Ep. 90: The Rolls Royce of Rifle Scopes

ATI set out to make the absolute best rifle scopes in the world and pulled out all the stops with their Tangent Theta line.  

Travis Bader chats with ATI’s VP of Sales about their company culture, passion for perfection and what it takes to make top shelf optics used the world over.  

ATI is the distributor of other fine products including Elcan, SAI Optics, Tenebraex and Xoptec. 

    https://armament.com/ https://www.facebook.com/ArmamentTechnology/ https://www.instagram.com/armament_tech/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfugQLoz1jIMR46BpEcjGxQ https://twitter.com/armament_tech https://www.linkedin.com/company/armament-technology-incorporated/

 

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I'm sitting down with Trevor Public
over the Vice President of Sales for

Armament Technology Incorporated.

They make, according to one very
prominent optical physicist, the best

rifle glass in the world, and they're
located here in Halifax, Canada.

Trevor, welcome to the Silvercore Podcast.

Pleasure

to be

here.

So of course, that prominent
optical physicist, that'd

be, uh, Ilia, Ilia Kashkin.

Yes.

And he is an individual who does not
mince his words, will tell you what

he thinks, whether you like it or not.

And when I was exploring different
optics with him and talking about

different glass that they have
out there, he says, you know what?

It goes to you guys, you Canadians,
best glass quantifiably in the world at.

And that's gonna be
your tangent theta line.

That's correct.

Yep.

So that really peaked my curiosity and
uh, I wanted to learn more about ATI and

Tangent Theta about what you guys do.

And it's actually a pretty fascinating
story and, uh, you've got some

interesting stories yourself.

And I kind of broke a golden rule that
I usually have, which is don't talk

to the person really ahead of time.

, don't talk to the person ahead of time.

And because when you get into the
podcast and you want to talk and

you want to ask questions, you
want it to be natural and something

that you don't know the answers to.

So there's a whole bunch of things
that I've been kind of holding in

the back of my head, although we
have spent in the last couple days

together and I got a good tour of
the factory and, and what you guys.

But, um, why don't I throw it over to
you a little bit and, um, you can tell

me a little bit about the history of ati.

Sure.

Um, I'll be happy to, honored to be here.

Thank you.

Um, really appreciate you jumping on
a plane and flying all the way to.

You know, little old Halifax Nova Scotia
to, to see us and honestly, my pleasure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we are a little
strange for the Maritimes.

Um, we're unique probably in Canada
and most places of the world, and we

do have a pretty unique story in it.

I, I, I think it's a pretty good story.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, so Armament technology, uh, was
founded in 1988 by Andrew Weber and Andrew

Weber is still the single owner of the
company, um, since retired from his day

to day kind of positions and maintains
our, uh, executive consultant position.

So he gets to come in when he is not
out enjoying life fishing, hunting, and

kinda, you know, metal in our business
when, uh, when he is a metal there.

But it's a good meddling, so, yes.

Um, it's nice to have him around.

Um, so Andy back in 1988 was
working out of his basement.

Making sniper rifles, um, for
the police and the military.

So he was modifying a 700, um, platform.

Sorry, Remington.

Remington, yes, that's the word.

And uh, that got complicated.

We, he at the time, was
selling to Australia.

There was some contracts in the United
States, um, Boston Police Department,

several Canadian contracts, and it became
very hard to convince a purchasing officer

why his Remington 700, which was $5,000,
was better than a $800 outta the box.

Right?

700 even though his was far superior.

Right.

Uh, we, that just kind of changed
one day on the range, um, in Knot.

Um, cuz Andy was a competitive
shooter, has been all of his

life, and had a relationship with
Raytheon Elkin Elkin at the time.

Ernest Lights.

Corporation.

Yeah.

And they made the elk can C 79.

Right.

So for all of us Canadians,
it's a very iconic scope.

It's on every single rifle that
the Canadian military carries.

Um, it's either the big black
or the big green thing on the

top of the, on the C7 or the c8.

And um, back in that time
it was about 90, 91, 92.

There was a few issues with the C
79 and it wasn't retaining zero.

