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Office Talk UK is a fortnightly podcast hosted by Dave Sharp, and a great excuse for him to have conversations with leading UK architects about their approach to business, marketing, communications and brand strategy.
Office Talk has been shortlisted for the 2023 ArchiTeam Awards for Innovation & Contribution to Architecture, and the 2022 Archiboo Awards for Best Podcast.
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp dot com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at office dave sharp. Joining me on the show today is Luke McLaren, a director of McLaren Excel, a London based practice known for delivering beautifully conceived and finely crafted buildings. In this episode, Luke and I discussed the importance of communicating projects in a simple, restrained way rather than over complicating their images with too many distracting elements.
Dave Sharp:We looked at how designing to a long held set of values has led to the practice having a stylistic consistency throughout their work and a more distinctive brand image. We talked about the importance of photographing projects in a way that emphasizes the feeling of being inside the building and how their photography process can often involve shooting a project multiple times before the right feeling's achieved. And finally, we talked about the richness that comes from having a clear focus and specialization and how the practice benefits from not trying to do too many different types of projects. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Luke McLaren from McLaren Excel. Luke, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Luke McLaren:Yeah. Morning, Dave, or evening for you.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Evening for me. Morning for you. It's great, isn't it? Would you mind just starting off with maybe a little bit of a background?
Dave Sharp:Tell us the history. Clarinix. So you guys have been going for, like, 13 years. Right?
Luke McLaren:Yeah. That's right. About 13 years now. Time flies. And it was set up by by Rob and myself, as the only 2 founders, hence the name.
Luke McLaren:And we we we've known each other for a very long time. We're childhood friends, really, before any of this started. So, not that we ever had any, you know, long term, ideas about doing something like this. It just happened very organically. But and, we've both been to university at the same time.
Luke McLaren:We've been working in different practices in London for a while. We lived together for a period or 2. And, you know, we chatted about it, on and off as a as a as a concept, nothing more than that. And it was it wasn't very serious chat. It was just, you know, conjecture.
Luke McLaren:And it just turned turned out that at about the same time, we, both were sort of at a point in our working lives where it just made sense. And it like a lot of people you speak to founded businesses of their own, we couldn't have done it at a worse time. And when we chose the financial crash and the immediate aftermath of that to set up our our practice, it was about 2009, 10 that we, formalized things. So then we had been working together slightly informally before that. So looking back now, I think of what we're thinking, setting up a practice and, and, you know, at that time.
Luke McLaren:But, you know, you're young and you don't have many responsibilities and the risk doesn't seem that bad. What's the worst that can happen? I can't get a job again. So, so that's how it started, and it was just the 2 of us, and it was it was, 2 of us for a year or 2, I think. And we're working on, you know, not much.
Luke McLaren:We I've been practicing, as a sole practitioner myself for about 5 years before that. I'd rather been doing various, commercial, jobs at the same time. And we, you know, like like you hear a lot, we got one lucky break, and it was quite a small break. It wasn't it wasn't you know, it's gonna change our lives, but we didn't think it was then anyway. And it was it was a small project, and we had a bit of, a bit of a a sort of mini portfolio of stuff we'd done, which was nice enough, but, you know, it was limited.
Luke McLaren:And so, you know, we we didn't have too much to show as, you know, here's us. Here's what we can offer. And but we had incorporated, and we had, you know, I say come up with our names, just our surnames. But, you know, we'd we'd set up the business formally. You know, outwardly, we had a name, and we had a small, modest website.
Luke McLaren:I mean, it was one job that turned out to be creatively interesting for really great people who are very open to our ideas and and, you know, were happy to to give us the responsibility of looking after their hands for them. And and we did that job. It was called Ingersoll Road. And very quickly, once that had finished I mean, the whole process took a couple of years. But once that job had been finished and we got it photographed and out there And this was all new territory for us at the time.
Luke McLaren:You know? We had no idea how to get a project out there or how to market ourselves or what the right places were or how quickly we should be trying to get it impressed online. But it, you know, it just did its it did its thing, and and we had no PR, obviously, and no representation. And we we in our amateur, ham fisted way, we we marketed the project, and, and that just got a huge amount of traction, and people really liked it. And, work came in from there, so then we had to employ someone.
Luke McLaren:And suddenly, rather than working on sort of one and a half jobs, we're working on 5, and you have a small business. And that was probably around 2012, 2013 ish that happened. And that was a fun time, Jeremy, because that was the year of the London Olympics. We were living in London and working in London. This was all taking off.
Luke McLaren:So it was a it was a really positive time for us, and it's just evolved from there, you know, to employees, to 5 employees, and, you know, you just gain momentum and and build up over, yeah, 10, 13 years.
Dave Sharp:Has it primarily been residential work from the very beginning in terms of projects that you've been focusing on, or was there different sort of periods you've gone through where maybe the strategy was a little different, tried to look at other kind of categories more predominantly than resi, or what's the main focus kind of been since, like, around that first project until now?
Luke McLaren:Well, over the whole period, it's changed. But certainly in that first 5 years or so, 5, 7 years of practice, it was it was all resi. I I think we had 1 or 2 commercial jobs that were out of context, if you like, in terms of the the work we're doing in the practice. You know, don't forget, we we were building a business at the same time. So it was important to me anyway, that you stay in some sort of comfort zone from a from a kind of know how point of view whilst you're dealing with all of these things you have no idea about, you know, employing people, having an an actual office that's not, you know, the back room in your in your house or your flat, and, getting into accounting and marketing and insurances.
Luke McLaren:You know, all the stuff for small businesses you have to deal with and you've never done before. So in some respects, in the early days, you know, we were scrambling to to sort of look like we were serene above the water. And, you know, I wouldn't say it was chaos below the water, but it's certainly not the polished professional outfit that you're presenting yourself as because everything's new. But from a work point of view, that was always under under control. But, you know, my view was stick to what you know.
Luke McLaren:Learn to walk before you you try and run, on on projects that you're clear in your own mind you can deliver. Otherwise, the whole thing could come crashing down. And then some commercial work started to to, you know, come on board. The more people you meet, the more jobs you've done, the more encounters you have with people that that that, yeah, the chances of your work type evolving, increases, and and that that happened naturally. It wasn't something that we particularly targeted.
