267: From $14/hour to $65/hour as a Freelance Sample Maker (Even Though She Was Scared AF to Charge More)

In Part 1, Caroline quit her underpaid factory job to run her freelance biz full-time. But what happened next? This episode is where it *really* gets juicy. Caroline opens up about the exact moment she raised her rate to $65/hour—and how terrifying it felt to say it out loud. She nearly backed down. She literally shook through the call. But she did it anyway.

And now? She’s getting clients directly from LinkedIn, turning down work that doesn’t fit, and building a business that finally *feels* good. If you’ve ever been scared AF to charge more, set boundaries, or step into your power—this episode is for you.

Resources:
020: The Step by Step Guide to Fabric Sourcing for Your Fashion Brand (with low minimums) with Jay Arbetman
266: From Self-Doubt and a Factory Job to Freelance Biz Owner: Caroline’s One-Year Transformation

About Caroline:
Caroline Kuhlman is a sample maker who specializes in collaborating with pattern makers to bring designs from 2D concepts to real-life garments—faster than factories can. Through her hands-on process, clients gain valuable insights that help prevent costly production mistakes. Caroline loves bringing the tech pack, pattern, and materials together for the first time—and proudly calls herself a sewing nerd at your service.

Connect with Caroline:
Email her at [e-mail]
Check out her website

Follow on Instagram 

Connect on LinkedIn

Download my Freelance Price List just for fashion (it’s free!): sewheidi.com/price

Creators and Guests

Host

Heidi Weinberg {Sew Heidi}

Heidi (aka Sew Heidi) is a self-taught freelance fashion designer who built a six-figure business without a degree, portfolio, or industry connections. After years of burnout in the fashion industry, she went freelance—and never looked back. Now, she helps other designers ditch toxic jobs, land better clients, and build flexible careers they love. Through her podcast, courses, and resources, Heidi has helped thousands of designers take control of their fashion path and finally get paid what they’re worth.

What is Fashion Designers Get Paid: Build Your Fashion Career On Your Own Terms?

This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers, textile designer and beyond) who want more flexibility in their career while still doing work they love.

You'll learn how to build a freelance fashion business, so you can do the work you love on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk).

Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want.

Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)

Heidi [00:00:00]:
This is part two of a two part episode. So if you haven't yet listened, go Back to episode 266 and hit play on part one where we talked about Caroline quitting her underpaid factory job to run her freelance business full time. But what happened next, this episode is where it gets really deep. Caroline opens up about the exact moment she raised her rate to $65 an hour and how terrifying it felt to say that out loud. It literally made her shake, but she did it anyway. Now she's getting clients directly from LinkedIn, turning down work that doesn't fit, and building a business that finally feels good. If you've ever been scared AF to charge more, set boundaries, or step up to your full potential, this episode is for you. Let's get to it.

Heidi [00:00:46]:
Had I said to you on that call, like, in a year you're going to quit your job and have a full blown business, it sounds like you wouldn't have gone for it. You weren't there mentally, I, I probably.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:00:56]:
Would have like, laughed and like shrunken in my seat and put up my shoulders like this. Yeah, yeah.

Heidi [00:01:04]:
Although, you know, who am I to say that that's gonna happen in a year too? Right. Like, obviously I have big hopes for everybody, but.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:01:12]:
But you've seen that happen for your students.

Heidi [00:01:14]:
I have. But everybody's path is so different. Yes, because there's so many variables. Right? So many variables. Your offer, your skills, your expertise, how much you're willing to push through. Some of the discomfort is a huge component. I mean, you talked about like trembling on these customer research calls and customer research calls. You're not there to pitch your services.

Heidi [00:01:38]:
You're not talking about money. You're air quote, just asking questions and leading with curiosity so you can learn where your services can fit into the market and how to discover these pain points and problems you can solve. Yet you were like so anxious.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:01:53]:
It was, it was, it was scary for me.

Heidi [00:01:56]:
How did you push through and like actually do those things? Because I see a lot of people like literally get crippled and they, they can't actually do the thing. It's very hard.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:02:07]:
I think that sort of, I've done a lot of like therapy and mental health work on myself. And I remember in high school, like, I didn't know, I didn't know about mental health. I didn't know that I had depression, anxiety. And so the way, the way that I got through school and like kept my grades up and things was just push, push, push. That's all I knew. And so I wish that I had support and knew what was going on with my brain because it was extremely difficult and I would never wish that on anybody. But it did sort of give me an ability to push myself through super hard stuff, but also, like, really numb out. So I kind of coped with pushing through that stuff by numbing in unhealthy ways.

Heidi [00:03:27]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:03:28]:
So that was sort of how I, quote, unquote, balanced. It was then to sort of quote, unquote, give myself a break by not feeling anything, which was a bad cycle. That I finally did get help for my mental health after college.

Heidi [00:03:46]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:03:47]:
So I somehow I made it through that without understanding what was going on in my brain. So maybe it's. It's genetic. I don't know. My mom grew up on a farm and then became a doctor in the 70s. So sometimes I think she, like, I got this drive from her because first she became a teacher and then she became a doctor. I don't know.

Heidi [00:04:10]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:04:11]:
Like, to me, she's. She's amazing.

Heidi [00:04:18]:
How. Where are you now? Like, with some of these calls and stuff? Do you still get similar levels of anxiety? Are you open to talk about where you're at now? Is it.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:04:28]:
Sure. I. I've been working really hard on therapy. I did emdr. I've been doing neurofeedback therapy, which has been super helpful. Highly recommend to all the nerds out there. It's actually looking at the brain and then using that information to help me work on specific areas of my brain. So that's very tangential explanation of it, but for me, it's been really helpful.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:05:02]:
And so I think. I think those are. One of the pieces of the puzzle is the mental health. And then another piece is that I sort of am in a place where I can, like, allow myself to accept and acknowledge that I do have skills that are valuable. And I wouldn't have been able to say that a year ago. I didn't have perspective, I didn't have confidence, I didn't have. I really had no idea what my niche could be. I mean, I had been working on tech packs and flats, and I was, like, so scared because I thought, I'm not good with computers.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:05:52]:
That's not my skill set. And I felt like that was where I could see an opening. But then now I get to use the skills that I have that I'm good at, which is sewing. But I have learned, like, I've redone my website by myself.