Andy being the machinist and the, and the
mind that he was, had figured out a fix

for that on his own because he was having
problems but was comp, uh, competing in

service rifle stuff, and was at the range.

And he was beating all of the
military guys in the competition.

And there was a group of course
shooters that would travel from here

and go up to Ontario and, and compete.

One day, one of the commanders come up and
said, why is it that your group of guys

using the same equipment that my guys are
using and you're beating us consistently?

Right?

And Andy's like, well, it's because
yours is not the same as mine.

And I found a, you know, a zero retention
issue and I found a way to fix it.

And at that time, the guy
said, well, can you fix ours?

And Andy's like, ah, yeah, absolutely

fix it.

.
So that's really when our armament that
you are in today kind of kicked off.

It was the, the maintenance and repair
and support for every single elk can

scope that the Canadian military had.

So that amassed to about 80,000 scopes,
every single one of them, uh, over

the course of their, now still current
lifespan has come through this office

in some cases, two or three times.

So we've maintained that repair,
support, refu, uh, refurbishment

for the military for the last.

15 years and still today.

That's awesome.

We still do that today.

So it's a, it's been a
core part of our business.

Um, we've obviously evolved from that into
multiple other, uh, divisions and brands.

Uh, the, the story kind of started
first with us representing Acan

outside of the C 70 high scopes
to a commercial market, right?

So the Specter Dr.

Um, the one to four, the one and a half
to six, we were, and we still are the

master distributor for Alcan, Raytheon.

And that meant we handled the commercial
business in Canada at the beginning, and

then we started to evolve that into the
United States and now kind of globally.

So we are active in about 52
different countries around the world.

Um, not just for Alcan, but for
all of the products that we do.

Um, we.

That really was the beginning of
something different from the C 79 s

that we did that that supported that
contract was still running strong.

then, uh, premier Radicals was a
company out of Virginia, right?

Yeah.

And they did long range sniper telescopes.

We were a distributor for
Premier, so we would buy scopes.

Bring them in, resell them
to our distribution network.

Took the risk on the inventory.

Right.

Which is a familiar theme moving forward.

Uh, as many people may know, if you're
familiar with the long range shooting

community, premier had some troubles.

They went out of business
and they weren't solvent.

And basically there was several
years where nothing happened and

Andy wanted to do something different
because he was a competitive shooter.

He's won medals all around the world.

Um, he's very accomplished.

He couldn't find what he was looking
for in the market at that point in time.

Hmm.

So he said, you know what,
I can do something myself.

And we had a relationship with the
people who had previously owned

Premier and cracked a deal so that
we bought the assets of Premier.

That was it.

It was like the machines spare parts.

Um, we had some inventory here
and Andy set out to design.

And manufacture and distribute what
we would've considered the best

scope or what we would want it to
be the best scope on the planet.

That's a lofty goal.

It was a lofty goal, and it still
maintains to be a lofty goal, but

we've come a long way in the last eight

years.

Well, a lofty goal from somebody who's
building Remington's 700 s and izing

them and selling them, and then getting
into the optics world that, I mean,

there's a entre, entrepreneurial sort
of spirit that goes with all of this,

which is, uh, something that really
kind of, uh, uh, sat in the back of my

head and was, uh, reinforced meeting
everybody here and meeting Andy.

You know, that's saying,
show me your friends.

I'll show you who you are.

Right?

Yeah.

Well, when you go to a company and,
uh, let's say you go to your local

subway and the people who are uh,
working there are happy and chipper you.

Got an idea as to what management's
like and, uh, what work environment

is, you know, they're gonna spit

in your sandwich or not

Right,

exactly.

Exactly.

You go there and everyone's
upset and you're like, okay.

Or, or they're rude or they're,
they typically kind of will

mirror what the management's like.

And um, that was one of the interesting
things here, speaking with you as

a vice president in your role and.

All, every, all your coworkers from,
from all different walks of life.

Yeah.

Everyone's happy.

Everyone's smiling.

Everyone's having a great time.

And I mean, it's not
like, it's almost Friday.

It's

Friday.

Come on.

No, it's Thursday.

Oh, it's Thursday.

