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Dr. Darren Pulsipher, Chief Enterprise Architect for Public Sector, author and professor, investigates effective change leveraging people, process, and technology. Which digital trends are a flash in the pan—and which will form the foundations of lasting change? With in-depth discussion and expert interviews, Embracing Digital Transformation finds the signal in the noise of the digital revolution.
People
Workers are at the heart of many of today’s biggest digital transformation projects. Learn how to transform public sector work in an era of rapid disruption, including overcoming the security and scalability challenges of the remote work explosion.
Processes
Building an innovative IT organization in the public sector starts with developing the right processes to evolve your information management capabilities. Find out how to boost your organization to the next level of data-driven innovation.
Technologies
From the data center to the cloud, transforming public sector IT infrastructure depends on having the right technology solutions in place. Sift through confusing messages and conflicting technologies to find the true lasting drivers of value for IT organizations.
And often folks have this perception of it
being very centered around risk.
And you're a risk seeker.
You're a daredevil, if you will.
You jump out of a jump off a big cliff
and build the airplane on the way down.
And while there is some truth to that
and a bit of romance,
I think the deeper truth is
entrepreneurs are individuals
who are comfortable with uncertainty.
Welcome to Embracing
Digital Transformation,
where we explore how people process policy
and technology drive effective change.
This is Doctor Darren, chief enterprise
architect, educator,
author and most importantly, your host.
Jeff, welcome to the show.
Great to be here. Thanks, Darren.
Hey, we first talked
to. It's been a while.
It's been like 2 or 3 weeks. Yeah. So.
And then we talked a little bit
right before the show.
I'm really excited about this topic.
It's, it's a big topic.
I'm seeing it everywhere.
What we're talking about today.
But before we dive into, you know,
teaming and digital transformation
and you know how to get through
uncertainty, everyone knows.
On my show,
I only had superheroes on the show.
You already know this, too.
Jeff.
So, Jeff,
you're a superhero to be on the show.
What's your background story?
Background story?
I, you know, I might go against the grain
and say I'm not a superhero,
but what I am is someone who's done
a few interesting things.
And hopefully that's useful
for the superheroes listening.
Because I'm, you know, a serial
entrepreneur, chronically unemployable,
came of age, working, came of age,
working in in hospitality.
I always say,
you know, if you if you're hiring somebody
and you've got two great candidates
and you can't tell them apart,
anyone who paid their way
through college work
in hospitality
knows how to deal with difficult people.
So go that way.
That was a great experience.
And, and like you guess from a
from a few weeks ago,
almost joined
the Australian Defense Force, as a pilot.
Got accepted into the equivalent
of West Point, which is the ad for Group
and decided not to go that way.
And it's probably for the best,
because since then I,
I realized, actually,
I needed to drop out of university
that had too much structure
and too little immediate pay off.
And so I've been very much an entrepreneur
my entire adult life.
And, and that's been a lot of fun
and a lot of roller coasters as well.
Well, and, and and you're healthy.
So you must have been somewhat successful
because you've eaten and so yet
for the rest,
the entrepreneurs out there, they're
there is some success out there, right?
Don't give up. Right.
Absolutely.
If you're comfortable with uncertainty,
it's a great life choice.
Because even if you don't,
you know, win the lottery, so to speak.
You'll you'll have a lot of growth
and personal challenge
in all of those great ways.
On your journey.
So. Right, right now, Jeff,
you help other startups,
build successful teams and
and get them moving and things like that.
Let's talk a little bit about that
and then.
Yeah.
How do we apply that to big corporations?
Because yeah, I see weird things going on.
Big corporations right now,
they're the CEOs and executive management.
They're all frozen.
Yeah.
It's just they're not they're not.
Frozen in a defensive. T yeah, yeah.
They're like frozen in this defensive
posture is what I see.
Yeah that's what I'm seeing.
Really uncomfortable really uncomfortable.
So yeah I to answer your question
on the intro better.
So I'm, I'm working on my fourth
tech company now,
I've been a tech company founder
since I dropped out of college
in the early 2000.
And, I've,
you know, had some good success with that.
And, and what I do now is,
you know, working on this fourth company
is primarily focused on using technology
to help other businesses,
often smaller businesses.
But still,
I've had quite a lot of interest
in the beginning of town as well
in improving their performance
of their organizations,
but I generally reserve about a day a week
to be an early stage advisor, mentor,
and investor for startups as well.
It keeps you shop.
