Beyond The Job Title | Underrepresented Career Stories

Episode Summary

Join us in this insightful podcast episode as we sit down with the remarkable Jen Allen-Knuth, aka DemandJen, as we explore the essence of Jen's mission and the art of crafting a career path that's marked by authenticity, longevity, and growth.

  • (00:00) - Intro
  • (02:20) - Who is Jen and What Is Her Mission?
  • (03:52) - The Power Of Having Mentors That Care About Your Growth
  • (06:15) - Advocating for Yourself And Unleashing Your Hidden Talents
  • (08:21) - Conquering Imposter Syndrome
  • (10:22) - Crafting Your Career Path For Longevity and Growth
  • (15:49) - Do The Job Before It’s Official
  • (16:42) - Leaving a Lasting Impression With an Impactful Presence
  • (18:41) - Leaning Into The Fear Of Public Speaking
  • (22:22) - Losing In Sales And Lessons Learned From It
  • (25:55) - Stepping into Change | Jen's Stepmom Perspective
  • (30:08) - The Cost Of Inaction
  • (33:38) - Rapid-Fire Closing
  • (40:33) - Outro

Jen’s Bio

Jen Allen-Knuth, aka DemandJen, is a force to be reckoned with in the world of sales, community growth, and strategic partnerships. She's currently making waves as the Head of Community Growth at Lavender, the go-to AI email assistant that helps you craft emails that stand out from the crowd. Jen's previous journey includes a stellar tenure as the Chief Evangelist at Challenger, during which she masterminded demand creation and spearheaded the "Winning the Challenger Sale" series. Her extensive career spans strategic advisory roles, sales leadership, keynote speaker, and a rich history of propelling teams to exceed expectations. 

Referenced
Where to find Jen
Where to find Cesar
About The Podcast

Join Cesar Romero, as he interviews entrepreneurs, creators, and ambitious professionals from various industries and explores their journeys, struggles, and triumphs. We go beyond the surface-level titles and delve into the passions, hobbies, and experiences that have shaped their lives and careers.

Creators & Guests

Host
Cesar Romero
Helping startups and SMBs build strong customer relationships that drive product adoption, reduce churn, and increase revenue | Community-Driven | Podcast Host
Guest
Jen Allen-Knuth
Community Growth @ Lavender | aka DemandJen | SKO & Event Speaker | Co-Host, Jen vs. Will

What is Beyond The Job Title | Underrepresented Career Stories?

The lack of diversity in tech can lead to imposter syndrome, bias, and a sense of isolation that hinders your growth and ambition.

Welcome to 'Beyond The Job Title Podcast,' where we shine a spotlight on the journeys of underrepresented tech professionals and allies within the SaaS industry.

Join us as we delve into the personal development and career insights that have fueled their success.

Discover the stories of trailblazing underrepresented SaaS founders, executives, and professionals who have broken barriers and achieved remarkable milestones.

Whether you're seeking inspiration, mentorship, or actionable strategies to advance your career, our podcast is your go-to resource.

Tune in to gain valuable insights, build your network, and navigate your tech career journey with confidence.

Subscribe now and take the next step toward your own success in the world of tech.

