062 | David Wood | Distribution: The Non-obvious Power of Smaller Categories | Liana Collection

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Ep. 062, I dived into the complexities of the drinks distribution industry with David Wood, Founder of Liana Collection, a UK-based Premium Drinks Importer and Distributor (IWSC Spirits Distributor of the Year 2023 in the UK).

He shares valuable insights on what makes a successful brand, the importance of quality liquid, and the market's competitive nature.

Discover the criteria for selecting brands, the significance of founder-led stories, and the focus on sustainability and smaller categories.

We also discuss the challenges of gaining a distributor's mindshare, the benefits of being a secondary cocktail ingredient, and strategies for maintaining balance in a brand portfolio.

This conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in the drinks industry, brand development, and distribution strategies.

Time Stamps

00:00 Welcome to the World of Distribution: A Candid Chat

00:51 The Essence of Building a Drinks Brand: Brand vs. Liquid

03:31 Insider's Guide: Selecting Brands for Distribution

06:31 Innovative Strategies in the Drinks Industry

09:39 The Art of Being a Secondary Ingredient

20:43 The Power of Modifiers in Cocktail Creation

29:00 Navigating Portfolio and Contract Negotiations

31:56 Navigating Brand Sales and Relationships

34:07 Strategic Portfolio Management and Outlet Selection

35:33 Adapting Sales Strategies Across Different Venues

39:43 The Importance of Brand Identity and Selective Partnerships

41:47 Personal Growth and Career Reflections

44:48 Building a Business with Purpose and Longevity

55:47 The Value of Legacy and Historical Insight in Branding

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: David Wood

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

David Wood

Founder | Liana Collection | UK Distributor

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo.
In episode 62, I dived into the

complexities of the drinks
distribution industry with David

Wood, founder of Liana
Collection, AUK based premium

drinks importer and distributor.
He shares valuable insights on

what makes a successful brand,
the importance of quality liquid

and the competitive nature of
the market discovered, the

criteria for selecting brands,
the significance of founder LED

stories and the focus on
sustainability and smaller

categories.
We also discuss the challenges

of gaining distributors mind
share, the benefits of being a

secondary cocktail ingredient
and strategies for maintaining

balance in a brand portfolio.
This conversation is a must

lesson for anyone interested in
the drinks industry, brand

development and distribution
strategies.

One last thing, if you enjoy
this podcast you will also like

the Mafia Drinks guides where
you will find all you need to

build your brand bottom up.
You can subscribe free or paid

on Mafia Drinks Com.
Hi David, how you doing?

Hey, Chris, I'm really good.
Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely.
It's a pleasure.

I got a lot of messages from
listeners and they say like, can

you talk more about
distribution?

Can you talk more with
distributors and how to select a

nice distributor and a good one.
And let's talk about

distribution a bit more and
importer.

And I said I'm actually
recording, you know, next week

I'm recording 1.
So it's nice to have you.

Hopefully I can give an
interesting side to the

industry.
I'm really looking forward to to

having having a bit of a chat.
Absolutely, absolutely.

So let's let's start with my
usual question on does it start

with the brand or with the
liquids on building a drinks

brand?
Really good question both is the

sitting on the wall answer. 1
great example of of liquid is a

brand you know our portfolio
called Sanford Orchards inside a

brand who have been making
locally produced extremely high

quality cider in the same way
that they did 600 years ago.

And up until about 5 years ago
Barney Butterfield, the owner

was designing the brand and the
branding on paint.

Believe it or not, they're now
probably the fastest growing

side of brands probably in the
world.

The brand is super strong, but
in that instance, it was

certainly the liquid that came
first.

My gut feel is all great brands
have to have great liquid.

So if I'm leaning towards one or
the other, I would lean towards

liquid.
Nice, nice.

Yeah, I tend to agree.
I mean like I'm I'm listeners

know my take on this one.
Some brands managed to do it

well on the brand side of
things, but I think it's usually

like a liquid that made a brand,
you know, created the category

and then created the brand
afterwards.

And then now we think of the
brand as a superpower because it

is now the, you know, brand
first.

But actually in the end, if we
look at it, you know, it was

very liquid.
Then of course there are some

categories that are more leaning
into the liquid by default.

You know, if you think whiskey,
you know, that's it's very much

on liquid and the, the, the, the
burning question for me on, on

being, you know, like you being
a distributor and and just to

verify.
So you are an importer and

distributor in the UK, right?
Exactly, Yeah, We import brands

from all over the world,
distribute them and build their

their sales and marketing in the
UK.

One of the big question, I mean,
I've been working with more than

30 distributors importers that,
you know, in my beer days and

now of course was so we don't on
the spirit side of things.

And it's always funny because
there's always the same things

happening, no, and there's
always brands asking for more

and you know, more coverage and
you know, like it.