It's Thursday.

Come on.

All right.

So no excuse there.

Right?

Um, and before you go on, cause I
want to, I want to hear about how

tangent theta and, and the goal there,
uh, talking about the, the L can.

So l can e, l can, so that'd
be Ernst Litz Canada, right?

Yep.

Okay.

You got it.

So is Ernst Litz the second who kind of
propelled the company forward, from my

understanding anyways, and they have four
subdivisions under Leica, I think it is.

So high end camera optics,
solars, I'm sure everyone's.

Leica if they haven't heard of Elkin.

Have you, do you know anything about
the, um, the Leica Underground Railroad

or under, have you heard of this thing?

I

have heard of it.

I don't know if I know
all the details, but, um,

well, I don't know the details either.

That's why I was gonna ask.

But from my understanding, so there

was a group of people that
came from, if I'm reading this

right, from Germany into Canada,

from what I understand, uh,
During, uh, the war, the Holocaust?

Uh oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, Ernst Litz would hire specifically
people, Jewish people, and then, uh,

station them in places outside of Germany.

Right.

And, and it became a thing where hundreds
and hundreds of people were coming through

and he would be hiring them and station
'em in other places and he would set them

up with, uh, funds to get them going.

And, uh, I think everyone got a
camera as well, if I'm not mistaken.

You know what,

I'm gonna have to dig into this cuz
I, I didn't know all that detail.

I, I heard a little bit, but

this is, this is something I've heard
the past because what I, from what I

understand, and his daughter as well was
heavily involved with that and she was,

um, um, I think something to do with,
uh, Ukrainian slave labor mostly Wow.

Women and helping to,
uh, uh, empower them.

Like just some really, really
phenomenal things out of that.

Out of the, out of that family.

And apparently nobody
wanted to talk about it.

Uh, they didn't want it publicized.

And so after the last one,
I guess passed away, they've

gone and made a book out of it.

And I think they made some sort of
a Netflix show or a movie out of it.

But, uh, really?

Yeah.

But, so there's, how did I miss all that?

There, there's an interesting kind of
heritage thing that goes in line with

trying to do good, um, taking risks.

And those are some big risks right?

At that, at that point in time.

That's a big

risk.

. Oh yeah.

You know, show me your friends.

I'll show you who you are.

Yeah.

I mean, uh, there's, uh, uh, you guys
working with the er, Litz Corporation

and you're doing some interesting
things as well, innovating in some

risky ways within your company.

I thought that was an interesting
little tidbit of, uh, that's

interesting of history there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so they're looking, they
say, look, we want to make the

best rifle optics in the world.

What does that mean?

Like, what, what are we looking at?

Quality?

Sure.

Yes.

Um, The support for it.

The things that, if you're referring
to what Andy set out in tangent

data, it was without question
everything that he could find that

he thought was the best in class.

Mm-hmm.

, and we really set out to be the
Rolls Royce of the optics world.

That was our internal goal.

We wanted to be the best in
optical quality in clarity.

We wanted to have the scope
that was the most repeatable.

So it went out to the extreme ranges.

It came back to zero.

We really wanted to have the scope that
was, um, I mean, the quickies clicks

on the planet, the trickiest clicks.

We wanted the clique AST clicks.

You don't want mushy clicks, we
don't want mushy clicks, but we

wanted it to be very precise.

And a tangent, theta
scope is an instrument.

Um, and it's kind of a
self-testing instrument almost.

Um, it's, it, it has come into
this world and proven itself to all

of its users just by being good.

And it's really easy for me, as you
know, the sales guy to Sure talk

about that stuff and say, yeah, yeah,
we're the best or sure, whatever.

Nobody really believes me.

But when you get eyes on the scope,
when you get to go to the range, right?

When you get to run it to the extreme
extremes, or if you get to come and tour

through the plant and you see how we test
it, how the design was tested, how every

single production model gets tested.

Then you can see maybe how we got to the
best scope in the world, but being the

best, you know, it, it also means a lot
more than just having a good product.

You have to stand behind your product.

You have to support the product.

We're not immune to issues, right?

Like everybody else.