Heidi [00:06:14]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:06:14]:
So that's big for me. Yeah. But okay, so the mental health and the sort of acknowledging my own skills. It's so hard for me to say that about myself. And then. And I really think the repetition, like you say, it's like it's a muscle and you can build it. And I really think that is. That metaphor is spot on because the experience of doing it again and again adds up to something.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:06:56]:
It just does.

Heidi [00:06:57]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:07:06]:
It compounds. I learned. I'm not sure exactly when. I still get super nervous for meetings, but I'm not physically shaking.

Heidi [00:07:24]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:07:24]:
So that's, that's progress for me.

Heidi [00:07:26]:
Totally.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:07:27]:
And I had a. I had a meeting with a brand owner last week. She somehow, she found me on LinkedIn, found my website and scheduled discovery call all within one day. Amazing. Which was really cool. Yeah. So I had, I had to just be ready and hop on with her that afternoon.

Heidi [00:07:46]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:07:46]:
I didn't have like 48 hours to research, research. So I had looked at her website and I had sort of my customer research questions in front of me and I was able to talk to her sort of on the fly. And I think the experience of doing, doing that type of like doing calls with other people for a year, I was able to get to that place. So I think, I think it's can add up. And it's sort of like sometimes they say, like, oh, exercise will help depression. And it's like, but when, when, how, when is it going to add up to helping? And I don't. I wish I could say that it was four calls or four months of pushing through, but I don't, I don't know if it's that easy to quantify, but it did, it did compound.

Heidi [00:08:57]:
It's just slow compounding over time. Small, steady, consistent steps.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:09:03]:
Yes.

Heidi [00:09:03]:
Yes. Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:09:05]:
And I think, and I really think support, support from other people. And I think it's. It's hard to. It's hard to trust people. It's scary, but it's so worth it because when you are vulnerable enough to let somebody support you and know what you're struggling with, that's when you can receive help. And in every area of my life, that's how I've gotten here, is with so, so much help. So I don't want anyone to hear that. I just pulled.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:09:47]:
Hold myself up by my bootstraps because I really had to be vulnerable and ask for help in every area. And that is not easy. It's definitely vulnerable. And I think maybe as Americans, we're not good at that. We have this bootstrap story in our DNA. But asking for help and getting support Is everything.

Heidi [00:10:22]:
Yeah, I'm a huge believer in that. I mean, I still work with coaches and, like, people behind the scenes. Like, I just. And I still struggle with, like, oh, do I know how to do this? Do I really have anything to offer? Like, I think especially in women, it's a real. Those are real emotions, those are real things. And I. I think it's almost. Almost impossible to do any of these big things on your own and to work through.

Heidi [00:10:53]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:11:00]:
I completely agree. And I think that's what's special about the FAST community, is that people are there to support each other. I also want to say I had never made an online friend before.

Heidi [00:11:13]:
Oh, really?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:11:14]:
Yeah. So that part of the reason why I had never, like, talked. I don't know, I never played, like, games or. I don't know.

Heidi [00:11:24]:
You weren't on social media or anything?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:11:26]:
I. Yeah, I had never connected with somebody. Wow. Online. So that was totally sort of like a new frontier that I had never. I'm just not naturally hanging out on the computer and a little bit more introverted, so. But it's been. I mean, it's been wonderful to get to know different freelancers from all over the country, all over the world.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:12:00]:
It really feels like I'm just in awe of how people are supportive of each other in the fast, in the circle community. And. And I've had generally, like, a really good experience on LinkedIn too, which I was super scared of, because I thought, oh, social media, it's going to be really intense and it's going to be this divisive place and kind of, you have to kind of fight through it. For me, it hasn't been that way, so I'm thankful for that.

Heidi [00:12:38]:
That's amazing. So there's a couple specific things I want to hit on. One is you said you were, like, thinking about how you needed to learn flats and tech packs and all this computer stuff, and that's not really your jam. And so I remember you and I even talked for a little bit about, like, do you. Because you're like, I know how to do patterns, but, like, on paper.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:13:10]:
Right.

Heidi [00:13:11]:
And that, I think, created an obstacle in your brain of, like, don't I need to know how to do digital patterns? Like, do I need to learn clothes? Like, all these things? And where are you at with that? Are you still, like, you're just getting along, doing all your stuff? Like, and the pattern makers, I believe, mail you the physical patterns. Like, you don't even have a. I don't have a water or, like, talk to us about this because I think a lot of people are listening and they're like, wait, but I would need all these things, like a plotter and. No, CLO and all this software and all the things. So can you explain a little bit of that?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:13:50]:
Yes.

Heidi [00:13:51]:
And where your head maybe is at now with your digital skills and the need or the lack of the need to know them versus where it was a year, six, eight months ago.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:14:02]:
So I think the difference between me looking at your free content online was me seeing this huge hole that we're in fashion school. We didn't learn how to do tech packs. We didn't learn flats in the computer. I did hand drawn, flat design. Everything was, you know, Prismacolor markers or watercolor, what have you. So I was noticing this huge technology hole that I felt like I had and that the industry had moved on to these technologies that were really important and they made sense to me. I can totally see the value of Illustrator flats and tech packs in Excel. And so I felt, I felt like that's what.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:15:01]:
I don't know, that's what I need to learn. And then when we started talking, I think looking back, I think you were not, maybe you were noticing that I have the most experience with actually making things, making products. And so that's when we started talking more about the pattern making aspect. And so I only know how to do it, the paper pattern making. And so that felt like another whole, like, oh, I wish I had learned CLO or Browzwear or one of these programs. And then, okay, so Scott. Yeah, I signed up. I paid for a CLO course that I have never taken.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:15:53]:
So I bought it and I didn't even realize that my computer was so old that it could not, I could not download clo.

