0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book 25 years of edtech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura pasquini.
0:15
Well, welcome to a bonus bonus episode of the podcast. I'm here with Martin Weller, and Clint Lalonde and I am excited to talk about the podcast. This is like the meta podcast. I think I was gonna blog about it. I was gonna blog about it, but I decided to do a podcast of it with the two of you all so thanks for joining me.
0:36
I view this is one of those those episodes of TV series really just make up of old clips. So remembering back on one of those freebie episodes,
0:49
I got a mash up I could I probably could if I was Yeah, you put me You're just giving me more work Martin No, not doing that.
0:56
Or like the after shows where they have a couple of the actors on that are talking about the actual show.
1:02
At least the outtakes bloopers is
1:05
it's true, I Well, we're gonna be when this comes out will be 13 episodes in. So that's kind of halfway. It's hard to 25. So I thought we'd get us together and talk about like, what are we learning? And what's happening? And? Yeah, what do you think about the podcast? Well, Martin, this is your book. So we've just taken it and run with it. So what do you think so far?
1:27
Yeah, I've been completely fascinated by it. You know, I think that the mix of the, the audiobook and then the podcast on the back of that has been really interesting to watch. I was saying to say to Laura, earlier, you know, when, when she said she was gonna do the podcast, I thought, who would want to listen to a podcast about my book, but it's been really fascinating. And I think that the ones I really liked are when people sort of use a lot to talk about the book at all, which is great. They don't just use it as a springboard to talk about their experiences and stuff. And it's, it's almost like becoming like a, an oral history of like, the past 35 years of a tech. I think that's brilliant. So it's been my I've been talking about it a lot a bit of work. So we produce were working, instruct education technology, we produce an annual report, the innovative pedagogy report, central minister podcast around this, because I think actually, that's, although we need that I think we need the central text as a kind of springboard to go off from there. But actually, I think the interesting dialogue capsule happens all around it, you know, we're definitely seen that.
2:25
Yeah, I agree. The between the chapters has really added to to, like, the original vision I had for the project was just to bring people together to read the chapters and create an audio book version of it, but between the chapters, has really added to to the whole project and allowed space for that dialogue to happen. And, you know, the the guests that you're getting on between the chapters, I mean, these are people who have lived these experiences, I was just thinking, you know, you had, you know, the people who are doing e learning standards at the time, were your guests, you know, was talking about e learning standards, and that that has just added so much and created that space to have those extra conversations around it to, to give some, I mean, give it an added dimension of dynamism to the to the book, and that this is this is living history that we're still working through today in our industry,
3:17
I think it really works well. So springboarding off the community approach we do to the audio book, so the audio book wasn't just me or you sort of narrating the whole thing, but having those different people come in and speak to it, as always sort of made a community around the book, then I think people are perhaps more willing to engage in the in the podcast and do the podcast, it's obviously growing things. I think that that approach to the audiobook, if you like kind of helped seed, the seed or kind of community that was already there to build upon as well.
3:43
Yeah, full disclosure, I've read the book. And it's going deeper with the people in the chapters like I didn't realize it until I was recording with Mark as dial I talked to him, I realized I was like, Oh my gosh, you're the one in this chapter holds up. You're the one who did all this thing. And so like it was really cool, because I'm meeting new people that I have loose ties or some connection or a tweet with for years. And we're having these conversations that we get into like, yeah, maybe the thing whether it's learning objects, but we're also talking about, like where we were in our lives, and what kind of experiences and talking to people from around the globe. It's just so vast and different and rich, and it's kind of cool to kind of open it up. Just other voices like so when you are sarcastic. And you say you want to have banter in a book club. That means you also volunteer yourself to do the thing, which I don't mind because it's actually a fun, I do say it's a labor of love, because I'm just having really enjoyable conversations that I'm learning from and then listening to afterwards and taking some of the show notes, which I didn't think people really cared about, but they're into it. It sounds like
4:47
Yeah, well we've received, you know, can you can you add the show notes to the to the website, you know, and I mean, the show notes that you put in two are an added extra layer. And I know you put a lot of effort into putting those show notes, too. Gather, you know, things that people bring up in, in the podcast, you know, you'll put put links to so that adds just another layer for people who want to go even deeper yet into some of the topics that are brought about in the book. I love that use the term loose ties, because I felt the same way. This is really an example of a good example of how loose tie strong tie connections can can happen, where you have these kind of network connections with people because I felt the same way reaching out to people in my network who I've had loose ties with for many, many years, but I never really had like kind of a tangible project to work with them on. And so reaching out to them and having them participate in this creates that strong tie connection and really just creates stronger connections with with my own network. So so you know, I'm selfishly getting something out of this as well. Being able to have that tangible project and create those strong ties with people.
