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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:00.00
tylerking
All right? Hello Rick it's a special episode. We're doing the mega episode. Yes, we do this once a year where we look back at the previous year we look forward to the next year and it it normally takes like an hour and a half we'll see it. We'll see how long it takes this time.
00:02.72
Rick
I Called it's the Mega episode.
00:15.61
Rick
No predictions this year though
00:19.22
tylerking
Yeah, yes, we've decided in past years we've made predictions about what we think will happen in the following years I I think I originally proposed that because other podcasts I listened to do that and I find it interesting to listen to but I was trying to come up with him this year and I was like a I've got nothing and b. Looking back at all our predictions they're normally just so wrong that they're not even interesting. Yeah yeah, maybe we we'll see how much time we have at the end we could if we want laugh about at least mine from last year. We're pretty wrong. Ah maybe we'll have time for that. Maybe not.
00:41.85
Rick
Ah, or so boring that they're right like it's It's yeah so anyway.
00:55.15
Rick
Ah.
00:57.14
tylerking
Ah, yeah, how do you want to? do you want to? So the the kind of basic format here. We're going to go through personal updates from last year professional updates from last year and then start talking about next year both personal and professional. Um, we've got what is our biggest worry and what do we want to learn those are kind of the main categories. Ah you want to go first. You want me to.
01:15.72
Rick
Ego first.
01:16.79
tylerking
All right? So I'll start with personal updates from last year um starting with what what I said my goals were going to be last year so I I ah went back and read the notes from last year and I think I kind of struggled to come up with personal goals because I was pretty much like I'm happy things are good I just want to maintain. But. The goals I set were number 1 take more vacation and make up for it with extra work days and I think what I especially meant by that is like I don't want to be a 9 to fiver I want to be in in the early days of lessing serum I was yes I was working really hard. It was more common for me to work at night and over the weekend but also. Wouldn't feel guilty about taking a Wednesday off to go skiing or whatever. Um I think I did some of ah some of that this here I'm giving my myself partial credit I didn't I still don't work nights and weekends as much as I once did or maybe even as much as I'd like to but I do think I did a better job of like. Taking vacation taking more vacation. Um I'm still within like the allowed amount within our budget but kind of I'm I'm more willing to oh you know I I did spend 4 hours over the weekend and I you know it's. 1 p m on a Tuesday and I want to watch Tv I'm going to go watch Tv I think I did more of that type of thing.
02:30.27
Rick
Cool, but still like do you feel like you did more work Did you do more work on the weekends.
02:37.46
tylerking
Um, it's hard to say one of my things here is that I also started doing leg up health work and I I think I did about the same amount of less annoying work as last year and then add the leg up health work on top of that. Yes I think in total I did more work.
02:41.11
Rick
Button.
02:52.33
Rick
Yeah, I'm very interested as we reflect on what how you feel about leg up health. Um because like caf the year you did there was no leg up health after year there was and that wasn't part of the plan.
03:04.42
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, definitely um I Um I also wasn't sure do I put that under my personal goals or professional like it's obviously professional, but like in this podcast you're representing like up health and I'm representing lessening cm you know, but um.
03:07.60
Rick
Yeah.
03:13.60
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
03:19.43
tylerking
1 of my other goal what we'll talk more about leg up I'm sure one of my other goals was um to so I listen to this podcast called I will teach you to be rich and it has this concept of like what's your rich life. It all just sounds really cringe like it's not as bad as it sounds by the name but the idea of like. You should have a vision for what you want to do with your money that would actually make you happy and so a year ago Shelley and I had our first kind of like family meeting about this like if we have extra money. What would we want to spend it on and what we decided is renovating the house to make it better for entertaining people. Basically so I kind of those renovations were one of the goals. I did the input we start we got started on it early last year like in March or something. Um, we just got the architect's plans back like a week ago so no no work is but we still have to find contractors actually do the work we are still so early in the process I hate it.
04:01.93
Rick
Oh my god.
04:07.95
Rick
Hey, but at least you'll be able to like deal deal with the contractors and directly because you're you're managing it all and if people aren't doing it to sue you just find someone else.
04:19.62
tylerking
Yeah I guess does that really strike you as one of my qualities though. Ah yeah I'm going to write a bad Yelp review after this is over.
04:22.96
Rick
Ah, oh I think that looks bad. Ah can he please succeed. He probably just won say they is Shelly going to manage this or are you managing this.
04:32.48
tylerking
Yeah, our general dynamic. We both chip in in in different ways. Ah in our kind of household but anything that involves interacting with other humans generally falls on her plate. Um, and.
04:44.72
Rick
Um, that's probably a good plan.
04:46.90
tylerking
Thankfully my parents have been through a ah, a successful remodel somewhat recently and they may be able to help us out with how to manage this stuff because they're local. Um I don't think that's the plan I think they we use their architect but not their contractors at their recommendation. Um.
04:53.39
Rick
Can you use some like the same contractors.
05:01.60
Rick
Go go.
05:05.89
tylerking
So that's still ongoing. But I think I think I feel ok about what we did there little bit. Yep that the thing is to be clear. Our house is like really nice and like super moving ready like these aren't like oh we're living with black mold type renovations. It's like.
05:11.26
Rick
Um, so you made a little bit of progress towards your rich life.
05:24.84
tylerking
When I'm making cocktails I can't talk to the people in the dining room. That's what we're really talking about here. So it's very much nonessential. Um, and then so those are the 2 goals I set a year ago ah my other like updates. So.
05:28.30
Rick
Ah, yeah, ah, that's awesome.
05:43.94
tylerking
Yeah, um, one for the first time in like almost a decade I found a new band that I like um I used to love I still love music. But I I just listen to the same shit that I always listened to and I don't know about you. Do do you like are even into music early.
05:51.21
Rick
Um.
05:58.87
Rick
Very much I know I have I Love Music Zaable will tell you that I love music I have a son. It was pretty much in every room and ah yeah and I I listen all day every day and it's mostly stuff that.
06:05.18
tylerking
Yeah I do remember that.
06:13.29
Rick
Like was written a decade or plus ago.
06:15.56
tylerking
Yeah, so same I think of a new band like 1 of the oh I just got into this band as someone that I started listening to in like 2009 or something. Um, but this band is Caligula's horse I don't expect the audience I mean this is like yes, it's kind of like a.
06:23.58
Rick
Yep.
06:28.73
Rick
Caiculous horse what is a Caligula.
06:33.20
tylerking
Caligula was a roman empire emperor I think or something like that. Um I don't so it's like prague metal. Yeah, it's not like screaming metal. The the vocals aren't ah heavy. But the the music is pretty heavy. Um I surely like them. Ah I thought maybe this is like.
06:37.10
Rick
Ah, great. What kind of music is it is it metal. Of course.
06:52.44
tylerking
Yeah, oh let's go on like see all the similar artists and listen all of them I didn't like any of the other ones. Unfortunately, but I've I've been listening to their few albums nonstop.
06:59.14
Rick
Question on this. How did you discover them was it Spotify introducing you to them or was it a person.
07:04.50
tylerking
It was a person I was at a wedding and someone else at that wedding who I knew in San Francisco but I don't really talk too much now he was like hey listen to this band. You'll like him and he was absolutely right.
07:18.82
Rick
Yeah I've I've wanted Spotify to introduce me to new music and sometimes it works but it's usually old music that I should have known already. It's not new music. Um, and ah people are the best source of.
07:25.82
tylerking
But.
07:32.70
Rick
Music recommendations if you just ask people. You probably find some other good stuff.
07:35.17
tylerking
Yeah, the problem is I'm I'm pretty picky or I'm pretty specific in what I like and ah, most people would not give me recommendations that I would find valuable. Well.
07:38.90
Rick
Did you? How did this guy set such you up like and really make the make such a good recommendation.
07:49.58
tylerking
We've we've bonded over music like we both play guitar and um, like we share a lot of common music interests and he he likes a lot more than I do so he like also listens to jazz and whatever but he was like this one band I think and and he just nailed it I listen to it like. Normally I have to listen to a song like 20 times before I actually like it this one I the first time I listened to it I was just like wow awesome! Love it? Um, yeah, and then ah I for the first time in my adult life I feel good about my exercise routine.
08:14.58
Rick
Ah, that's cool.
08:24.25
tylerking
Um, which mostly in the past I wouldn't call what I'm doing now an exercise routine I think I let perfect be the enemy of good where I was like because you know when I was younger I was in very good shape I played Water Polo is on the varsity swim team I was in like really good shape and as an adult I kept kind of being like. If I'm doing exercise that won't get me back in that level of shape. It's not even really exercise and this year I think I finally just was like I'm 38 I'm an adult I'm not going to get intense cardio I'm not going to be Jacked. Ah so I started just doing pushups and. Rocking. Are you familiar with Rocking. It's ah it's incredibly douchy name. It's based on like military people carrying Ruck sacks around like basically hiking with weight on your back. Um I don't I don't love like I'm not trying to be a paramilitary dude walking around the park near my house. But.
09:00.22
Rick
Um, what is that sounds awful.
09:08.48
Rick
How.
09:18.14
tylerking
The idea is yeah I I don't mind walking that's one of the few types of exercise that just doesn't annoy me and it's just like if you're walking just put £40 a weight or however much on your back and it goes from being not really exercised to being like sort of kind of exercise.
09:34.38
Rick
That's smart and do you have like a special backpack you wear or is it just like you put some books in a bag and put it on your back.
09:40.60
tylerking
They make special backpacks that so my dad introduced me to this Concept. He's the ah the O G Rucker that I know but he tested out some of the ones they sell specifically for rocking and advised against them because they they like. Basically carry all the weight on your shoulders. All of the like special wrecking ones. Um my dad suggested and I think I agree like basically a hiking backpack with a waist strap you look like an idiot walking around a city wearing this but ah it puts the weight more on your whole abdomen instead of just on your shoulders which is.
09:56.75
Rick
Um.
