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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
A subject which is often left out
when we're dealing with our field is
seniors, aging, dementia, Alzheimer's
strokes even just making life
better for people who, as they age.
And W- addressing the
stigmas around it all.
So much of what we do tends
to be aimed at young people.
Obviously I started with
kids 'cause it was my son.
And then from there I transitioned
naturally into young adults
'cause my son got older.
And then of course I transitioned from
there into working with first responders,
and adult autists, and v- veterans, and
because, you know, just went fromâ¦
But these are all people to some
degree in the prime of life.
We really do have, in Western culture, a
real lack of value placed on our elders,
which is a bit nuts really because they're
the people who've got all the knowledge.
So just as someone sort of gets to
the point where they've got all that
stuff to help us out, we put them in a
parking house with old people parking
put on it, and I don't think that
that is to the benefit of our society,
and many other societies in the world
do not do this because they know
that that's a complete and s- almost
irresponsible waste of human resources.
Okay.
So I- I've got some people who
are specialists in this field.
We've got Paula Hertel, and we've got
Nancy Shire Anselmo who are both with
Connected Horse, but they both have
a really solid background in this
this field that we're talking about.
So, Nancy is a gerontologist.
W- those who don't know what a
gerontologist is it makes you
think it's someone who knows
about people called Gerald.
But no, ⦠it's, it's about
the, the, the medicine of aging.
She's a doctor.
And this is a specialist form
of med- of medicine, as we know.
Nancy, you started as a social worker
but you've v- been a consultant, senior
living consultant for many, many years.
You're both on the board for
the California Association
for Assisted Living.
You, I know Nancy, you've been 30 years
in the field as a gerontologist, and
you've come together to create Connected
Horse around this unrepresented field.
And then Kansas, who I'm just a big fanboy
of in general comes in with a lot of
knowledge specifically about heart math
and about how, gosh, the heart and the
neurons around the heart affect the brain.
And that this, of course, is as
relevant to an aging population as it
is to a younger population in terms
of quality of life and outcomes.
We're also so used to thinking of
outcomes as something for the young,
and then by the time you reach a
certain age, well, then you'veâ¦
you're outed and you've
comed.
Or you, you've gone and
you came or whatever it is.
But to, I- I didn't, that didn't
come out very well, did it?
But nonetheless we seem to
sort of get consigned to the to
the, to the irrelevance bucket.
And this is, this is, this is again
to the detriment of our society.
So thank you guys very much for coming on.
That was a long preamble, but I wanted
people to really understand, you know, the
value of, of, of why you're doing this.
Would, would either one of you like to
kick off with what is Connected Horse?
You know, what services do you offer?
How do you do it?
What, what can we learn from this?
Whichever one of you
wants to jump in first
Paula Hertel: I'll jump in.
I think,
Rupert Isaacson: Except for Kansas.
Anyone- ⦠except for
Kansas could ⦠Okay, yeah.
Go on.
Paula Hertel: We've learned so much
for Kansas, from Kansas, just in terms
of how you show up for each other,
for horses for yourself and the world.
So we'll, we'll give her,
Rupert Isaacson: All right, Kansas
⦠Paula Hertel: her time.
For Connected Horse, it really
is this opportunity for people
to be connected with horses.
We've chose to work with older adults
that are living with dementia or memory
loss and their care partners together,
and have been doing this work for
over 10 years, started in research.
And it's taken us as many years
to try to explain what we do, and-
Mm-hmm ⦠we still fall short, 'cause
it is about the experience, showing up
with our participants in, with horses
in a beautiful place in nature and
holding space for people to connect.
And as we get through this, this podcast,
we'll talk a little bit more around
the details of it, but it is about
holding space for people to connect with
one another and connect with horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
Of course, I was being completely
flippant when I said anyone but Kansas.
Of course, Kansas, I
wanted you-
to
dive in, so apologies for that.
Kansas, you were gonna
kick off there, so do tell.
What were you going to say?
I was,
Kansas Carradine: I was really
gonna say that m- I was excited to
connect you with Connected Horse,
because they have connected so many
like a wider field of demographics
in this equine-assisted world.
You know, I jumped into it in
2008, and I was contacted around,
I think around 2022 by one of the
volunteers who work with Paula and
Nancy in this incredible program.
And I got it right away because ex-
of exactly what you said, Rupert.
We know about the benefits for veterans,
for kids, for those with physical or
mental disabilities autism trauma.
We talk about all of this so much,
but I had never heard anyone really be
focusing with our seniors and our elders.
And it got my attention, and right
away I said, "I wanna do anything that
I can do to help you make your, make
your work known, make this organization
known," and then I've been able to see it
expand and, and also come to some of the
workshops that Paula and Nancy facilitate.
And the one thing that I really took
away is the environment that you
create, that failure-free environment
for both the individual with the
diagnosis as well as the caregivers.
Paula and Nancy, it's just exceptional,
because it's really the field environment
that has so much real deep care- And
compassion and really heart into, into
it with the horses also facilitating.
And it's magic.
And I said, "This needs to be
front page news because of the
outcomes as well that we've seen."
And I'll let Nancy explain some
of those things that- Okay ⦠are
just really important for, for
the equine and human relationship
Rupert Isaacson: So that's
a good cue for you, Nancy.
What, what are the outcomes?
And- Well, we-
also, why did you get into this?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: We got into
this because Paula and I have worked
with older adults and families for
many years, and people are getting
diagnosed earlier and earlier with
neurocognitive disorder of some sort.
And and then there's not a lot of
resources besides, at that time in 2015
when we started, you know, what was common
to be heard was, "Well, get your affairs
in order, and here are some drugs, and,
you know, enjoy your life for a while,"
because this diagnosis from eight to
20 years, so that's a very long time.
And so we wanted to do something
unique and special because b- both
being equestrians and lifetime horse
women and having horses heal in
our own lives, we knew that there
was something really special there.
So we went to Stanford University, and we
raised the money to do the research with
one of the most foremost institutions
in the country for neuroscience, and we
partnered with the medical school and the
athletic school with the e- the Red Barn
Leadership Program which is the equestrian
team actually trains there at Stanford.
So there's amazing horses that are there,
and we really wanted the science because
we knew there was something there there,
if you will, but we wanted to have the
evidence-derived information behind it.
So we did our pilot, and what Stanford
affectionately called our Crazy Horse
project, because no one had ever done
this really with older adults, especially
those with a d- diagnosis of dementia,
and their family members together.
It's important to us that they were
together on this journey, just like you
were with your son, Rupert, and your wife.
Mm.
It's, it's a family, it's a family
journey that people are, are on
together with their loved ones.
And so we wanted them at the table,
where at that time it would be like,
"Well, you're the care partner.
You go over here, and you're
the person with the diagnosis.
You go over here."
So that was important to us
that we, we did that together,
and we wanted the science.
So Stanford designed the, the
studies with one of our board
members who is a geriatrician.
I'm actually a social scientist not
a physician, and we were looking for
more of a holistic approach for people
that were newly diagnosed to give
them tools to take on this journey.
And then we went to UC Davis, which is the
foremost veterinary school in the country,
number one in the United States, and we
partnered with their Alzheimer's Disease
Research Center, as well as the School
of Veterinary Medicine, to look at the
same science in a different environment
and to see what the results were.
And we- We're blown away because we
real- it's real exciting to see it
on the pre and post test, and
we had all these volunteers come
in, and we advertised in the
newspaper just like, "You guys
wanna be part of a cool new study?"
You know, and people are, "Oh
yeah, I'm either I'm terrified
of horses or I'm really excited
to have horses back in my life."
And we were able to, to do this research
for over three years to have the science
so we could start Connected Horse.
And Paula, I'm sure I'm
leaving something out.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Paula Hertel: Yeah, I think the, the
research was important 'cause it helped
us to sort of build a program that
had some structure behind it and the,
the why behind it so that when we went
out to share this with others, we,
we had that foundational knowledge.
And what it's allowed us to do is to then
build confidence and, and flexibility
knowing that the program that we put
together that really was designed the
original design was for the business
school at Stanford, and we modified some
of the pace of the program to fit ours.
But it's this reminder we're all human
beings showing up in this world together,
that we don't make huge changes because
someone is growing older or somebody
has dementia or somebody has some
medical diagnosis that you may modify
slightly in terms of how fast you
walk or, or, or how long your day is.
But the connection to each other and
the connection to horses is the same,
whether you're a CEO of some Silicon
Valley company or an 85-year-old woman who
is caring for someone who has dementia.
So is w- we were modeling that
we are all human beings showing
up in, in this world together.
What came out of it in terms of the
measures is that care partners told
us that they had reduced feelings of,
of depression, of burden that they
felt more supported in the world and
that they had the confidence, which
we sometimes call hope, to continue to
live life, stay engaged in life despite
having this big change in what they
thought their life was gonna be was
caring for somebody with, with dementia
and that they were sleeping better.
And Nancy talks a lo- a lot
about it, 'cause we're, we're
working on our sleep too.
But that, you know, 11 years ago not
everybody knew how important sleep
was, and I think particularly women we-
women were like, "Let's go, let's go.
We'veâ¦
we can go on five hours
of sleep and it's good.
We just drink more coffee."
And I think nowadays we know how
destructive that is to our own
bodies, but back then it was, it
was just starting in terms of how
important sleep is to wellbeing.
And so there's a lot of reasons for
these, these outcomes, and we continue
to look at what are the core benefits to
the work that we're doing now that we're
out of research and into community-based
programs, which has gotten us excited
about going back into research.
And Kansas has been really helpful to
introduce us to people that have some
now technologies that can help us show
what's really happening physiologically.
And Rupert, we had some earlier
conversations about that too.
What is happening physiologically to
individuals when we're doing these
workshops, and how can we understand
that better so that people have their
own agency, their own control of
how they wanna live their life and
how they wanna continue to not only
look at lifespan, but this wellness.
How do I feel good in the world?
How do I feel hopeful and, and
energized by where I'm at in, in my
life regardless of medical stuff?
Two
Rupert Isaacson: questions.
Two questions come up for me immediately.
First question is what actually
did you study in theseâ¦
So y- you mentioned two studies,
one at Stanford, one at Davis.
What did you study sort of in a nutshell?
And then B, you've talked about outcomes.
What are the outcomes?
And you also- actually,
it's three questions, and
you've talked about workshops
Yeah
What, what happens in those workshops?
So let's start with the studies,
then let's go to the outcomes,
let's go to the workshops.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Stanford designed
the study to look at the regular-
the measures that we use with older
adults, and that would be looking at
ex- anxiety and depression with these
scales, and social support, meaning how
the care partner feels more supported
on their journey of this new diagnosis.
Rupert Isaacson: And s- So you were mostly
studying the care partner rather than- So-
the person with the condition, or both?
We did
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: both.
Okay.
We did pre and post-tests on both the
person with the diagnosis, with, And
those folks were pretty much diagnosed
within two to three years of a, a time
window, as- and they had to have, meet
certain measures to be able to be in
the study based on Stanford's design.
So we looked at depression and anxiety,
and as Paula mentioned, this sense
of burden in, as a care partner, as
well as the person with dementia.
They had the exact same measures
of five measures, and three out of
five measures had a P value of .001,
which is the to- highest
you can get in research.
What's a P
Rupert Isaacson: value?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: It's the value
of the change from in a 15-hour
intervention in three consecutive weeks,
they came back to the barn to have
a two and a half hour, well, at that
time actually it was almost five-hour
intervention 'cause we had lunch in there.
But basically they had this intervention
in 15 hours, and they measured the di- the
difference in these pre and post-tests.
We did the sa- then it's,
well, wow, that's amazing.
Let's do it in a different
environment with different
horses and see if that works.
So then we went over to UC Davis and
did the identical study, had similar
results, and then the researcher said,
"Well, that's great, but does it last?"
So we had a booster session
six months later with all the
people at UC Davis that had come.
Our, our N, our amount
of people were 88 people.
There were some that were thrown
out because they missed one
box on a checkbox or something.
And so the, in the, we're really proud
to say in the booster session, even if
someone had a stroke or any change of
condition, we had 100% participation
that came back six months later.
So we knew we were onto something, and we
wanted to go straight into workshops to
be able to support people on this journey
now because the numbers are s- astounding
in the United States and across the world.
And so we said, "Well, we can
study it, but we have enough to
get going to say there's something
there there," as I mentioned.
Mm.
And take it out.
And so we've done our, our poster
sessions and research at, at different
international conferences with the
Alzheimer's Association, and we just
finished doing one at Alzheimer's Disease
International in France with all of the
results that we just had just in April.
So we continually are measuring outcomes
to see how people have changed and
as Paula says, are activated and have
some sense of hope on this journey
that they can change their lives.
And as you see from 10 years
ago, all the research now is on
lifestyle and maintaining lifestyle.
I just read an article this morning I
sent to Paula, a study out of London
that came out and said 80% of all
old age can be changed by lifestyle.
And so we wanted to focus on that, not
to give false hope that you won't get
dementia, because it's one-third genetics
and two-thirds lifestyle focused, but that
you can do things upon the diagnosis like
any disease to change the outcomes and
have a better lifespan and longevity so
it's, it's, it maintains like this instead
of going down in the next eight to 20
years from depression, anxiety, et cetera.
Right.
So this is kind of a
booster to get you started.
Rupert Isaacson: What did you do during
those studies with the people, and is
that now what you do in the workshops?
Paula Hertel: So, so in the research
we did 15 hours, as Nancy said, three
sessions, five hours- But of what?
Rupert Isaacson: What did the
people do in those sessions?
Yeah.
Okay.
Paula Hertel: So they cameâ¦
The, the participants came
together, so there'sâ¦
We start, we do a lot of group work,
mindfulness work, movement- Let me,
Rupert Isaacson: let me put it more- Okay
⦠bluntly for, for s- for a horse person.
Did you have them roping steers?
Did you have them jumping- No ⦠fences?
All from the ground.
Did you have them grooming horses?
No.
Did you have them going- All
from the ground ⦠swimming
in the ocean with their horses?
What did they
Paula Hertel: do?
That all sounds fabulous.
But no, all from the ground.
And so in these- But what
Rupert Isaacson: from the ground?
What did they do?
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
So we started slowly.
You would observe a horse individually.
You'd observe a horse in a herd.
Youâ¦
Which would sort of quiet the
mind, quiet the nervous system.
You would choose a horse to
hang out with over the fence.
That was, you know, activity,
exercise number one.
Then we would move through the day,
through the workshops, grooming a horse,
leading a horse haltering a horse- And
we added bathing when it's on a hot day.
It's a beautiful exercise to do.
And then we close our sessions with an
at liberty, so in a round pen letting a
horse go with no halter, no lead rope.
And individuals come in and have
a gratitude time wi- with a horse
with, without any structure.
So-
Rupert Isaacson: What do they do
in that gratitude time in general?
Paula Hertel: It's I mean, it's
an individual time for them.
It's very quiet, very slow.
Rupert Isaacson: It's- What did
it look like though in general?
There must have been some patterns.
Paula Hertel: Yeah, I
mean, it's different.
Rupert Isaacson: What
do people tend to do?
Paula Hertel: I mean, here's what's,
here's what's really beautiful and can
be hard for people to say how do, how
do we do it and what are they learning.
Mm-hmm.
Our goal as facilitators is about
holding neutral space for people to
get the experience that they want.
So the structure is around safety
and, and neutrality, not about
teaching someone to do- I do
Rupert Isaacson: understand.
No, no, that's not the
question I'm asking.
Yeah.
So- What did you observe,
this is the journalist in me.
Okay.
What did you observe in
general when people went in
to the round pen with a horse?
And I know you're going to
say, "Well, it was, it's all
very individual and da, da, da."
Yes.
Yeah, sure.
But at the same time, there's
always patterns that emerge.
There always are.
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
What did you notice?
The pattern, the pattern, I
would say, yes, every, every
interaction is different.
The pattern is a relaxed state, so,
you know, people shoulders are down.
People are calm.
The horse and the
participants are interacting.
So it isn't a forced or a hurry.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: my question.
Okay, that gets it.
How did they tend to interact?
Paula Hertel: I mean, I think it
would be similar to what horse people
would say join up, that the horse,
most often the, the person who comes,
we always have people take a deep
breath, get in touch with their own
body in the middle of the round pen.
They relax.
They get open.
And most often the horse then joins with
them in the middle of the round pen.
The, you
Rupert Isaacson: observed the
horse would tend to come to them.
Paula Hertel: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And when the
horse came to them, what was in
general the reaction of the human?
Would they reach out?
Would they-
Paula Hertel: Usually it's a pat
on the neck and a, and a s- Mm.
Sometimes it's a smile.
Sometimes it's a tear.
There's an emotion.
There's an emotion that emerges.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Paula Hertel: People and
there's a tactile touch.
Rupert Isaacson: And would the touch
move, would it start sort of at that-
Distance, sort of y- your arm-ish.
And then would they then go into
the horse more and hug the neck,
say, or something like that?
Or would people tend to
maintain their distances?
Would the horses tend to maintain
their distances, or would
the horses tend to move in?
Paula Hertel: I mean, at this point
they've been together for three weeks.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Paula Hertel: So I would
say not a lot of distance.
Certainly starting at the beginning,
there's distance, there's apprehension.
By the close of three, three ⦠Once a
week, but three consecutive weeks, the
confidence of getting up close with the
horse, the desire to connect is closer.
Not always a hug.
Was there
Rupert Isaacson: body to body connection?
Yeah.
Paula Hertel: There ⦠Yes.
There's body to body.
Almost always- And in the body to
Rupert Isaacson: body connect-
AM.
Right.
What, what were the patterns that you saw?
For example, in Horse Boy method, when
the, the first thing that most kids
will do, particularly young autists,
is when you put them with a horse, if
they want to get up, what they want to
do is they want to lie on the horse.
They want to use the horse like a- Yeah
big old couch, and they'll-
Mm ⦠go body to body.
Sometimes they'll go
forward and hug the neck.
Sometimes they'll lie back, you know,
with their head on the quarters.
But the most the, the most effective
and the one that we see that e- seems
to bring the most immediate joy that
they all end up doing is they turn
around and they hug the butt, and they
put their head on the horse's butt
like that, and they hug around there.
And they enter a kind
of a deep meditative-
phase
at this point, state at this point.
And we've just observed this
time and time and time again.
Of course, it started with my,
my, my son, and then we beganâ¦
That's actually what got me
into heart math, was thinking,
"Wow, what's going on here?"
And it was only when people
started talking about heart math,
I thought, "Oh, maybe it's that."
So that's why I'm intrigued by-
Yeah ⦠is there body to body contact?
And if so- ⦠what's the pattern?
How does it tend to go?
Paula Hertel: For us, I think it's
more around the neck and the head.
Okay.
Our participants also are very drawn
to horse's eyes, and they're drawn
to the f- the, the sensory feeling
of the horse's breath on their hand.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, I'm scanning my
brain for the hundreds of people
that have participated in our
workshops, and the, the, the hands
are, are very much a part of it.
And so the, theâ¦
I saw Kansas in the corner
of my eye doing this.
Yeah.
There is this movement aroundâ¦
We had a painter who, I mean, it was
just beautiful around the neck and
around feeling the, the breath of
the, through the horse's nostrils.
And then there's the
leaning in of the head.
Sometimes head to head, horse's
head to human's head, but, but most
often I would say, and Nancy pop
in here- Mm-hmm ⦠to the neck.
And so there's a leaning
in to a horse's neck.
And I have a beautiful story to tell
when you're ready for, for a story.
This is, this is what we came
Rupert Isaacson: to see with the- And
the neck and the hug ⦠at the hug.
Right.
Like a horse hug.
Yeah, a horse hug.
And, and that's heart to
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: heart, right?
Yes.
Heart to
heart.
They're, they're drawn to that.
And I know
Rupert Isaacson: that poor old Kansas's
battery's about to die, and I was just
about to say, "Okay, Kansas, what's
going on with this heart to heart stuff?"
Before your battery dies, can you-
Mm ⦠and if you cut out in the
middle, you cut out in the middle.
But what's going on on a
heart math perspective with
this heart to heart stuff?
Kansas Carradine: Well, you know,
there's a lot of inference, I think,
with just observing that we see that
there's a connection that takes place.
And we talk about how the heart
itself is an electromagnetic
organ, so it has a big broadcast.
It's much more measurable
than, say, from our brain.
From our brain we can measure about
one inch the skull, but the heart's
field is about as, like, wide as your
wingspan with your arms extended out,
and so the horse's is that much stronger.
There has been another bit of
research that actually you Paula,
I think Paula and Nancy sent
along, that talks about the Earth's
resonance, which is also very strong.
But I would really gather that
what we're seeing is when we're in
close proximity, that there's this
state of really an environmentâ¦
a, a vibrational frequency of ease
and calm that the horses broadcast.
And mind you, we're working with
horses in an equine-assisted
setting that are regulated horses.
They are not horses that
are in fight or flight mode.
They are not horses that are in
extreme trauma who are afraid
and not wanting to connect.
So they broadcast this grounded
sense of real tangible calm.
And now our emotions, it's a measurable
state, so the frequency that's emitted
from a being that is feeling very,
very safe and secure and willing to
really support another being, such
as I can just stand here and you can
lean on me, and that sense of not just
close proximity, but of connection
really to the natural world as well.
There's a resonance that puts us in phase
with each other, and that phase we talk
about is really coming into coherence,
where there's a synchronization of many
different organs, actions, and functions
that happen within our physiology.
And that coherent state, basically I
say it's like synchronized rhythm And
when things are rhythm, not dissimilar
to when your horses are move, working
in collection and you have, you know,
someone in the saddle and you're doing
the back riding, the rhythm and timing
start to kind of switch things into a
little bit more, we could say, bringing
some sense, bringing that sense of
clarity, bringing a sense of more
what is predictable instead of this
high overstimulated nervous system.
That's what I believe
is what we're seeing.
And then when we measure also even a
deeper level, the horses emit something
called VLF, which is very low frequency.
I imagine some, like, elephants
might do this as well- Mm ⦠but
we haven't yet measured them.
And I believe that there's a lot
of things that we just don't have
quite the instrumentation detailed
enough yet to really see some of
the other things that are going on.
But everything is vibrational.
Everything is energy.
So in coming so close to a being that's
very connected to Earth, feeling very
safe and secure, and obviously that
horse has been supported by its whole
education, you know, team and facility.
So the failure-free environment
that you talk about, you know,
Paula and Nancy, it's the field.
It's a collective field, and
it's nature-based, just like you
said, Rupert, with your programs.
So you're outside.
You're feeling the wind.
You know, we might be
doing herd observation.
You can hear the birds, and all
of a sudden people's nervous
systems start to unwind.
And the one of the things that I was so
excited to bring this connection together
is because part of your body of work,
Rupert, is, and people certainly listening
on this pod- podcast, is seeing those
who are non-verbal start to step into
a little bit more social engagement.
Mm-hmm.
And so perhaps Paula and Nancy, you can
share some of the observations that you've
had when those individuals who seem to
have been non-verbal, who seem to have
been checked out, who don't know where
they're going, like mum's not with it, and
I know one of the stories you've told me
is, "Oh, actually, she was able to give
the directions to get to the barn-" Yes
when someone was-
Yes ⦠lost on their way.
So maybe you can share-
Absolutely ⦠some of those stories.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Yeah, so when
you have someone with this devastating
diagnosis, Rupert, the whole family's
affected because they've seen all these
horrible things, you know, and they have
this vision and this stigma around this.
And but yet they're still people and
they're very capable of doing things, but
what happens is they start to shut down
'cause they might say the wrong word or
a word that sounds like a different word.
And, you know, people look at
them like, "What are you saying?"
Or especially a loved one will be
like, "What are you trying to say?"
I mean, the, you know, the
patients are about this long.
When you've lived with someone
who's been cognitively intact
for so long, and now they're not.
Yeah.
And so there's, there's a lot of
inwardness with the person living
with dementia, so they may not speak,
or they're afraid to say something,
and their confidence is gone.
And so when they get around this, this
magnificent animal in these three-week
time, they're usually a, a bit fearful
and a lit- little standoffish compared
to a child, how it, you know, I was
all over my pony as a little girl, and
I couldn't, you know, I had no fear.
There's a lot of fear, and so we work
on that every week, and what Paula so
beautifully calls, you know, the grooming
experience, where they're moving their
hands like this, is the giving and
receiving care that perhaps today that
horse isn't gonna pick up its hoof.
We're not gonna teach them how to do it.
We're not teaching
horsemanship whatsoever.
And then the horse may pick up the hoof
for the person usually with the diagnosis
we see over the care partner who's very
anxious about them performing at the right
level, or, "You can do that, Dad," or,
"Come on, honey, you know what to do."
And so there's a lot of that going
on every week, and then you see these
roles just disappear, and they become
a pair again, no matter what it is,
mother-daughter, sister-brother.
We've seen, you know, care partners and
friends and spouses and grandchildren and
everyone else come through these groups.
And so this stigma of living
with dementia, 'cause they're
living with it now, right?
Just like cancer or anything else.
Starts to go away and they
see them as whole again.
And that's a very important
transformation for the care partner.
And then the person who thinks, "I'm still
the same person, maybe I can't get my
words out as right," you know, has more
confidence to be able to be themselves
again instead of this shell because this
diagnosis, which I call the scarlet letter
of D, of dementia, is on them, right?
And so we're label- we're so quick
as sighted to label people, but
we're showing them they're still
there, they're the same person, and
the horse helps bring that together.
And so that's where we see this
release over and over again, and the
horse is there as our, our ⦠They're
not a tool, they're our teacher
basically, and they are part of this,
this amazing transformation where
people start talking again in full
sentences where we've seen this.
We've seen, what's my favorite
thing, is they come in with a cane
and feeling disabled and then they
say, "Here, take the cane, honey.
I'm gonna walk this horse," and
they start walking just fine.
We've seen this so many times
we can't even number it.
Because they have this disabled kind
of thought when they first come, and
then they have an enabled, activated
experience by the time they leave
Rupert Isaacson: This is
really interesting, obviously
for a million reasons.
But yeah, because what was coming up in my
mind was when you were saying, well, the
person with dementia is thinking, "Well,
I'm still the same person I always was."
And I'm thinking about certain
people I've known who were in
more advanced stages of dementia.
I'm not sure that that's what
they were thinking at that stage.
I think that perhaps- No ⦠what they
were showing was that they thought
they were some- a younger version
of themselves or other versions of
themselves, but not perhaps the particular
version of themselves aged 90 sitting
in this chair in a rubber- Right.
None of us do.
We don't feel our age.
Right.
But the, the, the-
H- h- how advanced in the symptoms
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: i- Oh,
that's an excellent question
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
If you tend to work with
people- we, we work with
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: people newly
diagnosed because we really wanted
to activate at a just like if someone
tells you you're gonna be, you're
pre-diabetic, "Oh, I'm gonna go on
a diet and I'm gonna exercise, I'm
gonna do all these other things."
We were looking at that first- Yeah ⦠to
help them change their mindset for
the course that's ahead of them.
Okay.
So they're not v- very advanced.
They're still walking, they're ambulatory,
but they're all different ages.
Our younger, youngest person was
57, and our oldest person was 92.
So we have a huge span of people
that we're, we're working with, and
it's not really based on debility.
They're much f- earlier in the stage.
And especially in research,
we had to test their cognitive
ability to even be in the study.
Mm-hmm.
Since we're in program now, we do
assist people that are, might be in
the, what we would call mid stages.
Okay.
But the, the anomaly of that is
there's no actual scale like that.
It's how they feel that day,
how much sleep they got.
Mm-hmm.
Did they have breakfast?
How people will show up that day is much
different based on, on the individual
and some of their lifestyle patterns.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
If you did have somebody who had fairly
advanced symptoms, and the reason I'm
asking this is w- I think we talked about
this in a previous conversation we had.
I had an interesting experience with
my wife's grandmother- Mm-hmm ⦠who
was in a pretty advanced stage, and
she was put in old people parking,
and we went, would go in to see her
and eat, have cake and coffee, but
she had no idea who we were and so on.
And then we brought our young kids,
who were toddler age at that point,
toddler and just post-toddler, and
she just went into a different mode.
And she said, "Oh, let's get
a Chinese checkers board.
Do the kids know how to
play Chinese checkers?"
She didn't know that these
were her great-grandchildren.
She didn't know.
But these were kids, and they
needed to learn how to play Chinese
checkers, and did they want cake?
And, and we watched the interaction
between her and her great-grandchildren.
It made no difference at all to
either of them that, the kids didn't
have a kind of self-concept of,
"Well, unless she knows that we're
her great-grandkids, this somehow is
a lesser hierarchy of interaction."
And, you know, they, they weren't-
Right ⦠coming from that space.
She was like, "Here are
children in front of me.
I know what to do with young children.
I like young children."
And she just began to teach them skills.
And we hadn't seen this person before.
Paula Hertel: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And this person emerged,
was for about an hour to an hour and
a half, completely present with them,
not so much with us, and then at a
certain point, got tired and retreated.
And we did this, ooh, four times, I think.
And, it was astonishing, and it made one
realize, oh, gosh, I see in back on the
old days on a family farm or something
like that, if you had grandpa or grandma
sitting quietly in a corner, and they
would just come out of their shells for
an hour or two a day to teach the kids
how to knit or teach the kids how to
work the loom or teach the kids how to do
this craft or this skill, and then that
they were a fully functioning participant
in that family economy, both socially
and economically, and their diagnosis
wasn't really preventing them from that.
Now we, of course, have
a very different picture.
So one of the reasons I was asking about
the if you have people with the sort of
later symptoms coming in, if so, do you
notice similar things to what I justâ¦
the, the, the story I just recounted?
Or, yeah, is thereâ¦
Can you speak to us on this?
Because I'm sure there's people listening
and watching who have loved ones who
are in that stage and are thinking,
"Hmm, I wonder if I was to bring
them into a nature-based environment.
Ooh, I wonder if I was to
bring them to the barn.
Hmm, whatâ¦"
You know.
So what are your thoughts?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, we ha- go
a- Paula's seen people with laterâ¦
We've, we've been testing people
with later stages beyond research
because we know we can help.
So Paula, I mean, we've modified
the program for those individuals.
Paula Hertel: I think part of
it, couple things come up to mind
when you were sharing that story.
One is that loneliness
and isolation is a killer.
And so part of what happens both
societal and individually is that
when you feel like you no longer fit
or can participate, you withdraw.
And so some of the, some of what
you're seeing is, is may have
nothing to do with, with dementia.
It may have to do with boredom, with
no sense of purpose, with feeling
isolated and not part of, of community.
And so I think we do have to be
careful that every sort of what
we label as a deficit or a change
may have ve- very little to do
with, with some disease process.
So that's one thing- Good point
that comes to mind.
Yeah.
The other that comes to mind
is that, that our society is so
reliant on, on verbal communication.
And one of the beautiful things i- is
that horses are non-verbal communicators.
They're very good at that.
And so, what we often see is that when
we allow this, what Kansas was sharing
and, and we sometimes take for granted,
is this failure-free environment.
Doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't
matter how many times you say things, it
doesn't matter if you put the halter on
all wonky, it doesn't matter, How you show
up, you are welcome in this environment.
And what we found is that that
neutral, encouraging, accepting
space allows people to just be.
We talk about being with
instead of doing to.
It, it allows, we think, and this is
where Kansas is helping us show it,
we think that sort of nervous system
busy, worried mind and nervous system
calms, and pe- people get out of
the fight, flight, freeze response.
Mm-hmm.
And with that, we see people
that were aphasic, that couldn't
talk, start to share stories.
We see people that had mobility issues
because they're out moving, and we are
supporting that with with slowing down
the pace that they are actually moving
more, that their confidence is going.
So they show up in the world differently.
And we know that emotional memory
stays with the essence of who we are.
And so we've seen years later, we
give people at the end of a workshop,
we give them either a book of their
experience or a c- a photo collage,
that years later they may not remember
the name of our program or the name of
the horses, but the emotional response
when they're sharing that book or that
photo is still within that person.
And so sometimes I think we, we, the sort
of collective human without the disease
of dementia, think that, that somebody
has lost everything, and it could be
that they've lost their verbal ability
to tell us, but what they're experience
e- experiencing is still within them.
And so it's up to us to look for
those cues in different ways,
and we see that over and over
and over again in our program.
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a
misunderstood or only now becoming
understood trauma in, or traumatic
response to people feeling that
Be- yeah, th-th-they now need to
withdraw because they can't trust
what comes out of their mouths.
They can't they're worried they're
gonna, you know, all the things.
And so therefore a lot, is, is, is
it true, do you think it's quite true
that quite a lot of what we see in
an apparently not really there person
anymore is in fact someone who's
just withdrawn massively, and that
in the right circumstances, I mean,
w- obviously we talked about that
experience with the kids, but perhaps
in something more structured that
they could actually come forth again?
A-
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, there is
still a degenerative process of the brain.
Okay.
So the brain is act- actually
atrophying and dying.
Mm-hmm.
So everyone is different, and some
people's verbal skills might be
more affected, some vision in the
back of the brain is affected motor
skills and sequencing, all of that
is part of the disease process.
Mm.
But we do agree that there is some trauma
once you get a, a devastating diagnosis.
Mm.
People go straight into depression
and get- Mm ⦠an antidepressant.
Like, that's kind of what happens.
And so this, this coming out and
being with those you love and trust
the most in your life- Mm ⦠is
a very healing experience n- no
matter what the diagnosis is- Sure
because they have these
years ahead of them.
And so emotional memory is intact, as
Paul is mentioning, and the family just
thinks, "Oh, yeah, they don't remember,"
but maybe it's just a little bit slower.
It's a slower response.
So our pace is so important, and the
horse's pace, and giving the time for
the neurons to fire in the brain, for
someone to speak or react or what have
you, but our world is so fast and we're
asking them so many questions, that
they need to process a much slower pace.
And when we slow down like
that, you can actually have a
full conversation with someone.
And the horse- It's so f- ⦠helps
them be present, right?
Rupert Isaacson: It's so funny.
You, you could be parenting, parroting
me when I'm talking about- ⦠you
know, non-verbal or not very verbal
autistic kids, just saying, "Slow down."
But one of the interesting things with
that is there's an i- when people are
very young, and particularly when they're
kids, there's a kind of an optimism
that okay, we'll amend what we're doing
even though we find it torturous or- Yes
you know, very difficult to slow
down in that way to give them the
timed response because we're kind
of investing in their future.
And I think that's a, e- even if that's
not a conscious thought, it's a, it's a
thought that a lot of people are having.
I think when people are dealing with
people heading towards end of life,
there's often a feeling of, "Well,
we're not, there's nothing to invest in
here, so why would we take that time?
Why would we slow down?"
It's- And also they
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: were functioning
at the highest level before, so
you, you expect them to still be
that way, and that's the- Yeah
⦠frustration of the care partner.
Well, Mom, you knew how to
get here before, you know,
why can't you drive there?
You know, that, that's the, the opposite
side of the spectrum that we're seeing
than what you work with because you've
seen someone, a highly, you know,
they were a scientist at wherever.
You know, so you see this high, high
level of cognitive reserve that is now
decreasing, and that is where there's
a lot of frustration with the care-
the family, because they're used to
them for 50, 60, 70 years at a certain
level, and now they've slowed down.
So then that's where the infantilizing
starts to come in- Oh, yeah
where they basically start treating
them more like a child because they
weren't that way before, right?
And so then they, the family
dynamics, it depends, every, every
i- person is an individual, so
we do not like to stereotype all
people because everyone's different.
It's based on culture, and
family values, and what that, you
know, family looks at education.
This person's highly educated.
Why are they acting this way, right?
So there's a lot of isms, if
you will, that are swirling
around with this diagnosis.
So when they come in, we just want them
to be a, a pair again, whatever that
pair is, and leave all those other things
behind, and that's the magic of what we
see because emotional memory is there.
Rupert Isaacson: When you talk about
culture, that's interesting to me.
Do you see cultures where there's a more
prevalent sh- prevalence of dementia?
Do you see cultures where there's less?
And do you see cultures where
there seem to be better outcomes?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, that's a
s- that's an answer for the Alzheimer's
Disease International, but unfortunately
dementia hits every culture,
every person, every sex, everyone.
So it depends on their cognitive
reserve in your field- Sure, sure, sure,
Rupert Isaacson: butâ¦
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: But it
depends on how people, elders are
treated in the culture, absolutely.
That's, I know what you're asking.
And if they revere their elders and
cultures, then they have purpose, and what
you were talking about, the grandmother,
she jumped right into her purpose
with children, wants to teach them.
That's never gone.
That is the emotional memory
that comes out and starts to
take over because it's there.
It's never gone.
You just have to bring it out.
Rupert Isaacson: But in your
work so for example, whenâ¦
in my work I often notice in
America better outcomes for
Hispanic families with autism.
Why?
There's often a very, very
strong family dynamic.
There's often a very good intact
extended family, so there's often
support for the mum and the dad who are
going through it, so you tend to get a
little bit less exhaustion and burnout.
There's often more siblings, so
there's a certain amount of, you
know, kids bring each other up.
Mm-hmm.
And the it takes a village thing, that is
more intact currently in Hispanic culture
in the USA than it is in Anglo culture.
It just is.
Back in the day when people lived
out on family farms more and so on
in the Anglo culture, that was more
intact, but that's largely gone.
In African American families we see almost
like a half-and-half mix that there there
are some areas, particularly in rural
areas, where we see exactly those same
outcomes that are very, very strong with
the extended families and so on, and
then in certain urban areas we might not.
So that's more to do with different
types of societal pressure.
It's not to do with eth- ethnicity.
But it, it, w- that's why I said culture.
So even within cul- Black cultural,
Anglo cultural, Hispanic culture, there
are different subcultures and some might
have a, a better outcome than others.
But in our jobs it's important that
we notice these things because we,
we need to notice what works and then
try to orient people towards that.
So do you notice cultures
where it works better?
And if so, do you help people from
the cultures where it's not working so
well to orient towards some of those
values and give them tools for that?
Paula Hertel: I mean, I would say, I'm
gonna veer a teeny bit off the culture,
but I, I think it's a good discussion.
We do see some gender
differences, and so when- Okay
Women, the m- many of the women that
we see through our program are much
better at being the, the giver of
care, the protector of the person who
has a diagnosis of dementia and less
comfortable with being the receiver, and
less comfortable with asking for help.
One of our main barns is in the Bay
Area in California, and so there's
this sort of fast-paced Silicon Valley
production need to move fast culture.
And so asking for help often can
feel like I'm not doing enough
for this person that I care for.
And so, the giving and receiving and
that duality of, of, of how it feels
and the reality of that we- there's this
interdependence that we have in this
dependency model, even though you as a
care partner feel like you're doing a good
job by taking on the role of protector
and doer and carer a- actually can create
more dependency decline a person feeling
like they can't do and so they withdraw.
And so we pick apart those pieces in,
i- in those myths that independenceâ¦
It, it's a myth of independence,
like we're all interdependent.
But that, that myth that being able
to be the receiver of something is
a weakness, and we do that through
the interactions with the horses.
Oftentimes we have a horse that
is finished with whatever activity
exercise that we're working on.
We're like you know, I think-"
Apollo is done for the day.
What do you guys think?
Yep, all right, let's, let's
thank him for his work, and
let's go check on another horse.
And that that's not failure, that's
awareness, and without judgment.
And that is relearning and shifting your
mindset that everything has a judgment
or a value to it instead of just being.
And I know that feels sort of ethereal,
but unwinding that for the care
partner is is freeing and healthy and
and the person living with dementia
then gets the benefit of being an
equal participant, not a dependent
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
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We work in the saddle
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Helping them create oxytocin in their
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It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
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Finally, we have taquine
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If you know anything about our
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So, this means we need to train
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And it also ends your time conflict,
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Takine equine integration aimed
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absolutely gives you this.
This is interesting.
W- q- you're talking about
quality of life here.
You're talking about enjoyment of life.
Paula Hertel: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And- It's,
Paula Hertel: and, and non-judgment-
Yeah ⦠I think that, yeah, so, so what?
He's not into it today, so what?
Someone wants- Yeah ⦠four shirts.
So what, the h- horse doesn't
wanna take a walk today.
Like, okay, that's good to notice.
Let's try something else.
Mm-hmm.
Instead of this sort of control-
Rupert Isaacson:
Mm-hmm ⦠attachment to outcome
worry.
Yeah.
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
Attachment to outcome.
Yes.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: you're dealing with
a terminal disease, so there is no hope.
There's no cure for dementia at this
point, so that crosses every culture.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, again,
so this raises questions.
I've spent a lot of time with hunting and
gathering cultures, like lots, years, and
people live a long time in those cultures.
They tend to live into their 90s,
and they drink like fish, they smoke
like chimneys, they bonk everything
in sight, including selling their
bodies to the truckers coming through.
This is in Botswana, which had the
highest HIV rates of a- in Africa
when I was mostly working there, yet
they weren't showing up with HIV.
Is, is something was goingâ¦
What was going on?
And a lot of people who are studying
these peoples, they didn't have
answers, so they just had the questions.
Like, why, why are these
people remaining so healthy?
They seem to be doing everything wrong.
Whatâ¦
okay, they, they're hunters and gatherers.
They run around a lot, and they live
in nature, and they, you know, their
diet's pretty good of course, and
their social dynamics are very good.
But they have something else at the core
of their culture, which is the shaman.
They have traditional healing.
And whatever one thinks about that,
people usually divide into two camps.
They usually sort of, "Well, oh,
that's just all superstition and
rubbish," or a sort of over-credulity.
And you know, if you're a bushman sitting
out there in Namibia or Botswana, you
have never heard the term New Age.
You don't know what a hippie is.
You know, that's ir- irrelevant, you know?
And, and, and you are the most
pragmatic person on the planet.
You know how to recognize from
cracks in the ground whether or not
there's a water-bearing tuber down
there- ⦠in the dry season, and
you can dig it out even though you're
90, and you can, you know- Yeah
do what you need to do, which obviously
most people of 30 in our culture can't do.
So, there seems to be a lot of
constant neuroplasticity going
on in that you constantly are
problem-solving and moving your body,
and problem-solving and moving your body.
We know that that leadsâ¦
or the neuroscience we know now is
something called BDNF, brain-derived
neurotrophic factor- Right
which is that protein that gets created
in the brain that creates new neurons
that when we do this kind of thing.
Right.
Okay.
But that can't be the whole story because
if it was the whole story, then people
who are very, very active in our li-
in our culture wouldn't get dementia.
Because what you see is that you don't
see a lot of people, in fact, I don't
think I've ever seen anybody in the
Kalahari showing up with signs of dementia
unless they were off their tits drunk
and or high or something, and then they
snap right back to where they should be.
So what was going on?
And what I, what one noticed, and not
just me, anyone who spent time out
there is you noticed that they were
engaging in an inter- dimensional
way through the use of trance.
And this seems to lead
to really good outcomes.
Then I know there have also been studies
of people in convents and monasteries
where they've looked at brain scans,
and the people seem to be, you know,
completely leading the same life they
were liv- leading 20 years before, and
they're just as active, and they're
running the garden, and they're running
the laundry, and they're doing the
this, and they're doing the that, and
the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And when the brain scan is done, they
seem to be showing as much degeneration as
somebody showing really intense symptoms.
Mm-hmm.
But
they seem to be showing no
symptoms or very few symptoms.
I wonder if people did those same brain
scans on the Bushmen in the Kalahari,
would they see something similar?
Would they see the same
degeneration but lack of symptoms?
And if so, why?
So is there a core spiritual element
here that we're not paying attention to?
That's the first thing, because there
seems to be a correlation between those
monastic environments and the Kalahari,
even though the Kalahari people don't
behave in a monastic way They still have
a very, very strong spiritual focus.
And if so, what do you
think that might be?
And is that what the horse is doing?
Is the horse taking the
place of the shaman?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Perhaps.
Yeah, that, that- It's a
very interesting question.
Paula Hertel: I, I will s-
I'll say that a, that a partâ¦
I don't know the answer to your question.
I think it's a good, good question.
Let's discuss.
Let's discuss.
But I'll add in the, the meditation
piece of it, which is a big
part of our, of our program.
And so there's the spirituality piece that
you could take the biology back into it
and say it's reducing the cortisol level
and the stress response in our body.
Part of that, and does the spirituality
piece that you talk about in those two
populations, does that help to reduce
the, the cortisol, the stress response in
our bodies, and is that what's happening?
And somebody smarter than me is gonna
be able to figure that, that piece out.
But what I do know is that being
present, being mindful and reducing that
fight-flight-freeze response in our own
nervous system is beneficial to all of us.
And specifically in our program, we open
our circle with a meditation that takes
people out of the- their crazy mind and
brings them into the present that has
them get in touch with their senses, has
them get in touch with their body, and
to leave those sort of outcomes and tasks
of, of productivity behind and just be
present and grounded in where they're at.
And I really believe that that
helps people accept themselves.
It helps them connect with others
and be more aware and intentional.
And we see that, and it could be that
that's 'cause we're from California,
but we see that across cultures.
We see that across age groups.
We see it in corporate America.
And people call it different things, but
it is about how do you calm your body,
calm your mind so that you're present in
connection with who you are, and that,
that physiological response is good for
your health and good for your wellbeing.
Rupert Isaacson: When you
do your meditations this is
interesting to me you're all
You know, meditation is a, is, is
largely i- in the way it's done in
like a sangha, is, is often a sort
of a top-down instruction type thing.
You know, I'm leading the thing
and you ⦠When I say breathe,
you breathe in like this, and you
breathe out like this, and so on.
Do you get then the people with, let's
say they've got mid-range symptoms, do
you have someone sort of stand up in
the middle of that, cut a huge fart,
say, "Hoist the mainsail," and, you
know, "There she blows," and throw
a harpoon at the imaginary whale?
Or-
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: No.
⦠do
Rupert Isaacson: you actually find that
when you're in that space, even someone
who might have a ve- a sort of completely
inappropriate reaction because of the
symptoms in, in one situation, they
actually come into coherence in your
situation there, in that meditation?
And if so, why?
Why do you think that is?
Paula Hertel: So it's the latter.
We see people calm.
And Kansas has taught us a lot
about this and so we incorporate
a lot of the HeartMath piece-
Mm ⦠that she taught us.
And in fact, one of our main facilitators
is a, a HeartMath facilitator,
certified HeartMath facilitator.
And and so again, outwardly s- we
will sometimes see people fidget
or even verbalize a- anxiety,
that sort of vi- you know, call it
the sort of sparkle nervousness.
And with touch and breath, people calm.
And so, what's going on inside, if Kansas
is still with us, I think she should jump
on and, and explain that piece to it.
But from, from the outside, it is pa- for
me it is the acceptance of group work.
So a piece of our, our program is
about group acceptance, group work
and, and, and feeding off each other.
So when the group calms, breathes,
and that energy shifts because
we, people and horses, are all
helping to calm the environment,
you can't help but respond to that.
And, and then the second piece
of it is that older adults
don't get touched very often.
Mm.
So just holding somebody's hand
and breathing with them oftentimes
have you breathing together.
And that that safety, that feeling
that I'm connected to somebody else,
that bringing into the group versus
that isolation and pulling back that we
talked about earlier makes a difference
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So that spiritual co- component seems
to bring people back into a sort of
appropriate nervous system response.
Mm-hmm.
Meaning
that then somebody who perhaps earlier
might not have been able to engage
in that group top-down instruction
sort of a thing now can behave in
a sort of outwardly functional way.
Paula Hertel: And we're all equal,
so all of our volunteers, all
of our participants go through
this grounding exercise together.
Right.
It isn't about us fixing someone or-
No ⦠you know, we are all ⦠So that
group together is, is breathing together,
is focusing on acceptance together, is
getting intentional about how we're gonna
interact with the horses, and so we show,
we, the collective we, show up open,
calm, and ready to engage with the horses.
And so, part of this is when we're talking
about equine-assisted services, we talk a
lot about how the horses show up for us.
We as a group and individuals also
have a responsibility of how we
show up to interact with the horses.
So if I come and I'm anxious and
nervous or angry and I show up that
way to the horse, that horse is
gonna retreat because they don't
wanna connect with me in that- Right
kind of energy.
So that, that self-agency is is a
responsibility and a gift because I as
an older person or I as a person with a
diagnosis of dementia, I as a burned-out
caregiver now have a way to regulate
my own body and the way I show up.
That's mine.
That's power because that's not
someone doing something to me.
That is the way, that is me making
a conscious decision of how I'm
gonna show up for the group, for
the horses, for this experience.
Rupert Isaacson: I have a, a great friend
and colleague called Joelle Dunlap,
who runs something called Square Peg
Foundation outside of San Francisco.
We know each other through mostly, you
know, autism and other types of work
like that, but she also, like us, works
with a wide variety of populations.
She made the point quite recently that
a lot of what we seem to be dealing with
in all the populations we're working
with is effectively cortisol poisoning.
Mm.
You know, when we talk aboutâ¦
I t- I'm talking about, say, the Bushmen.
Life's not easy out there, but it is
life as humans are supposed to live it.
And because of that, provided
someone's not coming in and actually
displacing you from the land or
something, there's a kind of base
happiness that you, that's noticeable,
and a sort of lightheartedness.
Mm-hmm.
I think a lot of my own lightheartedness
I sort of learned from them.
They're irreverent.
They don't take things very seriously.
They certainly don't take spirituality
very seriously, while at the
same time being possibly the most
spiritual people on the planet.
But they, they don't approach it with
a sense of reverence at all, at all.
The work that's we- that's been done on
us with Horse Boy and our programs seems
to show that we create oxytocin, which
of course brings down cortisol, 'cause
it's the antidote effectively, but itâ¦
and soothes the nervous system and
makes people feel good, but it's
also the hormone of communication.
I'mâ¦
From listening to what you're talking
about, I'm wondering if something
similar is maybe going on with your
work, that y- you're doing a decrease.
People are coming in ma- you
know, flooded with cortisol.
"Shit, I've had this terrible diagnosis.
Shit, my spouse has got
this terrible diagnosis.
Fuck, it's all over."
You know, "Jesus Christ, this is the worst
thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Life is so hard.
The insurance won't pay anything.
It's all so expensive.
You know, what are we gonna do?
Blah, blah, blah."
And to be in an environment where you,
the cortisol level is brought down and
then replaced by connection, which is
oxytocin what do you think of that?
And if that's the case, by the
way, why do it with a horse?
Why not also do it with, say, a dog or,
or, you know, another social animal?
Because we, you know, studies have
shown that, for example, you can
increase your oxytocin by obviously
hugging another human, but also
stroking your dog or whatever.
So what do you think is the
particular value of the horse in this?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well,
because a horse is a prey
animal compared to a predator-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Nancy Schier Anzelmo: chosen horses for
that reason, 'cause they're scanning their
environment constantly to see if we're- Mm
⦠gonna hurt them or help them or whatever.
And they also live in a herd,
and they look out for each other,
if they can live in a herd, Mm.
Depending where the horse is living.
But the ones we use do.
And so the, the horse has as we know
from equine-assisted learning, that,
y- you know, they've shown up with
all the research there's been about
horses healing so many populations,
Rupert, and that's why we chose horses.
Because, you know, if it can help children
with autism, if it, if they can help
prisoners, and first responders, and
veterans, why can't it help people in
this state of a devastating diagnosis?
Older adults, just because they're
older doesn't mean that they
can't have the same response,
'cause we're still living beings.
And the horse has been there
for all these other populations.
So Paula and I thought we're the first
ones in the country that we know, maybe
the world, we don't know, that have done
this type of a, a program with older
adults with a neurocognitive disease
such as Alzheimer's disease or other
diagnosis, and their care partner.
Because it does throw the family into a
s- a state of panic, just like you said.
And so this diagnosis, you know,
more ⦠Older adults are more afraid
of getting dementia than cancer.
So that tells you a lot, right?
Mm.
And so that, they feel like
they're losing their sense of self.
But the-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Nancy Schier Anzelmo: person is
still there always, as you mentioned
with your grandmother, and it's
up, up to us to bring that out.
And the horse brings it out better
than anything we've ever seen in our 30
years of practice in this medical field
Paula Hertel: I think there's something
about the physicality of it too.
I'd like to- Oh, go ahead, Kansas.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I was hoping
Kansas might jump in on this, 'cause
I, I was wondering if, if there's
also something about the scale and
the size of the horse's heart- Mm-hmm
um, that's involved in this.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
I, I'll just chime in for a little minute,
because, you know, when you speak about
how is the horse kind of playing the role
of the shaman and really connecting us
to our spirit, each time there's a equine
facilitated interaction, oftentimes we
really treat the moment deeply with honor
and respect, and we treat it sacred.
And then we're inviting
in this ritual, in a way.
Like, there's kind of a, a protocol,
a program, a ritualistic repetition.
It's ceremonial, in a way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kansas Carradine: And that, that
energetic, again, from the facilitation,
the kind of holding that we're doing a
shamanic ritual, in essence, and it's
connecting us to the spiritual world.
We're doing that very kind of
scientifically, and we've grounded
it in evidence-based research so
people don't just wanna take us off
to the loony bin and whatnot and,
or burn us at the stake, right?
But it's ultimately what is taking place.
And there's something that, in the early
days of research with HeartMath, they were
focusing on something called entrainment,
and there's a fascinating phenomena
that, like, if you have cuckoo clocks or
metronomes and you have, say, 100 of them,
they will all eventually synchronize.
And the process of entrainment, so
that rhythm that is really coherent,
like the heartbeat of a drum.
If you've been in Native American
ceremonies and you hear that drum, is
the heartbeat, and it just continues.
Similarly, this pulse that is sent
out that is, again, coherent, that is
uniting, that creates harmony, that is
something that we can all entrain to.
So when we ⦠An individual who, if
they're in a shamanic ceremony and they
might be out of balance and are seeking
some sort of return to center they will
come in the group of individuals who
are, you know, centered, or someone
who's trans- trans- transmediary for
the spiritual realm, to create that
entrainment so that everybody can be
cohesive again once in the community.
Right?
And so when we come together, the
entrainment of these other hearts,
you know, the horses as well, and
quite frankly, most of the time
people are gonna be on a stable.
You might only work with one horse,
but maybe there's 20 there or 40.
So there's all these other beings that
are, that are attuned to each other, and
then we come in and receive, you know,
indirectly or directly this attunement.
I think really that, that ⦠You know,
I can't explain it as much in the, in
the ⦠We're starting to be able to
measure some of these things, but the
process of entrainment and treating
it as a sacred way to honor, because I
think the cortisol poisoning that Joelle
is speaking to, and it's interesting
because Janet Fitch, who is teaching
the, the Heart Math with Connected
Horse also does that with Joelle Dunlap.
So Janet Fitch is all around.
She's a great, great Heart Math trainer
who is also, like, head of HR for Kaiser
Permanente, the, one of the largest
healthcare systems in California.
And she believes so much in
that particular work because the
cortisol poisoning that we're
experiencing is because we don't
take anything as sacred, because we
completely lost our sense of ritual.
We've lost our connection to the earth.
We've lost our connection to ourselves.
So we need ritual.
We've lost our connection to ourselves.
Okay, so we need ritual to bring our
Rupert Isaacson: cortisol levels down.
Right?
Kansas Carradine: It feels like that will
create some risoner- res- regularity,
familiarity, consistency, and therefore
that rhythm, and therefore those
rituals also create that entrainment.
We have something to grasp onto
that can give us some, some sense
of really predictability also.
Yeah.
And that's just
that's conjecture.
Do, do you remember we did
Rupert Isaacson: a podcast a couple
weeks ago, Kansas, and it w- that
1997 study from the University
of Kassel in Germany came up.
Mm.
They were ⦠There had
been- The first ones, yeah
It's, it's amazing that this was
so long ago and that even in my
field I hadn't heard of it, and
I've been living in Germany and
working with German universities.
No one had told me.
But it turns out, 'cause Kansas told
me and I looked it up and it turned
out to be true, that a study had been
done, showing the emission of photons,
light particles, from human hearts when
people were thinking thoughts of love.
Apparently- I would, I would
Kansas Carradine: interrupt
here because- Yeah, go
ahead ⦠feeling, it's the feeling.
It's not thinking it, it's feeling.
You,
Rupert Isaacson: you take it
away because you, you know
this study- ⦠better than I.
Kansas Carradine: No, I, I mean, I just
think it's a really ⦠We talk about
thinking and imagining, and that's a step
to it, but when you really feel it and
you anchor it in, this feeling of love,
this feeling of connection, the feeling
of being safe and secure, the feeling of
being accepted, the feeling of compassion,
those are actual tangible experiences
in the human, in the human world.
And so when you're really feeling that
and then broadcasting it and what people
are calling now heart coherence in a
very deliberate way where we regulate
our breathing pattern to be even inhale
and exhale and it takes a little bit
more focus, but the light photons
that are being emanated expand from,
like, 10 to 20 normal to thousand.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I'm, I'm just ⦠I looked it up again
on my phone- The impact- ⦠because
it's hard to keep the figures- ⦠of
our heart ⦠in one's mind.
Yeah.
It, the claim ⦠The
internet ⦠Blah, blah, blah.
The average human heart seems
to emit 20 photos- photons per
second, which is interesting that
if light is love and love is light.
Okay.
While a meditating person emits
100,000 photons per second.
That ⦠So it's very interesting to
me that biophotons they're calling
them if that's a sort of measurable
expression of love, if you've got beings
with exceptionally big, physically big
hearts, horses, and as you said, Kansas,
maybe you got 20 of them in the barn and
they're all observing what's going on-
I- i- is that part of creating
that vibrational thing that
happens in ritual and ceremony?
That's why we dance.
Mm.
That's why we chant, to bring
that vibrational change to
a different resonance, and
it's ⦠This is well measured now.
It measured Tibetan monks and, you
know, it's, it's not in any way woo-woo.
This is people have put the EEG machines
on and found, yeah the brainwaves come
to alpha waves, delta waves, and people
seem able to be much more effective.
Okay.
So for example, when we were observing
first my son and then other kids, and
then eventually adults lying body to
body on a horse and coming into this
state of deep, deep, deep resonance
and calm first we're like, "Well, I
don't know why that's happening, but
it's great, so let's keep doing it."
And then we discovered heart math,
and we're like, "Ah, I wonder if it's
because they're on this body that has
this huge heart resonance that they're
putting their heart directly on."
And that's why I asked you earlier
in this conversation, what was the
what did the, what did the people
do when they were in the round pen?
Did they go in eventually for a hug?
And that's the sort of first
heart-to-heart thing with, with, with the
horse, and the answer seems to be yes.
And then we've often noticed in our
work that let's say you've got two
or three other horses around while
someone is doing this thing that we
call sensory work, lying on the horse
i- in this way, and the horse will
often go into this state of kind of
like and literally like start drooling.
You know?
They go into kind of a bliss state.
But we'll notice that the two, three
other horses standing nearby will get a
contact high and go into the same state.
Mm.
So we see this all the time.
So is what we're all stumbling into here-
In fact, yes, this way of finding our
way back to the types of ceremony and
vi- that cause the vibrational change
that, say, a Bushman might be able to do
every 10 days because they just happen
to have shamans readily available that
we no longer have 'cause we burned them
all alive over a several hundred years.
And that now we are actually finding
our way back to these states, and that's
through work like yours, and that's
why we're finding these good outcomes.
And then that's gonna be
my next question as well.
So the question is, A, do we
think that's what's happening?
And B, what are the outcomes?
Are you see- so I know you said Nancy,
for example, "Oh, well, you know,
it, it's, it's a diagnosis forever.
The brain is going to
degenerate, so blah, blah, blah."
Yeah, sure.
But you could say the same thing about
TBIs, you could say the same thing about
strokes, you could say the same thing
about- Right ⦠autism that is perhaps
produced by a toxic shock to the brain and
the nervous system, enough said on that.
But what we've observed is that, yeah,
sure, that might be the starting point,
but if you create enough neuroplasticity-
Mm-hmm
you can absolutely change the outcome.
And okay, maybe that person is going to
need certain supports in their life or
such and such and such, but nonetheless,
they can go on to live like a really,
really good fulfilled, even economically
successful life, particularly if
they have some supports around them.
So that it's not hopeless by any means
at all, and that calming down of the,
of the, of the cortisol and then the
creating of that good neuroplasticity
is still a factor for outcome.
That's right.
So are you seeing what outcomes in
that sort of way are you seeing with
the, with the work that you're doing?
I, I- Not just acceptance, right?
Kansas Carradine: I would love for you
guys to be able to answer this, but I'm
gonna have to go soon because I'm also
going to be spending time with Sanaa,
who I think we should have on this
podcast as well, and she brings miniature
horses into memory care facilities that
are much more I guess advanced, right?
Uh-huh.
They do require full-time
minding or caregivers.
Sorry for the background noise.
And it's really fascinating.
Similarly, those who have been
non-verbal will begin to start to
speak, and the hand grooming that you
talk about Nancy and Paula, that's
in your program, touch and all along.
And then one last local story is my
uncle, his father-in-law had a very
early onset, and he would be in very
tight, contracted tension, and that
would be showing, exhibiting as a
lot of agitation, and he would end
up taking him out and around horses.
And he has this video
of him just relaxing.
His hands would unwind.
He would have a smile on his face,
and he would actually be riding
the horse, and it was as though,
"Oh, there's, there's Dad again."
So that's, that's a couple outcomes,
and I know you guys have many, many
more, but I'm gonna go because I'm
gonna get hitched up and head out to
work with Sanaa and the mini ponies.
Rupert Isaacson: Then- Great.
Thank you ⦠can you please, just
quickly, when you get there, please,
on my behalf, ask Sanaa if she
would come on the show and talk.
Yes.
Would you just invite her-
Definitely ⦠and let's co-host it
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah?
Beautiful.
Paula Hertel: All
Rupert Isaacson: right, grand.
Okay.
See you in a bit.
Yes.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Bye, Candice.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.
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this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
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well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Paula Hertel: Bye.
It's- The other piece that I think is
interesting to talk about in terms of,
of the individual, so you're talking sort
of about ritual and, and consistency.
There are times at the barn where
there's tractors and work going on,
and birds making lots of noise, and
when we close the, the circle, we
usually ask people to share a word
or a phrase about their experience.
And many times it is calm, peaceful.
And, and, and so it reminds me that,
that we take in what we wanna take in.
So the work that we have done with
the, the experiences that people
have had in the workshops with the
horses and with each other, they-
their, their consciousness has shut
out the tractor, the, all theseâ¦
the, the train going by, the
honking car down the street, which-
Rupert Isaacson: The people
letting off automatic fire over
the other side of the fence.
Yeah, so those- That's something
we often have to deal with
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
Those things that- ⦠that we would
judge as, "Oh, that's ruining the
program," or, "That's, that's taking
away our peace," they have pushed out.
And so there is, again, that agency
of people to feel what they wanna
feel and experience what they wanna
experience by what they allow to
come in to their mind and their body.
The first time that we did our
program at Stanford, there was, like,
this 100-year storm in California.
And we're like, "Oh, my God."
Thunder and rain, and we're looking
at the protocols, and they're
like, "Okay, as long as there's
not lightning, we can still-
Rupert Isaacson: And God said,
"Yes, this program will be good."
Paula Hertel: We can still do this.
And so we are apologizing, and we were
all, you know, in, in fight-flight
mode, and our cortisol was up.
And one of the participants
said to us This is nothing.
You know?
Like- Yeah ⦠from what we're
dealing with, this is nothing,
and we're like, "Of course."
And, you know, we let it go, and it was
an amazing day when we let go of the
outcome that the sun had to be shining,
and we had to have blue, white puffy
cloud, blue sky and white puffy clouds.
Rupert Isaacson: And- Or at
least not 100 mile an hour winds.
Yeah, yeah.
Right,
Paula Hertel: yeah.
We didn't have that much wind, but
we did have rain and thunder, and the
horses showed up in beautiful ways.
And so- Yeah ⦠it is how do
you modify your experience and
how, and your own ability to, to
decide how you're gonna show up,
Rupert Isaacson: whether-
It's interesting too.
In any shamanic ceremony, that
would have been taken asâ¦
In, in any culture I've ever gone to in
any part of the world, that would have
been taken as a sign of immense good
fortune if, if that showed up- Yeah,
it was ⦠in the middle of a ceremony.
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
It took us a while for our brains to
get there, and our sense of wanting to
control what we thought this should be.
Mm-hmm.
And so, you know, we're learning
all the time too, and how do you
learn to let go and be in the
moment, whatever that moment is.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Paula Hertel: And let go.
And our brain responds to
what we tell it, right?
And so if we feel like we're in fear, if
we feel like everything is going wrong,
if we feel like people are showing up with
love around us, we respond to, to that.
And our, our ability to interact and
connect is impacted by how we're feeling.
About our environment Couldn't, couldn't
Rupert Isaacson: agree more.
Outcomes.
Yes.
So when people contact us, you
know, say, "Okay, we want toâ¦"
We have three programs, right?
So if I engage in one of these thr- pr-
programs, what have the outcomes been?
And so we can say, "Well, look, if
it's Horse Boy method and young kids,
we have seen a lot of kids go from
non-verbal to verbal or non-communicati-
communicative to communicative," you
said unable to communicate or et cetera.
And then these are the family
outcomes that we've seen involved.
And then people might say, "Well, for
Movement Method," which is our one without
horses, you know, "What have those been?"
And we might say, "We see
a lot of neuroplasticity.
We see a, a great happiness and
joy frequently coming out of that
and cognitive abilities beyond
where they were, often reflected
in such things as ability to go
get a job or that sort of thing."
And if someone says, "Oh, with
TAKIN," that's our adult equine
program on the ground, was we say,
you know, "It's, it's usually the
healing of trauma and resilience.
That's what has been seen and
measured and observed and blah."
I won'tâ¦
But as you said, Nancy, we're not
saying you will now not be autistic.
Quite the opposite.
You're gonna be autistic for life,
but there are great gifts with this.
The outcomes of the autism can
therefore be very positive.
Or yes, you've had this trauma,
but now the outcomes of the
resilience that comes- Yeah
with the trauma c- can be and
perhaps will be very positive.
So in terms of your
outcomes, we're not, we'reâ¦
Let's not waste minutes saying,
"Okay, well, you know, they're still
gonna have the degenerative disease."
Yes, yes, yes, but we also know
neuroplasticity exists, and you
guys seem to be doing that and
dealing with the cortisol as well.
So let's talk about outcomes.
D- d- stories, says what,
what's, what's happening?
What have you observed?
What have youâ¦
Yeah.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo:
The outcomes are amazing.
What we, we've actually
term it activation.
Okay.
So once you get this diagnosis and you
go through this workshop, we're learning
about tools and presence and all the
things we've been talking about for the
past hour, and they take that with them.
And so because of that, it activates
individuals to start living again-
To go to the gym, eat healthy, go get
support, do whatever they can do to
modify the outcome and not just take a
diagnosis, go in the corner, take your
antidepressant, and wait till you die,
which is what it was when we started.
Okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: So that is one
of the things that we're very, very
inspired by, that we have story after
story of people that started going on
vacation again, going out to dinner, going
back to the gym becoming a vegetarian.
Whatever they decided they wanted
to do was their thing to activate
together a change in lifestyle.
And if it's one-third genetics
and two-thirds lifestyle, which is
what the science says now, then you
have the neuroplasticity, you have
all these tools to help you get
through this journey going forward.
Rupert Isaacson: Two-thirds lifestyle
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Correct.
Mm-hmm.
They change their vision, they change
their thought, they change their actions.
Just like I said, if you have diabetes or
you're pre-diabetic, are you gonna just
take it or are you gonna change, right?
So that's up to the individual of
how they're going to do that, but
the workshops seem to activate,
and we see people in their, their
presence, their posture, their ability
to verbal- verbalize their needs,
their ability to work together as a
pair and communicate without words.
That a horse teaches us, right?
And shows us how to do that.
And so we have all of these stories
of people that ⦠You know, one
gentleman I'm thinking of wouldn't
even come out of the house, and his
wife emailed us after going, "We
barely got him to the workshop."
And after ⦠And he was a brilliant,
brilliant scientist, so he was
just devastated with this, right?
And so he ⦠They started going
to the gym, they started traveling.
They modified their travel.
They went on cruises instead of, you
know, something that was very stressful.
And so they were able to live
again, and that is our goal.
That people live with this diagnosis,
live with dementia, and go on.
And perhaps, and as we've seen with quite
a few participants, it holds it still for
a while until everything else takes over
and the, you know, all the other health
issues that come with old age that, that
may or may not come with that individual.
Comorbidities will set in, and
then, you know, they ⦠But
they have a longer, happier life.
It's not a death sentence anymore,
like people used to think, as we see
in the movies, and all the negative
stereotypes about dementia that are
prevalent in every society worldwide.
And some cultures still think that,
you know, they're possessed or they're
witches or there's something else,
you know, going on with the person.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, this
happens with autism too.
Yeah.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Exactly.
So it's very, very similar.
And so we're able to provide some tools
on this journey that help them take
control of their lives again, even
after a diagnosis that's so devastating.
That doesn't mean it's
the end of your life.
So no matter what diagnosis, a parent with
autism or a, a, a a mother with dementia,
I mean, it's still the same thing, and
why can't it be the same for older adults?
Because the stigma of
ageism is so prevalent.
Why can't it be the same for
them as it would be for a child?
We have hope and activation
for children, but why can't
we have it for a 90-year-old?
Rupert Isaacson: Have you seen it
go further than, you know, hitting
the gym and taking a cruise?
Have you seen it manifest in
things like, "Okay, I'm actually
gonna write that novel."
You know, "I'm actually going to make
that-" creative, great thing which I have
been procrastinating for for 40 years.
You know, have you seen
that kind of thing as well?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Yes, we have.
We've had s- people just change
their lives and get back to living,
especially with young onset.
When they're getting a diagnosis
like this in their 60s or 50s- Mm
we really see more of a
change than someone who gets
it in late stage, over 85.
L- later in life, meaning.
Do you- But that might be just,
you know, many different factors
based on that individual.
Rupert Isaacson: I- is the first and
most important thing that you see that
the change is movement, more movement?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: We see
that in the workshop every time.
They're, they're exhausted
after the first one.
Mm.
We're walking around, and they're
moving, and they're not sitting in
front of the chair watching Oprah.
They're actually doing something, right?
And, and movement is life.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
And I think it's, it's no
one thing in the workshops.
It's a, it's, it's the
interconnectedness of everything.
And so you're calming the nervous system.
You're getting people moving.
You're creating a space where
people are accepted, and there's
unconditional desire to be in connection.
You're doing something new together.
You're, you're in a social environment.
And so all of those things together
and then we have an incredible group of
volunteers that take on the carer role.
And so if someone needs a chair, if people
need water, if, We always do some sort
of- ⦠food and gathering together.
All of that is sort of taken care of,
so people's day-to-day role of how they
identify themselves sort of diminish.
And so those roles and identity
of, of creativity and desire to
be of purpose can bubble back up.
So all of that together is what allows
for that energy of activation and
confidence to be curious about what your
life looks like and what you want your
life to look like has space to, to be.
Rupert Isaacson: You talk about your barn,
but I also heard you say one of our barns.
So when you say one of our barns, do you
mean that you've gone out and trained
a bunch of people how to do this- Mm
and it's now in a bunch of barns,
but you have a- an HQ at a barn where
you guys have your main practice?
Is th- is that the, the
pattern we're looking at?
Paula Hertel: Right.
So we, out of, out of research, we
found a barn that allows us to use
their horses and their facility to
run our program, and so we continue
to work and innovate at that barn.
Rupert Isaacson: That's your
laboratory, if you like.
That's-
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
Pardon me?
Rupert Isaacson: That's your laboratory.
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and then about- And
Rupert Isaacson: where is that barn?
Paula Hertel: That's in Pleasanton,
California called Five Star Equestrian.
Outside San
Rupert Isaacson: Francisco
⦠Paula Hertel: right outside of
San Francisco, and it's, it's
a unique and beautiful place.
It's actually a hunter jumper
student training barn, and so we
have the intergenerational piece.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Paula Hertel: And we have schooling horses
and competitive horses, and the women that
run that barn feel like we are enriching
the lives of the- their students, their
riders, and their horses by having this
continuum of interaction with, with
horses, which for, for equestrians and
people that are in that world, they'll
know how unique and rare that is that-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Paula Hertel: They don't care if a
participant is leading the horse from
the wrong side or the halter is not on
the right, the right hook and things like
that, and so it's just this beautiful
normalization of being with horses.
But about five years ago, Nancy and I
decided that really if this program is
gonna grow, we need to train more people
how to do that, and truthfully, it was
it was a letting go for us that took a
bit because this is our passion project.
This is our baby.
We worked really hard at it, and so how
do we align with people that wanna do
this work in a way that is non-judgmental,
that is not so outcome driven that there's
a right way and a wrong way to do it?
And it isn't for everybody, and so we
spent a, a couple of years developing a
training institute that we now will offer
to train other people in other barns
how to do this work so that it can grow.
Our, our dream is that we integrate this
into the whole view of how do we care
for, for older adults, for care partners,
and for people living with dementia,
which includes Western medicine and other
social supports and that your doctor will
write a prescription of come to the barn.
You know, that's, that's, that's
our dream, that we allow, allow
the interactions for this kind of
therapeutic work and the, the role
of the horse in society becomes
more accessible to more people.
Rupert Isaacson: How many people, how
many barns, how many organizations
have you trained to date would you say?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Oh, goodness So we
have- We train individuals that aren't
necessarily with a barn, but at this
point we have a hor- horse rescue barn
that we work with which is kind of the
island of misfit toys, if you will.
Mm-hmm.
And so there's a lot of different horses.
We don't know their history, but
they're, they're doing very well there.
And we have PATH, the therapeutic
riding barns- Mm ⦠on the East
Coast and in Nevada, and we are in
dialogue with many other barns to,
to be able to bring this program.
It takeâ¦
It's free.
We didn't want any barrier to entry
to anyone being in the program, and so
therefore it takes a village, meaning
we have to have a lot of volunteers that
have to help run this program, and so
getting the infrastructure in the barn.
When, when you say it's free,
Rupert Isaacson: the service is free or
if someone wants to get trained it's free?
Do they not pay you for a- The
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: service, they pay
to go through a training, but then we
have to work with them to set up their
barn and their volunteers and make sure,
as Paula said, it's not for everyone.
If they wanna teach horsemanship,
this is not our program.
Mm.
And so it's really finding
the right fit for us.
But the, the, there is no charge.
We raise money for the program for any
participant with a diagnosis- So if
it- ⦠and their family to come through.
Rupert Isaacson: But- To your barn
or to the barns that you've trained?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: To any barn.
Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody- It's
part of our mission ⦠let's, let's
say somebody comes to my place and
I've gone through your training Do you
pay me to deliver the service to them?
Or wh- when ⦠So how is it free for
that, So it's not- ⦠service user?
So
Paula Hertel: part of our mission is
that we want participants that come
to any barn that offers this program
t- for it to be free, so that the-
Right ⦠barrier to entry is very low.
So one of the things that we are
always working out for our own
organization and for our partners
is, how do you raise money- Yeah
so that you can pay-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
⦠Paula Hertel: for keeping your horses
and training your own facility.
So you help
Rupert Isaacson: people to fundraise.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Which is- Well,
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: our, our research
certainly helps with that, is because
the other programs that are out there,
you'll see them on the internet.
I just read an article last night in
London, which people go take from a senior
home, they go and pet a horse, and they
go and spend the time with the horse.
We don't, we don't wanna do that.
That's a very good program, but we
wanna have the skills over a three-week
time period so that they have something
to take with them on this journey.
Okay.
So it's not a one and done type
of model, just like yours, Rupert.
It takes some time-
Yeah ⦠to really get there.
And so th- that is why we find the
right barns that partner with us.
We speak at organizations a- about it.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just trying to get
my head around the economics, 'cause
a lot of the people- Right ⦠that
listen to this show obviously
are running therapeutic barns.
And I'm sure- Mm ⦠a lot of them are
gonna go, "Wow, I'd like to get that
training and add that to my program."
I think anyone in their right mind
would, having listened to you.
I'm, I know I would.
So the question is, though everyone has
their own economic model, when we, when
we were first back in the early days
with Horse Boy Method, because we didn't
charge at our first place at New Trails,
I, it was very important for me to give
my services for free because I had been
so broke, and I knew that so many parents
were in the position that I'd been in.
However, so, so I, I personally fundraised
so that I could give complimentary
services, but- I knew that that was not
the position that most of the people I
was training was in, so I didn't want
to make them feel they had to do that.
I said, "No, that's just what we do.
But if you have a different economic model
where people pay to come in the door,
then obviously it's working, then do that.
Or if you, if you can get things
paid for by insurance, do that."
So now subsequently, I, I actually
think I was, I was a bit mistaken.
Looking back 15 years, I think that many
people that had used our services didn't
actually value them, and developed a sense
of entitlement that actually sometimes
stood between them and better outcomes.
And now I won't do that anymore.
But what I do do is I give scholarships.
So if I know that somebody is in
real economic straits, then I'm not
gonna let money stand in the way.
But I'mâ¦
But I am going to say there
has to be an exchange.
But also these days are, 15
years ago, no insurance company
would pay for what we do.
Now, many do.
Things have changed.
So it, you know, it, it, it's
easier for people, et cetera.
So when people are, are listening, you
know, they- they're running their program,
they say, "Well, I'd like to do your thing
with Connected Horse, but I, I need to
charge people to come through the door."
Is that okay?
I mean, can they still do that?
Paula Hertel: For, for us, what we've
found, I think, think about something
that's so new, and, and doing this
work with the population that we
serve in the United States is new.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And
Paula Hertel: so if ⦠So we always
say, you know, donation-based, and
oftentimes get donations from people.
But what we found, and, and it
doesn't mean a partner barn isn't
gonna find something totally
different 'cause they live right in
the middle of horse country, say.
What we found is that if we say, "Here's
the charge for it," and it's new and
people don't understand what they're
really getting into at the moment, they'll
say, "No, I'm not gonna do that now."
And so for us, it isn't so much the
money, it's creating barriers of
entry to try something that may be
beneficial to, to our participants.
We don't want money to be a piece of,
to, to be the, a part of that barrier.
If we had a partner barn that
said, "It's not a barrier.
We have seven families that we, that
have already been part of our network
that are willing to pay," we wouldn't
say, "No, that's absolutely not working."
What we found is because
people don't understand it
yet, they don't know about it.
They don't know enough about the value
to, to put money to it, and they're so
stressed out about all these other things.
So I'm so- My
Rupert Isaacson: intuition tells
me that you are right on the cusp
of the change point with that.
The
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: stigma- Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the stigma, so it's not
about starting the program,
Rupert, it's about- Mm
getting people to the program.
There's so much stigma
around this diagnosis.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
People aren't going, "Oh- They don't want
to give you the excuse ⦠I'm gonna go
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: identify myself-
Rupert Isaacson: Got it
⦠Nancy Schier Anzelmo: that I
have a, a memory problems."
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that is part of why our mission-
That makes sense ⦠is this way,
because they're not just like, "Hey."
But now we, we have seen a change in
the last, you know, five, 10 years,
that people living with dementia
are speaking, going out and- Well,
yeah ⦠being on boards and all that.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just starting where you were
15 years ago, and also- Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: No, I hear you.
I hear you ⦠today.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
When you're in the
prototype phase, Exactly
yeah, it, it's a different dynamic.
Yeah.
But I, I have a feeling, my feeling is
exactly what you just said, Nancy, that
we're right on the cusp of something
different that- Yes ⦠as things
become ever more inclusive, I mean,
that is, it's very easy to get depressed
about how society is going until one,
you know, has these conversations.
Then you realize- Right ⦠oh,
actually, no, maybe it's actually, you
know, many good things are happening.
And this is one of them.
If, if, if people are no
longer feeling stigmatized-
Mm-hmm
⦠then I think that, yeah- Y- wh- wh-
and when something becomes economically
viable because people accept its value,
it usually means that people have
accepted the values that it's addressing.
And that seems to be
about where you're at.
It's quite exciting, this conversation.
You seem to be right on a, on a cusp here.
What I would- We are part of a- Go ahead.
Paula Hertel: Like, just one more thing.
We are part of a, a movement that
has been quite active in Europe for a
while, but is starting to gain a fair
amount of steam in the United States
called social prescribing, which is-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Paula Hertel: simply that, that the
outcomes from social grassroots programs
like ours, like hiking like cooking
together, like support groups, like
village models, actually can help improve
traditional healthcare models outcomes.
And so, there is a, a group that
we are a part of that is looking
at what, what do we measure in
terms of outcomes that healthcare
systems will understand and value.
And so we're really excited about it.
We're, we're, we're part of an
early pilot with Kaiser Permanente.
And we are part of this whole program
that is looking at equine-assisted
services, at art, at music, at movement
at, at social clubs, and healthcare,
that it, that they d- it doesn't have
to be one or the other, that again,
health is this sort of broad continuum,
Rupert Isaacson: and
it's- What do you know?
Human culture is good for humans.
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
It might not.
There's many paths in the forest.
So, so part of what we do is
like, let's not push against
a system and say- Oh, yeah.
Yeah ⦠that's bad.
Yeah.
And instead of, let's be at the table
and start the dialogue about the sort
of, you know, improv model of yes
and, not, not no and not yes but.
But so it's yes and.
Yes, there's some really interesting
clinical trials, and yes, there's some
longevity healthcare that, that Western
healthcare that has really helped
people live longer and better lives,
and there's these social prescribing
models that are, that are beneficial,
that if we were collaborating together,
how beautiful that would be for humans.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
C- yes.
The, the social prescribing
can also enhance longevity.
Yes.
And that if you have longevity without
social prescribing, the quality of life
may not be worth having those extra years.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
So yeah, sitting, as you say,
sitting in the corner with your
antidepressants is not an acceptable-
Not living I would like to be part
of helping it go to the next stage.
So we, we talked about this in
our preamble that we had the
other week, but also would like
listeners and viewers to know this.
So our organization, New Trails Learning
Systems, which is Horse Boy Method,
Movement Method, and Taking, we have every
two years a neuroscience conference that
we're invited to do at Eastern Virginia
Medical School which is old Vgi- Old
Dominion University in Virginia, their
medical school, that they invite us to
come in and do a neuroscience conference.
And so we're talking '26, so that
will be in September of this year.
But in '28 we will be
looking for speakers.
It takes us two years to get them
together, these things, and I
would very, very much like you guys
to be coming and speaking there
because you're speaking to doctors.
Thank you.
The, the whole point about this
conference is that we, i- it's
not just our own programs that
the doctors end up prescribing.
We pull in as many others as we can find
that we see are doing good things, and
we try to give a platform to, you know,
rising tide lifts all ships, blah, blah.
But I think all of us have
been kind of at this for-
Yeah
⦠a couple of decades, and have
seen the outcomes that we've seen.
And, you know, you know how it was one
of the reasons I, I do this show is
that when I first got into this, all
the programs were incredibly vicious and
fragmented and jealous of each other,
and worried, coming from the scarcity
mentality that if your organization
got money, then my organization might
not get money, and blah, blah, blah.
And I was very depressed by this
when I first came in, 'cause
I came in as a, as a parent.
And I was like, "Wow, you guys don't
give a shit about, you know, you just
give a shit about getting this money.
And maybe you started with
this good, but right now youâ¦
and now you're trash-talking
each other, and how's, how's
this helping people like my son?"
You know?
Now, it's gotten a lot better.
We've still got a little ways to go.
And I think that if we're gonna be taken
seriously by the medical establishment
and so on, we need to stop bickering.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, the doctors bicker
amongst themselves, and academia
bickers among the therapists.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
But we need to bicker less,
and we certainly need to bicker
less loudly and less obviously.
Because of course what started with
a lot of a very opinionated people in
horse barns, and we know that horsey
people are very opinionated people,
including myself, guilty as charged.
But that's really immature behavior when
it comes to the responsibilities that
we end up bearing for the populations
we end up working with and representing.
We just can't do that anymore.
And- ⦠you know what I mean?
So, so I- Well,
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: we, in the past
barns, all of those barns that are
therapeutic or EGALA, either one,
we ask the same question, "Why do
you only serve children or adults?
Why don't you serve older adults?"
It's a huge segment of our
population that's growing and
growing with the boomers aging.
Yes, it's
Rupert Isaacson: true.
It is, yeah.
Why would
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: we not be
serving older adults as well-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Nancy Schier Anzelmo: in a, in a
place that's already established
to serve children and adults?
And don't you think it might be good for
Rupert Isaacson: those little
autistic kids that are coming
through- Exactly ⦠to have a
grandma and a grandpa in the program?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Right.
Right.
Have all 10 of them.
Bring the village back together.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's, that's where our question
is still there to your listeners,
like, "Why wouldn't we serve?"
"Oh, it's scary," or,
"They might fall," orâ¦
Well, anyone can, but they're
already set up for that, so it
seems like a pretty good fit to us.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
And so much of that is of course to do
with how you prepare your horses and how
you prepare- Right ⦠your environment
and all of the above things which I know
that you guys go into in your training.
But yes, I, I think too because
therapeutic riding started either
with kids or with people returning
from the war, which is, you know,
when it boomed after World War II, it
was mostly people coming back either
with shell shock or missing limbs.
And the missing limbs people without
shell shock just wanted to ride, perhaps
they had been riders, and then it became
about adaptive riding, therapeutic riding.
And then the people with shell
shock, people saw, okay, there's
a mental, emotional component
here, et cetera, and it sort of
went in those two different ways.
But I think so much of it, and then,
and then it- riding for the disabled
in the UK was sort of aligned with Pony
Club, so it just automatically ended
up going for a younger population.
All of that is totally understandable
chronologically and historically, but
as you say, have we not developed?
Have we not
Are we still stuck in 1975?
I don't think so.
You know.
And in fact, it's the people from
1975 that we should be serving.
That's
right.
Yeah.
So, I, I find your work really exciting.
Look, we've hit the two-hour
mark, and I think what most people
are, are going to be thinking
is, "Okay, guys, we're convinced.
How do we find out about it?"
You know.
So, how do we contact Nancy
and Paula for a training?
What do we need to do?
Just give us the plugs.
Paula Hertel: Yeah, I mean, the easiest
thing to do is go to the website.
It's all on there, which
is connectedhorse.org.
And you can email us, it's
paula@connectedhorse.org
or nancy@connectedhorse.org.
It's probably the two best things.
But we have our workshops, we have
a sensory engagement program, which
is bringing the barn to people,
and we have our training institute.
So those are the three platforms
that you'll find on the website.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Now, that's of course sitting, people
sitting California, my friend Joelle's
sitting in California, you're in
California, Kansas City in California.
I'm actually talking to you from Spain,
and a lot of people will be listening, you
know, from Croatia or Korea or wherever.
Mm-hmm.
So if people are not in the US
and not in your hood how are
they gonna engage with this?
Paula Hertel: Well, the training, we
have online training, and Nancy leads
a monthly coaching call, which is
really bringing all the facilitators
together, and it's peer-to-peer learning,
which is a beautiful group of people
that we affectionately call our herd.
Mm-hmm ⦠and so that's an opportunity.
And we are really committed to working
with people across the globe, and I
think being at the Alzheimer's Disease
International Conference with 60 countries
represented was a wake-up call for
all of us to just realize that it is,
it is the collective, like you said.
Like, we, we can get so siloed, and
that doesn't help anybody, and so how
do we continue having the conversation?
And so let's keep talking.
We have colleagues in Australia,
and we have, now have you in
Spain, and a bit of Germany.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Paula Hertel: London.
And we have people in the UK.
And so, we're a very creative
group of people that will figure
out how to, how to work with you.
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
I think so listen, lads, that's a-
a- addressing viewers and listeners,
so it's connectedhorse.org.
That's, there's no hyphen in there,
there's no underscore in there.
Connected horse.
Amazing that that URL
actually still existed.
You'd have thought someone
would've had that 20 years ago.
Connectedhorse.org.
They can contact you there for
figuring out their online trainings.
They can also come to you for
you know, live workshops if they
get, if they can come stateside.
Does it have to be California,
or you do them around the US?
Paula Hertel: We've done California,
Nevada, and West Virginia.
So we try to do one or two a year
where people come, can come from
anywhere to come participate.
Can
Rupert Isaacson: they, can you accommodate
quite a large group of people, or
are these quite small workshops?
Paula Hertel: I think 20
is the biggest we've done.
20.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I'm also just wondering if, yeah, if
you, you might wanna come and do one
attached to one of the ones I'm doing.
'Cause I'm, I'm frequently in,
like I'll be in next month doing
a bunch of trainings in Michigan,
Chicago, Indianapolis area, which
is quite a good area 'cause it's,
you know, it's very central.
Mm-hmm.
I'll be back, I'll be over in
New England in in the fall.
I know Kansas and I are gonna do
stuff in, in California in the spring.
But I think it, what might be really
nice sometimes is sometimes as part
of another training- Mm-hmm ⦠you
know, I could say, "Oh, listen, there's
actually these really cool ladies over
here that are doing this stuff with
this other population, which I think
you might benefit from knowing about.
So maybe you could come in and
do like a, a sample thing or a
demo or-" Yeah ⦠Zoom in, you
know, when we're doing something.
I think it, I think we guys need,
we just need to be collaborating
much more in this way.
Great ⦠you know, w- Great.
Thank you ⦠when, when I'm training
people in my methods, I'm always
saying, "Don't just do my method.
You know, do a bunch."
Mm-hmm.
'Cause a whole bunch of tools, right?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Absolutely.
More tools in the toolbox to help people.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And that,
that's a- So we're open to
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: that, Rupert.
Thank you for this opportunity to be
on your podcast today and be able to
talk about this innovative program.
It doesn't feel new to us.
It's, we're in year, oh, 11 now,
but, but we have really been kind of,
we're very tenacious, and we fight,
and we want to be, this program to
be everywhere across the globe- Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: to help
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: people.
And that is- I'd
like- ⦠what keeps us going
⦠Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to
see you at the HETI conferences
and that, that sort of thing.
I th- I think it, it's needed.
It's, it's, it's about time.
Yes.
Thank you ⦠I, I will see
if I can pull some strings.
Yeah.
Okay.
We, we
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: appreciate you.
Thanks.
This was fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise.
Thank you for letting us tell
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: this,
Paula Hertel: tell our story.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Thank you very much.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
absolutely my pleasure.
I think what we should
also do is do this again.
So maybe in 12 months or so,
come on the show again, and I'd
like to know where it's gone,
you know, what more has come out.
Because I, I think this is something that
doesn't, we shouldn't do as one and done.
Oh, that was the old
people episode, you know?
Yeah,
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: exactly.
Do you know what I
Rupert Isaacson: mean?
Nancy Schier Anzelmo:
We're all the old people.
We're getting there too.
So exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Gray hairs.
We need to
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: look at the
whole population and serving everyone.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: You know?
Yeah In different
Rupert Isaacson: programs.
And it's hilarious, isn't it, 'cause,
I mean, most of the people running
the larger programs out there are
usually now in their 60s, you know?
Yeah.
Because, you know, you, you, you need
to have been around for a while before
you, you, you can, and now they're
all looking towards their last- Yeah
if they're lucky, four decades.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Paula Hertel: Better for all of us.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Paula Hertel: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friends.
Well, thank you so much.
All right.
Thank you.
Connectedhorse.org.
Contact Paula, contact Nancy.
Let them give you their technologies.
All right, my friends.
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: All right.
See you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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