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Now or Never: Long-Term Care Strategy is a podcast for all those seeking answers and solutions in the long-term care space. Too often we don’t fully understand the necessity of care until it’s too late. This podcast is designed to create solutions, start conversations and bring awareness to the industry that will inevitably impact all Americans.
Carleigh Berryman: It is highly
immersive by virtue of it being,
you know, right on your eyes. It
is incredibly immersive. And
what's really interesting about
the brain, which I learned as a
student sort of led to this idea
was that the brain really just
believes what it sees, put it in
front of the ocean and you
convince it, you stay there for
enough time, you know, 15 or 30
minutes, you can sort of
convince your brain that it's
really at the beach.
Caroline Moore: Welcome to Now
or Never Long-Term Care Strategy
with Kosta Yepifantsev a podcast
for all those seeking answers
and solutions in the long term
care space. This podcast is
designed to create resources,
start conversations and bring
awareness to the industry that
will inevitably impact all
Americans. Here's your host
Kosta Yepifantsev:
Kosta Yepifantsev: Hey, y'all,
this is Kosta and today, I'm
here with my guest, Carleigh
Berryman, international Virtual
Reality healthcare expert, and
founder and CEO of Viva Vida,
delivering virtual reality to
over 10,000 seniors and hundreds
of retirement and memory care
communities across the country.
In 2022, Carly joined the board
of directors of the
International virtual reality
and Healthcare Association, as
she continues advocating for
retirement communities to
rethink senior wellbeing through
virtual reality technology. So,
Carly, since most of us are new
to virtual reality, and if
you're like me, don't fully
understand it yet. I want to
start with the basics. Walk us
through what kind of
technologies are being used and
how it all works?
Carleigh Berryman: Absolutely.
So surprisingly, virtual virtual
reality has been around for
several decades, actually, it's
been used in different
industries. Yes, most people
don't know that. But the first
VR headset was made in the 80s
or early 90s. Today, of course,
they've come a long way. And now
the most common VR headset that
you would find at a Best Buy or
with a like would be a
standalone VR headset, meaning
it doesn't plug into computers
or use a cell phone. Instead,
most VR headsets you'll find
actually have their own CPU,
their own computer. And
basically this, this small
computer sort of rests on your
face, and projects through
screens made for your eyes, a
virtual environment. So you
could really be talking about
any sort of virtual environment,
whether it's a video of a
location, like your childhood
home, or Paris, France, or it
might be something like a game
or an interactive exercise
workout, there are really many
things you can do in VR.
Kosta Yepifantsev: That's
amazing. And so let's talk about
how VR integrates into the
senior care industry. And
obviously, we can't do that
without talking about Viva vida,
your company. But I want to know
more about how you came into the
senior care industry, and how
your company has evolved. But
before you answer that, I want
to know when you first thought
of this idea to incorporate
virtual reality as a resource
for seniors. Oh, wow.
Carleigh Berryman: Initially, I
believe the idea originated in
2017. But I didn't actually
launch the business until 2019.
Okay, I'm still a student,
actually, at that time in 2017.
And was right in the middle of
my college degree. So I was
working on that, and a couple
other business ideas. And one
really succeeded one when really
was became real in over the next
couple of years.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Why virtual
reality? But more importantly,
why virtual reality for seniors?
Carleigh Berryman: Yeah,
absolutely. So one thing, one
more thing about virtual reality
is that, that digital, that
virtual environment that I
mentioned, it is highly
immersive by virtue of it being,
you know, right on your eyes.
And that's all that you can see.
It is incredibly immersive. And
what's really interesting about
the brain, which I learned as a
student, and sort of led to this
idea was that the brain really
just believes what it sees. So
you put it in front of the
ocean, and you convince it, you
stay there for enough time, you
know, 15 or 30 minutes, you can
sort of convince your brain that
it's really at the beach, and so
it's going to begin relaxing and
unwinding as if you were there.