10:13.27
Rick
Interesting and that this so smart I'm probably I think this is a great idea.
10:13.48
tylerking
Probably better for your body. So I just have like a camel back hiking backpack full of weights. Yeah because and it's still easy enough that like it's not that different from walking but like my watch. Is like hey you're you're exercising good job where if I walk it doesn't say that you know.
10:35.90
Rick
Ah, so this is the first time you felt good about it.
10:36.96
tylerking
Yeah I could that I've gone through stints where I would exercise but I hated it like it was It's never been sustainable. It's like I'll go run on a treadmill and the whole time I'm just like all right fucking hate this I want to stop. We've got a peloton i. That was a little better but I didn't really like that this is this is routine I've got now which is pushups and rocking and that's it. Ah I've done it for six months and like I kind of look forward to it. It's it's just not a burden at all. Um I mean I was already walking this amount. So.
11:03.27
Rick
Does it clear your head too.
11:11.86
tylerking
And or no like I think you need to exercise to like feel good I I don't need that at all I feel great being totally sedentary but you know got to got to get some exercise I know Um, so that's all my updates except leg up health again I don't know where to put that but ah.
11:15.81
Rick
Um, yeah, you don't need that. Yeah interesting.
11:30.58
tylerking
Maybe I'll talk yeah me to um so that's my personal stuff. How about you.
11:30.70
Rick
I'd put it in professional. Yeah put it in professional. Ah yeah, and and I don't know like do we do we go like through like ah full updates or do we talk about our personal goals as part of the reflection and update.
11:47.46
tylerking
Um, you mean like our goals for next year that's we've got that late lower in the notion doc. So I think in the past we've waited on that.
11:47.77
Rick
Yeah, okay, a way to okay, cool. So like yeah, so my personal goals I think like first half of the year if I reflect I did a really good job and then the second half of the year I I did not do such a great job. So I had 2 main ones. Um, the first was get my weight below £200 I was ah started the year about two twenty I put that in perspective. So it was a £20 loss and then my other goal was to write a newsletter most sundays and I basically set a goal of writing 26 newsletters which is the number of weeks. 52 divided by 2 so ah, basically a newsletter every week and I was pacing pretty well on both of these I was at 2 10 in July and I was also from ah from a weight standpoint and I I had written about that you know 13 1412 or 13 newsletters. Um, ah through july. And then um, ah, a new baby came and we bought a house and it didn't go well and I just like totally lost control. Ah I felt like I lost control over this which is so silly to say when you're reflecting because the minute I started reflecting on all this as part of this episode was like I'm such an idiot I could have done something about this.
12:45.35
tylerking
Um.
12:59.59
tylerking
What what would you have done because my like I I saw what you're describing I saw that like the second half of the year was not your best. Ah, you're not thriving during this period but you already had 1 of the most demanding day jobs of anyone I know.
13:00.77
Rick
Way sooner.
13:08.54
Rick
No no.
13:18.46
tylerking
And we're running a startup on top of it and have other interests and then a new child is introduced and it's like ok that's enough and then you had this fairly disastrous house purchasing process which that feels to me like what really put you over the top is that is that right.
13:31.28
Rick
Yeah, it was I frankly, it was well I think um I think the the having the second kid rocked my world in that um two kids are so much harder than one I don't care what anyone says. Least for me it was I I just didn't um I guess like I with 1 kid you you kind of compass the potato and it's oh I could go for a walk or I can go exercise or I can go to sleep I can do I can do whatever I want to for this night or this morning with two kids.
13:56.83
tylerking
Yeah.
14:06.56
Rick
And when one of them's like three months old it's like no no I'm now on on like you know I have the potato twenty four seven while sables taking care of this other baby who needs her and that rocked my world I think that was like the first one that pushed me the edge and then when the house like.
14:15.81
tylerking
Ah.
14:18.47
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
14:25.32
Rick
It was the house was originally supposed to be done in July I don't think we moved in until October November um, and once that started getting delayed and interest rates started going up and the quality of of finishing started to you know like to get questionable I was just ah that that definitely like put me over the edge for sure.
14:44.61
tylerking
Um, yeah.
14:44.85
Rick
But it but it would I could go back and do it differently. It's like none of the stuff I could have controlled but what I could have controlled is waking up in the morning and doing the 2 things that are that made me feel good which are exercising and writing and ah you know.
14:55.39
tylerking
But what would you have cut like so if if if I said that that would be 100% true I could be like instead of sitting and watching Netflix for 2 hours I could have exercised you were just sitting around worrying.
15:04.70
Rick
Worrying I ah I don't know. Yeah, you're probably right I think if I continue now that we're like at a at a breaking point like a break like we've moved the baby's now six months. Old like now it's time to make some changes. Maybe you're right like for the last six months I could I couldn't have I just did the best I could I survived. But um, if I continue this this rate like it is not okay.
15:32.76
tylerking
Yeah I Ah I Totally get that bet back to that podcast that I listened to this is one. He's you know, generally like you need to be disciplined about finances but he's also like sometimes you have a period where you just like you just had a kids the one he always gives he's like you just had a new kid. Pay for help pay for whatever you need go into debt work it out later. This is not the time to be a hero.. That's what he always says. Ah, anyway, so sorry sorry to hear that you aren't feeling great about your goals but it sounds like everything's kind of calmed down and and stuff like that.
15:54.94
Rick
Yeah, totally agree.
16:10.86
Rick
Yeah, it. It definitely things have calmed down. Um we we still have this two kids and so we're in this ah sort of habit of splitting time like. 1 of us takes 1 kid 1 of takes the other and we're ah we're both on all the time instead of having like intentional schedules around like oh I'll have both kids. Ah, you know this morning. You'll have both kids in the evening and that allow allow us to have some personal time. So I think ah you know this gets into my personal goals. But.
16:36.70
tylerking
Um, yeah.
16:44.38
Rick
It's it's ah we're in a period now where we can come together as a family make some changes to how we are doing things to free up pockets of time for other priorities. Um and and and manage it better going forward.
16:55.95
tylerking
Um, yeah cool um yeah I'm I'm kind of excited here about that do I know you asked earlier and I said we we do professional updates First do you want to just do personal goals so you can roll right into that.
17:10.93
Rick
Yeah I feel like it sometimes like it's it's useful to kind of hear how like you're reflecting on something and it's like how does that ping pong into um into you know what? you're prioritizing for the new year I'm happy to do that if you think that's okay yeah okay so
17:23.48
tylerking
Um, know yeah, go for it.
17:27.83
Rick
So basically I I failed at life my personal goals ah second half of the year I'm now in a place. Yeah I feel like I did like it was bad. Um, when we get to my biggest worry I'm going go ahead and say my biggest worry. Okay I'm totally going to flip this. My biggest worry is that? Yeah, there's no order. So but it's one of the.
17:31.83
tylerking
Failed at life.
17:43.35
tylerking
Um, there's no order here. Go ahead.
17:47.29
Rick
Things we have on your biggest worry. So my biggest worry like and when I wrote down as part of this I realize how stupid this worry is because I can totally control this but my biggest worry right now is that I won't figure out how to prioritize and manage my personal health as I build a family um and instead of I spend more time worrying about this. Like if I if I just like went for walks during the times I spent worry about this I'd probably have a 6 pack um like it's it's but but it's it's so stupid but like that's but much my biggest worry right now is like how am I going to have like personal time to do the things that make me happy. You know like I'm not saying that. Having a family doesn't make me happy and having a business doesn't make me happy but like I feel like I you know as part of not hitting my goals for last year like I lost a very important ah kind of ah input a daily input or a weekly input that is critical to my happiness. Um and and so ah. I want to change that big time with my personal goals this year so
18:42.54
tylerking
It sounds similar to a thing I've expressed about myself in the past which is like there's the things you enjoy in the moment like eating ice cream or whatever and there's the things you enjoy that you find fulfilling long term. And what I enjoy doing at work is coding but what I find most fulfilling is like culture and team building and stuff. But I don't actually like doing that so I need to do the coding to keep myself engaged to do the stuff that long term I prefer it sounds like personal health is that.
19:05.69
Rick
19:17.91
tylerking
Ice cream is a bad example because it's the opposite of eating ice cream but you know it's the ice cream in this analogy right.
19:19.32
Rick
Um, exactly yeah and and maybe and perhaps you know I need Um, it's also fulfilling long term right? like ah there's a lot of of compounding that comes from that. But what I heard from that was I need to like ah put my ice cream. Ah. Freezer drawer next to the ah Peloton and I get my ice cream when I do my Peloton um.
19:42.70
tylerking
Yeah, but I I think everyone's been in this situation I certainly have been in the situation where yeah like there's all this important stuff to do There are things you want to do but you know they're not in your case it right? Health is long term important but I Mean. It's not like you're ah like morbidly obese here or anything like you could you could continue doing what you're doing forever. But um, you'll be happier if you can make time for it. But how do you balance out with other stuff.
20:03.28
Rick
Yeah.
20:11.91
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and I and I and I sacrificed it intentionally for other things. The last six months and you know fine. But I know that if I do that it's ah it's a path path. It's a pathway to misery for me. So my my goals and themes for.
20:25.39
tylerking
Um, yeah.
20:29.83
Rick
Personal this year pretty boring like I basically just want to rebuild I don't care how many news I don't care if I write a single newsletter I don't care if I like lose any weight I Just want to get back to like exercising daily writing daily like that habit of just like doing the things that make me happy and if I don't ever publish a newsletter.
20:48.60
tylerking
We have.
20:48.75
Rick
If we're doing this in a year and I don't I haven't publishd single newsletter. That's okay, but if I've written some stuff and I'm proud of that and I'm happy I I feel good about it. you know great but you know the thing is when I start writing stuff I'm going to want to publish it so that stuff will take care of itself. Um, so that's one. Ah, the second is um. This is something that sable asks for so so one one impact of the worrying thing which is primarily around personal health. Um is that I'm not present with my family and it's also work. You know, bring work home and so when I'm with my family sometimes I'm not necessarily someone who goes on their phone and like gets. Distracted that way. But my brain goes elsewhere. So um, I'm going to try to figure out how to be like more intentional about being present when I'm with my family and I think like both of these well all these have a theme I'll get through the next 2 other 2 goals are regular dates with save I want to get back to 2 ah.