It's quite tough to get into the
share of mind of a distributor.

No, And this is what I think
many listeners as brand owners,

they complain about like how do
I get more share of mind?

Because they get a phone call,
they get to the first shipment

and then all of a sudden they
hear crickets now.

So I always recommend them to do
the work bottom up to really

understand the market 1st and
then go upwards towards the

distributor.
So, you know, start from the

outlet and then go to
distributor.

We we've discussed this many
times, but from your

perspective, how'd you pick a
brand in your portfolio?

Like to make sure that actually
it works also for you and you

know you can give that space to
that brand that you know the the

space that it deserves.
This, the issue with the

industry today is it's more
competitive than it's ever been

getting into the market and
there's more money than ever for

distributors to be able to fill
a warehouse with lots of brands

and charge retainer for its fees
and ultimately service the top

maybe 10% of their portfolio,
not necessarily be able to give

a fantastic service to some of
the smaller brands in in the

portfolio.
Our business was always built on

smaller categories.
There were two reasons for that.

One, we don't want, you know,
whiskeys, gins, you know, house

rum contracts that we're going
going up against the likes of

Diagio or Bacardi, like that's a
really, really hard battle to

win.
So the the business plan was

always find really interesting
categories that are a necessity

on the bar, but don't
necessarily have a huge amount

of competition and try and find
the very best brands in each of

those categories.
Our categories would include the

Moose liqueurs, Calvados, Les
Cow cider, amaros, important

things to a back bar and to
cocktails, but you don't need to

fight as many competitors.
And that as kind of one of our

unique selling points really as
a as as a partner.

The next thing we look for with
brands is they have to pass a

test in terms of the pillars of
our business.

So those pillars being
independence, that's really

important to us.
Second is sustainability.

You know, we we took a stand a
long time ago that we wanted to

work to make the trades a much
more sustainable business.

The drinks trade is guilty of
some pretty hot shocking

practices from production to
glass to wastage.

So the brand would have to be
sustainable and have a focus on

sustainability.
And the last one is the founders

behind the brands.
So we want founder LED stories

the the guys that own our drinks
brands or run our drinks brands,

you know, tend to be industry
leaders within within their

expertise.
So Barney, who I just mentioned

from Sampler is a you're not
going to find many people on

planet earth who are more
invested and knowledgeable in

the cyber industry.
The same with brands like Mooyu,

our Lakia brand from Alex
Cortina and Monica Burks and

Simone Caparoli, the probably
the three most famous bartenders

in the world to Mark Ward,
founder of Regal Road.

To me, an absolute global master
of the moose.

These guys are really important
and it's an unfair advantage

having somebody like that behind
the brand so that it to shorten

the answer.
You need to be in a smaller

category and you need to hit
those three, those three points.

I like all the points, but one
that got me is, is this

interesting categories now,
because one of the books that

that I'm reading is called Snow
Snow Layopard become category

king and, and basically they
talk about is about is from

Nicholas Cole and Dickie Bush to
American guys that I follow on

category design basically.
And, and what they talk about

that is very interesting for me
is that you need to create your

own category.
Otherwise, you're just like

fishing in the same pond as
everyone else, you know, So you

need to create demand and all
those things that I talk about.

But the interesting thing when
it comes to our industry is that

you mentioned it not like, you
know, especially when you

negotiate contracts or you talk
to bartenders and then it's

like, no, I've got a whiskey
already.

And then they can go deeper and
then say I've got a Scotch

already.
And then it could be I've got a

blended Scotch already and I've
got a single malt already.

And then if you get stuck on
that superficial level of

categories, like I gather
spirits or whiskeys or vodkas or

whatever that is, it becomes a
very difficult conversation to

have no on at bar level.
So if you go deeper, then you

can really build your brand on
cues and aspects that maybe

other brands don't have.
Or it can even be like something

that allows you to put the foot
in the door.

I remember when I was selling in
the Nordex, Peroni, Peroni's a

lager, you know, but then you
can talk about like a

Mediterranean lager, an Italian
lager, a lager, a refreshing

lager where it's allowed to say
refreshing, by the way.

So for me it was always like,
you know, when I was trying to

answer.
Then for example, they may had

Heineken on top and then I was
like, yeah, we have a Contra

with an again.
And that's like, yeah, but this

is not a lager.
This is like an Italian lager.

Do you have Moriti from Heineken
or?

No, we don't.
OK, so then you can have it.

I was like, actually, yeah,
that's a, that's a good point,

actually.
I can have it, you know, And

then we were managing to answer
either with bottle first or

then, you know, starting with
bottle, then going, moving on to

draft.
So sometimes, you know, you can

play on this and it could be an
Italian vermouth or a British

vermouth, or it could be, I
don't know, a Scandinavian side

that, you know, you can go on
geography, you can go on

flavors, you can go on different
things now.