Sure.

It's a bespoke product.

These are handcrafted scopes.

Things go wrong.

Mm, sorry.

Things go wrong, . But we like
to think that we stand behind

everything that happens and uh,
we take it extremely serious.

If there's an issue and
a customer has a problem.

Things stop.

We get the scope back.

The same people that build the scope are
the same people that repair the scope.

So, um, we're a fairly lean,
mean operation here, but we're,

we take all that stuff to heart.

So being the best means people
will use our products, people, um,

see the value in what we sell our
products for sure, because we are

at the very high end of the scale.

Not absolutely highest,
but we're, we're up there.

There's

prier scopes out there,
but you're up there.

We're up there.

You know, I remember reading
one place talking about,

um, It's like Mercedes-Benz.

Yeah.

They said, we want to build the best
vehicle, and once it's built, we'll

take a look at all the costs involved
in order to do this and price it

accordingly, as opposed to saying, well,
we've got a, we've got a cost bracket

that we want to be working around.

What do we have to start culling?

What do we have to cut?

And so we can meet that and
still have a good vehicle.

It sounds like you guys have taken
the approach of let's just build the

absolute best and then work our way

backwards.

We're, I mean, we've been saying this
since the inception of Tangent Theater.

We're fairly unapologetic about our
price , and we wanted to make sure.

, the people that spend the
money, they're gonna get that

value and they're going mm-hmm.

get what?

We hope that they see the value in that.

Um, yeah.

And we don't, we don't wanna
sacrifice, um, you know, tolerances

or parts or whatever that might be.

And that would degrade the
quality of the product.

Mm-hmm.

and, uh, as you saw today, there's a lot
of little parts, a lot of little bits

that go into a sniper rifle telescope.

Right.

I think, I'm gonna get this wrong,
it's like 252 individual little parts.

Some of them have tolerances
of microns and mm-hmm.

when you're putting that all together
and put it on a shock tester and

tested at a thousand GS for a thousand
drops or whatever we are doing to

qualify it, it's gotta hold up.

Mm-hmm.

, but it also has to hold up in the field.

It has to hold up to recoil.

You know, our scopes are qualified
to 50 calibers and higher,

but they also have to survive.

Being, you know, jumped out of a
plane into the water, outta the water,

into an atmosphere, whatever this,
whatever the situation might provide.

So we're building scopes for professional
users, and that might be military,

police, um, professional shooters or
guys who just see the value and, and.

Spending the money on a good product.

Well, I, I know I've got some questions
that, uh, we put out through, uh,

social media just for people who
are interested in learning a bit

more about the, uh, the scopes.

Yeah.

Uh, one of the things that I thought was
pretty neat was, was the shock testing.

The pressure testing the
temperature testings.

Like you guys will get these things down.

Like what, how far below negative

we go to, we go to the mill spec,
which I think is negative 85.

Whoa.

And plus the same, I believe as 85 or 90.

Wow.

Um, I, I think maybe it'd be good
to step back a little bit because we

do a lot of different things here.

Mm-hmm.

, um, and maybe we can just take a
minute to explain like, we are the

master dis distributor for Elkin.

We have, um, our radical and some
IP in the scopes that we sell.

We are the OEM manufacturer
of tangent data.

Yeah, we have several brands, um, that
we make, like sa i optics, zop Tech,

and then we have Tenter Bricks, right?

So we're a little confusing to
some and, uh, lines kind of get

a little skewed sometimes and,
and people get a little confused.

So the stuff that we test and
we build in here, tangent theta

are, is our design, our baby.

And as you saw, we, we run the test and
all that, but we also run all those same

tests on all of the other scopes that
we sell, even though we don't make 'em.

Oh, that's awesome.

So we wanna make sure that everything,
I didn't realize that everything we

do gets held up to the same standard.

It may not be the same thing that
we're building in house, but we're

holding it to the same standard and.

Sa I optics, which we
can talk about later.

We've aided in the design.

We don't make it here,
it's made for us in Japan.

Mm.

But we've got a lot of experience.

We have a lot of smart people, we
have optical engineers, and we have

a network of people that, um, we've
just developed over the last, you

know, 34 years of being in business.

So we've got a pretty deep bench to draw
from, and that goes into our designs,

whether we make it in house or not.

Um, but we make sure that
whatever we sell, we wanna be,

you know, the best in class.

Right.

Well, do you wanna jump into a couple
of the questions that people had?

Yeah.

I, I got some questions about, uh,
a hunting trip that, uh, needed

to before, but, but before we get
into that, let's just see, see if

I can pull it up here on my phone.

Questions are good.

Yeah.

Um, I.

Ooh, here's an interesting one.

Release date for a tangent.

Seven to 35.

Can't

tell you.

Okay.

No, I didn't tell you.

. So we are, we've been
working on a seven to 35.

We've been reluctant to give
a lot of information out.

Did a podcast a few months ago where
we kind of leaked a little bit of

it and, um, spread like wildfire.

Mm-hmm.

, we are hoping that we'll have
something for a, a demo model for shot.

It may not be an official
release, but we might have

something at chat show this year.

Uh, we're kind of stuck on a
couple components, so supply

chain's been a bit of an issue.

Um, why takes out happened?

Happened idea.

Yeah.

Uh, We're planning and hoping
that it will be in shot timeframe.

If that doesn't happen, we
will be shortly after that.

But we're looking at Q1 for a
potential release of seven to 35.

Wow.

That's

pretty soon.

We're pretty excited.

Well, and that answers the next one.

How long till they release a
tan theto, the 35 to 37 top end.

So they, that would be about the same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Will they ever make an a i
six with a different radical?

We

will.

Um, so I guess maybe we can
talk a little bit about that.

So we constantly try to be innovative and
figure out new things, and we get a lot of

feedback from our customer base and what
they like and what they don't like, and

we try to kind of fit it into our model.

So what we're working on now is,
uh, I look on mill based radical.

So everything that we have in aai.

Well, there's two options.

Um, it's our rapid aiming, radical
calibrated in 5 56 or 7 62.

And it's the same calibrations that
we use for the Elkin one to four.

So it's very similar ballistics.

We have had a lot of feedback
that people just wanna have a

mill just straight up mill tree
radical, so we're working on that.

Um, we're still multiple months away
from that being a product, um, just with

kind of the cycles and probably also
looking at a MOA version, um, as well, so,

okay.

Very cool.

Yep.

Uh, this is my favorite question.

Uh, so the last one was by, uh, a
gear report key Who asked that one?

Then we've got a ger dot.

Who do small circle glass make far away?

Bigger . Did you see that one?

Yes, I did.

I don't know what I think

the answer was.

Yes, the answer there is

yes.

. Um, what about spotting scopes?

This is Okanagan precision shooters.

Good question.

Uh, we talk about that frequently in our
r and d meetings, and the answer right now

is no, there's no direct plan for that.

Um, we have, you know, we have the ability
to do that, but our focus right now

is on our core business of our primary
models and our new released models.

Um, we have a, we have a,
a very large back order.

Um, we we're doing our best to
make them as fast as we can.

Sure.

But we're really kind of at capacity in
some regards and we're looking to expand.

I don't know if we've got room
right now for a spotting scope.

I'm, it's not off the, not off the table,
but there's no short term plan for it.

Yeah.

I guess, you know, building the
company out, you gotta make sure you're

taking those steps in manageable.

Manageable steps and manageable steps.

As growth comes, you
can take bigger steps.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we, um, everything
is an option at this point.

Um, we just wanna make sure we're
doing the right thing and we're

satisfying the customers that
are, you know, buying from us now.

And we just, we don't
wanna let anybody down.

So.

Yeah.

No, that makes sense.

The, um, look, looking.

You know, the people say, you know,
we punch above earth weight class

looking what you guys have built.

Starting from, Hey, I work on Remington
700 actions and I ize them to now I'm

a distributor working on, uh, optics
for the Canadian military to, I want

to have the best glass in the world.

Like, those are some pretty big
steps for, for a company to take.

I would say, I guess when you

put it like that,

,
and you talked, we've talked before
about it, and you, and you briefly

brought it up at the, uh, the beginning
about risks, taking risks on ensuring

that you, you just invest more into the
company on inventory in order to have

things on hand for whatever eventuality.

Yeah.

We realized that early.

Um, if we don't have the inventory
or we're not planning, you know,

years in advance, that's, that's been
one of the keys to our success on

pretty much all of our brands and,
and developments and, uh, we don't.

Uh, sometimes we miss the mark
and, you know, we'll sell more

and we get stuck with no inventory
or we can't make it fast enough.

Mm.

We, we try to always
have something in stock.

Tangent data has kind of been
the exception because it's, it's

been, I mean, it's been great
and it's been very popular.

We just, we would, we'll get better
at getting them out quicker, but

right now we're just, we don't wanna
miss out on the quality and we just

don't want, we don't want rush.

Right.

How over quantity, take
the time to get it right or

Right.

Yeah.

Quality over quantity.

Yeah.

Have, have there been times, just from
a personal interest, from a sort of like

business development standpoint, have
there been times when you've taken those

risks of, uh, stocking extra inventory
and it's really bit you in the butt?

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course.

But, you know, we, we manage it, um, in a
way that it doesn't impact the business.

Mm-hmm.

, um, and we've been.

We've been pretty lucky that we, you
know, we, we drive it fairly hard and

we've got a lot of good connections
and there's a lot what we're stocking

up on when we get caught in those
situations, it's only usually for a few

months that we have to, to carry it.

Generally, it's not because of something
that we've done or a customer's done.

It's been a market condition or
something changed politically that has,

you know, has changed a motivation.

But things usually come back around and

so if, if a few months down the
line it kind of figures itself out.

It doesn't sound like it's been
in the hardest bite in the butt.

No, no.

It's, it was kind of the answer I
figured it'd come to, and I only

figured that was a little sting.

Little sting for a bit, but
we'll figure away because.

Uh, from the entrepreneur mindset
and really everybody who works here

seems to have a, uh, the freedom or
ability to be able to make suggestions

or effect change within the company
in a way that, uh, an owner, an

entrepreneur could, um, There's always
an answer, there's always a solution.

There's always a way when you
get to the end and you look back,

did the ends justify the means?

Like, did I, like, should have
I just cut bait sooner and,

and just counted my losses?

But um, maybe yes, maybe no.

But it seems to me from talking to
everybody here and yourself, that

uh, big key to the success that ATI
has seen is in its ability to be, and

I'm using air brackets here, lucky.

And of course, you know, the harder
we work, the luckier, luckier we

get by some weird coincidence.

Yeah, yeah.

Thanks.

Yeah.

So we are a very entrepreneurial
company and our culture really

breeds that in all of our employees.

And I think there's that, um,
that mentality that people

will do whatever it takes to.

Get things done when they
need to get them done.

We did a tour of Tenex earlier today
and you know, you all the, the people

in the back that are working through
thousands and thousands of flip cover

kits and ours, and it's not uncommon
that, you know, we've got a production

schedule that goes out to multiple months,
sometimes straight out over a year.

A customer will call.

So listen, I know we're not scheduled
to receive these parts until, you

know, three months away, but we
really need them next week cuz it's

holding up a big military order.

Mm-hmm.

, there goes nights and weekends for
everybody, but nobody complains,

everyone drops and does whatever it
needs to do to get that stuff out

to do our best to help the customer.

And it, and it's right across the company.

It's not just in our tenex line,
tangent data operations and support.

Like we really have a
good group of people here.

Um, that get her done.

That get her done.

That get her done.

Yeah.

Lucky air, air quotes here, air quotes

lucky.

And we have a very low turnover rate.

The people that come in.

Like I said, it breeds that, just the
culture and the mentality and once

people come in, you know, we take care.

We like to think we take care of our
people and you know, we hope that

they stick around.

Well, I get kind of a
family vibe here, honestly.

I know you guys aren't all related,
but you get kind of a family

vibe that everybody is working.

That's an Atlantic Canadian thing.

There you go.

Yeah, it's a maritime thing

maybe.