Luke McLaren:But so now now I'd say today, we have a a probably a split of about 80, 20, probably in favor of resi, maybe 70, 30. But but, yeah, it's still it's still predominantly residential work, but it is nice to have a a variety and a bit of change sometimes too.
Dave Sharp:That first project that went out there that sort of just took off and had a life of its own, it's amazing where projects can do that. What was it that gave that particular project at that time? Like, it really resonated with people or it really struck a chord that it attracted in all these new projects. And
Luke McLaren:Yeah. I think it was 2 things. One one was serendipitous and the other was was more more in our, power to control. It was a standard Victorian terrace house rear extension lock. So the project typology was not exactly unusual.
Luke McLaren:And, and and the, you know, our brief was like any other brief for for a house like that. But the the the the difference was, for us, at least, the the, the couple we're working with on that project were really open minded. And they they really like what we've done before, which as I say, was was, you know, it was a minimal sort of, sample of work, if you like. But they were, they they bought in and were fully on board. And and we just got to I think we there's always a risk when you get your first sort of great project that you want to design in every great idea you think you've ever had because, you know, now's the opportunity to make good on all the things you've always said.
Luke McLaren:Oh, I'd love to do this. I'd love to do that. But, of course, that's the worst thing you can do. Right? You need to be restrained in your own sort of thinking and remain a bit disciplined and say, look.
Luke McLaren:There's time for all these ideas. Let's just let's just take one idea and do it really well, rather than over complicate. And so I I think on that job, we we what we did was really sort of edit ourselves quite well on it, and we kept it simple. We were very aware of not trying wanting to try too hard because I think that's, you know, when you're starting out and you wanna make an impression and you wanna grow your business and you wanna make a statement with your first sort of offering that goes out in the world, and the danger is you do try too hard, because you you're so desperate to get it right. Feels like it's sort of one chance moment, if you like.
Dave Sharp:You know, you you just feel
Luke McLaren:the pressure of that at that time. And so I think I think what we did well there was was not well, it's it's funny. You're sort of you're telling yourself not to try too hard. And so you're you're you're kind of constantly questioning what you're doing in that regard, which in in its own way is a slightly cyclical bit of negative behavior. Right?
Luke McLaren:Because you're you're not actually just sort of thinking freely and acting freely on your instinct. But, but I think we, yeah, we kept it simple, and we we just took an approach that was unusual. So, materially and spatially, I think it just did some really nice interesting things that you didn't see every day. And we we tried to elevate it to something more than, you know, what that kind of project typically ends up being. So So I think from a design point of view, it was, I think what was good, and that was, you know, part of its success in being taken up and looked at and liked by people.
Luke McLaren:But the other thing was, it was roughly around this time that Instagram came along, and we had no real sort of concept or understanding of social media and its potential power. And I say potential because I think at that moment, it was just taking off. The visual side of social media, I think Twitter had been around for a while, and, obviously, Facebook had been around for a long time, but those are mostly social things rather than, at least to begin with, business things. All of these more visual social media platforms, Pinterest, Instagram, I know Twitter can be visual and and, stuff, but the the primary visual ones were just starting to take off at that point. And it was just lucky that we were able to fill up photos and tag them and then let the algorithms do their thing.
Luke McLaren:So with very little effort, we we started doing this, and a lot of people were thinking the same thing at the same time clearly. And so I think it was just it was just good timing that we had this platform to, send our our photographs of our work out to the world, and they were seized on, by, you know, enough people to, to give it a little bit of traction. So, those two things.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. Striking the right balance between your business goals and the long term integrity of your brand starts with a comprehensive and considered marketing strategy. At Office Dave Sharp, we work exclusively with architectural practices to provide you with a deeper understanding of your brand and an in-depth strategy that brings your ambitions to life. Through the creation of a bespoke 12 month marketing plan, we develop a complete understanding of your business and identify areas for elevation and improvement, from your media strategy and brand identity to your messaging project imagery and beyond. With a long standing background in architecture, strategy, and marketing, we use tested methodologies and measurable approaches to help you better navigate the path forward.
Dave Sharp:To learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp dot com. The recipe of taking a fairly common project type that there's a lot of out there in the market and then doing something different, unusual, unique in that project type, that does seem like a good recipe for a bit of notoriety and also then potentially converting into clients because people are quite literal in how they think about their project. Right? They go, oh, they've done one of those side return extensions or loft extension terraces just like what we need. It feels like that's a good combination of a really common brief with a unusual or unique approach.
Luke McLaren:Yeah. And and there's so many of those projects out there that are all competing for sort of airtime. Not that this is why you design the way you design, but it it clearly helps if you can stick your your head above the parapet a bit and and distinguish yourself from from from everything else. I also think that and I still think this today, a fact of, of of working in design in in many respects that when your means or your brief or your whatever it might be, that there are limitations. Right?
Luke McLaren:So it's budget, it's brief, it's locale, it's client, it's whatever. All projects have their limitations. But I think in a way, the more constrained you are as a designer, often that results in the more distinct creative work. If you have a blank canvas carte blanche to do whatever you want, that's a great opportunity. Don't get me wrong.
Luke McLaren:I I think this and this leads on to a whole other thing about being, like, true to value and true to your sort of core design principles and everything else. You know, we we don't we don't design so that our projects attract more coverage. That's definitely not what we do. But I think as long as you're as long as you have a really strong, clear conviction about what you wanna achieve and do as a designer and being really true to those values and designing things for the right reasons in your own very personal specific way, I'd like to think that the work then always appeals to a certain market and, and and sort of has an integrity to it and a consistency to it that represents a certain type of, you know, design value.
Dave Sharp:Looking back, I guess, over the trajectory of the projects that you've done over the 13 years, what are the patterns that have emerged that you feel like the projects tend to have in common? There's always this big debate amongst architects about, do we have a signature? Is every project completely different? Interested in your sort of take?