21:26.63
tylerking
No.
21:44.51
Rick
Per month minimum just to give this put this some perspective I think table one have had 2 exactly 2 dates in the last six months um so I want to get to 2 a month. Yeah I know it's bad and you if you know it's it's yeah.
21:52.34
tylerking
Those are rookie numbers Rick get those up.
22:01.82
Rick
I have no I have no explanation other than what I've already said so um and then I would like to what 1 thing that I we did. We haven't done really since the baby came is gone a vacation and this Christmas break has reminded me of how important it is just to have an intentional breaking period where it forces like. Dead time and you go oh well I'm doing really well there I'm failing there and you know I just need a break like and get that energy refilled and so I'd like to do 4 vacations and the caveat here is um, ah have 1 at least 1 scheduled at all times to look forward to so like.
22:27.36
tylerking
Mehel.
22:38.84
Rick
And and and ideally they would be you know there would not be like nine more than ninety days without a vacation throughout the year so um I think if I do this for things I will get me back on the right path and then we can have another kid and it all get ruined again? Um, but it'll be okay. Ah ah.
22:43.69
tylerking
Um, yeah.
22:56.70
tylerking
Ah, that's a problem for future rick.
22:58.52
Rick
Ah, future. Rick yeah, but all these require sable and I to adjust our schedule around having two kids and and both having demanding jobs and so there's some work that I need to do with sable to like rearrange how we think about our responsibilities. Um. To you know from child care to work to when we sleep and eat and all like oh those good things. So um.
23:23.11
tylerking
Yeah I mean not to be too clinical about this but it kind of seems like all of these things boil down to project management sort of I know in the moment you're like you wake up with a headache feeling tired and you're like I'm not going to work out and it certainly doesn't feel like project management when you're lying in bed.
23:32.56
Rick
Yep.
23:42.78
tylerking
But yeah, scheduling may and and it all the all the rules we've talked about like having buffer like you have like if you 100% book every single moment of every day then you're fragile right.
23:53.37
Rick
Yep, yeah, and that's part of the problem is you know is that we're We're both sable and and I are are fully booked and we basically we basically only have you know cutting into sleeping hours. Ah in order to do personal things which. Is vicious because you need sleep like so um, but but but the other ah challenging thing is like it's different when you're single is like this requires collaboration right? like sable and I have to agree I can't just like decide not to show up for the kids like that that would not go well for me. Um, and so.
24:09.21
tylerking
Yeah.
24:24.11
tylerking
Ah, right.
24:27.60
Rick
Ah, that's the hard thing about this is it requires like a project joint project management versus like oh I'm just going to change my schedule tomorrow and everything's gonna be great. No, that's not how it works when you're married and have kids um and then ah the the other thing I want to do is this is similar to your thing that you had last year which is I want to.
24:36.64
tylerking
Yeah, cool.
24:46.18
Rick
Figure out I think this will help with me being more present is if every day I'm kind of going to work at 9 coming home at 5 like that doesn't work for me like I need I need ah a night or 2 or a couple more early mornings where I can just like go go deep.
24:57.60
tylerking
Um, ah.
25:04.60
Rick
Into work and like where no one's going to interrupt me and so I want to try getting a couple nights. Um where I'm late in the office you know, getting ahead of work versus reacting to it.
25:15.35
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, I obviously I mean that's very similar to the kind of ah work longer and take more vacation goal I had from last year I totally get where you're coming from where there's a sense of guilt. Even even if even if I'm done with everything. And no one's waiting on me for anything and I'm having a productive week if I if it's five p m and I have like that one email in my inbox and they don't care that I didn't respond today but like all night I'm like there's there's a thing I didn't do whereas if you just do it. Or at least do enough of it that you're like I obviously did more than enough today then you can turn your brain off and say okay I'm not worried about this at all.
25:55.30
Rick
Totally and there's another effect which is when you have that happen on a Monday but you know you have a late night scheduled for Wednesday you can go oh it's okay I'm just going to get to that on Wednesday but if you don't have that at your disposal. That's it's but a form of buffer like it's a disguised form of buffer.
26:02.84
tylerking
No yeah.
26:12.97
tylerking
Yeah, absolutely cool I like it a lot I Thanks for sharing I I don't hear people admit to some of this stuff on publicly. Ah, the way you do and I I but I think everyone feels it Just no one says it. So.
26:13.90
Rick
So.
26:26.30
Rick
Yeah, yeah, well I that that definitely I'm not proud of myself. Ah like for personal health management. Um, and I think I I but you know in in some cases I've done. Okay, but um onward.
26:37.76
tylerking
Yeah, cool. Um, so I guess I'll do my personal goals. Ah my minor so base you know not having kids it turns out really ah makes life easy. Ah minor just maintain the exercise thing I just said so specifically I want to. Average at least 9000 steps a day. Why 9 why not 10 just because I found that 9 is what I can do. Yeah if I I tried 10 for a while and I was like I always felt like I was like oh I walked the amount I want to walk. Um.
26:59.16
Rick
Yeah buffer. But.
27:12.70
Rick
You're going to get jacked 200 pushups
27:13.20
tylerking
No absolutely. But I am in better I yeah so two hundred pushups a week and I try to do them all on one day if I can because I feel like you get ah for strength stuff you get a better results if you just concentrate. It is my experience. Um 9 a thousand steps a day and. Two days a week of rocking so the steps and the rocking kind of go hand in hand. But that's basically like going for maybe an hour long walk 5 times a week two of which I'm carrying weight with me that type of thing. Um, so I've been doing that since June I hope.
27:40.99
Rick
Yeah, that's great. Do you ever do pull-ups.
27:48.92
tylerking
I love so pushups and pulls are the only 2 kind ofwasi strength things that I like the problem is I cannot figure out a way to get a pullup bar mounted anywhere in my house. The doors are kind of they have weird molding so those ah those ones you hang in your door frame. Don't fit. Um. Figure it out one day. But basically I don't have a pull up bar to use. Yeah, we we have one at the office so Wednesdays and Thursdays when I'm in the office I do pullups but I don't it's kind of like other people are around. It's kind of a weird place to like do a workout. Um, ah.
28:09.49
Rick
Um, but you would use 1 if you had 1
28:19.11
Rick
Um, know I know? Yeah yeah I Just I'm just imagining like the everybody munch and you go over to the Pullup bar and your like shirt goes above your belly button while you're.
28:25.54
tylerking
Yeah, so and.
28:31.66
tylerking
Well, it's it's in this like back. So my office I have like the worst office ah kind of leaders eat last type thing. It's in this back dimly lit hallway and that's where the pull up bar is but but 1 time so most of the time you do it and no one sees but 1 time I like finish doing some pull ups. And someone else is just like looking at me like there's 1 office that has a view and they're just like nice I'm like okay I'm I'm never doing pull ups when you're around. Ah.
28:59.98
Rick
Ah, that's awesome.
29:04.62
tylerking
Um, but I think the key the key for this whether it's rocking or walking or pushups or pullups I If if I have to like shift mindset and be like I'm going to go work out I won't to do it and the key for all of these with the pushups and the pullups I Just do it. You know I'm at my desk. I'm thinking about something I'm feeling kind of energetic I'm like I'm I'll just do 50 pushups right now and it's not going to.. It's over in like a minute you know it doesn't take a long time and then I'm just back to Work. It's I'm not like putting on workout gear and going to do it or whatever. So That's what I've learned about myself This last year is I just need to make it not. And need to make it fit into what I'm doing anyway. Um, and then the other one is finish the house remodel don't really have much else to say there or start. Yeah, um, yeah, we'll see how that goes in 2027 I'll be like it finally happened.
29:42.16
Rick
That's great or start it.
29:55.92
Rick
Ah, do you think you'll continue the vacation stuff on the um play play theme or is that just baked in now.
30:01.21
tylerking
Um I think it's baked in it's mostly but I I would say where I am now is not where I it's not what I was envisioning a year ago when I set that goal but it's a little bit better. It's maybe 10% of the way there and it and that 10% is baked in. Um.
30:19.20
tylerking
A thing that changed a lot is leg up health for me because when I set those goals I didn't have anything that needed me to work weekends or nights. Um, and so I felt like I was kind of losing my drive a little bit with less annoying just because like life is so comfortable and the work is so calm I Never like. There's never a hair on fire like oh I need to work tonight type of thing leg up Health. That's the only time I have to work on it and so it's not that it's hair on fire that I've never felt a real like deadline exactly. But it's like if I want to get anything done I have to do at nights and weekends does that make sense.
30:54.68
Rick
Yeah yep makes sense.
30:57.73
tylerking
So um, all right want to move on to professional stuff. Cool I Don't again I don't know where maybe you talk about your stuff and all fit in my leg up health stuff with that or I don't know cool.
31:00.57
Rick
Sure.
31:09.39
Rick
Yeah that's I think that's good. So um I have I'll cover windfall first so we can just wrap it with leg up. Um, so so my day job is at a company called windfall I don't speak too detailed about it on a podcast but 1 of my goals for ah windfall last year was. Or this year was um, was becoming a domain expert and I guess the context here is in my last company. It was really my other job but I I was a domain expert I knew as much as anyone about the competitive landscape about the um space about what our customers needed about what? um. What? Ah the users that the customers needed um and the regulatory implications, etc, etc. And when I joined windfall it was a whole new space. Um, ah, if you're unfamiliar with it. It's basically a data company that um provides people intelligence to consumer brands. Um, and nonprofits and it's ah it's just rocked it's rocked my world it worked my when I first joined windfall two or three years ago it rocked my world in terms of like oh I do I know nothing? Um, and so this year I really wanted to to to close the gap there and and learn more and I'm much more fluent in. Space both like the like what to call like the data space the martech space and then also speaking the language of retailers financial service firms and these other ah business to consumer large business to consumer entities. Um, and so I feel good about it. Um I would call that a successful like you know, doing much better. Um.
