Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
If you're working internationally and looking to develop your cross-cultural competence then this is the episode for you. Join me and my guest Dr. Kumar, an expert in International Business Strategy and Cross-Cultural Management.
Welcome to SkyeTeam's People First! In this series, we explore the people side of successful business and careers. We all have a story to share, a leadership journey that we are experiencing.
We'll be interviewing authors, business leaders, thought leaders, and people like you to uncover the latest ideas, resources, and tools to help you become more effective at work - and in life. As it turns out, the secret is cultivating winning relationships. Business is personal, and relationships matter!
[Music]
welcome to sky team's people first with
morag barrett
welcome to this week's episode of people
first where leaders come to accelerate
their leadership journey and my guest
this week is the fascinating dr rajesh kumar who is an expert in international
business strategy and cross-cultural
management
originally from india dr kumar has lived
and worked in the united states the uk
denmark
france
finland
netherlands
and new zealand
and through personal experience and
academic study he has developed a deep
appreciation and awareness of the
importance of the cross-cultural
dimension
and how it impacts strategy formulation
and implementation
dr kumar has a phd degree in
international business from new york
university an mba from rutgers
university and and a master's degree in
economics from the university of delhi
he's the author of international
negotiations in china and india
published by macmillan in 2011
and he's also co-authored doing business
in india which was published by
macmillan in 2005.
so dr kumar welcome to people first
thank you marek thank you for inviting
me
well i'm really looking forward to this
conversation as a woman who's had an
opportunity to work with leaders from
more than 20 countries and on four
continents as a transplant myself the
cross-cultural and the global impact for
all of us cannot be underestimated
however before we get into the juicy
stuff sure i want to start with your
origin story so when you go back to
being a wee lad you're growing up you're
in primary school middle school yes the
teacher says rajesh what do you want to
be when you grow up what was yours
right so again here you get into culture
because at the time when i was growing
up in india
the dominant uh
dominant focus was on becoming a
bureaucrat because india in the 70s was
you know a fairly restricted economy it
was not so open was not doing so well
and you know given the hierarchical
structure of the indian society the best
thing
for everyone at that time of the
dominant ambition was to become a
bureaucrat and to enter the indian
administrative service
which is actually a precursor to the
indian civil service which was
established by the british when they
ruled india
so you know that was what everyone had
set its ambitions on their ambitions on
and my parents wanted me to join that
service as well but
i it was not to my inclination not to my
taste
and
[Music]
and perhaps didn't suit my temperaments
now i decided against that and
decided to venture overseas and my first
journey out of india was actually in
england
where i went to london
and i was at that time
uh article with an accounting firm and
uh trying to become a chartered
accountant
but again i kind of got disillusioned
with that and then moved to the u.s
so
interesting though because i mean i
started in numbers as well 15 years in
finance and realized that part of the
equation but it's the human element that
makes the change
not a bureaucrat
not an accountant right what was the
inspiration then for cultural awareness
and the the working of peoples from
around the world right so i think one
was my own practical experience because
when i moved from india to the u.s
it i faced a culture shock
because clearly the british way of doing
things was very different from the way
people do things in india
and i struggled in terms of
communication
in terms of getting myself understood
in terms of understanding
what the others were were saying of what
the intentions were
and so i realized at that point in time
that this is an important issue and uh
and i needed to change myself and so
and then when i moved to the u.s there
was again
a little bit of a culture shock less so
but still there and
and then in the process i also
came to recognize the positivity of
these differences because you meet
wonderful people you come to appreciate
different ways of thinking you are
really introduced to things
that you may not have been aware of
and so i think in retrospect
and in fact looking back it was a very
positive experience but when you're
going through it and especially
initially it's a little bit of a
challenge it is i mean i remember when
we moved to the states
obviously from england to colorado here
and allegedly we speak the same language
yes i can confirm from my own faux pas
that we uh american english and english
english don't always translate correct
even going to the grocery store yeah
calling a grocery store versus a
supermarket is one example of language
difference but the brands look different
and the
the climate is different here in
colorado to where i grew up so the foods
i would cook didn't feel like it suited
where we were living and what we wanted
to eat but i couldn't even tell which
brands were the ones that i might want
to purchase and so thinking about it at
a human level it's not just the language
breaks but it's the the customs the
etiquette absolutely and just putting
heads on the table feels weird and