Heidi [00:16:01]:
Oh.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:16:02]:
So now I do have a new laptop and I could download it if I wanted to, but I'm focusing on sample making. And so I. I don't know pattern.

Heidi [00:16:14]:
Making software and that's not been an issue.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:16:18]:
No, no. I still don't have a plotter. I do have someone who can print patterns out for me. So that way, someone I trust because I've tried printing them out at FedEx and they don't have the capacity to dial in the scale and make sure everything is going to measure exactly right. So that way I can, they can send me the pattern file and I can print it out. It's going to add a little bit of extra time. So I just am upfront about that with them. That it's sort of like a separate service, but I can take care of it.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:17:10]:
So that feels good that I have that resource, because at first I was kind of planning to say, I need you to send me the paper pattern, and that's the one option, but maybe it's better to just say, send me the paper pattern. Almost like that's how I work.

Heidi [00:17:30]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:17:31]:
Because now. Now I. I think people can get mixed up when there's so many options. Or I'm. I'm. I'm a little bit. I could probably be a little bit too flexible and say, whatever works for you. And so I.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:17:51]:
Yeah, I've. I've. I think now I'm at a place where I can say I'm using technology like LinkedIn, and I have a website and I have a business email through Google Workspace, and that's what I use, and that's what I need for now. Not everyone has to be a technology wizard.

Heidi [00:18:26]:
Yeah. I love that.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:18:30]:
And thank you for helping me value my skills, because I really couldn't see it.

Heidi [00:18:37]:
You're welcome. I remember when we first talked, I said, there is a need. Sample making is a pain point. And I go, there is a need. And I wasn't sure exactly where it was going to socket in. I did think there was potential with the agencies, but the pattern makers just make so much sense. And I know we explored, I think, basically those three brands directly. Pattern makers and agencies.

Heidi [00:19:06]:
Yes. Okay, so next question. I want to go back to. You mentioned at Gall's, you were making $14 an hour.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:19:16]:
Mm.

Heidi [00:19:16]:
Can we talk about the first project opportunity you had? And you came to me and you said, heidi, I think I'm thinking about charging this. What do you think? And I said a different number. Can I tell those numbers?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:19:27]:
Yes.

Heidi [00:19:27]:
Do you remember them?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:19:28]:
Yes.

Heidi [00:19:28]:
Okay, so do I. I remember them vividly. So you're making $14 an hour, and you're like, hey, I'm thinking about charging 20. Which you were like, I feel like. That feels really good because it's like, you know, almost 50% more than what I'm making at Gauze. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're gonna go in for 50. And you were like, my jar hit the floor.

Heidi [00:19:49]:
What was your emotion at that point?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:19:51]:
I. My whole body tensed up. My. Like, I. Remembering it right now. I'm all crunched up in my body. It was. It was scary.

Heidi [00:20:03]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:20:03]:
To think about asking that. I think I had waited till the end of the call to even tell you that I had a client. And you were like, you did you did.

Heidi [00:20:15]:
We had our. Oh my God, I totally remember now. We had our call and we're just catching up and I'm like, how's this going? And then you're like, oh, by the way. And I was like, what the fuck? We just had a 30 minute call and you saved this for the last 60 seconds?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:20:34]:
Yeah, I was. Was scared of. Felt too good to be true. And I had a really hard time sending that invoice for the work.

Heidi [00:20:49]:
And then what happened?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:20:51]:
And then he paid it. I sent like a little invoice template that I found for free online, sent it to him, and I mean like in 10 minutes, he paid it and had no questions.

Heidi [00:21:09]:
Didn't even think twice.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:10]:
No. Didn't blink.

Heidi [00:21:11]:
About the 50 an hour.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:12]:
Yeah, yeah. And so I think it maybe was four or six hours of sewing. I think I was doing some zippers and sewing in labels.

Heidi [00:21:24]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:25]:
Like for a large quantity of items.

Heidi [00:21:27]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:29]:
And he paid it.

Heidi [00:21:30]:
And he had. You had signed up to the work before. You guys hadn't even talked about price, right?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:35]:
I had totally.

Heidi [00:21:36]:
And then you just had to like blindly send this invoice with a dollar amount on it.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:38]:
Yes.

Heidi [00:21:39]:
Yeah. Which is not the ideal way to do it.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:41]:
Not. Not good. Not good.

Heidi [00:21:43]:
But it went okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:44]:
It did.

Heidi [00:21:44]:
So then going forward, do you remember some of those first conversations and. Or sending those first proposals where you're like putting forward, like, this is my hourly rate. And like what that was like, that.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:21:55]:
Was so hard because I really didn't have a good idea of how long things were going to take me. So. So I was trying to provide a time estimate and then asking for a 50 deposit up front. And so if I was estimating that it was going to take me eight hours to do the sample at $50 an hour, I was asking for half of that. And so I definitely spent a lot more time just kind of freaking out over every single detail on those first projects. So I spent way more time on them than. But I noticed there too, like, I can sort of get through a project without stalling out on like a tiny detail and sort of spiraling and worrying and then just sort of being paralyzed for 30 minutes and not. Not making progress.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:23:02]:
So that has slowly gotten better. It helps that now I can do my work during the day instead of working nine to five and then coming home and doing more work.

Heidi [00:23:17]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:23:17]:
Which it was at first. It was really actually so exciting and rewarding. Like I felt like, oh my gosh, like I have purpose beyond this, this other job that it doesn't have a creative element to it and feels is very repetitive and not the most. I did have wonderful co workers there, so that. That made it. That made it good. But I remember being like, excited to come home and do more work.