And honestly, the number of times
I'll get off these calls or meetings
with great folks
and have to look in the mirror
and say that great advice
you gave
based on your 20 years of experience.
During this, you need to remember
to take that advice yourself
is worth every minute I spend.
On that, on that
kind of passion, if you will.
You know, people
always say, to learn something
and internalize it.
You can read it, you can listen to it.
Once you start teaching it yourself.
Totally.
And that my dad was a teacher.
And I think that really underwrites
a lot of what I'm doing now
is, is really focused on trying to
to help and teach,
because, you know, as you know,
someone who's been,
part of, you know, the peak
performance organizations
and trying to drive things forward,
the impact you can have by being able
to teach other people
to, to fish, as opposed to giving them
fish, is just so tremendous.
The the geometric progression there
is, is a sight to see, sight to behold.
Yeah. Okay.
So let's talk about when you approach
when when teams approach you
and you're all about helping them
be more successful in,
in in the eyes of uncertainty, which yeah,
frankly that's all we have right now.
It seems like is uncertainty
in every industry.
I talk to uncertainty in health
care in high tech.
So much uncertainty in high tech.
Yeah.
In education there's uncertainty. Yeah.
The only certainty I see out there is
if you're a plumber or an electrician,
because we need more of them.
We do.
And in
those jobs, those jobs are essential.
So but all this uncertainty,
how do you approach
how do you approach that with a company?
Teach me.
Teach people.
So I think when I,
when I was first starting to work
as a, as a mentor,
an investor with startups, often
the question would come from
whether it was government or other places
having been part of accelerators.
They would say, hey, what is it?
You know,
what does it mean to be an entrepreneur?
And often folks have this perception of it
being very centered around risk.
And you're a risk seeker.
You're a daredevil, if you will.
You jump out of a jump off a big cliff
and build the airplane on the way down.
And while there is some truth to that
and a bit of romance,
I think the deeper truth is
entrepreneurs are individuals
who are comfortable with uncertainty.
And most of us people are not comfortable
with uncertainty.
And so the the answer to your question is,
I think
what these current times are really,
providing a massive opportunity for
is a lot more entrepreneurship.
I think
that's really what it comes down to,
because if you're comfortable
with uncertainty,
then what you rely upon is your skills,
your wits, your experience,
and your ability to create something with,
future that we cannot predict.
And, and an inability to defend the castle
that we have just by sort of building
a bigger wall or deeper moat.
We really need to change our attitude
from being defensive to more offensive,
but doing that in an entrepreneurial way,
as opposed to that person who just,
you know, says, hold my beer,
does something great.
But I've seen organizations
that tried to be offensive
in these times of uncertainty, succeed
and some fail miserably.
Is it because they put their ladder
on the wrong wall,
or is there some other thing
that's causing that?
I, I think it's going to vary.
And obviously there's lots of case studies
in business schools, but I think in
my experience, it's
a combination of inflexibility
and being offensive
from the position of fear
as opposed to a position
of genuinely based confidence.
So if you're like, you know, a cornered
wild animal,
then you go on the market and you don't
you don't have, you know,
you haven't got your thoughts together.
You're you're not centered at all.
You're off balance.
And it's just a really risky proposition.
Whereas if you, on offense,
because you've centered yourself
and you've got a plan
and you're also constantly prepared to
to live in the uncertainty
that it might not be the perfect plan,
and therefore you're going to change
it based on what changes in the future?
I think you're in a much better position.
So it's really that difference
between kind of wild offense versus,
you know,
stepping forward in a darkened room,
knowing that you're feeling
the way down the walls.
And, you know, if you stub your toe,
it'll hurt a little bit, but you're not
going to die.
Of. Well, but you know, I like that.
Right? So,
offensive with confidence.
Yeah.
And I think that essential really.
Because the, the ability
for the current wave of technology
to disrupt entire
industries is like something, you know,
the closest I can come up to is, is,
you know, 25 years ago,
with the internet really
starting to go mainstream, and this feels
an order of magnitude bigger than that
in terms of its impacts.
And it's also going to take a while.
Yeah, I'm feeling the same thing.
I yeah, I was in Silicon Valley
during the.com boom and bust.
Yeah. Yeah. It was a major change.
This one feels
this one feels even more so.
Yeah.
The one I was thinking about the other day
as well, Darren, is you know,
this is a change that is going
to be different for our psychology.
So when internet arrived
and enabled a higher degree of the speed
of communication, universality
of communication, almost universality
of information, those were things
that were a really big change.