Fall in the headset. So what led
us to bring it to seniors was
actually my own experience with
my grandmother. Okay, Linda,
Granny to me, and she had been
living alone for a few years at
that point. It was getting
harder for her to get out and
just find meaning in her
everyday life. Sure. And at one
point she said to me and my
family she said, You know, I've
sometimes some days I wake up
and I just kind of lay there and
I look at the ceiling and I
wonder, you know, should I even
bother getting up? Should I go
back to bed? I don't really have
anything going on. And so that
was really a just a shocking
moment of wow, my my grandmother
feels like she has no reason to
get out of bed in the morning.
Yeah, so yeah, for sure. Yeah, I
knew enough about VR at that
time to kind of see the
beginning of an opportunity of
okay, well, granny used to love
traveling. She she still likes
to when she can, but it's
difficult. What if we bring the
world to her, and it's now much
more possible with how advanced
the technology is getting.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And so when I
think about virtual reality,
being in the long term care
space, I see somebody who wants
a sense of community in and I'm
going to, quote air quote this
like Metaverse, right? So we
already see people that are
finding relationships,
meaningful relationships,
friendships, learning new skills
in the metaverse. And so is that
correct? Did that have any
bearing on on developing this
technology to see if maybe you
could find your own sense of
community through virtual
reality for seniors?
Carleigh Berryman: That's
interesting. Well, actually, the
metaverse as a term, it really
wasn't a term back in in 2019,
when we got started, right? Yes.
So there are many opportunities
that the metaverse opens. And,
you know, for seniors,
specifically, the opportunity to
meet with each other with like
minded people in the same sort
of stage in life is a really
interesting application to have
a virtual world just for that
purpose. It is something that's
really exciting. Now, there are
some realistic concerns that are
present now that are kind of in
the way of making that a
reality, if you'll excuse the
pun, but that's, that's
definitely on its way,
Kosta Yepifantsev: you know,
somebody is considering, say,
for example, to move to like a
retirement community or assisted
living facility, but they want
to remain in their own home. But
they battled this type of
depression. And you know, you
know, being in this industry,
how depression can affect
somebody's somebody's overall
health and well being. And so if
you can offer this type of
service to keep them aging in
place, it will probably save the
family members a lot of money,
but also it may improve their
quality of life. And I'd like to
talk to you about that. Do you
come into contact with clients
or facilities? What's your
general experience of working
with people in this industry in
trying to give them this this
virtual reality immersion?
Carleigh Berryman: Yes, well,
you speak of, you know, the need
of loneliness and the need of
connection as one of the reasons
that people might move into
community. And that's absolutely
true. That's the case for my own
grandmother a few years into
this, you know, just not too
long ago, but a few years into
PBT, she did decide to move into
a senior living community. And
it was, you know, that was
pretty much reason number one
for her. But like you said, you
know, some people can't afford
that, or really, you know, are
resistant to the idea which I
completely understand and will
prefer to age in place. And so
this is sort of a bridge to
provide that that community,
even if you're at home, well, so
how Viva Vita typically works
with communities, or with
seniors in general is we do work
through the communities. Okay,
so currently, we only offer our
amenities, to other retirement
communities, and businesses. And
they will typically purchase a
fleet of VR headsets and have a
good sized amenity so that they
can do group sessions and get
that community aspect. We've
been speaking about how people
take tours together and feel
like they're there together and
then come back and discuss it
and share memories. And so
that's the most popular use
case, we also see caregivers
taking the VR headsets, one on
one for individuals who, who
maybe can't leave the rooms or
who are resistant to leaving the
rooms.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Yeah. And so
just so that the audience
understands what you're
describing, they're sitting like
in a room, similar to how
nursing facilities or assisted
living facilities have like big
gathering rooms where they play
like bingo, right? And so with
virtual reality in these
headsets, they can go like on
tour and visit Rome, you know,
or they could even do something
as simple as going to New York
City or Washington DC like
places they've probably already
been and can reminisce about
those times. I think that's so
that's just so freakin cool,
man, like, like just so cool
that we have an opportunity to
sort of solve one of the biggest
barriers for people that are
aging and to uplift their
overall mood and their well
being which in turn will make
them healthier. are more
optimistic individuals, you know
what I'm saying? Yeah. What do
you believe is like the ideal
candidate, like is there a
specific age range or cognition
level or mobility? For the
people that use your technology?
