Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Healthy Wealth Experience - Where Financial Success Meets Personal Wellbeing
Host Chris Hall combines 30+ years in finance with wellness expertise to help entrepreneurs and professionals build wealth without sacrificing their health. From investment strategies to money management, we offer advice to make financial success more sustainable.
New episodes every week
📈 Market Analysis with a Wellness Twist
💪 Entrepreneur Health & Wealth Stories
🎯 Practical Money + Mindset Strategies
Join 323K+ people transforming their relationship with money and health.
Chris Hall (00:36)
Hello and welcome to the Healthy Wealth Experience. I am your host Chris Hall and I have a special guest today, Dr. David Kelly, who is the chief global strategist and head of global market insights at JP Morgan's Asset Management. Welcome to the show, David.
David Kelly (00:52)
Very glad to be here, Chris.
Chris Hall (00:53)
All right, thank you so much. So one of the reasons that we have David on the show, obviously he has a lot of great insight about the market, but he's also a marathon runner and we thought that was such a correlation for the healthy wealth, right? It's not just about wealth, it's also about health and so that's one of the reasons we asked him to reach out to David and he was nice enough to oblige. So let's start with the obvious, like where are you from, sir?
David Kelly (01:15)
I'm from Ireland and I grew up in Dublin.
I've been running all my life apart from everything else I do. But I started out running because I used to play rugby, but I'm really not big and beefy enough to play rugby. so at one stage we had the good fortune to have a New Zealand rugby coach teach us. And he took one look at the slobby bunch of us and sent us out in a long run. And at that point, I decided, I really actually kind of like long distance running. That's kind of, you know, it's fun. It's kind of my Zen thing. Although I'm not not kick, you know, cut out for rugby. So I
Really, you know, since a teenager I've been running and, you know, the last 10 years I took up marathon running so that's been kind of fun.
Chris Hall (01:55)
Yeah. So it's funny that you started in rugby and ended up in running where I, so I coach football and I've been around football a long time. And sometimes we run so much. think like, sometimes I think we are like a running team with like a pair of cleats. So it's nice how they go hand in hand. So we're going to talk about, we're going talk about you're running. We're going to talk about the markets. So if you're listening right now, we're definitely get some insights on what's going on in the market. What David thinks is,
David Kelly (02:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Hall (02:22)
something we should be looking for, things like that. But I definitely want to spend a little bit of time on the health side of it as well. so obviously, you're very busy operating at a high level. How do you find time to get your runs in and things like that? Because you're not just getting 20 minutes on the treadmill. I you're a marathon runner. So you're getting tons of runs in.
David Kelly (02:43)
That's right. The first thing I do is I control my own schedule. ⁓ Nobody has access to my calendar.
at least the general organization has to have access to my calendar. so, you know, when I plan trips, if I'm going to be overnight somewhere, I always sort of make sure the first meeting isn't too early and figure out running routes. just, you know, pack the running shoes and the gear and just go out for a long run. it's, know, I don't wear headphones. I've traveled all over the world. And it's actually one of the nicest ways to see a city, because instead of doing all the tourist traps, you just run around the
and you just bump into ordinary people from Chile or Japan or whatever as you're running around the streets. But I make it a priority. And I tell this to my team also, I'm not looking for you to put in the most number of hours. looking for you to give us the best possible output. And if your ideas come to you when you're running, and a lot of ideas come to me when I'm running, that's all to the good. It's looking after your personal health.
can actually help you be much better at your job.
Chris Hall (03:42)
No, I totally agree with that. When I first started as a financial advisor, I was like working 6 a.m. into 6 p.m. Monday through Friday. I was going out on the weekends. I was actually knocking on doors because that's what they did back then and doing the whole thing. And I remember I was building my business pretty rapidly and enjoying it. But in the same respect, I probably was never as unhealthy as I was during that moment. that that's I'd say was about six months in. And I went, you know, I've got to change this.
And ⁓ I ended up just going back to the gym and like you said, just prioritizing it, making it part of my schedule. And I found that even though I had less production hours, I was more productive in those hours. I think.
David Kelly (04:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, that's right.
I think it's a very important part of being a human. As I said, I took up marathon running about 10 years ago. And I remember going for a very long run with this professor out of Harvard who is a evolutionary biologist.
that's actually not an exact word or phrase, sorry, evolutionary anthropologist. And he was talking about just how our distant ancestors used to go out in long runs. I they run in groups chasing after the wilder beast or whatever. And the one thing that humans were very good at doing was very slow, long distance running. We are really built for slow, long distance running. it's the modern world doesn't put that opportunity in front of us. But if we do it.
is, you know, it helps the whole pile of health conditions, brings down your blood pressure, clears your mind, gives you a certain sense of peace. It's really something that humans should do because we're really built to do that.
Chris Hall (05:13)
Yeah, yeah. So when you say running like long distances, so you started out, you know, just running and now you're running marathons. What's your average run like today? Like what do you like if you go out like if you go out three or four times a week? What do you usually put in?
David Kelly (05:25)
Yeah.
Well, usually I have one run that's longer than the others. And if I'm training for a marathon, then that long run builds up to ⁓ peak of 20 miles. But in a normal week, I'd run five or six miles three or four times during the week and then run like 10 miles on a Saturday. And that's kind of what I do. most of it's really slow, but I always put in a tempo run or interval training or something just to sort of speed things up and give my system a bit of a kick in the rear end, which it needs.
But most of it's so. People are so running Bill's mitochondria, it just gives you energy. It's something I like just as much as I like strategy in the economy.
Chris Hall (06:04)
How often do you go for a run? Do you go out every day?
David Kelly (06:08)
About no, not every day about five days a week You know if you if you go for a very long run or if you do tempo training or something That's kind of stressful. You do kind of have to back off the next day and just let the old muscles You know and the muscles are getting older So I have to I have to respect your body and just just let it relax Even though I'd like to go out for another run, but now I got it I got a back off the bat for five times a week
Chris Hall (06:23)
haha
Okay, all right. that's great.
That's great. And then so when it comes to, you know, like wealth management and things like that, do you feel like it gives you an edge to have the the cardiovascular health that you have the the you know, the flexibility to kind of get up and go?
David Kelly (06:45)
Well, it does in a few ways. mean, first of all, I have to in my job, I sometimes have very stressful days in New York where I'm going from one meeting to another meeting and I've got five minutes between this and two minutes between that. And I'm literally running from meeting to meeting and dealing with all the things. It gives you the energy, just a sheer energy to go through the day and not be completely beaten to a pulp at the end. And also, you I travel and I sort of fight the US airline system, the international airline system.