Heidi [00:23:54]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:23:54]:
I was like, wow. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So that was sort of like a new side of myself that I got to open up or see.

Heidi [00:24:14]:
Yeah. Okay. Huge transformations in the pricing component. And I believe you've since raised your rate, if not once, maybe more than once.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:24:26]:
Just once.

Heidi [00:24:26]:
Just once.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:24:27]:
Okay.

Heidi [00:24:27]:
We're probably due because what was happening is you were doing the 50 an hour and every time you were saying it or singing, there was never any question, which is a sign that it should be a little higher.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:24:41]:
I was like, oh, no. Oh no. She's gonna know that nobody's pushed back and she's gonna have to raise it.

Heidi [00:24:46]:
Because you're just like getting the projects. So then what happened? You raised it.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:24:52]:
So I raised it to 65. I did talk with a pattern maker this summer who. It's interesting. She's based in New York City and she is. Was saying that the brands that she. The brands are like always trying to do everything for like the least amount of money possible. And really, really. So she said that might rate wouldn't fit into her pattern making service right now.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:25:26]:
But she also told me that my rate is like, comparable to what sample. Sample makers and sample rooms charge in New York City. So that was really fascinating. And I got to thank her for that feedback because that's just so interesting to know.

Heidi [00:25:40]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:25:43]:
And so that that interaction, even though it didn't result in a project, was.

Heidi [00:25:49]:
So.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:25:53]:
So rewarding that she acknowledged me and my skills. And she. She did look at my website where I have pictures of things that I've sewn and it's. It's sort of the intangible value of just getting to talk to someone like her. Like, I love pattern making. I do kind of practice it myself just to keep my skills sharp and just something I enjoy. And so getting to talk to her was just wonderful. And she didn't have to say nice things about my skills, but she did.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:26:37]:
Yeah.

Heidi [00:26:40]:
I think it's. It's good to. You don't want everybody to say yes and that your price is fine. Like you. You want to be out of budget for some people, I believe I. I've heard some sales experts even say upwards of like, you want more than 50% of people to say you're too expensive. Like if you're closing about 40% okay, then you're in a pricing sweet spot. I think I have always kind of said 60 to 70%.

Heidi [00:27:20]:
And it's obviously individual for the person and their comfort zone and where they want to be and you know, because obviously then you have to take more calls and more people say no. But then the calls that you do, the projects you do get are paid at a higher rate, et cetera. So it's a balance you have to kind of figure out for yourself. But bottom line is that you don't want to always hear. Yes. And if you do, then up time.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:27:46]:
To raise the price. Yeah.

Heidi [00:27:49]:
I'd also love to hear about like LinkedIn and you know, where you're finding clients and like connecting with people and building these relationships and getting work from. I know you made a comment earlier that like, now that you have the space to, now that you've quit your job, but you have a little bit more time and the space to like post regularly on LinkedIn. That's been great to bring some work in and stuff. So can you talk a little bit about all of that?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:28:23]:
Yes. I think the client that I was or the potential client that I was just mentioning that I didn't get a project with, I think a year ago I wouldn't have been able to see that in a positive light. And so just a reflection that, that, that feels different. And I can notice that about myself, which is wild too, just to notice. But love that. So she. I got to. Okay LinkedIn.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:28:56]:
So. So you were encouraging me to just post about like nerdy sewing stuff that I love to talk about. And I, I had a hard time getting in the mindset of this sort of sewing stuff lives in my brain and it feels like, it feels like the everyday scenery to me. So I don't see it. Like to me it's very interesting and I love it, but I don't see it as maybe novel or interesting to post about. So that, that was quite like. I could hear what you were saying to encourage me and I could get that I should talk about sewing because that is the skill that I'm offering and sewing so people can understand and sort of see, see me talking about what I do, but getting to the headspace of posting about it was a process. So now.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:30:01]:
But I started to try to post every week and I definitely did not end up posting every week. It was really hard.

Heidi [00:30:08]:
This is why you were a gall still.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:30:09]:
Yes. Yes, it was really hard to, to post every week. Like we even talked about, should I split it up? How can I Make this happen for myself. I also struggled with feeling, like, exposed, talking about my work on there, even though it's not my personal life. So I had a lot of mental blocks to work through on with LinkedIn. But I. So I started posting about just, just trying some things. And I think, I think it's, it's also a muscle where I, I was trying to do it every week and I didn't, didn't succeed every week, but, but I was like, okay, you know, that.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:31:01]:
Or sometimes I was trying to post every Wednesday, sometimes I would get it to it by Friday, and then the next week I would, I might miss. But I, I kept trying. And then I posted one post I did. I said like, nerd alert. And then I put the little emoji with the nerd glasses, which is my favorite emoji. And then I said like a sewing topic. And that was the post that maybe had the most impressions or likes or some kind of engagement metric. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna try this again next week.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:31:40]:
And so that's been, that's been my main post every week is like my nerd alert.

Heidi [00:31:47]:
I love it.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:31:48]:
So that gives me a little bit of framework, something familiar to come back to. Almost like a little bit of a series. Like, oh, there she is again, posting her nerd alert about something sewing related. It's funny because when I post a picture of myself sewing, it gets more likes than when I just post a picture of without me in it. So that's like, ooh. I did sort of a skill swap with a friend who's a photographer. She took pictures of me in my workspace and I altered a dress for her. And oh my gosh, like that morning, I was so scared I wanted to cancel.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:32:48]:
Like, I felt sick. I did. That was hard for me. But now she was wonderful. And like, she was really good. She was like, okay, do this with your shoulders, do this with your chin, do this with your neck. Because I was like, I was all crunched up and unnatural looking. So she helped me and I was great.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:33:14]:
She was just helped me be able to go through with taking the pictures. So those have been helpful for my LinkedIn to showing me at the sewing machine and at the cutting table. And so it's sort of almost like a process of integration of like, showing, seeing myself, doing what I do and talking about my skills. It's like, I don't know. I guess I feel like when I wasn't doing well, I was like. I would often describe myself as fragmented, like just bits Pieces. And, and so this feels like integration. Coming, coming together.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:34:12]:
Yeah. And so maybe people wouldn't expect to hear that about sort of like this podcast about work. But I think nothing is, I think it's all mixed together, especially with freelance. There's no separation between work and your life and it's an, it's all mixed together. I think in corporate you kind of almost have like a false sense of like this big separation between the two. Or at least that's how I felt.