Maybe in some ways, but I'm sure not all
maritime companies are gonna have that.

Um, Kyle Mack asked, can you
ask him what kind of glass

they use in the E one to six?

Is it the same they use
in the Elkin offerings?

So let's talk about glass for a minute.

Okay.

Let's step away and talk
about glass for a second.

Cause Sure.

We get that question a lot.

And it's not just for AAI,
but optics in general.

There is a few places in the world
where the substrates come from and there

are many different specs for glass.

And inside of a scope
there's lots of glass, right?

Right.

So it's not just the glass
that's on the objective end.

Yeah.

There's multiple lenses and, and
elements that are throughout it.

And all of them have different
specifications and could

come from different places.

So, . We spec and source all of our
glass for tangent data from Germany.

That can come from multiple sources.

Um, some are in Asia and others are
in Germany, and others are in Japan.

And they could all be
mixed in different areas.

And it's kind of like the secret
sauce that nobody talks about,

but there is no real good answer.

But we get all of our stuff
from Germany for tangent data.

Aai all comes from Japan, right?

That's where the scopes are manufactured.

Some of that glass may come from Germany.

Some of that glass may come from Asia.

Some of that glass is made in
Japan, but it's all done by the

speck of the actual element when
it gets designed in the optical,

um, in the optical design early on.

So the answer to the question specifically
is it's probably mostly Japanese glass.

Okay.

Um, in the sa i, it's not the same
as the glass that's in tangent data.

Very similar in the quality
and the spec and the design,

because we got to spec that.

Right?

So, um, there's a bunch of different
glass elements inside and they're

probably all a little bit different.

It's hard to say where exactly
each one's coming from.

Depends on the

spec.

That's a good point.

That's something I never
thought about actually, that

Where does a glass come from?

Well, not all of it necessarily
comes from the same place.

No, it doesn't, huh.

Um, generally speaking, I think there's,
uh, this thing that floats around on the

internet and people hear one word, like
there's a manufacturer in Germany, and

if, you know, it's that type of glass and
that just satisfies everyone in there.

Okay.

Well that's good marketing.

It's marketing.

Yeah.

Um, but I would say that most of
the manufacturers in the optics

field probably have the same.

Dilemma and elements come
from all over the place.

It just depends on what the
quality is and what the clarity

is and how the resolution works.

Makes sense.

So hopefully that answers the

question.

Okay.

Kack, and he also doubled up here, he
says, uh, and also in another pen tax,

if they plan on releasing one to eight or
higher magnification scope or a new hybrid

type site like the L can, one to four and
one to six from sa i l can or TT data.

So if I just said yes, would
that, would that answer all?

Okay.

?
Yes.

Next question,

.
So, uh, Aai, we are planning
that to be a family of scopes.

It was always designed to be a
family of optics that was in a

different space than tangent data.

Tangent data is at the upper
end of the, of the pyramid.

There is a, a big market for quality
scopes in the mid-range price.

Um, and there are some holes in
maybe different magnifications

that work for different
applications that we've identified.

Not that it's a big surprise,
but we are working on a family of

optics to, um, build out our sa eye
line farther than the one to six.

So we had to start somewhere.

One to six was where we started.

Yeah.

We understand it's a, you know,
it's a pretty competitive market.

There's lots of great scopes out there.

We feel like we've got a good.

Start with Sayi and we're
gonna build on that.

So the answer is yes,

answer is yes.

Hey, good answer.

Um,

that I will say we're not gonna
build something that looks like

an kin one four that's separate.

Like kin is kins, kin kin's, Alcan, right?

We're looking at more of the low
power variable stuff, um, in different

magnifications that will be higher.

So we've talked about this one before and
that's about the radical on the one to

six and how it can be a bit polarizing.

Yeah.

And this guy says, I want to
get an A one to six, but the

radical leaves a lot desired.

It says, we'd love to see other
offerings, also maybe a one to eight.

So it looks like you've kind of
touched on that a little bit.

Next guy says, I agree
radical's not for everyone.

Glass clarity.

Uh, build quality color
correctness is spot on though.

And that was by gear report, Caleb.