So I like that aspects because
otherwise we all get stuck into

the Big 5 categories and then
nobody moves.

But as you rightfully said, you
know, on cocktails, you know,

sometimes those categories that
you mentioned before, like those

are the fundamental ones to
create Greek cocktails.

Otherwise you would just have a
highball.

Would also not necessarily the
fundamental of a cocktail.

The the easiest thing to do.
If you look at the drinks

industry and you want to make a
load of money and say I, I want

to be the lead ingredient in
these cocktails, and that's

where the volume is.
That's where the volume that

every single other competitor is
going after.

If you don't go after that and
you look to be a secondary

cocktail ingredient, you might
not be 50 mills within the

cocktail.
You might be 15 mills, you might

be 25 mills.
That's a much easier space to be

competing.
And if you're a rum or a tequila

or a gin, you're never going to
be the secondary ingredient in

the cocktail.
Like doesn't make any sense that

the secondary ingredient tends
to be a modifier, you know, an

interesting flavour.
And if you analyze the Liana

collection, you'll see a number
of really, really interesting

modifiers.
Beer 30 and 40 W lovely apple

aperitif or Aqua Bianca from the
Coipa and the Maestro Canabresi,

you know, which is a citrus LED
beautiful liqueur that I'm sure

it's going to be big in the next
few years.

Do you like to see the the size
of the prize with that one or or

muyu?
Muyu is probably the best

example at 3 liqueurs
championing, you know, very

specific flavors, Jasmine,
Kiloto and vetiver.

On the very face of it, that
sounds really, really niche and

really hard to scale.
But if you start focusing on

secondary ingredients within
cocktails as modifiers, suddenly

those brands are so, so relevant
to bartenders.

One of our unique selling points
is you're having a focus on

secondary ingredients where you
don't need to battle against the

big guys, and you can really
build brands through kind of

death by 1000 cuts.
You know you're looking for lots

of small wins that add up, but
those wins should be a lot

easier to find.
I like that the 1000 cuts, it

gets the point.
And to be honest, like, yeah, I

meant fundamental in the sense
that you need it but not the

fundamental ingredients.
It's the right correction to

make there because we were
talking about this with Alex

Fritzer from Lanti Guadio in
Napoli when I had a session with

him last summer.
And we were exactly talking

about this.
Now.

It's like try to focus on, you
know, smaller ML or ounces in

that drink or try to be on a
very secondary cocktail that

doesn't get the attention of all
the other bigger players but

still gets you the foot in the
door and you can actually claim

you're in the cocktail menu
there, No.

It's very true.
One of the other things that's

interesting about being a
modifier in a cocktail is we

made the mistakes in the early
days of trying to be the lead

ingredient.
So a good example is 30 and 40.

They're an independent Calvados
bottle and they're really famous

for their their double G apple
apparati product, which is if

you haven't tried it, it's
amazing.

It's a blend of Calvados and
cider.

You essentially add the Calvados
to the to a cider apple juice

and it's stops the fermentation.
It's beautiful product.

Anyway, we were working with a
really good friend of mine

called Alex who runs Metro Pubs,
premium arm of Green King.

And in the early days we were
saying that we want 50 mil

double SU and a cocktail and
we'll call it the palm spritz

and it'll challenge a Parole
spritz.

And we put it into the estate
and it just didn't sell.

Now the next year we put in
alongside a gin brand and

leveraging that brand, we
sacrificed some volume, but the

consumer sat down in a pub
garden, knew the gin brand, saw

that there was a interesting
sounding apple, a paratif

alongside it.
And as a result, the rate of

sale was was enormous in
comparison to try to force the

issue with a brand that's not
not known.

One of the kind of interesting
things about not being a lead

ingredient in cocktails is
actually can benefit your brand

in that a lot more people will
drive towards that serve if

they're familiar with the lead
spirit that you're alongside.

It sounds very interesting and
it's a great case study to

mention because I'm a big fan of
that as well.

And and to your previous point,
you know, like from certain

categories is very difficult to
to be not the lead ingredients

now because some of the
cocktails are made for that

category, you know, like a
whiskey cocktail, whiskey lead

cocktail and vodka lead
cocktails.

So you cannot be just like the
vodka on top of the other vodka

that is already there.
But if you have a distinctive

taste profile and then we go
back to the liquid and the taste

profile, you could actually add
something.

For example, like I'm a big fan
of the Boulevard there.

I think everybody knows it by
now.

I think whoever I'll meet, they
will offer me a Blvd. there

because I'm always talking about
that.

But for example, I like to play
with the Negroni family going

from MiTo to Americano to
Negroni Mescal, Negroni Blvd.

there.
You know, I play with all of

them and, and sometimes, like, I
like to have it with a Scotch,

but then sometimes I may have it
with a bourbon, but then I may

ask to top it up with a peated
whiskey, you know, so in that

moment it becomes like a super
tiny dash of whiskey.

Yeah.
So you may think it's it's

useless, but in terms of share
of mind, that's what gives, you

know, the top flavor to that
drink for me, you know, So it is

top of mind for me that peated
whiskey in that moment.

If you are the owner of that
peated whiskey brand, you're not

seen as a threat by anybody of
the other whiskeys.

It may take you longer through
to finish that bottle, but maybe

you may become like a
fundamental modifier on many

other cocktails.
For example, now, and I

remember, I don't remember the
name of the movie, there was

this kind of like a gangster.
They were talking about the fact

that they were dress stylish and
then he was like, this guy was

dressed in white.
And then he said like, you know,

once I went to a, to a party,
you know, like, and then I, I

got shot at this pool party.
What's the lesson about that?

That, that sometimes white can
kill you, you know, because he

was all dressed in white and he
was easily spotted by the

sniper.
And then basically was like, you

know, like he was shot.
And what I mean by this, you

know, sort of funny story is
that, you know, sometimes, you

know, if you are the leading
one, you're easy to get, you

know, that red dot, that red
laser or the rifle on your head,

you know, and everybody wants to
attack you.

While if you are a little bit
more stealth, it could be that,

you know, it takes you longer to
be seen, but then you're

basically seen everywhere in the
right spot.

And then it doesn't matter if
you're not selling that much.

It's it's also easy to protect
your business because one house

listing with a lead ingredient.
Let's say it's 500 bottles a

year.
You don't find many of those

because it's so competitive out
there.

And if you lose one, it's kind
of, you know, it's cataclysmic.

Whereas if you have 10 bars
doing the same volume and you

lose one of them, as a modifier,
it's a lot.

It's a lot less strenuous on
your forecasting.

And it's an easier conversation
to manage with the bar partner

to say, look, you know, we're
only a modifier.

We're not getting in the way of
the Diageo contracts.

If somebody comes in, puts 5
grand on the table and wants to

steal the gin element of this
cocktail, you know, great.

But another Jasmine liqueur is
not going to come along and

invest more than more than we
are.

What's interesting on our
portfolio is once, once you once

you've kind of got that, that
spot, that's when the other

elements of the brands are so
important.

And what I mean mostly on that
is the founder LED's, it's part

of our business, you know, the
the founders behind the brands.

And once somebody puts 30 and 40
onto the menu, once they've then

got a connection with Vincent,
the founder.

And it's not just a pretender
who's created some commodity.

It's a guy who is in love with
the Kavadoss industry and has

spent his entire last 10 years
building the category and the

brown and he's taken the time to
come see you and build a

personal relationship with you.
And you're only a modifier in

the cocktail.
Like it's easier for people to

stay and look super loyal to you
than have have a big company

come in and try to buy the menu.
You know, that's that's a lot

harder to protect, which is
another reason that we don't

like the big categories because
forecasting and man managing and

protecting business is super,
super hard.

We were discussing something
with Elias Mastroianis in one of

the previous episode where the
Mastroianis, the winery and

distillery from Washington
State, and we were talking

about, you know, mastering the
unscalable things first.

Now, because what you just said,
I mean, it's like, listen to me

think, OK, how can I take the
time and go to London and visit

bars and so on.
But in the beginning it's

through those kind of unscalable
things, which is visiting a bar

and talking to the bar owner and
talking it to people.

It's unscalable because you're
not ubiquitous and you know, you

cannot be in many places at the
same time.

But at the same time, that's
what gives you feedback as well.

You know, like on OK, like I'm,
I've tried, you know what the

story you just mentioned before,
you know, like we've tried to

do.
A highball, we try to do a

spritz, we've tried to do this.
It doesn't really work.

So maybe we could play from
another angle and then start

bottom up, you know, on
milliliters, you know, to go

from, you know, one to two to
three one and grow it kind of

thing.
And and that's crucially

important for, as you said, like
founder LED branded.

It's funny because the, the
brands you mentioned like in

since we originally spoke some,
I think it was like a couple of

months ago and I saw the brands
on your website.

Then I, I just happened to meet
the people, you know, like

either through the newsletter or
in person.

And I got to talk to see Bold
from 30 and 40.

I've actually met Alex Klatena
here in Prague at the Prague Bar

Show.
And then I was a guest at his

guest shift with ZE Castanic.
And then I, I tasted the, the

drinks and they were incredible.
I had seen this me you, but I

had not tasted it anyway.
And I'm I I wrote him a message

then on Instagram like the other
day and I said like, actually

like the Veti Vey is my favorite
one, despite now I mean, being

Italian, I'm a big fan of
Kenoto, but veti Vey was really

outstanding for me.
And you can see like, you know,

like how maybe it's just like a
little dash at the end of the

cocktail or it's a like very few
milli milliliters, you know, on

a cocktail.
But it adds a total different

kind of flavor to that cocktail
elements, no?

It's amazing the the beauty of
me, you and all of the so many

brands in the Liana collection,
the beauty of modifiers

particularly is the empowerment
that you give a bartender.

And what I mean by that is we
don't have a drink strategy.

You know, we don't say you
should try this serve or we're

telling you how to use our
product, which you have to do

that.
If you're a tequila brand and

trying to stand out and you're
trying to create a new way of

drinking tequila, for example,
you have to tell bartenders that

this is our drink strategy and
you need to stick to the rules.

The beauty of Me you is we're
saying to the bartender, these

are tools for you to be creative
with and we want to see what

you're going to come up with.
You know, we could give you some

advice and things that have
worked, but ultimately you're

the artist and this is an
ingredient for you to use to

really bring to life the drink
that you're working on.

And that that is such a such a
great way to work because you're

not constantly pushing Negronis
or Martinis or Manhattans or

trying to trying to force your
way into a competitive sector.

You're saying these are the
products that's let's try them.

These are how they're made.
You know, this is the flavor

profile of each of them and
these are the people behind

them.
Have a play around and I'd love

to see what you guys come up
with.

And if you look at the sales
data for for me, you

particularly we, we won't have a
single cocktail in the whole of

the UK that does more than 25
mil, I guarantee it.

And we sell thousands of cases
and it's hundreds of accounts

who have been inspired and done
their own thing and they've

created their own dream.
And that is really, really cool.

Like the thought that there are
thousands of cocktails around

the UK right now using muyu in
hundreds of different ways is

the sign of a really, really,
really good brand.

And I, I think that's something
that a lot of people can learn

from is if you're getting into
the drinks industry as a

mainline spirit, you might want
to have a subsidiary brand.

A great example would be gin
brands who are looking to

maintain their market share in a
declining market.

Well, start looking at liqueurs,
you know, gin liqueurs and maybe

making a bit of a balanced,
slightly more balanced range,

not to just focus on trying to
find a lot of volume in a very,

very cluttered category.
Wow, that's so.

That's very interesting to hear
because it's a bit of a hot

topic for me.
Like it.

I always like to call them this
Crusades that I but I do online

on these things and and drink
strategy is one of them, because

I'm really, really against, you
know, dictating the drink

strategy now.
And just to clarify, you know,

if you're a historical brand or
if you are really immense from

an occasion perspective to
target a specific cocktail, then

it's clear, you know, like if
it's a if you think company with

Negroni apparel with the spritz
or, you know, like you name, you

know, Quintreau with, I don't
know, Margarita or cosmopolitan

and and so on.
Like, you know, like those that

are in the kind of old school
bar guides and and recipe books

now.
But then if in your history that

has never come out as a clear
target occasion or target

cocktail, then it's useless to
make it up as something that you

know, one year is going to be
ginger ale, one year is going to

be tonic.
You know, you're just jumping on

on the trends.
You're just like copying

whatever is hot at that moment,
you know, whether it's tonic

ginger ale or juice or orange
juice.

And then it's the apple juice.
And then it's, yeah, you know,

multivitamin juice and whatever,
you know, And then it becomes a

bit of a gimmick.
And then bartenders will take it

as a, are you trying to tell me
what to do?

You know, like bartenders on
average, especially the the best

ones, you know, like they don't
want to be told if in the

selling story, you explain the
taste profile and then you let

them think, OK, like you
mention, well, that's in this

example.
But you know, you mention

whatever, you know, like Smokey
or it's the citrus or floral,

whatever, you know, like, and
then you they can think,

actually, I'm missing that
Smokey element on that cocktail

and this could be a nice
addition to it.

But you let them choose.
So you need to give them some

guidance of some sort when you
explain the product, in my

opinion.
But then at some point, you'd

have to shut up, you know, just
let their brain stick back.

That's.
That's very true.

But when we present me, for
example, we have a flavor guide

to we'll say Betty, there is a
very perfumed, very aromatic

flavor and you need to pair it.
Typically you're going to need

to pair it with one of three
categories in terms of flavor.

That gives some some degree of
guidance.

And honestly, that's as that's
as far as we'll go.

We'll then allow the bartender
to be to be creative.

It's interesting because the
other side of our business would

be going out after house pause,
but in, in smaller categories.

And that's so much easier
because the bartender knows what

to do or the publican knows what
to do.

And Stanford Orchards, our cider
brand is a really good example.