Luke McLaren:You you you get asked quite a lot or or not if if not asked commented on your work that comes on quite a lot saying, oh, you know, I love your I love your style or, you know, you guys definitely have a house style or a signature, you know, where working and stuff. And we never intend for that to happen. But but of course, if you're consistent in why you're doing what you're doing, then inevitably there's gonna be some some sort of, fingerprint on your work. Right? And that's gonna that's gonna come across as a, you know, a reasonably consistent way of doing things.
Luke McLaren:What are the values? What are what are the kind of consistent traits? I I suppose, you know, a lot of design, I think, is intuitive. And so we don't talk about it or or or vocalize why we're doing what we're doing, but but the reasons we're doing it are always the same. And and and I don't know what the reasons are, but I do know what their outcomes are, if that makes sense.
Luke McLaren:So we're very preoccupied with materiality and really enjoying the materiality in in the world we do and and thinking of of of buildings as experiential, rather than, just, you know, a series of concepts or, ideas. And so that that's that kind of I wouldn't say, I guess, top billing or anything, but that's that's definitely a kind of big preoccupation. Light the way light natural light predominantly, affects a room, affects a person in that room. Rhythm is something that is it crops up time and again, this sort of idea of creating rhythm and enjoying rhythm and how, you know, pathos can affect your design work and, and the experience of it. Composition, that's a slightly more intuitive thing, I think, composition, because, you can sometimes end up chasing your tail trying to get that right.
Luke McLaren:But actually, you often get that right just through a natural process of evolving the work. Underlying all of this are are are people in place and, you know, who you're designing for, why you why are you building this building, what's its use, how does it need to perform. But they're all givens, if you like. You know, that's that's that's your starting point. But then when you kick on from that starting point and you and you get into the design work, it's those other things that that come into it.
Luke McLaren:But I I would say experience, you know, thinking of buildings as experiences rather than as objects is really important. Whenever you walk into a building, whether it's designed by us or by someone else, I always think the most important thing is how does this building make you feel, particularly if it's a home. But, you know, if it's an office, if it's an art gallery, if it's a church, it doesn't matter what it is. How does that building make you feel? And that's not incidental.
Luke McLaren:You know, that is a very deliberate part of the kind of, you know, the the the art of architecture. And we think about that a lot. And and every time I go to one of our projects that that's finished or I'm revisiting it years later, that feeling you get when you walk in, you, you know, you remember it from the last time or or or you if it's the first time you're going in when it's when it's when it's completed, you're hoping it's what you thought it would be. And it always surprises you to some extent. You know, you can't predict how I'm gonna always feel walking into a new project.
Luke McLaren:But as long as there is a kind of an emotive response to a building, that I that I would say is is is one of the most important things that that we think about when we're designing our projects. And and then, you know, just simplicity. I think keeping your thought process simple, keeping the the conceptual clarity of the scheme really, really clear in your mind, and and try not to sort of veer away from that throughout the the the evolution of of the design.
Dave Sharp:In terms of your photos, your branding, I'm always interested in hearing how practice would describe their own work and then sort of thinking about what is that also a fitting description of their brand and the impression that they create. And when you talk about materiality, simplicity, composition, feeling, if I was to take those four words and try to create a brand that just sort of articulates that in some pure form, I feel like it would be a little bit McLaren Excel ish in terms of you've chosen a few things, and you're just really, really trying to push them forward really hard, those few kind of key things. Right?
Luke McLaren:Well, that's good. At least I'm not losing the plot.
Dave Sharp:I think you've done a good job, you know, because I know I know how important that stuff has been to you in the process.
Luke McLaren:Yeah. It has been it has been really important. And I mean, all designers, artists, creatives, whatever, I I think I mean, I hate talking about our work. You know, you asked a lot about you know, talk to us about what why you did this or, you know, what's your approach? And it's like I said, a lot of it a lot of it is intuitive.
Luke McLaren:So that's one reason. But the other reason is just you know? It's there. You know? Enjoy it if you want to.
Luke McLaren:Don't if you don't. It is what it is to you. I don't, you know, I I don't really want to talk about it. You know? I could talk about it if it didn't exist to maybe help describe it to you.
Luke McLaren:But as it does exist, you can have a look at it and make your own mind up. I suppose what you're talking about ultimately is the kind of consistency of message and, wanting to build a body of work that we feel represents our design interests, our sort of design philosophy, if you like, and and and wanting to just ensure that that that that offering and that messaging is just is very consistent. You're inevitably gonna produce a sort of house style if your approach is kind of consistent and you're pursuing similar ideas all the time. But how that's ultimately, conveyed through our website, through our social media and marketing and everything else, it has has been really important. And I've and it's so easy to lose the thread there.
Luke McLaren:It's so easy to to relax it a bit. And I I I and and when if if that happens, the risk is that that the work lacks a specific direction.
Dave Sharp:What would be a situation where you would be potentially like letting your guard down and relaxing that?
Luke McLaren:I mean, there's been sadly many instances where we've photographed a project, spent, you know, 2 days kind of prepping, getting it ready, then the actual photography itself, and then all the kind of to and fro in the postproduction. You get the photos, and you look at them and just go, they just don't they just don't communicate what that, you know, what these spaces are like. And and I I do not feel that that that these photos convey what I know to be true when you're in that building. And so you can spend 1,000 of pounds and days of your time and and and get, you know, a set of photos that are not representative, and I'm not we're not happy with them. So we will do that again till we get them right because and and it's not it's not a case of wanting to create you know, a false representation of the project.
Luke McLaren:And you do sometimes see photos that you highly suspect are, are there as as an end in themselves rather than that, you know, a documentary of something else. So it's not that. It's just important that, ultimately, what goes out there and what people see of our work is reflective of the work itself, in the true sense. How we control, I suppose, is is the right word. The way our our work is documented is is really important.
Luke McLaren:And that that is fairly I think that results in a fairly consistent representation on our, of our portfolio. But it can be things as sort of simple or or flippant as, I don't know, the wrong comment, or, a really a really ugly piece of furniture that just doesn't work in that space or, you know and and these things can seem petty and and, you know, unimportant. And sometimes maybe they are, or maybe we we, we think about more about these things too much. But but I but I ultimately, I don't think it is unimportant because, you know, I could be doing anything. I could be selling pharmaceuticals.