5:55
Well, you know, the show notes aren't for you. It's for me, I'm just learning and I want to find these things. So like, secretly, podcasting is my conference, I go to it to like, professional develop, I talked with the people, I listened to it later. So I'm glad that you all are enjoying it. But really, those notes are for me. No, I love that we're putting this together as kind of, it's kind of like an archives and living and working space. And I know we have some listeners, I guess we'll give some quick, quick stats before we get into more of the touchy fields. So like, who's listening, Clint, we're looking at the back analytics here. Oh,
6:27
I should bring them up. While we're if we're actually want to talk about them. I think we're we've up to about 3000 downloads for the podcast and we have about 100 subscribers as best we can tell you I'm just pulling up the actual stats because I there is some some interesting analytics here. So far, it looks like vast not surprising, the vast majority of listeners are coming from Canada, the US and the UK equally about a third from each of those different regions. And then Australia, Mexico, Ireland, Germany, New Zealand are in there as well. So you know, we are having a it's, it's got a global reach. It's got people that are listening every week and people that are, you know, contributing on the hashtag, we've had some people writing some blog posts about it. And, you know, I try to amplify all of those things on the Twitter feed as they as they come up, and be able to, to push that out to other people to to be able to participate in the in the recordings as well.
7:30
Yeah, sorry. Those fingers pick up when people play it through Twitter, or something or I listen to my Twitter stream guy. And then so just click on play from the 25 years.
7:44
Yeah, it will pick up from the the this is through, we said transistor, and it through all the other things, however people share. I love that like a bonni stachowiak. And Ken Bauer also like tweet out quotes and I realized like I've made a I'm sheen of Was it the internet modem machine? I was like, I made that sound effect. Like I forget that I did these things. When people listen back and quote the things you say, dang it. They're so smart and clever. Those people?
8:14
Yeah, I can't tell from the stats about Twitter. I see what podcast players people are using. And by far Apple podcasts is, is the apple podcast and a desktop browser are the two most popular overcast is pretty popular as well. But I'm not seeing like a specific mention of Twitter. I'm not sure actually if if we're picking up Twitter, Twitter plays as well.
8:38
Yeah, it'll just play probably from the primary. I think it's going it's Apple's picks up transistors, stuff so and desktop, it says. So there's desktop browser, because you can listen as podcast just on a website. So if you pick it up on Twitter, or you just go to the link that someone tweets out or puts in their blog, we've embedded like an episode because a few people have been doing their own reflections after they've come on as a guest they've shared and they put you can embed this your own blog as well. Yeah, you can definitely play it stream it online on a website. So it could be your phone, tablet website, wherever you want is really what we're trying to get to um, and you've put these on the Athabaskan website as well, I've noticed they've come on with the book great. The not the between the chapters, but the episodes themselves. So what does that been like? Do you know anything about that?
9:25
I don't actually I should follow up with that the bass guy just I've just got a folder where I put the finished episodes and as they go in there, I think they add them onto the website. And actually, I haven't talked to Athabaskan since since before Christmas, about about where we are with stats so
9:42
I think for them it's been interesting as well, you know, because we had me it was their suggestion but with the Brian Mathers remix some of the art cover now we've got podcasts and audio book around it, and I'm sure they don't get that for most of their books that they've released wants to run with it. So I think, again, it's interesting from the publishers perspective that have whole context around a book on just the book itself.
10:05
Yeah, and for those, I'll give full disclosure, I work in this area that we talk about audio and the devices. That's my team I'm on. And we see from audible to just podcasts in general, Spotify, amazon music now as podcasts and all the devices that have come play, third party listening, we know that people are listening to things so the ecosystem of book meets audio, and that is just fascinating to me. So, hey, I'm just secretly playing this place this space to figure out more because I think it's going to continue to grow. Hey, Martin, I hear the next pipeline though, from audio is into TV production. Are you ready for that?
10:44
Okay. I think I feel it needs exotic locations.
10:52
Where would you have it wouldn't play you in the book in the movie adaptation, Martin.
10:55
Yeah, who would play you what actor Do you want to play?
10:58
I mean, it's definitely one for Clooney, you know,
11:03
an Americanized version of English. Do you want him to do an English accent as well?
11:08
Yeah, I wanted to become a full big Van Dyck English actor.