It's the easiest thing in the
whole world to sell in the

drinks industry because the
brand and the liquid is

absolutely unrivalled.
They're making cider, which is a

British heritage industry.
They're not just making cider,

they're making it with 100%
locally pressed fruits,

absolutely no other ingredients
apart from locally pressed

Devonshire apples in the same
way that we used to make cider

2000 years ago, which is the
same process as wine harvesting,

fermenting, blending and
bottling.

And the actual brand is where
the investment's been in the

last few years.
And if you look at Sanford

Orchards, look at the way it's
presented, it ticks all of the

boxes and it's really, really
well priced.

You know, it's more expensive
than a pint of Orchard Seeds or

Strongbow or it's a slightly
more premium price point, but

it's such an obvious thing to
put on the bar.

And the reason that's a great
brand is you say, have you guys

got a side of contract?
The pub says no, you say this is

the brand, they love the
product, you do a agreement and

that's the end.
They put it on the tap and

people buy it.
That's the frustration on the

spirit side.
And the modifier side is you're

constantly having to think of
new cocktails and there's so

much complexity and there's no
guarantee on the volume and how

much is going to sell.
Whereas with cider I can tell

you across the board every
single pub is going to sell

somewhere around nought .5 kegs
a week somewhere around that,

which makes forecasting
unbelievably easy and the rate

of sales always good because
it's such a good quality

product.
So that's kind of the other side

of our business which is smaller
categories that don't have that

many competitors in that do
drive volume on the bar.

And and another two examples, we
have a mezcal brand called

Dangerous Doll and house mezcal
contracts and our thing and

again, the pub or a bar have a
mezcal contract.

They know what to do with the
product.

And the other is Regal Rogue of
vermouth brand.

You know, there's not many, the
most brands out there that have

a range anymore.
They used to be Balthazar and

that's now, you know, exited the
market.

They had a range of four
vermouths.

They're not in the market
anymore.

They're not that many great
vermouth brands that give you a

range of options.
And again somebody loves the

product.
You put a vermouth contract in

place and you know that you're
going to be in the house

Lagrini, the Martinis and
Manhattans, anything that's a

vermouth LED cocktail is going
to have a product in.

So there is a kind of the two
ways that we think as a

business.
One is house core contracts on

smaller categories and the other
is modifiers within within

cocktails.
What about?

If there is, let's say more of a
portfolio kind of contract, you

know, so that the big player is
having a vermouth, you know, to

your latest example, for
example, like, you know, how do

you manage to have that
conversation?

Because if they say, OK, I've
got whatever, I'm like Martini

as part of the contract with my
RAM, with Bacardi, for example,

How did you manage to have that
conversation?

Do you manage to separate that
category from the rest of the

deal or it's usually like a very
portfolio LED conversation that

they want to have?
No, I.

Think every bar and every
conversation is slightly

different.
You know, if if somebody has a

house the mood contract, that's
absolutely fine.

If we can't work together on
that line, that's absolutely

fine.
It it might well be that you're

interested in a portfolio deal
with our other brands.

You know, you might want to put
Amaro Santoni, Muyu and 30 and

40 into drinks and as a result,
we'll pull a commercial

agreement together to use those
products in modifiers.

Or you might be looking for a
house, house cider, but your

house the most contracts taken
like that.

This is the power of working in
a portfolio is if it's if it's

as tight and as small as ours
is, you're in every single

conversation.
And whenever we have a meeting

with a bar or a restaurant or a
supermarket or a independent

retailer, it doesn't take us
long to talk about the entire

portfolio because it's such a
small portfolio.

It's and together between the
bartender or the buyer and us,

we can work out pretty quickly
where those opportunities are.

And the the trick then is
pulling a commercial agreement

together that encompasses all of
those relevant brands.

If you were Amaro Santoni, which
is an Amaro from Tuscany, from

Simone Caparelli and the Santoni
family, who one of the oldest

Amaro producers in Italy, if
they were to go to market on

their own, that would be a
really, really tough gig just to

get the meeting.
You know, that's a really tough

gig.
If you're in the right

portfolio, which I believe they
are with Liala, you're in every

single conversation.
And it, it might be that

somebody, a lovely pub has a
side, a contract that we win and

they decided to put a spritz
menu in and also includes Amaros

Antoni and Regal Rogue in, in
some very simple spritzers with

Fever Tree, for example.
That's a really good point.

And back to your very, very
first question of the podcast on

how do you put a portfolio
together?

If you're going into it with
honesty at the front of your

mind, you need to be small.
You know, I just don't know how

a portfolio of 70 brands is, is,
is servicing all of those people

properly.
You know, the the key is a

smaller portfolio.
It's a lot to.

Unpack there on on what you
said, like the the first one is

that I mean, I'm also a big fan,
like whenever I go and sell on

behalf of brands on, you know,
portfolio, what I always say is

that, you know, I had this
conversation constantly, to be

honest, I was going to say
recently, but it's just like

constantly and just like, oh,
but we're going to a certain bar

and what's the objective there?
You know, what do you want to

get, you know, listed in that
bar?

No, OK, you can go with that
kind of like frame of mind.

Of course, you don't work just
like whistling and having a

promenade, you know, a passage
Java, you know, to the to the

bar.
But at the same time, you first

need to study the menu or the
back bar.

And then you need to have that
conversation to really

understand and, and in my
opinion, have open eyes and open

minds in terms of, OK, I would
have loved to sell in the gene

and this Scotch whisky, but
actually that's not possible.

And then I may go in with the
Ram first.

So I establish the relationship
with these guys.

And then little by little, like
it's actually it's funny because

in Napoleon's land there is a
way of saying like, it's like

the Nepolitan equivalent to the
foot in the door.

It's like you enter from the
side and then you open the door

and then you, you actually like
widen your shoulders and then

you really open the door.
You know, so it's really, you

managed to squeeze in the door
that was closing and it's like

on a lift now, you know, you
just go on the side.

You don't go with your head to
stop the, the, the closing

doors.
You know, you just go with the

elbow.
And then little by little, you

know, you just widen the the
door and you enter the lift now.

So is that kind of conversation.
And I really loved what you said

about, you know, like you may
want to go with a vermouth, but

then maybe it's not possible
there.

And that is something that I
want to discuss later in the

podcast.
It's like, how did you manage to

also navigate that conversation
with that vermouth brand owner

that actually want to say, want
to rule that conversation?

No, I want to be there in that
bar kind of thing, but let's

spark it for now.
But then the other thing is what

you were saying about having an
approach, a portfolio approach,

because how does it play in
terms of outlet selection?

You know, because some is a bit
of a probably like a catch 22

and probably you may have
certain type of brands that

actually go well together.
But it could also happen to you.

And more in general, maybe it's
not now in your portfolio, but

you may happen to you that it
could be like Italian

restaurants and Asian
restaurants, you know, for

example.
No, and it could be you, you

don't need a vermouth brand in
an Asian restaurant, but you

won't need it in an Italian
restaurant.

And then maybe your your sales
team has to split themselves

into very different kind of
categories or brand of, of

outlets.
Now, does that happen to you or

do you tend to consolidate into
a kind of like a middle ground

that is like for if, you know,
if you take a cocktail bar, that

space for all kind of
categories, smaller, bigger, you

know, interesting or, or Maine,
Then when you go in and you deep

dive into, I don't know, like a
burger joints that does

cocktails or an Italian
restaurant that does mainly

wines and some cocktails and so
on.

You know, does that play with
you as a distributor?

You know, do you do you allocate
different kind of approaches to

different kind of outlets?
Yeah.

Really good, good question.
I think when we first started,

we would, you know, separate
each sector.

You know, we would look at 5
star hotels, you'd separate

pubs, you'd have independent
retails, which is like bottle

shops.
You'd have on trade high volume

bars.
Let be a One or Stonegate.

What we realize over time is
actually what makes somebody

who's working for Liana really
good at their job is you have to

be kind of a social chameleon.
You've got your patch that you

look after and you're
responsible for everything in

that patch.
And the beauty of that is one

day you'll be talking to
somebody that owns a bottle

shop.
You need to know which products

in the portfolio suit that
bottle shop.

So that conversation you'd,
you'd almost certainly lead with

ready to drink cocktails from
Terran Elementary.

That's a natural home for that
that style of product.

There's not many bars in the
world that are going to swap out

their bartenders and put some
bottle cocktails in.

Like there are some examples,
but that's a hard sell.

Whereas a bottle shop that's all
about quality, that wants

incredible high quality RTDS,
you lead the conversation with

with that, you then might see
that there's a space for the

moose and there might be a draw
for mezcal in that in that

bottle shop.
How much side are you going to

sell in there?
None, like, let's be honest

about it.
Not many people are going to

walk into the whiskey exchange
and look for a can of cider

anytime soon.
Then you might walk down the

street and have a meeting with a
pub and it's a spit and sawdust,

you know, proper old boozer.
But they want to have a really

good quality cider.
And again, you know, you're

leading that conversation with
Stanford Orchards as the house

cider and there might be an
opportunity to do some simple,

simple spritzers with probably
Regal Rogue, but I promise you

that there's, there's not going
to be much mezcal sold in that

pub anytime soon.
So that's the beauty of, of, of

the job is being able to
recognize that all, all the

venues that are selling booze,
as long as there's they're at a

certain level of premium,
premium premiumization, because

our products are not cheap.
You know, as long as they're at

that threshold, then anything is
an opportunity and your job is

really, you know, fitting the
brand to the right partner and

that's, that's the key.
It's very interesting because it

is, you know, ultimately going
back to also what you were

saying before about the, you
know, you need to have that kind

of like small selection of
brands, you know, like, because

you cannot really have like so
many brands on, on that.