different absolutely and if i'm not
mistaken i think this british company
tesco tried to enter the u.s market
and i don't think they succeeded
you didn't and there are
plenty of stories like that so let's
start there then where does a lack of
appreciation for national culture and
the similarities or differences how does
that impact
a company's performance
oh it does so in so many different ways
i think first of all
if you don't really understand the local
mindset the local needs the local
you know the local desires
you might
number one end up producing a product
that
that that nobody wants to buy and i
think to some extent that's that's one
of the issues if not all of the issues
that happened with tesco and a number of
other companies
and same thing has also happened with
general motors in india they
exited after 21 years
they tried a number of different models
but the fact of the matter is
that they could not produce a low priced
car because india is a price sensitive
market
and so they ceded the market to their
korean competitors so the first thing is
you've really got to really understand
the local mindset the local
orientation
and if you don't then i think you know
there's going to be a problem in terms
of what you offer and what the market is
willing to accept and the same thing
also happened with ebay when they were
entering china so
so they had a chinese competitor which
allowed the buyers and the sellers to
communicate directly
whereas that food that was not permitted
on ebay now that became a disadvantage
for them because in china and in other
asian countries relationships are very
important and personal interaction is so
critical
so you've really got to understand the
interface and the and the
and the and the need for local
responsiveness
if you are going to succeed
now i recognize that as soon as managers
hear the word local responsiveness
it means greater costs yes because
you've got to adapt
but on the other hand if your interest
is in longer term market penetration and
potential
then i think you'd really do need to
adapt now i'm not saying all adaptation
is necessary but certainly you know you
need to get to know the lay of the land
and and realize the boundaries
within which you can make the adaptation
so it's interesting as i listen and i'm
thinking about the clients and leaders
i'm working with who are working
internationally or the leaders who are
leading internationally whether they're
they've got uh offshore resources that
they're tapping into or cultural
dynamics on their team
so i'm curious first of all on the
basics
which is easier for me to
learn is it the business rules of
engagement abroad because there's a
textbook and a manual
yes or is it the
human bit of how business gets on the
people a bit
which trips up leaders more often is it
i think it's the human aspect of it
and i think the other thing is the two
things are kind of interrelated so even
if you have a certain manual or certain
rules or regulations
the fact is that how they're implemented
how they are used
varies across different cultural
contexts
and so you've really got to get to as i
said earlier the lay of the land
which is what works what does not work
what is the real you know what is the
actual way of doing business
as opposed to the stated way of doing
business yes
so everyone will talk about transparency
and honesty and all of this yes yeah and
yet how this manifests itself
is different in different contexts
so tell us a little bit more about that
i know for example negotiation yes how
does that differ across cultures and
across
countries
absolutely so you know in a lot of asian
countries or cultures
negotiation is about building
relationships
you've got to spend time together you've
got to socialize you've got to uh
you know you've got to you've got to you
know you've got to build trust now a lot
of western managers who go to asia you
know at times to get frustrated because
it takes long time it takes a long time
to get down to do business
and and so they often may not have the
patience or the uh or the ability to
actually cope with those particular
differences
but you know the thing is that
for a lot of people in asia i think
building trust is vital
and you build trust through
interpersonal connections
and how do you build interpersonal
connections you know i think you as in
other situations as well
you know you meet people socially you
have a drink you go out for lunch you
you you converse you get to uh
you get to know each other
now for the western manager you know
this is considered as something
different from doing business
but i think the point is that in a
number of different cultures the two
things are are completely interrelated
and similar but different i mean i'm
thinking about my own experience
obviously working in london yes you
could go to the pub you'd go out for a
meal your food and drink yourself the
relationship when i was working in asia
however the idea of taking clients and
customers to a karaoke bar in order to
close the deal was
coming from a british perspective it was
like heck you're not going to get me
singing anywhere
and probably for good reason so
so as leaders are thinking about the
environments that they're working in
what are the sort of first steps that
they can
take in order to become more culturally
aware but also culturally adept right so
the first thing is they
they need to get out of their comfort
zone
they need to actually recognize
that there is an alternative reality
because unless you don't recognize that
then i think there's going to be a
problem
and so it might very well be the case
that a lot of countries look to america
or look to the west
in terms of uh you know in terms of
guidance in terms of source of
inspiration
and certainly you know u.s has obviously
been the leader in a lot of high-tech
industries
but the fact of the matter is that even
as they look towards the us
you know in a lot of asian cultures
business is very personal
and so i think you've got to recognize
that and realize it's its importance
and often enough people who have not
gone out of their own particular country
they don't recognize that there's such
thing as culture
so i think there needs to be that
initial awareness yes
and in terms of adeptness i think it is
a matter of time it requires training
it requires having a corporate uh
corporate management team that is very
diverse
because then they can actually pick up
clues and be sensitive to what is
required to succeed in different markets
you need to
train people socialize people
it's a process it's not something that
is going to happen overnight
but if you're going to be active
globally
then you've got to create a unit in your
own organization
that is going to create
or develop people who develop these
particular kinds of skills
so yes a unit if your organization is
big enough or at least the confidence in
your own to aid your reading before you
go um to perhaps ask somebody who's on
the ground locally to continue to give
us feedback as we're learning to flex
and adjust around the customs norms and
expectations right absolutely and then i
think what you can also do is
not everyone is going to succeed
globally
so you also need to have the right kind
of selection in terms of what kind of
individuals
will succeed in those environments so
tell us more about that then how do we
identify whether i
am suited to working internationally or
if i'm promoting or hiring leaders into
international roles right so there's a
lot of another thing yeah so there are a
lot of cross-cultural consulting firms
to do this there are a lot of
psychometric tools that are available
and
you know so basically
you know you're looking for certain
traits such as uh
you know emotional intelligence or
cultural intelligence or patience or the
ability to build relationships
uh you know and you've got to have
somebody who has openness who's open
to really
understanding different cultures
oriented to differences
because very often what happens is we
consider differences to be wrong
and and i think we need to move beyond
that mindset and we consider that to be
wrong because you know
we operate on the basis of her mind and
the mind likes to control the mind wants
predictability
and the way you get predictability is by
creating these silos
you know it's either x or y right
but the fact is that when you go into
novel environments you need to be on you
need to go beyond that mentality
beyond that dichotomy by on beyond that
dichotomy of it yeah it feels wrong it's
like right not right
yeah because you know we we are 95 of
the time you know our mind is acting
unconsciously we're making judgments do
we like someone do we dislike someone do
we
do we trust someone do we not trust
someone else yes
and i'm saying when you're going in a
cross-cultural context
you need to go beyond that because
your initial judgments can be completely
wrong can be complete can be completely
inappropriate because you don't have a
good understanding of the lay of the
land
how important is language in being a
good international
leader
i think it is helpful and you know i'm
not saying that it is
you know so if you are going to be
resident in a country for a long period
of time
you know as a country manager or
otherwise then it's helpful to know the
language
it's not it is so it is helpful i would
say
i won't say it's critical i think what's
really more important is your
personality and your attitude
because ultimately people will react to
you based on your attitude your personal
orientation
they might forget the fact that you
don't know the language
but
you know
so i think that's really more important
i'm not downplaying the importance of
language i think if you're going to be
resident in a place for a long time
it is certainly helpful to know that
but i think a lot of companies certainly
us companies want the send managers
overseas to send them for just three
years
which is i think a short period of time
whereas if you take a look at japanese
or other companies they send them for
six or seven years
so what advice do you have for leaders
who may be about to embark on their
first international assignment for that
first um transition period where you've
got off the plane off the boat however
you've made your way out of the
uh those first few weeks and months
what what tips and advice do you have
for leaders here i think even even
before you set down foot on the country
you need to prepare even well before in
advance so the one thing which i think
is very important
preparation preparation preparation
i cannot stress the importance of that
you know and this means
you know
trying to familiarize yourself with as
much as you can about the local culture
trying to identify local resources on
the ground who can actually help you
assist you
try to have some kind of a dialogue
anyhow before entering that particular
culture
and then you've also got to just display
the ability to learn to adapt because
that will be essential
and and so it is a process that that
takes time
and sometimes that does not happen uh
you know i also took me a while for me
to adapt when i moved to england and
then to the us and i can share with you
another story of a german company that
was uh
that had entered into a distributorship
agreement with the company in india
and they signed the contract and they
thought everything was hunky-dory and
then they realized that the their
products were not selling and
and so they wondered what was going on
and
then the ceo of the indian company
visited germany
and
now
he was of the he was expecting that he
would be treated well
but the germans actually just gave him a
45 minute lunch in a cafeteria
he felt insulted
because he felt that
that
you know that he needed greater respect
or whatever
and the fundamental problem was
that the germans didn't realize that the
products that they were trying to get
this company to sell
that company was not interested in
selling them they wanted other products
from this german company
with the german company did not give to
them now here you have a very
fundamental communication problem
sense-making problem
and the party signed a contract but they
really had no great understanding
so i'm curious i mean as we look at the
pandemic the impact that's had
on global business and yes i change
house
it's had an impact on our ability to go
and have a drink
locally alone internationally build
relationships right so what are some of
the key learnings that have come out of
the last two years
that you're sharing in your research and
teachings right so i think it is
obviously i think it has made doing
business difficult
and i've spoken to a number of people
and uh
they say it has been hard to build
relationships yes
because you do not have the
face-to-face interaction
now in cases where relationships have
already been built it's a little easier
but it is difficult to really initiate
something new especially in the context
of doing business in asia latin america
or whatever it is but i think it's
probably changing now because people are
moving around now
and so the future what's caught your
attention in terms of ha
that needs some further investigation
what do you think is next for
the research in
international business and
cross-cultural competence
right so i think a couple of things on
the
on the international business side i
think
you know we're living going through a
period of great transitions
transitions within countries and across
countries
and i think the jury is still active as
to how this is going to play itself out
uh because we see a lot of uh
so we see in europe the brexit and uh
boris johnson wanted to
wants to tear up that deal with the eu
and
that's you know that's consequential and
so there's uncertainty there in terms of
what happens yes
we have ongoing tensions of course
between us and russia and also with
china and yet the thing is the west is
so dependent on china
so how do you actually uh
balance the two and uh so you have both
economic tensions and also geopolitical
tensions
so i think right now it's a period of
uncertainty and
and
not clear not clear how things are going
to pan out
in terms of the cultural issue i think
again we see a problem challenge now
because
many countries are getting very insular
and as they're getting insular i think
you know there's going to be uh
you know with the exception of the
people who are converted who already
recognize the importance of this
i think you're going to see attentions
emerging between uh
between you know the and one of the
fundamental problems in cultural
adaptation is
who does the adaptation
and so there is
there is a pragmatic question answer to
it
there is a power based answer to it so
if i'm more dependent on you than you
are on me
then maybe i will be forced to make that
adaptation yes
and
that's that's looking at issue of
dependency but
the pragmatic thing is yes even if that
may be the case but if you're going to
do business over the longer term
then i think there needs to be mutual
accommodation and adaptation
but i think it is very difficult because
people seem to be so deeply
rooted in their own cultural identity
and they find it very difficult to get
get out of that
so getting out of that then so how can
listeners to the viewers of this week's
episode learn more about their own
baseline
um culture competence and international
business ability and learn to flex where
can we learn about your work right so i
think the number of things they need to
talk to a lot of people who've had
different kinds of experiences because
you know with diversity you will be you
will
you will realize uh
opportunities or avenues or ways of
doing things that you hadn't realized
before
so i think talking to people with
different backgrounds to people who have
actually lived and worked in different
countries yes that will be a very very
important source of learning and then
you've got to really immerse yourself as
well
in terms of a particular cultural
cultures
and there will always be differences but
i think the key to this is to focus on
the similarities
and to recognize that
we are all united by the fact that we
are all one in some sense
as philosophers or other
spiritual scholars would tell us so i
think we tend to focus on differences
not on similarities
so dr kumar i appreciate all of your
insights today
and uh for sharing some of your
experience of working internationally
and your studies and research i wish you
ongoing success thank you for joining me
on people first thank you thank you for
inviting me and being a guest
thank you so much for joining morag
today if you enjoyed the show please
like and subscribe so you don't miss a
thing if you learn something worth
sharing
share it cultivate your relationships
today when you don't need anything
before you need something
be sure to follow skyteam and morag on
linkedin facebook twitter and instagram
and if you have any ideas about topics
we should tackle interviews we should do
or if you yourself would like to be on
the show drop us a line at info
skyteam.com
that's skye team.com
thanks again for joining us today and
remember business is personal and
relationships matter we are your allies
[Music]