11:13
I love it. No. And so something else from the podcast is just fascinating is like, it's kind of a interesting time when this book came out, because sure you stopped it's 2018. Yet, we're still talking about these same issues that are still relevant. And you said this in the opening chapter is, we forget about the past. But as we look back and think of where we are now, and where we'll move forward, some of these questions that you've kind of are instigating, and some of our guests are asking a really relevant like, like, one question from CMC was, how can we go back to the things we learned then to move us forward into these digital environments? Now, that's still a relevant question. Like, that's really important. So I just love and we have lots of thanks from our guests, Martin for, you know, stoking the fire on some of these topics and just framing it in some shape or form because no one else did it. So by yours by topics by concepts, they really enjoy that.
12:13
Yeah, I think education technology hasn't become less significant since 2018. So the book is still relevant. And it's interesting. I'm sure you can follow these things like on online people, suddenly gamma, online learning doesn't work. You can't do communities and online learn. How do we do group work, and oh, my God, we're still doing these compensation, and so on, wave the book of people. So he says, I feel like it's at least some kind of antidote to that. We've just invented online learning kind of thing that seems to be very excited yet again.
12:44
I love that you're waving the book at me makes me think that we should make your TV production at animation of sorts.
12:50
Yes.
12:54
Well, I think graphic novel
12:55
version.
12:56
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm in alright. anyone listening wants to produce it? Call us. We're available for some writing and whatnot.
13:05
Hey, Martin, I have a question. I mean, I know that this book kind of came out of a blog series of blog posts that you wrote, but can you talk a little bit about about the process of writing the book, like, how do you go about doing the research, and especially in some of those early years? I know, some of it is anecdotal. But you certainly did a research piece to writing this book. And
13:26
can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, I think having the blog posts to work from, there's quite a nice writing process in the blog post, or just, you can say whatever you want the kind of thing in your head, at least once you've got back to work from the something, we're actually disclaim, I'm going to need to beef up prepare, or I don't think I made the point well, there. So then I'm still going around trying to find very specific types of references, or sometimes you end up going down a rabbit hole, we usually, on most of my posts, there was kind of a point I was trying to make no so. So the process itself, I mean, I still had the blog posts. And then I took myself away for I think mentioned before, I took this up away for two weeks to come on in December on the coast with a big storm battery at the door, I used to more or less write a chapter about you, as I say, today, it's CMC, you know, gathered together all the resources. And you've got to have a framework of what you want to say. But it's trying to find some references that will back up what you want to say, but also understand that lie to sort of go off in a different room and find a good voice in that field. So when I think of, for example, the the wiki one, I knew I wanted to mention, Mark's work, but it wasn't till I went back because I knew he was something I wanted to look up. So we're talking about them was that I went back and found some of the papers had written that the idea that, you know, some experimentation that we're doing then would still be regarded as radical now. So it came to me as I was looking back on it So,
15:01
yeah, in Fun fact, Clint, if you want to listen to Martin talk about his labor's rating process, we do talk about this on episode bonus episode that released on November 5, so I'll link it to the show notes. So I cuz I asked him the same thing selfishly of like, how do I write a book that I've been avoiding? No, I do a podcast instead that's that was my answer. So um,
15:21
I kinda like the idea of locking yourself in a remote cabin on a Welsh coast somewhere for a couple of weeks. And it's very rare, most kind of heads down, right?
15:31
took the dog with me right away to reach the big box of wine. And
15:39
I was gonna say some writers are loving this pandemic for that purpose. But then they also you get out to do stuff. And then when you can't get out and do stuff in LA, when you're locked down, then that's the challenge. So I may not be the best time to start a book, no one started a book, you don't need big goals just get through this year. That's all we weren't. So in thinking about the conversations ahead, so I've recorded I'll give you what my, my working life is on this. Um, I've recorded almost all chapters up until open textbooks, and I need the MOOC chapter still in the Twitter chapter still. But most of those are recorded. I'm trying to think about ways to involve other voices and people who want to contribute. And Clint, you mentioned something around Volcker Rule, or maybe this is Alan Levine's idea, do you want to talk a little bit about maybe how we can have other people share their voices as I volunteer my audio production? really crappy services for them?