And if you get in late at night, all of these things, you because you get older having base high, you know what the doctors would call a high VO two max really actually allows you to endure this without just knocking you for a loop. It also, you know, obviously prevents you getting as many illnesses, colds and that's that's a very if you do do a lot of public speaking like I do getting a cold is just the most miserable thing because without your voice you got nothing. So it's so I think it's it's it's
Chris Hall (07:40)
Right.
David Kelly (07:42)
It's actually very important for me to do my job well.
Chris Hall (07:45)
Yeah, that's great. you also watch what you eat or are you more of like, I do this so I don't have to do that?
David Kelly (07:51)
No, both of them. you know, I think I'm kind of unique in my family because everybody else sort of reenjoys the tasteless and tasted that. And I do think about food as a little bit as fuel. I mean, I'm...
Chris Hall (08:03)
Mm-hmm.
David Kelly (08:03)
I'm a morning person, so I always get up and have, you know, lots of oatmeals and raisins and skim milk and all that stuff. I'm pretty careful about it, but I don't feel like it's a burden to me. feel like it's like when you're filling up your car with gas, you're going to put in the expensive stuff, you're to put in the cheap stuff, and I'm to put the expensive stuff in. You know, it's my body. I'm not going to mistreat it. I try to be mindful about not filling myself.
myself with stuff that's just not good for me.
Chris Hall (08:34)
I love that. That's great. Well, I mean, and obviously because of your job, you have to be a morning person, really.
David Kelly (08:39)
⁓ Yeah, I mean I've seen both but it works well for me and I get up at five pretty much every morning and I just start writing before the phones start ringing or anybody needs to bother me. I just start writing and thinking and that's how I get things done.
Chris Hall (08:53)
So how did you become the chief global strategist and head of global market insights for JP Morgan? What does a pathway like that look like?
David Kelly (09:02)
Well, it's a bit of a winding road. was always in, my father was a politician in Ireland. I thought I was originally going to go into politics, but he was a lawyer and although he's a very skilled public speaker, he didn't really have any particular background in economics. And I sort of felt like, well, I can't go into politics unless I know some economics. So I then did an undergraduate degree in economics and then I felt like, I still don't know anything about economics. So then I did a PhD in economics over in America and in Michigan. then I met my wife.
while I was studying and got my PhD from Michigan State.
And so then I decided to stay here. so I became an economist, worked for an economic consulting firm. Then I worked for the Boston Company Economic Advisors, which was taken over by Lehman Brothers. Then I worked for Putnam Investments in Boston. And then just before the financial crisis started in January 1st of 2008, I moved over to JPMorgan as a strategist. so lots of twists and turns along the way.
Chris Hall (09:56)
Yeah.
Did you, I mean, is that something you thought you would want to do or just kind of like you just kept moving through economics and it just became more like, this is where I'm going to go? how did you feel like, I mean, that's not something people grow up and say, I want to be the chief global strategist, you know.
David Kelly (10:13)
No, no. So I've always been interested in economics because economics is just another lens, a way of looking at the world. You can look at the world through anthropology or biology or physics or chemistry for that matter.
or political analysis, but I look at it through economic analysis. And I think you can see a lot of what goes on in the world. You can understand a lot about how the world works by understanding economics. So I found it fascinating anyway. And it can also be helpful to people if you tell people the right thing to do versus the wrong thing to do, just like financial advice. But over time, you know, I did a PhD in economics. I could have gone on taught, but I realized I need to feed a family and people don't pay people for economic advice. It has to have some point. And so I realized quite quickly that the way that
that the point that people would pay for is investment strategy. And so at that point I sort of pivoted and worked on the investment side of economic analysis. And that's really what I've been doing ever since.
Chris Hall (11:06)
Yeah, that's great. That's great. I mean, it's really, and I spoke off the air with you, know, like I watch your stuff and you're on like CNBC quite a bit, Yeah.
David Kelly (11:14)
Yeah,
I've been doing it for a long time. They're very nice bunch of people and we get to talk about this. And the thing about economics and finance is it always changes. A story is different. Every week you start off with a slightly different story, you just got to interpret what's going on. So it's always interesting.
Chris Hall (11:31)
Yeah. So let's actually dig into that a little bit. You know, I just saw something, you know, like a month ago from you, you know, talking about how the market seems to not be paying attention to some of the factors that are out there. And it just kind of keeps going up. But then of course, you know, in the last week or so it's down, you know, two or 3%. Do you feel like the market is catching up to the data or do you feel like
David Kelly (11:43)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Chris Hall (11:54)
Do you feel like that's what's happening right now or is it like more of a blip type of a thing?
David Kelly (11:59)
Well, think this, you know, I talked earlier about the different lenses looking at the world, but there are really three different ways you could look at things right now. You could look at the world, the US, in terms of consumer confidence, and it has rarely been worse. The University of Michigan Index consumer sentiment for early November was 50.3, and there's only one month in the last 50 years that was lower than that. So people feel pretty miserable about where things are. They think the economy is falling apart, and they think their personal economy is just miserable.
You could then look at the economy itself, which I would argue is boring, but reasonably healthy. I mean, it's I'd give it sort of a C minus in terms of its actual health. And then and then you look at the market, which is all sort of champagne and bubbles. And it's and I think what's going on here is there's been a disconnect between the market and the economy for a long time and it's growing. And the reason for that disconnect, I think, is a lot to do with actually the way people invest and the Federal Reserve. I think over time, the Federal Reserve cut rates to very low levels.
that starts asset prices rising. And then once asset prices have gone up enough, people face a rather interesting capital gains dilemma. They've got all these embedded capital gains, but if it's not in a tax protected account, if they sell, they have to write a check immediately to Uncle Sam for the capital gains. If on the other hand they hold on,
and they pass it on to their heirs, for example, which would be the case for many people, the basis resets and nobody ever has to pay the capital gains tax. So it's really hard to make the decision to get out of the market. It's pretty easy to make a decision to get into the market.
Another thing that's happened is, you years ago there used to be a lot of defined benefit pension plans and these were run by fiduciaries who'd rebalance all the time. Now it's all defined contribution and people are rebalancing their 401ks. You know, if it's going up, it's going up and they just leave it. But that means you're getting more and more of a concentration in these tech names. Again, there's more and more money going into the markets. It's like a stuck valve. Money can go in, but it's really hard to come out. And I think that's why the market's been outperforming the economy.
