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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Elle: Picture
this for a moment.
You're leading a product
marketing initiative that you
really believe in, but every
direction you turn, someone
else is fighting for the
same limited resources, the
same stakeholder attention,
and the same tiny sliver
of executive patients.
Your inbox is full
of meeting invites.
Leadership wants
numbers like yesterday.
Engineering has their own
roadmap to protect, and sales
is chasing their own quota.
And you know that deep
down, if you don't sell
your vision, your project
is going to get cut folded
into something else, or
starved of support before it
ever has a chance to shine.
That's typically the
reality for pmms inside
big organizations.
The work isn't just
about go-to-market
strategy or launch plans.
It's about winning
the time and space to
actually do it right.
And that's the secret
we're unpacking today.
One of the most powerful ways
to earn that buy-in is to
treat your internal initiative
as the same way you would
treat an external launch.
Give it a brand, give it a
story people can latch onto.
When you do that, you make it
easier for people to say yes.
Plus, you buy yourself the
freedom to do the best product
marketing work of your life.
With that, it is my absolute
pleasure to welcome John
McKiernan to the show.
John is one of those
product marketers whose
career stories you could
not make up if you tried.
He's been head of product
marketing at a startup
that was later required
by Atlassian, the very
move that kicked off
his Atlassian journey.
Actually, he's worked
63 different jobs.
Including a gossip writer and
even Santa Claus at the mall
where he insists that he was
paid better than the elves.
Wonder about that one?
He even ran a custom
songwriting business for
seven years called Romance
Outsourced, and that
landed him as a zeal list
celebrity on breakfast tv.
And if that weren't enough.
Uh, professionally, he went on
to lead the marketing launch
for Jira Product Discovery,
the fastest growing product
in Atlassian's history.
Today he's a product marketing
leader at Postman, continuing
to shape how high growth
products find their Audience.
John, it is amazing to have
a celebrity on the show.
Welcome.
John: thank you.
Is that list celebrity,
but I'll take it.
Thanks for Having me.
Elle: all right, so
let's jump right in.
I wanna start with the
case study segment.
So this is one of my favorite
parts of the show because
it's where we get to dive
really deep into how you,
as a product marketer took
a super tough situation
and turned it around.
So today we're gonna share
this incredible story
about a framework that
you've used to sell your
vision and ultimately
grow product adoption.
And I know you're currently
at Postman and we, I
definitely wanna talk about
that and dig into that.
But, first you applied
this framework to Jira.
And so that's really where
I think this was born.
And that's where I wanna
start for this case study.
Um, and then later
I wanna dig into.
and compare how you applied
that same framework more
recently at Postman.
Sound good?
John: Sounds like a plan.
Elle: Okay.
So set the stage for us.
What is Jira for any folks
who may not know and what
was happening, uh, with
Jira product Discovery
when you first stepped in?
as lead PMM.
John: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So Jira, I think, I think
most people know Jira,
but what many, many people
don't know is there's.
Three different JIRAs, uh,
now anyway, so there's one
in the ITSM space, then
there's big Jira, which is
what everybody sort of thinks
of, project management tool.
That was initially
for developers.
And then there was the
third one, JIRA product
discovery, which didn't
exist at the time.
That's the product that,
uh, I was asked to come in
and, and help leads and take
it from what was enclosed
beta, I think at the time,
all the way through to ga.
So I'll give you a little
bit of context about it.
Um, at the time, and I
think still Atlassian has
like an accelerator where
they would launch new
products, or try to build
new products and launch them.
Uh, not all were successful.
In fact, very few as you'd
expect from an accelerator.
and at the time when
I came across, um, the
product was still in beta.
expectations were pretty high.
The product had been
really beautifully built.
Um, there was a product
team all based in Europe.
Across France and
Ukraine and, and Holland.
And, uh, it would been
really, really beautifully
built, but the product
vision didn't really have
a GTM vision to match it.
And that was kind of,
the challenge that was,
that was facing us.
It had eyes on it
from everywhere.
The, the co-CEOs, the,
uh, the CMO, the, the
head of the accelerator,
everybody was really keen
to see what was happening.
But the growth that kind of,
kind of stalled, you know, it
was still pretty early days.
But, uh, it needed, it needed
some sort of clear GTM vision
as well as, you know, the, the
actually growing the products.
and if it didn't, the, the
truth is, you know, any
of these products could
get, uh, closed down.
They could just get folded
completely, or they just
become a feature in JRR
Atlassian and all of the
other products in the
accelerator that were there
at the same time as that's,
that's what happened to them.
So we managed to escape.
We got that velocity
to actually become
a real life product.
and I suppose one other little
piece of context as well
that's important is that you,
you know, yourself, Phil, from
working in, in big enterprise,
you, you can't really
have a moderate success.
You know, it has to be on
a path to like a, you know,
a hundred million dollars
of a RR within a few years.
Otherwise, you know, that
attention and all of that
engineering time is better
spent on the main product.
Elle: Yeah.
I've absolutely had that
experience where, if you
have something that you
are committed to working
on, but you're not hitting
the targets that have been
set by leadership for that
leadership team, you know,
they have their targets that
they're trying to commit to.
Commit to, to, from
their stakeholders.
So all of it kind of
ladders up to that.
And at the end of the day,
it's time and resources
spent on something.
And when you're a high
growth company startup, um,
or if you're in any kind of
accelerated growth phase,
it's ruthless out there.
And sometimes if you can't.
Make it, then you're cut.
So sounds like the
pressure was on.
take us back to then, what
action did you take and what
action did the team take
once you figured out that
you needed to make sure that
the product didn't get cut?
That it got the funding
and resources and
attention that it needed.
John: Yeah, so this
was a bit of a learning
curve prior to Atlassian.
I actually got to Atlassian,
as you said, via an
acquisition of a startup, and
my whole life was startups.
That was just where I got
my energy, where I still
got my energy and uh, I
always thought that coming
into a big enterprise,
launching a product
would be so much easier.
You know, you have all of
these resources and you
have all of this budget, but
whew, I was naive and I was.
Very wrong.
You know, the, the truth
is that it's something that
we don't talk about a lot,
but it's kind of obvious
when you think about it.
If, if it was easy to
launch new products from
enterprise, there would be
no such thing as startups.
There'd be no such thing as
m and as because it's hard.
We stand on our own toes.
There's, you know, Atlassian
had 10, 12,000 people.
You've got multiple
cross-functional teams.
There's 10 different products
all competing for attention
and energy and resources.
So it took me a bit, when
I went in, it took me a bit
to realize that, ah, okay,
this isn't just a clear path
where everybody's completely
focused on driving this
in the same direction.
I kind of have to
carve out some space.