Heidi [00:34:41]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:34:43]:
It felt very like self contained at work and then home was this separate self contained thing. But I think it's, it's all mixed together. But now it's in a good way because it's sort of coming, coming together, sort of as myself. So that might sound weird to talk about with LinkedIn, but it's sort of, I mean, I'm using my brain to do LinkedIn and my, you know, mental health. It's all, it's all mixed together what I'm noticing.

Heidi [00:35:21]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:35:22]:
And so I guess I can't separate sort of the experience of taking the photos and how scary that was and then, and then posting them and then being glad that I did. That's sort of like a wild. It's nice to get the opportunity to talk about it and reflect and kind of notice. And I think posting when people are engaging with it, it is rewarding. Like I feel like, oh my gosh, they someone related to what I said or they think the same thing about their favorite sewing tools or they also love these rulers. And so that, that is sort of feels like connection with other people in the industry. And even though I'm in Virginia and I don't get, I haven't been able to meet most of these people. I did get to meet some of them at your event.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:36:40]:
Yeah. Which was awesome. But it's so cool to sort of feel, I experience it as sort of feeling connected to the industry and that is wonderful.

Heidi [00:36:54]:
Yeah. So if I'm not mistaken, most of your client work has come from some of these organic and then also some intentional conversations that you've initiated via LinkedIn. Ish. And maybe some other places. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:37:13]:
Yes. So I try to. Anybody who sends me a connect request, I try to start a conversation with them. Even if I. It seems like they're not a pattern maker. I just try to talk to them. So that's, I think, partly built using the muscle of talking to people that I don't know and engaging with them in like a friendly way, which Feels right to me. So I'm trying to use LinkedIn to build that skill to talk to people, because I think what I hear is that the more organic conversations on LinkedIn rather than hard, cold pitching, is sort of a good approach.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:38:05]:
And that feels good to me. So that I've been doing that. And then I think the posting is sort of almost like passive outreach, maybe because a couple pattern makers have reached out to me asking if I'm available to help them with sample making. So that makes me feel like I'm doing something right.

Heidi [00:38:31]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:38:33]:
And. And then I have also. The FAST community, I think, has been great for. For clients because I work more freelancer to free freelancer, and I think I feel like there's almost. When I'm building a relationship with a potential client, it's. Sometimes it's like brick by brick, sort of slow, not in a bad way. But I think them coming to trust me, especially if they've had a bad experience with another sample maker who said things were going well when they weren't.

Heidi [00:39:30]:
Does that happen a lot?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:39:32]:
There's one client that I really want who I know had a bad, bad experience.

Heidi [00:39:37]:
So that trust is a big.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:39:40]:
Is a big issue. And. And so I'm trying to be super aware of that and want the communication to feel really good. Like I'm asking a lot of questions and wanting to understand everything and that I'm not gonna just make a decision about something in the tech pack without asking. But I. So I think getting a client from the FAST community, it feels like almost some of those bricks are there to start with, to build upon, instead of starting from the ground, which is wonderful. And I think that supportiveness within the community. Community is just.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:40:36]:
It's just a special thing. People are there who, like, want to freelance and they want to work and they want to help each other, and that's real. Like, that sounds. I don't know. I hope people don't hear that. It sounds too good to be true, because people are in there helping each other every day.

Heidi [00:40:56]:
Yeah, it's a pretty phenomenal community.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:40:58]:
It's really happening. That's where I found my first two clients.

Heidi [00:41:07]:
And through fast.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:41:08]:
Yeah, the. The one. The one that we were talking about before where I wanted to charge $20. That person.

Heidi [00:41:16]:
That's right in Richmond.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:41:17]:
And then the other two. First two were from fast.

Heidi [00:41:21]:
Yeah, that's amaz. We talked about, like, this transition from working at Gall's to freelancing, and you told us the story of quitting the day of your trip. All the great things. But what I really want to dig into here last is like, so you sent me a message on LinkedIn announcing that you had quit your job. And you sent me this amazing message and it was so exciting and long and somehow it got lost in my LinkedIn inbox. And I felt terrible because literally it was like two months later. And I think one of your nerd alert posts came up on my feed and I was like, I'm gonna say hi to Caroline and there's something specific I wanted to say to you or ask you or tell you or something. And I go to my DMs and I see this message and I was like, what the what? And it was like, heidi, I just quit my job.

Heidi [00:42:28]:
And I was like, oh my God, this was too. And I remember. So I wrote back to you and I was like, I'm so sorry I didn't see this message. And I asked you how things were going and you explained some great things, but you also talked about some challenges. Challenges. And I want to be really frank about, like, you don't just quit your job and then tomorrow, boom, it's this perfect, smooth sailing, full time freelance business thing.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:42:56]:
No.

Heidi [00:42:57]:
So talk a little bit candidly, if you're willing about this is important. This, like, transition.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:43:04]:
Yes. So I. I was able to say yes to one of those client projects because I was leaving my job. So I had a project lined up for like the first little bit of July and then the rest of July I didn't have any work. So that was really difficult. The best way I can describe it is like I felt like I was lost at sea, like being tossed around in the waves. And it was like tumultuous. And so I was feeling guilty because I've been looking forward to it so long and I know that other freelancers would love to be in this opportunity.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:43:44]:
I was feeling scared. I was feeling so big, heavy, negative emotions. And I felt like. And I felt bad for having the emotions. And I was judging. It was. It was not. Not good.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:44:04]:
And so then in August, I sort of opened. Quit in June. So. Yeah. So June. So June. Right.

Heidi [00:44:18]:
Just trying to get the timeline here. To quit in June. July, you had a project, a little bit of space.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:44:22]:
And then I had a project at the beginning of July and not at the end of July.

Heidi [00:44:26]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:44:27]:
I had open space. So I used that time to, like, work on my website, put my portfolio on there and describe my services, which was good to, like, really think about. Okay, what are my services? Who is the audience that I'M trying to reach. So that was good. And it was a moment where I was thinking, okay, Heidi says you don't need a website to start freelancing. It's so true. I'm only working on this now, a year later.

Heidi [00:44:55]:
A year later, after you've quit your job?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:44:57]:
Yeah, my website was a student portfolio up until July of 2025.

Heidi [00:45:03]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:45:04]:
So it's. Yeah, it would have been a comfortable, safe feeling project to work on last summer, but I waited.

Heidi [00:45:13]:
But as you just mentioned, you. You took the time and mental space to really sit down and think about what are your services, who is your customer? And arguably had you sat down and done that a year ago, you wouldn't have known all those things. You have spent the last year learning the nuances of where your services best fit into the market, who the customer is that you're talking to, what exactly are their pain points and challenges, and how you can speak to that in your marketing materials, which. Yes. Your website is one of your marketing materials, so you're able to build it in such a more impactful way. Yes. Okay, so you sat down to do that in July.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:45:53]:
Yes, so I worked on that. And then. Oh, also I should say that I did. I started working like a retail job on Saturdays in March of this year.

Heidi [00:46:03]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:46:04]:
So I still do that one or two days a week. So that has been sort of like a buffer thing. Little bit of income coming twice a month that I know is coming. So I, Yeah, I do that one or two days a week. And. But I, I kind of panicked and I. In August, I said yes to all the things. I said yes to dogs and sitting, cat sitting.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:46:38]:
I said yes to like, any, any income stream. Oh, yeah. So I had. Someone was out of town at my little retail job, so I picked up a bunch of extra hours and then I did. There had been a. That I had agreed to do in May that kept changing, changing, changing scope and everything about it changing. And so then that finally sort of got solidified and I needed to do.

Heidi [00:47:18]:
That work sample making project.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:47:20]:
So I had agreed to do the pattern and it was a custom garment. So I did the pattern and made the garment and then. And so that suddenly sort of solidified in August. And so then I was doing. Basically made myself working three jobs again, which is another reason that I. In April of this year, I started to get really exhausted. And so I stuck it out until June. But in August or in April this year, I sort of had a moment where I was like, I can't do this I can't do this forever.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:48:03]:
I can't work three jobs. It's just not possible.

Heidi [00:48:07]:
I can't do all freelancing and your retail.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:48:10]:
Retail. Okay.

Heidi [00:48:10]:
It's a lot. Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:48:12]:
And so that helped me make the decision, too, in June to leave. But then I overcorrected. Is probably too gentle. I, like, freaked out in August and did way too many things. And so then this project that had suddenly sort of solidified and I needed to get done, I got sick and I couldn't work on it. And then it was late, and so that was horrible, horrible feeling. I had to tell her that it's going to be late and that I'm the problem because I'm sick. And.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:48:54]:
And so, you know, laying there, not feeling well, I was like, okay, I kind of did this to myself. And I started to. And I didn't manage the project well. I didn't ask about the budget until it came. I had finished the custom garment, and I added. I had specifically not added up my hours during the project because I was scared about how much time it was taking.

Heidi [00:49:34]:
Did they know the hourly rate at all or anything?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:49:38]:
She did know my hourly rate, and they had given me a deposit.

Heidi [00:49:41]:
Okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:49:42]:
But I. This was a complex garment, and I had done the pattern, then the measurements for the individual changed. So I redid the pattern and then did sort of did a sample in cheap fabric and then made it in the. The. The final fabric. So this was. It was like over 50 hours of work. And so I was avoiding adding it up and.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:50:17]:
And letting my own self know how much time it was taking. And I hadn't been keeping the client updated on how much time it was taking. And so then when I got. When I finally finished the project, I, like, was like, oh, okay, it's complete. And then I realized, oh, my gosh, I need to add up these hours. And it was a big, big, big number. Big, huge number. And so I realized that that was a big mistake that I didn't keep her updated on the hours.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:50:49]:
And, like, I avoided letting myself know how much time it was taking because that was uncomfortable for me, which was bad for the client, which was bad for the project and everything. So this is when Community comes back in, because I talked to other freelancers and I was like, hey, guys, I messed this up. What should I do? Because I was, like, so frazzled and upset and sick. And then. And then I had. To me, it was. I'm calling it burnout, because I sort of felt like I didn't feel anything anymore. About freelancing.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:51:39]:
Like I was so scary. Like I felt like numb, but I knew that it was scary that I wasn't feeling anything. So it's not that I fully didn't care. It was like my brain was so overloaded that like I couldn't feel anything.

Heidi [00:51:59]:
Just trying to protect you.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:52:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm calling this burnout feeling, is that I over overextended and then I kind of had nothing left in the tank. So that's when I got super honest with other freelancers. I was like, hey guys, I messed this up. What should I do? And so it was wonderful because they asked me so many questions. They wanted to understand the whole situation. And of course I didn't feel any information that I wasn't supposed to and protecting the client, but enough for them to understand exactly what I was dealing with and so that they could give me advice when I need it. And I was specifically asking for advice.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:52:46]:
Please help me, please help me with what to do and even like wording, how should I say this? And so they helped me come up with a plan. And so I sent her an email, my contact with the client, and I sent it to her and I said, can we please meet to talk about, I don't remember if I said the budget or my invoice or my hours, something along those lines. And so the next morning I had to meet with her and tell her in person, tell her face to face what happened. And. And yeah, she was not pleased, but she was super, also super nice to me. And so. And so I tried to explain, or I did explain, what I was thinking and what I used the time on. So I told her my perspective and then she got to ask me questions and she sort of was like, oh, yeah, okay, the client, the individual changed their measurements and then you sort of had to rework that.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:54:08]:
And then. And this is a complex garment that had a lot going on with it, style and fabric wise. So. So I felt like, because I reached out and asked for support, like I was able to move forward with that not good situation, that bad situation, and feel like, okay, I did the best I could there. Yeah, so that was super difficult. And yeah, so it was way outside of their budget. And so she said that she would reach out to the financial decision maker at the brand and so figured it out from there. And I decided to say she had asked me about my availability for other projects.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:55:18]:
And so I told her, like, I know this is outside of your budget and maybe you can see this as an investment in you guys and that I want to partner with you and work with you going forward. And so I would love to do another project with you guys and I hope that we can work that out. So that's how I was looking at it for myself is that I was investing in this client relationship and I'm not going to get paid for that, but that was on me.

Heidi [00:55:47]:
So did you not get paid for the project at all?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:55:49]:
So I did, I did get paid for the project, but certainly not all the hours that I, I see I worked.

Heidi [00:55:55]:
Okay. But what I think is amazing is like how self aware you were either partially during parts of it, I think, or maybe it's moir came afterwards and how much you just fucking owned that. Right. Like you, you made some mistakes. We all up. Right?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:56:23]:
Yes, yes.

Heidi [00:56:25]:
And you like recognize that you're very self aware of all the little nuances and steps along the way, even if it was after the fact as you explain it now. But then you reached out, you got help and you went and you own that with the client. You were like, I messed up. Here's what happened. I'm sorry. And you, you gave yourself a chance to explain your side and also hear their side and, and really protect the relationship which is the foundation of all of this stuff. Right. All these bricks that you put down.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:56:57]:
Right.

Heidi [00:56:58]:
That's what I want to maintain that.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:57:00]:
Kind of set as my goal to try to reach with the ongoing interaction. So there has not been another project and maybe there won't be, which is their choice. And I totally get it.

Heidi [00:57:14]:
You just finished it like last month though, right?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:57:17]:
So it's could be, could be upcoming.

Heidi [00:57:19]:
A little soon to tell. Yeah, yeah. So. But you owned it. And you did the. I mean, because I think a lot of freelancers would do maybe one of two things. They would either just send the invoice for the full thing and kind of just throw it out there or like panic, shrink the invoice to a. Some small amount that they're like, I think maybe this is gonna work and then just send that.

Heidi [00:57:49]:
But like the hard thing I think is what you did where you like, okay, we're gonna talk through this and you initiated the meeting and. But I think like what a learning experience, right?

Caroline Kuhlman [00:57:59]:
I imagine that was a double kick in the butt to, to be like, okay, I have got to do proposals. Like get a proposal together so that they and I know what we're discussing. And then we've got to do the contract and it's written down.

Heidi [00:58:20]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:58:20]:
And this is protection and help and behooves me and the client to have this so that we are on the same page and working towards the same goal.

Heidi [00:58:34]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:58:35]:
And, and so another thing I did in July was like sign up for some local small business nonprofits. So one of them was you. You can. They have like a heavy, huge drop down list of like business things that you can ask for help with. And I, I just happened to pick contracts because I sort of felt like, like, is this legally binding and how do I enforce this? And I wanted to understand it more and I knew that it was something I should be doing that I wasn't really doing. And so I met, I got this wonderful man. He has had a whole career in business and he talked to me about contracts for an hour and that was, that was for free. And that was his time that he gave to me and it was so sweet.

Caroline Kuhlman [00:59:37]:
I could tell that he had looked at my website and was trying to understand my business. And he's not from Fashion Apparel at all. And I think that's another situation of putting myself out there, there being vulnerable, saying, here's these things that as a business owner, I don't know, and then asking for help from a stranger and meeting with them online. I mean those are all. Yeah, I, I think if those things are scary for anybody listening, I, you're not alone. It's, it's not easy to put yourself out there and say, I don't know, this help.

Heidi [01:00:17]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:00:21]:
And so that was in my mind. And then this project that I messed up on, I'm like, okay, contracts and proposals, here we go. This is something I want to do, need to do, sort of understand it in a very real life way, in a new way. And, and I think it's also sort of maybe like a self respect thing that I am taking the time to not just say, okay, yes, I can do this thing for you and I will do whatever it takes to make it happen, but to explain what my role is so that they understand and that I ask all the questions that I need to ask to understand what they need. And I just messed this up again. Actually, the other day someone reached out to me on LinkedIn, which was so exciting. I was like, oh my gosh, they're reaching out to me. And I said, okay, I'll put together a proposal and have it to you tomorrow.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:01:37]:
And then as I worked on it, I had 78 questions that I needed to ask.

Heidi [01:01:42]:
You hadn't had a discovery call yet, right?

Caroline Kuhlman [01:01:45]:
So I didn't, I just Said I would send her the proposal by the next day, and I didn't get to ask my questions. So I. So then I sent the proposal with all these questions, and I haven't. I haven't heard back. So I should probably say, you know, that even in my proposal, it says, here are the steps. First we have a discovery call, then we have the proposal. I didn't follow my own steps. Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:02:12]:
I mix them all up. So.

Heidi [01:02:18]:
It'S part of the learning curve.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:02:19]:
Yeah.

Heidi [01:02:19]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:02:20]:
I'm not magically doing everything in the right order now, even though I just.

Heidi [01:02:25]:
Even though you, like, said that I.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:02:26]:
Learned my lesson and got a big double kick in the butt while I'm still. Yeah. The excitement took over and I was like, oh, my gosh, she's rich. She found me.

Heidi [01:02:37]:
Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:02:39]:
So we're all real people trying to do stuff. And I think that that is another perspective shift, is that I can allow myself to see I. Pattern makers and brands and other people. As I think you say, you're sort of on the same level as them and not, like me as this little person down here, like, trying to do whatever I can to get the work. I think it's important to honor yourself as the freelancer and say, okay, I have value, and I'm going to do these steps for the client and also for me so that we can make sure that we're coming together. And that's a good match. Because I did at first, I didn't really. When I was saying, I want this to be a good match for both of us, I didn't really mean it for myself.

Heidi [01:03:38]:
Interesting insight.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:03:40]:
I just wanted it. If it was a good match for them, then I was gonna push myself into whatever shape I needed to be to do the project for them.

Heidi [01:03:51]:
Wow. It's interesting. It goes back to something you said earlier where you were like, well, now I say, oh, I can print the patterns for you if you need, or you can mail them to me. And you're like, maybe I shouldn't be so flexible. And I think that. I think that as a freelancer, it's very easy to slip into the. Like, let me fit into any shape that the brand wants, because I want the project.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:18]:
Yes.

Heidi [01:04:18]:
Right.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:19]:
Yes.

Heidi [01:04:19]:
And, yes, I'm gonna do my best to deliver and do an exceptional job, all the. All those good things. But you wind up, like, compromising so much for both parties, I think.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:32]:
And.

Heidi [01:04:35]:
I think it can be really hard to, like, hold those boundaries. And.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:42]:
Yes. See, it goes going back to mental health boundaries.

Heidi [01:04:45]:
It is. Oh, it's all freaking huge. Oh. I mean, totally.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:49]:
Yeah. These. These skills are.

Heidi [01:04:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a serious muscle that.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:56]:
Yes.

Heidi [01:04:56]:
I think you work on for your entire life.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:58]:
Yes.

Heidi [01:04:58]:
It's never ending.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:04:59]:
Yes. Because each week has a different. Different combination of craziness happening in the world and family and pets and. I mean, we don't get to separate it. I think corporate life, we can pretend that they're all separate in their own little boxes, but it's not.

Heidi [01:05:22]:
It's not. It all melds together. Yeah. I am so, so grateful that we had this opportunity to sit down in.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:05:31]:
Person for this is such a treat.

Heidi [01:05:34]:
Almost two hours and get so deep on all of this and hear about the amazing work you've done and the amazing transformation you've made for yourself.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:05:43]:
I'm so thankful. I think that's the really special thing about Turbo is that you challenged me during the process to reflect on things like. Like you would ask me, how are you doing? What is challenging for you about this? Why have you been avoiding this? And then. And then you were silent and I had, you know, you gave me that space, that sort of uncomfortable space to. Okay, I have. Now I'm going to try to put this into words and how can I describe this? And I feel like that's part of this integration thing where it's like saying out loud to someone you trust who is. You have asked for help. I mean, that is gold.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:06:39]:
Gold.

Heidi [01:06:40]:
I'm so glad. I'm so grateful. I'm so glad you looked for that help on your portfolio years ago. And here we are.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:06:49]:
Yeah.

Heidi [01:06:49]:
What a journey.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:06:50]:
Yeah. So thankful.

Heidi [01:06:53]:
Two things at the end. One is, where can everybody connect with you online? Your website is up. I'm dying to go check it out. I haven't even seen it.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:07:02]:
It's crazy. I asked for feedback from another freelancer on my website and she was ruthless. And it was so awesome because she was like, your website is, like, really educational, but it's not talking to pattern makers very well. And I was like, you're right. Cool. If you want to look at an educational sample maker, that's what I have right now.

Heidi [01:07:24]:
It's okay.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:07:25]:
So it's just. It's. It's wonderful to be in a community where. Where if you ask for feedback and they're going to tell you what they think.

Heidi [01:07:34]:
Yeah. Not like, it looks great, right? Yeah.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:07:38]:
Because people's said that too, or just said like, oh, maybe change the font. But this was like. She was like, thinking like a freelancer. How could this talk to Your target audience better. So what's the URL? Www.carolinecoolman.com okay, cool.

Heidi [01:07:59]:
We'll link that. And you're on LinkedIn as well, obviously.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:08:02]:
Yes. And I made an Instagram. Instagram the other day. Okay. With those pictures from that photo shoot. That was scary.

Heidi [01:08:10]:
Oh, good.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:08:11]:
It's up there.

Heidi [01:08:12]:
Oh, I'm excited about all these things. I love that. And I'll end with a question I ask everybody at the end, which is what is one thing people never ask you about being a fashion freelancer that you wish they would?

Caroline Kuhlman [01:08:45]:
I think if someone asks me, like, kind of generally, how do you do it? I would say, I don't do it by myself. I have lots of help. And it's interesting to notice now that I can say, like, I am a small business owner. I set up my LLC earlier this year, which feels amazing. And sometimes I notice people react to me differently, like when I say that I'm a business owner and kind of like, wow, how did you do that? And I just want to say I didn't do it by myself. So much help and support, family, friends, other freelancers. Turbo was really life changing for me. I don't say that lightly.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:09:45]:
So I think if you're out there and it looks like somebody's doing it on their own, if they are, they're really lonely and most likely they have people in their corner helping them, like in the WhatsApp chat, saying, hey, SOS, I just did this dumb thing. Why did I just say this? Please help me. Yeah, that's real what's happening in my WhatsApp.

Heidi [01:10:21]:
Thank you for being so, like, real and raw and humble and vulnerable and sharing like, the good, the bad, the messy, the uncomfortable. It's so important to, like, be really transparent about these things. And I think personally sharing them is also therapeutic for our own selves.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:10:40]:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's. I'm so thankful for the opportunity to get to reflect and, and I think it's, it's, it's so valuable.

Heidi [01:10:51]:
Yeah. Thank you, Carolyn.

Caroline Kuhlman [01:10:52]:
I appreciate it. Thank you.