Chris Hall (13:51)
Right, right, yeah. And so, you know, like as a financial advisor, one of the things I do quite a bit is I try to rebalance people, you know what mean? So like when the market's down, you know, we try to pull some money out of their, you know, their bonds portfolio. And then, you know, I call it the war chest. That's not insignified. That's not something I invented, but I just really like doing that, calling it that. And then, you know, and then when the market's doing really well, like it is, you know, right now, you know,
this is another time to rebalance, to pull money out of the market and put it into bonds. And again, not all of it or anything like that. ⁓ So you're finding that just people aren't rebalancing on the way up. They're just kind of ignoring it and letting it ride.
David Kelly (14:28)
Well, yeah, the...
They don't because it's tricky. mean you do have to find if you can some tax efficient way of doing it. So I always tell people, sorry not, I tell people but also in my own case I always treat fresh money with the greatest of respect because this is the money that I can actually use to rebalance without having to pay capital gains tax. So any bit of money that comes to me that isn't already embedded capital gains I try to put on the other side of the ship to try and rebalance it. ⁓
Part
of it of course is about getting better returns in long run, but a lot of it is just about risk mitigation. want to make sure that, because I know the market is down a bit this week and we'll see what it is next week and we don't know.
But sooner or later, there's going to be a big bear market. And you know not the hour or the day, but you do know the location. Location of a bear market is always centered on the area of the biggest froth and frenzy in the first place. And so if that's where you're overweight, that's what you're trying to reduce your exposure to by increasing your exposure to other things. And that's what obviously I try and do.
Chris Hall (15:19)
Hahaha
Right. And obviously you're referring to, you know, one of the questions that everybody has right now is where are we in an AI bubble? You know, is that where we're at with the conditions of the market, where they are?
David Kelly (15:42)
Yep.
Yeah, it's really interesting. mean, I don't think it's a 2008 situation because in 2008, the way the housing finance was interconnected with the global economy and the sort of derivative trades around it really left the entire banking system vulnerable, as we saw, obviously, with the collapse of Lehman Brothers. that turned what should have been a housing correction into a global financial crisis. I don't think we have that problem.
I don't think it's quite the same as the internet bubble, although it's quite like, but it's not exactly the same as the internet bubble of 1999 because then you're dealing with a lot of little companies who didn't have any cash flow. They didn't even have an office cash. They just had people looking at their internet screen. so these were very vulnerable companies. And so when they went down, they went down. In this case, this boom in...
in AI investment is being powered by some of the most profitable companies the world has ever seen. I would argue the most profitable companies the world has ever seen. And so they've got tremendous free cash flow anyway to pump into all this capital spending, all these data centers, the purchase of all this electricity. And that can keep this ball rolling for some time. However,
I don't think that all of these companies have got a clear vision as to exactly who is going to pay for what in terms of AI services five years from now. And that's really the crux of problem. Some of this stuff is really useful.
I think, for example, the uses of AI and radiology can be very useful to the human race. Other things like, I mean, I'm sure if I ask ChatGBT to give me the best possible blueberry tort recipe, that all the computers in the desert will be whirring away, consuming vast quantities of electricity to give me that answer. But it's not actually a useful answer. And the question is, how many things can this somewhat
infantile AI do. It's a different kind of machine. We think about machines as being very narrow but very precise, like a calculator. But that's not what AI is. AI is very broad but kind of flaky.
Chris Hall (17:49)
Mm-hmm.
David Kelly (17:49)
And
you know, can give you a completely wrong answer because consensus happens to be wrong answer and it's and they will try and refine it, but we're not there yet. And so I think I think the real question is, will there be a genuine stream of revenue that is sufficient to pay for the incredible amount of physical investment that's going on around building out this AI infrastructure? And if there isn't that investment, then somebody is going to go to the wall. Now, you know, the one the two lessons from the from the
bubble and the dot-com bubble. One is that you can lose a whole lot of money by betting on the wrong companies or by not being diversified. know that I mean I always remember that between between 2000 and 2002 the S &P 500 fell about 50 percent, the NASDAQ fell by 80 percent and there's a big difference between an 80 percent drop and a 50 percent drop and so I think people need to need to think about that.
And so, but also, even though that boom went bust, there was something real there. I mean, the internet did change our lives and change the world. And some of the companies that were booming before then are still booming today. Most of them aren't.
but some of them turned out to be these extraordinary financial winners. And so I think there'll be some extraordinary winners too, but there'll be some losers and there's probably gonna be a boom and a bust in between. And so that's why you have to sort of be careful about how you place AI bets and don't just buy it all hype.
Chris Hall (19:13)
Yeah, I think that's a really good example. I actually have a good personal example of how I got beat up pretty good in the dot com bubble. Do you remember a company called Juno? Yeah, so I remember Juno was just rising one day. I'm very young investor at this time. It was just crushing it. And so I actually put money in. was like $28. I bought it at $58 in one day.
David Kelly (19:22)
Yep. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Hall (19:34)
By the end of that day, closed at $78. I made $2,000. again, I'm not an early investor, so that was a lot of money. But I made $2,000 that day. And then the next morning, we woke up, and it was literally opened at $58. So I was like, oh, well, I didn't make any money, but I didn't lose any money. Fast forward through the whole dot com bolo. That was never a very profitable company. They basically were worthless. And I ended up selling it for $1,000.
David Kelly (19:56)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Hall (20:00)
the capital losses to offset some of my other games. think a share price was like one one thousandth of a penny or something by the time I was done with it.
David Kelly (20:03)
Yeah.
I suppose it's the way, mean given if as soon as we do have bus people will be able to deal with the capital gains, their embedded capital gains problem. Well, that's and the market is going to have a rebalancing for you if you don't do it yourself.
Chris Hall (20:14)
That's a very glass half full attitude.
Right,
right. So that's a good question. What are you suggesting people do at this point? Obviously, you have capital gains, and that's something that they're going to have to just figure out. But let's just talk about qualified accounts, 401Ks, IRAs, defined benefit like we talked about earlier. If you're a normal 80-20 guy, let's say you have 80 % of your money in the stock market, 20 % of your money in the bond market.