I kind of have to carve
out, like a brand, I suppose
to wrap around, uh, the
whole launch and sort of
give us the protection that
we needed to get it done.
Elle: Yeah, and I guess
like once you've realized
you needed to build that
brand, talk a little bit more
about how you actually get
buy-in across the business
for something like this.
John: Yeah,
so this, this is, you know,
I'll sort of start as, as I
often do with my mistakes.
You know, the first thing
I did when I went in was.
Do what sort of any
marketer would do.
You sort of look at
the problems and you
talk to the customers.
You come up with this
pretty comprehensive GTM
plan and you're like,
okay, boom, I've got it.
I know exactly what
we're gonna do.
You bring it on tour,
you're like, okay, here's
what we're gonna do.
And I. remember sort
of sitting in one of
the leadership meetings
and, and sort of trying
to talk through it.
And you sort of have these
like blank, you know that zoom
screen where everybody just
sort of giving you the blank.
And you're like,
please, please somebody
just say something.
And really it, it wasn't
that they didn't understand
it, it was just that
what I was trying to get
across was quite a lot.
And again, you gotta
consider the audience.
These are like C-suites are
making decisions constantly.
And all of these details
that I was getting into
were a bit too granular for
one and two in isolation.
Some of the tactics
could seem, could
seem a bit strange.
So to give you like a
tangible example, uh, myself
and the head of products
were pretty aligned that.
As well as sort of launching
the product itself.
We wanted it to be connected
pretty tightly to the craft
of product management.
So Jira Product Discovery
was built specifically
for product managers.
Product management is a
pretty low maturity craft.
There's a lot of project
managers who are just told by
their companies, Hey, you're
a product manager now they do
like a YouTube course for for
an hour, and then off they go.
So we realized if we wanted
to sort of grow, not just
the product, but also
the segment for product
managers, we'd have to.
Uplevel the whole craft.
And you know, when you're
sort of, you're building
something that's in beta and
you're talking about craft
and community, you know, you
kind of get the view from
execs going, well, you know,
what about top of the funnel?
What about signups?
What about paid ads?
And so forth.
And that's kind of
what I was faced with.
So I walked away from
that Zoom meeting, had a
little cry, uh, and went
for a walk, came back,
sort of took my time.
And then one of the
newsletters that I.
subscribed to was Lenny's
newsletter, which is one
of the best, uh, high
recommendation for anybody in
Elle: I follow
it and I love it.
John: yeah.
He's honestly, it
just feels smart.
Oh, yeah.
I could go all day
talking about Lenny.
And I, I, I read this article
that he had posted about a
race car growth framework and.
At the top of the page, it is
just this like pretty picture
of a simple car, like an
orange race car with like tags
to the different parts of the
car and different tactics that
you could use for marketing.
And it, it just immediately
resonated with me.
I was like, that is such
a simple way to get across
what you're trying to say.
Like to show your
holistic vision of what
you're trying to do.
You know, not just fill the
top of the funnel, but to fix
any issues that are there to
sort of build out the crowd.
All of that stuff, to
put it into one space.
But I didn't actually use it
at first because I thought
this is, this is too simple.
This is almost like
something my, my kid would
do, you know, like the
drawing of a race car.
I can put that in
front of my CMO
Elle: it's a little
silly, right?
Especially at some, at a place
like Atlassian or like a big
organization where you have
these executives that are,
it almost seems silly to,
to show something like that.
John: It does.
Yeah.
The first time I put it into
a Loom video and shared it for
like an async project update.
I remember just like, it
was a Friday afternoon and I
just like poured a glass of
wine and I was like, well,
that might be my last day.
So, uh, I'll just.
I'll enjoy this glass of
wine, but it really works.
I, I started to, uh, like
take, take apart this race
car and use it for my, for
my marketing launch, and it
helped me tell a story in
a way that I just couldn't
have done in any other way.
Elle: I love that.
Okay.
And I can, I like that you,
walked us through that first
attempt of building out
that go-to-market strategy
and the blank stares that
you got on the Zoom call.
I think many product marketers
out there have been there.
I have certainly been there.
And recognizing the
audience of executives.
And you are one of
probably 15 to 20.
Where they're seeing
and hearing very similar
presentations, pitches, what
have you, and talk about
putting yourself in their
shoes and thinking about
how they might interpret
this and being too granular.
So love the new approach
and, um, shout out to, to
Lenny and that framework.
but I have to ask what
happened in the end.
Sounds like you, yeah.
Oh, you had the, okay,
this might be my last
day, but it took on.
John: Yeah, well let, I'll
take a step backwards first
and sort of walk through
what the actual race
car growth framework is.
It'll, it'll sort of help
explain why it works.
I'd recommend going to
check out the article for
anybody who has the time.
There's
Elle: We will definitely
link it in the show notes.
Yeah.
John: Dude, dude, there's
like a simplified version,
and then there's a com, like
more comprehensive version.
And really it has like every
single marketing tactic under
the sun that you can use,
which in itself is quite
useful, but you can pick
and choose what you need.
So for me, what I was
using was four different
aspects of this.
Framework, metaphor, brand,
whatever you want to call it.
First one was growth engine.
All right?
And the growth engine is
how do you get reliable,
consistent, renewable
source of signups.
Something that you
don't have to recreate
the wheel every time.
Something that you know,
that you'll always have this
steady flow of signups can be
different in every company,
different in every project.
And we'll sort of talk
about it in a moment.
Uh, what that was for me.
Uh, the second thing
was turbo boosts.
and this, this is kind of
a lot of the time, people
who don't really understand
marketing or maybe have worked
with lesser marketers, this is
what they think marketing do.
It's like, okay, we've shipped
a feature, go and write a
blog or do some paid ads, and
that's what marketing does.
Or send a blast email.
especially product marketing
like it's, we do a bit
more, we do a bit more than
Elle: Oh my gosh.
And then you have these mar
leaders from other other
partner segments and they're
like, we need marketing.
We need where the,
where's the marketing?
And they're, that's exactly
what they're expecting.
Blogs and ads.
John: that's it.
And again, but this is
a really useful way.
It's like, Yeah, they
are valid tactics.
You know, things like
paid ads or events or
whatever it might be.
But they belong in a category,
you know, if, if you're
a good product manager,
you're sort of looking
at the holistic customer
journey and turbo boost.
Are just one off things.
They're just things
that will work, but they
take a lot of energy and
it's not always gonna be
the best path for you.
The third part of the
race car was the fuel.
And this is whatever keeps
the growth running long term.
And for us, that was actually
the craft and the practice
of product management.
And then the last one was
lubricants, which is a gross
word, but really useful in
this, uh, in this context.
It's basically
whatever friction is
stopping the growth.
And this is probably the
most common mistake that we
make, uh, as, as marketers
as businesses, is that
we fill leaky bucket.
You know, we're so obsessed
with the top of the funnel.
We just keep getting people
in there and then they churn
out and putting all of these
things into the growth.
Uh, the race car growth
framework allowed me to
sort of put it in front of
this audience of C-Suites
and show them what we are
trying to do and what we
are trying to achieve, uh,
with a longer term vision.
Elle: Yeah, I love that.
Um, and I wanna dig more
into the race car framework
itself, so I, and I think
we'll do that once we get
into the playbook part
of this conversation.
so here you've got the
playbook, uh, or the
race car framework that
you've broken out and
aligned to your vision.
You've put it together
in these loom videos.
You've got the buy-in,
you go through execution.
What happened in the end?
John: So in the end, success
you'll be, you'll be glad to
know, uh, I, we, we survived.
and like I, I, I put all
the tactics into the race
car growth framework.
I updated every week.
We used a tool, um, which is
kinda like Twitter for work.
You'd embed a Loom video and
it'd be like a four or five
minute video every week.
Where you go through, you
talk through how things are
going, you would, show the
different tactics that you
have within each segment.
And eventually you start
to show the outcomes from
each one, which is the
most important thing.
So it doesn't just come across
as like a fluff, you know,
you're actually doing things
and you're achieving things.
And in the end?
we launched your
product discovery.
It became the fastest
growing, product in
Atlassian history, I think.
And, yeah, it was, it
was a great success.
Elle: I love it.
Yeah.
So you didn't end up
losing your job afterwards,
wasn't your last day?
Okay, so now let's say
that I'm a PMM who needs
to take a product that's
stagnant, not growing,
um, or I, I am, have a new
product that's coming out.
let's outline the steps
that I would need to take
that's mirroring everything
that you did following
that, uh, race car framework
from start to finish.
What would step one be?
How would I get started?
John: Yeah.
for sure.
So look, it's,
we're talking about.
Had a product launch here,
but it works just as well
for a feature launch, even
for picking up stagnant
growth, whatever it might be.
Step one is simple and
you know, there's, there
may be listeners out
there that going, this is
a picture of a race car.
This is very simple stuff.
That's the point.
This is first principle stuff
because it's a noisy world
being a product marketer.
It's a very, very noisy
world and there's a
lot of shiny things.
There's a lot of expectations
and just making sure that
you've set your goal.
And have that really clear,
whatever tactic it is
that you're working on,
ladder it up to that goal.
I have a habit of just
whatever page I'm working on.
If it's like a, a strategy
page or a scrap, whatever
it is, like just the top of
the page, I have a thing.
What is the goal that
I'm laddering up to?
And if it doesn't serve
that goal, gone kill it.
So that's
Elle: Okay.
What a good habit and
obviously natural step.
First step is to identify
the goal or set the goal, and
then what comes after that.
John: Know thy audience.
Um, I was just listening to
your Nova, podcast actually
in the car this morning.
And this is, I know this is a
big topic of the conversation,
but obsess over your audience.
I mean, I was really lucky
with Jira product discovery.
It had a really clean ICP
really clean, um, customer
profile of product managers.
And I just read
everything that.
they read.
I talked to three or four,
uh, product managers a
week, whether they were
using the product or not.
I.
deeply understood
their problems and that
raid the rest of my
life so much easier.
Elle: Yeah, so we talk
a lot about as product
marketers wearing the
customer's shoes, and really
empathizing with them.
And I think it can be
really easy for product
marketers especially.
Product marketers who've
been in an industry for a
long time to kind of rely
on their gut instead of
doing the homework, doing
the effort, putting in the
effort to talk to customers,
interview customers.
okay, so once you
align on customers,
what's the next step?
How do you, you know, kind
of go into the next phase?
John: Yeah, so this is maybe
the most important phase?
experiments is step three.
so, you can put what you want
into your marketing tactics
and then you put it into your
race car growth framework.
You tell the story,
that's awesome.
But to actually make
it scientific, to make
it actually work, you
gotta get into your
sort of scientist mode.
let me give you sort of a,
a pragmatic example from
to your product discovery.
When we were looking for
our growth engine, so what
would be our renewable
source of signups?
Um, I started doing a bunch
of tests and I was like,
okay, could it be SEO?
I was like, it's a, I don't
think we have the patience.
No, there's not many
startups that can sort
of win in the SEO game.
Could it be sales?
No.
It's too cheap.
What we realized was we
knew that there was product
managers already within Jira.
They're working in there.
We knew that they had
issues in there and that
they were trying to do
a lot of their product,
product management work in
a tool that wasn't built
for it or in spreadsheets.
And we knew that we could
cross sell them from big
Jira as it was called, into
this new product that was
specially built for them.
But the early tests
hadn't really worked.
You know, like email blasts
were okay, you know, if
the messaging resonated,
they would sort of sign up.
But not in huge droves
in product nudges.
Kind of worked because,
you know, it's, it's a
fairly simple problem.
Here's a, here's a tool.
At the time it was free.
Give it a try.
But again, it wasn't something
that was gonna work when
it became a paid tool.
So we had to really experiment
around different surfaces
in Jira, and we took like
small percentages of the
customer user base, and we
would introduce nudges to
the right person at the right
time with the right messaging.
And what we wanted to
get back from that was
just a renewable source.
And that's exactly
what happened.
So we, we started
to figure this out.
We had like a big, uh,
confluence page or Google Docs
where on the left hand side
you had all of these different
experiments that we would
run on the right hand side.
It was the results.
And this is the kind of thing
that really does two things.
One, it helps you build
your personal brand because
all marketers should be
sort of deep business
people and deeply within
the product as well.
But two, it gives you, um.
I suppose the air cover that
you need, leadership can
see that you're not just
making these, you're not just
throwing spaghetti against the
wall and seeing what sticks.
You're being really, really
careful and picking and
choosing what you're gonna do.
So experiments probably
the most important
step in all this.
Elle: Yeah.
So on the experiments, how did
you know which ones to run?
And I'm sure all of that
experimental phase probably
took quite some time It's
funny because it's like a
race, race car analogy, but
I'm picturing like, a real
blueprint of a race car
and you kind of standing
there and pointing it at
different parts of which,
which areas are leaking and
which ones are need repair.
Right.
How did you go into
diagnosing that?
You needed to run an
experiment on SEO, for
example, like what were
some triggers that you
identified to do that?
John: lots of
different things.
I'll give you two examples.
So one is.
Signing up to the product.
Right.
That's, I know it sounds
simple and stupid again,
but I sign up to my
product in Postman.
I do it once a week.
Every Monday I sign up
and I go through the flow
in geo product discovery.
I signed up, as different
personas and, you know, yeah.
So
Elle: truly wearing
the customer's shoes.
John: Yeah, I was wearing,
I was wearing their sneakers
and their, their high
heels and, and various
different kinds, various
different kinds of food.
And what I realized was
that if you're not an admin
in Jira, you couldn't get
access to the product easily.
You had to request access.
And then it was this really
convoluted loop and we,
when I sort of kept diving
deeper and deeper and deeper
into it, I realized that we
were losing like a massive
percentage of people who were
putting their hands up and
saying, let me in, let me in.
But we couldn't hear anybody
knocking on the door.
So that was one of the ways
that we just experimented.
We're like, okay, well what
if we just made this easier?
And that just opened
the flood gates.
the second is talking
to the customer.
So they would, uh, I, I
would just talk to them
like, tell me how, how do
you do, like, you know, your
product discovery at the
moment, how do you choose
which features to build?
And they show me these
like Jira backlogs
with 723 items on it.
and I was like, wow, okay.
That's, that's painful.
And.
So it's like, okay, this
is, this is the right time,
this is the right person,
this is the right time.
When they're going through
their backlog, if they have
more than X amount of items
and they're trying to go
through, and it was usually
at the end of a sprint as well
when you dig into the data.
So I was like, okay, that's
the best part first, the best
time for us to reach them.
So it's, yeah, it's
just digging in.
It is just understanding
their problems.
Elle: And you are really able
to pinpoint to you as exactly
you said the right message at
the right time, you know, on
the right channel, et cetera.
You know what it sounds like,
as you were explaining this
investigation work that you
did, you literally followed
the customer journey.
Everything from, you know,
you mentioned SEO earlier
in the conversation, right?
Like how they're discovering
the product all the
way through conversion.
And through to adoption.
That's such a healthy
exercise and I think not
a lot of pmms that I've.
Meant anyway, if, if they
know to do it, they don't
know how to do it, they don't
have the resources to do it.
which is why they should
be doing the race car
framework to get buy-in, to
get the resources to do it.
but uh, my question for you
is, was that intentional?
Like did you actually map
out that customer journey as
part of preparation for the
experiment or, or is that
kind of just happy accident?
John: No, it was, it was
definitely intentional.
Um, and I was quite
lucky the, the head of
products and myself, he
was in as much into the.
The marketing side of
things as I was into the
product side of things, and
honestly, I think that's
when the best partnerships
happen with PM and PMM.
Like when you just blur
the lines, you know
like you have a shared
brain, but each of you
then focuses on your craft.
It's like, okay, now I get it.
I'm gonna go off and come up
with creative ad ideas and
he's gonna go off and actually
implement some growth ideas.
But you both need to be
sort of looking at the
same thing because like a
customer can tell, you can
tell when you use a consumer
product or whatever it is,
when a product is being
built and then thrown over
to marketing and it's just
inconsistent, it's painful.
Elle: Yeah, completely agree.
So, um, once you have
all this great data from
these experiments and this
analysis and the customer
conversations, what do you do
with all of that information?
What's the next
step in the process?
John: Yeah, so
that's the race car.
That's when you get to get
your pretty pictures out.
and you know, my, my
recommendation when you
go through is to have no
more than say two or three
tactics within each bucket.
So one or two in
the growth engine.
Maybe two or three in the
Turbo Boost and so forth,
because it keeps it,
again, it does two things.
It makes it easily
digestible for that sort
of C-suite audience and,
and the rest of the people
around the business.
But two, it keeps
you focused as well.
Like how often have you, you
know, been working l as well
and you're sort of, I dunno,
two a few days passed and
you're like, hang on a minute.
Why, why am I working
on the landing
page for something else?
Elle: the time.
John: Oh, too often.
So it really just
keeps you focused.
The goal at the top,
you've got your race, car,
everything ladders up,
everything serves that.
Elle: I love the healthy
goal of the goal at the top.
I'm gonna steal that one.
That's a good one.
okay, so once you've built
the race car framework, how
do you make sure that the
rest of the company actually
gets behind it and then not
just like, you know, kind of
just nodding along 'cause they
don't know what else to say.
John: Yeah.
well I was lucky in some ways.
So Atlassian is an a
distributed company.
I think first, um, I'm
in Australia despite
the weird Irish accent.
the team that I was managing
And leadership were all in the
states in various different
places, and the product team
were in Europe, so it was
actually quite nicely set up.
We have, as I said earlier
on, we have this, uh, had
this product called Atlas,
which you can do your
updates every week and then
out in bed and Loom video.
And everybody would watch it.
Um, it became a bit of a,
a story, you know It was,
it was became fun for me.
I was like, okay, this
week we focus completely
on the growth engine and we
ran these two experiments.
One was a disaster,
one was a victory.
We're gonna
implement that one.
Here's the outcome.
And you just sort of
bring people along.
And then you say, next
week what we're gonna do is
focus on the turbo boost.
We're gonna send an email
blast to certain segment.
We'll let you know how
it goes, and people
would follow it.
Like some sort of a, uh,
I don't know, a corporate
Elle: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Elle: Yeah.
And you know what I've learned
in my career, anytime I
would, um, I didn't do it,
obviously, I, because I had
never come across the race
car framework until I met you.
Um, and I'm so glad
that that happened.
But, what I would
do though is share.
I, I've definitely run
experiments and I would.
Share that with
my stakeholders.
Hey, I'm gonna run this
experiment and then follow
up, you know, sometime
later to say, Hey, remember
when I said we are gonna
run this experiment?
Here's what we learned and
here's what we're gonna
do with the information.
I've found that when my
stakeholders get excited
about the experiment,
sometimes before I'm ready
to share the results, they
proactively come and ask.
Hey, how did that thing go?
Hey, what was the
performance on that?
and then the second thing
that I was gonna mention to
that, and I'm curious if this
happened to you, when you
do that follow up, when you
do well, both, both steps.
First tell them, Hey,
here's the experiment
I'm gonna run and then
do the follow up and say.
Here were the results.
It builds a lot of trust
with those stakeholders.
So now in the future, you've
earned credibility that you
know what you're doing, you're
strategic, you've got the
goal at the top of the page,
so they can count on you
to do the best work needed.
Um, but curious, you know,
if you've had seen similar
things with that earning
trust and credibility with
your internal stakeholders.
John: Yeah.
YI think you hit the, the,
the nail on the head there
and, uh, you know, again,
listening to your episode
with, with Hattie, the PMM
and sort of selling yourself
internally, that's, that's
kind of what happened.
You know, I became
known as the race car
guy, uh, which is.
Better than sort of big bushy
eyebrow guy or whatever.
Um, and it, it did buy
me a lot of freedom.
It sort of, it bought me the
freedom with this product
and once I'd sort of finished
the project and was looking
for my next challenge,
it made it much easier.
I was like, okay, I
have kind of the freedom
to, to go around and
pick and choose this.
So you know, for the product
itself, I think we got
a lot more patience than
maybe the other products
in the accelerator did.
Obviously you need to have a
beautiful product, something
that people love, but
there's a lot more to it.
I've seen great products
fold that I knew could have
a future if they'd just
given a bit more time and if
they had a bit more vision.
Elle: Yeah.
Got it.
Okay.
So once you have all that
buy-in from leadership and
stakeholders, what comes next?
If you mentioned, you know,
you had these frequent, um,
you know, updates that you
would send out, is there
more to the story here?
John: No, that was
pretty much it.
I mean, the rice
car, it serves you as
long as you need it.
And for me it was probably
about three or four months,
because I think it took
maybe about a year from
start to end to sort of say,
okay, we have successfully
launched the product.
The growth is fantastic.
Uh, the churn is low,
the CS SAT's really high,
so we used it as a, as
a vehicle, pun intended.
Um, oh God.
You can delete that one.
Um.
Elle: I'm not keeping it.
John: My kids will kill me.
and you know, we, we
served it for as long as
it needed to do, but once
it was done, that was it.
There wasn't much more needed.
Leadership, just,
they trust you.
They, they, they trusted
where we were going.
They knew that we
had a great product.
They knew that we had
great distribution.
They knew that we had
an aligned vision and
they left us alone.
They left us to execute on it.
And anytime that we needed
help, whether it was sort
of budget or people and
resources, we were much
more likely to get it.
We grew the team
pretty quickly.
Elle: That's great.
And I have a question
about the videos that you
would send out though.
Uh, weekly videos, I think
you said they were weekly
anyway, um, however often
you would send them out.
and this may be unique
to the situation that you
were in, but how did you
structure those updates?
And did you have any call to
action for the stakeholders
who received the updates?
And I'm asking because.
I have been in
situations where I'm
updating stakeholders.
I'm sure lots of pmms
have felt this in
various organizations.
I send an email or an update.
I have never sent a video,
so maybe that's something
I could try, but I've
sent a written update and
usually I'll get a response.
Sometimes I get crickets.
Like no response.
Leaders will usually respond
senior leaders, but if I'm
trying to speak to maybe like
a mid middle manager, you
know, director level person,
sometimes they don't respond.
So what would you do
if they didn't respond?
Sorry, that was a lot of
questions, but let let me
know what you think and
what your thoughts are.
John: no to be, to be honest.
In some ways no response
was a good thing.
You know, you'd get in,
in the Loom videos, you'd
get like a thumbs up or
like a quick comment from.
Yeah.
like I, that's, you
know, smiley face.
I was pretty informal.
with all my videos, I would
crack the same terrible
jokes that I'm doing now.
I rarely had a CTA if
we needed something we
would just directly ask.
But what I would do, you know,
like, like any brand, it's a
bit of repetition involved.
So, for example, I
might say, Hey, this
week we're working on.
Uh, we're working on this,
this part of the, the
Turbo Boost or whatever.
we can't work on this one
because we only have a team.
It was just me and one
other guy on the team
at the, at that time.
So it was like, you know,
if we had more people,
uh, then we could do more.
And it was a nice way
to just sort of keep on
showing that momentum, the
product is growing, but hey,
we need some more people
to support us as well.
So I kind of use it as a, as
a way to sort of build, um,
I don't know, a bit of noise
around how we needed more
support, more budget, and um,
Elle: Yeah.
John: we ever had an ask,
we would just ask directly.
Elle: Yeah.
Okay.
And one more super tactical
follow up question.
When you were doing like the,
maybe like the beginning of
the video, this is what I'm
imagining you're saying, okay,
today we're working on, you
know, gonna tell you about
the turbo boost, da da da dah.
Do you have to reeducate
on what that means, or
were they was everyone, you
know, so plugged in that
they know exactly what it
means when you say Turbo
boost because they've been
following along for, you
know, however many weeks.
John: a great question.
Yeah,
so I I would, I did it so
long in Atlassian after a
while and it was, you know,
the same sort of audience
of, of 40 leaders mostly,
or, or peers, um, that I
didn't need to, but generally
it is a good tip to do.
But what I, you know,
after the first few times
of sharing it, I remember
the CMO sort of re like.
Commenting on it to the head
of accelerators saying, I
think we should codify this.
This is something that we
should do for all product
launches.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was nice.
It's always, it's always,
uh, reassuring on, on
those Friday afternoons
when you get the comments.
Um, and that, that's, that's
quite, you know, it's quite
nice they're saying like,
this is, you can never predict
what the growth of a product
is gonna be, but you could
certainly put tactics into
your growth engine and then
have a, a good, um, knowledge
like this base of all of
these experiments that we've
run and the growth and it's
just a really nice way to
sort of build something that.
can be done.
again.
Elle: Yeah.
Right.
Okay.
So once you get the race
car in motion, just to
go with that, I'm just
piling on the punts.
When are you considered done?
You know, at what point do you
look back and say, all right,
our work here is finished.
John: Yeah, look, technically
the launch, you know, we got
to ga uh, the growth even
before then, before we had
even put pricing and packaging
in was, was fantastic.
It got better again.
Um, but it reminds me
that this is something
I learned years ago.
It's that like a Napoleon
quote of all people
where it says, um, I.
can't remember what it
is, but, uh, something
like the most dangerous,
the most dangerous
moment comes at victory.
And it's so true.
Like we had launched it and
in some ways we were kind of
victims of our own success.
It had grown so dramatically
and so quickly, and
it had gotten traction
from enterprises and
really what we had done
was built this really.
Streamlined PLG motion and
the minute that launch came
was like, okay, we really
need to catch up now and build
a sales motion around this
and sort of start appealing
to, to enterprises as well.
So that's kind of when the
race car growth framework
had served its purpose
and it was time to move
into a the next phase.
Elle: I love that.
Okay, well, real quick
follow up question to that.
You mentioned that you had to
build a sales motion to handle
the enormous, tremendous
amount of interest you had.
Could you not apply the
race car framework also
to like, like create a
new one or a new story or
whatever it new strategy?
Using the race car framework,
could, would it, could it
still apply or is the race
car framework really only for
like product related goals,
product launches, et cetera?
John: Yeah.
that's a good question.
I never, I never really tried.
That's the truth of it when
it came to the sales side.
I, I'll, you know, to
be, to be blunt, I'm a,
I'm a PLG guy through and
through the sales side is,
is less interesting to me.
I, I always try
to delegate it.
But, uh, I think it could
probably work, but I
feel like it works better
for PLG because it's
just a bit more complex.
There's a lot of sort of
nuances when it comes to
it, and I think it's a
good way to wrap it all up.
Elle: Got it.
Helpful.
Well, either way, I am
genuinely excited to try
this out for myself, so I
might hit you up for some
tips as I'm deploying it.
Um, okay.
So I wanna fast forward
now in your career.
So you're at Postman now.
Really quickly, um, tell
us what is Postman for
anyone who doesn't know, and
hopefully I'm saying it right.
Um, and then more
importantly, how did you
apply that same framework
in your current role?
John: Yeah, for sure Postman.
Awesome company.
Uh, a quick pitch as well.
We're hiring, including
product marketing, so if
anybody's interested in
hearing these jokes daily,
come on, come on board.
Um.
Uh, it's Postman's an API
collaboration platform.
So basically everything across
the entire API lifecycle
design, documentation,
testing, and so on.
Uh, I've been over here
at Postman for just about
a year now, which is,
which is unbelievable.
and one of the first projects
that I had going in there,
which was kind of a nice
way to dip my toes in the
water was Postman templates.
and to give a little bit of
context here as well, uh.
You know, there's a, a sort
of misperception with Postman
that it's just a basic testing
tool when it actually takes
care of the whole life cycle.
And part of the fun of the
job is changing minds about
that bit by bit templates,
really effective way to do
that, um, to sort of say,
Hey, backend devs, you can
use the following 10 templates
to do your design or your
mocks, whatever it might be.
And it was a similar
situation, okay?
It wasn't as high stakes
and it wasn't CEOs.
It wasn't like a
hundred million dollar
a RR sort of thing.
But it was still
something that I wanted
to do in the right way.
And, um, I could have just,
you know, done the usual,
done an email blast or, put
paid ads and be super targeted
towards all these personas.
But again, we wanted to
build a long-term vision.
We wanted to find a growth
engine so that once, you
know, attention moved on
to another project, we had
this reliable source of
traffic, reliable source of
signups going to templates.
So really it used it
in the exact same way.
Um, I made a few
changes to it because.
Um, there was parts that were
more relevant, but again,
we identified the growth
engine, which in our case
was closer to SEO because we
had so many, sort of, so much
share of voice in the market.
Uh, we identified
the turbo boosts.
We identified pretty similar
friction in the, in the
signup flow where people
weren't getting in as
quickly as we could have had.
So very, very similar.
the only difference really
was that it was a shorter,
shorter time need and maybe
did about, uh, three weeks
of race car growth framework,
just helping to build that
vision and give that patience.
Elle: Oh wow.
Okay.
So you mentioned a couple
of, um, differences already,
but is there anything maybe
more specific, um, or not
more specific, but anything
that you might call out as
you were building or applying
that race car framework
between Postman and Jira, um,
and just anything you'd call
out that pmms should look
out for if they're trying to
apply this framework in their
roles that, you know, maybe
surprised you as you were
going about it the second time
in a totally new environment.
John: no, I mean, I think
the best advice I can give
is to treat it like a, a
pick and mix, uh, shop.
I don't know if you
have that in America.
It's like where you go and
you pick your own sweetss,
put them into a bag and then
Elle: Oh yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
John: I thought we
were the only ones.
Um, it's not like
there's a lot to it,
so you don't need it.
There's all of these
different tactics and
depending on the company
you're in, the project,
the product, the feature,
it's gonna be different
things that you choose.
So the first thing is just
make sure you sort of.
You know, don't do everything.
Keep it small.
And the second thing is, um,
have a bit of fun with it.
You know, it's like for,
for whatever reason, when
we get into the B2B world
in particular things, you
know, you start getting
very, like sitting upright
and getting very formal and
you get a bit afraid to use
things like metaphors and
frameworks and storytelling.
But honestly, in the era
that we're entering, uh,
the, the great AI era,
these soft skills are
more important than ever.
Um, and that ability to
bring people along for
the ride, that's something
that's only gonna need to
be improved over the years.
Elle: Yeah, I
completely agree.
And while we're on the
subject of ai, question
around how you applied the
framework with AI tools.
I guess like if you, did
you do that at Postman?
Did you do it at Jira?
Or if you didn't, why?
John: First of all, I
can't believe we got 40
minutes into A-A-P-M-M
conversation with that ai.
Elle: Proof that it's
not the focus of every
single conversation.
John: Um, yeah, to be honest,
I'm, I'm gonna be a bit
contrarian with this one.
Um, because if I could go
back in time and AI wasn't
really, in fact, I don't
think chat PT had even been
launched at that point.
I wouldn't have used anything.
and it's for two reasons.
I, I think.
One, and I've, I've caught
myself doing this recently,
being a bit too dependent
and not doing enough
thinking, and I'm, see, I've
seen some stats recently
that's proven this out.
People have stopped thinking,
they're just leaning
way too heavily on ai.
And it's, it's, it'd be, it's
like the equivalent of going
to the gym and watching people
work out while you just drink.
Uh,
Elle: Ew.
John: yeah.
Elle: Oh my.
I love that analogy,
but also so hate it.
John: It's creepy.
Yeah, that's, that's my.
Elle: Which is ai.
AI is creepy.
John: AI is creepy.
It is, and you need to do
the reps. You know, you
just, you need to go in
and I needed to just use
those, you know, those
few brain calories that I.
have to really think
through the problem and
work through the problem.
AI can't talk to customers.
For you, it can take
notes for you, but it
misses the nuances.
It misses the look
in their eyes.
It can't go through and sign
up for the product for you and
do all of this stuff for you.
It can't tell a story.
It can't make jokes.
It can't connect you
to the other humans
around the business.
So I think AI, for me, comes
in a little later in the game.
It can augment
what you've built.
It can augment the
foundational stuff,
but get the first
principles right first.
Then bring ai and don't let it
do too much for you too early.
Elle: Yeah, another helpful
reminder that it's okay.
To not use AI when everyone
else is telling you to use ai.
John: Yeah.
Elle: Um, okay.
So last question for you,
and you kind of addressed a
little bit of this already
when I asked you the question
about like applying the
framework in a new, in a
new environment, but if
you had one piece of advice
to give a product marketer
who is, you know, trying
to uplevel their product
growth, what would it be?
John: Stop sprinting
for a minute.
And really take the time to
know the product better than
anybody else in the business.
Learn it.
Do the courses, talk
to solution engineers.
Talk to anybody.
You can know it so,
so, so deeply, um, that
you're just unstoppable.
Couple that with knowing
your customer and talking
to them on a regular basis.
And the rest is just fun.
The rest is just
like, it's incredible.
It's like a silver bullet.
The customers tell you.
Exactly what to say.
Their messaging is almost
what exactly what you can
put on landing pages in
webinars and everything else.
Um, so that's
probably what I say.
Know the product and know the
customer better than anybody.
You'll be unstoppable.
Elle: Isn't our job
as product marketers.
So fun.
We get to just talk to
people and then basically
tell their stories
as part of our job.
It's amazing.
John: yeah.
I love it.
Elle: Alright, well thank
you so much for, um, sharing
that deep case study with us
and the race car framework.
So excited to try
it out myself.
I wanna switch gears a
little bit and jump into the
second segment of our show.
This is the messaging
critique, and this is where
we as product marketing
experts get to analyze
real world messaging.
And the fun part is,
John is my guest.
You get to pick the
company that we critique.
before we get started, just
some quick ground rules for
you and anyone who's new to
this segment of the show.
So you're gonna reveal
the company we're gonna
critique, and then we're
gonna talk about three things.
First, what you're loving
about the product or the
messaging itself and you know
what's working really well.
And then second, something
you wish the PMM would've
done differently or
considered differently in
creating the messaging.
And then lastly, we will
iterate on what's there and
do a quick, fun brainstorm.
for the, those pmms out
there, uh, for that company
and of how they can take
it to the next level.
Ready to jump in.
Okay.
Okay.
So what is the company that
we are analyzing today?
John: I'm gonna sound like
a hypocrite here after my AI
speech, but I'm going with.
Elle: I, I love it.
Um, okay, so lovable.
I am pulling up the website.
There's multiple lovable
websites out there,
so I think most people
know what lovable is.
But if you guys wanna
follow along, make sure
you're doing the right one.
It's L-O-V-A-B-L-E de V. Is
that the right one, John?
John: That's the one.
Elle: Okay.
So give us a quick summary
for anyone who maybe knew
what is lovable who is it for?
John: So, um, I am actually
a hardcore AI user just
at the right time and.
Lovable is the fastest
growing software startup ever,
which is quite incredible.
I think it's made a hundred
million a RR within its first
year, which is mind blowing.
It's a AI based website
creator, so you can build
basically anything, websites,
landing pages, apps,
and so on from scratch.
You just need to use prompts.
You don't need to
know how to code.
it's kind of, I suppose,
one of the main tools that
have birthed this phrase
of, uh, vibe coding.
Um, so you don't need to
know how to code, but it's
certainly helpful if you can.
Elle: Right.
Okay.
And as you, started to analyze
lovable messaging, what
really stood out for you?
John: so I, I was, yeah.
I love this segment in your
podcast, and I remember I
was listening to a few of
your early episodes and
I, and going through this.
Yeah, it's, it's super fun.
I.
love to do it.
I just hope nobody ever does
my page is the only thing.
Uh, like what, what, what's
great is lovable audience that
they're going after is the
99% of the world that can't
code or don't code everybody.
Right.
Uh, that, yeah,
that, That's me.
for sure.
And can, I can imagine sort
of sitting down, you're
like, okay, so we can do
anything for everyone.
And you can imagine what
a bad team could do to a
landing page with that.
You know, just like a
very vanilla B2B busy
page with just stuff
Elle: Because we don't, I
don't know best practices
on any every single little
thing that I wanna build.
So if I were gonna go
build a website, I'm not an
expert on building websites.
I have an opinion, but I'm
probably gonna miss some
best practices 'cause that's
not my core competency.
John: Yes.
Yes, exactly right.
And I,
I think despite the,
the fact that they could
do anything, it's such
a simple landing page.
It, it's like, it's like
when Google came in and
replaced Yahoo, well, not
replaced, sorry, Yahoo.
No offense.
And they, you know, Yahoo
had these crazy busy
page, and then Google
was just like, ask.
So simple and lovable
have done the same here.
And that, that's one
of the things I love.
Just so simple.
They have like the suggested
prompts scrolling across
the screen and the H two in
particular is really specific.
You can tell that it
probably wasn't written
by a marketer 'cause it
just says what it does.
It says create apps and
websites by chatting with ai.
I just love the simplicity
and the specificity.
and then I think what makes
lovable and why I chose
this one in particular.
Is I I. But we're moving
from a world where B2B
in particular, it's
like, okay, what can I
do with your product?
And we're moving to a
world where it's, what can
this product do for me?
You know, we have agents
that go in and they can
actually do things for you.
Same and postman,
things that you used
to have to do manually.
Now the agent can just
go in, do your tests, do
your documentation, and
I think lovable are the
ones sort of leading that.
And the messaging all leans
quite heavily into that.
It's like, you know, ask
not what we can do for you,
but what we can do together.
I love that.
Elle: I completely agree.
And what a good observation.
I never thought about it
like that, but I think
you're spot on with that,
um, with that observation.
So something else that I
just really resonates with
me, clearly I'm part of
the target audience 'cause
I'm loving what I'm seeing.
I like that they are leaning
into the human nature of
wanting to create, I mean
all, whether you say you're
creative or not, like.
We all love creating things.
We create spreadsheets,
we create stories, we
create dinners, meals
like we love creating.
So, I like that they're
like leaning into that
part of human nature.
It makes something so
technical, like an AI
tool that can literally
build a website.
It makes it feel a little
bit more, approachable,
if that makes sense.
So, yeah, it really
resonates with me.
Uh, okay.
So what's something that
you think the pmms should
have considered differently?
John: I think so the one
thing that you can suffer
from looking at this is
that blank canvas problem.
and I think they've answered
that to a degree with the
sort of scrolling prompts
saying, you know, ask me to
build a landing page aspect.
Beneath that, they have the
community, um, which is great.
You could sort of take other
people's projects and remix
them yourself, which is.
Something we've seen in,
uh, in other products like
notion, it works really well.
I think maybe what's missing
for me, uh, two things is,
you know, they aren't the
only horse in this race.
There's other products that
are pretty close, like Bolt,
and I'd kind of wanna see
a little bit of fomo, like,
this is the fastest growing
software over, why should I
choose this one over another?
Um, I think that's, that's one
thing that would really help.
I think that, and I
believe that this website
itself was built with
lovable just by prompts.
I feel like that would
be just like a fun little
thing to have in a corner
built with lovable.
So you're like, oh,
Jesus, it's actually
like a, you know, a
proper enterprise tool.
Something I can use for work.
and maybe.
it's hard.
I, I think, I think
the third thing is
just how does it work?
You know, you can go in
and you can do it yourself,
but I think just a quick
video or like a, a product
walkthrough or even just a
watch demo or something like
that would really benefit
because even though this
is a no code thing, I still
reckon from talking to a
few friends, they're like,
Yeah, seen it, but I haven't
really made the jump yet.
And I reckon a little nudge
just to show how it works.
How you just prompt and
then just prompt again and
prompt again and improve.
Um, that will, that's magic.
Because when I first did it
and I got my eureka moment
when I built like a, I built
like a netball landing page
for my daughter to show her
all the fixtures from her.
It's, and when we did it
together, it took 12 minutes.
so I, I become an evangelist.
I go around telling everybody,
and the more people do that,
the faster growth will be.
Elle: Yeah, so you, you hit on
something that I don't see in,
at least in their homepage.
And listen, I'm not like,
I, as I already said, I'm
not like a web designer,
web builder, and we're not
here to critique, you know,
the website on its own.
But I think you hit on
something that would speak
to the persona and that
that's like the time that
you can do as to your point.
What can you do for me and in
what timeframe can you do it?
It's one thing to be able
to completely outsource,
you know, building a website
that I obviously cannot do.
But it's another thing
if you can also do that
in like 15 minutes.
I have no idea how
long it actually takes.
Maybe it takes an hour,
maybe it takes two.
I've no idea.
But, 'cause I've never
done that with lovable.
But to give an
idea of how long.
Some of these things or
actions might take, um,
to solve some of that, you
know, time to market, you
know, issue or, you know,
I, that I can imagine be
part of it for some of this.
And I think that might
help with some of the
fomo that, you know, the
fastest growing, right?
Like first to do X, um.
John: Yeah.
Elle: Yeah, I really
like that part.
Okay.
So you mentioned
a couple of ideas.
How would you take it to
the next level or what, you
know, what are some creative
ideas that you have for
the lovable marketing team?
John: So well this,
this is, uh, yeah.
The funny thing is they
don't have a marketing team?
I know that as well.
I, I follow, I follow
'em pretty closely.
They
Elle: Wow.
I'm pretty impressed.
I'm pretty impressed.
This is pretty, this
is pretty good for not
having a marketing team.
Well
John: Yeah,
Elle: I like it.
John: I think, I think they
just hired their, at their
first, their first marketing
as, as far as I know.
But, um, there
there's not that much.
It's, you know, a lot of the
time the magic comes from
subtraction, not addition.
And there, there are certainly
things that would change,
but they're relatively minor.
Rather, I, I would get outside
into the real world and, um.
I think they have
an opportunity to do
things very differently.
So let's say for example,
every other product in the
world has a, a conference
where folks go and they listen
to keynotes and whatever.
I feel like they have
an opportunity to do
something different.
Um, like let's say instead
of a conference, they have
a world cup of builders.
Um, people fly in.
There's two days where
everybody can team up and they
can build things together.
And they can put them
into the real world.
You can sort of go through
having a voting thing.
It can become like a
worldwide fun, uh, event.
You can get to see which one
of these products, like maybe
the next year you have the
conference, you see which,
which of those ideas that
were built actually made money
and which one made the most.
It could become like this
super fun moment, kinda like
a Spotify rap vibe where
you, uh, really get to see
really cool things being built
by the likes of you and me
who've always needed technical
co-founders to do so.
So I think there's a real
for them just to have a
marketing moment every year.
Elle: Yeah.
Leaning into the
community that they're
starting to build.
John: Yeah.
Big time.
Elle: I totally
agree with that.
And while I do really
appreciate the community and
them showcasing the community
on the homepage, I almost
feel like it, it kind of, it,
it makes it more confusing
'cause I'm like, wait a
minute, what are these things?
so it maybe just reorienting
some things to make that,
uh, you know, storytelling
a little bit easier.
And I love that idea
of trying something
different and going bold.
And that really aligns to
the moment that we're in.
Um, in this, in, in this AI
world that we're living in.
Um, so fun.
Well, well done, lovable,
considering you, at
least to our knowledge.
Don't have a marketing team
yet, or you're building one.
So it's pretty good stuff.
I'm, I'm pretty impressed
so far and we've got
some ideas for you.
So check it out.
Let us know what you think.
Okay.
So John, one thing that I
always like to make space for
on the podcast is a moment
of gratitude, because of
course, in product marketing,
none of us get here alone.
We're always copying
each other and building
on each other and
iterating along the way.
Um, so before we wrap up, I
just wanna say a heartfelt.
Thank you so much.
I know there's so much time
that goes into preparing
these episodes and, um, you
have a, you know, busy life
and I really appreciate you
taking the time to do that.
And the product marketing
community is very grateful.
So thank you.
I appreciate all of that.
Um, and now I wanna turn
it over to you would love
to hear some shout outs for
some pmms who have helped
shape you and, um, you know,
the role that you've had and
been able to be in today.
John: Yeah.
the, the ones you can
blame for shaping me.
Um, well, well first of all,
I'll spin it back to you.
I wanna say thank you
to you for having me on.
This has been fun, but you're
also doing a great service.
I feel like we don't have
enough, sort of, a good, good
podcast, good newsletters
and product marketing we do
for almost every other craft,
and I feel like we could
do with a lot more of it.
So.
Thank you.
and there's three other
people that'd love to, uh,
think we'll have the chance.
One is my old boss in
Atlassian, Claire Drummond.
She's, I remember sort of
starting and I was, you
know, scrappy startup guy.
And I remember just
the first meeting just
shouting ideas at her.
I was like, why do we do this?
Why do we do this?
And instead of her just
freaking out and, you know,
saying, okay, chill out, dude.
She sort of managed to
professionalize me and make me
work in an enterprise place.
And I, I sort of have
a lot to thank for her.
Um, second is my, my current
boss, Justine, um, who's the
head of marketing and postman.
Um, she's, I think, former
CMO, uh, used to refer
to her as someone who
leads with a, an iron
fist and a velvet glove.
And I feel like that's a
perfect description of her.
Um, so if you are thinking
about applying for a
Postman role, you'd
be working under her.
She's fantastic.
Uh, and the third, um, is
actually one of my, uh,
colleagues at the moment.
Uh, Eliza, she runs a company
called Launch Apac over here.
So, uh, American companies
that want to launch in APAC
without actually building out
a team, she takes care of.
Everything from
events and so on.
And she's kind of like my work
buddy here and she keeps me
sane, she keeps me smiling,
um, and I just wanna give a
big thanks to her as well.
Elle: I love that, you know,
there's really nothing, not
nothing, but there's not much
to co to that compares to
having really amazing partners
and mentors and leaders
that you get to work with.
It really does make all
the difference in terms of
the quality and motivation.
So,
John: It does.
Elle: so glad that
you have that.
John: Happy pm
m is a good pm m
Elle: That's right.
And my last question
for you, I promise.
Um, where is it best for
our audience to get access
to your, uh, expertise?
Is it best for everyone
to find you on LinkedIn?
John: yes, LinkedIn is
probably the best place to go,
so have a look for me there.
Elle: Awesome.
Well, thank you so
much again, John.
This was really fun.
And thank you PMM listeners
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take on the next step
in your own journey.