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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
This is gonna be a fun one.
I've got Kacha Melhorn here who's
German, but lives in the Netherlands
and she lives in the, or near the
town of Crogan Groan as we all Grogan.
And she runs Horse Kids Crogan.
But she's also a, an academic, a
jolly, clever brainiac doctor, doctory
type person, and she's a psychologist
at the University of Crogan.
Dealing with ai, but not with the
development of ai, but with teaching
students how to actually research and not
rely on ai, which is interesting that we
have to pay attention to that in the, in
the days she's not doing that, of course,
she's on the farm and she's working with.
The equine assisted field in various
ways with various populations out
there in rather beautiful countryside
in the Northern Netherlands.
So she's really got a very broad focus
and I'm very excited to talk to her.
I've known catcher for a while and
I've watched her develop her program
and I've always been kind of silently
in awe going, whoa, how'd you do that?
Whoa, how'd you do that?
So now we finally get a
chance to ask the lady.
So Kacha, thank you
for coming on the show.
Can you tell us who you are and why
you got into this equine assisted thing
when you could so easily just had a
cushy number at the university and
just ridden horses in your spare time?
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, first of
all, thank you for having me.
I'm really honored When Eliana
asked, I thought like, wow, you
have this amazing list of speakers,
and then what do I have to add?
But that's,
Rupert Isaacson: well, you're
an amazing speaker, but yeah.
Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: So asking me
about horses, that's a long story.
You know, I always loved horses and yeah.
When you have to decide what kind
of job to do, everyone said like,
yeah, we don't work in horses.
Become like something real.
So after looking into being a vet or
biologist, I ended up with psychology
because I'm really interested in behavior.
Mm-hmm.
Animal or human, whatever.
So that seemed to be kind of a good fit.
And then I kind of got drawn
into a PhD and I started that.
But yeah, research is cool.
Psychology is cool, but the horses
always just had the stronger pool on me.
Rupert Isaacson: Horses
a cool, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: So while I was doing a
postdoc actually in Pittsburgh, in the
us I started volunteering at a center
that did writing for the handicapped.
So a path center.
And I thought, wow, that, that's it.
That's what I need to do.
That's so amazing.
So yeah, why?
Why?
Yeah, why it you just, I mean, you
are happy yourself if you're with
the horses, at least if you're a
crazy horse person like we are.
Mm-hmm.
You also see the effect on those kids.
They had kids there who were in a
wheelchair, they seem barely conscious,
kind of the head hanging down and they
were being rolled in and you thought like,
po okay, we are gonna put you on a horse.
And then they smiled and the parents said
like, wow, that's their smile of the week.
And it just gives you goosebumps.
See the, the effects that
it has or, yeah, very.
Excited autistic kids, calming down on
the horse, kids saying their first words.
It's just, yeah, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Magic is the,
the best word I can think of.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's interesting.
I'm always interested in this though
because, you know, I, I'm so terrible.
I'm so, I'm so selfish.
Of course I didn't get involved in
this until there was a gun to my
head, you know, with my own son.
And then luckily, fortunately for me,
you know, find, and him finding a, a
way into his world through the horse.
But I'm always rather intrigued by people
who come to it from the outside and say,
yeah, I want to do this vocationally.
Because it's not an
easy thing to do at all.
Also now what you do at Horse Kids, GaN is
not like the standard path thing, right?
So you started with that.
So tell us how it differs.
And why does it differ?
What, how, why have you developed
in, what have you developed and why
have you developed in that direction?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so when I did
the volunteered there at the Path
Center, I became certified as a CER
path certified writing instructor.
Mm-hmm.
And, but they really have to focus
much more on the physical handicaps.
Yeah.
And being a psychologist, I was obviously
more interested in the, the mental part.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: And then also when
I started having my own center, like
if you have people with wheelchairs
and things like that, you need a
lot of infrastructure while the, the
mental stuff you can do much easier
on a, on a small scale by yourself
or with a couple of volunteers.
Mm-hmm.
So that's the practical side.
What I.
Also really like is to be creative
and funny and, and really zoom
in on the individual kids' needs.
Hmm.
And in the standard kind of part
setting, you have a group that kind
of more or less just the same activity
and yeah, it always felt like it, it
was magic in the one hand, but it also
felt like you could do more than, than
what at least what they did there.
Mm-hmm.
If you have the resources, because
of course if you do it individually,
it, it takes more resources than
if you help kids in a group.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And as you say, you know, the, the
standard therapeutic model that evolved
in the USA UK and actually Germany
too, where you are from, really came
about after World War II where people
basically missing limbs who'd been blown
up were coming back home often to family
riding establishments because their.
Father perhaps had been in
the cavalry and had started a
riding school when they retired.
That was a standard thing to do.
So you had these people who were already
motivated to ride and perhaps already
knew how to ride, coming back from the
war and then wanting to adapt, you know,
figure out some sort of adaptation.
I guess in our world, when we are
dealing, particularly with autism
as well, is one isn't always dealing
with people who have the ability
to follow top down instruction.
Mm-hmm.
And also who may or may not
be motivated to ride at all.
That's, that's one of the things I often
find really interesting about our work is
that we're letting the horse facilitate
a change in the brain, which could be
riding, it could be something else, or it
could not be the horse at all, and we need
to know how to do that without the horse.
So I, I find that very exciting.
But as you say, it takes.
A certain resource rich environment
because it does require, if not
one-to-one, at least very small groups.
Mm-hmm.
And if you've got groups, you
need a lot of, a lot of, you know,
instructors or facilitators or
whatever we want to call ourselves.
Let's just talk a bit now about your,
you've got a rather special program there.
Can you give us a snapshot of what you do?
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So we have the amazing luck to live on
this beautiful old Dutch farm with a small
herd of seven horses, four of which I use.
I, I hate the word use.
I don't use horses by with,
in the therapy setting.
And I have kids here, mainly
individual who come for sessions
of one and a half hours.
And then we work with
them on, on their goals.
And of course you have to have like
properly written down, at least in
the Netherlands, it's paid for by
the municipality, so you need the
goals on the list and everything.
Nice.
But of course then the kid comes
in and maybe something totally
different is going on on that day.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: So it often feels like
you kind of set a safe space where they
can come in, they calm down, you do
some jokes and some movement and some
action, and then you kind of just yeah,
facilitate that that things can happen.
And that can be very like social emotional
goals, but it can also be math or yeah.
Whatever is at that
moment important for that.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
You will go to the academic
stuff as well if people Yeah.
Yeah.
So talk to us about someone coming in w
with difficulties with maths h how, give
us some ideas about how you approach this.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So I, I have this autistic boy that's
been coming for a couple of years.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: And we've worked on all
kind of things, but recently math is a
thing because they have to, well do math
in school and he decided he's bad at it.
So nothing with numbers was like even
allowed, but he loves Formula One.
So as part of his lessons
always we do racing.
So then he decides which race car, the
horses, and then we race around and
then the horse becomes another race car.
So at some point we added, oh, does
this race car also have a number?
So just kind of throwing in numbers
for fun without doing anything
for it or with it at some point
we actually like, took the time.
It took, what do you
call it, with stopwatch?
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Timed it.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
We, we timed it and then we wrote
on a whiteboard, the, the times.
And then he even actually also wanted to
write a time, and then he write a to wrote
a total bogus time, but it doesn't matter.
He, he wrote a time and he got
really excited by, Hey, that that's
numbers and that has something so,
so slowly kind of, we, we dropped the
numbers in a way that are not scary.
You don't have to do anything with them,
which just kind of introduced in Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just start a relationship
with them where the numbers are safe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: We do, did
a lot of step counting.
Mm-hmm.
Also like the horse trots 10 steps
and then we kind of a rule-based game.
The next person can decide how many
steps and then we have to take turns
and he has to like, keep track of whose
turn it is to, to say a number and then.
Rupert Isaacson: I am just thinking
about a, we, we, we have a version of
the, the time it takes to do something
where we'll walk the distance first.
Mm-hmm.
So let's say, we'll walk it out in meters
ourselves, just in steps, but we'll do
it, you know, in a silly walk styley,
or we'll do it as ostriches or as ducks
or just anything to make it funny.
Yeah.
Or in a way that as you say, now we're
all Formula One drivers or something.
And then we can calculate of
course, the distance over time.
It gets speed.
And it's really interesting,
we've had so many kids who.
Have this difficult problem with math.
I was one of those kids, of course who
then fall into doing these types of
experiments with numbers really easily,
because as far as they're concerned,
this is no longer a math lesson.
This is just mm-hmm.
Trying to find out how fast am I,
you know, let alone how fast are you.
And I'm always astonished that
when people are in school numbers
are not presented in this way.
So many of us are made to feel unsafe
around numbers because it, it, it often
goes with sarcasm and scorn and you know,
it, when I was a boy, we even got beaten.
So, you know, you knew that a trip
to the whiteboard to get it wrong in
front of the whole class could also
result in physical violence, you know?
So, you know, naturally
we became number averse.
But there's so much shame around numbers.
Tell me, yeah.
Okay.
You make people feel safe with this.
You yourself are a numbers girl because
you know, you, you've come up through the
science route and I know you, you know,
so I know that you, you have a facility
for numbers and something that can be
difficult, I find for people who do have
a talent for numbers, is empathizing
and putting themselves in the shoes of
people who struggle with this because
it comes somewhat naturally to you.
What was your process in getting
over that so that you could actually
empathize with someone that sees numbers
very differently to the way you do?
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I, that's weird to say.
Do you have a talent?
But I think I, I have a talent in that
sense that I'm pretty good at or at
kind of getting at where someone is at.
Mm-hmm.
I'm pretty good at imagining how this,
if you can't do things, there's enough
things I've, I've struggled with.
So I, I, I don't remember that I
went through that phase actually.
So that's
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
Yeah.
Did you, what, what did you struggle with?
Because I think, I think it needs
as a super brain, so I'm like, what,
what, what could catch a probab
possibly struggle with academically?
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, ac academically,
well, well actually like higher
math, definitely I did struggle with.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: But I, I struggle a lot
with like physical things like horse
riding, dancing, those, those things.
I always feel like, oh, some
people can do it so easy and
it takes me so much effort to
Rupert Isaacson: what, what do you
find that's really interesting to me.
What do you find is your
biggest physical challenge?
'cause again, knowing you, I know
you as a bit of an athlete, I mean,
you are, you're always running
around, you're in great shape.
We've worked together with horses.
I haven't observed you having
any particular difficulty.
What do you, what do you
see as your difficulty?
Do you feel, and do you feel that's
actually more something mental?
Or is that actually something question?
Katja Mehlhorn: I think,
I think rhythm, like.
S in high school dancing class was, was
hell because I just couldn't let myself
be let, but I also couldn't lead myself.
So,
But also to like, have tension
in the right part of the body
and relaxation in the right
part, which you need for writing.
Then like, oh no, your back
moves at the wrong point.
And I just can't, like,
how do people do it?
I can't figure out that.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you then,
okay, so do you struggle with this
concept of tension and relaxation?
Relaxation and tension?
Like, you know, being relaxed enough
that you can move fluidly, but
having enough tension that you don't
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I seem to
relax in the wrong body parts and
keep tension in the wrong body.
I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Do, and then do you, do
you encounter, 'cause you, you, your, your
program is both ridden and on the ground.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So how do you help
people when you see them?
Encountering the same problems
in the ridden as you might have,
what's your go-to for helping them?
Katja Mehlhorn: That that's
actually inter interesting.
'cause I had a discussion with a
couple of my more advanced students
and they said, oh, but you are so
great at explaining those things.
And I thought like, wait, really?
But then I thought, yeah, I really
had to go through all the steps myself
to figure out exactly which muscle
and in what way does it have to move.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: Compared to a very
talented rider who just says, sit
straight and move with the horse.
And I'm like I don't know how to do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
So if you, when you have to break
it, can you give us an example of
how you break this down for someone?
I think a lot of people listening
and watching will go, yeah,
actually I have that problem too.
And I would imagine that a number
of people that you think Katia are
very good writers, probably struggle
with this more than they let on.
So yeah, tell us how you break it down.
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, exercise I really
like is the, I don't know, what do they
call those Russian dolls that are on the
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Kind of a balancing
Rupert Isaacson: oh.
For us, the Russian dolls
are the ones that you open
and, and it's like, yeah, no,
Katja Mehlhorn: they're, they're the
other ones that have like a heavy s
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
You can't push them over.
They have a Yeah, okay.
A weight on the bottom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: So, so put someone
on the horse and say, okay, lean
forward a bit till you feel that
you would drop on your nose.
If I magic away the horse.
And that's like, great for kids
and like, oh, you can do magic.
So always add some fun and
not make it too serious.
Okay.
Now lean backward a bit till you
feel you would land on your ass.
If I match you away the horse
and then kind of slowly swing
and, and, and find the middle.
'cause then you know you are
in, in balance compared to
just sit straight or sit in.
Did
Rupert Isaacson: you do that
with the horse first, not moving?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes, definitely.
And sometimes even on the ground first.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So let's say
you start on the ground, then
you'd go to a non-moving horse.
How do you help them once
the horse starts moving?
Because that, that brings
in other variables, right?
Like side to side, et cetera.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
So we, we also do it side to side,
indeed, and then first at the walk,
and I lead the horse around and
sometimes that don't close their eyes.
That really helps to feel also
Rupert Isaacson: then when
it comes to, okay, so I could
see exploring the boundaries.
Yeah.
What's the middle point?
Closing your eyes for feel.
This is very good.
Also starting not on the horse.
I'm a great believer, as you
know, in starting everything
we're gonna do with a pony.
Not with a pony.
Yeah.
So that we can have a muscle
memory to bring to the pony.
Only took me 500 years
to work that one out.
But Okay.
Then once they're up there and you
want to then develop them, how have
you, let's start with you yourself.
How did you develop yourself?
Beyond that point, and then how
do you show them how to do that?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
The what's always really useful
too, I think is practicing in like
sitting throughout or standing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: Or for example,
not just to, how do you call it?
Up down?
No, you don't call it like
Rupert Isaacson: hosting or rising.
Yeah,
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Hosting for the
Americans, rising for the Brits.
Yes.
Katja Mehlhorn: So, but then
do it in another rhythm.
So rise for two, sit for one, or rise
for four, sit for four, rise for eight.
Sit for eight.
You can directly make a game
of that again with with the
kids who are number challenged.
Rupert Isaacson: That was
gonna be my, my question.
If you combine numbers with balance like
that, what's the result for the brain?
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, hopefully you
get learning because, because that,
Rupert Isaacson: that sounds to me
like vestibular system activation,
right?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
And again, for those listeners
who dunno what the vestibular
system is, don't worry.
It's those three little bones in
your inner ear, which act like a
sort of spirit level to, to make
sure you don't lose your balance.
Apparently when that gets activated
it puts our bodies on high alert
because we obviously don't wanna fall.
So it seems to be connected
with long-term learning.
And it is very interesting to me.
The two languages that I, I speak
French, I, as you know, my German is by
no means perfect, but it's functional.
And both of those I learned
on the back of a horse.
Rather than in a classroom.
And I would posit that it, it was because
of the vestibular system activation.
That vocabulary tends to stay
in my head if it's given to me.
In that, and we have this really
good teacher called Cade Lang, who
does movement method in Colorado, who
does a lot of his math while making
kids just balance along a curb of a
street or a curb of the parking lot.
And he says this also, you
know, gets these things going.
When you, when you, when these kids then
after playing these numbers games, go
back to school, do you get any feedback
from them, the parents or the teachers?
C
Katja Mehlhorn: certainly.
So the, I think the, the goal that I have
is not to actually teach them the numbers,
because I can't do that in one and a half
hours a week or even every two weeks.
But to kind of get them,
I'm scared of the numbers.
Yeah.
So they there to do it in school again.
Actually that boy, at some point,
the mom texted me very excitedly.
He's doing sums by himself.
He's just writing down
sums and doing them.
And now he's actually totally
into multiplication table.
So every time he comes, now
we have to teach the horse
a new multiplication table.
We are getting very smart horses this way.
Okay.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Your
horses must be, yeah.
Are they, are they they're probably
gonna graduate from your program and go
get jobs at the university themselves?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
they're literate for sure.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The, these kinds of
kids that you're talking about here
with anxiety, learning difficulties,
social emotional, these of course
are kids that can, for the most
part, follow top down instruction.
Talk to us about how you approach somebody
with more classic autism, particularly
in the younger years where top down
instruction is really not a possibility.
What's your way in there?
How do you, how do you go?
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, I.
Mainly I have kids that are a little
higher on the, on the functioning level.
I don't have any nonverbal, at
least haven't had in a while.
But, but even then, like the boy I'm
talking about now, he's, you, you
cannot have a normal conversation.
Normal whatever's normal, but
like we are having now, you,
you couldn't have with him.
Mm-hmm.
So it's, it's a lot true, true game and
to, like me and the volunteers talking
about something with him, hearing it
and then trying to involve him and if he
doesn't wanna be involved, just hoping
that he will soak it up in some way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Would you, would you say lead him
through the game on the horse,
perhaps without asking him up first
to understand True with a capital U?
Katja Mehlhorn: Definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
One of the things which you know, I
know some people listening might say,
well, you know, how, how can that help?
But of course what we're talking
about here is neuroplasticity, right?
That.
Remem remembering that all movement,
particularly if the body has
to solve problems like balance
while the movement is going on.
And that of course is
gonna happen on a horse.
This causes the brain to produce that
protein, BDNF, which creates neurons.
So yes, you're going to see progress
because you're just creating more neurons.
And I wish this were
understood better at schools.
When we are doing say, movement method
in schools, one of the hardest things to
get people to get their heads around is
not separating movement from learning.
Yeah.
Not saying, if you do this boring thing
you don't want to do, I will reward you.
Then you're
Katja Mehlhorn: play.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just go and play.
Have the conversation and
integrate that thing into the play.
And that's why sport is so good.
And.
The neuroplasticity will begin to
happen and that person will have a very
different brain in six weeks to the
brain that came through the door simply
because of that neuroplasticity process.
And this, I feel, isn't taught enough
in the equine assisted world, really,
that what is our goal here, you know?
And for me the goal, I guess as an
autism day is always neuroplasticity.
Mm-hmm.
But it has to be surely also
for mental, emotional stuff.
Right.
Because you don't wanna
be in a static state.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
You want to develop on you, you understand
this neuroplasticity thing Well,
can you give us a bunch of examples?
I think it'd be really useful for
people to have practical examples of a
number of things that you would do at
Horse Kids Corning, and specifically
kind of aimed at this neuroplasticity.
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I mean, I think
it, it comes in, in all the time.
I, one of the important things, I, I
think that's, you can't underestimate
importance is safety, that you feel
safe because the, the brain can't learn
if it doesn't feel safe, because then
it's just in the wrong kind of state
and, and, and movement, which is fun.
It, it activates the brain, but it
also again helps to, to feel safe
unless you run away or fight, I guess.
So, yeah.
So I think it's, it's a bit part of,
of everything, but I was just like
triggered by something you said,
like you let them go through the game
without asking them to understand it.
And I think that's really
Rupert Isaacson: absolute.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: That's really important
that you don't put pressure on there
or ask their attention because then
again, there's this danger of someone's
asking something from me and then,
then the learning is not happening.
E
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
I find this even with myself,
like, if you want me to understand
something new, you have to give me a
bit of time to just get used to it.
Get used to the fact that
it's happening around me.
So if I take that to someone with, you
know, massive anxiety, or I take that to
somebody with autism and the anxiety that
goes with autism and feeling confused in
the world, then this thing of you asking
for feedback, asking for eye contact,
asking for attention, constantly wanting
them to say or do something, ends up being
interpreted by the brain as a threat.
Mm-hmm.
And
as we know, that makes the brain
tell the body to produce cortisol,
which actually kills brain cells.
But it's so natural, of course, in a
human to want to get that feedback.
How do you.
Discipline yourself.
It, it took me a while
to discipline myself.
How do you discipline yourself
to not ask for that feedback?
To wait for that feedback to come?
Katja Mehlhorn: Usually you get punished
because I, I mean, I still do it all
the time, but then you see the ice
place over and you're like, oh, damn.
Yeah, that was, I shouldn't have asked.
But then you make a joke of it, or,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
an interesting skill though.
How long do you think it's taken
you to acquire that skill of having
that light approach where you are
not asking for feedback so much?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
I don't, I'm, I'm still learning.
I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
I am, I've been, I got licensed as
path instructor in 2012, so, mm-hmm.
And yeah, hopefully we are
getting better every day.
I don't think you are ever done
with learning that, and then you
have another kid and you might
need to do it more or less.
I think the the thing you really
need to do is listen to the kid
and as you always say, follow the
kid and, and, and see what happens.
I mean, you just try
something and sometimes works.
How do we listen to a kid?
But sometimes it doesn't.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How do we, how
do we listen to a kid who's either
not talking nonverbal or not
wanting to express themselves?
Talk to us about that kind of listening.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Well, it's great we have the horses
because they, they listen for us.
So often you can see in directions
of the horse if there is tension in
a kit if you can't see it yourself.
Mm-hmm.
So there's all kind of signals, horses.
Kind of give, they're
called calming signals.
There's a Dutch person, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: no talk, talk,
talk to me about this person.
Katja Mehlhorn: She has she did
actually great research mm-hmm.
On hours and hours of videos where she
watched horses and determined signals that
more horses do that show that they are
either, so that they're basically changing
between sympa and parasympathetic state.
So between stress and relaxation and
those are the signals that we also
know, for example, in the Masterson
method, they also know a lot of those.
So the blink of the eye or chewing
or licking, lowering your head.
The also more, more stress signals
like the eyes getting very big or
horses kind of fumbling on their
body to kind of get attention out.
But yeah, tho those signals, if you, if
you, the more you to learn to, to, to, to
read your horses, the more you kind of see
from the horse's reaction also on what's
happening with the, with the client.
Rupert Isaacson: Give us the
name of this lady, Rachel Rael.
Rashelle.
Katja Mehlhorn: Rema.
Rupert Isaacson: Ima, how do I spell that?
R
Katja Mehlhorn: double A-I-S-M-A-I think.
Rupert Isaacson: R-A-A-I-S-M-A.
I'm gonna go look up.
Look her up, Rachel.
Well, yeah.
'cause this is an interesting
thing with the equine assisted
world, is that it, it, you know,
it's such a diverse world, right?
From the path approach where these
sort of leading kids around through
activities to horse boy, where we're
Katja Mehlhorn: looking
Rupert Isaacson: for neuroplasticity with
a child in front of us in the saddle and
oxytocin to, you know, the e gala or other
types of, you know, on the ground models.
They're all.
Very much based on needing
the horse to guide us.
Mm-hmm.
Or we kind of can't do the thing.
And so I'm often quite surprised when
one sees, for example, grumpy horses
in a program or horses that are quite
obviously not doing well physically that
this isn't addressed more so that kind
of, because I think what you're talking
about, whether it's looking at this
Rachel Rema ladies work or say Masterson's
work, which is also really good.
That's more about learning how
to interpret and help our horse.
Of course, by the time we are working
with a vulnerable human with a horse.
We can't really do that well unless the
horse is at a state of wellbeing mm-hmm.
That, you know, it can then
transfer that wellbeing.
Right.
You know, to that person.
So
when we are looking for those signals
from a horse in a session, we are
hoping that the baseline of the
horse is, is now one of wellbeing.
Yeah.
Which, so you've got your herd of seven.
Talk us through this.
How do you ensure your horse's wellbeing?
I'm, I'm really, I'm every,
'cause I, everyone's got their own
approaches for this and it's, it's.
It should be obviously
the main conversation.
Yes.
Because these are our
biggest colleagues, right?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
And and I think that, yeah, you can't
underestimate how important that is
because I mean, yes, I have to fight for
the kids who come to me, but they have
also other people who fight for them.
My horses, I'm the, I'm the
only advocate they have, so I
have to make sure and Right.
And
Rupert Isaacson: the horses can't do
it unless you are advocating for them.
So, yeah.
So what's your, what's, talk us through
your sort of general horse wellness.
Yeah,
Katja Mehlhorn: so, so they, they live
in a herd outside, but we also have the
luck to have an indoor arena, at least
an old shed that's an indoor arena.
And they, that's their
walk in shelter as well.
Okay.
Unless we actually use it for
writing, but then we can even split
it in a way that they still have
part of it for, for themselves.
Yeah.
They, they go out in the, in
the field on the grass, but it's
Dutch very rich McDonald's grass.
So unfortunately we can't
do the 24 hours a day.
Yeah.
We have a big hay feeder,
which is automated.
Okay.
So they get regular times feeding
without long breaks, but they also
don't eat too much because Yeah.
What's in there is the
McDonald's grass hay.
Of course.
Yeah.
So, so that's kind of to make the, I
think the three FI feed France and forage.
That's kind of the, that's
what we have in any place.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
I always feel one has to add another
F in there, which is fitness.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I don't
often see this addressed enough.
I was lucky 'cause I grew up in that.
Eventing fox hunting world in the UK
where fitness is kind of drummed into
you, and soundness meaning long, slow
trail rides, basically to make sure the
horse's tendons are fit and all of that.
But I didn't realize also the emotional
importance of that in horses until I
started going to places that didn't do it.
First in the sport world, in the
jumping world in in America where I
encountered some of my first really
unhappy horses and I was like, Ooh.
They don't, they don't, they
just don't do this fitness work.
And I know with myself, if I
don't walk I go funny in the head.
So, but it's very difficult in a, in a
program when one has, you know, clients
coming in all the time, how does one
find this time for the fitness work?
Or how does one integrate perhaps better
the fitness work into the sessions?
Talk to us about that.
'cause I know you, you actually
do keep your horses pretty fit.
How, how do you, how do you manage them?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
So part of it is of course, that they
can, they can actually move on the track
system they live on, we, we measured
and that they move about like 10 to 14
kilometers a day just by themselves.
But, but yeah, of course that,
that's not enough and especially the
fat ponies who like to move less.
So indeed, I try to sneakily in
the lessons and in the sessions,
als always include something that
we are working on with the horse.
So maybe walking poles I don't
know if we work on can, then the
kids are gonna counter that week.
And we also do a lot of
on, on mental fitness.
So we do a lot of clicker training
trick training, agility things.
So we have mm-hmm.
It's called teeter totter.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Like a, a seesaw, a balance cto.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: And, and on
a block they, they can go on.
And and recently I've started
to, to do the stuff that you are
teaching us with the classical
triage more than than I used to.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: And for
Rupert Isaacson: the, for the, for any
listeners who, who hold up a crucifix
at the dreaded D word dressage, of
course, for many people being synonymous
with the devil we're not so much
talking about ridden dressage here.
We're talking about in-hand work.
And long reigning work doesn't mean
you can't do the ridden work, but
without that in hand component and
the long raining component, the
written work is, can be detrimental.
Whereas the, I was just in, I was
just, before this podcast, I was
just in the round pen with one of
my older horses and we're just going
through the in hand patterns gently,
and it's such a yoga, you know?
And I'm like, oh yeah.
Upward dog is pattern one, shoulder in
and downward dog is counter shoulders in.
And you know, when one thinks
about it in those terms, of
course it makes perfect sense.
And if one approaches it in that
way, it, it makes sense for a horse.
But if one approaches it in a kind
of performance based way, well
then the stresses are obvious.
The, so as you've been exploring this
classical stuff, can you talk to us
about how you do it and what the, what
effects have you seen with your horses?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so it, I, I
must admit it was kind of a difficult
path for me because I'm like the
long reins in the forest rider.
Like, just have fun with the horses.
Yeah.
And filter soft stuff.
It's too difficult.
I can't do it anyway
with my challenge body.
That was kind of my idea.
But it has really helped.
So especially by starting.
Next to the horse, it really helps that
the horse can figures out the movements
without you challenged human on there.
Mm.
And that really has helped
to improve the riding.
So actually just last week I was
at a, a course that I've been on
and off for a couple of years.
Mm.
And we worked on the Cantor and they
were like, wow, that, that goes well.
Like, what did you do
to work on the Cantor?
Like since last time, like,
actually I didn't at all.
It's just all this enhanced
stuff I've been doing and
magically the cantor got better.
So what
Rupert Isaacson: do you see
emotionally and mentally in
the horses with Ian hand work?
Katja Mehlhorn: I, because I, I know
that you have, you always say that
there's horses that don't like, wanna
work with you and then through the
internet work they get softer and easier.
I think I'm pretty lucky in that
my horses already wanted to work.
So in that sense, I don't see too much.
Although the one I'm working
most with in hand work right
now is my paint quarter horse.
Mm-hmm.
Who's kind of stuck in his ways.
Like, he's like, okay, I can do those
tricks and that's what I'm doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: So
Rupert Isaacson: description?
Yes.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
You ask something new,
he's like, ah, what now?
Shut down.
Ideally.
So he's getting more like.
Oh yeah, you're doing the counting
things and and okay, I'm on.
So yeah, it has, it has helped.
Rupert Isaacson: It'll be interesting
to see how that horse develops
because, you know, as you know, in,
we were in Texas for a long time
and we had a lot of quarter horses.
And quarter horses are great in one way
in which is that, as you said, if you show
them a job and they get really familiar
with that job, then they'll own that job.
And it really almost doesn't
matter who you put on them.
Mm-hmm.
Unless it's like a really hot
barrel racing horse or something.
But yeah, there's something in the
genetic that when you change the job
description, which of course one has
to, from time to time, you can often
get this kind of weird overreaction,
almost like, hysterical, what?
I can't believe you're asking me to
move an extra two millimeters, you know?
And I'm like, dude, you know,
it's only two millimeters.
And then of course when
they get used to that.
Then they're like, well, I've
always been doing that, you know?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
And like, well then why would you
make such a fuss the other day?
Well, I didn't do that.
For me, the in hand work was a
real game changer that way that
we saw these massive changes.
And as you know, you're lucky, as
you say, 'cause you've got a pretty
long term integrated herd there.
We do now ourselves as well.
But in the old days, we had a lot of
donation horses coming through and
also donation horses that we had to
then rehab and put in other programs,
and we found, yeah, I think it goes
back to this BDNF neuroplasticity
protein in the brain thing.
I can't prove this, but it seems that,
because as you know, in these patterns
that you do with the in hand work, you
go and you go, you get the horse across,
its midline all the time with its legs.
And we do know from humans, like
in martial arts and yoga, if, and
dance, if we cross our midlines a
lot, we get more neuroplasticity.
It really does seem to change the
personality of the horse and make it
just way more of a flexible thinker.
And I think we've seen this now
so many times that even though I
can't prove this scientifically,
just from observation, we see it.
But what we've also seen, and this
is kind of what I want to talk about
maybe next, is that when we get people
to do this with the horses, we get
a similar flexibility in the brain.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I think you just put
yourself there as an example.
You know, when I first met you,
you were a little bit rigid about.
What you considered acceptable and
what you considered not acceptable
to do with horses and so on.
And over the course of time
that I've known you, you've
become more and more flexible.
And so have, are you now pairing up
your staff, your clients with this kind
of in hand work and with the horses?
And if so, what are you
observing with them?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so, so I
think that's a great question.
And it's something like I, I'm doing
that now, but, but even before that,
I tried as much as possible to have
the clients help with the horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: I mean, that helps me.
That's great.
But also it's so great
for their self-confidence.
Oh, I can help you.
You, you got a new horse and you asked
me to help with it, and I'm the one,
the first one who can trot on him.
I mean, if it, it's true or not,
whatever, but to, to give them
the feeling like, wow, I'm not
just here for myself, but also to.
To contribute something for example,
or, or aside from the self-confidence
thing, something just that they are
able to do something for the horse
can be so impactful for people.
I have a very, someone
very bad childhood drama.
Mm-hmm.
And I let her do the masters in like
the simple masters in technique.
It's the bladder meridian.
You just slowly move your hand over a
line on the body and you look at the
signals of the horse, and then you see
things like a blink, you weight, and
then at some point the horse, you get
to big chewing, yawning, amazing action.
And she was just moved to tears like,
wow, am I doing this to the horse?
Can I actually make the horse feel better?
Because she didn't think she
could be useful for anyone.
So that, that can be so impactful.
And that's the same with
help having them Yeah.
Help to train the horse, of course,
in, in those patterns and helping them
train the horse, get, get stronger.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think there's a particular crossover
there with trauma, as you say.
You know, we, there's a, a number
of programs that we work with, with
veterans and we found that getting
them to do the in-hand work that's
the TEKE program seems to have this
direct correlation of, particularly
when it's a new horse that needs rehab.
'cause as you know, people,
people who donate horses are
not donating their best horse.
So usually they're
donating it for a reason.
It's got some problem or
problems there and needs rehab.
And if, if the, if the underlying script
is this horse was broken in service could
you please help me bring this horse back
so that it can now serve that autistic
child over there, there seems to be.
Such a value in that, that we
didn't see initially, we couldn't
have anticipated initially.
'cause as you know, when we started
doing it, we did it out of desperation
because we were running out of
time to condition our own horses.
And then I had this kind of duh moment
where I was like, but hold on, Rupert,
the, the clients are the horse trainers.
Surely.
Yeah.
You know?
And indeed that turned
out to be, to be the case.
Okay.
So
Katja Mehlhorn: can I,
can I jump in on that?
Please, please.
Because I please, I'm just thinking
of, of amazing place I've visited and
I also helped to do some research on
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: And where they, they
are a horse rescue and they also at some
point just started having kids come in
and now, now they're also child rescue.
Mm-hmm.
So they work with, at Rescue Youth
and they just do amazing things and
one of the ingredients is that they
pair the child with a rescue horse.
And then the child's kind of
task is to, to rehab that horse.
That makes so much sense.
Tell me what,
Rupert Isaacson: what's
the name of this place?
Katja Mehlhorn: It's Brook Hill Farm.
Rupert Isaacson: Brook Hill?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
In Virginia.
I think Joan Ann Miller is the director.
Virginia.
Yeah.
You should talk to her.
She's, I
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.
I'm gonna talk to, yeah.
What's the name of the person?
Katja Mehlhorn: Joanne Miller.
Rupert Isaacson: Joanne.
One word or Okay.
Joanne Miller.
I'll, I'll look her up.
And that's Horse Rescue.
Horse and Kid Rescue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can feel another podcast coming on.
There we go.
Thank you very much.
I will be in contact with her.
Katja Mehlhorn: They have done, why,
Rupert Isaacson: why did you
go there and do research?
What took you there?
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh, well, I, I
met her at, I went to the Path
Conference years and years ago.
Mm-hmm.
And I met her there and
we stayed in contact.
And then when we, we lived in the us
we, before moving back to Europe, we
did a six week tour of the whole states.
And then we, we stayed with her a couple
of days and we talked about, okay,
how can you, because you're doing such
amazing stuff, how can you actually show
that in a way that others take serious?
And then we started setting up
this research paper, which I think
got published finally last year.
Took us like 10 years or so.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
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And it also ends your time conflict,
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maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
What were the findings and
where did you publish it?
Katja Mehlhorn: At the HEI Journal.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And so
we could find it there?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Published
by you, catcher Melbourne.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
I'm one of the author, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So what were the findings?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so, well, the,
the findings was that all kids who
started the program actually completed
high school, which was very unlikely
for that population because they
all started because they were at
risk of dropping out of high school.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what was, how long
were they usually in the program for?
Katja Mehlhorn: De depended on how
far it was to high school graduation.
So some started like two years before,
and I don't remember the exact numbers.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: But we are not talking
like a period of weeks here we're talking.
No,
Katja Mehlhorn: no, no.
It's just really long term.
That's also, so in the paper we discuss
a couple of factors that could play a
role and the pair pairing with the, with
the rescue horse was one, but also that
it's really a long-term relationship.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Katja Mehlhorn: There.
Rupert Isaacson: But as you know, I
mean a lot of that's, it seems to be
a lot of the success behind animal,
all animal assisted therapies is
that people will tend to finish the
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Course
of therapy because they now have
a relationship with the animal.
Yes.
Rather than a relationship with
a boring old therapist who sits
there in a chair making them
feel terrible about themselves.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, so.
They, they would tend to go
on and finish high school.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: What were, no,
Katja Mehlhorn: not 10 to all
of them finished high school.
All of them?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
All of them.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What
was the control group?
How many people were there?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So it wasn't actually good
researching in that sense.
So we just looked at, at what they did.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Because it's not how many
Rupert Isaacson: people in the group?
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh, oh, what
was, oh, the size of the group.
I think they were a hundred
or something like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Okay.
Well, that's, yeah.
That's sizable.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Were there other
factors like criminal behaviors or
violent behaviors or anything like that?
Social emotional stuff?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
We, we don't, didn't have numbers on
that, but from like what the, what they
reported definitely that, that got better.
Because yeah, they.
They did not get kicked out of school
and they, they could finish school.
A lot of them also came
from pretty bad backgrounds.
Yes.
And, and despite that, they,
they persevered and I think
almost all of them went on to
like, post high school education.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know how
Katja Mehlhorn: full stuff
Rupert Isaacson: Joanne
Miller gets this funded?
Because, you know, unlike, unlike in
the Netherlands where you've actually
got government funding for this, and
I know this from having worked so
many years in the USAIDs tends to be
philanthropy, you know, has, this is
quite a big program by the sounds of
Katja Mehlhorn: it.
Yeah.
I I think by now they actually
got that far that they got paid,
get paid by the school system.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So that took of course,
years of of donating and, and
fundraising and everything.
And also because they're horse rescue,
they get some funding through that.
But yeah, by now the, the.
As my last at least last time I
talked to her, the school district
actually paid because That's great.
Okay.
These kids, if they go there,
they will finish school.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Well, Brook Hill Farm, I'm
gonna gonna look them up.
One of the things which as you know,
we, with our methods Horse Boy Method
Movement method, we actually ascribe the
most importance to is the environment.
Mm-hmm.
We've definitely found that bringing a
horse in, if the physical environment
is full of bad sensory triggers for the
human, and if the emotional environment is
not good as well if people are bossy, if
people are, you know, walking around with
that body language that a lot of horsey
people have that I have to watch in myself
too, where I'm always kind of in a bit
of a hurry with the body slanted forward
and, you know, barking orders at people.
You've got a particularly
whimsical environment, I feel.
Can you talk us through
your emotional whimsical
Yeah,
yeah.
Whim.
That, it's one of my favorite words
'cause it's one of my favorite things.
Whims.
How do
Katja Mehlhorn: you find whimsical?
Rupert Isaacson: Whimsical is a
mixture of beautiful with slightly
some elements of the fantastical.
And some elements of playful,
joyful where you are doing something
for the pure pleasure of it.
Nice.
Rather than just for the usefulness of it.
Yeah.
When, yeah.
And usually there's some sort of
natural, implication in there.
But yeah, talk us
through your environment.
'cause I, I felt when I was there,
there was a lot to learn actually
from just how your place is set up.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.
I think nature, that's,
that's totally essential.
And we live in the north of the
Netherlands in the countryside, so
you would think nature is a thing.
But no, because the countryside
here is basically just very flat,
high, high energy grass for the
cows that have to produce, I don't
know how many liters of milk.
And so yeah, you have to put some
work here to actually get more than
just flat grass with zero flowers.
So we have so we have
some hills, we have trees.
We are lucky that this place
actually had still all trees.
So part of where the horses are,
that that's also just trees.
Yeah, we, we have, we have
flowers in, in the field.
So what we do with the horses with
the kids a lot, we ride in the field
with all the hills and we go on a
safari, and then we spot hyenas and
tigers and which are of course just the
sheep and the cows of the neighbors.
But it's good for your imagination to
do some pretend play on the safari.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk
to us about the flowers.
How do you use flowers?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so we,
we have just herbs and yeah.
How do we use them?
I mean, you look at them sometimes.
Sometimes we we go and
collect edible plants for the
horses or even for the kids.
Although I, I've got a bit more, more
careful because I had this kid who
really liked what are they called?
The little, they called daisies.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
The, the white ones of the yellow center.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
And apparently he threw up when they got
home and his mom thought it was because
of the daisies, which I kind of doubt, but
Rupert Isaacson: unlikely because they're
known as one of the most edible flowers.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
And I mean, he didn't add eat
kilos of them, but, so I'm always
a little like, okay, we, we
try, but we don't eat too much.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Doesn't sound like it was the daisies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because Daisy's a di
dithers and Dithers is, and
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I, I think
it just shows how scared
people are of nature right now.
Yes.
Like, oh my God, you get my, you let
my kid eat stuff from you or garden
that, ooh, that must be why he got sick.
So, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Unlikely.
And I mean, kids get sick anyway.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't
be careful, but Yeah.
Knowing one's, knowing one's environment,
we do as, you know, tons of foraging.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's, that's actually
how Horse Boy started was.
Mm-hmm.
I went without horses.
I, before there was horse
boy, you know, I had gone for.
Mentorship to Dr.
Temple Grandin who
said, follow your child.
Mm-hmm.
So I followed him into the woods
and he just started eating stuff.
And now, you know, you know, I have this
background with hunting and gathering
tribes, so I'm a reasonable forger.
But I didn't know that particular
environment in central Texas,
but it wasn't difficult to
quickly learn like the 10 most,
mm-hmm.
Common,
you know, edible plants.
But it, there were actually a lot
of poisonous plants in Texas that
one had, and I couldn't explain to
him the difference between edibility
at that point and, toxicity.
So I would say, let's go
look for daddy leaves.
These are daddy leaves.
These ones, these are not daddy
leaves, you know, and I'd mind like
falling over and throwing up and dying.
And he found that very funny, but to this
day, he can feed himself off the forest.
It's really interesting and I
always feel that that's such a
good skill to teach people because
it's, it's actually security.
A couple of times in my life I've,
you know, in my younger life I ended
up completely broke and could to some
degree feed myself off the countryside,
you know, while living in a tent.
It's, but
Katja Mehlhorn: it, it seems to be
kind of an inherent human thing.
Like we have, you probably
saw our huge raspberry thing.
Yes.
So the kids just like, sometimes
they never pick their own fruit and
they're also fascinated by, wow, wow,
we can just like pick this and eat it.
And, and it's nice and
Rupert Isaacson: well because that's
what it means to fundamentally be Yeah.
A human organism.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: We, we, we are not.
Supposed to go to stores and
buy food in plastic packages.
We are supposed to feed ourselves
from the habitat that our monkey
species is supposed to live in.
Yeah.
I, I, I, I so agree that even the
movements I feel of reaching to pick
that, those types of fine motor,
you know, people spend ages trying
to teach a child fine motor skills.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
In a way that's not terribly motivating
in a, you know, lab full of plastic stuff.
When you can, as you say, go to
your raspberry patch and you've
got that gorgeous raspberry patch
there and other berries and the
natural instincts are gonna kick in.
Mm-hmm.
And the fine motor skills will follow.
It's always astonishing to me that people
don't explore these things more as, you
know, the standard therapeutic tools.
Also, you know, just
the distance of walking.
Because I know that when the kids come
to you, they're not always on the pony.
They can run around, they can explore.
So this is gonna create endorphins mm-hmm.
Which is going to calm the brain,
which is going to make the brain,
you know, open for learning.
I know too that you've got an
interesting bird reserve in part of your
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Talk to us about that.
I found that really interesting
when I, I came to you.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So the, the Netherlands is
u used to be this big yeah.
What are they called in English?
Like birds of the field or something?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
And, and, and sort of
a bird migratory Yes.
Way thing.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: But, but because of
the, the fields looking now, like
I just described earlier with like
high performance grass and zero
flowers, which means zero insects.
Mm-hmm.
Those birds are declining like crazy.
Mm-hmm.
And so they have set up systems that you
can get actually government funding if
you have an area that's bird friendly.
And the most bird friendly
is also water on the land.
So we have a part where our
land is just underwater.
Mm-hmm.
And then, yeah, it's amazing.
It's just, I think that area is like
three hectare, whatever that is in acres.
I never know that's, it's,
Rupert Isaacson: that's big.
That's about 15 acres.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But, but I mean, that's nothing like
compared to all the fields around
us, which are just like that, that
green golf course kind of stuff.
And still the birds find
it and we have this Yeah.
Swarms of birds coming there
and, and breeding there.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you take the
kids, you know, out to look at that?
Do you, do you.
Educate them about the different
bird species and how the ecosystem
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
So if we go for, for rides either on
our safaris from the hills, you have
a really, really great few on, on
the bird area, but we also have this
bike path going along our property.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: And normally those
birds are really hard to, to to see
because they're kind of shy of people,
but because they're used to being next
to the bike path at our place, you can
just like be on the bike path and like
on the fence, post two meters from you.
There's this bird, rare bird sitting.
And can you
Rupert Isaacson: give us, I'm
a, I'm a bit of a bird nerd.
Can you, I'm sure some of the people
are, can you give us an example
of what some of the species are?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, but not in English.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, let's
try and then we'll see if we can
Katja Mehlhorn: The theto is the most
Rupert Isaacson: uhto Can you do a
quick Google translate on that one?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I'll look, I think
that's the Dutch National
bird or something.
Oh God.
We.
Rupert Isaacson: Godwits.
Oh
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So if you dunno what a godwit is, lads.
It's a really beautiful bird
shorebird with a long beak.
And it's a black and white
bird with quite long legs.
Very, very beautiful.
I know what a godwit is.
What else have you got?
Katja Mehlhorn: Thank G which is he?
Lapwing.
Rupert Isaacson: Lapwings, that thing.
Yeah.
When I was a boy in the East
Midlands in England we used
to have clouds of lapwings.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is really,
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.
They're my favorite.
They're so pretty with
a little white grounds.
Rupert Isaacson: And they have a, they're
like a plover with a little curly Q
cresty thing on the back of the head.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Very elegant.
And yeah, there was a point
where I remember all the lap
wings just kind of disappeared.
Mm-hmm.
And now they're like on the endangered,
listen, but my boyhood, I remembered.
Yeah.
Clouds of thousands of them.
Yeah.
And it's so interesting how this kind
of thing happens in our lifetimes.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Shocking.
Also,
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
do you, what sort of education do you
give to the kids around these birds?
Because that's a real metaphor for
obviously the care for the planet,
you know, how's that integrated?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I, I,
I think that's a great idea.
I should do that more.
So usually they're like, oh yeah,
birds, and then they wanna move
back to something interesting so
that most kids don't seem to bear.
Sometimes some are interested, but most
don't really seem to care about the birds.
But I should do that.
And I mean, of, obviously you can
also do geography and whatever,
like looking up where they come
from and where they going, they
Rupert Isaacson: travel and, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I guess a lot, so much of it
depends on one's own level of enthusiasm.
I, I tend to get the kids.
Quite enthused about birds and wildlife.
'cause I get so enthused.
So when people see me jumping up
and down, then okay, well that's
something to jump up and down about.
But I remember when we were
working, you know, in Germany a
lot, we would have these incredible
flights of cranes coming over
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Fall in the spring,
but really like thousands of them.
And you'd hear them and then
you'd look for them and then
you'd see these crazy formations.
But sometimes they'd also
come over really low.
And all of the kids got really excited.
And as, yeah, as you say, then that
became a way into talking about all
the little brown birds that were around
and starting to observe in more detail.
And I was really often impressed
by how often if you just gave a
child permission to be interested
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: In something.
Because I think, I think a lot of kids.
Dismiss the natural world because
their parental culture does like,
yeah.
Bugs are
disgusting.
Dirt is disgusting.
That's awful.
Dah dah, dah, dah.
And I've, I've noticed, I dunno if
you've noticed this, but frequently
when kids come in to our program,
they come with that language.
And then when they see you pick up a
beetle or let a spider run over your
hand or, and talk about how cool it is,
and we really get down and look at it.
Mm-hmm.
And then the next thing I know,
they're pointing out the things to me.
Yeah.
And the next thing you know, they're
delighted by it and exploring.
And it's like they've
rediscovered their habitat.
Mm-hmm.
Do, have you been seen
similar types of export?
Yes,
Katja Mehlhorn: certainly.
Like for, for example, we, we have
apple trees and then they pick up the
apple and they throw it like it's hot.
Like, wow, what's happening?
Oh, there was like a little spot
of dirt or, or, or an end on there.
And like, oh, but look, we just clean
it off and, and you can still eat it.
And then sometimes there's like
no way they're even go, going
to go near that apple again.
But sometimes you're like,
oh, actually it's nice.
Or we feed it to doors and then
at least the horse can enjoy it.
So yeah, you, you can certainly
lower their threshold for
what they find disgusting.
I don't know if that's something
you found, but I find a lot of
the autistic kids who come here
also have a sensory thing with
touching things that might be dirty.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Just touching
the horse or touching a brush
can be, can be a challenge.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
We, we found a really interesting
way with that one, which was
having first kids wear gloves
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To touch things
so that they felt safe and then we
next to them would be touching the
same thing without the glove and.
Including it in the conversation,
but without any pressure on
the kid to remove the glove.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: what I've found is that
in general, after a few weeks of that,
the kid starts doing it without the glove.
Mm-hmm.
And there was one really
extreme example, as you say.
We had this really dirt phobic
kid, and one of the things which we
did a lot in this particular place
was mushroom foraging in the fall.
And it's great 'cause
you take the kids out.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And in Germany it's,
it's really a thing as you know.
And we'd have the kid on top as a spotter
and we'd have a group of us around.
Yeah.
We'd have to spot mushrooms and
then we'd run off to see if they
were one that we could pick or not.
Mm-hmm.
And if it wasn't one that we could
pick, we'd also talk about why.
But in general, we could fill up a bag.
And we wouldn't ask them
to eat that mushroom.
We would do them for ourselves,
but we'd be very grateful to the
child, you know, for helping us.
But of course, in the process, they end
up noticing all sorts of other things.
But the, this one kid then kept saying,
how can you pick these mushrooms?
They're full of bugs.
'cause they, you would observe.
We'd pick it and there'd be
like, stuff crawling on it.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Like,
Rupert Isaacson: And then I said, well,
you know, I used to be afraid, like you
even though I didn't and you know, I
found that if I, but if I did it with
gloves, I, it wasn't a problem by then.
Of course, the kid that we were some
weeks in was interested and at a certain
point he wanted to get off the horse
with gloves on and pick the mushroom.
And then of course, he had a reaction
when a, a bug crawled across the glove.
But I think I, it was, I noticed
it was after about 10 weeks, he was
picking these mushrooms without.
The glove and, and I had forgotten.
And then I remembered, and then two weeks
after that he was helping me plant trees.
Awesome.
And getting his hands like in the dirt
and removing all the things of dirt with
his And, and you realize, oh, right,
there's kind of a learning curve here.
Mm-hmm.
I guess is that
neuroplasticity piece, right.
That the brain actually changes,
but it's gonna change more
rapidly and more effectively with
the aid of the natural habitat.
Mm-hmm.
Organism is supposed to be in.
Right.
Whereas if one is always working
in say, an arena that's such a
sterile environment how can we
Katja Mehlhorn: actually, I've
done the same thing with poo now.
A kid that was just like,
oh, this is so disgusting.
And I had him, I went poo picking
and I had him spot the poo for me.
So yeah, even in the arena, you, you
have to be creative with what you had you
Rupert Isaacson: do.
And then he, you ended up
showering in the poo and
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
No
Rupert Isaacson: canoeing
and swimming in the
Katja Mehlhorn: poo.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well Poo
of course is really interesting
because it's a barometer of health.
Mm-hmm.
So I always point out the poo mm-hmm.
And say like, look at that poo.
Do you think that that's from a
healthy animal or a non-healthy animal?
And if it's, and what I find is
quite interesting is, is the kids
actually instinctively often know.
Katja Mehlhorn: I think
Rupert Isaacson: we all do.
Like if it's runny or something,
Katja Mehlhorn: or
Rupert Isaacson: if it's good firm
British stools, such as we built
the empire with what you know, it is
really interesting how simply drawing
attention to something like this.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and then of course from
there you can get into gut health.
And from gut health you
can get into brain health.
And then you can get into diet.
'cause as you know, a lot of these
kids maybe don't have such great diets.
It, it's always seems to me that
everything is a portal to something else.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've also got a lot of water around you.
Mm-hmm.
You're in the Netherlands and I
know that you've got this beautiful,
you know, canal that runs by your
old farmhouse through the fields.
Have you been able to use that at all?
Katja Mehlhorn: No, actually not.
So I remember when you were
there, you're like, oh, you
should put like boats and stuff.
But here it's just so normal.
Like, yeah, of course there's water that
no one even seems to care about the water.
But that's still on my bucket
list to have to do something
more active with the water.
I mean, what we do with the, with the
horses, we like if there's bottles or
stuff we, we go through or with some kids,
sometimes also we have kids with some.
Motor issues that find it
hard to walk, for example.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And then
Katja Mehlhorn: just walking
through the mud together and
first you hold their hands.
And I actually had a girl that was
so afraid of walking through the
mud a couple of years and while
ago she walked with the pony.
She got the pony out of the
mud and was like, look at you.
You're doing this all by yourself.
Do you remember that?
You couldn't do it?
And she was like, really?
No.
I, I always could do this.
So
Rupert Isaacson: that's
so interesting, isn't it?
The, the amnesia that
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Kicks in
once the skillset and the
brain has made that change.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That's my challenge for you
then, is to use the water.
Yeah.
'cause when I look at those things,
and I've actually done a little bit
of exploration here and there in
the Netherlands on the waterways.
Mm-hmm.
And it's, it's such a radically
different perspective.
Mm-hmm.
It is.
It's the
landscape from the point
of view of the water.
And as you know, there's
a lot of hidden wildlife
mm-hmm.
That you
only see if you're on the water.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That some of the water birds, some of
the water mammals, that sort of thing,
they, they hide in those reed beds.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So when I
come back, I, I think we should
Katja Mehlhorn: You wanna go in the water?
I
Rupert Isaacson: wanna go in the water.
Yeah.
And I was thinking
there's two ways to do it.
Like, you could do like a wide
flat bottomed barge thing where
there's room to move around.
Or one could do like canoes
or double kayaks, or maybe,
depending on the cognitive level
Yeah.
Of, of the child.
But I, I, I could see it being
rather delightful, whimsical.
There's that word to sort of.
Go to that dock by your house and
then maybe canoe up to a point to
then mow the boat to then catch
the horse that's in that mm-hmm.
Field and bring it back.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Switch at the windmill.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And you've also, you've got, that's
right, you've got that windmill.
Yeah.
So talk to us about that.
It, it, it's, it's a real old
historical proper job, you know?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Pumping the water kind of mill.
Very stories
Rupert Isaacson: type thing.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it still working?
And again, do you incorporate
that a little bit into what you do
sort of with the environment and
Katja Mehlhorn: It's it's like
not really used to pump the
water anymore because there is a.
Is that what
Rupert Isaacson: it was for?
It was a water pumping, yes, yes, yes.
Not a, not necessarily a grain?
Katja Mehlhorn: No, not at all.
No, just for the water.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: That I didn't know.
Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, because, so
we have the canal, and then the land
often is lower than the canal, so
they pump it like up levels in the
Netherlands, because if they stop
pumping, the country will be flooded
and I don't know, very scarily quickly.
Okay.
So now that's all I don't know,
diesel or something, but the wind,
the old windmills, some of them
still exist for heritage thing.
And sometimes if it's really bad, they
also still use them just on top of so it
turns at least once a week also, because
they need to do that to keep it in shape.
Otherwise the the woodworms
are going to eat it.
Rupert Isaacson: Do the
kids find this interesting.
Do you, do you bring this into, because
this is, this is a real thing about.
Sense of place right where
they live, who they are mm-hmm.
In the Netherlands.
So do, do you incorporate
those conversations about the
windmill into your explorations
with on horseback on the land?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, sometimes.
But, but again, windmill for them
is such a normal thing that it's
like, yeah, the el windmill, we also
have one next to our house will.
So, but some kids who can get
more than, than with others.
But I, like me as a German,
I'm always amazed still at
those typical Dutch features.
And then they look at me like, yeah,
what's so exciting about windmill?
So,
Rupert Isaacson: well, of course
these things are as exciting as
one makes them, like if one true
makes an exciting story around them.
Yeah.
And when, again, back to the place we
were at in Germany, we often served so
much kids from the local international
school many of whom by the age of, I
don't know, eight, you know, they had.
Moved, say three or four times.
They might have come from the,
their dad might have gotten some
corporate job, you know, in China.
And then they had gone from
there to Ireland and then now
here they were, or, or America.
And now here they were in Germany.
And we often realized that
they really didn't kind of
know where they were, you know?
Yeah.
They were in some sort
of bubble of expat land.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which was
their TV shows, their school,
sometimes their expat friends.
And I realized, oh, you don't
know really what Germany is.
Okay.
Yeah.
So let's find out what Germany is then.
Mm-hmm.
So we'd, I'd, I'd make sure that we had.
German food to eat.
And we would sprinkle German into the
sessions and we would talk about why
the landscape looks like it does, and
who were the Germans and where did
they come from, because they'd actually
come in after the, that particular area
was Celtic before the Germans came in.
And why did the Germans came?
'cause the Romans had been
there and then the Germans
came and chased the Romans out.
'cause they wanted this, who had chased
the Celts out and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
And we found, and then of course you
get into fairytales because that area
that we were in Hesen, that's where the
brothers grim, did all their fairytales.
So we found that you could give
people a real sense of place.
And then of course, that translated
to people actually from the area
themselves who had been born there.
But again, as you know, so many kids these
days, the, the, the, the, the experience
of the world is through a screen.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So.
They just, 'cause they're born in the
Netherlands and there's a canal and an
and a windmill doesn't mean that they ever
really see the canal of the That's true.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
So I think your, your excitement
about a canal and a windmill mm-hmm.
Would be quite infectious.
No.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I guess I'm easier
excited about animals.