David Kelly (20:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Hall (20:48)
⁓ Is this a good time to kind of like go ratchet down to like 75 25 or should you go down even further than that? Should you start, you know pulling back even more than that? What's your thoughts on that?
David Kelly (20:59)
I
think that's, mean, that split would be, I would regard it as a little aggressive if you're in retirement, but if you're younger, you're younger, no problem. But I think the real question isn't really the bond stock split, it's switch stocks. Because if you look, the mega cap growth stocks are very expensive. The rest of the US market is, it's not cheap, but it's not as expensive. So the first thing I'd do is try to, I'd be okay with putting some more money in the US market outside of, say, the top 10 companies.
Chris Hall (21:07)
true.
David Kelly (21:28)
and these whatever.
But also, I mean, the big thing is international because, you know, we have a chart, we put together the guide to the markets. I don't know if you've seen our guide to the markets, it's, but we have a, we have a chart where we show these ranges of valuations for different markets around the world, the US and Japan and UK and China and EM. And it's like that, you know, that Sesame Street song. Well, one of these, one of these bars is not like the others. I mean, the US is very expensive and nothing else is very expensive.
Chris Hall (21:37)
Yes.
David Kelly (21:58)
There's nothing really expensive about Japanese stocks or UK stocks or Eurozone stocks or Chinese stocks. They're all kind of at normal valuations. This has been a US boom. And the question is, do you really want to have all your eggs in that US basket? you know, right now the US is 65 % of all the stocks in the world are US stocks, which is an extraordinarily high number.
But how many people can honestly say that 35 % of their stock exposure is outside the US? The vast majority of Americans is way below that. Maybe 20%, 10%. So the first thing is, if you've got extra money, put it in non-US stocks. Basically, there are stocks that are going to do the sort of things that stocks do. If the dollar comes down some more, and I'd argue it probably will over the next decade and maybe even over the next few years, then that's going to amplify your return. But you can stay long. The stock market just doesn't have to all
Chris Hall (22:24)
No. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I would.
David Kelly (22:47)
US stocks.
Chris Hall (22:48)
Yeah, I like that. That's really good. And again, the top 10 stocks has been what's really running everything. But those are probably the most overpriced, if you will. And so that makes perfect sense to find things that, like anything else, you go in the grocery store and maybe go look for some things that are on sale.
David Kelly (23:07)
Well, absolutely, absolutely. mean, I had an old friend, a very old friend in this business, a guy called Don Connolly, who used to say that stocks are weirdest thing because everything else in the grocery store, it's on sale, you buy it and the stock market just run away from it. You just want to buy the most expensive stuff. Why do we do that?
Chris Hall (23:25)
Right, or I always thought as a financial advisor, you when things go on sale, you know, we go buy more of it, right? But in the stock market, if something goes on sale, something dips in price, you know, we're trying to figure out how to get it out of our cabinet, take it to the grocery store and sell it back to them, you know, and that's not a good way to do it either.
David Kelly (23:39)
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. think, but in general, look at valuations because when you if you know, in the long run, I think the US economy is going to be fine. think the global economy is going to be fine. But there are there's a lot of tension in the US market right now. And I do think there's a possibility of a significant correction. You just don't want to be overweight, the most expensive stuff.
Chris Hall (24:02)
Right. I like that a lot. That's very good advice. Thank you for that. I also wanted to talk about just because like you very rarely get a chance to like have someone of your caliber, you know, to ask these questions to but what do you think about gold and its massive run up over the last few years? Like, do you think this has got holding power? Or is this just kind of a way of saying like, yeah, inflation was terrible. This is how we're going to get
hedge against it. What do you feel like gold has done in the last couple years and what do think it'll probably continue to do?
David Kelly (24:30)
Well, think so it used to be that gold did, was pretty reliable as an inflation hedge and also as a hedge against geopolitical turmoil.
But if you look at that, know, his story that was its historic role But then we've seen periods where inflation has gone up and gold didn't do anything then when inflation comes down gold takes off and then we've got Severe geopolitical tensions. It's not really helping you out So it's it's an animal's kind of change its stripes over time and what I think has really happened is we've had a lot of liquidity in this market and money has been pouring sloshing around being going into this area and going into that area and I think the people who want to balance out a portfolio they know they've got a lot of risky stuff and
they are worried about things. People are worried about the government debt. They're worried about where everything is going. And so the idea that they could put something in a money in a solid, tangible asset like gold, I think has had some appeal to individual investors. I think that's helped. I think a lot of international central banks, they don't necessarily want to build up the dollar denominated holdings so that they've been building up their gold holdings. And I think that's created some demand and any little bit of extra demand for gold will push the price up because
The supply is completely inelastic. mean, the world's supply of gold, mined refined gold goes up by about 1 % per year, come hell or high water, that's all it can do because it just, it's so expensive to find it and lift it out of the ground. So if you have any bit of increased demand, that's what pushes up its price. I do have some respect for gold because it does have a very, very long history as a central bank asset. It is useful in various industrial...
processes and particularly it's all beautiful as for jewelry so it's got some some some virtues and I do think that it makes an awful lot more sense and cryptocurrencies which I think are just a fraud I don't think we should be involved in them at all having said that I will say that if you go back to 1980 look the price of gold then you look at rate of inflation gold is just on average has matched inflation since 1980 it's had a good run up last few years but since 1980 it's matched inflation
And I can't think of any long-term asset that's still as bad as that. I people talk about something being as good as gold. I actually can't think of any long-term asset that's been as bad as gold for investors. I'm okay, you know, up to 5 % of an allocation, not going to hurt you. It's okay. It does diversify you and it's kind of interesting, but I wouldn't, I would not go crazy on it. And I don't, and I don't think ultimately, I don't think it's the center of a long-term investment portfolio for somebody who's trying to save for retirement.
Chris Hall (26:57)
I think there is no price to earnings ratio on gold, right? We can't go back and go, as an asset, it's doing really well because it's got these x, y, z factors. It's really just like we're expecting someone to buy it for more than I paid for it.
David Kelly (27:00)
Absolutely.
It's just the plug.
Yeah,
it's the it's the greater fool theory. But again, in the the you know, the in the era of Bitcoin, I can think of greater fools than the people who buying gold.
Chris Hall (27:17)
So I'm so glad you mentioned crypto because as a financial advisor, I probably get asked three or four times a week about gold, but I probably get asked every single day about crypto. And and so what are your thoughts? And again, I think people are probably heading to crypto because and the people that I watch on, you know, Twitter or TikTok or things like that, they're very much like it's it's because of the Fed, it's because of the devaluation of the dollar. But
David Kelly (27:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hall (27:44)
But in my mind, I'm like, but it's just a different kind of fiat currency. So why would it be exceptionally different?