And then you can have a very
interesting conversation because

then you can know where to place
your brand in your portfolio.

And I guess also like, you know,
you become the curator when you

are the kind of distributor like
you are, you are also a curator

of selection.
So you can have that kind of

conversation.
And then it makes even like, it

makes you as a distributor even
stronger.

No, I would say because, you
know, you have that kind of

reputation at the at the end.
I, I, I always remembered, like

back in Rome, there is this wine
shop and, and I remember, you

know, those bags, you know, like
the, the, the plastic bags that

they were having.
And first of all, like they were

the highest quality plastic bags
out there because they were

supposed to carry bottles.
So they were not going to break

anytime soon.
But the logos on that bottle

meant something.
You know, like if you went for

dinner at somebody's place, just
showing up with.

With that kind of bag, whatever.
Like when they were unwrapping

and taking that bottle out, even
if they didn't know the bottle,

it was already a guarantee that
if Chris knows about wine or he

doesn't know about wine, this is
not going to be a bad wine a

couple of years.
Ago we had a month where we were

contacted by the biggest
independent rum brands, the

biggest independent vodka brand
and one of the biggest

independent gin brands, all all
in the same month.

We went through the process with
each of them understanding the

size of the opportunity.
We decided to go with none of

them because our whole business
plan would have, although

financially in the short term it
would have been amazing.

Our whole portfolio.
Would have been completely

unbalanced and everything that
makes Liana Liana would have

been completely compromised and
it wouldn't have happened

overnight, but the the business
would have drastically changed

and we would have been competing
overnight with, you know,

mangrove speciality brands,
cask, you know, those big guys

who are fighting over the big
categories.

We would have been straight in
that same conversation and that

that was the best thing we've
ever done was walking away

focusing on building, building
challenger brands and smaller

categories and sticking true to
what we do really, really well.

And that that's given us great
guidance for the future as well.

That's good to.
Know for another player he would

have been probably, you know,
like a different kind of story

and different kind of
conversation but knowing what

she wants is very important.
You know the reason that's.

Relevant to what you're saying,
Chris, is the credibility that

comes with that is where our
value is added.

When somebody gets a message
from one of our team, you want

to meet up, It's such an easy
thing to say yes to because

we're not going to try to talk
to you about pink gin and we're

not going to try to talk to you
about Scotch and we're not going

to try to talk to you about your
house lager because that's not

what we do.
And you know you're going to

have some really interesting
conversations and there will be

lots of opportunities.
And we're not going to try and

force something on you that
you're already tied up with.

And if we lose that part of our
business, getting the meetings

is going to be going to going to
get harder for sure.

It makes me.
Think about, you know,

promotions at work now, you
know, like sometimes like when

I'm working with brands and you
know, the importer distributors

also here in Czech Republic and
I see a promotion.

I used to be a corporate guy,
like, you know, climbing the

ladder until I realized it
wasn't for me.

You know, I ticked the box.
I had this senior director,

whatever it meant role of my CV
and then all of a sudden I said,

is that it?
You know, I'm part of the

management team.
Is that it?

I don't like it, you know, out
and it took me a while.

I mean, it was a bit of a long
now I'm making sound easy, but

it was a bit of a, you know,
struggle for me mentally.

But before when whenever a
colleague or a friend what would

get a promotion, it would be,
oh, well done, may you know,

well done, you know.
But now my question to them is

that did you want that
promotion?

Yeah.
Or did they?

Promoted you?
Did you actually want it?

Because sometimes it could be
you are, I don't know, a brand

manager, you become marketing
manager or you are a brand

ambassador, you become brand
manager, you know, and you know

what you're going into, You
know, to your point, you know,

like you could have taken this
kind of like blind leap of faith

and say we can do it.
We're going to work with the

biggest vodka, you know,
independent vodka brand and

we'll fix it as we go.
But probably you knew already

that you didn't want it.
No, but sometimes it's very, it

takes a lot of maturity to take
that kind of decision because it

it really say like, OK, like do
I want this, you know, do I want

to manage?
I don't know my 4 colleagues.

Yeah, or.
Do I want to, do I want to have

like those huge conversation?
Do I want to enter the Champions

League of contract fighting for
a main category of that bar?

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode 62 and 63.
If you enjoyed it, I have a

small ask.
Please rate it, comment and

share it with friends, and come
back next week for more insights

about building brands from the
bottom up.

One last thing, if you enjoyed
this podcast, you will also like

the Mafia Drinks Guides.
You can subscribe free or paid

on Mafia Drinks com.