So we do that actually quite a
lot when we go riding outside,
there's like sheep and cows.
Mm-hmm.
So, so we interact with them.
Some kids are pretty good impersonators.
It's always a challenge who
get the sheep to respond if you
call out to them in, in sheep.
So yeah.
That's probably also what you are Yeah.
Excited about and be able to communicate.
You're excited.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
But I always have to challenge myself
to get excited about things, which
I'm maybe not so excited about.
You must have this one, you know?
Oh,
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.
And, and many
Rupert Isaacson: of the kids
are like into Minecraft.
It's like, I'm not into
Minecraft, you know?
It's like I will never be into Minecraft,
but I have to pretend to be, you know?
Yeah.
And I have to find aspects of Minecraft
to get excited about so that I can
have conversations about Minecraft.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
' Rupert Isaacson: cause
that's where the kid is at.
Right?
How, how do you deal with that?
Like Marvel characters, computer
games, all of that stuff.
How do you use that?
Those interests of the kids.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So, so when I get a new kid, they have
intake and I ask about their interests.
Mm-hmm.
And then sometimes interests that the
parents say are not even the interested
that come back in the sessions.
But, but often, often they do.
And then, yeah, kind of depending on the
cognitive level, ask the kids about it.
Like how, oh, I how was
Formula One yesterday?
Or like, we played a Formula One
car, or I had a boy who was inch
or boy, he was in his twenties,
super interested in mapping wars.
I didn't know that was a thing.
Okay, so he, so you, there is a whole
YouTube channels where they map wars so
you can, every day you see how the map
changes depending on the development
Rupert Isaacson: of wars
that are going on right now.
Or historic.
Oh,
Katja Mehlhorn: everything.
Everything.
So he had done a second World
War day by day in the Middle
East or something like that.
Crazy.
Several year project, and then that's
the way to, to get them talking because
he actually rather wrote in silence.
But yeah, when, once you started
asking about that, he couldn't like,
help himself and got very excited.
Rupert Isaacson: And what did you want?
Like, for me, actually, honestly,
the nerd in me is immediately
really excited by that.
Right.
I, I would find that totally interesting.
Yes.
But what, how did you, if that's not
your area of excitement, how did you find
your way into that excitement so that
you could, you know, help bring him out?
How did you, how did you, if not
fake, you know, cultivate, let's say
enough excitement yourself around it.
I'm a
Katja Mehlhorn: curious
person, so that's, that's good.
As a starting point.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: And as, as you say, if
someone else is enthusiast about it,
it's kind of easy to, to get drawn into.
Yeah.
But yeah, you can of course also do
research like before the next session,
I made sure to watch some of the,
of the videos and learn a little bit
about it so that I had some questions
prepared in case I needed them.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay.
Let's talk about that because you
make that sound like, oh, of course.
I just, you know, watched some videos
and I, I would posit that your average
equine assisted practitioner actually
does not go and research the mm-hmm.
Interests of the person
that they're going to serve.
And this is actually one of the,
it's not a pet peeve, it's just
a limitation that I observe
frequently in the mindsets of
equestrian minded people is that we
ourselves we're so horse focused.
We find the horse so fascinating with
flabbergasted no space, not brain
Katja Mehlhorn: for anything else.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Other people find them boring.
But then we don't often
transfer that to other things.
And when I'm doing say, horse boy
trainings with young people who are
maybe going into the equine assisted
field, and I'll say, what's the story?
What's the mythology?
What's, what's that tree over
there of this place that we
are doing the training in?
And frequently I'll get a feedback saying,
well, I'm not really interested in that.
And then I'll say, okay,
well get interested.
'cause if you can't keep up a running
commentary of interesting stories around
the place that you're in, how are you
going to involve somebody in the place?
Mm-hmm.
And also, if you are asking a person
to make a change, like become verbal.
Or accept numbers or reduce your anxiety.
I mean, that's a huge thing.
What are you the practitioner
doing to challenge yourself
to make changes all the time?
What language are you learning?
Yeah.
What you know, or are you coming
from this point of view of saying,
I don't need to change, I'm,
you know, I'm the practitioner.
You know, you are the client,
you need to change, and then,
then you've got no tools to Yeah.
And in
Katja Mehlhorn: therapy world
as the concept of the wounded
healer, I'm sure, you know
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Go on about that.
Katja Mehlhorn: But, but that's
kind of the same idea, right?
So if you have gone through
some thing yourself, some trauma
or you, you have wounds, yeah.
Then it is easier to, to relate, I
guess to someone else who does that.
And if you healed, you can.
Yeah.
It's easier to relate to someone else
having to heal and all that shit.
They will have to go
through to, to get there.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you as a
matter of course, research the interests
of your, of the kids that come?
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you
find that you have a certain amount
of people who help you on your team?
Mm-hmm.
Do they do that too, or do they do
it 'cause you tell 'em to do it?
Or do they do it naturally?
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
But, but they're learning, so
that's also a thing to, to develop.
And some people are more
natural at this than others.
Mm-hmm.
But do you find
Rupert Isaacson: it something that you
need to actually emphasize when you're
training people into your program?
Yes.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So, so often, like if you
have new people, there's like,
you do, you have tips for me?
Like, we doing the session.
Well, what should I do?
Mm-hmm.
And I think my, my first tip is
always like at the start, just hang
back and then try to relate to the
client, like what they're doing.
So yeah.
Example, autistic boy is
coming in and sees this new
person and is nervous about it.
So he goes and picks flowers, looks at
the flowers, then yeah, just, just go
and also pick flowers and maybe you get
slower, slowly closer to him and point out
this particularly nice flower you found.
And before you know it, you, you
have kind of a way in with the cat
kid rather than standing there and
waiting for them to come shake your
hand, which is not gonna happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Or
plunking them on a horse
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: At the start
of the session and, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like that you, you, you
said your sessions are generally
about an hour and a half.
I I find that the concept of the hour
long session, unless you already have Yes.
It's
short.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, if you have a lot of good
relationship already with that
person, you can do something in
an hour, but often yeah, it takes
people quite a long time just to
reintegrate into the new environment.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Even if
they come quite regularly.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
I find like half an hour to just arrive.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: And of course you
might do stuff already, but after
half an hour or so, usually I'm
like, okay, now, now you really are
here and, and we can start doing
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
Katja Mehlhorn: Real work.
Rupert Isaacson: Back, back to your
own helpers when you're training them.
This curiosity piece of, of the research.
I I, I just want to stay on that for a
couple more minutes because I do think
it's under, it's not looked at enough.
Will you, do you actually
explicitly tell people, look, this
kid's interested in this thing.
Go on YouTube, go on Wikipedia and find
out some things about this thing so that
you can talk to this kid about this thing.
Do you kind of guide them that?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, sometimes depending
on the kid, because I also have quite
some kids who really come because
they're interested in the horses.
So then it's easy of
course for the helpers.
Yeah.
But yeah, sometimes, and especially
the boys, usually in my experience,
the girls who come mainly come
here because of the horses.
Yeah.
And then the boys come because their
parents are hopelessly overloaded
and try everything and nothing works.
And then they thought,
let's try this horse thing.
And the horse is not the first thing
that the boy cares about, but they, yeah.
If, if they stay, they usually
also end up liking the horse part.
Rupert Isaacson: It's hard
not to, even if the horse
Katja Mehlhorn: has to
be a Formula One car.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
Have you seen some boys actually sort
of transform, transform a little bit
into horseman through your program?
Katja Mehlhorn: Hmm, good question.
I haven't had boys that
stayed that long term.
Like I have girls that I've been
working with like for 10 years now.
Yeah.
Don't have, so the boys
on average stop earlier.
Rupert Isaacson: I have a
theory about why that is, but I
won't see if you agree with it.
I think that the way this isn't just
in the equine assisted world, I think
this is in riding in general it's
presented in the wrong way to boys.
It's usually presented in a way,
in a very feminine based way.
And what I mean by that is the feminine
mind when it comes to riding seems
to accept quite well from the get go,
a certain very structured approach
and a certain attention to detail.
So the idea of sort of lessons.
Can be accepted quite early.
And I feel that with boys, I have to
do a different approach because I've
had a lot of boys stay in my program,
but what I do is I give them, just like
you're talking about with the Formula one
experiences on horseback, which are fun
mm-hmm.
But require no knowledge of, or
even control of the horse, but
we are doing something, we're
gonna hit that thing or hit that
person from the horse or whatever.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
I, that, that totally fits my experience.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And then yeah, boys,
Katja Mehlhorn: I have to put more
effort into entertaining them.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
But then if one does, then to get them
to stick with the horses I find there's
got to be a big adrenaline component.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
In general, I'm not, I mean,
obviously there's boys who.
Don't fit that.
But so where I was lucky, you know, I
grew up in this hunting, jumping, cross
country, amateur racing culture in the
east of England, which it's really high
adrenaline, so a lot of boys stay with it.
And you look at cowboying which is
also kind of really interesting,
multifaceted boys tend to stay
in that down here in Spain.
I'd say the majority of the
local boys in this area ride.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because it's doma,
Vara, they're working the cows.
They go hunting.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's not
just riding in a ring.
You know, and learning how to do a
shoulder in, but then what I find
is that when they've had their
adrenaline fix enough, then they kind
of want to learn how to do it better.
And then that's when you can say to them
sort of somewhere around mid adolescence,
well, all that stuff that are boring
stuff those girls have been doing
since they were seven years old, that
actually is going to improve your game.
Yeah.
And at that point, they're like, oh, okay.
But it's really difficult within
the sort of modern riding thing.
And then if you add to that, the
peer pressure that boys go under
when they're at school to not ride.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
' Rupert Isaacson: cause it's a girl thing.
Katja Mehlhorn: It's so,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
It's
Katja Mehlhorn: something that we,
we are on this bike path, right?
So our outdoor arena is right
at this bike path that lots
of locals take to school and.
Almost every day, there is teenage
boys who have to shout something to the
horses, like, horse riding is not sport.
Something about horses being eaten.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, really?
Katja Mehlhorn: There must be such a
fascination from the horses that they
feel drawn to do this every time.
Even we don't react.
I mean, they don't get anything out
of it as far as I see, but they just,
yeah, there's always boys who have
to do that much more than girls.
That
Rupert Isaacson: means that deep
down, they actually want it.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
That's my theory.
But obviously they would
probably disagree if I say that.
Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.
But I, I just remember myself at
school, like, all the negative peer
pressure I got because I was riding.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, you're a girl, you're
gay, you're this, you're that.
And I had to withstand all
of that including physical
fights sometimes around it.
And then I would find myself in
a largely female world, which
in late childhood, early a.
This is not
much fun and deal with the exclusivity of,
you know, c clique-ish adolescent girls.
Also giving me a lot of negative
feedback for being the only boy.
Mm-hmm.
And I had to withstand both of
those things in order to just
do the thing that I loved.
And if I hadn't been really
motivated, like I was, I don't
think I would've stuck with it.
The, the peer pressure
would've been too much.
And also the negative pressure from the
girls wanting, not wanting to see boys.
Katja Mehlhorn: Is it also
something about role models?
Rupert Isaacson: I think so.
So again, this is something I think can be
really good with somebody like you is one
things I'm very grateful to grow, having
grown up male is that I had all these
really strong female role models growing
up because I did grow up around horses.
Therefore, there were all these
strong female leaders because that's.
As we know, the horsey ladies
have that leadership thing.
That meant that later in life when I was
coming to the professional world, having
women bosses, having women colleagues,
it was never a thing for me at all.
I was just like, well, of course, because
I've just been surrounded by, I, I will
take absolutely orders from a woman
because she knows what she's doing.
You Yeah, yeah, of course
you're going to do that.
Whereas I saw other
men struggle with that.