But we already understood
newspapers, TV, telephone, faxes,
you know, they were already the modes
for us to have as a proxy.
And we would just multiply the speed
of them and the and the ubiquity of them.
But this transition for sort of universal
intelligence
is like nothing
any of us have ever thought of before.
We've always tied intelligence.
If you think of it as the knowledge piece,
not the kind of raw IQ.
That's something that's acquired
incrementally through trial and error,
through book smarts and, and,
you know, all of those things.
And this is going to be,
I think, a really massive change
because we don't have a mental framework
to understand this in the same way that
we just thought, well, email is like a fax
that doesn't have the screechy sound
and is a lot faster, you know.
Like it's just a. Bad analog.
Really, right?
Yeah. This is this is a major shift.
All right. So I'm a startup.
I got all this uncertainty.
You've come in to help me.
What?
All right, no more.
No more pontificating.
Yeah, because I see a lot of people
pontificate about this.
You don't pontificate.
What do I do? What do I do? Jeff, help me.
So there's a psychology piece
around the uncertainty.
We'll put that to one side
because we've covered that.
Then from a tactical point of view,
it's to really unburden yourself
from the limiting thoughts
of what you can do,
because what you can do now versus what
you could do a year ago or two years ago,
is different order of magnitude, right?
So that means you can go a lot faster
with a lot fewer people.
People, which also means that
the people you do have,
so much were important to your success
compared to a competitor
who's similarly funded
with a similar sized team.
So the expectations
from a talent point of view,
dramatically increased.
So that's where, you know, the product
I'm working on now, Team Score comes
in, is trying to understand
what the performance of your team
is because frankly, over the past
five ish years,
and maybe going back a bit further,
there has been a general sort of slippage
in terms of intensity, because obviously
we had to get through crazy
times 5 or 6 years ago, and before that,
there was still a whole lot of,
you know, extra turbulence and cheap
and free money.
And so it allowed organizations
to get bigger than they probably
needed to be, with more duplication
than they needed have.
And in those environments,
you end up with places that end up
having people and roles
and responsibilities that you wouldn't
create or hire
or have if you were starting again fresh.
And so the consequence of that is
you need to get in shape.
There's metaphorical,
you know, sort of whether it's building
strength or losing pounds,
whichever your metaphor is,
I think
the defining characteristic of success,
whether you're a startup or a big company
in the transition, we're going through
and thinking about coming out
the other side in five, ten, 15 years
is actually mostly going to come down
to your performance in your fitness
because it's all well
and good to have a great idea.
But if you don't have the strength,
if you don't have the endurance,
if you're not in shape as an organization
to take advantage of it,
then I've got some bad news for you.
There's somebody who's a 10th
your size, using the new technology
that is going to come and eat your lunch.
I love
I love the metaphor of losing weight
because we're seeing that
with big corporations right now.
There's they're shedding people.
But I don't think they're building
strength too.
I think that's the big risk,
is that people,
you know,
assume that they can reduce headcount
and put more pressure on
and then just throw in some tools.
And it's a bit like that
Austin Powers scene
where, you know, he's has him tied up
and he closes the garage door and,
and you know, he senses are, well, aren't
you going to watch him die?
He's like,
oh no, I'm just going to close the door
to see if everything
went according to plan.
It's just, you know,
like you watch these big orgs and,
and I come up with a plan and then close
that, closed the door
and not say that, that.
Okay, so losing weight
is getting rid of people,
building strength in my organization.
Is that skilling up my people,
reskilling my people,
building more cohesion in my group?
What what what tips do you have for me
there on on building strength in my team.
So I think there's probably
a couple of analogies
that folks listening
and watching may be able to take on board.
The one that I've had a lot of resonance
with when I've talked to folks
is the way that the military looks
at having sort
of this special forces organization,
which is set up with less hierarchy,
more permission
and a lot more responsibility.
And it's more if they tried to make it
the whole size of the if they tried
to make the Rangers, like everyone
in the US Army, become a Ranger.
It would fail.
It would fail, right?
Like it has to be special forces.
That's where that special set comes in.
And so I think there's
probably an opportunity to do some of that
in organizations around
what you change to do
what sounds kind of a bit rote,
but is internal disruption because
you better off having internal disruption
than having someone else come in.
You know, Kodak, you
that requires probably
doing what,
you know, Xerox did with Xerox Parc,
but then continuing to stay out of the way
so it doesn't become Apple
who commercializes the PC,
or the Mac and the G
or the guy it it could have been Xerox
the whole way along.
But it was too much
coming out of Rochester.
You know, once they found out that
that Menlo Park in California
was starting to get some attention,
then there was a smothering effect
going on in the crib that,
so I think that's part of it.
You want that Special Forces play,
but then you actually need to be able
to protect them, and allow them to do
things that are uncomfortable.
The other option, which has probably
some similarities, is after this being,
you know, if you think back to
oh eight in the financial crisis,
but it happens in other
other kind of games as well.
There's a sense of a good bank
in a bad bank,
and I know it's very pejorative
and no one's to be put in the bad bank.
But the good thing
about separating your operations into
kind of the good bank,
which is the the future
and this is the seeds after the fire,
they're going to,
you know, continue to germinate
and grow and carry you guys forward.
And, and
separating that out and then having
what could be another a great business
for another decade or two,
leaving the quote unquote
bad bank is potentially what's needed.
No one wants to be in that.
So you have to kind of come up
with a better name for it.
But I do think that the fact
that you can do ten times more per person
with the new technology,
if those individuals,
empowered, empowered
and, and frankly,
you know, expected to do it,
then then you effectively
can like job of 10% of your org
and expect that to actually be
the size of the current,
all that you have in 48,
you know, months or something like that,
like it's not overnight, but it's it's,
I think probably the right answer
because everyone I talk to in in whether
it's medium size or large companies,
the number one thing that keeps coming
up, like in my, you know, I'm part of Ypo
and there's a lot of really big company
presidents
involved in a bunch of these, events.
And I'm part of it.
And it's always about culture
and culture change and and what
I end up hearing from them. Is.
That they kind of stuck in stasis
because they can't get everybody
to hold hands at the same time and jump
in the pool all at once and all it takes.
If you're trying to get anyone
to jump in the pool together
for one of those great photos
at a party is one person,
say, I'm not jumping in next.
You know, people have got cuts and
scrapes and, you know, it's
just it's impossible, right?
So I just think that you can't
make 100% of people change.
So you better off
creating a self-selecting,
good bank, bad bank or special forces
group and empowering them.
Yeah. I'm glad you said that.
Not everyone can be in Special forces.
Whether
because there could be a desire thing.
There could be a skill thing.
Yeah.
And I think part of the problem
that we've had in corporate culture,
frankly, over the last 10 or 15 years is,
yeah, everyone should be the same.
Yeah, yeah. And I mean.
Everyone's the same.
No one's better than another.
We've seen that
by getting rid of annual reviews
or organizations have gotten rid of those.
No more stack ranking.
No. There's some employees
that are far better at their jobs.
And others.
Yeah.
They're just everyone is different, right?
Putting them in the right
position is critical.
So I like what you said there.
There's some self-selecting.
I want to take the risk.
I want to, to,
getting
engaged in something that may take more
than 40 hours a week because.
Yeah, I have a passion for it,
and I want to be held accountable for it.
There are people like that.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's it is about the passion.
You know, it's it's a lot of it goes back
to some assignments and it's work around
start with y, you know, and folks,
I'm here because I,
I want to just keep doing the same thing
I've been doing for the past ten years,
for another 20 years,
and gradually increment up
the corporate ladder.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Like we got to take the value judgments
out of this,
and there is a place and a role
and a need for that.
Like AI isn't going to change everything
overnight, I think,
because there isn't the mental framing
to understand what this is going to be.
And the uncertainty is so much higher
that it could take twice
as long as the internet to play out.
But you don't want to find yourself,
you know, as the CEO of borders, you know.
Six you know what I mean?
Yeah. No, no, there's there's.
All right.
You fit.
What's next?
You told me to get fit.
I've I've I've got my my special forces.
I've decreased.
I lost some weight. I got rid of some of.
It's not just people I'm getting rid of.
It's process.
Process is huge.
Is is huge.
Because that slows me down, right? Yep.
What's my next step?
I'm fit now.
I think I'm fit right.
Well, I don't really.
Fit as you know, is it never really stops.
Right?
That's from the Special.
Forces of training all the time.
So it's not quite like I did this.
The box gets checked
and then I go in and do that.
No, that's good for me.
It's it's actually like an ongoing thing.
And for some organizations it's
going to be a culture change.
That is, is a change.
And and that's okay.
But then the question is, all right,
if I've got that as part of my routine
and I've made a commitment
and I'm going to be making incremental
progress, that like, nothing is less
likely to succeed than a crash diet.
So, all right, I'm making making steps
that are thoughtful and deliberative
to get fit and get in shape
and not doing massive wholesale reorg
or firing or whatever else, you know,
like don't, don't do those things,
but you make those incremental steps
building out a special forces capability.
And then really it comes down
to constantly asking not just what
can the new technology let me do, but
also asking what's going to stay the same.
So as a guess, you had, a couple of
weeks ago now who was really talking about
that sentiment of, all right, what is
what is the customer really want?
Like what is the business you're in and
and not asking it in a Porter's
Five Forces way, but more a deep fashion.
Like what?
Why do you exist as an organization?
You might have lost that.
Why? Or it might have been a bit smothered
or hidden under the how and the what
that everyone focuses
on around their oil structure
or their budgets
or their accountability lines or whatever.
Rather,
internally navel gazing focus goes on.
But if you can continue to focus on that
and ask the hard questions like,
does the world really need somebody
who's focused on maintaining typewriters?
Well, I think you can probably answer
that question pretty clearly now.
But it may not have been so clear
50 years ago to pick an extreme example.
So, you know, really, I think the
the step that I would encourage
next is to actually focus on the things
that are going to change and.
The things that are not going to change.
Right.
You said.
Yeah, I think so.
Like Bezos
said something great a long time ago.
He's like,
yeah, you know, all of this changes a lot.
But the thing that I'm pretty confident
is, is people are going to like
to have more selection.
They're going to like stuff cheaper
and they're going to like it faster.
It's those three things seem
pretty universally like that's
not going to change in another,
you know, sort of five or 10 or 20 years.
Lots of other things will.
And so being able to
then identify in your business,
what are the things that are going
to, you know, be consistent.
So in my business,
one of those key consistencies is
you want to be better
at whether it's serving a client
or running a business
next year than you were this year.
So how do you get better?
Right. Yeah.
And what does your customer want.
That's going to vary.
Obviously Bezos is examples very B2C.
Everyone I work with is B2B,
but even in that B2B context,
there's still this aspect of okay,
what does the customer really want?
And do they want to make better decisions,
but they also realize
they generally lie to themselves
when they say they want to be data driven,
because 90% of our decisions come from
words like gut or heart or, you know,
like the things that don't have words
associated with them, right?
That limbic brain is
where the decisions really come from.
So, you know, they're actually saying,
I want to be data driven.
They're really saying,
I want to be data justified.
So it's like, okay,
what do you really want to do?
You want to have better understanding
to feed that limbic brain.
You want to have it, therefore,
and then make the decisions and,
and then work through the outcomes
of them?
Well, those things are pretty relevant.
You just said something that just makes me
think that I will never be able
to run a whole business, because I doesn't
have that intuition, that gut feeling.
Right? Yeah.
We base a lot of our big decisions on.
In fact,
you can probably look at the richest men
in the world and women in the world.
Yeah.
And I bet their gut decisions that they
made, they write with data justification.
I love that term, by the way. Yeah. That's
so that's really
interesting that you said that because I,
I think that to your gut tells
you, let's do this.
The data me the and then I go
find the data to justify what I do.
Yeah.
Yeah I know what's interesting is
we need to have the inputs.
We need to think in C and in certain
environments smell, taste, touch.
We need to have
those inputs to inform our gut.
Right. So we still. Need that ultimately.
Yeah.
But ultimately
there's something inside it.
And that's why
I don't think I can handle that.
Yeah.
It's going to be interesting too,
because, you know, if I is able
to trick us with those things,
then maybe it can have effect.
But I think if you wanted to imagine
someone's literally driving a company
or a team or an OKR, like,
I don't know that
that that's going to be something.
Whereas using the AI to augment that.
So what I found to be incredibly valuable
building my latest company was
being able to use AI as a thought partner
until it look, you're a McKinsey
consultant
who's been doing this for 20 years,
and now you're my co-founder
who's put everything on the line,
and he is the starting point for a product
and a plan.
And in a 90 minute
drive to the mountains earlier
this year, when I was taking my cues up
to learn how to ski, and Breckenridge
managed to do more in 90 minutes
than I would have done
pre, I, you know, a whole week
sitting around in a conference room
with whiteboards
and sticky notes to things.
I, I had the same
thing happened to me, for Thanksgiving.
I drove out to Utah.
So it's a ten hour drive with my wife
and kids are asleep in the car,
and I pulled up ChatGPT,
and we had an hour long discussion
on what we could do to improve the show
and to get.
Yeah, here's engage.
It was incredible.
I was like, this is great because I could
I could say, give me a different angle,
give me this single, you know, it was
it was awesome.
But ultimately it was my.
It's your decision.
And and you're right, I was regurgitating
back to me what I was telling it, right
in a different way.
That spurred on more brain thought.
Yeah. How do you do that with with a team?
Because that'd be great to add
to your Special Forces team.
And I mean, that's sitting there
with you saying, hey, you know,
I want you to take this position
that us as humans
sometimes have a hard time doing,
especially if I don't have a team
that's balanced.
Yeah. With diversity of thought.
Yeah, that I can bring in another,
another diverse idea
without having to hire someone or vet them
and then then become,
what's the right word?
Indoctrinated in team.
Yeah, that's a problem, right? Yeah.
It is a really interesting point
I found with the right kind of prompting
and frankly, being pretty spicy,
that I can get some of those contrarian
thoughts
to the surface
pretty quickly and eliminate, sycophancy.
And so that's where it's like
telling it it's a co-founder who's
put everything on the line like that.
Those sorts of sentiments have actually
been pretty effective at creating a,
an adversarial conversation
in a very constructive, you know, way.
But I think I,
as a tool for teams, is actually
a really the challenge to like that shared
knowledge that shared context, being able
to make sure that you build upon it,
the context piece
and having that shared in an org continues
to be,
a really big challenge,
because most of the stuff
that I'm seeing in the field
is variations on a search engine,
you know, like I'm going to use Rag
and it's going to do this and it's like,
no, that's not quite right.
But the context windows
are increasing significantly.
And then the other thing that I'd say is,
at least
for the foreseeable future, it's still,
you know, businesses are going
to move forward based on those people
to people relationships and interactions.
And so the ability
to pull in a metaphorical McKinsey
consultant, and instead of having
to sign off on a six figure
purchase order, I realize you're dealing
with three months of all of the drama,
instead being able to spend 20 bucks
a month and get going is sure.
Is it as good? Is it as unique?
No, but it's many orders of magnitude
more accessible.
So say thank you and get on with it.
And I think that having that advantage
then amongst
a team, like a group of people
all sharing and thinking in that way,
I think is going to be really beneficial.
I don't see the tech actually piece into
mediating the human to human connections.
I think what it's doing is it's allowing
each of us with those thoughts
that are running around on a head
all the darn time
to be able to make a lot more of that.
So then when we do have
those human human interactions,
which hopefully are more frequent,
not less, that we're actually,
you know, the cream rising to the top
a heck of a lot faster.
Yeah, I, I like what you're saying there.
I actually think the same way.
I think that, Jen, I will increase
the human to human interaction.
Yeah.
And get and get rid of
some of the miscommunications that happen.
Yeah.
Because we can articulate our ideas so
much better now than we could in the past.
Were there, I can't explain it is
I can picture it
in my head, but I can't
I can't get the words out.
Yeah, yeah, it's difficult,
but because I'm also afraid
that I'm going to say something stupid.
Does that make sense?
Yeah. No. True, true. Yeah, you've got it.
And you got a trusted place that you can
trust me, stupid and and realize
it was stupid and and you know.
Yeah. And you go to share with your team.
You've actually got a much more form
thought now. Now.
Very, very interesting stuff.
All right, Jeff, if people want to find
out more about you and what you're doing.
Yeah.
How do they reach out to you?
Yeah.
The best bet for now, is
go to team Scorpio's A team scores
the product I built because of what
I needed in my last company,
which was a better way for managers
to have that peripheral vision
as to what their remote
and hybrid folks were working on.
But I refused to roll out the spyware
technology that's common in the space
because I was like, not doing
it is going to mean to the 40%
of really awesome team members
that are like the top contributors, let's
say, are going to feel really,
really cheated
and distrusted just so I 10 or 20%
that I need to sort of work
through and manage to a better place.
I have visibility
there, like so that was a bad trade.
So I think Team Scorpio check it out.
It's a free product.
Obviously is paid
to like any freemium products,
but if if you've got remote or hybrid
folks, check it out.
And, I'd love to hear
what you think of it.
You can also find me on LinkedIn.
All right, Jeff, again,
thank you so much for coming on the show.
This has been a great conversation.
I love to I love talking to to new people.
That's why I do this show.
I started so great.
Thanks again for coming on.
Excellent.
You're most welcome.
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