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Jen Allen-Knuth | BJT14
[00:00:00] Jen: when I created the role of chief evangelist at challenger. I did it for about seven months before I asked for the job, because I wanted to show, Hey, you don't have to take a leap of faith.
[00:00:09] Jen: I can show you results for me doing it as a side of the desk thing. Imagine what it looks like if I do it full time, but I also wanted to make sure I even enjoyed doing something like that. So that's one key tenant is do the job you're asking for before you do it. I think also to me, people that I've worked with people who demonstrate that of grit, I think is a really admirable thing.
[00:00:29] Cesar: Hey friends, this is your host Cesar Romero. And you're listening to beyond the job title podcast, the show that explores the human experiences to shape our professional and personal lives. My guest. This episode is the remarkable Jan Allen candidate also known as the man chain. She is one of my top. Women [00:01:00] to follow in sales and in leadership. So if you're not following Jane, I don't know what you're doing with your life. Go ahead. Follow her, especially if you want to be a better leader, a better communicator. And overall. A better salesperson. And in this episode, We.
[00:01:20] Cesar: Explore the essence of chance mission. And the art of crafting a career path. That is marked by authenticity. Longevity. And girls. We talk about. Topics like concrete imposter syndrome. advocating for yourself. Doing the job before it's official. Leaving a lasting impression with an impactful persons. And so much more. So, if you are someone that is interested in. Authenticity longevity. And overall growth in your career. Then this episode is for you. And please don't forget to subscribe so that you don't [00:02:00] miss out on any future episodes. Thank you so much for joining and here's my conversation with jen
[00:02:06] Cesar: Thanks so much for joining the show. Welcome. And Jen, I went on a bit, a bit of a little bit of a research rabbit hole content, and I just watching some of the interviews and some of the posts that you made on LinkedIn.
[00:02:20] Cesar: And one of the first questions that came to mind was because you're a big on. Storytelling and telling your story, embracing the vulnerability and all the emotions that come with that. And I wanted to ask you, right, if someone were to ask you, who is Jan and what mission are you on and what, what mission are you on?
[00:02:46] Cesar: What story would you tell them?
[00:02:47] Jen: That's a good question. And weirdly, I don't think anyone's ever asked me about as many of these as I've done. Um, I think the way I would want someone to describe me is someone who's highly empathetic, [00:03:00] someone who is Highly true to who I am, who genuinely wants to help other people avoid some of the like mental highs and lows of selling that I experienced as well as the performance highs and lows.
[00:03:13] Jen: Like I would never want me to want someone to say that Jen is an expert and you should listen to her because she's a sales expert. I go out of my way to make sure people don't describe me as that. Cause I actually just don't think. Something that changes as rapidly as sales is something we can even be an expert in because tomorrow it's different than it was today.
[00:03:30] Jen: Um, but if I look back on my career and, and the big moments that shaped me, a big part of that were people who did good by me and taught me and coached me in some of my low moments. And I just like the idea of being like that for people. I don't even know really. And that's why I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn because that gives you scale that you couldn't have.
[00:03:51] Jen: Um, in person.
[00:03:52] Cesar: I love that. And you know, you, you mentioned challenging moments. Uh, what's the moment that Uh, you share the most or that stands out [00:04:00] the most, uh, and perhaps, um, a mentor, right? That, that, that helped you navigate
[00:04:04] Jen: that. Yeah, there's a, there's a woman. Um, so I talk a lot about my first manager, but there was a woman who was actually a customer of mine.
[00:04:10] Jen: So back when I was at CEB, I was selling, um, a, basically an annual research subscription to CMOs. And there was a woman named Sheila who worked at GE capital back at the time that I was selling. And. I remember I went into a meeting with her. And I was so worried because it was G. E. I was massively intimidated to be there.
[00:04:30] Jen: I'm still very young in my career talking to a CMO. And I remember showing up and putting on what felt like very much of an act, right? I was speaking the way I thought someone who worked at G. E. would speak. And I was trying to use all my big fancy words. And I was trying to explain to her the research theme for that year.
[00:04:46] Jen: And she stopped me. And she said, Jen, what is your opinion on this? And I completely froze because I realized I didn't have an opinion on it. I was just regurgitating the things that I thought I was [00:05:00] supposed to say to sound smart. And she did it to make me uncomfortable, which might sound cruel, but it was, it was truly one of those big memorable moments in my career because she said, Jen.
[00:05:10] Jen: You're it's not that it's a bad conversation. I'm learning something, but I desire to connect with you. And I don't feel like you, there is a human behind what you're saying. I feel like you are a walking piece of research. So she's like, I would encourage you if you want to be memorable, you've got to bring more of your own take on it.
[00:05:27] Jen: You've got to be not afraid to be yourself. And that was probably. Gosh, 2007, 2006, and it just really stood out to me because I was so intimidated to talk to executives. And I just felt like I didn't belong to be there. And she gave me a lot of confidence to tell me like, not only do you belong to be here, but you have a right to have a point of view on this because you talk to a lot of executives in that role.
[00:05:50] Jen: So it really was a memorable moment for me.
[00:05:53] Cesar: I love that. Right. And just having the right person, the right mentor can make a big impact. You know, and you're, you're big on, [00:06:00] on mentorship, paying it forward. Um, is there... a particular mentee or a particular opportunity that, uh, where you saw the change in the person that, that perhaps you were mentoring or perhaps paying forward, you know, what you learned from, from Sheila.
[00:06:15] Jen: Yeah. So one of my old managers Left our company and went to work at a new organization, um, gosh, back in 2021. And he was really, really phenomenal. His name was Kevin. He was a great teacher to me in sales. And I had really high highs and low lows working for Kevin. And Kevin was always just like, you know, the person that would give me the hard news and just, you know, get me, keep me focused.
[00:06:40] Jen: And, um, he called me last year and he said, I've got a girl on my team who reminds me so much of you. And she's. She's incredible. I know that sounds super arrogant. I'm like, it's coming out of my mouth. I'm like, that was disgusting. No, but she's, she's really talented, but she doesn't recognize her own worth.
[00:06:54] Jen: Would you be up to talking to her? And so I said, you know, absolutely. Because that, like that, that stuff hits my heart. [00:07:00] So I got on the phone with her and started talking to her right off the bat. She was. Phenomenal. Just like a strong force of presence. She was really smart. She was a great listener, like all of these wonderful things, but she was doubting herself.
[00:07:11] Jen: And she said, I struggled to speak up in meetings because I questioned in my head, if it's worth talking, if, if what I have to say is worth listening to. And she said, I feel like I could be doing more with my career, but I don't know how to advocate for myself. And so we had a series of conversations and I just pushed her to get out of her comfort zone and said, sell, like you're in a phenomenal salesperson, sell me on you, sell me on what makes you amazing.
[00:07:37] Jen: Sell me on what you want to be doing, not like what you feel like you have to be doing because you don't deserve the thing that you want. And I worked with her just, you know, really informally across a series of a few conversations. We ended up putting together a job description for her and she got the job.
[00:07:52] Jen: And I think it really had nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with just holding up a mirror to her and just showing her like, you're [00:08:00] incredible and you don't see it. Everybody else does your boss does you don't. And I think a lot of times in sales, we just, we need it. Cause it's so easy to get stuck in these really low lows.
[00:08:10] Cesar: Well, those are the best mentors, right? The mentors that hold a mirror. And show you what you're capable of.
[00:08:18] Jen: Yeah, I love that. That's exactly right. Yeah,
[00:08:21] Cesar: um, Why do you think that that happens a lot? You know, the whole imposter syndrome, feeling like you don't belong in the room, feeling like you're, you're not enough, especially for women.
[00:08:30] Cesar: You know, I, I have a daughter and I want her not to feel those things, right? But it seems like it's almost impossible to, to avoid them, right? So I was just curious about your perspective on Why that happens so much.
[00:08:43] Jen: Yeah. I think it's, I think traditionally sales has been viewed as this career. That's for like the really aggressive go getters and you have to kick down doors and not take no for an answer, which feels like a very masculine motion.
[00:08:56] Jen: Right. So I think as women. One of two things [00:09:00] happen, either we crawl into our shells because we think, Hey, we can never be that. Or we try to mirror that and say, well, if that's what makes the guys so successful, I'm going to go out and do that too. Either way, it's a loss, right? And I certainly have been in meetings.
[00:09:14] Jen: There was a meeting. I will never forget that I went to with a new AE on the team and it was two exact two male executives. And we walked into the room and then they directed every question towards the guy and the guy to his credit was like, I'm two weeks in, I don't, I don't know anything. I'm here to shadow Jen, but it was like, they wouldn't even make eye contact with me.
[00:09:36] Jen: And so every woman I speak to, or I have spoken to about this has at least one of those moments where you are made to feel small and whether or not they realize they're doing it is really irrelevant. But I think you add up a number of those moments and then you start to believe it. Right. And so part of it for me was I was lucky early on to be surrounded by women leaders, like all of my bosses, my first four years were [00:10:00] women and they were really strong and I learned that you don't have to be a man to be strong.
[00:10:04] Jen: You can stay true to who you are and just own it. If I didn't have that, I bet I would have really struggled with finding my voice and finding my identity, which is why I have conversations like this, because I think it's really important.
[00:10:16] Cesar: Yeah, it's extremely important. And one of the questions that I have for you, because you were 14 years, right?
[00:10:22] Cesar: At what, what's now CEP and in a sales role, right? And I just was going to ask, you know, what was the. What kept you there for, for long, right? What did the longevity of, cause 14 years somewhere isn't heard of these days, right? It's like, um, you know, people switch, uh, jobs every year, two years. And there's this whole notion now that careers are nonlinear.
[00:10:47] Cesar: Right. Um, and I was curious about, you know, if you. Was there a fork in the road moment where you felt, you know, perhaps sales is not for me. I'm going to try something different. Um, yeah, you know, just tell me more about that moment.
[00:10:58] Jen: Yeah. I mean like every January when your [00:11:00] goal reset down to zero, it's like, what am I doing?
[00:11:03] Jen: this again? No, but there, there were three things that kept me there because I think about this a lot. So one was the people I was surrounded by. I always knew how fortunate I was. To work with the level of talent, like that is one thing where I look back and I'm like, man, I am so lucky that I landed at CED because the caliber of talent there was phenomenal.
[00:11:22] Jen: So I was always just, I always felt like I had more to learn. So that was one. Um, two was. Every year it was interesting because of the nature of what we sold, we were selling research. So every year there would be a new topic that was like, here's the new, most pressing challenges for CMOs or CSOs. And just the intellectual curiosity of me.
[00:11:40] Jen: I loved that. It wasn't like I was selling the same widget for 14 years in a row. I think I would have struggled with that, but it was like every year there was something new. So that kept kept it. Um, and then three was I just had a lot of. Ability to move and try different things. So if you look at my resume, it's like once every two years, [00:12:00] I'm generally making some sort of career switch within the same organization.
[00:12:04] Jen: So I started an account management, just pure renewal, then went to renewal plus upsell cross sell, then managed a team for a short amount of time, then did pure new logo hunting, then did big game hunting. And so it was, I just found like, there were always ways that I could find something new. In the same organization, which I think made it so that when I would evaluate other opportunities, which from time to time I did, I just knew like I'd built this brand.
[00:12:30] Jen: I had built this community of people that I learned from and trusted and great managers. That's all a risk that I would take if I left the business. So I think those are the three core things that kept me there for so long.
[00:12:40] Cesar: I love that. And when you were switching, right, going from one position to the other one, was that already laid out for you or did you have to come up with like, Hey, here's what I think I want to go next and have a plan and pitch it.
[00:12:53] Cesar: Yeah, I'm just curious about that.
[00:12:56] Jen: It was never laid out for me. And this is probably the thing that I. [00:13:00] Wish more of us would do is ask for the thing that you want. Don't wait for it to be handed to you. I don't think there was a single move I made that a manager was like, you should do this. Um, I remember when I moved from account management to pure new logo hunting, I was sitting at, um, a customer's office and it was when I was doing cross sell upsell and account management.
[00:13:20] Jen: And I was looking at my day and I was like, I'm very excited for these two meetings, these four meetings. I'm not excited about it all. And it was the two meetings where the new logo meetings that I was excited about. So in that moment, I just decided, I said, I don't want to do a job that I dread. I'm going to do something that scares the hell out of me and go to new logo where you have no guarantee that you ever leave zero.
[00:13:41] Jen: And so it was just, it was, there's just like little tiny moments along the way that I just decided to jump on. Um, and I don't regret any of them. At all, which is a good feeling.
[00:13:51] Cesar: That's always a good feeling. And so where, where does this come from? Because most people, most people wait until something opens up or until something [00:14:00] lands on their desk, you know, for lack of a better term.
[00:14:02] Cesar: And where, where do you think this, this initiative, this track comes from?
[00:14:06] Jen: I think it's just, that's a good question. I wonder if I just get bored and I hate being bored. It is a little bit too. I also just like a challenge, right? Like I always like to push myself because I'm still someone, even as much as I speak publicly, I get terrified to.
[00:14:23] Jen: Go on stage and present. And I, in a way, I hate that feeling in a way. I kind of love that feeling. And that's always been true in my career moves is I want to, I'm scared of doing something, but I know if I do it, that feeling of, I didn't think I could do it. And I can is so much more rewarding than just, okay, I'll do another year of the same thing.
[00:14:41] Jen: I knew I was already pretty decent.
[00:14:43] Cesar: I love that. Uh, Yeah, I that's something that I want to teach my daughter, or at least try to embody it. Like, hey, you know, you don't have to wait for me or for anybody else to lay out a plan for you. You can come up with your own and ask for feedback, right? Like, hey, what do you think about this?
[00:14:58] Cesar: Does this sound reasonable, even, even if [00:15:00] it doesn't, even if
[00:15:01] Jen: it's, and that's a great point. Like, even if it doesn't, you've now set your vision, right? And there were times when I wanted something and I didn't get it, but because I had stated clearly, this is what I'd like to do. I got really good feedback in return saying, you're not ready.
[00:15:17] Jen: And here's what you need to do to get ready. You can't get that if you wait until you feel like you deserve something and then find out that you don't. And that's where I think people turn and burn and then say, well, screw it, I'm going to go to a different company. Yeah.
[00:15:29] Cesar: Um, no, I'm, I'm curious about. You know, before doing that, uh, did you work on their relationship, like building the trust, building it up until it gets to a point where you can make the ask or where there are instances where it was like, call, call email, right?
[00:15:46] Cesar: Like out of the blue, it's like, Hey, you know, I think, uh, I want to go here next.
[00:15:49] Jen: I, so something that's been very, there's two things that have been very key to me throughout my career. And I'm not saying everybody should do this. This is just what worked for me. One was always doing the job I [00:16:00] wanted before I had the job, right?
[00:16:01] Jen: Like it's kind of, it sounds like, you know, when I went to school, I walked through 12 inches of snow, but it was just as much for me to know the thing that I'm going to put my neck out on the line and ask for, do I even enjoy doing it? So like when I created the role of chief evangelist at challenger. I did it for about seven months before I asked for the job, because I wanted to show, Hey, you don't have to take a leap of faith.
[00:16:22] Jen: I can show you results for me doing it as a side of the desk thing. Imagine what it looks like if I do it full time, but I also wanted to make sure I even enjoyed doing something like that. So that's one key tenant is do the job you're asking for before you do it. I think also to me, people that I've worked with people who demonstrate that of grit, I think is a really admirable thing.
[00:16:42] Jen: Um, and then two Is, um, the relationships that you build internally, I think matter more than anything. And so what I mean by that is I was really always very big on helping others, whether or not it benefited me. And I learned that from others that I respected [00:17:00] and worked for. And so whether that was doing like one off training sessions, whether that is, you know, being a mentor to someone, whether that's like offering to help someone with their email or their, you know, pitch deck or whatever the case may be.
[00:17:11] Jen: I just always wanted it to be that if I left a room, people were like, she was really helpful because I think when you create that sort of brand for yourself, people in turn want to help you. They want to advocate for you. I think the opposite of that is just always like, what can I get? What attention can I collect for this?
[00:17:28] Jen: I think we all have experiences with people like that. It's just a really icky thing that you don't really root for those people. So I think you have to be someone worth rooting for.
[00:17:36] Cesar: Yeah. You're definitely someone worth rooting for. You are too.
[00:17:40] Cesar: It's a, it's a law of reciprocity, right? I think, uh, Robert Cialdini wrote a book about it. Um, and yeah, if you do something for someone and it's kind of weird, right? Because you, you do it, but you're not really expecting something in return. You just do it because you're a good human being and you want to see people win.
[00:17:57] Cesar: Um, But yeah, it's, it's important to, to keep that in [00:18:00] mind, right? As you move along your, your career, it's like, how can I be helpful? And what you mentioned too, it's like when you leave the room, people saying, you know, she was the most helpful. I think that's a, that's a good goal to have.
[00:18:11] Jen: Yeah. And look, I'm sure I left rooms and people were like, she's annoying.
[00:18:14] Jen: That's okay. You can't win them all. But I mean, it's just, you're, I think you set an intent, right? Of how do you want to be. Seen by others. And as long as you're true to yourself and what you stand for, and you're not working for free, like I'm definitely not advocating that don't just like grind yourself to the bone in the hopes that something happens.
[00:18:30] Jen: I think you've got to pair these things together, but just in general, I think we're really taken off guard these days when someone does something without the expectation of return. And so it's, it's a memorable moment that's within all of our control.
[00:18:41] Cesar: Yeah. Now you, you mentioned speaking, right. And that you get nervous and I get nervous all the time.
[00:18:48] Cesar: You know, it's like a performance anxiety. Um, and I'm curious, at what point did speaking become a thing for you? Like, did you always, um, had that in you? Uh, or was there a moment where you realized, you know what, speaking is [00:19:00] important to me? That's how I can add value and express my, you know, my, my, um, my thinking, um, because, you know, probably speaking, it's like the number one fear in, in America.
[00:19:08] Cesar: So, uh, I'm curious about, you know, at what point did you incorporated that into your. Into your professional
[00:19:12] Jen: career? Yeah. It's interesting. If you look back, like when I was in middle school and high school, I was really involved in plays and theater and singing and like being on a stage was very normal to me.
[00:19:23] Jen: Then I went to Penn State and I was one, you know, one person in a sea of 40,000 and it like, it just took a backseat, right? And so then when I got into my career at c e b, it was probably years before I did. A big speaking event, but I did little things like, you know, 10, 15, 20 people. And I just realized there was this high that I would get off of doing it and I liked it.
[00:19:48] Jen: So I just tried to find more ways to do more and more, but it was truly, I would say back in 2021. When I started getting more involved on LinkedIn, started getting involved like asked to go on podcasts and then it was on [00:20:00] our podcast. And then it was no longer me asking or me pushing. It was people coming to me.
[00:20:06] Jen: And I think that was a huge boost in confidence to know that someone had heard me somewhere and said, I want that. And so that confidence fueled me to take on more and more. And now it's like, it's my favorite, favorite part of the job. Not even because I like the sound of my own voice. Like I hate watching back, but I'm presenting it just, I'm like, oh, why'd you say that?
[00:20:24] Jen: I'm the same. Um, I think we all are right, but it's because I feel like it's sparks something so joyful in me, and I feel like I've found a way to be really true to who I am so that when I get on a stage, if I'm on a show, anything like that, I don't feel like I'm acting. I feel like it's just an opportunity for me to be.
[00:20:43] Jen: Me. And that's a really cool feeling.
[00:20:46] Cesar: That's a great feeling to have. And when you, when you speak, you know, I know every audience might be a little different, uh, but when you speak in, in general, right, like what, what is the core message that, that you want to leave the audience with, or, or The, the core [00:21:00] feeling that you want the audience to, to walk away with.
[00:21:03] Jen: I love this question because a lot of times when I stood up my speaking business, people would say like, we're looking for a motivational speaker. And I would always say that I'm not the right person for you because I don't think sellers need motivation right now. Everybody's motivated to keep their damn jobs.
[00:21:18] Jen: Like we don't need motivation, but we need is empowerment, right? I want someone to leave a room and say, I feel so empowered to pick up the phone or send an email or. You know, run this sales meeting because I feel like I understand what I need to do on my side of the table. The thing that like drives me up the wall and the reason I love doing these is because I think in many cases, organizations will look at sales and say, we pay you the big bucks.
[00:21:44] Jen: So you figure it out, right? Not recognizing that that is a recipe for failure. Every single part of the business should be highly, highly wired in on how do we help this business sell? But I think so often it's like, it's an afterthought. And so I love going and [00:22:00] speaking in front of sellers and marketers and all GTM roles and helping them understand like what's going on from the buyer's side.
[00:22:06] Jen: Why do these things that sound so logical and well intentioned in our heads actually backfire for us? And I think the coolest compliments you get after that is like, I never looked at it that way. And now that I do, it helps me look at how do I, how do I show up differently in a sale? So that's my goal.
[00:22:20] Jen: It's empowerment, not motivation.
[00:22:22] Cesar: I love that, man. Empowerment. Oof. You got me there. Now. In sales, right? There's a lot of rejection that there's a lot of, uh, resiliency, a lot of trying. Um, what's one moment that comes to mind, you know, where you, you face like a big rejection, like a big failure, uh, and you know, what was it, what was your thought process going through it?
[00:22:46] Cesar: And, you know, what were some of the things that, that you learned from, from
[00:22:49] Jen: that rejection? Yeah, this is one that I will never forget. Um, I was selling to a F. It's probably 30 company, um, huge, huge logo. I got[00:23:00] really, really hung up on the fact that if I could land this, this would be not only financially a huge deal, but just a big deal to be able to earn a logo of that size.
[00:23:08] Jen: And so I spent probably six months talking to someone who now looking back was very much a talker, not a, not a true mobilizer, not a change agent. Um, and. About six or seven months into the deal. My manager was like, look, Jen, this has been in your pipeline for way too damn long. Like we need to know if this is going to close or where this is going.
[00:23:30] Jen: And so I reached out to the president of the company and. Inevitably put my foot in my mouth because I said something I wasn't supposed to know. Um, I didn't do it intentionally, but it happened. And, um, The contact I had been working with called my boss reamed him out. Then my boss called me. It was like, you're about to get a phone call.
[00:23:52] Jen: The guy called me reamed me out to the point where I was like in tears. And it totally shook my confidence because [00:24:00] I thought I, not only did I just lose the steel, like I lost it. It wasn't because they decided not to buy a challenge. It was because they decided they didn't want to work with me. That was like, that one took me a while to get over from.
[00:24:11] Jen: It took me a while to feel confident in going and multi threading because I was like, what if this happens again? Um, candidly, part of it was the manager that I spoke about had, was really focused on rebuilding my confidence. And so. I'm very, very big on people who are willing to be vulnerable, even in positions of like authority.
[00:24:34] Jen: So my manager was talking to me about deals that he had done something similar and backfired on him. And he just said, you know, it's kind of a rite of passage. You made a mistake. You'll never make that mistake again, but you cannot let it knock your confidence because you're going to lose every other deal as a result of it.
[00:24:48] Jen: And so I just think like in that moment, how he supported me and how he made me realize like you're going to put your foot in your mouth at some point in your career. This was a big one, but you got to move on. There's hundreds of other [00:25:00] logos in your territory. Stay focused on the road ahead. Um, so that was a really pivotal moment, I think, to recover from that.
[00:25:06] Cesar: Wow. You were surrounded by like amazing people. Yeah. Like, seriously, that's amazing because it's a big influence, right? Like if, if your manager would have been the opposite of like, Oh, you know what Jen, like, I don't know.
[00:25:18] Jen: Right. I think when you make a mistake, if someone comes over top of you and they're like, Oh, could you make that mistake?
[00:25:23] Jen: When they see that you already are beating yourself up, I just think it's so counterproductive, right? You need confidence in sales. I don't know how anybody sells things if they're not confident. And I think he saw that and said, she already knows her lesson. Like I don't need to dig into the ground even more.
[00:25:39] Jen: And so that stuck with me. Right. Because then when I have managed people in the past, like I look at that lesson, I'm like, I wouldn't want someone to treat me any differently than I was treated. And so you're right. I've been so fortunate to have incredible people around me. Love that.
[00:25:55] Cesar: Now, I know that you recently got married, right?
[00:25:58] Cesar: And you became a stepmom [00:26:00] to four amazing kids. And I wanted to ask you if that has changed your thinking as you approach your career and personal life, right? And also, like, what, what would you want to teach your children about the world of work?
[00:26:18] Jen: Hmm. Such a good question. Um, without question, it's changed.
[00:26:21] Jen: I used to define my self worth by how well I performed at work. So on great years. Fabulous. I have a ton of confidence on bad years. I just felt awful about myself. I had low, low self confidence. I had massive imposter syndrome, whatever word you want to use for it. Like it was just, it was directly correlated to how I felt at work.
[00:26:42] Jen: I think having children in my life. teaches me one work is not everything. Um, two, it forces me to recognize that what I put into my work, I have to put into my home as well. And so I find that I'm much more aware of my balance than when [00:27:00] I was living by myself. And, you know, I could work as many hours a day as possible, right?
[00:27:04] Jen: There was no, like, it wasn't taking me away from anything else. So I think those have been two monumental, monumental lessons that I've learned. And then as it relates to what I want to teach our kids, we've got three girls and one boy and they are just. The coolest little humans, and the girls are all really strong willed really independent, really smart.
[00:27:24] Jen: So is our boy, but in particular, I've got obviously a soft spot for our girls and, um, and you know, one of them actually, when she graduated middle school last year, she spoke at her graduation. She goes to a huge school. So she's speaking in front of an audience, I don't know, like 500, 600 people, which I would freak me out.
[00:27:41] Jen: Right. But watching her and watching her like poise and her force of presence, I just, I find it's so important to just constantly remind these girls, like the world is yours. This is not a man's job. This is not a woman's job. It's anybody's job for the taking. And so I try to encourage them as much as possible [00:28:00] on the things that they love.
[00:28:01] Jen: Cause they're all really different to like, just go all the way and be exactly who you are. And like,
[00:28:06] Jen: He's just who he is like him or you don't like that. That's, that's who he is. And I think that's what, that's one of the reasons the kids are so happy and the reason that they feel confident taking on challenges like that.
[00:28:15] Cesar: I love that. Sounds like you, you guys are doing an amazing job, you know, and it's, it's probably the toughest job you're, you'll ever have in your life.
[00:28:23] Cesar: And something you mentioned that I resonate with is that let letting your kid guide you into what they. Want to do right and not the other way around because sometimes as as parents right we we fall into this Preconceived vision of what your kid is gonna be and it's like doesn't fit, right? Um, sometimes I, I have to constantly check myself, like, no, you know, Lucia wants to do storytelling.
[00:28:48] Cesar: Then that's, that's what we're going to do today. Is your daughter's
[00:28:50] Jen: name Lucia? So is mine. What's our youngest?
[00:28:54] Cesar: Really? That's amazing. It's the best name. I might be five months. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. [00:29:00] She'll be five in July. Aw. Yeah. So we're, we're crazy, Jen. We're our, so we have a second one coming up. In probably end of June.
[00:29:12] Cesar: Oh, my gosh. We're moving to North Carolina. I in September, uh, we, we also live in North Carolina and, you know, we've been in Texas for five years, but we missed the, the friends that we have there, but also geographically, North Carolina, there's the ocean, there's the mountains, there's the green. Um, so there's that, right?
[00:29:31] Cesar: So it was a Big decision. And, uh, I'm doing this podcasting that, you know, trying to just like follow my, if I want to teach my kids, Hey, you follow your thing. I have to take the lead. Right. And do the same because I don't want to be a hypocrite and be like, Oh yeah, you know, just follow your thing, but that is not doing it.
[00:29:52] Jen: And you know what? Someone else said this. I'm not taking credit for this. Someone else said, Um, I think it was a LinkedIn post. I read that their dad had been a [00:30:00] podcaster. And when he passed, they were like, now I have the gift of my dad's voice. And I was like, Oh my gosh, they have LinkedIn. Like I can't.
[00:30:08] Cesar: That's it. That's it. Yeah. Um, yeah. So anyways, lots, lots going on. Right. Um, but I don't think we'll have any other way. Um, love it. Yeah. So, Oh, there's, there was one thing. One of your and then I want to do a rubber for closing with you one of the. Most recent podcast you did, you know, you mentioned something, uh, you were given a choice between one, one and the other one, uh, but you chose the cost, the cost of inaction.
[00:30:36] Cesar: Uh, but of course, right, because it was a rapid fire session, you didn't elaborate more. And I was like, huh, I want to ask Jen about this, right? Tell me more about why do you pick the cost of inaction over the other thing. And if there's a moment in your life where the cost of inaction, you know, like what's like.
[00:30:55] Cesar: A big, uh, hindrance and all your progress.
[00:30:59] Jen: [00:31:00] Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it was cost of inaction versus return on investment, which one I would choose, and I would choose cost of inaction because I think we, as humans. We know this, right? This is prospect theory. Like we respond more urgently to avoiding a risk than we do realizing a benefit.
[00:31:15] Jen: And what are buyers they're humans, right? So I can tell you, Hey, I'm going to 15 times your leads, right? And that kind of becomes noise. Now we all expect that suppliers are going to talk about an ROI. So I'm not saying ROI does not have a place. I'm just saying to create urgency, to create. Willingness to say, let me learn more ROI.
[00:31:34] Jen: I think is just kind of an overused motion. Um, in my life, I would actually attribute, um, Me leaving my last organization, I was massively fearful of what if my success was just because of where I worked, right? What if, you know, I walk away from this podcast that I'd worked really hard to grow. Um, what if people forget about me?
[00:31:55] Jen: What if nobody wants me to speak anymore? Like the, I think cost of an action is [00:32:00] just giving someone to realize, to realize all these, a moment to realize all these, what if moments. Are worse than what if you do nothing? Um, and so when I was making the decision to leave my last organization, it was really, really hard for me because I was, like I said, I was just scared to death that I would become, you know, irrelevant without that company.
[00:32:17] Jen: And I think looking back. I don't think I would have left any earlier because my experience and what I gained there was just incredible. Like some of the best years of my career, but I do think part of what kept me there in the end, probably a little bit longer was just that, that fear of, of what if I go and it's, it's terrible.
[00:32:35] Cesar: So yeah, that fear of uncertainty of also, right. We brought our identities to, to the projects, to the role. And if they're successful even more, right. Because we want like, We succeeded at that thing, right? Um, it's important to remind to remind ourselves that we're not our titles. We're not, uh, we're human beings, right?
[00:32:56] Cesar: Capable of doing whatever we set our minds to. Um, of course, [00:33:00] it's easier said than done, right? But, uh. Yeah.
[00:33:02] Jen: And I think like, you know, LinkedIn creates this really unique opportunity for all of us. Right. If I could go on and keep talking and people were listening. And I think that is something, you know, I really want salespeople to embrace.
[00:33:14] Jen: Not everybody should go on LinkedIn. I'm not saying like everybody needs to be on it, but to be able to have a platform like this, it's the only reason you and I met. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Would we have crossed paths otherwise? Like it just, it creates so many opportunities if you feel like you can get your core job done and be on it, but my gosh, I wish I would've just taken the bull by the horns way sooner than I did.
[00:33:37] Jen: Absolutely.
[00:33:38] Cesar: Well, awesome. Jen. Well, I want to do a rubber fart. We're basically, I'll ask you a question and you just give me a tough on my answer. 30, 40 seconds, um, starting with, uh, one book that has greatly influenced
[00:33:50] Jen: your life. This one's an easy one. It was the challenger sale literally changed me from being a relationship builder who believed that everybody bought from me because they [00:34:00] liked me.
[00:34:00] Jen: And then having the hard facts. It's shown at me, like it has nothing to do with people liking you or not. Um, that totally changed me. It completely changed the way I sell sold.
[00:34:10] Cesar: You know, I've, I've been recommended that book. I'd never really pulled the trigger. So you may have just convinced me to do it.
[00:34:15] Cesar: Must. And I'm not a salesperson, but I don't know why I just keep reading these books about sales. You know, I guess. Yeah, yeah. If you're, if you're an entrepreneur, right. You're in sales, right? So I guess. That's what comes down to, um, all right, next question. One of the worthwhile investments that you have made recently, you know, and this could be financial.
[00:34:34] Cesar: It could be a thing, a relationship.
[00:34:38] Jen: Gosh, good question. This is probably a really lame answer, but it's the first one that came to a head and that's the point of rapid fire. I think. Yeah. Canva actually Canva just paying a monthly subscription to that. As stupid as that sounds, I think sometimes what we say gets lost if the way that we present it is really boring and dull.
[00:34:58] Jen: And so when I left Challenger, I bought [00:35:00] Canva. I started using it for a lot of my content in my posts and it really helped me stand out. So that's what I'm going with.
[00:35:06] Cesar: Well, Canva is amazing. Um, you know, and they have added so much. To it that, uh, yeah, I, I, I need to go down the rabbit hole, but I'm, I'm also a premium user and highly recommended.
[00:35:15] Cesar: Great tool. Awesome. Well, next question. Is there a quote that you think of often? Or a life model?
[00:35:25] Jen: I mean, the golden rule sticks out to me. I know it's kind of cheesy, but I just think you should treat others the way you want to be treated. That has never served me poorly. And I think you just never know when life is going to make you cross paths with someone that you've wronged.
[00:35:41] Jen: So to the extent that you can without harming yourself, just treat people with kindness and recognize that people have bad days. It doesn't make them bad people.
[00:35:50] Cesar: Well, that's why it's the golden rule.
[00:35:51] Cesar: All right. Next, next question. Is there any habit that you have implemented recently that has [00:36:00] had a big impact? There
[00:36:03] Jen: actually is. So I was doom scrolling on Tik TOK, um, a couple of months ago, and I read this Tik TOK that was talking about how people who struggle with burnout often have an addictive relationship to stress.
[00:36:20] Jen: And so they think if I quit my job, that will fix my burnout. What they don't realize is they replace the job stress with stress in another avenue of their life. And so it hit me because. I was really burned out when I left challenger. And then I saw myself go right into those same patterns with my speaking business.
[00:36:39] Jen: And it was talking about the importance of just exercise and physical fitness. And I've completely slacked as it relates to going to the gym. So in the last month I've now, um, as silly as this sounds like. My husband and I, we live about a mile from a Lake. And if we do the walk from there and back around the Lake, it's a three mile walk.
[00:36:59] Jen: [00:37:00] And so we have found time five days a week to do this walk together. So it's increased our, you know, quality time with each other. And it's also got me outside and I don't know what it is about taking a walk, but like it activates a ton of creativity. So when I get back to my desk, I'm way more energized and I usually come back with an idea for a poster, uh, you know, a podcast or something.
[00:37:20] Jen: That I wouldn't have thought just sitting here, staring at this damn screen.
[00:37:23] Cesar: I wonder if we'll ever got an email from you and wondering, I wonder if Jen just came back from a walk.
[00:37:29] Cesar: I love that. Um, one last question and then we'll, we'll wrap it up. Um, Any, well, we really talked on that, uh, any hobby or interests outside of work.
[00:37:38] Jen: Well, I love my doggos as you know, but one that I picked up in COVID was skiing. Um, and obviously we don't live near a mountain. We live in Chicago. There's like a little weenie mountain in, in Wisconsin that we go to, but it's like a one second ride.
[00:37:49] Jen: But I mentioned it because one, it got me outside, which as you know, is a problem. Um, but two, it was really. Funny learning something as an adult, like [00:38:00] you think about things that you truly learn when you're this old, I'm 41 and I had skied in high school, but I had not skied since then. I went, I think like once or twice and just the whole process of trying to learn when you're.
[00:38:14] Jen: Stubborn as you are when you're older was really hilarious to me. So I think it was good. It was really humbling experience. I'm still not amazing, but I am, I did get a lot better. And so that's been a really cool hobby that now we take a bunch of ski trips every year and I just really enjoy
[00:38:27] Cesar: it. I love the dimension that, you know, it's the humility to learn something new, you know, as an adult, that's, that's, that's.
[00:38:34] Cesar: It's huge. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. Huge. Yeah. Awesome, Jen. Uh, as a way to wrap up the episode, what would be one of your takeaways as it relates to careers and perhaps to members in the audience that might be considering either, uh, leaving their jobs, right? For to pursue the next opportunity or perhaps grow in their current job.
[00:38:58] Jen: I would say take a [00:39:00] page out of your book. Um, what you're doing even with this podcast is what I wish. More people would do beyond all of the great things that you gain from podcasting. There's so much to be gained from. Getting better at active listening, like this whole conversation in the back of my mind, I'm sitting here thinking what an act, what an amazing active listener you are, what an amazing, like your preparation, you can tell, like you take it, like all of these are skills that are so, so important in life.
[00:39:31] Jen: So, you know, if you've, if you felt that urge and say, well, it's too big of a hill to climb, and I don't know if I can do it. Throw that out the window. My gosh, it's so easy to start a podcast today. It's not easy to grow it. I'm not diminishing that, but it's easy to start it. So I would say like, take a page out of your book.
[00:39:45] Jen: If nothing else, it just helps us become better speakers, better communicators, better listeners. And that's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
[00:39:53] Cesar: Thanks so much, Jen. Uh, I appreciate that. And yeah, all those reasons that you mentioned, uh, got me to,[00:40:00] you know, start this podcast and yeah, you know, there's so many skills that you put into place, right?
[00:40:04] Cesar: It's not just the interview. It's like everything else that comes with it. So, but thanks so much. I appreciate you coming along, sharing a bit more about your journey. Uh, yeah. What, what, what, what's the best way to Get in contact with you if someone were to reach out. Yeah. Easiest
[00:40:18] Jen: place is, um, LinkedIn. I hang out there all day long.
[00:40:21] Jen: So it's Jen Allen Knuth, K N U T H. And that's where you'll find me.
[00:40:27] Cesar: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for the opportunity and, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll catch up in a few
[00:40:30] Jen: trips. Thank you for having me. This is a joy.
[00:40:33] Cesar: all right. I hope you enjoyed this episode and thank you so much for listening all the way through. I appreciate you. And I hope that you get some valuable information that you can apply to our personal and professional life. If this story resonated with you and you would like to support the podcast.
[00:40:58] Cesar: Please make sure to [00:41:00] subscribe. So you don't miss out on any future episodes. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I appreciate you. And I look forward to serving you in the next episode.