Luke McLaren:Right? I'm not. I'm designing buildings, and I want to do that really well, and so does Rob. And so how how we do that and how we show them and portray them and, you know, how we how we create our own particular niche in a very busy, cluttered world is important. And so we we take great care to make sure that we do it right.
Dave Sharp:When you mentioned that sort of ugly piece of furniture that throws everything out out of whack, it sort of makes me think about generally this idea of should styling in imagery be quite minimal or what a theme that you've mentioned a couple of times is avoiding trying too hard and maybe having a little bit of restraint. And I sort of imagine that that's also something that comes into, you know, not overcrowding a project with too much furniture or kind of overcompensate or fill the space with stuff as kind of a defense mechanism, but to kind of go, no. No. No. We have to actually kind of strip it back and just sort of let it be what it is.
Dave Sharp:Is that kind of the thought process, or is it something a little bit different?
Luke McLaren:A little bit. No. No. There's a lot of that. But this is a minefield that we repeatedly kind of wade through.
Luke McLaren:And and we we I think we know ultimately what the answer is, but every time we are sort of documenting a completed project yeah. Bear in mind, this is often 5 years of work. Right? This is the summation of 5 years of work. So you've been looking forward to this day for a long time, and and it's a it's a proud moment.
Luke McLaren:And, you've been impatiently looking forward to this moment for for sometimes many years. And and so when you get there, you you want to make sure that you you do it justice. Right? All that time investment is is somehow, you know, pays off, with with the, with with the outcome. For us, of course, we're not we're not occupying any of these buildings.
Luke McLaren:That's not the the pleasure for us. It's the pleasure for someone else, and we're very happy that that it is. But, you know, the the gratification for us, other than going to to see it and experience it and revisit it, is is we have, we are signed to show for it, which is which is, photographs. But when it comes to that, it is it's an it's always an agonizing process. You know?
Luke McLaren:How do we do we dress it? Do we dress it at all? Is it just the architecture? Do we bring in a whole load of furniture? Does the client have nice furniture?
Luke McLaren:Does the project lend itself to being very stripped back, or will it feel too sterile? Or what kind of weather are we gonna have on the day of the photo shoot? And will that affect the answers to those questions? Will it feel too bleak? Will it be too saturated with sun and color?
Luke McLaren:And, and all these things are are part of the sort of process of trying to photograph a building. And then you got the photographer. And depending on who you're using, what are their preoccupations? You know? Do they love shadows, or or do they like detail, or are they big on composition?
Luke McLaren:And and and all of our projects, of course, will will will have, their own different emphasis. And I'll know from wandering around those building sites for 12, 18 months whilst the thing's been built. I will have all these sort of views and angles and, ideas in my mind of how I think this building should be photographed. But I can't sit there telling a photographer how to photograph it because that's their art and their craft. And, you know, who am I to tell them?
Luke McLaren:I I can give them my suggestions and then say, right. Over to you. I respect your your judgment and your professionalism, and, you know, you do what you do. I don't do that. So so all this stuff feeds into, ultimately, you know, representation.
Luke McLaren:And if you're trying to at least portray your work consistently, even if maybe it's not used or lived in in a consistent way, then you have to draw a line somewhere. And I think for a combination of reasons, we we decided a long time ago that we've got to limit the variables here. Because if if we don't limit those variables, then I think our our body of work will just be a bit of a visual mess. You take sort of an interior designer, for example, who who, you know, works a lot with color or, you know, maximalists, let's say. You know, that's different.
Luke McLaren:That's a different kind of thing where, you know, more is is better. But I think it just our work, the sort of designers we are, we we wanted to kind of reduce those variables as much as possible so that they're so the architecture is the thing really that you're looking at, and rather than, let's say, a life in that building. Because everyone's life is different. Everyone uses the the buildings differently. And, ultimately, that's that's a very important, you know, aspect to all of this for sure.
Luke McLaren:But that's that person's story, if you like, whereas we want to at least create our story, and make that as as legible and as clear and as consistent as possible. So so a long time ago, we we we drew a line. We said, right. We we photograph the architecture. We we accent it, complement it, if if that's appropriate for this room, this building, and we'll judge that quite carefully on the day.
Luke McLaren:I mean, one of Rob or I are always there on photograph day because I I I you know, maybe maybe I'm sort of paranoid and over controlling, but I feel like I don't leave anything to chance. You know? What you're photographing and how you photograph it is your marketing material. You know? That is your product in the end.
Luke McLaren:Even though there is a building out there somewhere, our product is the photo. So a lot of thought and sort of consideration and anxiety goes into how we photograph the buildings. And, yeah, we the decision we made, I think you can tell, on on on our website and in the portfolio, is is one where we we let the architect lead the talking, and we we we calm down everything else.
Dave Sharp:Smart strategy. The the strategic decision is visual consistency of the work over time is, like, very important, but there's a big trade off to doing it. Right? Because there's other things that you can't do that you might want to do. But Yes.
Dave Sharp:Visual consistency becomes highly restrictive, so we kinda need to know why it's so such a powerful thing. Regardless of your representation strategy, the client is still the core of the project. And then you get to the end, and you've got all those choices around. Now how do we show this project to the world? And that's where there's a little bit of a fork in the road in terms of, like, how do we define our brand?
Dave Sharp:Like, are we very client y, or are we kind of more like the architect? You know, it's kind of this
Luke McLaren:Yes. I think I think that's I think what you've said there is is right. How do we want our work to be, communicated and understood by people? Well, I think we spend so much time in the practice concerning ourselves with all of these slightly less tangible things, like, you know, like experience, feeling, if we weren't to capture that in in its most pure form, then I think that would be a bit of a catastrophe. Because that that that's that's his reason for being, you know, from a from a purely design point of view.
Luke McLaren:You know? This is the this is the sort of the thing we've wanted to create. And I wanna give that kind of full airing, if you like. But but it does it does it slightly sort of bothers me that there is this whole parallel story as well that is the people in it. And and and that's not evident in the way we document our our projects.
Luke McLaren:And I'm well we're well aware that it might well be the case that people don't wanna work with us because they they they worry that we're just gonna create a kind of, you know, museum for them to live in. And that's that's not at all the case from our point of view, but I can understand why they might think that. On the other hand, you know, at the same time, we'll have people approach us who say, everything about what you do, I just love. I don't I don't want you to do something like that for me. And so we've appealed to that side of that person.