32:41.88
tylerking
Um, yeah.
32:43.74
Rick
And but I don't need to make it a focus anymore. It's just like now it's like kind of I've I've crossed that point where it's like oh yeah, everything sort of makes sense when I learn it versus like you know when you're reading something and you're like you have to like look up all the words because you don't know what any of the words mean that's where I started and now it's like oh yeah I get the gist here. This is cool. Um.
32:54.97
tylerking
Um, yeah, that's great and you're a pretty high level there like you don't you don't need to be like a hands on expert at this stuff. You just need to be like capable of sitting in a meeting right.
33:09.50
Rick
Well, yeah I mean I need to I need to be a well I'm my my I run revenue operations there which which requires building playbooks for the sales team. Um, and ah, starting to build out some of the marketing stuff and that requires a significant level of domain expertise to do right? Um, think about like. Marketing messaging how that turns into sales scripting email templates that kind of thing. So yeah, actually I did need to know a lot of this stuff.
33:31.68
tylerking
But but I mean are you actually the one preparing these things. You're not That's not delegated.
33:38.90
Rick
Ah, right now it's it's it's um, drafted by others but it needs a lot of um, let's just call it editing um and and help we're kind of at that phase where it's like.
33:47.34
tylerking
Gotcha.
33:51.30
Rick
There's ah, a subset of people who kind of get it and we're figuring out how to scale getting it as we add more people and and so there's ah, there's kind of ah a need for a tighter management effort um over the next few months um but yes so I do need to know that stuff. But then once you sort of document it and get it.
34:04.51
tylerking
Okay, that makes sense it.
34:10.12
Rick
Um, sort of injected. Um, what you've done a great job at like at less swing C Herem like then then the next person who comes in doesn't need to know as much.
34:17.20
tylerking
Yeah, it makes sense. There's it. It reminds me of an ongoing debate in the tech industry about like should should product managers and project managers and designers and people in that Realm know how to code and I think the conclusion has to be like no not like. You can't expect every single designer to also be a great software engineer but like knowing the even if you're not coding knowing how code works is super valuable if you're doing any kind of Pm or design type of role. It's a huge level up. And and it sounds like kind of the same type of thing you're talking about here.
34:54.27
Rick
Yeah, yeah, and and a huge impact to the company I get my my because of my increase in domain Expertise my ability to help the the the organization grow in different ways. Um is is is larger and therefore my opportunity win Falls Larger So it's It's been a overall good.
35:08.37
tylerking
Um, yeah.
35:11.38
Rick
Good investment. Um, so that's that's when fall. So I'd I'd call it a check there and more with Mord you know is never You're never done there and then the the rest of my goals were focus on supporting the growth of leg up health. Um, so so number 1 goal was retain jd fulltime for another year and assuming he doesn't quit in the next three days. Ah. I would call this a success. Um, but no, it was. He's we're we're heading the right direction. Um, the second was double the client base again. So but was going from roughly a hundred people to 200. We got to 160 people which was which was I would call it a close call but but but we we kind of. Diverted our attention away from so last year we were just focused on serving consumers. Um, and as part of our shift this year we expanded to serving businesses and and and that kind of flows into the next goal which was building v one of leg up benefits. Um I think when we were talking last year I was like I'm to hire a coder. Um, and they're going to build leg up benefits of version one and we're going to get to a million a thousand dollars a month in mrr um.
36:07.35
tylerking
Ah, her.
36:13.80
tylerking
You also went through a period I don't know if this is where you were a year ago but for there was a period where you thought you were going to code it I don't remember how long ago that was um, yeah.
36:21.34
Rick
I was it was it was that or hire someone I remember that and I interviewed coders and um at some point ah you sort of raised your hand and said what about me? Um, and that was like the best that was probably the the most unexpected, best biggest win um of the year. Um. And ah, and but we also um, the reason we didn't hit our double the client base again. Goal is we we got into group health insurance and we actually brought in more revenue from those group health insurance customers than we would have from 40 more individual clients. So this is kind of one of those things where it was like a good miss. Um, in some ways a bad miss in others. Um. And then yeah we did build v one of the legup benefits. Um, but we didn't hit 1000 ah per month in Mrr um, ah we did get 2 to 3 clients but they haven't paid us yet and and a handful of free ones. Um, but overall like ah.
37:09.63
tylerking
Well.
37:15.28
Rick
Leg up health doubled in revenue I just um, published the um the updated metrics for December and where we've surpassed a hundred k in annual orcurring revenue this month and we're profitable. Um in December so pretty cool, pretty cool going into the to the new year with that number.
37:28.88
tylerking
Hell? Yeah yeah, that's Awesome. So The goals are the things that were achieved are slightly different from what you predicted, but like they all kind of average out to more almost to an exact hit. Like didn't exceed it really but almost exactly hit what the goals were in terms of how good the outcome is.
37:47.50
Rick
Fundamentally I knew that if we doubled the business J D would be excited if we doubled the business and got into like some employer product. Ah we would We would be in a good position to continue this going at this thing and we did that and we did that more We got you on board. We got um.
37:59.62
tylerking
Um, yeah.
38:04.15
Rick
Ah, we we and it went into the group health insurance business. You know as a result we can now any Utah small business owner. We talk to. We can say what do you do do you offer group health insurance. Yes, no yes, we can help you? No oh we do do you give people money. Oh we can help you? Oh you don't give any people money. Do you buy help and we can help you.
38:17.23
tylerking
Oh no.
38:21.65
Rick
So literally we can help our ideal customer no matter what? So it's pretty exciting.
38:26.65
tylerking
Yeah, one of the things I observed just being in the because most of my involvement with leg of health is sitting in meetings with you and Jd and kind of hearing what you say but um, the shift from when there was just one product or even kind of 2 of the three Jd's kind of mentality was I need to talk to people and I need to convince them that instead of doing so things c which we don't do they should do a or b which we do and that that's a that's persuasion. It's sometimes you have a conflict of interest where maybe they actually should do things see the. The weight that seems to be lifted off Jds shoulders as soon as it was like you don't have to convince them of anything. Whatever they want to do just help them. Do it that seemed like a pretty big shift for the business.
39:09.61
Rick
Totally. The only thing that we're basically changing is like hey we whatever you're doing. We're going to confirm that it's the right thing for you to do and if it's not, we're going to help you find the right thing and we're and whatever you decide to do. We're to do it better than anyone else if you don't believe that that's all we have to convince you of.
39:23.60
tylerking
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah now I Um, it's It's a weird spot because like from my perspective we're still miles away from what I think any of us would call success and also like.
39:27.23
Rick
Which isn't that hard.
39:41.87
tylerking
Everything seems so good. You know.
39:44.31
Rick
Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's true. Ah, it'll be an interesting year at like about what were your reflections on leg up health.
39:51.16
tylerking
Yeah, so first of all so I I've been trying to remember the actual origin story of how it came to be I mean from your perspective I just raised my hand I know talking like my dad and I go on long walks and talk about business stuff and that's. That's where it concreted in my head I don't know if it was his idea or I don't know anyway, that was a huge unlock for me because I love less knowing serum I yeah as I've said many times before and I I truly mean it I want it to be the last job I ever have like I'm I'm in this for another forty years if I can. But the business doesn't need an entrepreneur anymore like it's it's it's not big, but it's mature um things aren't changing that quickly I need to be some combination of an operator in terms of like being a Ceo manager type mixed with maybe an individual contributor. But. As an individual contributor at less wing serum I have to fit in with what the rest of the team's doing and for good reason they move a lot slower than I want to because like they don't want to ship bugs and stuff like that. So I kind of had this un unmet like I want to be an entrepreneur I want to do stuff. Quick and dirty I want to cut corners I want to move fast I want to experiment and learn and I wasn't getting that at lessoing serum and like lego health is just 100% scratch that itch which is both good for leg up health. But it's also great for my role at less annoying serum because I'm just.
41:20.47
tylerking
I'm not wondering like what if like is this actually what I should be spending my time doing I'm like yeah I'm getting I'm getting everything I want between these two things.
41:28.62
Rick
And that's awesome. Yeah I do think it was your dad that triggered this because I think so ah we talked about it after that conversation with your dad and um I mean it was it went pretty quickly from there.
41:39.53
tylerking
Yeah I this is this is an example of what I love about the entrepreneurship entrepreneurship side of things I was just like hey Rick what if I did this and you're like yeah, let's do it and they're like okay, it's done um, which like you just can't make that big of a decision that quickly at at a at lessening serum. But um. Yeah, you know it's interesting though. Leg up health isn't a tech company really and I I came in to build the employer product and just my my Dna and and the muscle memory I have from lessing serum is like okay, it's built. How are we going to improve it how we going to keep making it better and so on and. Ah I think there's a lot of work for me to do still but almost none of it is on improving the the product that the end user experiences. Um, it's kind yeah it's kind of good it's it's mostly good sorry as a side project for me. It is great that legup health is not a tech company. It also though has. Reinvigorated me for last night serum that it's like I wouldn't want this to be my full time job. You know.
42:40.00
Rick
Yeah I get it that makes sense. Um, the other thing that was interesting about leg up and and and bringing you on was we had an initial hypothesis that you would build this product. Um, that was fairly like specific. Around reimbursing people for their health insurance and you flew out in July and ah over the course of a few days of us just brain overing and talking about it. We pivoted the the thing ah pretty quickly to um to a diff like you rebuilding the nocode app for the consumer. As phase one and then taing on a very basic version of leg up benefits as part two and I thought that was ah that actually unlocked a huge thing for me which was I got out of the middle of this no-code crap app that I had built that was actually preventing Jd from taking more ownership over.
43:18.23
tylerking
Ah.
43:35.61
Rick
Serving customers and by by kind of having you build that rebuild that ah a better version of that with the ability to you know, continuously improve it. Jd's been able to take full ownership over the customer experience. Um, and now I'm more just supporting him doing that and I think that was a big big milestone. This year
43:55.60
tylerking
Yeah I'm curious to um, two years ago you and I were talking about no code all the time on this podcast. Um, given that experience. What are your thoughts on no code like you don't hear about it nearly as much anymore. But are you. Do you think this is the model build it no code and then have it replaced does have you lost any faith in no code.
44:15.91
Rick
Um, no I thought it was a great training ground for me to like play around with stuff figure out what was possible approve kind of the concept. Um, it also helped me um, get to a certain revenue stage where like I don't I think like if I came to you and said hey here's an idea like it'd be a lot less interesting than hey here's a. Ah, product with $50000 in revenue per year I'd like to figure out how to get to a hundred and if we're if we can get to a hundred. We could probably get it to a million would you like to be a part of that. That's a very different conversation. Um talking to a developer. So I think ah I think like I think it allowed me to prove a concept. Um, ah.
44:42.12
tylerking
Um, in.
44:50.79
tylerking
Yeah.
44:54.10
Rick
And without hiring and developing the coding skills in hindsight I wish I just taught myself how to code like I feel like this. That's what I don't know like yeah, okay.
45:01.76
tylerking
Um, I'm going to push back on that I think though which is knowing how to code and knowing all the things you need to know to build production software are kind of 2 different things and for example, you majored in computer science. You took you? you know how to code but like there.
45:12.88
Rick
Yeah I know how to code. Yeah I know to code.
45:17.88
tylerking
I Think it's very hard to just casually know what you need to know you you have to really devote time to it that you don't have I think you're obviously capable of it I Just don't think you have time.
45:26.32
Rick
I did have it though I Guess that's what I'm trying to say is like I I chose to put that time into stringing nocode together and playing with that stuff instead of really going all in on building. Ah a coded app. Um, which it I would have gotten probably to the same result which is something that wasn't that good. Um that you know needed. You know, subtlc needed to be rebuilt.
45:49.25
tylerking
yeah but yeah, I yeah it'd be interesting. We'll never know the the contrapositive but that'd be interesting I do want to I don't want to go too deep in this? Um, but um, I you you mentioned kind of the nocode app helped you attract me. This does tie to a lot of nontechnical founders have this conversation of like like so what? the what? the naive founder is saying is I'm a nontechnical founder I want to ah have someone build my app and either I want to pay them below market rate or offer them like a pathetic amount of equity. They're not a founder They're not a co-founder I'm in charge they're going to work for me. But I don't have any money to pay them. What do I do and like if you don't want to if you can't pay someone. They're market rate you have to make up for it in some kind of sharing of the upside but the thing is like if you're not bringing anything to the table. The developers are going to be like oh sure I'll take 5 % of the equity when I'm you have literally nothing yet and you want me to build the whole thing from scratch and like one way to do this is go raise money from investors and you can say what I'm bringing is money or go get some presales or whatever. But yeah, the no code thing is another interesting path towards this of saying like.
46:42.50
Rick
So.
47:00.68
tylerking
Like look I validated the idea you you know I'm not a piece of shit because I like I'm not a huckster here I actually put the work in and built a thing that that that matters. Yeah I I hadn't thought of it that way. But you're probably right I wouldn' have joined like up Health had you not built the no code app. But the yeah no code.
47:17.40
Rick
Yeah, so um, the thing I always think about when I when I think about this concept is we had an episode early on where I was asking you like how do I if I want to build an app like how do I find a developer and you're like give away 50% of your company and you'll get someone. That's great.
47:34.48
Rick
And I was like ah and the other thing you said was like go build a business and then and then you know it it changes things if it's a real business. But if you have an idea That's what it costs to find someone good. Um.
47:34.80
tylerking
Yeah.
47:43.25
tylerking
Yeah, it's it's a great example, you did it the hard way and it's too early to say it worked exactly but you you got a working full code app without giving up anywhere near 50% of the equity. It just took 3 years longer than it would have otherwise.
48:01.95
Rick
Exactly and yes, yes, yes, yes, and and and we left some opportunity on the table from a growth standpoint like probably a significant amount but the cool thing is like um that I should I share the profit right? that? um I thought I said we were at 100 k a and orcurring revenue it's about 8000 ah plus ah.
48:08.40
tylerking
No.
48:19.85
Rick
And monthly recurring revenue like what like worst case, scenario here is like you would Jd go I'm done I quit and I just you know pay myself back what I put into the business like that's my worst case scenario now.
48:33.91
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, it's a I mean the name of the start. The podcast is startup to last and um, it's It's a long term way to go about it. But it seems to be working.
48:37.36
Rick
Yeah.
48:42.61
Rick
You know, but best case scenario is we can make this into a million dollars a year and um have a great business.
48:51.44
tylerking
Yeah, um, cool. So we've talked about updates from last year do you want to go into your goals.
48:57.76
Rick
Sure, um, yeah, so goals for this year um I want to double the business again. Ah last year I funded eighty this year I funded $85000 um I next year. Don't want to fund anything. So basically I want to double I want to basically take what we've got and double it again without putting more money into the company which means it has to be done profitably. Um, so that's a pretty big constraint. So I've got a couple of things I want to like basically I want to apply the prop. Profit. What's called the profit first framework there's a book called profit first I highly recommend reading it skimming it. Whatever um, but it's all about like paying yourself first. Um, and so there's 3 things I want to start doing one is I want to trim expenses I've already gone through a precursor. Ah cursory review with with Jd and identified. Um, some money that just we don't need to be spending. Um, the second thing is I want to start paying. Ah ah, a small partner distribution. Um, as the first expense um in it like as a percentage. So maybe it's 1% of 8 what's 1 % of Eight thousand dollars eighty dollars yeah so $80 will be the but the the first partnerships. Ah, ah we can hold it. Ah we can hold it for you? Um, but ah, you'll take it. Ah, it's a drink. It's a beer a beer a month. Um.
50:10.38
tylerking
Um, you're going to mess up my taxes over eighty dollars
50:21.79
tylerking
Ah, no I'll I'll take it.
50:27.39
Rick
So ah, but but pay that and then you know hopefully like that that gets us all our beak sweat and we're like hey how do we make this this a bigger you know pie and then um, the the third priority is getting Jd to a start compensation and wrapped into this is ah the idea that. Um, the business only goes as far as Jd goes and so we're retaining Jd for another year if not, you know, setting up retaining him for another decade. Ah you know or 2 um, that's kind of the point and so getting him to his target compensation which we've discussed um. Is the priority once we kind of implement this partner first break and then once we get him to his target comp. We can then start discussing. Okay, what do we want to do next? Um, and whether that's you know, getting getting um you know putting hires in place getting me more involved in the business somehow etc. Ah, it just.
51:11.92
tylerking
Naha.
51:19.72
Rick
That's a, but that's a distant conversation and but anyway that's that's the that's the priority for leg of health and then I have a windfall goal.
51:27.79
tylerking
Cool, um, quick reaction to that? Yeah I like it I'm excited about it I don't think I personally am as excited about the idea of like paying out partner distributions as you are um, which isn't to say you're wrong or whatever I'm only sharing this because as as the boss. It's good to know how you can emotionally manipulate your team and I'm telling you this particular one is not going to manipulate me but but I like what I like about it is a thing that happened at lessnoing serum that if I could go back I would change is the moment we made enough money to hire someone. We did. And so we were kind of always at this breakeven point and it never no one ever like walks up to you and says hello. It's time to start making profit. Um like because arguably maybe that first hire or 2 or 3 were correct but at some point we we were too fragile of an organization and I think Legup Health could have gone down a path. Of. Well you know, let's take you know we're more we're we're not losing as much money as we were but instead of Rick investing eighty whatever thousand this year he'll invest 50000 but we can hire someone that way and then next year we'll only lose 30000 but then when we're at 30000 for growing fast. Well let's actually hire another person and go back to 100000 and you can just kind of like stay in this weird purgatory forever where it's like kind of sustainable but it's not what you want? Um what I like about this is it forces not bringing on additional expenses because if it if you do.
52:55.79
tylerking
You've blown up the whole profit thing. So I am very excited about that aspect of it.
53:00.37
Rick
Yeah, that's the that's the more important piece right? It's the ah the when I reviewed this with Jd this framework with Jd um, earlier this week or maybe it was last week. Um, we we went through some expenses. He's like this changes how I look at every expense. Um, and so that's the point right? like um and.
53:11.72
tylerking
Yeah.
53:18.36
Rick
And so ah anyway I'm excited about this. This doesn't get into any sort of detail about how we're going to do this I'm happy to talk about that if that's of interest. Um I figure that's what our podcast regular podcast is for um, but this is sort of like the the big goal is like how do we get to $200000 in annual occurring revenue. Um.
53:26.17
tylerking
The.
53:34.57
Rick
By ah December January timeframe next year and I think it's very doable.
53:37.28
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, definitely um, cool How about the windfall goal.
53:42.71
Rick
Yeah, so um, I'm at the point at windfall where there's every day there is every week every month every year there's going to be more work assigned to me or that I'm responsible for than can get done and so I've got to get better at at.
53:51.75
tylerking
Well.
53:57.52
Rick
Saying this is this thing is the most important thing um and all the other things don't matter until this thing gets done and working on this that thing versus like trying to do all the little things and so um I need to this that one of our core values at windfall is leverage every optimization. It's like 1 of the. Best things I've learned at windfall from a framework perspective. But I've got to start actually like living that every day. Um, and I think it will make my my life better and I think my my impact will increase.
54:27.18
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, they should want you to do this but like you've got so much other stuff in your life as well that you kind of have to even even if you were like I don't care about windfall at all, you still kind of have to do that right? Um, yeah, cool I like it.
54:37.80
Rick
Yeah, so more of a theme than a goal.
54:43.95
tylerking
Yeah I mean this is going to be 1 of those that how do you judge if it happened but it'll be it'll be vibes and that's okay I'm good with that type of goal all right got to be. Um, yeah so professional updates from last year so the goals I set.
54:53.30
Rick
Got to be right? What about you.
55:02.62
tylerking
And our episode a year ago one was to get back to decent growth which I defined as adding ah 36 karr per month which is three k m r per month did not to do well depends on how you want to look at this so like to jump ahead. The biggest thing that happened for the business. Even though it took very little time. Ah ah from me or anyone on the team is we decided to increase prices for our legacy users so that they're going to be paying our normal price of $15 per month instead of our old price of 10 um that immediately. Well we're going to see how many people churn but I'm guessing we add. Seven hundred Thousand a r from that or something so it won't go into effect until July that's when we'll know but ah in in a sense. Yeah, we're getting the the growth we wanted and more obviously it's not the same thing because like.
55:43.20
Rick
Um.
55:57.13
tylerking
You're you can only squeeze so much water from a stone right? Ah, but in terms of like if the business needs money to operate in that sense revenue goal will be checked easily far and away beyond my expectations starting in July of 2024 in terms of actual like trajectory and the future health of the business I would say this was a fail I've talked about that a bunch on the podcast I'm still pretty optimistic about things. But um, that is that is the the ongoing concern to to deal with right now.
56:29.80
Rick
Do I talk about that more right now or do you want to talk about that as part your forward looking goals.
56:34.50
tylerking
Um, yeah, we can talk about it as part of the for. Well I'll talk about it right now only to say one of the things I'm so excited about with this price change and and I love it. You know companies always say we're increasing prices which is actually good for you. The customer and you're like fuck off Amazon that.
56:48.88
Rick
And now you're doing it.
56:52.00
tylerking
Well no, but here's here is the difference is I can point to a very concrete change that we're making that we wouldn't be making if not for the price increase that is absolutely good for our current customers and that is I'm not. I am not going to justify what we work on for the next year with a growth lens. We're just going to. We're just going to make I I believe in my heart of hearts that the way to grow this business is to have the best product possible. It is going to take years to prove that and it may be it may be wrong. But I'm at least committing this next year to like we're just going to do that and we wouldn't be like over the last. Yeah, exactly the the buffer we talk about buffer all the time and now I I have enough buffer to be like.
57:29.64
Rick
Your price increase your price increase bought you that luxury.
57:40.77
tylerking
Yeah, like worst case scenario we spend a year making the product way better and then a year from now we have to get back into growth mode. But um, the customers will observe. They will notice a more meaningful improvement to the product because of this.
57:54.83
Rick
I'm glad you said that stuff because what what I'm seeing this now is like you didn't necessarily accomplish this goal but you set you gave yourself time to accomplish to to actually accomplish it.
58:03.50
tylerking
Yeah, and yes I a hundred percent and I think the way I was trying to accomplish it before was pretty short term like focused because it needed to be and if you if if you can think long term a whole different set of options present themselves.
58:16.98
Rick
Yeah, that's awesome man. Good good job who yeah either way you, you're gonna you? You're gonna do. You're in a much you're in a position to do the best you much better than you could have done under the constraints that you were.
58:20.72
tylerking
Well I appreciate that let's see if it works but I'll have a good year Either way.
58:34.10
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, especially because we're doing all this product led growth stuff over this last year and the the reality is I think we executed on it well and none of it worked which kind of means like the whole like focus on growth I Know what you would say is like well it's not all about product like go actually do real marketing and fair enough.
58:36.16
Rick
Working under so that.
58:52.46
tylerking
We were doing that too. But um, it's pretty clear that little growth hacks are is not the way out of this. Um, so we got to try something else anyway. But um, my next goal was to have a sense of urgency on the dev team so prior to. This this started kind of the end of last year so it's not technically a change. We made this year but in the past we always had this idea of what we call a jog which is a playoff the the sprint concept like every two weeks let's like reevaluate the project. We're working on like let's basically plan work in two weeks increments and then replan it again. Two weeks later problem is before there was no real oversight over this so we'd give someone a project that we thought would take two weeks then we said meet schedule meeting with us with me specifically when you're done and since we think this is a two week project we should meet every two weeks and then like six months would go by and there was no meeting. Um, and this is partially maybe the individual Dev's fault but I mean not really like this is my fault and just the system's fault. So this year is the first full year where we've actually had real project management in place Robert who's the the team lead and I who I'm kind of the product manager here meet with every developer every two weeks we refocus people and I can't tell you how many times over the last year someone's been going off just in totally the wrong direction. Ah they got distracted by something they let scope creep come in without really thinking about it having these it's it's not just these check-ins. It's also we have a whole system around it. But.
01:00:23.73
tylerking
The sense of urgency is back like people are thinking I need to get shit done in the next two weeks because I'm going to have another one of these meetings in two weeks and I don't want to have nothing to show for it. Yeah I feel really good about that one.
01:00:31.59
Rick
That's awesome and does that mean like are you seeing that the the end result of that in terms of like feature releases and productivity.
01:00:43.14
tylerking
Yes, so I'm kind of going out of order here but like 1 of the big I'm actually ah preparing a like kind of end of your presentation for the whole company that's going to say what I'm about to say to you but um. I think if you want to tell the story of less knowing serum the first several years it was just me and Bracken. We shipped fast hit product market fit things were great then we shifted into I'm not the 1 coding other people are and through a combination of my own incompetence slash not hiring the right people at first I think we eventually did but like. We went through a period of terrible execution like 4 to 6 ix years depending on how you want to count it and then there was like this kind of getting back to where we are I'd say the last year or two good execution but not on the things that customers notice. Like I told I've already said this on the podcast but we build zapier 30 people use it woohoo we built a new api nobody none of our customers are coders. They don't know how to use an Api. Ah we we built this search index search elastics search thing that only really helps an account that has like 500000 plus context which almost none of our customers. Do. We built a lot of shit effectively. But I don't think it was the right shit and so the theme that I want going forward is well. Customer perception is how I'm thinking about this It's not enough to build stuff. It's not enough to make the product better if the customer doesn't perceive that the product got better.
01:02:07.61
Rick
That it didn't didn't matter.
01:02:09.75
tylerking
You know? yeah exactly so I'll I can talk more about that in a second but that's kind of where this is all leading um another goal I had was end the year with three major product wins I define those as a good enough professional looking design. We did a.
01:02:15.50
Rick
Yeah, cool.
01:02:29.16
tylerking
Ah, major redesign um, checking that one off we have not forced all our old customers over to it yet but all new customers have been on it for the last I think six months or something like that which is all that matters I'm I'm in no rush to move the old customers over um finish. We had all a set of growth projects kind of. Product led growth type things. These were all hypotheses of if we build the zapier integration we can get listed on their marketplace will that be a channel for us if we build an Api platform will we get more integration partners and get customers from them. Um those both we executed I think well on they didn't work as growth channels. Um, and then the redesign was was the other one so I had four on there I also wanted to do a viral loop thing that's going to happen in 2024 instead of 2023 but ah, 3 out of 4 I'm ok with that.
01:03:20.90
Rick
That's good man. Um, and what what I guess did did will this continue the serm like the serm competition like closing the gap will will you continue to focus on that.
01:03:30.46
tylerking
Serum competition. Oh yeah, so that's next. But yeah, so I think so so um, you're reading the notes here, but let me explain for the listener like in addition to these growth projects. There's kind of this idea that. When someone goes looking for a crm they just have an expectation of what features Crm's going to have and if we don't have those basic features. They're not even going to consider you know there's there's 300 crms on g two they're not going to consider one that doesn't have like the ability to send an email which we don't um, we did not make much progress on that in 2023 that is. Still very much a top priority in 2024.
01:04:07.44
Rick
Cool. Yeah, that seems like a big customer perception one.
01:04:15.24
tylerking
Yeah, absolutely um I'm I'm kind of again I'm preparing this talk for employees which is why I have all this ready to go but the analogy I'm going to make is like would you? Um, if you're buying a car or not buying. Let's say you can get it for free. But you' either have half of a lamborghini or a full dodged dart and you'd rather have the full dodg dart half of a lamborghini is not very useful. Um, so like meeting customer expectations just having a working car is the first part and then beyond that. Well how do you make it better and it depends like if. You're lamborghini like more horsepower I don't know anything about cars I might say something stupid here but more horsepower or if it's a bentley like really nice wood and leather interior or whatever and then the question is well what what kind of car are we and the answer is we are a minivan and minivan sell because they have a lot of cupholders. Um, which by which I mean it's not going to be sexy. It's not about having powerful features and all that it's about being comfortable and practical. That's always been where we've fit in the market. So next year. It's going to be a combination of trying to get the whole car built mixed with. More cup holders to kind of delight. The people who are already happy enough with the product. That's all ah credit to my brother Thanks Bracken. Um, so I'm kind of mixing updates from last year and and goals with next year um
01:05:26.58
Rick
That's awesome I Like that analogy a lot.
01:05:40.40
tylerking
But yeah I think that the the the only other goal I had was if there's a recession get through it without any layoffs. There wasn't a recession. So I guess Mission accomplished or I don't know how you want to define it. There wasn't some kind of major economic downturn that there was nothing to get through for us I think.
01:05:45.98
Rick
Um, you don't think so did was there not a recession.
01:05:58.21
tylerking
I mean I don't think our growth problems are related to any macroeconomic trends. Um, we will see. Yes, Yeah, if you just wait long enough eventually. Ah and then other updates I had here see I Talked about the price increase the Dev team.
01:06:03.78
Rick
We will see. Yeah, ah.
01:06:16.54
tylerking
I've talked about this a bunch so I won't go into too much detail but we've kind of had three ish new devs 2 of our devops people are switching over to like actually work on the product for real and 1 more person. Um from the cm coaching team joins so they're all very raw. They haven't really like meaningfully moved the needle in 2023 but by the end of 2024 we will have gone from. 5 reasonably experienced devs to 8 total 3 of whom are still early in the journey but they should be contributing pretty meaningfully by later that that year. Yeah I I think there's a good chance 10 years from now looking back on it.
01:06:47.18
Rick
That's that's crazy.
01:06:53.84
tylerking
If you if when so you know do people ask you like what's the biggest mistake you've made I feel like that's kind of a cliche question. Okay, go do some podcast interviews they'll ask you that but I I don't I have a lot of mistakes but I don't know that like 1 really stands out. But I think 10 years from now I'm going to look back and I'm so going to say we had 2 full time devops engineers.
01:06:58.10
Rick
No I haven't gotten that one before. Okay.
01:07:13.58
tylerking
Who just weren't working on the product they were working on infrastructure and shit like that we they should have been working on the product I don't I I Really don't know how to explain I Do know how to explain my thinking and it's that our saw a server used to crash all the time but we went like the last. Yeah, exactly.
01:07:25.10
Rick
But at some point that got fixed.
01:07:30.43
tylerking
Um, that was just I was too slow to react to that one? um I think dramatically improved and simplified money management switching away from Bank Of America to mercury ah can't say enough good things about mercury. Um.
01:07:41.56
Rick
Holy Cow I've already switched we we cover this in a couple podcasts I'm in the middle of switching they make chases making it so painful to to switch just like not letting me transfer money like they like it's just it's it's anyway.
01:07:50.85
tylerking
What are they doing I didn't even talk to bank of America I just went into mercury I added the AcH info for my other account I I just drained bank of America and then we called them up and we're like hey close the account.
01:07:59.20
Rick
Ah I'm excited.
01:08:06.40
Rick
Ah, it's awesome. That's awesome now. Mercury's amazing.
01:08:10.20
tylerking
Um, think? yeah Mercury is great ah stay thinking about I switched from thinking about revenue growth to user growth which again talked about in detail in the podcast but the big unlock there is revenue growth when you have multiple price points especially when you're. Increasing price on old customers. It can lie to you. User growth is the long term robust metric of if you're not growing the number of customers you have. Maybe you can get expansion revenue for a while. Maybe you can increase acv or whatever. But that's that's going to hit a limit at some point you have to be increasing the number of customers. So.
01:08:46.30
Rick
Yep.
01:08:47.50
tylerking
Simplified things a lot for me. Um, and we are almost fully switched over to paddle for billing which no, but so if you have a crystal ball and I could be like no one would ever come and get on my case about sales tax.
01:08:51.29
Rick
Do you regret that decision.
01:09:05.88
tylerking
Then? Yes I a hundred percent regret it like I don't but it's there are so many frustrating things about having a merchant of record where it's like we want to do something and because technically paddle is the supplier of the service and they're licensing it from us they have like we just can't do a lot of the stuff we could have done before like you can't be like. Just want to build this person on a different frequency. You just can't anyway. But I don't want some state government to come to me 5 years from now and be like hey you owe us $700000 in tax sales tax. I just I can't risk that um and I don't know any other way to comply with this other than to go with paddle so I think from a risk mitigation standpoint who knows what the risk was but given that the company is stable and mature I'd prefer to be conservative and so i. Still think it was the right decision even though it was a very painful one now if you said would I advise someone else start with paddle I I what I mean what do you think the odds are that any of the sales tax stuff ever gets enforced. Yeah, so if that's the case then 100% i.
01:10:03.43
Rick
That's good.
01:10:14.20
Rick
Hi ever hi.
01:10:20.23
tylerking
Taxes stripes tax. Ah solution is just not a solution unless you're really really big, big enough to like have an accounting department that's filing quarterly taxes in every single state so they bought.
01:10:32.20
Rick
Um, it don't they integrate with a third party that does a pretty good job.
01:10:38.47
tylerking
Tax Jar I think it is um but you can't they can't really do this for you So they are good at collecting the right amount of sales tax but to remit it which is to pay it to the government you you the company have to do that because the money came to you. It didn't go to Stripe Stripe can't pay your taxes for you.
01:10:46.94
Rick
Oh.
01:10:58.10
tylerking
But with paddle the money goes to Paddle Paddle pays the taxes and then they give you what's left So that's that's fundamentally why Paddle Handles sales tax and Stripe doesn't.
01:11:04.51
Rick
I got it? Interesting yeah I can't remember the name of the we we had 1 at people keep that we used the integrated with stripe but I can't remember what it was.
01:11:12.58
tylerking
Um, got you? Um, yeah, maybe there's anyway, um, enough about paddle but very painful took so long. There's a lot in almost every way our billing system got worse. Um, for our customer from a customer experience. Standpoint tons of bugs. Lots of bad stuff about it. But at the end of the day I don't really see any other option. Um I code it a whole lot again. I've been talking about that. But um I am going to say one of my goals for next year is not just to continue coding because that's like to wishy wash this is still going to be a vague goal but specifically to not let other stuff get like take over my free time such that I can't code like I want to be very I want to say no to a lot of stuff and I want to be very protective of my time. Really not that dissimilar from your personal goal I think um and then my final note here on on updates I feel like this podcast had 2 main themes for the year that I wanted to call out one which I think mostly applies to what you're doing and that is you can't optimize nothing.
01:12:01.18
Rick
And.
01:12:21.00
tylerking
Um, just the idea of there's a lot of sitting around and talking and thinking and planning and then if you go back to the beginning and just do something even if it's the wrong thing that's probably better and then I think the one that applies to me is like going back to the basics or as it's been phrased like what would a third grader. Do.
01:12:30.97
Rick
M.
01:12:39.68
tylerking
I had overcomplicated so many things about lesseningerm in terms of my the financial modeling the banking product strategy again I'm just going back to like I don't know where we we make a crm what would make the crm better. Um, and if you'd asked me a year ago how I think about product strategy it would have been like a 30 minute answer um so I think just simplifying things and ah taking advantage of the fact that we're a small business has been one of the big themes for me this year
01:13:07.91
Rick
Um, that's awesome. Yeah, that was a big unlock The ah you can't optimize that thing I remember when I got there I was like okay this is they just took so many options off the table of of what to, But what we could do so.
01:13:23.39
tylerking
Yeah I Love the fact that this this deep into the game you and I are both still kind of making rookie mistakes and learning from it. Ah, it really keeps things interesting up.
01:13:23.92
Rick
Super helpful.
01:13:36.61
Rick
Um, oh tell me about your next year like this year's or 2024 professional themes and goals.
01:13:41.45
tylerking
Yeah, okay, so I'm going to some of this I already referenced but I'll kind of breeze through it all. Um, so the back to the basics theme is is the big one again I'm not We're going to continue doing growth work. We have a marketer. We have a salesperson like it's not like we're not going to do growth stuff but I'm not going to shift the strategy. Based on growth numbers and let's say I mean maybe if if growth if if we started losing a ton of revenue or something maybe but um, as long as things remain steady I'm just not thinking about I'm not looking at we did this and our growth didn't go up. We got to change the plan the plan is just try and make the product better keep doing what we're doing and again I talked about kind of focusing on customer perception or you could call it customer delight. Um I'm thinking of it something along the lines of at the end of the year if you found a typical customer at the end of 2024 found a typical customer of lessening serum and said ask them the question his lessening serum gotten better. This year I think if you ask that right now to our customers. They'd be like yeah I mean I got some email updates about some things that have changed I haven't really looked into them I'm like I'm happy with the product. Um, it seems like they're working on stuff. That's what they would say right now the end of 2024 what I want him to say is like. Oh my god like it seems like they ship something every single week like it's like a different product now. That's what I want them to say in a good way. Obviously I don't change stuff just to change it. Um, yeah so I yeah well.
01:15:00.89
Rick
That would be cool. Yeah yeah, that would be cool. That's that's inspiring I imagine it would be for your team.
01:15:12.35
tylerking
Yeah I hope so that so that's the main thing I'm in this video that I'm preparing for them that I'm this presentation I'm sending out. That's the main in inspiring is what I'm going for so I hope it works. Um I've got like specifics on what I want to ship. Um I guess very quick I'm just going to say them out loud so that I can next year compare if we actually did them. But we're going to have 3 main pillars to the products to to the product work on 1 is the the biggest missing part of the car so to speak is that you cannot send email from the cerm. Also you can't even. Risk like log emails that you receive automatically so email in general is a thing that people just consider table stakes for serums we really got caught flat foototed on this by the end of the year I want to be able to automatically log and send emails from the serm. Um not like bulk email marketing stuff. But ah. You know, be able to send like individual emails if that makes sense. Um the other one. Yeah, that's table stakes. There's other things too that might come after that like in 2025 it might be a kanban view for the pipeline report or a mobile app I think those are the 3 big ones that I'm just like every serum has.
01:16:04.75
Rick
Be great. That's stable snakes.
01:16:21.95
tylerking
These three things and we don't but we're going to start with just email the second pillar is forms you and I have talked about this a bunch I know I wish it had already happened but this is that viral loop thing that I hoped had would happen in 2023 but didn't um, but pretty confident will happen in 2024. It's both a future our customers really want but it also has this potential to like create the viral loop which we've talked about a lot and then the third one is the the building cup holders which is to say there's no strategy at all. There's no big picture. It's just what is the highest. Ah, impact to effort ratio project on the list. Um, it doesn't yeah I mean we we're still going to apply our own personal taste to it. We're not going to build something. We don't believe in but like we have a list of like 100 things that each one would take you know two weeks to a month to build and like customers are just dying for it and we're like. Isn't really going to like meaningfully change what the product can do doesn't matter the goal is to ship 2 of those per quarter at least I said 2 to two weeks to a month everything always takes longer than you think but shipping 2 of those kind of nice cup holder type improvements. Alongside the email and the forms things next year
01:17:36.22
Rick
A question on some of these and like small these these are not they're they're not small like they're meaningful media like I think you haven written doneier's medium but like um when you build these things are you building like a library of functionality that you can repurpose for other things or is this sort of.
01:17:42.89
tylerking
Um, yeah.
01:17:53.30
tylerking
It It depends on the feature. So for example, one of the ones I'm excited about is Wzzy wig What you see is what you get like note editing right now if you're leaving a note on a context. It's just plain text being able to bold italic size color bullet list stuff like that. That's one of them if we build that we're also going to say well.
01:17:53.85
Rick
1 to 1 in terms of a feature.
01:18:13.27
tylerking
All of our rich text feed all all of our text fields like event descriptions and task descriptions will have that and when we send emails we're of course going to need a wizzywi editor for the formatting the email. So some of them will have that some of them though are just like Nope This is just some random little thing that people would be happy about.
01:18:20.22
Rick
Yeah, it's cool. That's a good example. Cool.
01:18:31.19
tylerking
Um, but 1 of my one of the things I'm really ah the lenses I'm looking through here I realize we're running on time. So um, I'll try to go quick here but features that people don't have to go into the settings and enable in order to use. Um. That's one of the like if I look back over the last six years 1 of the reasons the features haven't had big big impact is like no one knows about him so something like a wyzzyw note. It's like well if you're entering a note you'll notice that you can format it compared to a lot of our things which like oh a new feature for a custom field. It's like we have to go edit you have to go create a new custom field before you'll even know that that's there. Um. That's one of the things that I'm trying to keep in mind. Um and then I'll go real quick through this basically just stability I think the team's in a really great place I think it's it's it's kind of like how customer service has always been customer service at lessing serum's always been great. So there's not like a goal to set aside from just like keep doing it. Um.
01:19:04.62
Rick
Cool. That's that's awesome.
01:19:22.92
tylerking
I Think we're in a really good place. Company team culture all that just keep it going and try not to take on a bunch of new responsibilities so that I personally have individual contributor time to code. Um and then oh yeah, and then I wrote basically a duplicate of that same thing I want to be able to code. Yep.
01:19:41.98
Rick
Um, well you got a lot I feel like you have a lot of um, leadership management work that you're setting yourself up for with the back to the basics theme.
01:19:42.21
tylerking
That's my goals.
01:19:47.15
tylerking
Um, um.
01:19:58.50
Rick
Um, and particularly the one ah focusing on customer delight and not getting distracted by like short-term growth. Ah because that's easy to like go ah, just wish we could make ah at 10 more users per day you know? um so I feel like that's going to require you to like beat a drum and.
01:20:10.55
tylerking
Ah, yeah.
01:20:17.27
Rick
And and and say it over and over again, be a broken record every day every week every month of the year there's not much else. You can do.
01:20:24.40
tylerking
I totally agree I need to yeah I need to remember I I know this about everything everything you have to keep repeating but I agree this is one in particular and ah so the the video I'm recording right now I'm going to send out that will be I've already cats on the roof to this pretty hard I've already like for months been telling people this is coming. This will be the official announcement this these are our marching orders for 2024 and I I can't forget I can't just be like well everyone knows that let's let's go so keep keep reminding me about that.
01:20:47.37
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got it. That's going to be key I think well anyway I'm excited about like honestly like focusing on customer delight is most most businesses do not have the luxury of just purely focusing on that you've. Spent this year setting up a year of like hey don't worry about anything else unless something happens outside of our control like we're going to basically just put our customers first for an entire year and see what happens. It's pretty cool I hope your people realize how.
01:21:14.76
tylerking
Yeah I'm I'm I'm really really excited about it I Just hope it works I want this sorry good. Oh I was just gonna say I I really want it to work. Not just because I want to get growth figured out like obviously I do but I want it to work because if it works that means I can spend the next.
01:21:23.13
Rick
Ah, sorry, go ahead.
01:21:33.70
tylerking
30 years focusing on customer delight I don't want this to be well we did it for a year and now we got to go figure something else out. Yeah.
01:21:40.40
Rick
Well, you know that's it's going to be. You know this thing but you know that this is what works like this leads to some growth. It'll it'll cause you to like have to go deal with other things. But then you'll come back to this and and it's it's ah ah, go up and down. Um.
01:21:50.71
tylerking
Um, yeah.
01:21:56.00
Rick
But 1 thing i' was going to say was that I hope that your employees appreciate how unique it is to be able to do this um in a small environment, a small business environment. It's so rare that a 20 person company can um, have this sort of customer focus without external without. Ah. Downward pressure from superiors and without external pressures of survival. Um, anyway, it's pretty cool.
01:22:18.85
tylerking
Yeah, that. Thanks for saying that I I'm going to have to put some thought and I think people kind of like probably subconsciously appreciate that. But sometimes you have to say sometimes you have to brag right? It's the same way as selling a product to customers like if you're not willing to. Say good things about your product. You're not going to sell it. Um, you got to sell the job to the employees and that that's something I'm not sure I've said explicitly. So I'm going to put some thought into that cool. Thank you? Um I know you would like to get going in about 5 minutes you want to talk about biggest worry. Ah, before we go. Oh yeah, you did.
01:22:42.35
Rick
Cool.
01:22:51.53
Rick
Ah, you told I already talked about mine. It's that I won't ah control my you know personal health ah ah situation and I'm going to do better about that. It's like the minute I wrote this down was like that actually is my worry.
01:23:04.97
tylerking
Um, yeah.
01:23:05.23
Rick
And it's a silly worry because I can literally wake up early tomorrow and go fix this. So maybe I'll do it. Maybe I'll wait till tomorrow the next day. But.
01:23:14.88
tylerking
Ah, yeah, um, cool I think for mine I mean you probably got the impression I'm mostly not super worried about stuff. But so that the whole theory of customer delight leads to growth what that basically looks like that if that's true. What that means is the quality of the product.
01:23:22.15
Rick
Um.
01:23:33.43
tylerking
Consumers customers are somewhat rational. They evaluate products and they pick the best 1 and we used to be the best 1 for more people and now our competition has kind of surpassed us and we're still the best 1 for some people are still growing somewhat but not as many and so the theory is like we need to close the gap between us and the competition and hopefully even. Then create a gap in the other direction where we're better. Ah, but can we like when I say the competition I mean hubspot I mean pipe drive I mean companies with thousands of employees billions of dollars at their disposal can our team of 8 developers actually outship them. And I think the answer is yes because we're not going after the whole market we're going after a specific type of person. But my biggest worry is that it's like we could do everything right? and we're still not ever able to reach feature parody we're we're not able to build the dodge dart. Basically.
01:24:25.18
Rick
Yeah, well I mean I think we've talked about it already but like do you feel like you have done everything you can to address this worry.
01:24:34.33
tylerking
Yes, and so a year ago my biggest worry was something like I don't know how to grow I don't know how to do marketing and that's a terrible one because I know I'm bad at it. This is this is my wheelhouse like if I'm going to fail if the reason we fail is because we don't do product right. I guess I just it wasn't meant to be I think I can live with that like I would suck obviously but that's that's a challenge that gets me excited I'm like all right, it's gonna be hard. Let's go. Do it whereas when I hear the marketing challenge I'm just like are maybe I should go work at Google you know.
01:24:55.72
Rick
Um.
01:25:07.68
Rick
Ah.
01:25:11.37
tylerking
Um, so I'm very excited about it. But that that's the big thing that could a year from now if I'm like damn 2024 sucked it's going to be because of that I think.
01:25:18.76
Rick
Yeah, not well's yeah I mean that's that's the right way to think about a worry 20 Why would my year suck. It's because this didn't happen. Yeah, my own. Yeah, it's exactly right like I if I if I am sitting here in this chair a year from now and I'm saying I didn't work out at all.
01:25:28.68
tylerking
Um, yeah, and I think yours does that too.
01:25:38.46
Rick
I've worked out for six months like blah blah blah blah like my my year is a failure. Um cool. Um I didn't have it like the next one is what do you want to learn I honestly like I don't I am not very thirsty for for knowledge right now I just want to get back to the like my basic routines.
01:25:41.68
tylerking
Ah, yeah.
01:25:56.82
Rick
And I'm sure that as soon as I start reading again and writing I'll get inspired by something but I couldn't think of anything that I'm like dying to learn.
01:26:03.50
tylerking
Yeah I think that's great I Think that's where I was last year too. Um, sometimes you just got to go implement the things you already like like use the skills you already have. Um, so yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um, for me, it's.
01:26:13.90
Rick
No.
01:26:19.85
tylerking
I know how to code I think I'm a decent software engineer but I kind of do things my way and I'm I do it the way it was done in 2010 I can operate I've actually been pretty productive I've gotten some good stuff done. But I'm kind of like avoiding certain areas of the code because I'm like oh that's typescript I don't know that very well or. Would have to write a unit test for this and I don't really know how to write a unit test. My hope is by the end of the year I don't have any blind spots like I can operate just like all the other developers. Um I still may choose to only do certain types of things that I'm good at just like I do with the whole team. Every developer were like let's figure out what you're best at and only have you do that. But um. I want to not be like feel like I can't do certain things.
01:27:02.60
Rick
That's cool now like it.
01:27:03.93
tylerking
Cool all right? Well end of 2023 started 2024 we got another year coming Rick.
01:27:10.46
Rick
Here here. He comes I'm looking forward to it and yeah I'm glad we do this podcast. This is like a really good force. It's always a good forcing function for me to reflect I I Really appreciate it.
01:27:19.35
tylerking
Yeah, agreed I wouldn't do this stuff if not I wouldn't think about this stuff if not for the podcast. So ah, likewise are we out. We're canceling the next podcast So we'll be a month before people hear from us is all right.
01:27:31.95
Rick
I Believe so do you want to? do you want to reschedule that one do we decide on that.
01:27:35.17
tylerking
Okay, um I don't know we'll talk offline but listener if you don't hear from us for a month that's planned Ok all.
01:27:44.91
Rick
All right? and if you'd like to in the meantime visit past episodes visit start to last dot com.
01:27:50.82
tylerking
All right see ya.