16:36
Yeah, Alan wrote a blog post a few weeks ago, I mean, we're recording this in kind of mid mid January, but he had written a blog post, we you and I have talked a little bit about this, how we can get other other voices, like actual voices, kind of contributing to the podcast, without going through the sort of formal process of setting up meetings. And, you know, we're somewhere site that people could go to where they could just record something that we could then pick up. And, and Alan has talked about vocaroo, which looks like it could be a promising site. So people could go to vocaroo, record something through their browser, response to maybe one of the podcasts, they're listening to the chapters or between the chapters. And then we could pick that up and include it in one of the between the chapters that are forthcoming. I mean, you you're you are, what about up to what we said? Yeah, we still got, we still got comments. But you know, we could do. I mean, I think what would be really nice is if we could do a bonus show, just from community voices, covering the whole thing, you know, what are your comments about what did you think about, you know, this, so I think vocaroo might work really well, I haven't haven't actually tested it yet. So I'm hesitant to talk a lot about it. But I think, if we do a little testing, we'll find that that could be a good tool to do that. The other thing is people can just record it, if they have their own, I mean domain space, which is really good to have just posting it there or posting it in Dropbox or posting it in a Google Drive and sending the links to us. We there's a contact contact form on the website, and then we can pick those up and include those in a future episode.
18:21
Yeah, that's a good call out and I'd be open to putting some things together. And maybe I'll put some prompts out there and a call out. And we will add it to the website as well, because we think that some people have some thoughts in general, and thoughts specifically to a certain topic. And as a host, who does this in her part time volunteer work, I do have a list of questions that some of my guests want to have in advance and helps me to keep myself on track. So I could put that out. And maybe we can have some our listeners record and respond to them. These are just some guiding questions in case we run out of things to talk about. But that's really the case here. The question is really framed or how are you involved with x? What do you reflect back to this year? Share your experiences about the topic or the issue in the chapter? What stands out what is missing? And questions you want to ask Martin or others just generally in the community who are listening to the podcast, include these questions in the show notes, and maybe we'll link it to the website. Yeah, maybe we'll do it at the end. Maybe I'll mix it in between. It's really just based on when my free time is. So it's a it's an opportunity that gives people an opportunity to voice box and people have written blog posts. I haven't seen any audio back yet or any other cross podcast but if you have a podcast or you want to talk out loud and share it, we'll make it work however you want to share by email by contact form by job links. That's a great idea. So thanks for sharing that Clint. What what are we learning about this like process and project in general? emotionally technically, any of the above have
19:52
been surprised stroke pleased? cup genuinely caring people have been I've had a real haranguing joking with Maha Bali the other day, she said she was about certain called an episode with you. I haven't learned yet. But it was my birthday. It's my birthday. So go easy on me. But in general, people have been quite unkind. And cutting is easy to take to task, any chapter for the things that's missing, because inevitably, you're missing big chunks of beans. But generally people have been good. Thank you. Thank you for being going.
20:26
I hand those out, Martin, I can give you the off. I know. There was a couple there was what Jim was gonna ask you. I did edit that out. But he was like, No, he really appreciated. He was gonna be like, why didn't you include me? He went off on a rant and I cut that out. So I'm here that now Jim crew, I cut you out there. My choice? No, I think it's I think people are really okay with it being it's your lens. And that's really what the other between the chapters are talking about other people's perspectives, opinions or where they were at that time and where that impacted them. I wonder about the future chapters because we get darker down the road. So we'll see. It'll be fun. We're only on like chapter 1112 coming out now. So we shall see how it goes.
21:14
Lesson To start with, as you get nearer to Now,
21:17
one thing I noticed that was really timely, how we've talked about this sort of circular thing about how past topics come back, and they're still in play. And and the week that the E learning standards, one came out with Phil and Lorna was a week that I was talking you learning standards on a project I'm working on. And you know how this has just kind of risen up? Again, so here we are, I think the Learning Standards was what 2001 2002 somewhere in those early years. And here we are 20 years later, and I'm still working on some of those. So it was very is very applicable for me right in that moment. The timing was very serendipitous
21:57
Groundhog Day.
22:01
Well, something I will say if anyone wants to, in these pandemic times, still make friends or stay in touch with the professional network or reconnect with some people in the network. Have a book club of sorts, or talk about a thing with someone or just reach out to them and say, do you want to talk about x because that's it's been quite rewarding. For me, I know that I hope that the community has enjoyed listening to it. But it's really been fun to like, connect with people, people realize that I'm not living in the UK, which is adorable. I wish it was have people also realized, like, you know, just talking about like what we're doing at this time. So part of the podcast we do, we have a chat before. And then it's a bit of a catch up. But it's also reminding us why we were professionally connected in the first place. And a lot of my friends are from Twitter, and a lot. A lot of friends of the pod are from Twitter, and some of them I just a meeting for the first time in general. And I love learning about like their work, what they've done and where they're at now. It's just so fascinating to me. So that's been a really cool experience. So, yeah, you don't need a podcast, but you could just reach out to people and have an excuse to chat with them. When you bring when you bring a book along. That's what I've learned says this book nerd literati friend,
23:12
I think you're right. I think the pandemic has added a kind of extra bonus throughout the period people's voice. I think some service officers know that. They're missing meeting all these people usually made the conferences, it's just hearing their voices are the chapters, or through the podcast, it's gonna be a real rule. So welcome Bruce to kind of reconnect with those people they know.
23:33
Yeah, I hope that you reach out to them. Say I'd like to hear your voice. Let's talk more. You can use the old fashioned phone, you don't need to Zoom Room. Phones work well, or Skype or whatever. You know, back in the days,
23:44
we never had these things. Phones work well until I tried calling my kids. Like what what is that noise?
23:52
I don't use that for talking to piano I only use it warning me texting and whatnot. Gaming. Um, so there's a few chapters ahead, I will have probably Clint and Martin back towards the end, there's a conclusion. And if I also have a gap chapter where like, no one wants to talk about something which almost happened for a couple of them. They might they might make another appearance, Clint, thank you for coming on the blogging one with Bonnie. That was super fun.
24:17
That was really fun. Yeah. And there's a great example like Bonnie and I I've never actually met Bonnie in person, but I've known Bonnie for like, wow,
24:27
that's interesting.
24:28
Yeah. Yeah, I've met Dave and Dave you know I've been at conferences with with her partner Dave, but I have never met Bonnie but I've known Bonnie before I knew Dave through blogging and you know, we were both parent bloggers back in the day. Anybody who's listened to the show will hear that so I was really happy to be able to have that and make that connection with her. Beyond that shot already enjoyed that thing about the parent books. I
24:53
remember reading Polly's crypt Chronicles so Yeah, sounds really good episode.
25:00
Yeah, I love that like it was blogging, it still is blogging. So that was the reason why the book is here because it started from blogs. So we there was lots of love given from that one. Yeah. And it said, keep on keeping on with your blog, man. So we're grateful. What do your words have morphed into it, which is really true. And we hope that this continued conversation. So I'm taking, I need to blog more, I'm using to imply I've moved to podcasting. So I clearly need to blog more. But bringing people together with words, whether they're written or an audio, I'm really enjoying the process of talking with you both and talking with others. Because I think it's really working out some of the things there may be in our head that we don't talk about enough out there in the world of like learning teaching at Tech, all the things. So thank you. Okay.
25:48
The new blog,
25:51
the lazy blog, as I call it,
25:54
I'm just gonna warn you that next week, I'm sending off my next book to afrobasket price, which is metaphors of edtech. You know, so start and stop preparing the podcast now.
26:04
What's the name of that book? Again, Martin.
26:06
It's called metaphors of edtech. In some ways, it's kind of a companion piece to 25 years if that was the kind of narrative. This is the kind of metaphor. So it's quite fun. I think No, because you can use metal you anything could be a metaphor. So it's kind of a way of thinking more creatively about as well. So yeah.
26:24
So what are you saying you're asking for our service again, our rates going up next year. postpaid namic rates? No, they're not. No, we'd love to hear about that. So maybe we'll have to get you in for a conversation to tell us more what's ahead. sneak peeks teasers, you know, thanks for coming on and catching up about what the heck we're doing because who knows? I was just checking in to make sure you still like this and you still want this to go forward? I
26:50
don't know. yet. still loving it. Good. still
26:55
having fun doing it? Yeah.
26:56
Okay, great. I am two listeners. We want to hear from you. blog, tweets, podcasts, audio, record video, smoke signal, I don't know, we'll take any of the above included in the podcast. So if you want us to include something you've shared or something you've talked about, you want Martin to read your blog out loud and audio format. I'm going to volunteer you let us know. Let us know what you want. And we'd love to include your voice your ideas, your comments and your reflections on the 25 years of edtech book as a whole individual chapter and Clinton I will find a spot and space for you to submit said things on the website. And also I'll probably blog about it. That's what we do here of what you can do and how you can upload those things. So thank you for joining me to check in and back to editing I got lots of audio to work through. So my friends.
27:47
Thanks. Have a great day, guys.
27:49
You too.
27:52
You've been listening to between the chapters with your host Laura pasquini. For more information for to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of ITT tech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca