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Brace yourselves for an insightful session where our host Stephen Drew engages in a deep-dive discussion with the accomplished Tania Ihlenfeld.
Curated content, insights and opportunities to accelerate your career in Architecture, Design, Development and Real Estate to the next level.
How do you become an effective leader in Architecture? Ft. Tania Ihlenfeld at Ede Enablers
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[00:00:00]
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Hello, you beautiful people midweek. Put down that Revit model. You know what time it is. I see you over there. Close it down. No CPDs. Today we're gonna learn something better. Interesting. C p D of Life. I haven't got certificates yet though. I'll look into it. Okay, 20 seconds. What else is happening? Fun week.
Dramatic week. Maybe a relaxed week for you. Sun's gone away. 10 seconds.
Hello everyone, and welcome to this livestream special. I'm super happy that you're joining me and we're gonna learn something today, but don't worry, no tricky questions. It's [00:01:00] all gonna be really useful. And it's the kind of thing that I wish I knew because I've set up a business. Hooray, but I didn't know what I was doing.
Ugh. And I, and one of those things is like I had to become a leader. And it's very difficult because, it'd be nice if someone was there to help you on. On that note, I've got someone who is gonna help unpack this topic for us together on how do we become an effective leader, give us some examples and all that cool stuff.
So without further ado, I've got the lovely Tanya who is founder of Eid Enablers. Tanya, how are you?
Tania Ihlenfeld: I am good. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I've waited so long to get on this podcast, I'm here.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: You are here. I, we, I was, we were gonna get to it. We are gonna get to it. Maybe I needed you at this key point now
Tania Ihlenfeld: I know we needed to build up to something, didn't we?
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: We did do, but Tanya, so I'm familiar with the stuff you've done, and I'm sure a lots of people are. But for the benefit of the audience, if the person here is not [00:02:00] familiar with yourself, Tanya, who are you?
Tania Ihlenfeld: Hi, I'm Tanya Einfeld and I'm an Architect author now of Build Success and I've set up my own business too. So I've entered into being an entrepreneur and it's been quite a journey and I'd love to share some of that today. But I think in the beginning, I started out. Probably quite typically in a small Architectural practice in Melbourne, Australia working on residential projects.
But probably quite unusual at the time was I was working at the same time on master plan and urban design projects. So I, very early on I had this window into the small scale crafting of Architecture and the larger scale. Impact of Architecture, and I did love playing at those two different scales, but I think the fact that I had this window into the larger scale, I could see there's all these gaps in my knowledge.
I'm drawing these blocks and moving them around and talking to communities about what's gonna happen in 10, 15 years time. And I just knew, I didn't know enough to really be credible in that conversation. So [00:03:00] I guess I went on a bit of a journey to try and fill that gap. And that led me to London, working in London for the past 16 years and working at Grimshaw London for almost 13 of those years.
And yeah, I was drawn to working on larger and larger, more complex. Projects. And I think it's fair to say that over time there was a gradual progression in growth. But at the same time I was also thrown in the deep end and was really fortunate to work with some incredible people on some amazing projects.
And I think because I've seen all these different scales over time, and I've worked with very large teams at one point, we were a team of a hundred. And I've seen what it takes to run a team like that. And although I've fallen into leadership roles over that time and it felt as though the progression to larger scale and more complex projects was fairly gradual, actually looking back there was, it was just thrown in and just going for it.
And so I got to a point on a project where I just thought, we can't go through that grueling year. [00:04:00] Again, I can't do it to myself. I can't do it to my team. I'm in a leadership position and I don't feel like I can change what's happening here because it's bigger than the project. It's bigger than even though, again, we had an incredible client, incredible project, amazing people around us.
Seriously. And yet with all those things in place, it was still very hard. And I couldn't see myself repeating that grueling year. So I went, I stepped outside of Architectural practice to, to figure out what is it that I can do to improve the way? Projects are run. And although I didn't know it at the time, I guess I was falling back on leadership is the thing I know that I'm skilled at.
And I know that's the key to unlocking so much potential in projects and in teams and in businesses and in the built environment. So I figured that if that's my thing, if that's the one thing I could try and shift and improve, Then I think it could have a much bigger impact and improve the way we live, work, and play.
And I'm especially interested in making sure that there's just a more diverse group of [00:05:00] people stepping into leadership roles and that those teams involved in creating these incredible projects aren't compromised along the way. Cause I think when you certainly, when you come out of Architectural studies and you just.
You feel like you wanna save the world and you feel like design is the way to do that, and it partly is, but then you figure out actually it's design plus the leadership and curation of that throughout a very long period of time. If we're talking about complex projects. So I guess where I'm coming from is I wanna nurture that creativity, but then also give it this real business leadership sense at every stage of the way.
So not just when you hit the leadership role a decade from when you. From when you graduate or something along those lines. Every step of the way. If you understand that this is my contribution that I could make and it's leading me in the right direction, and it's leading the projects in a much better way, then I think we'll be more effective.
I think we'll enjoy what we're doing. I think more people will step into the space and really [00:06:00] be themselves and all of these things.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Brilliant. It makes it's, it makes total sense now. I'll be honest, I've fallen by accident into being a leader. I. At times and we're all human beings. I've so sometimes thought, okay I've led well on this example, and other times I've done it by the skin of my teeth or not as good as I wanted now as an Architect.
We talked about it a little bit before we, we went live. You might become an Architect, you might get your a r b, then you become a project Architect and maybe you get given a part one or a part two and you are supposed to do this project. And that's what I'd like to talk about a little bit today is the first time you start the having leadership responsibilities.
In your experience, Tanya, are there Maybe some common mistakes that people make, or there's some initial things you like people to think about when becoming a responsible or effective leader for the first time.
Tania Ihlenfeld: I think the most common thing is when you are first stepping into a leadership [00:07:00] role, you've just, like the day before you were doing everything, like all the hard yards in terms of the drawings, et cetera, and then suddenly you're in a leadership role. And so it's hard. First of all, it's hard to let go of all the things you were doing just yesterday anyway.
But also cuz there's this real sense of control. I know what I'm doing when I'm doing it. I don't necessarily know what I'm doing when I'm asking someone else to do it. So it is, it's quite a transition to, to move into a leadership role, like a pure and simple leadership role. So I would urge you if you're just stepping into this space, just accept that there's gonna be this gradual relinquishing of responsibilities onto somebody else to do some of their hard yards and.
For you, for the fact that you won't know all the details. The further you step into a leadership role, the less detail information you have, but then again, the broader, the bigger picture you have. So it's important that the more you step into this leadership role, you have to relinquish some of the control of the details, but still build the trust with the people around you that you can go and ask [00:08:00] them for the details.
Cuz it's, you need some of that context, but also understand that when you are stepping into leadership and you are seeing the bigger picture that you didn't necessarily before. You are sitting at a decision making table hopefully, or potentially. Or at least invited sometimes. And with that context, cuz that's such important context that you now have feel the need to share that with your team.
Cuz I think that there's just not enough of the right context being shared with teams in order for work to be. Done in the best way possible. So I think it's just, it's, it, I think the initial stages of leadership are probably harder than when you fully step into the role. Cuz when you initially step in, you are, you're ki you're straddling both sides.
You, you've got all the information, all the details, you've done so much of it yourself. You've got all this control. You are, you're probably a perfectionist. And yet you've gotta walk over there and do a meeting and not understand what's gonna happen for two or three hours. And that's really hard.
Some, sometimes. And I think just accepting that. That is the [00:09:00] transition that you need to make, and you can do it in a step-by-step way. It doesn't have to be like completely stepping away and abandoning ship. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: No makes sense. And I was thinking as well cuz a leadership, by nature, I mean is there a fixed definition for it or can it be quite broad? Because a team leader probably needs to be in one sense, a good leader, but equally it could be a BIM Coordinator that's inspiring people to. Start using more Revit compliant models than I don't know, the MicroStation before.
What's your definition of a leader in Architecture?
Tania Ihlenfeld: I love this question cuz for me, this is why I've named my company e Enablers cuz I think a leader is enabling role. So you curate information going up and back. So you. Managing expectations for your client and your stakeholders outside of your projects. And you are managing backwards to your team.
And actually you need your team to be managing up to [00:10:00] you. And so you need to. Be the role model there about how you manage expectations in all directions and be willing and draw it out from your team as well. So I very much see leaders as a curatorial role and enabling role. So you are enabling your team to perform at their best.
You're enabling your client to make the best decisions. You're enabling your stakeholders to have the best possible outcomes. And all of that requires. Such subtleties and nuances with how you deal with people, how you deal with the brief, how you like, all of that just requires such a steady hand in a way and such an eye for what can and can't work, or you have to shift gears and all of that, all those sensibilities come when you, I guess when you shift your mindset of I'm not someone who's gonna dictate things, I'm going to enable things.
And that changes the way you behave.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Yeah. Very interesting. So I agree because, so leadership is important because you need to get people behind you, especially on these projects. And you [00:11:00] touched upon it at the start, that, you get given a project, you've probably been or be previously all over that project, like a project Architect, you know that, and now you're delegating.
But what people in Architecture Architects, I'm sure a lot of it, you spend so much time learning too. Build buildings, get all the regulations and stuff. So how important then, is leadership as a skill, in your opinion? Can it push a project further or equally? Have you seen it that if, for instance, there isn't a sense of leadership on the project, that it can actually slow down a project from being delivered?
Tania Ihlenfeld: Yeah, look, I, when I went to write my book, when I was trying to find my voice, cuz that was actually the whole reason for writing the book. It wasn't just to write a book, it was honestly to. Work out, what is it that I can bring to the profession to shift gears? If I'm gonna step outside of Architectural practice, it needs to be worth it.
What do I think I can offer and where is my credibility going to be? And in [00:12:00] researching this whole leadership thing both in, inside and outside of the industry, it's actually, it's really curious that if you look at why projects fail, there's a lot of research that says it's, it's poor communication and it's.
Poor management of accountabilities, which I completely agree with, but all of these things, and there's a whole list of things that happen, but those are the top two. And if you think about it, le, the leadership role can absolutely shape that, which has a pivotal role to play in, in, in the project success.
And I think a lot of project success is determined in the early days of a project. And so this is where you really need some strong leadership that can see things ahead that haven't happened yet. And you can just understand the terrain you are working with. So you need a certain level of experience.
You need the vision, like the ability to see a vision, hold a vision, and understand how that will play out and in order to make these really good decisions in the beginning, before you've got the right [00:13:00] information. And. Yeah, so I, I think leader leadership is key to any project success, and that's why I'm so keen that people lead before they lead, and we develop this next generation of leaders that are more courageous, who can say, not necessarily just know to a client, but.
Not now to a client or this is why I'm, we're not gonna do this now because of these reasons. I wanna protect you on this. We're going to look, we're gonna do a deeper dive into this one particular issue now because it's less expensive for us to fit to, to sort this out now than it will be down the track.
It might be painful now, and no one on the team might wanna think about it, but do you know what it's the right thing to do. And so all of those managing expectations, and they're not easy conversations to have. And, but you need, so I'm really pushing for leaders to be more courageous and to bring themselves to the table.
I don't know this informa, I don't have this technical knowledge. I was brought, my background is design and okay, I don't have the technical knowledge. I'm gonna bring someone in who does, and you are gonna facilitate and enable that conversation. [00:14:00] So I think this is it. If you're a leader, people just assume you've gotta know everything.
No you can't. It's impossible. Especially in our profession where there's just so many things at play. And I think just having that understanding of no, but the leader isn't going to have to know everything, but they're going to figure out where the information is and they're gonna bring those people to the table.
And that's not what has been happening up and until now, really. So I think this is where there's a shift, and this is where more people can step up and say I've got these people skills. I've got these abilities to understand, read the room and understand the team and understand what the client needs.
They're amazing skills. You should step into a leadership role if that's you, because we need more of that. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: I think you're right. It's very important. Now we touched upon earlier, okay, you've gotta let things going stuff, but the other part of being a leader is you've gotta have a conversation. With people and part of that can be, saying, okay, we need to do this and that, but then sometimes.[00:15:00]
As a leader, you have to correct things. You have to have that conversation. And if you're shy, I found that years ago. I know I talk for a living now all the time, but I used to be really nervous about confrontation because sometimes you need to have that conversation. And what I was gonna say to you is in terms of a leader, someone's thinking, oh, I, I'm more of a background person or anything.
Is there some things that people can do to start. Getting into the leadership role, which suits a quieter demeanor of someone that doesn't like confrontation,
Tania Ihlenfeld: yeah. I love that because I'm also a champion for leaders. Don't need to be extroverts. I'm not an extrovert. I've written a book. I'm as introvert as they come. But I just if I'm passionate about something, I will find my way to speak up. But it has taken me a long period of time. In fact, there was a period of time where my directors would say to me, Look Tanya, I could see your expression throughout that design review, but you didn't say anything like what's going on there?
Like what? You didn't say anything. And I was thinking at the time it was so intimidating. There was no way I could speak [00:16:00] up. It was just, so many egos at play and all these things. Although I wanted to say something which I thought was important, I just couldn't figure out a way to do it. So I've certainly had my moments where, Honestly, it's just hard, but I do believe that leaders don't need to be extroverts, but you do have to play to your strengths.
So if you are someone who's really shy about confrontation, I think it's just about saying, look, I'm going in with the intent to make this situation better. So if that means I'm gonna have to pull this person aside and say, look, what you're doing is potentially damaging some other things that are happening, or potentially will limit what you are able to do in the future.
And I don't wanna see that for you. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let's have a chat about this. And it's not a judgment on you, but I want to see this improve that's gonna help you. It's going to decrease your hours. It's going to help you build bonds with the rest of the team and all these things. I think it's about coming in with the right intent.
So even if you're shy, just going you know what? I care about this project and I care about this team, so I'm gonna pick a quiet space. And I'm just [00:17:00] gonna have a quiet conversation with this person because I care. And I think if you go in with that intent, you don't need to have bravado, you don't need to have, it's just that you care and you've picked a quiet moment.
And you probably still need to have the right amount of coffee beforehand to really egg yourself up that you're doing the right thing. But I would still err on the side of. That's the right thing to do. And you could even preface the whole thing with, look, I'm not comfortable with these types of conversations, but I really care about what's happening here.
And that's just, that just puts it all on the table. And I think the more people we have in leadership roles, having conversations like that, The better it will be, because it's not like you, there's an expectation of, this is the way we talk to our team. As a leader, that's the way you talk to, no, there's so many different ways to talk to your team, and it's important that you find your own way to do that.
And it doesn't mean standing up in front of a large crowd every time. In fact, sometimes it's really worthwhile to do the exact opposite and pull someone aside and really make them feel safe and seen and heard. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: [00:18:00] I agree. It's it's interesting and when I say the word confrontation, I don't mean necessarily going into an argument. However, by the nature of a project, sometimes there's gonna be disagreements or things that need to be done and that frank conversation needs to be had. No, I really understand what you're saying.
I think that disarming honesty really helps actually, because when you set the scene, usually that can. Calm things down. What I'm interested in though is because Architecture now, one of the unfortunate scenarios of the industry is that as architects, you have clients, there are deadlines, and deadlines can be organized so that.
You're not doing allnighters and stuff, however, a live project, sometimes things don't always go your way now. What's your perspective then as a leader in handling, for example, a very tricky deadline or an unfortunate thing that's come up in the project? How would you go about going for that tricky situation of being [00:19:00] like, we need to have a push on the project, but then you are also conscious that you don't wanna work people into the ground because that's just not good for business.
Tania Ihlenfeld: Yeah, and that's in many ways why I had to pull out of the project I was in thinking I can't see a way to manage this, like in this. Sustainable way going forward because I do think that when leaders are setting up programs and knowing that there are these big mountains to climb and you can see them ahead and you know they're coming and the whole team knows they're coming, and then there's always a, oh, we'll take a little break afterwards, and then suddenly 10 things arrive that.
Needed to get done instantly, and then the break just goes away. So I do think this is, again, back to this point of being a courageous leader, I do think we need leaders saying, you know what, this is just gonna be completely up. We're completely up against it on this. We might have to do this push now, but what can we do?
What can we do to make sure this. The decision making is speedy to make sure that all the other things are in place so that it's not overly extended. We're doing the best we can with what we [00:20:00] have. I do think that we are, as architects, we are on the side of furnishing our clients with 10 times more than they actually need.
And I do think we can get better at saying, you know what, if we're gonna help our clients make decisions, we're gonna give them less, but give them higher quality and we're gonna give them the map of how to make the right decisions. I think that would be a much smarter way of working. But I know we've got some way to go to do that, so I do appreciate that in some situations you've worked so hard to prepare the right information and to make all the right decisions and to put the right support teams in place, and you've done everything and yet you're still up against it for a two week period.
Then I would say like a two week period, if it's acknowledged that you've done everything you can to make that as, as smooth and as pain free as possible. Then that's probably doable. But then immediately afterwards you've gotta then be so strong and say, we are not gonna push our team for the next month after that, or at least the next few weeks.
And or what do we need to put in place in order to help our client make decisions? That's not [00:21:00] gonna put the pressure on our team, cuz that's just not helpful, especially on these projects that go on and on because it just sets an expectation on the client side that they can ask and they will get.
10 times what they need every single time. And although you, of course, you wanna overdeliver for your client, but you also need to manage expectations. I do think that as well. We've got this passion inside our teams that says, I can do this, I can do this. And then it takes longer than you think, cuz it's hard to know.
Some days it really is. And if you're tired, things take longer or you're waiting on somebody else to do something and that didn't deliver and you don't wanna call them out and all of that stuff, then you know, I think there's just an element of you can't predict. Everything when it comes to time, especially when it's creative stuff.
And I think then you've just gotta have some backstops. What else can we, if we really had to pull something at the last minute off. Off the the delivery, what could we pull off and just have those thoughts beforehand, have the negotiations just in case if we need to pull something out, what's it gonna be?
[00:22:00] And then we'll prioritize that afterwards and things like that. I know I might be making it sound easier than it is. I appreciate it's not easy. But just making strides towards being more courageous with your team and and equally to your leaders. If you are in the team going, I've just been asked to do this thing and it's on top of everything else, there's no way I can deliver it.
But if you are not able to say it, then sometimes the leader's just not gonna understand. You can't deliver it. Oh, it might be that they don't want to hear there's, that's a different situation, but at least make it. Clear to them that this is just, it's something has to be compromised here or some or what will be delivered will not be up to standard.
And that's not a reflection on you, that's a reflection on how many things are going on. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: I I agree. I think that having been on both sides, there's been times when I've been a team player and I've been thinking, oh, I wish I could talk about this, or When's my salary review gonna come up, and all this stuff. But also now I've been in the team leader position, I. I think [00:23:00] usually there's good intentions there.
Like you said, there's the rare exceptions, but usually there's good intentions there. But equally, when you run in with a project, you can forget stuff. And what I was gonna ask you is that sometimes when I've been younger and maybe a bit more and new in the professional world and stuff, Say now my review wasn't coming up.
I would slightly, I would start to get resentful. And and then you don't say anything. So you're burying this, it's building up, what would your opinion, what would your advice be to someone who is under leadership, but would like to bring something up with a leader? How is a good way to do it that you think will be received hopefully in the best light?
Tania Ihlenfeld: Yeah, I think that often the problem you have inside a team is that you don't have full context of things. And I think this has gotten me into trouble a few times. I have to admit, when I've thought I've understood the context and it just, it was different. So I just think that. If you've got some particular things you wanna tackle with your leaders, just do what you [00:24:00] can to understand the bigger picture that might not be immediately clear to you.
For example, your leader has instructed you to do something which you feel is wrong, but actually when it comes down to it, you're not really sure where that's come from. Does it come from the client? As that come from the stakeholders? So I think just doing what you can with the limit, with the information, which I appreciate sometimes is limited.
What can you do to understand the. The slightly broader picture of the question or the thing you would like to discuss. And it might be that you, you can talk about it to someone else in the team or, what do you know about this? Or what do I Just wanna make sure I've got a full understanding of that.
And cuz I think when you approach a leader with, You know what? I don't think I've got all the right information here. I think it's along these lines, or I think it's along that, but I'm on this path and I'm really keen to do this. I'd love your opinion as to whether that is the right thing. I feel like I'm working really hard.
I'm not sure I'm being seen and recognized, and I'd love to understand why. So I think it's just, if you come in with this, I'm, I'm not necessarily. Sure I've got all the context [00:25:00] right. I think it might be this, correct me if I'm wrong. It could be that, or, and I think it's just understanding the frame of where you sit and where you wanna be.
And I think it's a little bit like that, that conversation we had about confrontation. If you just come in with a, I, this is my perspective and I appreciate that. My perspective might be limited at this point because I'm not in those decision making circles or I'm not in this wider team session, or whatever it might be.
So I think if you just come in with that under the understanding where your context or your frame of reference is and that it might be limited, I think that's a good starting point. And I also think just. Acknowledging something about your leader because or your team, if you are seen as somebody who is observing and learning from others, then I think your leader would be more willing to share with you because they can see, oh, this is how.
Oh, this is how you you seem to appreciate this, so I can see that's gonna really benefit you. And yeah. So I think it, it depends a little bit on the leader you are talking [00:26:00] to. So just take a bit of a moment to understand, how it is they talk to you and how you'd like them to talk to you.
And I would speak in the way you'd like them to talk to you because you can be the role model for your leader. Absolutely. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: I agree. It's very true. While we were talking, Anya says Fantastic topic. So thank you Anya. Equally, if anyone here wants to drop a comment or a question to, to ask Tanya where we have her, please do. I'm gonna quickly bring up the link of where your stuff is, and I know you're gonna tell everyone where in more detail about the book and all that stuff, but let's bring it up on the screen while I ask you another question, Tanya.
So what I was gonna say, Tanya in particular is, that's a really good example about how then you can start to make yourself more seen to your team leader. Team leaders are not mind readers. You need to have that conversation now. In terms of leadership, you can be a leader without the job, the title [00:27:00] of team leader.
And actually you made a really good point that if you are doing stuff above and beyond, then actually maybe your team leader can start giving you more and more responsibilities to lead within the team. Do you have any maybe small, practical tips as how someone can start doing that's not seen as, Micromanaging not seen as being bossy in the negative sense.
How would you start to become a leader or do stuff which is good for leadership and leading others?
Tania Ihlenfeld: Yeah, I love this question. And I would first like to caveat by saying I don't want people to take on more workload just for the sake of it, but I do think, yeah, so don't take on more workload, but take on but certainly start grabbing more responsibility in a really sustainable way. And try and make sure that's been recognized around you as well.
And I think that's something I do say a lot about is how you advocate for [00:28:00] yourself. Because I think, especially as women, we don't do it. But even just as a junior member of a team, you often feel like nobody really understands and no one cares what I'm doing, but actually they should. So the more you can speak about the things you're doing the better.
But I think, I guess to frame that, cause I like framing things. So in terms of way, the way I see the leadership role, the enabling role is to think about four aspects, four key aspects. And one of them is and I think you can do, all of, you can contribute to all of these four aspects before you are officially in the leadership role.
And I think that's the conversation we're having here. So in terms of the first piece is, Really for any project success, there needs to be a vision in place. And I'm not talking about something that's set in the beginning and it's set in stone and it's no. It's this thing that needs to evolve and it needs to, the ownership of it can't just sit with one or two people and it can't just sit in the design team.
It needs to be much broader. So as any member of the team, you play a part in. Understanding that the [00:29:00] importance of the vision and how you advocate for that in everything you're doing, because it will streamline decisions. It will help you make those the calls as to what comes off the list of things to do when there's a huge deadline and all of this stuff.
So it's so important and every single person on the team has a role to play. But I think especially when you are wanting to take on more responsibility, if you are seen as someone advocating for the vision, which helps on so many fronts. Then that should be rewarded in my opinion, and that absolutely.
Paves the way for you stepping into a leadership role faster. So that's the first aspect is understanding the importance of a vision and how you advocate for it. The second key thing is understanding that every project has a framework and it needs to be this flexible thing. Yes, it's, it certainly has the program and the brief and the scope of work, et cetera in there, and, have ways of procurement and all these things, but it's also ways of working and your team needs to understand it.
So again, if you've got a number of members of your team at all different levels, Understanding that there's a framework in place [00:30:00] that needs to be, that needs to evolve with the project, then you are going to be benefiting the leader and you are going to become a more effective leader when you finally step into that role because you've understood this framework is so important.
And then the other side of this framework piece is understanding that there are really key accountabilities across the project. So you might be accountable for something before you're a leader. And I think that's something to embrace if that is the case, make sure you're supported, make sure it's.
The right thing to do. You might not have the right expertise, you might not have the right support, in which case you put your hand up and say, I'm happy to be responsible, but there's no way I should be accountable for that. And they're two different things. So I think again, as somebody leading before you lead, you understand that accountability exist across the project and that if you are working under someone who is accountable, Then they're going to require different things from you.
And if you can support them better, then you'll be seen as such a key team member and someone who's able to step into that role in the future as well. So that's the second piece in terms of framework and [00:31:00] accountability. The third piece is measuring what matters. Cause I'm all about not just understanding you, whether a project has exceeded at the very end. We've got to, we've gotta improve the way in which we go about delivering project and, designing and developing and all that stuff. So you need ways to understand whether you're on track at any point in the project. So again, as somebody who's thinking about a leadership role in the future or wanting to really take on more responsibility and really contribute to a project, it's really going, you know what?
I want to be in charge of tracking some of this progress on the project. And it could be, there's all different ways to do it, but that's something to really to think about. And I also, as on the flip side of that is what we, measuring things, but also being more comfortable to test and try things and fail.
And I call it failing fast. I'm not talking about the project failing obviously, but I'm talking about those things you can try. That, like that shield study or that thing, you can do this isolated piece of work for the entrance or the [00:32:00] this or the that, the things that are important and you trial and you test it and you have this and there's a real culture of it's o it's okay to fail and that requires more than the leader to, to set that up, that culture up.
So I would say, again, stepping into that role, if I'm going to encourage My team members to, to want to fail at this thing in order to improve it and to get the buy-in from the rest of the team. I think that's so key. And then the the fourth factor is how you create really effective teams and high performing teams and how you nurture them.
And anyone at any level can participate in that as well. Obviously, the leader plays such a key role in, in how teams feel appreciated, how they're performing. But as well, if you've got team members at every level who are looking out for others, who are doing well, who are advocating for others, and then looking to be advocated for themselves as well, then it builds this incredible like feedback loop if you like.
As to, the way you can improve [00:33:00] relations between teams, you can get to deadlines faster, you can pull back and do other things. So it's just a much better atmosphere to be working in if you, if your teams have built this trust and all of this. So I think it's yeah.
And then the final piece really is how you draw all the strands together and managing expectations and being more courageous. And I think, again, anyone at. Any level can help the team be more courageous and to manage expectations up, down, sideways, and across, and all of that.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Why was it Tanya? You made this podcast very easy for me. With all these juicy nuggets. I'm just sit sitting back and Making some mental notes for me. I'll be honest I went inwardly reflecting on what you were saying while you were saying it, going, oh, okay. Yes, that's true. That's true. So this is useful for me as hopefully it is useful for the audience and like a little preview of what it'll be like to work with you now while we were talking.
Sika offered some [00:34:00] views and add some commentary, which I think is cool. So Sika says that she thinks people management and both internal and external is the most sensitive and critical aspect to get a grit grip off. Particularly as people please. And for those coming into leadership role. And secondly, letting go of perfectionism and control to allow others to grow that bit, I really agree, is really important.
Kind of goes back a bit, Tanya, what you said before of not micromanaging, letting things go, trusting people can do it. What's your thoughts on what Ker has said? Do you have any comments or things you'd add?
Tania Ihlenfeld: I can completely relate to, and I think many of us can, in terms of people pleasing, especially when you're stepping into leadership roles, you feel like you feel so grateful that someone's given you this opportunity. And then you feel like you've gotta so please the client and so pleased the stakeholder and so pleased the team.
And of course you are the last person you end up pleasing by the way, and you end up working yourself into the ground. And so I do, this is what, this is where I'm coming from with being [00:35:00] more courageous cuz part of that, in fact, a lot of it. Is then saying, I'm going to serve my client, but I'm also gonna tell them where they're going off course, and I'm going to serve my stakeholders, but I'm really gonna show them a better way.
And I do think that if you take the idea of a leader being an enabler, you're showing what's possible. And part of that is not always saying yes and not always saying it's all so rosy. Yes, you need to be positive, but I think you also need to. Be clear about those moments of, okay, we're going into a really tough phase now.
We are going to get pushback from the client and the stakeholders, and this is gonna be hard and we're gonna have to make some tough decisions, and we're not always gonna enjoy the decisions we're making. But if we've got our vision in place and we know this thing we're trying to do, and we've got the support of this fast failure culture.
We've got each other's back, we under, we've built this trust, then we will get through this tough phase. And I do think that, yeah, moving away from just [00:36:00] people pleasing, cuz actually if you go into more how am I going to serve the outcome to be the best? How am I gonna serve the team to produce the best?
Journey and outcome. If you have that mindset, it's not about pleasing everyone all the time, it's actually just about that longer term view. There might be a bit of short term pain, but acknowledging and really being clear, this is gonna be a tough couple of months. But we're gonna get through it because we've put all these things in place and you can absolutely shout at us after these two months if we don't get these other things in place to make this better.
But I think there's, you can't have those conversations if you are simply aiming to look good and please, all the time. Because there will be moments where it just doesn't go your way or something comes from left of field, which you, although you've planned for something, it didn't go the way you thought.
Yeah. And I think that also plays to that second point of being a perfectionist and having a bit of control. Cuz I can totally relate to that. I think many of us can, and I think there's something that we also we get [00:37:00] trained in. InDesign in, in Architecture schools, don't we? That we keep going until somebody tells us it's good enough.
And we are our own worst enemy when it comes to being a perfectionist, but at the same time, we're seeking others to tell us everything's good. So I think again, it comes back to if as a team you've got this really strong vision and it might not be visible to others yet, but if it's visible to you and you are doing what you can to.
Really share that vision. Then eventually people will and if it's the right thing to do, by the way then eventually others will come along. So I think it's this, not necessarily, it is letting go of things, but at the same time it's holding that bigger vision and seeing things before others see it.
And just being confident that you're, you are heading in the right direction and that people will eventually like it when they see it. They just can't see it just yet. That's the issue.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Yeah. Fair enough. Thank you. Speak up for sharing and adding your views to the
Tania Ihlenfeld: [00:38:00] Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Very good. Now we have had another question that's popped in from a from a user on Twitch. My goodness, we normally don't get many users from Twitch, which says is EED enablers a business, which that gets work permits for projects and lobby politicians to green light projects.
My goodness. And I don't think that's what Eid enabler is. Tanya, maybe this is a nice segue
Tania Ihlenfeld: I love that. That's a provocation, isn't
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's a cool one.
Tania Ihlenfeld: Might as well enable the right projects to be going through.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Yeah. Maybe one day, but for now, tell us what you are focused on right now.
Tania Ihlenfeld: So I'm focused on developing and supporting leaders, like existing leaders who wanting and know that there's a better way, but also next gen leaders because I, I do believe that leading before you lead now will ab Can you imagine Stephen, we've got a situation where, Our next gen leaders are so primed and ready to be courageous, to take a stand, to do the right thing, to support [00:39:00] their teams, do amazing work for their clients and to love their job.
Again, honestly, I think that's where it's at for me. So I do think that. Our existing leaders need more help and it's hard to ask for help, and I appreciate that. But again if I can help the next gen leader, next gen leaders stepping up to say, look, I understand your leadership role and I'm prepared to step in and take some of those things from you to support you.
And if I can also help existing leaders to, to really understand how it is that they can lighten their load. And smooth out the process, shall we say, then that's, then I'm happy days. I'm doing what I need to be doing, frankly.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: I think it's great. And you've got this book here as well. Tanya, tell us about the book, because I think a book is a great way to get a lot of information out to the masses, and you probably spent a lot of time on this and you touched upon it earlier. I can see there's a quote from Sir Nick Nicholas Grimshaw, however, in your words, tell us about [00:40:00] the book.
Tania Ihlenfeld: So honestly, this started out as a means to find my voice, and what I did was understand, okay, so leadership is the thing I feel confident about, but what is it that I can take from the small scale projects that I've worked on to the large scale and draw the strands together to make leadership more effective, more effortless?
So that more people can step into the space and lead and so that when they do step in, it's just such an enjoyable process you can be guaranteed of the project outcome being a success because you've put all the right steps in place and you can guarantee that you team are gonna love being part of it and that your gen you are absolutely developing the next gen leaders in the process as well.
So this is why I'm focusing on leadership, and this is why I've. Now you, you do need to find your own leadership style. So this is a framework of tools and strategies that you can use. Yeah. And so it's, it touches on those four aspects and plus the fifth one of how you title all together. So it's written in a way, it's conversational.
It's written [00:41:00] as though I could be sitting opposite you in a coffee shop talking about some experiences. So I share my own stories. I've looked at some leaders inside and outside of the industry, and I share their stories too. So it is multiple voices in there and multiple experiences. I share successes and failures, and I know that's really, it's hard to do, but it's important to do I think it, and I've been told that it's so relatable in terms of the way I write it and the sh and the stories that I share that people are nodding as they're reading, basically. Yeah. So I think it's hopefully written in a really accessible way. But I appreciate that not everybody loves to read a book.
So there's a webinar if you can just look on my links and you can see there's this free webinar for an hour where I talk about what this framework is and how you can change some things you're doing today. And talk a lot about vision, as you can see there as well. Yeah, there's content out there.
I also run a six week course where you do 10 to 15 minutes a day on this app and you get me once a week with a [00:42:00] group. And yeah, it's been amazing fun as well. So yeah, there's lots of different resources. There'll be more to come as well. But I'm really here to develop and support leaders.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: I love it. I think I need to pick up the book as well, to be honest. So I will be looking at the book and I'll add a link to this, to the Architecture Social. Now I've got one or two little comments that have come in before you get to ask me questions. Chris says, do you advocate formal training from when architects are promoted to leadership role as many rely on learning on the job, which has his positive and negatives?
PS Tanya, you are great and everyone should read your book. You go, wow,
Tania Ihlenfeld: Oh.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: you need to put Chris. Then there. Then the info grimshaw, it's a quote. It's a quote for your website, but
Tania Ihlenfeld: take it. I'll take it. Yeah. So I do absolutely advocate cuz every, everyone at every level should want to continue to learn. I think you, you'll have this I guess there's a culture of once you've made it to a leadership position, you can stop learning. [00:43:00] Frankly actually when you look at other industries, and you, and actually I've been looking into and basically having mentors from some of the most successful people on the planet, not necessarily in our profession.
In fact, most of them aren't. But, and all of them really understand this idea of learning continuously, and they all have mentors no matter how successful they are. So I think we need to, in, in our industry, we need to shed this idea. That asking for help or having a mentor or learning is something bad actually.
It's something brilliant and it shows your curiosity. It's gonna expand your horizons, and it'll mean that it's easier for you to invite others into your world to be more diverse because you understand that actually having someone else's opinion who wouldn't otherwise have shared it or you wouldn't have otherwise thought about.
Could be a really important thing for your project or your team or a moment in time for you and your career. So I think just being open to this, the idea of being curious about learning is so important. And so this is [00:44:00] why I'm determined with leadership things to make them so accessible and easy to fit into some busy schedules.
And there's no sense in it being like this heavy textbook that no one wants to read or a course that you've got to. Move away from your team and abandon them for a couple of weeks. There's no point in that cuz I just don't think anyone would want to do it and they don't get anything out of it anyway.
So I'm determined that there are ways and means that you can continue to learn but in a way that's accessible to you and that fits your lifestyle.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Very well said. Thanks Chris for sharing. I appreciate it. And Tanya, that is a good response. Mariella says, great insight. Thank you. Now, Tanya, it's your term to flip the script and ask me any questions that you have, which are unplanned and unscripted. Go for it. Do you have
Tania Ihlenfeld: I love it. I'd love to know your, because you are seeing where people come to you, they wanna change parts of their career or they wanna progress or they want to progress cause they haven't been promoted and they wanna [00:45:00] move into these leadership positions. What is the typical conversations they're having with you about the things they're struggling with or the things they think, what am should, am I, should I be asking for this?
That kind of thing.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Yes. Interesting. So in terms of specifically recruitment, so usually people come to a recruitment consultant when the conversation hasn't, has gone too far or maybe I should say hasn't began step or the person has decided that they want to leave us. Usually conversations will be about responsibility.
And salary and location's a big thing when you're looking, but when I go into the crux of why people are looking, it's very common that they feel that there's no way they can grow further. Or they've tried to have a conversation with management and they've been glossed over now. You only hear on one side of the co of the [00:46:00] coin.
However to answer your question, it is a big part of why people leave and what I would say as a leader, I think that. Of course it's stressful. Of course they're running with the ball, but when you lose these people, when they're gone. And it's very expensive to replace someone. That can just make it run in a difficult project even worse.
Tanya, you mentioned earlier you had these big projects with lots and lots of people, and now without being specifics, I'm sure if you had a team of 20 and two or three decided that they would leave mid-project, that is a. Big disruption. So I do think it's good to keep the conversations going, and I do think that if there is a chance for a team leader to keep their employees, they should equally, the thing I always like to remind people who are job seeking is before you even go out, In the wild.
Are you sure you don't want to have that final conversation with your current team leader because maybe they are just too busy and maybe if you [00:47:00] express how important it's getting to you, maybe they could have that conversation. At the same time though, if you've done that and nothing's happened, then you do have to, in my opinion, As the person working on the team have the ugly conversation with yourself of do I accept that I've brought stuff up and nothing's got done and stay here or do I leave?
However, if you haven't brought up that conversation, especially doing a busy project, then. I think usually the team leader is just, as you said earlier, you said it perfectly. There's a big picture. They're running with a ball. They will get around to you, but they forget. And by bringing how important it is, you save that whole process.