Carleigh Berryman: Well as per
Viva betta, our largest
demographic is assisted living.
And those residents who don't
have as much independence can't
just get in their car and drive
wherever, do require some
assistance, but we do serve the
spectrum of you know, even those
an independent living who are
able to kind of navigate the
world as they please. And those
in memory care who are living
with dementia or Alzheimer's.
What we have found, though, is
it is important to have a
tailored approach for each user
group that you're working with.
And different levels of content,
you know, for example, people
independent living, they look
for experiences that that mirror
the life that they are currently
leading, or that they just lead.
So for example, we have people
who, like flying in an F 16.
plane and who have requested
skydiving and skiing, active
experiences. Yeah. And there's
definitely some people in the
middle that would love those
things. But if you put someone
to memory care, in an airplane
or skydiving, God forbid,
they're really going to think
that they are flying through the
air or that they're underwater
with the fish. And so that's
going to be upsetting to someone
that, you know, can't breathe
underwater or doesn't want to
suddenly be up in the air. So
it's those kinds of
considerations that have to be
taken into account.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So people
that are say, for example, like
in a wheelchair, that can't you
know, because when I think VR
headset, I think like, you know,
bouncing around and you've got
like the lightsaber game and all
these other things on Oculus
that you can play, but like
people with mobility issues like
can they still participate in
going on tours and playing
games? How does that work? If
they are, you know, bound to a
chair or something like that?
Carleigh Berryman: Definitely.
And that's a great question. So
with Viva betta, we've made the
experience specific, or we've
we've kind of tailored it so
that it can reach the widest
audience possible, okay. And so
for that reason, most of our
experiences are more passive and
more of a tour where, whether
you're in memory care, you're in
independent living, you can sit
back and relax and enjoy it. And
so we do recommend that all of
our users stay seated. So
everyone is able to participate
in that way, we do find that
there's a small participant,
small percentage, rather, of
users who, you know, maybe about
5%, who will feel nauseous or
dizzy or just don't take very
well to VR. So that's really
what we look out for more than
anything.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Okay,
interesting. And so I want to
talk about your starter kits and
kind of what is in them. But I
am curious. So have you ever
thought about going direct to
consumer instead of selling to
facilities?
Carleigh Berryman: Yes. And
it's, it's something that we
really would like to do and hope
to do soon? Yeah, we do hear
from individuals at home,
whether it's the senior
themselves or someone looking to
purchase it for their spouse or
grandparent, we hear from those
folks almost daily. So we're
really hoping to move into that
space.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Yeah. And
because like I was saying
earlier, you know, you can
actually achieve aging in place.
I mean, think about it like
this, okay, and I mean, we're
gonna go off on a rabbit hole,
but it'll be a good one, if you
have a family member, who is,
you know, 7080 years old, that
may have a physical disability
that may have maybe they're
recovering from a stroke, right.
And so, they have like an
unsteady gait, they may be at
risk of falling. At the end of
the day, most people who are
elderly, from my personal
experience, want more quality
time with their family. Okay,
and so there are things like
FaceTime. And there are those
types of experiences where you
can have interaction face to
face interaction with somebody
in real time. But imagine,
right, if you could incorporate
those holidays, that, you know,
they could immerse themselves
through the VR headset, or even
if they could, you know, like, I
know, this is technology for the
future, but since we're talking
about it, they could follow this
individual into their like daily
lives, you know, kind of like,
you know, you take your, you
take your mom, you know, or your
dad with you to, you know, run
errands or whatever it is so
that they have some time outside
of the home. Imagine if you
could do that virtually. And if
you can imagine how much more
often you could do that and
maintain those relationships on
both sides.
Carleigh Berryman: Absolutely.
Yes. Yeah. And there are a few
really interest seeing not just
super in the future technology
and the things that we're
considering for the time and in
for tomorrow. But yeah, some
examples would be having family
members send in their own
videos, whether they're 2d or or
360. And putting them in the VR
headsets for the residents in
the community. So a little bit
delayed there. But also another
one is, is having the family
members be able to join them in
the VR experience so that
they're doing it together. And
then finally, a possibility.
specific app, we're evaluating
where the grandmother, the
grandfather of the parent can
just put on a VR headset, and
instantly be in the living room,
for example, with the family.
Oh, great having a live 360
camera there. So they get turned
it on whenever. And it's like,
she's taking a seat at the
table. Yeah,
Kosta Yepifantsev: having
dinner. Right. Like that is?
That's next level, Carly. I love
that.
Carleigh Berryman: It's really
cool. I get really excited too.
Yeah.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So tell me
about your starter kits, like
what's in it. Walk through like
a normal client experience when
they do purchase a starter kit.
And then also, I want to know,
what is the upkeep of the system
as well? Yes, absolutely.
Carleigh Berryman: So our
starter kit includes a VR
headset, a tablet, which can be
used as a remote control. And
we've built this with special
software so that anyone even if
they've never heard, let alone
seen VR before, they can pick up
the tablet, which is a familiar
Samsung device, and they get
start content for their
residents. So it makes it very
easy to get started. And to keep
the programming going nice. All
about software's already pre
downloaded, as well as a starter
library of content. So they've
got several hours of different
travel, relaxation and
educational videos to peruse
through, you're gonna get it all
downloaded. So they don't have
to fuss with any of that, when
it arrives, they don't actually
even have to connect to Wi Fi to
begin that with their menu, why
we've eliminated the need for Wi
Fi. So the tablet and the
headset can communicate with
each other. Without that, I
found that that's really
important because most of these
communities, if they do have Wi
Fi, it's it's not very strong.
So that's that's been a key
part. But it community, they'll
typically purchase anywhere from
five to 10 headsets, on average
of these, these kids with the
tablet and the headset included.
We have found we're able to work
with more communities in all
sorts of areas and different
circumstances in the US by
removing certain barriers that
get in the way. For example, we
don't require minimum order
quantities. So they can start
with just one kit, they want to
try it and see what goes yeah,
they don't have to lock into any
sort of subscription, where
they're paying monthly you're
paying ongoing, which we find
keeps a lot of people kind of
from taking that leap into VR.
And then finally, we offer a
rent to own plans. So they can
purchase their VR headset over
the course of 12 months. And we
don't charge anything extra for
that. But it's just so that we
can really get into as many
hands as possible.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And so
really, the only upkeep that I'm
hearing you say is just you
know, doing the updates for the
for the software. You know,
there's nothing like tangible
you know, obviously, at some
point, you may have to replace
the technology, you know, after
the course of you know, five
years just like anything do you
have and I don't know if you can
share this. But do you have like
a range of how much these kits
cost so that you know and maybe
even what you're planning on
selling them to straight to
Consumer Direct to consumer type
of model.
Carleigh Berryman: I wish we
could share something like that
with our direct consumer, but
that is a ways in the future.
With senior communities, what I
can say is that we are able to
get that price as low as $75 a
month. Oh, I mentioned you know,
breaking that down over a year.
So that gives you an idea of our
pricing. We're really trying to
fit in the average community's
monthly activity budget.
Kosta Yepifantsev: I love that.
So you and I talking about this
like we can envision and picture
virtual reality but there are a
lot of people who, number one
don't own an Oculus headset, you
know, and I say Oculus because
it's the most popular brand and
there's other brands for virtual
reality. There are people that
don't really even understand the
concept of virtual reality. You
know, we are still in like the
2010 Nintendo Wii stage. You
know, with the tennis, you know,
everybody's so excited about
that tennis game, and they're
like, I gotta get away. So,
Carleigh Berryman: yes, that's
great, too.
Kosta Yepifantsev: But like, how
do you train these communities?
Like, what is your training
process look like? And also, you
know, is virtual reality easy to
understand and teach someone in
their elder years? Yeah, so
Carleigh Berryman: a lot to say
on that last question about it,
that the ease of teaching and
the enthusiasm for teaching,
okay. But let me grab a headset
here and the sake of
demonstration. So I love this
for to help conceptualize that
this is our VR headset. And
mentioned that computer is here
in the front, there's actually a
battery pack in the back, which
is unique to these headsets
makes it a little bit more
comfortable. So it's different
from what you might find with an
Oculus. But yeah, you would just
put this on. And when it's
turned on, that digital
environments displayed. So when
I look left and right, I can't
see the my office, instead, see
that that beach? Or that town,
whatever it might be, and feel
feel very immersed in that way?
Yes.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And how do
seniors respond to that, when
you when they when they put it
on? Is it? Is it difficult for
them to understand how to
operate it, you know, with the
tablet with the headsets? Have
you had an interaction there?
Carleigh Berryman: Absolutely.
Yeah. So actually, before we we
got started formally, we spent
six months or a little bit more
in communities, putting
different headsets on different
folks trying out different
content and seeing what worked
best and what didn't work. And
if you're talking about the
typical independent living or
our assisted living resident,
it's pretty easy to explain what
it is, it's definitely easier
once they see it. So I will, I
would try to do some
explanation. Back in those days,
and then I would just have them
see for themselves. And I
absolutely love the reactions,
it never gets old to see someone
put on VR, especially for the
first time. Yeah, and fly it
out. And what I found was that
the residents, they felt more
connected to the world around
them through what they were
seeing in in the headset, but
also just by virtue of getting
hip to a new technology and
using the same thing that their
grandchildren use. So they feel
sort of modern in that way. And
yeah, and people would ask me,
you know, could Could you teach
me more of the controls, I want
to know how to use more of this
and be more in control. So a lot
of enthusiasm there.
Kosta Yepifantsev: I like that.
And so let me go on the other
end of the spectrum. So
obviously, there's so many
people that are excited about
it. But do you ever encounter
people who are scared of
bringing this type of technology
into their care process, whether
it's families, or patients?
Carleigh Berryman: Scared not so
much. One time in 2019. Back
again, in the early days, I was
attempting to persuade a
resident to try it with me. And
she was I think she was in her
late 90s. But she was convinced
that she had one of those as a
kid, and she was bored of it had
seen it before, like didn't need
to even take a peek. So we know
that that's fine. Sure. Yeah.
And maybe she's thinking about a
ViewMaster, or one of those the
little
Kosta Yepifantsev: gaps with
where you switch the, like the
head, the film on it, and you
just switch it, you know, one
after another. Yeah,
Carleigh Berryman: exactly. Yes.
And I would sometimes use that
as a, an explanation or a way to
kind of segue into VR, you know,
those as a kid? Well, this is
sort of like that, but to the
next level with videos, so. But,
you know, there have been some
healthy concerns around
especially around sanitation of
the VR headsets, and possibly
some some concerns around memory
care, you know, are we going to
put them underwater? Are we
going to put them in this guy
and making sure of those things?
But generally, the concerns are
more around realistic barriers,
like budgeting things like
Right,
Kosta Yepifantsev: right. Where
do you think that Viva Vida is
going to go in the next five to
10 years? Where would you like
to see it go?
Carleigh Berryman: Yes. So
first, we're expanding to
adjacent markets, which we've
identified as basically anyone
who is trapped somewhere that
they don't want to be who feels
trapped as many of the seniors
say that they do. So we've heard
a lot of requests from
communities or companies I
should say, that include
dialysis, oncology
rehabilitation, so any of those
situations where it's
uncomfortable or unpleasant, we
can bring virtual reality in To
benefit, we we'd like to reach
seniors at home. They also, you
know, say that they feel
trapped. And there's so many
opportunities as you and I have
discussed to reach those
individuals. So that's kind of
in the next five to 1010 years
where we want to be as far as
the market. But our ultimate
goal is to improve quality of
life for individuals everywhere,
and to change the way that that
we speak and think about aging
in our society.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Yeah.
Wouldn't it be great if you guys
developed like your own world in
the metaverse? And, you know,
you could actually have like a
meeting place? You know, like, I
don't know, I don't really do a
lot of social media, but like,
you know, like the Hangout room
in the metaverse where people
that are elderly, or even people
from a specific demographic
that, you know, were maybe born
in the, you know, 50s to 60s,
and that are from a certain
region of the United States, and
they have certain interests and
likes, you know, and you can
have this kind of built out
where people can, you know, age
in place. And I say that,
because I'm very passionate
about aging in place. They would
have I, in my opinion, I think
less anxiety about living on
their own. And they have more of
a support system. I mean, you
got to think about it like this.
Seniors, one of their biggest
barriers to being able to live
on their own aside from their
disability is transportation.
And obviously, the the finances
of being able to go out into the
community because they're on a
very limited budget. Virtual
reality can supplant that, you
know, obviously, not entirely,
but it could supplant a large
portion of it. What do you see
as like, your pie in the sky,
like the one thing that you wish
that you could do with your
company to improve people's
lives?
Carleigh Berryman: Well, that is
a that's a big question. But
speaking about all this at this
Metaverse, I mean, hopefully,
that's where you and I will be
living when we are seniors. Not
you know, I'm but we'll be
enjoying that sort of world
where we can go to a virtual
world where it's it's 1950s
themed, and their old cars and
people dressed in the in the
clothing. Or we can go to the
90s and see a concert that we
might have attended, you know,
something like that, and hop
around from these virtual
worlds. And so I think that
that's where we're, where we're
headed. And we'll see more
things developing in the
metaverse. There are still some
security concerns and questions
around that. And also just, you
know, some some real barriers
and limitations in the way of
seniors adopting something like
that. But just a note, I'm not
sure where this fits. But Alko
is a is an app that was created
by AARP, actually, Oh, wow. It's
not quite full social VR where
anyone could just jump in it.
But you can, you can find it on
the Oculus Store. And doesn't
matter who you are. You can you
can try it. Yeah. And there are
many different activities to do
there. You can join with your
your senior your loved one. And
so that's kind of an early
version of what I think we'll
see more and more. It's our
Kosta Yepifantsev: MySpace.
Yeah. I love it. I love it.
Well, Carly, listen, this has
been great. And I really
appreciate everything that
you're doing. From the virtual
reality perspective, just from
being someone that's pretty
young. When I started in this
industry, I was in my I was 23.
I understand what it's like
working with everybody who's you
know, their 50s and 40s. And
then also working with the
population of individuals who
are your, your elders, you know.
So the fact that you're willing
to do this, and you're willing
to be innovative, and you're
willing to break down barriers,
and you're doing things that
people aren't thinking about, at
least not to scale. And so, you
should be, you should really be
proud of yourself. I kinda, I
can only see that the future is
going to be bright. So
Carleigh Berryman: well, that's
kind of you to say, thank you.
Kosta Yepifantsev: We always
like to end the show with a call
to action. What's your best
advice for someone entering the
long term care industry as a
patient, a caregiver, or an
industry professional?
Carleigh Berryman: Interesting,
a patient caregiver, industry
professional, and this is an
order or an answer.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Well, you can
you can answer it for all three.
Carleigh Berryman: Yeah, okay.
Well, a couple of things come to
mind. For a new caregiver,
especially a family member, I'm
sure that it can be
overwhelming. If not Been in
those shoes actually myself, but
I've, I've witnessed it from
others and definitely
overwhelming but you're
definitely not alone and 1000s
of you know millions of people
have been in your shoes before.
And there are plenty there are
the multitude of resources
available from local groups and
meetups to national resource
databases, where you can learn
you know, what resource was
available to you what tips and
tricks have worked for other
people and, and kind of work to
create this this normal for you.
And for residents just looking
at my own grandmother's
experience, it's almost in the
same vein of, of when you move
in somewhere, or you move to a
new location, get a good lay of
the land, especially on what
resources again are available to
you what activities they might
have, so that you can be taking
full advantage, getting
everything that you're paying
for. And if you feel that you're
not, you know, try to stand up
for yourself, where you can and
respectable ways so that you can
get your way. And again, just
just speaking from what I've
witnessed in my life.
Caroline Moore: Thank you for
joining us on this episode of
now our never Long Term Care
strategy with Kosta Yep.
Alphonsus if you enjoyed
listening and you want to hear
more, make sure you subscribe on
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Leave us a review or better yet,
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friend. Now our never Long Term
Care strategy with Costa Yep.
Alphonsus is a costa Yep.
offensive production. Today's
episode was written and produced
by Morgan Franklin production
assistants by Mike Franklin.
Want to find out more about
Costa visit us at Costa Yep.
offensive.com