Luke McLaren:Exactly.
Dave Sharp:It's just you're just targeting a different type of client, right, who has a different sort of set of priorities and appreciates different things.
Luke McLaren:You know, if I said to you, we only design museums and churches, you'd be like, yeah. Okay. That's that's you know? But we do design a lot of houses. And so that's that's the sort of little bit of kind of contradiction here that there is not so much the house story alongside the architectural story, even though we work for a lot of people who who who live on, you know, live in these buildings every day and enjoy them every day.
Luke McLaren:And and that is a whole that's a whole other story that we don't sort of, talk about or or or show in any way. But it's an important part of it that we're very much plugged into. It's just it's just not not what comes across, on the website.
Dave Sharp:You've got almost a niche in a sense of going like there's a particular type of client, and we're aligning with them. And that's it. We're sitting there. We're doing that thing well. It's kind of similar to what you're saying before about having that consistency and then relaxing it.
Dave Sharp:It's like, do we wanna start chasing after everybody else? Like, I don't know. I don't think so.
Luke McLaren:As I said at the beginning of this particular conversation, when it comes to how do we wanna show our work, that's a really multifaceted complicated answer. And, and a lot of thought goes into it and and, you know, a lot of sort of angst goes into it as well, for all the reasons we've just been discussing. So it's an interesting topic.
Dave Sharp:No. It is an interesting topic. And I think the angst was also interesting because I think it's like all things when it comes to simplicity and minimalism. It often takes a lot of complexity to achieve that appearance of simplicity and minimalism. I think it's the same for more sort of minimalist photography as well.
Dave Sharp:That doesn't just happen by not putting furniture in. It's such a subtle process in terms of who you get to shoot it a lot. Like, everything you're talking about to get that look and that aesthetic is so challenging, and it's not easy and not cheap as well. So
Luke McLaren:No. And and and we don't always get it right. You know, as I said, sometimes you have to revisit. And and there have been projects that we've we've, photographed and documented that are still not quite right, and it still gnaws away at me that they're not as I and also, you know, client, I think, in a couple of instances, has has said the same thing. You know, I just those photographs just don't feel like my my house, and they they don't quite.
Luke McLaren:But, you know, we've gone back 2 or 3 times, and eventually you have to say, I'm not doing this again. We've we've we've we've failed here, but but, you know, they're good. You know, the the photos are good, but they just they just don't quite capture. And and yet other projects you walk into, and you do it in a breeze in 6 hours, and it they're just perfect. And you think this is exactly how I saw this photo shoot going.
Luke McLaren:So there there's no controlling it. You just have to kind of roll with it.
Dave Sharp:And I sound that if your creative direction for your photography is a bit more minimalist, it can be a bit more volatile and unpredictable. I think when there's only a few ingredients in the shot, whether it's just the light or the way a material looks, and that's really what is carrying the photo, something like that can just kinda go off and be slightly wrong, and it's so noticeable. You know? I think if you have the more sort of documentary true to life, how's this space occupied with all the sort of living breathingness of it? There's so many elements, and there's so many ingredients that if little things here and there are kind of a bit off, there's sort of quite a room.
Dave Sharp:You know? You've got a lot of flexibility there, I think.
Luke McLaren:Yeah. Because you can con you can control more, I think. I think when you were saying that, I was thinking, well, I think ultimately what we're trying to capture is is atmosphere, ambiance, feeling, and there's a lot of intangibles there, and there's a lot of uncontrollable things there as well when it comes to photograph photography. So when some of those things don't quite align on the day, as you say, it can cause you
Dave Sharp:a headache. Picked up earlier, consistency. And I guess a big advantage is of consistency. You've already touched on it in several different ways, but I'm just interested in terms of thinking about, like, what the benefits are or why that becomes such a strategic priority. I think practices, some take it more seriously than others, and I think that, you know, McLaren XL has you guys have quite a focused approach on that.
Dave Sharp:Just trying to get in terms of your thinking around that or your philosophy on, like, the importance of that consistency. Why do you think it's worth such a such an effort and such a focus?
Luke McLaren:I mean, I think it comes down to the personalities and the people involved. It's just how you are.
Dave Sharp:It's just you guys. Right?
Luke McLaren:It's just, I think it's just, I think, yeah, I think, I mean, that's a very sort of brief simple answer to your question, but I think a lot of it comes down to what kind of people are you, and in in what in what form do you want to kind of build your practice? You know? What personality and character do you want to have? Speaking for myself, although Rob and I aren't all that different in this regard at all, really, you know, I'm I'm I'm fairly uncompromising in terms of, not in terms of what a client wants, but it's in terms of the general sort of work I want to do with my career, if you like. And I think it can be as simple as saying, I want to do this type of work.
Luke McLaren:And if you want to do a different type of work, that's totally fine, but I'm probably not the right person for you to work on your project. For me, the idea that you, you know, you can be a jack of all trades and you can cater to all kinds of clients, traditional contemporary, city, rural, and just, you know, have a sort of tutti frutti house style or know house style, just the eclectic mix of approaches and and projects. But for me, that's not interesting because you're not evolving anything. You're just jumping around from thing to thing to thing, and, you know, you can do a perfectly good job there. But what's stimulating to me over the long term is evolving your own way of designing buildings that is, you know, as I said, fairly uncompromising, but it's a process of refinement over many, many years.
Luke McLaren:So I think you can only get better at something if you focus in on it enough. And designing buildings is it this is not blowing my own trumpet here. I think you know, ask any architect. Designing a building is an incredibly difficult thing to do, and it takes a lot of time. It takes a huge amount of focus and energy.
Luke McLaren:There are so many mistakes you can make practically and creatively speaking. It's a it's a tricky business to to to be in and and and get I mean, you know, in a way, I'm I'm creating a rock from my own back because I could be a lot more relaxed and laid back about what what we're designing. And that that would be an easier ride for sure. But if if you want to, work on, work in a very particular way and if you want to evolve as an architect and get better and better and become more and more kind of complete, a designer as you progress through your career, I think you've gotta focus, and you've gotta be quite single-minded about the type of work you want to do. And, of course, that that will there has to be some bend inflection there because you're working for for clients who will, you know, have some of their own ideas about how they want you know, the sort of project they want to to deliver.