And there's nothing worse than going all the way down the process. In the recruitment period where you've accepted the job, you're gonna go and then you give you a notice and your current team leader is like, what the heck are you doing? You have to stay. We'll give you the more money, we'll give you this and that.
And then you are in a really [00:48:00] tricky position of do I still go or do I stay? And usually in my experience, when you stay at a company, Within three to six months. Those things don't change if they've been promised. So you have to get them because if things are coming then you know they don't. But, so that's a roundabout answer, but what I'm trying to say to summarize it is always have a conversation with your team leader, but express how important it is.
I know it's difficult, but that is better. Than spending a lot of energy looking for a job going down the process. Only then to be in a tricky scenario where you, maybe you stay, maybe you go, what do you think, Tanya? Does that make sense
Tania Ihlenfeld: I think it does, and again, this comes back to this point of advocating for yourself, which I know can be so hard. And also if you just wait for the formal review. You process that I'm sure many practices and all practices should have, but if you just wait for those moments, sometimes the buildup to those [00:49:00] reviews can be just
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: yeah.
Tania Ihlenfeld: Yeah, because oftentimes it should have happened at six months it didn't happen, and suddenly now it's 12 months and you've logged you backed up all this stuff you wanted to say. Now it's 12 months worth of stuff you wanna get out and it's probably not gonna come out in the right way because you've b it's been building up.
And I know it's hard to do, but if you can find those moments to have those conversations about, oh, I really like this today, or That was a mean, I'm really proud I did that. What did you think? And it can just be like a 32nd thing or a one, but if you have a few of those, you'll build confidence to have more of them.
And it just takes the edge off the reviews, cuz the reviews can just be, it can just be too much pressure. But just another point that this came up in conversation. With an Architectural practice and it, there was this mur, there was this feeling that it's a large practice. Is there a way that anyone coming in at any level can just see the pa, the different paths they can take?
Is there any way that could be more visible so that there isn't this, Tension that builds up so [00:50:00] that yes, you can't map out every career in every practice. You can't like it, it's gonna look like some weird spider diagram, but at the same time, what could be done? What could practices do to make career paths more transparent? I'd love to know what you think about that.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: It is hard. I go through salary bracket, salary, Leary abandons with companies Pathways. I think the more you can put it out there, the better. I don't think a lot of companies do it. I understand because they can be quite big. There's a lot of policies, but the more and more transparent the things are on the intranet, the better.
So for a leader, I would encourage it. So in, in my company, Not Architecture related cause we're not designing projects. However, I've got everything quite visible on what people need to achieve to get promoted, really. So it's all there on the intranet. It says if you bring in this much work and you have these core values, you are.
Eligible for promotion, full stop. And [00:51:00] therefore, in line with it, the salaries are all in the open. So bizarrely here, everyone talks about money. Everyone knows what salary they, they're on, and it's quite liberating. But what I think happens in Architecture practices is that. There's a salary bracket, but someone's been there 10 years, they're still on the same thing.
And then someone joins on and you've got different factors and it can get very blurry. I think the more out there is, the better it is. And you touched upon earlier reviews. I think that sometimes people ask for money or without necessarily justifying that extra worth. And I always say to try to bring it back to responsibilities with.
With remuneration. So just asking for 5,000 pound more, we've given your team leader nothing else for it. That's a, that's more difficult conversation. However, if you said, I will be the BIM Coordinator on the team and I will be responsible for this documentation and this and that, [00:52:00] and in line with that, can we look at increasing my salary more closer to a BIM Coordinator in London?
I think you're more likely going to help that. Project manager and team leader and then give you the salary increase. And so a lot of my time, especially during career coaching, it's all about this. But Tanya, what do you think? Does that make sense? My logic?
Tania Ihlenfeld: does. It does. And I also think you can flip it and say, if you don't quite know what it is you need to do to earn more and to. Gain those responsibilities. If you can just have that conversation, like what are the top three to five things that I need to be doing that I will put my energy into doing.
It doesn't mean it's extra. It just means I'm diverting my energy into these things because I know it's gonna be good for the practice, for the project, for the team. And my own career. And I'm okay with saying all of that because it's important. Everyone has like this idea that they are valuable and that they're making a contribution and that there's a little bit of selfishness in there as well.
Absolutely. But it needs to be [00:53:00] that there's Yeah, this what is valuable? And understand it from both sides. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: Excellent. Okay, I think on that note, we're fastly approaching the hour mark and we've covered a lot. So I'm going to say that if anyone else has a question, then they can probably get in touch with you. So for, I did bring in your website earlier and then we get it up again. However, for our audio listeners as well, can you tell us exactly where they can find you, Tanya, on the wide web.
Tania Ihlenfeld: So you can follow me on LinkedIn Tanya Einfeld. I'm also on Instagram. You can follow my company, eat Enablers. That's e d e enablers. And yeah I'm open to conversations and coffee chats or whatever. I'm here to support. Yeah.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: That's very good of you. Thank you Tanya, for being here and stay on the stage while I close this down. But thank you in the audience for joining us and participating. It is always cool when I've got some questions as well. It gives me a moment to have [00:54:00] a little bit of water, but also I do like it when it gets a bit more interactive.
I have got some more content coming up in the next few weeks, but if you enjoyed this one, Do share it, do get in contact with Tanya and all that cool stuff. But thank you so much. I'll let you go back to work, but hopefully this has been useful for any of you aspiring leaders. I really do appreciate it and we hope we got another thank you before we're
Tania Ihlenfeld: Oh, and thank you for having me, Steven. Thank you.
00;00;00_Stephen Drew: no problem.
Thank you, Tanya. Stay on the stage while I end the live stream now. But take care everyone and see you soon. Take care. Bye-bye.