David Kelly (27:49)
it
Well, exactly. the number one thing I get from people, sophisticated people or not sophisticated people, is they don't quite understand crypto. And the reason is because of the cryptography, because it's... Let me give you an analogy. Back in the 19th century, there were thousands and thousands of banks all over America. And if you were somewhat unscrupulous, what you wanted to do is set up a bank in a very remote area. So you might have the third regional bank of Sleepy Gulch, Wyoming.
Chris Hall (27:58)
Mm-hmm.
David Kelly (28:18)
and you'd set up your bank and you'd have a little vault there. But the thing that you need, you didn't need gold in the vault because why bother with that, but you did need to have a good calligrapher, somebody who could draw beautiful banknotes. So we've got lots of beautiful banknotes from the 19th century. The third regional bank of Sleepy Gulch, Wyoming, will pay the bearer $10 in gold. And you'd send these out to the world and your great hope was that they would never come back to you. Because if they didn't come back to you, you had nothing in the vault. Boy are the notes pretty.
And that is what crypto is. It is an empty box. The cryptography is fascinating. You know, the idea that servers are querying away in the desert trying to figure out prime numbers to break the code to print another, you know, to mine another Bitcoin. But then what's backing it? ⁓ Nothing. It's just a pretty box which is empty.
And you know, I think one of the things that's going on with Bitcoin right now is the advent of stable coins because they introduced stable coins and they passed the Genius Act and I think it's very badly named but
Chris Hall (29:17)
Usually
is.
David Kelly (29:18)
But the thing about a stablecoin is least the way they have now regulated it, it has to be backed by treasuries. So something is 100 % backed by treasuries. Now it doesn't pay you any interest. So I don't know why you're doing this. I mean, just by the treasuries make the interest. Why buy a stablecoin and pay no interest? It's much harder to use in transactions. But OK, you won't lose any money either. At least you start thinking about inflation. But once you have a stablecoin, you say, OK, well, at least this thing's backed by treasuries. But what's Bitcoin backed by?
I mean, you're saying Bitcoin's going to be a currency, but it can't be a currency because a currency has to be stable. I mean, you're not going to sell me a card. I'm going to buy, you know, pick it up from you in a few days and hand you over a certain price in Bitcoin because you don't know what that price is. I mean, it could be 10 % higher, could be 10 % lower. That currency can't operate that way. The only thing Bitcoin's supposed to be is a currency, but it cannot fulfill that function. So in fact, what it is is a focus of speculation. But unlike gold, there's nothing unique about it.
I could come up with Zitcoin or Mitcoin or Davecoin is actually my favorite when I was thinking of issuing. Yeah, exactly. You Davecoin, I'll just keep the first 20 % for myself and you you're welcome to the rest. But there is nothing there. And so it is a completely fraudulent asset. And it's, I just hate the fact that so many politicians have been bought off.
Chris Hall (30:15)
I like Dave coin. I'm a buyer.
David Kelly (30:30)
on both sides to pretend that this is important, that financial institutions say, well, you if you want to want to house your Bitcoin here or we don't want to be passe about this, crypto might be really interesting. And it's just all nonsense. It's just a fraudulent asset. There's nothing there. It is a modern Ponzi scheme.
But worse, because at least with Ponzi, he presumably had some money left in his house when people are collecting. There's nothing there. So I just wish people wouldn't. I know there lot of people who are feeling pretty miserable after watching Bitcoins down about 31 % since where it was in October. I'm there a lot of people who are sad about that and licking their wounds. But honestly, the correct price is 10 cents. It's not worth it.
Chris Hall (31:09)
Yeah, and then,
and then, you know, the way if you listen to the crypto people, they're going to talk that it's just like a stock, right? So this, you know, like when a stock goes down, you buy more of it if you believe in it. And I feel like that's kind of like what's going to happen here is that, you know, they're going to use it as a way to like get more people into it. ⁓
David Kelly (31:25)
Yeah, but yeah,
but you and I know the difference between that because Procter and Gamble makes actual money selling toothpaste. You know, there's actual earnings, you know, a bond pays you a coupon, you know, there's actual money there.
Bitcoin is like gold and it's only worth what the next person will pay you for it, but it doesn't have anything like gold's history. It doesn't have any industrial uses or jewelry. It doesn't even exist in a physical sense. And there's nothing backing it. there is no floor. For a stock, there's a floor which is created by the earnings the company itself will earn. Eventually, Warren Buffett will come and buy it because it's a deal. Warren Buffett ain't coming in to buy Bitcoin.
Chris Hall (32:03)
Right, right. I feel like his attitude towards it is extremely similar to yours as well. And I have used, so people ask me all the time about it. And so when I tell them, I don't know everything about it, I do know that when my physical trainer, my massage therapist, and my ex-wife all ask me about it in the same exact day, that it very much has a
David Kelly (32:08)
Yeah.
Chris Hall (32:30)
a tulip mania feeling to it. And so I tell people, know, like if you're, you know, the whole goal of it is exactly what you said, which is we want the person behind us to pay more for it than us based on based on really nothing. And that is the definition of a Ponzi scheme, right? But in a Ponzi scheme, the people who get hurt are the last people in. ⁓
David Kelly (32:48)
Unfortunately,
that's right. I I talked to lots of taxi drivers and so forth. And we get on to talking about finance and talk about Bitcoin. And then I realize, wait, you own it, don't you? Yeah, I do own it. It is tax money.
Chris Hall (32:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough.
almost does feel like almost like a tax. Lottery tickets are a tax on the poor. They've done the math on it, and they find that the people who buy them are overwhelmingly poor. And so they're taking that money, and they're taking some of it, and they're using it for themselves. But they're also taking it and giving it to schools and stuff like that. But it really, truly ends up being a tax on the poor.
David Kelly (33:09)
Yeah.
Exactly.
That's exactly right. actually,
ago I worked for the state of Michigan and actually forecast lottery revenues for them and looking at all the data that is exactly it is. The biggest area of lottery sales for the state of Michigan on a per capita basis was Flint, Michigan, which was one of the poorest cities in the state. That's what was doing it.
Chris Hall (33:40)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I feel like I feel like crypto has a lot of that same vein in it. You know, not that not that it's all poor people. There's plenty of very millionaires, you know, who have gotten to Bitcoin when it was 30 cents a coin and whatever. And I don't want to disparage that as well. But my my stance with it typically is that I would treat it like any sort of really, really speculative stock. You know what mean? Like, don't put all your eggs in that basket. Don't put any more into it than you're willing to literally watch go to zero.
David Kelly (33:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. It's your Vegas money, if you like Vegas.
Chris Hall (34:09)
Yeah. ⁓ I like
that. That's Vegas money. I like that a lot. That's really good. Yeah. So globally, based on what I'm hearing you say, we should be looking at diversification of some things outside the top 10 stocks that are really rolling. International sounds, like you said, 35 % of the world is international stocks. But most people's portfolios, probably 10 % or less international. So maybe beefing up international a little bit.
David Kelly (34:24)
Yeah.
Chris Hall (34:34)
How do we feel about bonds? interest rates, I've been telling people that interest rates were going to come down for three years now, and they just don't want to bring them down. And I see why, but I mean, at the same respect, bonds typically are reflective of interest rates. And so where do you feel bonds are going to go?
David Kelly (34:45)
Yeah.
Well, we've had the Federal Reserve obviously was raising short term rates and now they've been cutting short term rates and we'll see it's a close call. they cut them again in December. But I do think they'll cut them two to three times over the next year. And then sort of getting back to the economy, which I really didn't go through here. But I think I think what's going to happen with the economy is it's pretty slow in the fourth quarter this year for lots of reasons. It's going to speed up early next year because a lot of income tax refunds. But then once those income tax refunds are spent,
I think it's going to slow down again in the second half of next year. And by the end of next year, I think we're down to 2 % inflation again. You know, we've got all this tariff inflation, but it's going to work through the system. It's going to leave prices higher. But the inflation, which is the rate of change of prices, is going to come back down to 2%. And it could go below that in 2027. And then I think the Fed could resume cutting short-term rates. But when it comes to long-term rates, you've got a more, I think, more interesting position. Right now, we're at a little bit over 4 % in a 10-year Treasury.
And if you go back in the 50 years before the financial crisis, the 10-year treasury yield averaged 2.7 percentage points above core CPI inflation. So if you had core CPI inflation going forward of, 2%, that would argue for a 4.7 % 10-year treasury yield. Now, you're already well below that. And so if the economy doesn't go into recession, then given the amount of money the federal government is borrowing and given the fact that they keep on putting stimulus into the economy, which
could cause inflation down the road, I don't think you'd get much of rally out of the bond market. I don't have any problem. You get four and a quarter on a 10-year treasury, or get, say, four and a half percent on the Bloomberg.
AG index of corporate bonds and corporate and treasury bonds. That's okay. And the one thing you know about the bond market is there's actually a very strong correlation between the yields you get today and the return you're going to get over the next five years. It's pretty much the same number. So you buy four and a half percent bonds and you'll get paid four and a half percent. It's pretty low drama. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think I wouldn't knock that at all.
I think it needs an allocation in there. And if something does go wrong with the equity market, then bonds will rally and that'll help you out. They will zig a bit if the stocks zag. And so I think it's fine having bonds in a portfolio. The only other thing I'd say about it is I wouldn't make a big bet on credit, things like high yield bonds, because those credit spreads are pretty tight. And I wouldn't make a big bet on duration, which means long-term rates are definitely going to come down a lot, because honestly, they're not that high.
So I'd keep it pretty close to the benchmark, just have a good slug of bonds in a portfolio, but pretty neutral allocation.
Chris Hall (37:19)
OK, I like that. So now, one of the things that you've been doing this for a really long time, what are the most dangerous piece of conventional financial wisdom that everyone believes, in your opinion?
David Kelly (37:31)
Well, the one piece of economic...
The one economic idea that get completely wrong is that when the Federal Reserve cuts interest rates, it actually helps the economy grow. One of the ironies of the administration is we put in a lot of pressure on the Federal Reserve to cut rates. And some people think they shouldn't, some people think they shouldn't. I don't think they should, but maybe I'll get back into that in a minute. But what I do feel, strongly feel is that if they do cut rates, it won't stimulate the economy. This is not your grandfather's economy. Usually you cut rates in the 1950s, you see a big spike up in investments,
home buying and all that stuff. But today when you cut rates people have actually got more short-term interest income than they have short-term interest expense. If you cut rates you're actually going to hurt American consumers in terms of you know a lot of people are going to have lower income on the money market funds and their CDs and so forth and you know almost everybody's in a fixed rate mortgage so it doesn't help there. The credit card companies aren't going to really lower your rate anyway just because they pay 23 % to pay 24 why should they lower the rate and so they
really get much of a break. Meanwhile when the Federal Reserve cuts rates you know if they cut rates well they're probably going to cut more. So you want to borrow money now you want to wait. I think I'll wait.
And so it causes wait and see mentality when they cut rates. It also tells you, if they do cut rates in December, it will tell you that the Fed's really scared that the employment situation is getting really bad. So is that going to help the economy grow? Is it going to hurt? It's going to hurt. And that's what I think people don't get. Over and over this century, we've seen when the Federal Reserve cut rates to stimulate the economy, it didn't get stronger. And when they raised rates to slow the economy down and could have put it in recession, they didn't put it in recession.
I mean, yes, the Fed raised rates a lot in 2022, but it put the economy in recession. It's not going to. And so the one thing, the thing that I think people get wrong is the assumption that the Federal Reserve controls the economy. And that actually gets me back to the point about why I don't think they should cut rates. What they do do, though, is they cause asset bubbles. When you bring mortgage rates down to 3 % on a mortgage, then it's going to cause home prices to soar.
Chris Hall (39:07)
Right.
David Kelly (39:27)
And a lot of people are yelling at the Federal Reserve about affordability and housing market. The reason we've got a problem today is not because mortgage rates are too high, it's because they kept them too low for 15 years. And when the price of, you know, when a mortgage was at 3%, that caused prices to go up and up and up. And then they snapped the trap shut by raising rates back to a normal level, and now there's a whole generation of potential home buyers who just can't afford the mortgage.
Chris Hall (39:50)
Right, right.
David Kelly (39:51)
So that's
why you don't want to... The economy's got problems, but the economy's problems are all on the supply side. And cutting interest rates is not going to help with those problems.
Chris Hall (40:00)
Right, right. Now, and I do feel like, you know, like with housing, it really has, you know, exploded as far as pricing, you know. And I think that, you know, people are now trying to like look at a house and they've got a six and a half percent interest rate, but the house has gone up, you know, almost 50 % in the last six years. And it's like these, you know, the younger people specifically, they can't buy a house. They can't bust four to $6,000 mortgage.
So I don't know that interest rates cutting, so you're saying that interest rates cutting won't help that too much.
David Kelly (40:30)
It won't help that too much, and it could cause a future problem. I do think that we will slowly work our way out of this problem, but that's what happens when home prices get too high. mean, if you look at, for example, the Japanese economy, they had a big housing bubble, which was as bad as anything we saw, but it took years for home prices to come down to an affordable level because nobody wants to sell us a loss.
Chris Hall (40:53)
you
David Kelly (40:53)
And in
fact, a lot of people don't want to sell at all because they've got a mortgage right now, 3 % mortgage that they sell by something else. They're to take out a 6 % mortgage in that. So why do you want to sell? And so the supply all dries up because of the way that our mortgage market works. But no, I think that there are things that we should do. If we wanted to free up the housing market, we could try to find some way of making mortgages assumable.
and I'll come back to that, but you have to compensate, fully compensate the banks and the mortgage bond holders for that. But I think that would be a great scheme if you can say, look, I've got this house I bought a few years ago, now I need to move, but I've got this 25 years left and the 30 year mortgage is 3%. I'll sell you my house, but what's more, I'll sell you my mortgage.
Chris Hall (41:38)
Right.
David Kelly (41:39)
And if we could do that, that would free up the housing market. And obviously, if you do that, then the bank loses money on that transaction. And so the banks have to be compensated and the bondholders have to be compensated. But if I ruled the world, I would work on that problem. would try and say, look, I don't want people stuck in houses they shouldn't be stuck in because of mortgages. Because there are a lot of older people, two people, one people rattling around in these four or five bedroom houses all over America.
that we're not actually short of bedrooms in this country. It's just the people who own the houses can't get out of them. The people who want them can't get into them.
Chris Hall (42:15)
Right, right. I think that a lot of people's plan is just they're going to die and give them to their kids. And then.
David Kelly (42:19)
Yeah, well unfortunately
that's the way the mortgage laws and the tax laws work. It doesn't make sense.
Chris Hall (42:23)
Yeah, yeah.
I saw something the other day on the Assumable Loan thing. I thought, that's brilliant. It really is. It's basically like a reverse annuity. You've guaranteed you know exactly how much outlay you're going to be. And so you can just take that and take some inflation off of it. And yeah, that's going be very interesting.
David Kelly (42:39)
⁓
I think it's an interesting mathematical problem figuring out exactly who gets compensated, but would free up the market, and I think that would deal with the housing problem.
Chris Hall (42:48)
What do you think, like if you were 30 again, like how would you advise people who are listening to, you know, have a strat, like an overall strategy for investing? What's the best vehicles to use to build wealth when you're 30?
David Kelly (43:04)
Well, I think the first thing when you're 30 is invest in your own career. When I think back of the various things that happened to me over the years, I think I've been lucky. But the mistakes I've made myself are hanging around too long and a job that was never going to work.
Chris Hall (43:09)
Mmm.
David Kelly (43:25)
or hanging around working for a firm. If it's not working out, you know, I've always, and I remember a few years ago I had the real privilege of speaking, being a commencement speaker from Michigan State. And so I made this speech and I talked about, you know, think about all the jobs out there. It's like a big Venn diagram. draw three circles. What you're great at, what you love, and what's going to get you paid.
And there's an intersection of those three circles. And that's where you got to focus. And if you're not in that intersection, then fix things.
Don't just sit there and wait for something to happen to you. It's actually like in finance, don't wait to diversify. The market will diversify you. But make a decision. Be nice about it. Do the best you can in the job you're in. But make a move to something that's more suited to your talents or your real passions or something that's going to actually pay you to do the job. Make those moves and invest in your own career and your own brain because that's your biggest asset. Invest in that.
comes
to how to put the money to work put it in long-term assets diversify it but don't get too cute I mean the you know I think I think there's a great need for active management because there's so much mispricing within the market
But people are always asking for a hot stock tip. A, I'm not going to give you a hot stock tip. B, I don't have one. Let's see if I did. You know what? That's the easiest way to get burnt. so it's about doing it right and investing in long-term assets. Don't get too scared. Realize you're a long-term. It's like marathon running. You don't start off too fast. You don't be too aggressive because you've got to make it a long way. And you've got to plan for long way.
Chris Hall (44:43)
Right, right.
Right.
investing in yourself is probably the number one thing people should do because I feel like we are really, we go through primary school, primary education, really to become employees. And then when you get to college, you can kind of choose a path, but it still feels like you're gonna be an employee.
David Kelly (45:11)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Hall (45:17)
saying but I feel like a lot of people will get into a job Like you had said they don't really like it. They don't really like it, but they're getting decent money
David Kelly (45:22)
Mm-hmm.
that happens to almost everybody. That some terrible thing happens to their company and they're laid off and they feel like this is the worst day of their lives. And it's amazing the number of people who will tell you that you don't realize this is your biggest opportunity. What's amazing is you don't believe that, but it's actually true. I've seen it over and over and over again. right.
job or it'll find a way of separating itself from you and
Chris Hall (45:44)
No, I
I had a friend of mine call me the day that he found out I got laid off. He had been, ⁓ I think he had left the industry, but he called me and I answered the phone. I was like, Hey, what's going on? He's like, welcome to the other side. And I was like, ⁓ well, that was a weird thing to say. It was very positive and a very negative emotion moment. So, but I do, I think that you're right. I think that if you're in a bad situation, that ultimately it will correct it for you if you don't correct it yourself. So.
David Kelly (45:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep, exactly.
Chris Hall (46:10)
I like that. Now, obviously health is very important to you. This is kind of like just an out there question, but it's kind of fun. So if you could choose, if you had to choose, would you choose perfect health at 80 or $10 million at 50? You're an economist. I want to hear the trade off.
David Kelly (46:26)
I'd pick, I'd grab the perfect health at 80. I don't, but it's, know, dollars and dollars. mean, there are an awful lot of things. I live in a house full of stuff.
Chris Hall (46:29)
I like that.
David Kelly (46:36)
How much that stuff do I really need? I don't actually need that much. need to, I mean, it's nice to be able to pay the bills and deal with what you need to deal with. And if you can't, that's miserable. But you don't need to be incredibly wealthy. having great health to AD, that would be something lovely.
I like life and you can't enjoy life as much as you should if you're not healthy. That's why it's important to look after your body. You've only got one. You just look after it. I say go running, pay attention to what you eat. I think it's, I try to get enough sleep. I do plenty of exercise, eat properly and drink plenty of water. Do those four things, you'll probably be healthy.
Chris Hall (47:16)
Yeah, no, I like that. That's good. I do, think that's, you know, it really is more of a, like a mindset, right? So, so like you said that and you were so, you know, passionate about your answer to it. And I would tell you that, you know, you would probably ask a hundred people and get a bunch of different answers. Like you're gonna, you're not gonna get like, definitely 80 and healthy. You're gonna have some people like, nope, 50 and 10 million. That's definitely what I want.
because they just want to go spend it, have a good time, and they don't care about the future. I think it's a really good exercise in delayed gratification, but also understanding that we are finite beings. We're not going to be here forever. So that's excellent. Well, so the one other thing I wanted to kind of say is, you basically explain complex topics very simply. Can you give us a 30-second take on where you see this market headed?
David Kelly (47:51)
Yeah, that's true.
I think it's...
So I think that right now the overall equity market, we're going to have a correction at some stage. I think over the next few years, it'll probably go up a little bit, but I think that people should not look back the last two years of double digit returns, returns in the 20 % range. They should not regard that as normal. I think there's plenty of opportunities in global markets. They're just not in US large cap equities. I feel good about the economy.
long run I think the economy look after itself but I think the market is is a little expensive relative the economy right now and the US large-cap equity market is really it's a little bit expensive and so I'd want to diversify this is a time where your resolution for 2026 should be rebalance make sure you're diversified make sure you're not overexposed in what is a over exuberant market
Chris Hall (48:58)
Okay, yeah, that's really great advice. I appreciate that. And I hope the listeners appreciate it and listen to it. Because that's, you know, that's big part of it too, right? Is that, you know, if we all kind of go to our financial advisors or, you know, set up rebalancing or kind of say, listen, we're to go a little more international right now, because you know, of what's happening, then it's a slow, you know, change, and it doesn't affect the market as badly. you know, what we've noticed is that sometimes you'll see things where
good companies like lose tons of value because of people having to liquidate to do something. And that's where I think you make bad choices because you're forced to liquidate. Like you said, the market will do it for you.
David Kelly (49:30)
Yep.
Yeah, and sort of getting back to where we started. it requires a certain amount of discipline. that's kind of, but exercise is also discipline. You put in the miles on a cold morning, you don't feel great about going out first thing in the morning, but after a while you feel better about it. But you have to be thoughtful about it and disciplined about it. And to me, that's kind of like asset allocation. mean, the right asset allocation, I often say, it's a little bit like home insurance. You hope you're never going to need it. You don't know when you're going to need it, but you should never
Chris Hall (49:45)
Mm-hmm.
David Kelly (50:05)
comfortably not having it. And if you're overexposed in overly speculative areas, you could get beaten up pretty badly. so think it's, know, the growth of the global economy, the growth of the stock market in the long run, the global stock market, it should, you know, amplify your wealth if you're in the right job and you're doing the other things you need to do. So you don't need to get greedy here. I think this is a time where people just need to be very disciplined going into 2026.
Chris Hall (50:29)
I like that. That's really good. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to talk about before we take off?
David Kelly (50:35)
No, I just want to wish everybody a very prosperous New Year. We hope that it works out that way and a very peaceful and happy holiday season.
Chris Hall (50:44)
Thank you. Happy holidays to you as well. I do want to ask you, do you have a marathon coming up?
David Kelly (50:48)
Yeah, I'm going to run the 2026 Boston Marathon. be the eight consecutive year. I run it every year for the Dana Farber Cancer Institute. it's just, you know, I only run one marathon a year, but that's, I love running Boston.
Chris Hall (51:04)
Okay, and you're running
on behalf of a charity, is that what you said?
David Kelly (51:07)
Yeah, I run for Dana Farber, who's a cancer institution. They do wonderful research. One of the world's leading researchers on cures for lots of different kinds of cancers, well as treating many, thousands of people. And so they do a lot of great work. And the team that I run on, I everybody raises money and it's they've all got a story. And some of them are little heartbreaking, but it's wonderful when I go out and team runs just seeing how they can find purpose in some of the darkest
days of their lives because of some relative or some, know, who cancer has struck and they can, they put in their miles, they work hard at it, they raise money and then we all line up in the third Monday in April in Hupkington and we run the Boston Marathon and it's kind of highlight of my year.
Chris Hall (51:51)
Nice, nice, that's really cool. Now the Boston Marathon, you have to be invited to be in it, correct?
David Kelly (51:56)
Well, you have to have a Boston qualifying time if you're not in a charity. Now, I do actually have a qualifying time because of my great antiquity at this stage, because it does get easier as you get older. you don't have to have a qualifying time if you run for charity. A lot of people who aren't natural runners, but this has just been important to them to do this, to try to raise money and to do this personal thing, to try to put in the effort to help with the cancer cause.
Chris Hall (52:05)
That's a great way to say that.
David Kelly (52:23)
great. There are a lot of charity runners in the Boston Marathon and I think it really adds a lot to the event.
Chris Hall (52:30)
Okay. Well, thank you again for so much of your time. I found it to be fascinating and I knew I would enjoy it and I really did enjoy it. And I would love if you would come back on the show, you know, like three or four months and let's do this again and talk about what's going on in the market again, if that's something you'd be up for.
David Kelly (52:47)
Well,
I'd very much love to do it again. Let me get my marathon under my belt first, All right, fair enough. All right.
Chris Hall (52:51)
Okay, know the good point. Good point. We'll wait till the marathons over. All right. Well, we're all rooting for you. And we're all rooting
for you to raise tons of money for your charity as well. So thank you so much for your time, Dr. David Kelly. It's been just a great time with you. All right. And thank you all for listening. ⁓ You know, you guys know the drill, like, comment, shares. That's what helps the algorithm know we're out there, helps spread the word and get more exposure for these really good talks that we're having. So
David Kelly (52:59)
Alright, thank you Chris.
No. Thank you.
Chris Hall (53:18)
Thank you all for listening and have a great day.