Luke McLaren:But, but, ultimately, I think that, you know, we will attract the right clients to us because of the type of work we do. So then you're in the same ballpark together. You're not in different ballparks, which which just doesn't work. But once yeah. So once you are aligned and and and you're both pulling in the same direction, then it's a very fruitful relationship, And and and then you start to kind of say, right.
Luke McLaren:Let's let's delve down into this and and and continue the evolution of the kind of work we do with this person. And that's, that's that's the, you know, almost always a very enjoyable experience because every every new project, every new client brings a slightly different thing to your door. And most of the time, that's, that's a positive thing, because, you know, you're you're you're pushing slightly new areas, which I think, you know, is is good for anybody. It's very easy to get static and and set your own your own ways. Change is good.
Dave Sharp:People kinda go against this sort of signature thing. Right? Because I think they kind of have this attitude in the way that they bring it up. By the way, for listeners, whenever any guest brings up a new sort of direction, we like to try it on for size and sort of get get behind it so we can explore it just like putting that up to the side. But the signature thing, there's sort of like this sense of, like, well, if you have a signature, if you have kind of a way or a house style or a way of doing things, you're somehow inflicting that upon clients.
Dave Sharp:Like, they're coming in the door, these poor innocent clients, and they're coming with their brief and coming with their needs and everything, and then they're just having this architect's house style shoved down their throats. But it's exactly what you're talking about that by projecting a consistent and I don't wanna say predictable, but a sense of there's an expectation of the type of work that you generally do because you're so focused. By putting that into the world consistently over a decade plus, I would probably argue those clients are probably being pushed less out of their comfort zone. And then the architect was doing a little bit of every single style and everything imaginable where that client really doesn't know what they're kind of gonna expect. And then they're being presented by whatever idea is being sort of put up at the moment.
Dave Sharp:I guess what I'm saying is if they have a better idea of what to expect from your practice, then they're coming on board sort of already bought into that.
Luke McLaren:That's absolutely right. And it's it's, I think, completely crucial that they do. Because if they're coming into this process a little bit ambivalent or nervous or not sure that you're the right person for them, that's a really difficult place to start any design process. And and I I can't think of many over the years instances where we've started the project and for whatever reason, you know, both parties have said, look. This isn't working.
Luke McLaren:Let's let's let's part ways. That, you know, that that rarely happens if if, say, if ever maybe in the early days, it might have done. But but for the reason that you say that that people come to us because they're familiar with the work, and that's the kind of work they want, you know, for their house or their office or their, you know, whatever it is. And so it's slightly self selecting to a degree. I don't subscribe at all to this idea that you impose older people what you think they should want against their will.
Dave Sharp:But I think sometimes they get linked together somehow, like consistency or having a focus as you're sort of describing it. Somehow then comes hand in hand with this idea of enforcing some design policy onto a client regardless of whether they want it or not. I don't know why those two things get kind of linked together. They're they're totally different. They're
Luke McLaren:totally different issues. I think there's there's a historic caricature of of of the architect that I think still persists, today. That, you know, architects are these, headstrong, slightly, you know, just choosing my words carefully here, you know, psychotic control freaks who want to impose their idea of the world on everybody they work for. And I'm sure there are architects in the world who who lash that description, but that that that I that preconception certainly exists, you know, amongst people to varying degrees. And so I think it's it's a little bit of a monkey on your back that you just have to accept is there.
Luke McLaren:And the only thing I can do about that is persuade the people that I'm working for that that's not us. And I hope they'd very quickly get that, get the idea. But at the same time, like you say, notwithstanding that, they have come to us because they like what we do. So it's not like I have to do much persuading. You know?
Luke McLaren:As long as I think you are it's obvious that you're, you know, you do listen, and and you are empathetic, and you have an understanding of what someone's needs are. That's not difficult. Right? And if if you can, you know, convey that to them very early in the process, then there's a kind of mutual trust and confidence there that that you're you're doing things for the right reasons. And, this is their process to sort of sit back and enjoy, is the idea.
Dave Sharp:And you mentioned earlier how important you felt that constraints were for you creatively. And those constraints in a lot of cases would be important requirements that the client has for their home, right, or their or their budget or the location or whatever. So it's not like we're saying, okay, you need to provide no resistance whatsoever to the architecture practice. Come in completely open slate. We do whatever we wanna do.
Dave Sharp:It's not that sort of thing. But maybe where things have changed in the world is that I think clients and consumers, they have so much choice now. They can go to any architecture practice they choose. They're all so visible. They're so available.
Dave Sharp:You can see so many images, so much work. And so quite often, people will mention this sense of I do a certain type of work for a certain type of client, and it's okay that there are other ways of doing things and other types of clients. And there's plenty of other architects out there to work with, you know, first for other types of things. So, like, yeah, you don't really have to be in the the position of thinking, oh, we have to try and be able to appeal to absolutely everybody. It's just just not realistic.
Luke McLaren:No. It's it's not realistic. And it you know, in our case, once once you have set out on on the road that you're on and decided, you know, this is this is the sort of designer I wanna be, there's so much you you mentioned earlier about how, you know, achieving simplicity is often an extremely complicated process, and it is. To get better and better at that and really become a kind of master of your craft, you have to just keep doing that kind of thing because otherwise you're not practicing for what
Dave Sharp:you're doing. Exactly. You're not doing repetitions. Right?
Luke McLaren:You're not. Yes. Exactly. So, so in many ways, from a kind of personal development point of view and and practice development, I kind of think it would be pointless to try and do an eclectic sort of mix of work. It's that that might sound a little bit maybe limited in attitude, but I think I think it's I think it's important that you you evolve the specific you know, I I I always love it when you're, watching a documentary or reading a book or or you're in a meeting with someone who has spent their career becoming so specialized in something.
Luke McLaren:And I think to myself, I can't believe there are people out there who know this much information about this one tiny little part of the world. You know? And but they do, and it I think that's just wonderful. And what we do is not that specific. I mean, it is quite specific, but it's not it's not one sole thing.
Luke McLaren:You know? But but I'm always impressed by people like that because there's just such a focus and and and a huge amount of knowledge on a very, very particular thing, and the world would be a much worse place if those sorts of people didn't exist. But it's a similar idea that, for us that, although we're a little bit more generalized, you know, we are becoming and hopefully will continue to become very, very good at doing a particular type of thing that is a continual process of improvement and refinement and getting better at art at art craft. And, I think you can't do that if you're looking into new directions at once.
Dave Sharp:I think in the industry, it just comes down to people's difference of opinion on where they draw those lines between where one domain of expertise begins and another ends. I think some people's definition is that, like, all residential work, even that might be considered too narrow of a niche, right, to do new build houses in the country and small alterations and additions in London and heritage listed stuff. Like, all of that should be bundled together, and you're still maybe considered a specialist in their eyes. I think what you're doing is sort of saying, like, we're looking at this very, very narrow slice, and we're sort of considering that our area of focus and going, we're really just gonna try and focus on that and see the idea of just, as you said, sort of evolving that over over a career, and let's sort of see how deep we can go into that. Whereas I think other people look at it and kind of go, I don't see my progression as an architect as being about getting better at a particular area, but about this all encompassing skill of architecture across all categories, across all construction types.
Dave Sharp:Like, maybe that's when you say that loud, you go, that actually sounds a bit crazy, doesn't it? But I guess it just comes down to do you define them as different things, or are they all just the same thing? I think some people say they are all the same thing. So
Luke McLaren:I think the first big question is, you know, are you are you trying what what are you what are you what are you trying to do with all of that? I mean, I'm just sitting here contemplating all now thinking, why? I can't keep you quiet. Why would you want why would you want to take on trying to do all of those things? It's just an impossible task.
Luke McLaren:And even if you can do it, what purpose does it have that that you that you know all these different construction methods and techniques, and you've designed, you know, a Staley home as well as a hospital as well as a, you know, art gallery. I mean, I I of course, there are people who do all of these things, but they can't do them all in a particularly focused way. There will be a kind of, you know, divergent approach there because, because it's it's it's well, it's just a lot. And I don't think one approach, by the way, is any more valid than the other. I just think it's it's it's the way we way we've chosen to go ourselves.
Luke McLaren:But you were talking about kinda going, hey. How deep can we can we can we go with this? And I think there's a real richness in that that when you when you choose to focus on doing things in a particular way, it might not be apparent on the surface. But I think the more you delve into that and the deeper you go and the the more you understand about what what you do and and the different ways you might be able to do it. Out of that, I think, comes a lot of complexity and interesting things that, swirl around and and percolate, and then feed into to to your work.
Dave Sharp:I think that's an interesting aspect of the podcast is that I I try to seek out the people that are at the more extreme ends of the spectrum of Right. Different we'll go the other end of this sort of client versus architecture thing as well, and we'll talk to plenty of those people. There's lots of different approaches to how you could build an architecture practice. And I like that the people that are more in your sort of way of thinking will get to listen to you and kind of get fired up about it and reinvigorate their editing, curating, minimalizing kind of tendencies. I want them to be like, yes.
Dave Sharp:Let's strip it back. So that's the result. I'm happy.
Luke McLaren:You build your business up. You have a if you do have quite a singular idea about where you want it to go, what you want it to be, Rob and I talk quite a lot about how, in a way, you sort of created a monster, in the sense that, you know, you've you've stuck your colors to the flagpole, and, and you've been very clear about what you know, the the the ground you wanna stand on and who you are and what you're about. And the work itself is is difficult to deliver, which is, you know, just intellectually, that's a great challenge. And it but you have created a very singular vision of something that needs to be maintained, and and, you know, evolve in a consistent manner with how you started. And, and and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's definitely something that you you're mindful that, you know, you've come this far.
Luke McLaren:You you need to keep going in this in this direction, and and that's choice. I'm not saying it's not not that. But once you've established your quite tight guidelines that you've imposed upon yourself, no one else imposed upon you, you chose to, you then are you know, you're aware of what you've what you've created and you are extremely mindful that you continue in the same direction. And I don't I'm not saying that's limiting at all because if, you know, if we want to change direction, we would. For whatever reasons, we you know, we, sort of trying to do that.
Luke McLaren:But and there are all sorts of ways that this ultimately impacts you. So, for example, we're well aware that what we do appeals to a very small percentage of people. So this is why I sort of used the word rather rather flippant, creative monster. And that that represents, you know, an ever dwindling market share, right, that you've kind of, you know, sort of like Architecture is art.
Dave Sharp:People are dying off.
Luke McLaren:Yeah. Exactly. It's like it's like the whirlpool in the sea down to the seabed, and it's a very small little circle at the bottom. And there's the whole sea floor or the ocean floor that you've not, you know, you've not explored. You're just focused on this little patch that you're scratching around on and and building your business out of.
Luke McLaren:So, you know, that's what I mean when when when I say that there are I suppose it's a downside in a way. I don't see it negatively. I see it as the opportunity to do to do, as I said, really focused work.
Dave Sharp:I think that's a sign you've actually got a good strategy even if the result or the the appearance of it from the outside was completely different. So completely different practice. I think if you have that sense of I've created a monster that has rules that I have to abide by and guardrails that I have to play within, that's a good sign you've got a strategy. Because I think so much of strategy is about saying, like, we're not gonna pursue all these other alternative options, isn't it? You're going, we're trying to be focused on a particular area, and you should sort of intuitively know the things you can't do.
Dave Sharp:If you've never had that feeling, like, I could just literally do anything. There's nothing. I don't have a code. I got no rules. It's probably a sign you're just kind of floating around like a jellyfish, you know, just kinda going wherever.
Dave Sharp:You know?
Luke McLaren:Like I've said a few times, you know, design work is very intuitive. You you sort of feel your way forward a lot with it. But when you've been doing it for a number of years and you look back and you look at where you've arrived at and the sort of, as you said, the the set of rules you've created for yourself and the type of business you've you've built up, What occurs to you is, actually, the reason they're here as much as anything else is because as it happens, this is what I'm quite good at. So just to kind of put a bit more light on that, there have been examples in the past where we've been working on a project, and they're they're, you know, atypical project for us, say, where, I don't know, there's been a need to consider ornament or decoration or things that that typically not in our wheelhouse. And I will work on that, but I realize I'm not I'm not actually that good at it.
Luke McLaren:You know? This is quite hard for me. And there are other people who do it in their sleep, but for me, this is quite difficult. I I think it's just it just it's a case of you you have subconsciously played to your strengths and arrived where you have arrived because that's where your strengths led you.
Dave Sharp:It's interesting, I think, and all of other listeners would get this as well, but just to sort of see how the input and the output kind of come together, I suppose, in terms of, like, how these rules and approaches have developed out of these sort of natural inclinations and everything and then thinking about how that works for each of us in terms of our own practices or our own businesses. Is the strategy that I've landed on the reflection of, you know, what I'm good at and my strengths? And if not, maybe that's actually a good place to look in the process of it.
Luke McLaren:A good test of this, I think, is when you design your own home. Because I've done that a couple of times, and as it happens, doing it building it right another one right now. But, and a couple of them are on our on our website, and I won't say which ones they are because I think that would give the game away. But when it comes to doing what you do professionally for yourself personally privately, I think that's a really good litmus test of, are my core, you know, design values retained through that process? Because this is now for me.
Luke McLaren:I have the choice here to do this or do that or make life easy for myself or hard for myself or spend this or spend that or, you know, all those decisions. And I have found that, thankfully, I say with some degree of relief that the houses that I've I've designed for myself have been consistent in in everything else we do as well. And and I've really enjoyed living in them. It's not, you know it's it's it's been a kind of affirmation, if you like, of of of of what we do.
Dave Sharp:I guess, like, just in terms of the final kind of chapter of the conversation, thinking about going the opposite direction of everything we were just talking about, which is, like, how do we get out of resi?
Luke McLaren:In having a different variety of work is good is good because there's different ways of working, different pace of working, different criteria. It's healthy and good to change things up and have you know, different paces of of of working. Otherwise, things, you know, can get can get very intense. So, and creatively, it it kind of offers a slightly different outlet too, which I think is important. Yes.
Luke McLaren:We are, as a practice, looking to to push out into other directions. But having said that, I would never want to abandon the kind of the residential stuff because it offers a whole load of opportunities that you don't get in other type of work. It offers the chance to work really intensely with people for whom the project is a very personal, meaningful thing in their life and and and often is the the biggest investment they will make in their life along with the cost of the house as well. But it also gives us the opportunity to try new things, to take, you know, small calculated risks and experiment a little bit. And and by that, I don't mean, you know, do things on the fly that are, you know, with unknown outcomes that are, you know, a complete risk to the sort of functioning, functionality of the the house or the family or the people in it.
Luke McLaren:But I but it's because they are one off projects, because you are dealing 1 to 1, with the people who live there, you can push the boundaries and and do really interesting creatively interesting work that you awesome can't do in a more commercial, environment. For us, me that's kind of you know, it's what we really enjoy doing. Unique unique things on one of projects that we think will be really special. And so I would not leave that behind.
Dave Sharp:Luke, any final conclosures? Any final thoughts?
Luke McLaren:I think it's important that you stay true to your identity as a designer, and it's very easy not to do that. There's lots of reasons why you might not do that. They might be economic. They might be, to do with, the the uncontrolled situation you you might find your business in. They might have to do a chance.
Luke McLaren:You know, you you might you might get an opportunity to work on a on a, you know, a a really big project that economically would be great for your business, but it's just not the sort of work you want to be doing or not where you want to go. I remember very early on in my career someone saying to me, in fact, I think I was still at university. Someone said to me, we were in a lecture series about going into practice. And part of the, one module of it was about, setting up your own practice if that's what you ended up doing. And I remember very clearly this person saying this lecturer saying, your first project, you don't really have a choice about what that is.
Luke McLaren:You you you the chances are you've probably set up the business having secured that project, and it pays the bills and just take it. But be very, very careful at what you take on for your second project because that's the project that will start to define the business you've got, and it'll send you down the road that it, you know, that that that it sends you down. And just put a lot of thought into what kind of practice do I want to have, and how does the work reflect that? And that really stayed with me, and I I would have been only maybe 21 or something at the time. But that really stuck.
Luke McLaren:And I thought, okay. That's that's something to remember. So fast forward all those years, and this goes right back to the first question you asked about our first project and, you know, how that how that was a success for us. And in a way, that that was sort of, a making good, if you like, on that mental note I made all those years ago of this is the sort of practice we want to be. Let's really be careful about how we announce ourselves to the world if you like.
Luke McLaren:Unfortunately, that project just did it for us beautifully, you know, in in a very easy way, without without having to worry about, you know, how how it was conveyed and and and and what the final product was. But, that memory I have from being a student and and how we started the practice and all the way through to now, well, I think one thing I would I would I would say it's been really important to us all along the way is just stay true to who you are and what your core beliefs as a designer are, and don't deviate from that too much. And then there'll there'll always be reasons to well, be reasons to consider deviating from it. Like I said, whether they're economic or reputational or whatever they might be, they're there. And and, you know, obviously, I'm speaking from from my point of view, from the point of view of our practice.
Luke McLaren:But, I think staying true to those values and when it's when it's tempting not to or it's easy to to sort of abandon them, it's probably the time when you need to remain steadfast and stick to them. And I think that's you know, there have been great moments long along the way. The last 13 years, there have been some really difficult ones. And, I would I would say that when when they have been when times have been difficult, it's really important to remember that if if you want to build a business and build a design studio that has, you know, a a a clear and sort of singular offering, if you like.
Dave Sharp:Luke, thank you so much for going on the podcast.
Luke McLaren:Well, Atul, you're welcome. It's been great fun.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Luke McLaren from McLaren XL. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit mclarenxl.com or follow them on Instagram at mclarenexcel. Office talk is supported by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. Our practice works collaboratively with clients across the globe. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation to discuss your studio, simply visit officedavesharpe.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio.