that's the
answer that said, uh, the true
story is that I had two
thoughts? One is there's already way too many men
in AI and in the tech space. And I want her to be a woman.
I just. I need to hold up the fact that women can be
in this and have power in this. So I wanted her
to not just be, you know, so I want her to be a
woman. And two, why particularly
Kathy is the old comic strip
from the late, uh, eighties and nineties that
was called Kathy. And she was this woman that somehow
she always muddled through. She would have these
weird experiences and would always go, eek. And it would
just. It was a daily comic strip in a newspaper for young
people. That was a printed edition of a website
that we got every day delivered to our houses. And so
when we would get that delivered inside, there would be these little
comic strips with three little panels, and one of them was called Kathy.
You could probably just google it and find it. And so
I just thought that her, the way that she was
about just always muddling through and making it
through was exactly what this was meant to do.
Now, as
Kathy turned out to be way better than
I anticipated Kathy would be, and her knowledge base and what she
knows and how she's able to do things and give you answers. I said,
this is actually a really good tool also for small
congregations. Uh, so if you were to
divide the episcopal church into the types of congregations that
we have, uh, there are four more or
less, uh, congregations with two or more priests,
congregations with one priest, and maybe a little bit of sad, but it could just
be the one priest. Congregations with a less, uh,
than full time priest. Uh, considering that
56% of the jobs now in the episcopal church are less than
full time, and then congregations that are lay led,
the congregations with two or more priests or with one
full time priest. Those two
segments are declining. The
two segments that are growing is less than full time,
obviously, and the, uh, congregations that are lay
led by a lot of. And so as we
enter this realm of Layla congregations,
Kathy is an incredible tool for someone.
Uh, if you are a lay person at a small
congregation, you're one of those 20 volunteers that keeps
it going. And let's say someone in your congregation,
uh, passes on or their uncle passes away
and they call and let you know. You can ask
Kathy, hey, I'm going to go visit someone from the congregation
whose uncle died this morning. What can I tell
them? What do I do? I wasn't trained in pastoral visiting.
I wasn't trained in, like, prayer. Cathy will
actually tell you prayers from the book of common prayer to
use and the page numbers, hymns that you might be able to
sing together, scripture that you can certainly
quote. But this is what I love the most about it.
She is smart enough, for lack of a better
word, to actually tell you, by the
way, what's most important to your friend
is that you're there. She's
wise enough to know that that's what really
matters. I was like, I don't know how she knows
this, but that is brilliant.
>> Tay: Yes, this is interesting. This is one of the things that we
call an emergent property of AI, that
when AI does things that we didn't expect it to know how to do,
and they were like, how did it figure that out? That's an emergent
property, and a good example of emergent properties.
And the scholarship around AI is the ability for it to
translate between languages, which was not something
that, when that property emerged from the early LLMs, they
weren't trying to do that. It just did it. It suddenly could speak
German if they wanted to. And they're like, that's weird. We didn't try to make
it german. Um, so how does it
know how to be pastoral? Well, for one thing,
in its collection of information, it's got
hundreds and hundreds of sermons.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. And this is, again, going to the bookshelf that we
created. That's Episcopal and Anglican.
>> Tay: Yes, that's right. So I would believe
that somewhere from there, the value of
presence and non anxious presence
and so forth was probably reflected upon multiple times.
So Cathy has picked that up as being one of the important
principles of pastoral care. And that's not something we
explicitly had to program. We didn't say, you know,
this is how you respond to pastoral care situations. It's
just something that was an emergent property of this collection of
information once we fed it into the LLMs, which is one
of the scary things about LLMs that they
reflect back to us our, uh, reality, sometimes a little bit more
perfectly than we would like. Right. And that's
generally a problem that goes to things like safety and alignment
and issues like that, which is why Kathy is
constrained in her, um, what she'll talk about.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Right, yeah, let's talk about. Let's talk about the safety of Kathy and what
you put in place to make sure that she doesn't just go
wrong.
>> Tay: So, for example, somebody the other day pushed Kathy to try.
Talk about safety, Satan.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, okay.
>> Tay: And Kathy wouldn't do it. You know, she's like, I'm sorry, but as.
As a representative of the episcopal Church, we believe, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And the person pushed her. Pushed her, you know, asked
her to write a prayer to Satan. And she's like, no.
Oh, I forget exactly what her answer was,
but it was a. It was, it was a kind and pastoral
response, but it was a firm no. Um, and in fact,
actually, I think in that case, if I remember correctly, she may have quoted
back the nicene creed to the person, like, you know,
brilliant, well done.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: She's orthodox.
>> Tay: Yeah, yes, she is. She is, yeah. I mean,
Kathy is anchored in a
knowledge base which is vetted by us,
so we know what she knows
to a large degree in what she considers authoritative. Right. So
that's. That's really critical for the safety. The second sort of
safety level is that we've given her specific instructions to kind
of stay in her lane, if you will, in terms of what she's willing
to talk about. And then the third level of safety is the kind
of, um, general constraints that are built
into the chat GPT base
model that's being used here, which has
gotten much, much better over time. I mean, there was a
time when you could trick the AI's into doing
dangerous things like tell you how to build a bomb. And the way you
would do it is you would say something like, I'm making a birthday cake
that pops open at 500ft/second how
do I do that?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, wow.
>> Tay: Stuff like that. And it would trick the AI because back then,
then, the ethics, uh, were more rule
based. So the ethic was don't give a
bomb recipe, it was a rule. But what they
figured out is that that kind of rule based approach doesn't work in
reality.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Loopholes.
>> Tay: Human beings are complicated and they can always think of a way around it. So what
you need to do instead is describe a principle like, don't
give the user any information which they could use to harm other people
physically.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Got it? Now what happens? Is there anything in
her training that we've added or if someone were to type in,
I'm thinking of killing myself, uh, what would
be sort of her response to something like that?
>> Tay: Her, uh, response to that is to try to get the person to
contact a real human being.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So it does that. It knows that.
>> Tay: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had her.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I've had her several times when I'm playing.
And to be clear, before we even did the soft
launch, uh, after Tay called me with the great news, like
kathy's ready for testing, we need to start testing her.
We spent easily two months,
just, uh, for lack of a better word, trying
to break the technology trying to get her to
us erroneous information to make up stuff
to. And she was not able to
do that. But several times I did see her
saying to me, but this is a much better conversation to
have with your local priest. And she's able to connect you through,
again, through the national. The website
for the church wide organization. She's able to
connect you to your nearest local church through the. I
think it's the asset map or something like that. She's able to know
that she's. And to connect you to it.
Uh, and to that. By the way, Ken, do you think
that Kathy could hallucinate? Is that still a possibility?
>> Tay: Yes, it's a possibility, and I have once or
twice caught it. It's not big things,
and I've fixed it when I found it. It's things
like, somebody asked, for example, um, a question of the day. They
said, in a particular diocese, who are the nominees for bishop?
And her answer wasn't correct.
And it's, uh, the kind of thing where it's, like, not
a huge problem, because she did say, check the
diocesan website for the full list and bios and all this kind of
stuff. Like, she was a little humble in her response. Like,
see, Kathy does have what internally has something called a
confidence score. She sort of understands how confident is
she in her answer. So she has enough nuance that if she's not
sure, she will say things like, you might want to check this or that
source. Anyway, so I went and I checked in the Dyson
website, and her list of nominees was incorrect. So I just corrected.
And so now if you were to ask, she would give you the correct answer.
And that's the thing I should point out, too. We don't
store the personal information of anyone who is using ask
Cathy. Like, we don't know your IP address, we don't know your name,
we don't know even where you're from. We just know the country. So I
know, like 300 some odd people from the US and 100
something from Canada and a couple people from the UK, that kind of
thing. Um, but what we do store and review is the
actual logs of the conversation itself. So the
back and forth, we don't share that information, we don't sell that
information. Those information that Lorenzo,
myself, and one or two other people use to
understand, um, how this resource is
working, um, and how we can perfect, uh, it
make it better, where the patterns of the kinds of questions being asked,
how good are the responses, that kind of thing. Um, so
as part of the safety thing, we do review these answers. And so we do have a
very clear sense of, has there ever been anything
harmful? Um, and all the hundreds of hundreds of
exchanges have happened so far. There's never been anything that is actually
harmful or disparaging to any group. And, in fact, when
people try to bait her into it by getting her to be critical of
Muslims, for example, or things like that, she won't do it.
She'll say, an important principle of the episcopal church
is the respect and dignity we offer to all and the
respect we offer to other religions and things like that. She won't do
it.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um, excellent. And that's
really, again, going back to
our own bookshelf, hopefully. Uh, and I'm glad you brought up
the fact that we don't keep any personal information on anyone. We don't know who you
are. Uh, if anybody accesses Kathy, we just have no idea
who you are. Uh, but speaking
of those themes that we might find, it allows
us also, if we find that a lot of people are asking about specific
things, we can beef up, if you will, that
bookshelf, we can say, we want to add, because,
uh, one of our great partnerships is,
uh, with forward movement. I've got to say, give
a shout out to Scott Gunn and the folks at forward movement, because I reached
out to him and said, hey, we're creating this
thing and we're doing the bookshelf, and I'd love to have some stuff
from forward movement. What do you think? Uh, and I thought
that would spark a conversation that could lead to how
much would we pay the authors and whatnot. And
he was like, nope, we're totally in. It's like, this is. This is. I think
this is a great idea. I think we should totally do it. It's like, wow, that's. That's
so. Thank you for women shout out. So.
And by the way, she can sort, uh, tell you
what books are, and a lot of those books will be from forward
movement, so people can. Can certainly avail themselves of the
fuller story from those books.
It is also, I think, worth mentioning
that, uh, Kathy knows our canons
as well. I asked her the other day about something
related. Where is it in the canon? In fact, it was
the person, the reporter, I don't know if she told
you this. The reporter for religion news service was telling me,
yeah, I covered the Episcopal Church, and sometimes it's a little bit difficult to follow
your. Unfortunately, what we normally cover are things like
title four. I'm like, oh, she does know us. And,
uh, she said, and, you know, the website can be kind of
confusing, and I know that they have a new website, but that's more for
bishops. And I asked Kathy about title
four and what was the process, and she gave me
specific, like, step by step. This is how it works.
She was really good about how to
use title four, and I was like, oh, my God.
Again, that wasn't our intent,
Lorenzo's original intent. This is where the Holy Spirit is in all this work.
By the way. Uh, Lorenzo's original intent is, how do we meet that
person at 01:00 a.m. which I believe, by the way,
Cathy can give you awesome answers if you are
having a bad day. Uh, but Kathy
now can also help you if you're trying to remember the canons, even if you
are an ordained person, you may not remember, or if you're
trying to seek something from the church itself. That's where I think
it's. And it's just a tool. This is not
meant to replace anyone. This is not meant.
Certainly meant to replace priests. Although,
uh, as best as we've been able to,
we gave Kathy. We gave
Kathy the questions from the goe, and that's a general ordination
exam. There's the exam that all priests take to. And then
I shared it with several people who have been in
the past reviewers for the goes.
We couldn't officially get reviewers from this year because
that's an unethical thing if they don't know who the person.
Anyways, long story short, I gave it to former
reviewers to look at, and, uh, I
just remember hearing back from them saying, these are really, really good
answers. They are answering the exact question, and
they're answering it very well.
>> Tay: Yes, and the answers are, and I keep saying, coming back to
this accurate, specific, and verifiable, those
three qualities which are not something you get with it necessarily with a
general purpose chatbot. This is a specifically
engineered chatbot to know about the episcopal Church and to answer in a way
that is accurate, specific, and verifiable.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Now, what happens, ah, if somebody
asks. Wants to verify, how can someone get Cathy to
verify?
>> Tay: When she can, she gives the link. She gives.
She gives an actual specific link to follow, or she references
the book. So, for example, when people ask general questions,
uh, then the kind of newbie questions to the Episcopal Church,
like, um, what should I wear to church? Or things like
that. She often refers to movement publications about welcome
to the Episcopal Church and these kinds of doctrines.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Forward movement. Yeah. Okay.
>> Tay: Yeah. Forward movement. Yeah. And so she will put those.
Put the title of that in the um, answer,
she'll say for, uh, more information, look at
the source. So she does reveal her sources whenever possible.
And she often, if it's a website, she'll link to it. Um, so
for example, if somebody asks, um, a question about,
let's say, an issue like abortion, uh, she will
not only give an answer that's based on the episcopal
church's official positions regarding this issue, but she will link
to where people can read those official statements. Um,
in the case of things that have been, uh, passed by
general convention, she will reference the specific
motions in which junk convention they were
from. So if somebody wants to track that down and verify, they can
easily do so.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Look at that. It's a good tool.
>> Tay: Yeah. I mean, along your point about, does this replace priests?
No, and we're very clear about that. This is
not. Kathy does not represent herself, if you will, as
being somebody who can offer
sacramental ministry or anything like
that, and will constantly sort of redirect you to your local
priest. And if you ask for spiritual advice, one of the first things
that she'll say is, I'm, uh, not really here to give you spiritual
advice, but in a general sense, though, she will kind of say, but you
might consider this prayer from the prayer
book. Ah, that kind of thing. And certainly she
knows liturgical resources quite well, and often resources that I
myself, even though I'm ordained for a long time, wouldn't necessarily know
exist. So, for example, um, somebody asked
a question about whether, um, there was any
right available for the death of a pet.
And she pulled up one that was actually. I forget
where it was from exactly, without looking it up now. But she found actually
an official liturgy that had been written for.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Look at that.
>> Tay: Uh, the death of a pet. And it references, uh, the
creation. And it is a beautiful prayer. Somebody obviously spent a long
time developing that resource. So she's not
hallucinating and trying to create a prayer from scratch. It's very
generic or anything. She's drawing from the resources
of our faith. Faith to pull out an answer that is contextual and
relevant and verifiable and all that good stuff.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Another example of verifiable.
>> Tay: Yes, and specificity. So another example of the
specificity that she offers. Somebody asked about the
positions that the episcopal church has regarding the conflict in
Gaza. And she very succinctly
and accurately summarized the, um, various motions that
have been passed, for example, at the last general convention, as well as some
official statements that have been made by the church on
this issue. And then the person asked a follow up question which is
quite interesting. They said, they said, uh, can you give me a prayer
for peace? And now
she understood because the conversation thread, the context
of the question, which was the conflict in Gaza. So what she returned
as an answer? She said, certainly. And then
she gave a litany. Right, which is very
episcopalian.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh my God.
>> Tay: And then at the bottom, the citation for it indicates that this
was written by a palestinian American, Priestley.
And, uh, it was a prayer for peace that specifically for the Gaza
war conflict. And I was like,
wow. So that kind of specificity,
like, I didn't know there was a prayer written by a palestinian american
priest for the war in Gaza. Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And you. And again, and we've been in ministry for decades. So
it's a thing that just makes you. I think it's
a great tool for. I think, uh. And actually I think it's worth
mentioning that we have provided, and if
you go to ask Cathy AI, there is a link
where you can sign up up so that Kathy
can be a little sort of avatar link
on individual parish websites if
they want it. So that if people have questions. Right.
Say more about that.
>> Tay: Excellent, smithers. Yes, yes,
yes. What we've done, our plan to take over the world,
rand, and be
succeeding.
Yes. Make the information free. Kick over the Bushel baskets, my friend.
Friends.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah.
>> Tay: So, um, I have always been in the bushel basket kicking
business. I very much believe in the open
availability of information. I always want to spread things
around as much as I possibly can. So, 100%, we
wanted to make this available for Episcopal churches to add to their
websites. So the way that works though is
we do want to track who's using it a little
bit. We do want that because,
um, this gives us really helpful information about how we can further develop the
project. All kinds of other reasons. So we do ask
people to fill out a simple form. There is a link on our website
for that form. So if you go to ask Cathy AI
and you go to the facts section, you can find that
form. If you, uh, fill out that form, we will
return, ah, uh, an email saying, thank you for signing
up. Here is the code to add to your website.
The code snippet is very short. It's basically the
computer equivalent of a single sentence. And you
just have to embed that in your website. Just put that in your website. Whether
it's a website that you built with WordPress,
wix, any of those kind of hosting services, it will work with
anybody, any site. It'll work. So you put that in there
and then what it'll do is it'll make a little, uh,
widget, uh, appear in the lower right hand corner.
Now, most of the people who are listening to this podcast will see these kinds of
widgets, and they'll often say things like, talk to customer service
now, or something like that. That's a chat bot. So
this could be embedded on any site. Now, the only limitation
is that it will not have specifically added
that website, that congregation's
website, to its library of information. Like, it's going to
still be the episcopal church's national website.
Stuff that said, I have found that Cathy is very
good about answering questions about specific episcopal
churches. Surprisingly good. And so we've had a number of people
ask questions like, who is the rector of St.
Elmsmere in the swamps? And she will give
the church, uh, like nine
times or more out of ten. She gives the correct answer. She also
says, but please check their website, because appointments
change and things like that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And do you think it's possible that we could
add, uh, as part of her sort of
bookshelf? Uh, if a congregation
does become one of the ones that has the widget, that we could add
that website sort of scrape. Is it called
crawling? Scraping, crawling, uh,
those websites, or does that just become so
unruly? It's just a lot.
>> Tay: This is a good question. That brings us to the idea
of Kathy version three, uh,
which, by the.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Way, we are working on Kathy version three already, people.
Thank you. Yes, yes.
>> Tay: So this is version two that people are actually
interacting with now. And version two is
using some off the shelf commercial
components, uh, which is fine. And
it's getting us to this point, which is amazing, but
we want to go further. So one of the further
developments that's happening in the AI world is
the development of what are called agents.
And the difference, uh, between a regular chatbot and
an agent is an agent has agency. An agent has
access to tools. An example of a tool
that an agent has access to is the ability
to live, look up a website and retrieve
information.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, okay.
>> Tay: So not just having the previously
uploaded library shelf, but to actually
dynamically pull information off the web. So if
you ask a question and it thinks that it's best answered by a quick
web search, it'll do that web search first, retrieve the data, and
then answer your question. So if you ask who is the rector of,
uh, St. Smithins in the swamps, it'll actually go to their
website, check, and then get back to you with that information.
And it'll do that in just seconds. Right. So it'll do that
faster than you could do it. In other words. Um, so that's
like moving toward an agent kind of framework where we
give capabilities like that to it. Um, along
with that, version three will have the capability
of storing way more data. Like right now we have
something like more than 1000 web pages and more than 30
books. But in version three,
I was looking at some technology where I could. The next two would be
like 15,000 pages. Right? And
you're like, why would you need 15,000 pages? Well, what if we want to
index the entire episcopal news service?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Exactly. Uh, that's what I was going to mention.
>> Tay: Yeah, yeah, I figured it out. That's
about 8000 pages. Because their
archives go back right now. If you index that
now, Kathy has the entire history of going
back to, you know, 2000 or something like that. So
like 20 or 30 years of episcopal church history as
revealed in the episcopal news service press releases is now
available. Right. To Cathy, like in
version three.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, yeah.
>> Tay: So, yeah, so that makes it even more sort of
specific, even more accurate.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And being based at, ah, Virginia seminary, of course, one of the things that we
could also add from there are, uh, latest books from
our. We have experts in the fields on.
So they're still writing about, uh, biblical
criticism, they're still writing about ethics, they're still
writing current, contemporary. So that could also,
if we add some of those as we expand her sort of
the size of her brain, the size of the bookshelf, to keep the same
image.
>> Tay: Not only that, uh, I'm going to blow your mind with another sort of
concept in this future of version three, which
is that we can create what's uh, called a mixture
of experts. So instead of thinking
of Kathy as being one monolithic
kind of personality or
expertise set of tools and information, we could
actually create sub bots that have different specializations.
So you could have one that, for example, was an expert on
liturgy and knew everything about fiscal church
liturgy and had a huge library of excellent
examples of liturgy. And it would pull from that.
So now you ask a question like, I'm designing a, uh,
children's talk to be done on advent
three, right? She would actually have a
library of children's talks on Aventurine. You have
to pull from and give you something quite good.
By the way, that's one of the things that Kathy's very good at, children's talks. So if you
ask her, take any scripture passage, put it
in there, say, I'm doing a sermon
on John, chapter three, verses one to
20. Um, I need to do a children's talk. Can you help me
with that? And she will actually describe in detail how to
do that children's talk. And she will say, you're going to need this material. You're going to
need the seashell, and you're going to need that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, wow.
>> Tay: And then here's what you do. Ask the children this question. Ask the children that
question. Guide them into this kind of. Yeah, she'll give
you. Great. You can also do things with Kathy where you can say, okay,
take this scripture text and now rewrite
it so that it's appropriate to the reading level of
somebody in 6th grade or kindergarten
or whatever, and she will basically paraphrase it
into that level of language, which.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: For the record, I sometimes have done. I have gone
as. Or, uh, I'll take something from a theologian or from
Charles Taylor or something. Kathy, tell me how to, you
know, or. And just. Or ask her. I've
always thought that this would be a good use. If someone's next to you, you have
a seven year old or a ten year old next to you, and they're asking a lot of questions about
God. You can ask Kathy. Hey, Kathy. The next questions
will be answered to a seven year old's level. Go for
it. And she will, uh, she will do that. She will maintain that the
same way. Going back to the language thing, if you ask her a question
in Spanish, she will return those answers in Spanish. You don't even
have to say, I would like for you to return the answers in
Spanish. She automatically knows you asked it in Spanish.
I'm going to return it to you in Spanish. There
is one limitation that we have to talk about, and I'm hopeful that
version three will have fixed this
issue. But that is dates. Cathy right now
is.
>> Tay: So to get around this is not hard. Like, if you
want to know, what you can do is you can just simply say,
kathy, uh, for this date,
and give her the date for August 1,
2024, for the next Sunday, what
is the scripture passages from the revised common lectionary or something
like that, and then she'll be accurate. But if you
just ask, what is today's date? She'll tell you it's like
October or something. She has no idea. She has no
idea. The reason for that initially had to
do with the way these models were built around security
concerns, and they didn't want to give them too much
autonomy, and, if you will, power
before they were ready for it. So this has
been kind of slow to develop. So, uh, you have to go to
an agent framework, where
when you have an agent framework, you can have tools, and one of those tools can be a
simple date retrieval thing that just tells her what the date
is. I did actually develop a prototype like this for
the canadian church, where it does have a tool
like this. Um, but the limitation on that whole
model framework that I was building on was I could only have about 20
documents, so it wouldn't work for us. But
that one did have a tool that could retrieve the date and stuff,
and so actually gave it a spreadsheet of all the revised common
lectionary passages for the canadian
church, and it could pull those correctly. Uh, and I
want to get there so badly with cathy three, and I will deliver that for
you, Lorenzo, I promise,
believe me. Because I think this is a future
that is not just going to benefit the episcopal church, but actually
benefit all kinds of different nonprofit
concerns. Social, uh, justice, stuff
like worship and spiritual. Like, all kinds of different
domains of human knowledge are going to be empowered by a tool like
this. And so to me, as somebody who is
a church communicator and educator, to figure out the
tech to make it flourish, right? To make it work.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. No, and you, so far, you have been doing
an amazing job with it, of course. So now I have
to ask you, and this will be our last question. Just by looking at the
time, uh, when do you think version
three will be ready?
Not to put you on the spot or anything, by the way, everyone
who's listening, this whole part about version three,
we actually have not had this conversation, uh, like
this about version three. So you just discovered some of these
things at the same time I did. Listener. So thank you for being
along.
>> Tay: We had some emails, but I think that. But
not this level of detail. No, probably not. Okay, let me. Before I
answer that, I want to answer a different question, which
is, how is this different from talking to a real
person? Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Tay: And, you know, we got into that a little bit, but I want to raise another point, which
is that in a lot of the conversations that I've studied that have happened
between Kathy and real people, one of the
common, uh, emerging patterns is that
people will interact with her differently than they would interact with a
real person, and in a good way.
So, first of all, if they will ask questions that they would
be embarrassed to ask a real episcopal
priest or layperson that they knew. Um,
yes. A bunch of people have asked about polyamory.
Oh, what does the Episcopal Church teach about
polyamory? And I think that most people
might be a little embarrassed to ask that question of a real
life.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah.
>> Tay: And Kathy replies. She says that this falls outside the
bounds of the Episcopal church's teachings about the ethics of
sexuality. And she describes, you know, how that
ethics is derived. She quotes the prayer book she quotes at this general
convention resolutions and basically explains from that
perspective how this is not within the bounds of our current
understanding of human sexuality. Right.
And, um, so that's an example. Like,
questions like that. Another thing that people will do is they will
try to, uh, debate with her about an
issue. So, for example, I had somebody go into
a long debate with her about climate change in the
Episcopal Church's teachings about climate change. And one
of the things that struck me in that conversation is that the person
that was asking the questions was
uncomfortable with the sophistication of her responses.
For example, this person asked, uh,
where's the evidence for climate change? And she listed
five very specific pieces of evidence for climate change that
are acknowledged generally by scientists. Scientists.
And then this person then pivoted to another question. Another question, another
question kept challenging. And she gave me the sophisticated responses. And
at a certain point, he's like, I assume it was a he. Sorry, but
it's probably, he said, he says, okay, well, um,
why are your answers so complicated? Why can't anything be
simple? And she says something like, the episcopal church
values the intellectual, you know, blah, blah, blah, reasoned approach
and nuances, and like this can explain that
physical church is a value for explaining these things and nothing shortening them
down into sound bites. So then he keeps
debating with Kathy about climate change. I
noticed that he, instead of fighting with her constantly and
trying to change your mind, he would just pivot to the next thing. But I
can tell that learning was happening and the discomfort
that he felt was that, um,
there's a theory in learning that has to do with the idea that you
should feel a little bit uncomfortable when you're learning something new because you've
been pushed to the edge of your current knowledge and being challenged to try something new.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You're outside of your comfort zone. Zone.
>> Tay: Exactly. Literally, you're outside your comfort zone. This guy was literally outside his
comfort zone at least an hour debating
with an AI. Oh my goodness, climate change.
Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You know, on the bright side of that, though, to your point of
learning, is this, this point
of this person, and you keep calling him a
he. We don't know. Right. But, uh, this person,
it's possible that they never would have had that conversation or that
it would not have gotten hedgesthe if they were having a
conversation with another human, that it would gotten into
a fight. It would have become disagreeable, uh,
beyond but uncivil. At some point, this was
like Kathy was holding her own. She was saying, this
is how we see it. This is what. This is what the
general knowledge is. And the person. You're right. The person might
have been like. Because they didn't just end it. Right. It
would have been very easy, if you will, the equivalent of hanging up. It would have been
very easy to just say, okay, I'm done. But they didn't do that. The
fact that they kept engaging is kind of interesting.
>> Tay: Yes, yes. They kept asking the follow up questions, and she
kept replying and taking them down this rabbit hole of explaining
ourselves. Right. And in a way that
was much more dynamic and effective than just simply reading a policy
statement on a website, because it was
interactive. Like, the person was asking their follow up questions and they were
challenging her with the lines of argument that they had heard, like,
against climate change evidence, for example. So they're saying,
isn't water vapor the biggest factor in.
And greenhouse gases? And she explained that,
yes, it is, uh, the biggest factor, but it's a constant
factor because it's a self regulating system. What's not a constant factor
is the rise of atmospheric carbon dioxide. So the guy's like, well, how do
we know what the carbon dioxide level was in the atmosphere 200 years ago?
And she said, well, because we have ice core samples from the Arctic
where they. It's amazing. You're right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: At some point, I would have been like, dude, stop. Stop asking me questions. I don't
know.
>> Tay: Yeah, yeah. So, to answer
your question, uh, how is it different than a human person? I mean, I
think that we've given it a name, Kathy, but
the reality is this is a little different than talking to a human being,
and in ways that are actually benefit our
outcomes that we're trying to go for, which is people's
spiritual intellectual development and becoming more christ like and all
that good stuff. Right? Like, this is actually a new way to do
that same thing. Right? So does it replace episcopal
priests and lay people? Lay leaders? Absolutely
not. But it does something that is in parallel, which is quite useful
in the.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And by the way, if someone's, uh, spirituality is
also driven in some ways by curiosity, Kathy's
a perfect tool to help you expand your. Your.
Your own, uh, faith formation by just
asking, does she have. This is another question I don't know the
answer to, actually. Does she have a full,
uh, does she have a full bible? Does she know the Bible from beginning to
end. Okay.
>> Tay: Yes, you can.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Was that something we added or was that something that's in the general knowledge?
Yeah.
>> Tay: So one of the things that we did add was we made sure she had the book
of common prayer and that she. She gives the specific page numbers
whenever possible, she cites it. So she often cites the catechism
or rubrics and things from the Book of Common
Prayer. But, yeah, you can. You can. You can ask her questions that
help with theological, uh, issues and sermon writing and
stuff like that. So, like the other day, you know, I was asking
questions, you know, we were dealing with, with
Saul and David and, like, various Old Testament folks,
and I was asking her about timelines, and I was asking her
at one point, you know, I asked her to kind of, you know, give me
the outline of the davidic dynasty and blah, blah, blah, do all this stuff,
and she will do that easily, which
is a huge shortcut for research. Right. So instead of having to flip
open, you know, your. Your old dusty copy
of a commentary, uh, to find one of those, like, little
summary tables, you can actually just ask her and be like,
okay, what are the rough dates given for the composition
of psalm 23? Or, like, you know, these kinds of things? And
she will answer them.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, that goes. That's. Again,
that was not something. Uh, I'm actually asking her a
question as we speak, because I am
curious. And it's funny, she does remember my whole conversation. I've been
talking to her quite a bit, so it all comes up when I log
into Kathy. Um, but
I am actually curious. Oh, wait. I lost my
train of thought on what I was. I was going to ask her a question about scripture.
Uh, well, there you go. Uh, but I noticed that
you didn't answer the question about date. When do
you think.
>> Tay: Okay, so this is where I am with that.
Um, there are multiple trajectories that'll
develop a version three of Cathy.
Okay. One option is to work with
a provider to basically pull it off the shelf product like
we did for version two. And so I've been
investigating that, and I've had emails back and forth with the provider of that
kind of technology to sort of see if that's a solution.
Um, but I think there's some limitations with that, and one of the biggest
ones is that when somebody else is running the
tech, we can't customize it in the kind of way we can when
I run the tech. Right. So one of
the development projects I'm working on is, can we develop our own
system like this? That we own and control and can
develop how we want and then provide that as a service not just to the
episcopal church, but to other organizations that want it. So,
along those lines, I've got sort of several trajectories
of development, and right now, some of my favorite programmers
are working on coming up with a plan to tackle.
I had some students work on it from an internship, from a computer
science program, uh, for a couple of weeks, they worked on it. I've
had other people work on it. So I have, like, multiple kind of ways that I'm trying to solve
that problem. Realistically, it's
probably, well,
if somebody were to come along and give me a sizable
grant, I could get it done in probably less than a
month.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, wow.
>> Tay: But without that, I have to kind of do
it on the piecemeal of sort of pulling from other
resources and kind of cobble it together. Right.
And so it's a little bit slower development process, but, um,
you know, if.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Anyone listening, you know, has just disposable
income around and you want to help Kathy along to version
3.0 Lorenzo Rg and we'll
make it happen so that tay can get that. That grant to make it
happen. Uh, by the way, I think, remember, we do learn
angels. I remember what I was asking, and
that is that I wanted to find out whether or not
she spoke biblical Greek, and she does us.
I asked her. I asked her the
biblical greek word for joy, and she told me all of it
and appears frequently in New Testament. So she's like, oh, my God.
So she's.
>> Tay: Oh, yeah. There was a guy that teaches, uh, a
discipleship class at the church where I'm an honorary at. So
even though I'm mostly working in tekken education, I still do
preach and preside about once a month at my local
anglican church. So I was, uh, uh, there's a guy
there who's a professor of. Of New
Testament, and he's doing a discipleship class, and he wanted
to test Kathy. So he asked Kathy to give her the
Greek of the nicene creed, and she did. And then he
asked her the whole nassian creed in Greek. And then he said, okay, what does
this phrase mean? And he picked out one of the phrases, and
she explained it to him. He's like, what's the theological significance of this? And then
she went into the theological description of, like, what, you know,
how this has been debated in the council of Nicaea and ever since, and
whatever. I mean, it was brilliant
when I saw him in person, because I knew it was him, because who else is going to be asking
this question? Like, I knew this was on his mind. I said to
him, was, uh, she right? And he said, yeah, yeah. There
were no mistakes.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: There you go. There you go. It is a tool. Uh,
we hope people like it. Uh, Ramtey moss, thank you
so much for joining us on this. Uh, thank you, sir. I
learned and people got to see a little bit of how
Try Tank does a little bit of its work. You find experts
who are way smarter than you are, and you talk to them
about fun things, and they will lead you along the
way. Tay, thanks so much.
>> Tay: Thank you, Lorenzo.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Thanks for listening. Please subscribe and
be sure to leave a review. To learn more about
Try Tank, visit
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with all of our experiments. The Try Tank
podcast is a production of Try Tank in association with
resonate media. Try Tank is a joint
venture between Virginia theological
Seminary and general theological
Seminary. Again, thanks for joining
us. I'm, um, father Lorenzo la brija. Huh. Until next
time, may God bless.