And at the same time, I was lucky I
had some good male role models Yeah.
In that world who could,
you know, give me a bit of backup and
reassurance when I was feeling bad from
either the rejection of the, of the girl
clique or the rejection of the boy clique.
But we don't make it interesting for boys.
You know, the, so one of the
things I find works really well
is doing the medieval games.
Have them work, the lance, have them
work the sword, have a quintain,
you can j stat, that sort of thing,
have something you can whack.
These types of things.
Then they can go back to their
male friends and say, I hit people
on horseback with this thing.
Yeah.
Then suddenly it's cool.
But I do think that there
is a deep seated, actually
longing for horses within boys.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
I, I saw a book, it was a Facebook, so
I would have to double check, but the,
a book about horse genetics that just
came out and I don't remember the name.
Okay.
Like thousand years of something.
And they argued according to the
Facebook post, so careful that there
was some genetic selection also
in horses and human co evolvement.
I'm, I'm not sure exactly what.
How they stated it.
But basically, so they said there
is a genetic component like that.
There are some people who just
are really drawn to horses.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just doing,
I'm looking it up right now.
Gen genetic component for what?
Horse people?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
That some people are just
Rupert Isaacson: look
Katja Mehlhorn: more into horses,
but da should have written it down.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
all there in the genes.
Horses, traits, inheritability,
people in horses have, ooh,
hold on.
Well maybe I should put book.
You said it was a book?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, it was a book
by the genetics of horses in general.
So apparently there was some
Rupert Isaacson: genetics of horses,
Katja Mehlhorn: some mutation that
Rupert Isaacson: yes
Katja Mehlhorn: to the
domestication or was related
to the domestication of horses.
Rupert Isaacson: I've got this thing.
I'm Googling of course.
The horse.com.
What a great name for a website.
Why didn't I think of that?
It's all in the genes, horse
traits and her heritability.
Let's just have a quick look at this.
Ba ba scientists are continuing to
uncover which genes are responsible
for certain traits in horses.
Okay?
Why are you drawn to a horse, a flashy
coat color, a puppy dog personality,
smooth as molasses gates where your
dream horse didn't come by these trades
by a happenstance, blah, blah, blah.
But this is more about
what makes different horses
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In their genetic I'm
just intrigued by that because mm-hmm.
I think your point about the boys
shouting insults as they go by means
that they're noticing the horse
and they feel that they have to
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: React and respond
in the same way that, you know, boys.
Might do that to girls, you know, and
shout something, which means that they're
attracted to the girls because otherwise
they wouldn't feel some desire to
Katja Mehlhorn: exactly say something,
Rupert Isaacson: even if
it's not a helpful thing.
But I sort of agree with you
that we've, we've got we've got
a heritage of what, 4,000
years minimum of domestication.
But before that we hunted horses a lot.
So we must have had a real draw.
Like if you go to the cave paintings,
those 30,000 year old cave paintings
in southern France, like Chauvet and
Lasko, or in northern Spain, Alta Alta
Mirror and those other ones, there's a
real preponderance of horses painted.
On the wall and these people were hunting
them, but they also seemed to have used
them very much in kind of magic and ritual
because they seem to tra there's a lot
of transference of horse to human and
that sort of thing in that shamanic way.
So if horses were like something that
we really relied upon for hunting,
perhaps because they were large,
perhaps because they could feed a
lot of, okay, wild cows, bison, yes.
But maybe bison are
more dangerous to hunt.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But clearly we've been drawn to
them an awful long time, long
before we started riding them.
Mm-hmm.
And so that, there must have been
people who then became like the
horse hunters or the horse shaman.
And then you add then the
riding cultures coming in.
Thousands of people, millions of
people sweeping across the steps
into, from the yamaya to the, you
know, the early bronze age to getting
up to the huns and the goths and.
You know, you, you look a bit goth to me.
You know?
You're there come, you're from that
area in eastern, eastern Germany.
I've for sure got some
of that goth blood in me.
How could we not?
And course the Netherlands, as you
know, up until very recently, was a
very widespread equestrian culture
just in terms of agriculture as well.
Mm-hmm.
Those kids who are cycling
by surely carry a genetic.
Yeah.
I wonder, it makes me wonder what
one could do to harness that.
Like, even if it's just a, even if it's
just a conversation between you and the
client who's working with the horse as
you're that, as that boy goes by, do you,
do you talk to your clients and say, why
do you think that boy feels the need to.
React and respond to the horse.
Do you think he's secretly
longing for the horse?
Like do you have that
kind of conversation?
Yeah, think
Katja Mehlhorn: we certainly do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that, that indeed that, that,
that was a conclusion that also
came out of those discussions.
Like, yeah, they probably secretly,
they wanna actually be in here with us
Rupert Isaacson: and because that's,
that's, that's such a portal to looking
at human behavior and ambiguity and
ambivalence and how people say one
thing and mean another and Yeah.
Do, do, do those conversations
then go from that point?
Katja Mehlhorn: Ah, so many
of them I am Sometimes, yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes it goes directly to the
annoying big brother or, so there
is that which opens other, like,
things that you can talk about,
Rupert Isaacson: genetic
component for horse people.
Test results.
I'm, now, I'm getting a bit,
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I'll,
I'll look up the book.
I'll send you the name once I find it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Because I always
think like, as long as I can think
I love horses, even though I'm
totally not from a horse family,
like, what, what is this thing?
And I live on my farm with my own
horses and I go on vacation and
the first thing I do is look where
are there horses that I can look?
I mean, how crazy is that?
So what, what makes that urge so big?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Your husband is not
a horse person particularly, right?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Weird, right?
Rupert Isaacson: What does,
but he's a brain person.
I know that we, we are gonna
have him hopefully on the
live free, ride free podcast.
What does he make of your horse success?
Brain.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
Very interesting.
So I think he was the first
one who really took it serious.
I remember one of our first dates, we
were sitting in a cafe and I was kind
of rambling off about the horse I was
working with at the moment, and he
just looked at me fascinated and he.
Wow, your eyes are sparkling.
You are shining when you
talk about this horse.
Wow.
You really love horses.
And I thought like, wow.
No, like everyone always just
like, was like, yeah, she's talking
about her horses again, blah.
And he just took it serious.
So that, that was really cool.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
No note to all blokes out there on dates
for Coursey girls react positively.
Yeah.
Does he, what does he make of it now?
That because, you know, he's had
to make big lifestyle changes
and move out to the country.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.
He lives on a farm for this.
Yeah.
I, I always secretly was kind of
hoping that the, the virus would like.
Kick in on him, which hasn't,
which I totally can't understand.
I mean, he, he, he's fine now with
caring for them and getting, moving
them, and secretly he apparently also
talks to them when I'm not there.
I heard, I
Rupert Isaacson: bet he does,
Katja Mehlhorn: but he just doesn't have
to drive to really do something with them.
But he is, I think he's happy that,
that I have that as, as a passion.
And does he runner?
So for him, running is his big passion.
So it's good if you both have your
own thing, because otherwise I
think you get in this situation that
the one gets jealous of the hobby.
Well, but yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Own
Katja Mehlhorn: hobby
in my case of the Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I don't
think we can say it's a hobby.
I think we can say it's a culture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting
and I bet you your horses actually do
their own diplomatic charm offensive
on him when you're not looking.
Because it's interesting.
He must find it also to some
degree, peaceful and fulfilling
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To live
this life on this farm.
And find his own place within it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That in itself is probably worth picking
apart at some later date in terms of
its therapeutic aspects, in terms of,
you know, the pressures he might be
under at work and that sort of thing.
Maybe I'll, I'll talk to him
about this and we do the podcast.
All right.
Finally, he's a good segue
actually into your other world.
So you are still teaching
at the university.
Mm-hmm.
And you teach ai or at
least you teach about ai.
But as you said to me before we hit
record on this, you help actually
students who are studying AI learn to
actually old school styley, dinosaur
styley actually research so that they
don't end up falling into the obvious,
you know, traps and rabbit holes.
That AI can do.
And we know that AI makes things up.
And my dad did a really funny experiment.
My dad's Zimbabwean.
Mm-hmm.
And the main tribe in
Zimbabwe is the Shauna.
And so he challenged AI to chat GPT to
give him an essay on the influence of
Chaa, the 14th century English writer Cho
Jeffrey Chaa, who wrote the Canterbury
Tales on Ana medieval literature.
And it gave him this whole thing.
Well, there wasn't any macuna literature
influenced by Chauser, that's for sure.
And it didn't matter.
Chat, GPT produced him a whole thesis.
Yep.
So how do you find that your
horse practice in your equine
assisted practice and this academic
helping people to still uncover.
As close to the truth as they
can, you know, in research
there's an interplay there.
Talk to us about that.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, that's funny.
Like often people hear that I'm
doing those two things and they're
like, oh, that's so different.
They're like, yeah, but it's not
really that different because in,
in both cases, I teach people and I
kind of have to figure out what they
know and what they are interested
in and, and take them from there.
And of course, the content you're
teaching is largely different.
But the, the, the process of
kind of tuning in on, on the
learner and then helping them
grow is actually really similar.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I would also posit surely that
when you are working with horses
professionally, you have to
continually develop yourself, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like you said earlier okay.
At an earlier point in your life, you'd
have rejected my whole dressy thing.
But then you get to a certain point
where you realize, well, I'm actually
a bit limited with my horses, how
I, I must now look for other things.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe rupert's dressy thing is
actually worth looking at alongside,
you know, 20 other things.
I must keep expanding my practice.
I must keep expanding my did you
notice a, an interplay yourself between
cultivating that kind of curiosity and
research, having to help people do that?
Mm-hmm.
And
keeping your own equine assisted
practice growing and not stagnating
rather than just saying, okay, I'll
do my horse thing over here and I
do it like this, and that's how I
do it, and I just die on that hill.
But over here I'm like
the big curiosity person.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: So, so again, I,
I am just a very curious person.
Yeah.
And, and that, that works for, with
the clients, but that also works
for like with, with the horses.
Sometimes I find a bit annoying of myself.
Like whenever I learn something,
my first thought is like, okay,
what else can you do with, with it?
Or, so, so I'm very bad at sticking
to a system and just doing that.
I always wanna know more and
secretly think I can do better, so
that, that, that helped definitely.
And, and I guess that is also what you
need in science to, to be curious and
see, okay, what, what else is there?
Because yeah, we know a lot, but
there's a lot more that we don't know.
So yeah.
How can we get there?
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you have any
of your academic students come out to
the farm and work with the horses at all?
And if so, yeah.
How and why?
Katja Mehlhorn: That's
been a while at the start.
Yeah.
Then it was more like, like
colleagues, I guess when you're
younger, people are more into.
Experimenting with hobbies or so.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what were you, what was
motivating the colleagues to come out and
check out your equine assisted practice?
They were coming as clients or they
were coming just to kind of hang
with a horse and, and see what's
this horse thing that captured us?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
Both, both.
I would, I would say, yeah, but also just
like to, to, to get lessons, for example.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: And now I'm actually
teaching the kids of my colleagues more.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Well, there you go.
The, I'm just thinking in terms
of the, the students, do you know,
have you met Amanda Menini, Dr.
Amanda Menini?
No.
She lives in Colorado.
She's obviously Italian.
And I work with her periodically.
She has a, she teaches at Colorado
College in Colorado Springs, and
she has an equine assisted practice
that's really there to help.
Address anxiety in the students.
Mm.
And she started this it's called Eagle
but it's spelled a different acronym,
but I'll try to include it in the show
notes or I'll get her on the show.
She has found it's been
quite an invaluable thing.
Mm.
And she gets people to come out to the
farm and helps with anxiety there, but
she also brings horses onto campus.
Hmm.
I'm just wondering if that's a sort of
a, I'm, I'm planting that seed in you.
Yes.
Katja Mehlhorn: Interesting.
Because I, right now I would kind
of almost see a bit of a conflict of
interest to kind of use my university
connections to get clients for my farm.
Not that I need clients, but
Rupert Isaacson: well,
you could do it pro bono.
You could do it.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, you could do that
Rupert Isaacson: pro bono service.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Yeah.
But I actually, I, I'm gonna stop
working for the university because the
farm is just outgrowing me otherwise.
Okay.
And I guess then then, then it's not
a conflict of interest anymore to,
Rupert Isaacson: well, that,
'cause that just seems to me a,
a such a logical thing to do.
Yeah.
Because, you know, I think that
new intake of students post COVID
mm-hmm.
Who
were like high school or middle
school as well, COVID was going on.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Who were the
most, the most impacted by COVID
seemed to have brought a fragility.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Totally.
Yeah.
And I, I, I can't imagine that your farm.
Would not help with that.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: We, we are seeing, so
I'm responsible for the, the first year
students at our program, university
program, and we see a lot of, of mental
challenges and, and mental health issues.
Yeah.
That re reason has
increased over the years.
Also challenges in kind of
work ethic kind of, yeah.
Why should I go to lectures if I can
study it at home with my own video?
Which of course then you
don't do, because Yeah.
Yeah.
That's how we are as humans.
So yeah.
First year students need way more
help with things outside of the
actual content of the program we
are finding than, than they used to.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Be curious
to see how you Yeah.
How you develop that.
Mm-hmm.
Have a feeling that you will yeah.
Always.
Curious in what Catcher Melhorn is up to.
So,
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah, me too.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Alright.
Well this has been a
really great conversation.
I've really enjoyed, I think the, the,
the, this, the theme that seems to run
through this for me is curiosity and the
importance of staying curious on a really
active and, and deliberate level like ai.
Just, just the fact that you said,
I think if, if there's one real good
takeaway from this conversation for
someone in this feels is yeah, get
on YouTube and Wikipedia and go and
research the interests of your client,
especially if you find that actually a
bit boring because that's kind of our
job and you'd think that that would be.
Obvious, but it, it is actually
a bit counterintuitive.
I, I, I love the fact that you brought
this to our attention before we wrap up.
The first thing is how do people find you?
I'm sure people will be
seeking mentorship from you.
And can they do that?
And then the second thing
is just what's next?
Where do you want the program to go?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
So people can find me on my website,
which is just my name, Katya melhorn.nl.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dot nl.
Yeah.
Katya with A-J-K-A-T-J-A.
And Melhorn.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: MELH.
Katja Mehlhorn: M-E-H-L-H-L-M-E-H-H-O-R-N?
Yes.
M-E-H-M-E-H-L-M-E-H-L-H-O-N.
Rupert Isaacson: H-O-R-N-M-E-H-L-H-O-R-N?
Yes.
Okay.
QH as in there.
All right.
Yeah.
So NL.
Yes.
Okay.
Catch ton nl.
If people want to come check your
program out email, you ask you questions,
get training from you, get mentorship
from you, can they contact you there?
Katja Mehlhorn: Certainly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I would recommend it.
Listeners, catcher runs a really,
really, really good program.
You, you want to pick her?
Right?
And then just before we go, dream a
little where, where do you want to
go with this and where do you want
to see, where do you want to see
the, the equine assisted world go?
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh yeah.
Two, two good questions.
So the, the first one I am, that's
really on my mind right now, like, where
do I wanna go with this, given that
I'm gonna quit my well paying fixed
university job, which is kind of scary.
Must
Rupert Isaacson: be mad.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I know.
It took me 10 years to bring up the
courage, so I'm very, it feels really
relieving now that I took this.
Okay.
So, so I, it, I what I really would like
to work here with a team of more people
because now I just work with volunteers
and I just get so much energy from
working with others and also with clients.
You see that one client clicks
better with the other person.
Person and you can really
like working together.
Yeah.
You just get more out out of it, I
think for the client and for yourself.
Some direction we've been
thinking is to work with people
who can't go to high school.
Or to, to schools.
So there's a lot in the Netherlands, I
don't know how that's in other countries.
Rupert Isaacson: School refuses.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: School refuses
or, or at risk of mm-hmm.
Or they only go an hour per day.
And Yeah.
Ideally you wanna improve the
schools that you don't need places
like this where they can come to.
So we are working on that with
Henri and an parallel thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So listeners, that's Henrik Berkoff
who was on Live free, ride Free, but
Kacha and Henrik, Henrik and Giddy Run
an amazing horse boy and other general
therapeutic farm in central Germany.
And they with Katya have got a cross
border interesting project going on.
And
Katja Mehlhorn: not just with
the other Dutch shareholders.
By practitioners.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So we, we, we will be reporting on that.
Katja Mehlhorn: I'm
curious how, how that, and
Rupert Isaacson: that's about
actually improving the schools.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: In what way?
Like how.
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, making
them so that we don't have all
those kids have to drop out.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
But I mean, what, what's,
what's sort of in the plan that
you've got to help that happen?
What are you drafting up?
Katja Mehlhorn: So the, the
idea is to get the, the movement
method principles more in there.
So as we already said earlier,
movement nature, following more the
interest of the child so that they can
actually see the purpose of numbers.
Other than that the teacher tries
to torture them and, and there's a
lot of those kind of things already
going on in schools at some level.
I have the feeling, but it seems
to stay kind of, yeah, this teacher
at this school is trying that, and
then there's this program over here.
But yeah, it would be great to
have it much more on a larger scale
Rupert Isaacson: movement.
Yeah.
Well, I'd be very grateful to you if you
can not, if you can, as you knowing you
and Henrik, you're gonna get it going.
Yeah.
I'll be extremely grateful.
And, and then we'll have you
back on the show, I think, to
talk about how that's going.
The equine assisted world in general.
Where would you like to see it go?
Yeah.
How would you like to see it develop?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
There is so much right now also about
equine welfare in the Netherlands.
There's this big discussion like
our horses, or do we, should
we even still ride horses?
There's like some politicians
who think we shouldn't.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that would be such a shame
because I mean, we already touched
on this couple of times in this
conversation that there's just this, yeah.
This spark, this magic, this, this
something between humans and horses
that, that, that we can use for our
welfare and our sanity in this crazy
digital, busy, stressful world.
That.
That.
So hopefully we, we move towards
more equine welfare and also
towards more human welfare.
By, by, by pairing them up.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It seems to me that this idea
of public license and, you know,
should we be doing it although it's
good that we should always examine,
you know, what we do, At the same
time, there's something in it that
saddens me because it seems to me about
just yet another removal from nature.
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You know, arm horses are nature.
Our interaction with them is nature.
Okay.
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
And the, the, it would be such a
shame because I mean the, the people
that give it a bad image that.
That treat the horses as, as the
sports tools for the money and
that maybe reject the or Yeah.
Don't take welfare as
important as, as it could be.
They then damage it for everyone.
I mean, there's all those people
who are trying to really do it in a
way that is nice for the horse and
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: The horse can do it.
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
I agree.
It's I think it's a necessary
conversation, but I hope that it
doesn't swing to an extreme that ends up
mm-hmm.
Harming both horses and humans.
Because horses are a domestic species
and, you know, the next thing we'll
say, well, should we own dogs?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And, you know, and then
Katja Mehlhorn: it, how about that?
Rupert Isaacson: And if, if, if the answer
to that is also No and all of that, then.
What interactions with nature
are we allowed to have,
particularly for urban populations.
Katja Mehlhorn: And I mean, just
going back to the example with
the apples, if you don't know what
a natural apple looks like, you
won't like care about the apples.
So if you never interact with an animal,
you won't care for them or protect them.
So yeah, you, you have
to, I wonder if, I wonder
Rupert Isaacson: if, you know, you, you,
you, you were talking about this lady in
Virginia Brook Hill Farm, and I actually
work in a very similar place in Chicago
quite often called Triple H Ranch.
Really good places where they
do exactly the same thing.
They, they take rescue horses and
my God, are some of these horses
in a bad way when they come in?
Like, I hadn't seen horses that
emaciated since, like living in, I
used to live in India for a while
and I saw, you know, horses that were
living on the street and that sort of
thing, you know, terrible conditions.
You think in America it's.
Quite difficult to get a
horse in that condition.
'cause there's like
grass growing everywhere.
You know, you've actually
gotta try quite hard.
Yeah.
If you don't like the horse, you can
always just open the gate and let it
out and it'll find grazing somewhere.
Someone will pick it up.
Right.
In the same way that people dump
dogs, people do dump horses that way.
So to, to get a horse to that level of
starvation is like how but nonetheless,
I saw horses coming in like that and
then her saw her rehab them and her
client base being the rehabers as
exactly as you said, maybe we need to
somehow have more of an emphasis on
this in our equine assisted programs.
And I am hoping to, we're doing a lot of
outreach at the moment to the sport world.
Ireland is a really good mover and
shaker in this horse sport island.
Mm-hmm.
Which governs everything from racing to.
Show jumping to equine assisted
realized quite recently that the,
it's really the only sector of
the horse industry that's growing.
Hmm.
Equine.
Yeah.
And we are the only ones who
actually can really make a
point of rehabbing and rescue.
And we of course take over the
wastage from the sport world, but
the sport world doesn't have to
operate in a way that wastes horses.
That's just something that's evolved.
Yeah.
Because of a poor economic model.
You know, could we, the equine assisted
practitioners be the ones leading
the way to better practices at the
beginning of the sport process so that
horses get injured less, you know,
have more training in them to look
after their balance and their bodies.
Emotionally, and then also when they move
on from the sport career to then move
more seamlessly into the next career.
I do believe that's possible, and I
do believe that we are the ones with
the technology for that, you know?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So maybe we should
be seeing a bit of that at your farm
to see who from the racing industry,
who from the dressage industry, who
from the jumping industry can we
pair up with and partner up with.
Mm-hmm.
Whether it's aftercare
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Or
Rupert Isaacson: pre-care.
Yeah.
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I think a good point.
You're, you are touching.
There also is visibility like
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Katja Mehlhorn: What I said, like, now
people, at least in the Netherlands, they
see like the examples of the dressage
horses with the blue tongue and the,
and the, and the blood on their mouth.
While all this, I mean, all of us
who work in equine assisted, we know
that cool stuff that's happening.
So I think that needs to be more visible.
Yeah.
Who is better than the people who
already love horses and do sport
with them to, to get it visible to
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Katja Mehlhorn: And,
and, and get involved.
I
Rupert Isaacson: agree.
I also feel that most sport horses
honestly would love to have a
double career, a parallel career
doing the equine assisted stuff.
'cause that's what my horses do.
Like as you know, my horses,
they're dressage horses, they're
jumping horses, they trail horses.
They do it all, but they
also do the therapy work.
Mm-hmm.
They're just like humans.
They love to have variety in their work.
Yeah.
And they like to do more than one thing.
It would be very interesting to
see, could we, could we find some
Dutch high level rider who's willing
to bring their multimillion dollar
horse into the therapy thing?
Yeah.
As a bit of a flagship.
You know what I mean?
That might be an interesting project.
Things like that.
Yeah.
Like can we identify that individual?
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think I just
set myself a challenge there.
Katja Mehlhorn: Nice.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Alright, well I guess that's
what we are gonna do next year.
All right, fine.
Katja Mehlhorn: Cool.
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.
Well thank you so much
Katya, for all of this.
Thank you.
And for the work you do.
And I guess we'll see you soon
over on Live Free Ride free
to talk about AI in the brain.
Katja Mehlhorn: All right.
Rupert Isaacson: All right then.
Until next time,
Katja Mehlhorn: thank you so much.
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
Thank you.
Katja Mehlhorn: Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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