So, uh, let's talk about a polarizing
radical cuz we, we had some chats

about this today about, uh, we did.

And the, uh, similarity
between my opinion anyways.

Boots, boots and radicals.

Yeah,

it's a bit of a fad.

Yeah, it's a bit of a thing.

Um, it's hard for us to, well I
think it's hard for the industry in

general to keep everything together.

There's not one radical
that satisfies everyone.

Mm-hmm.

. There's some that come close, but there's
a lot of design and the way people

shoot maybe is evolving a little bit.

And what they're looking for
is evolving, specifically our

rapid aiming radical, the.

We've had it for a long time and
it was designed originally in a

scope that was to bracket a torso
from shoulder to hip, right?

And that X-Wing fighter look that some
people call it that's at a hundred meters.

It's for fast acquisition and
really draws your eye to the

center of the target, right?

It's a lot for some people and
we knew that it was gonna be

polarizing when we put it out,
but a lot of radicals are anyway.

Sure.

People just don't like
some things about it.

Other people love it.

Most of the time people just have
to get behind it and they have to

look at it and they have to use it.

And to see the application and to see
it really draws the eye to the center

of the aiming point if you're moving,
um, and if you're shooting quick.

And that was the whole intent.

You know, I think a lot of people
get stuck in analysis paralysis.

Yeah.

As well as social proofing.

Yeah.

So like Amazon and social media and
arresting or different forums and

blogs, uh, people, if they're gonna
make a big purchase or even a little

purchase, they want to see, they want
to know, am I making the right decision?

And so they'll go and they'll look
at how many reviews are on and what

other people are saying about it.

And that can, that can influence
people's decisions a fair bit.

Yep.

And I likened it to Boots.

I remember I was heading, outing
a hike with a, uh, buddy of mine.

He just got back out the, uh, British
Army fit and tough as nails and,

and he's, oh, let's go for a hike.

We'll just walk up a couple of the hills
around here while they're, Not hills.

They're, they're mountains,
but, uh, not better.

Go get a pair of boots.

Someone's like, oh, those
Dans, you should get these.

Dans, they're the best boots ever.

They're so comfortable.

They work great.

You never get a blister.

Oh, Dans completely inappropriate
as a hiking boot, number one.

But, uh, at, at the time, or at least
the ones that I picked up were, and I

picked him up and, uh, I couldn't wear
shoes for about three weeks hours.

Oh, no.

, I had blisters so bad.

My, when I poured it, and it was
pouring rain too, when I poured

it out, it was just red, red
water coming out of these things.

Um, yeah, maybe they're great for
that person, but until you get

behind them and use 'em, everyone's
feet are gonna be different.

Everyone's eyes are gonna be different.

And we talk about glass.

I.

Quantifiably IA can say this is the
best glass ever, um, based on, on

scientific analysis, but how your
eye sees it and then your brain

perceives it, is gonna be a certain
level of subjectivity involved here.

And just like with those radicals,
there's gonna be some radicals that

some people just swear by and they just
say, this is the best and maybe it's

really good for them, but you really
have to go and try it for yourself.

You do.

And really, I've been shooting
since I've been four years old.

One thing that I have seen is a cycle
of fads is they come through and they

go over and it's all brand new again.

But you can make anything work for you.

You can, maybe some things you're
tweaking a little bit, but I mean, even

your duplex radicals you can range with
if you have known, uh, measurements

on them and you can Exactly right.

And you can make, uh, calls with it.

And, uh, just the old school
Hunter, hunter, duplex, um, so.

I think for people when they're looking
at radicals, it's really important to

not get tied up in what everybody else
might be saying, but take a look at your

specific application of what you're hoping
to use it for the majority of the time.

Yeah, and then work your
way back from there.

Does this one fit and will it do well and.

I don't know.

I, from my perspective, I think
that's a, uh, it's not Gucci and

sexy and in a marketing thing, like
always putting a new radical out.

But, uh, we're trying not to be
Gucci and markety and all that

stuff, but I mean, it, it happens.

And right when we released the A one
to six with the rapid aiming radical,

we were really targeting like three
gun shooters, fast moving, quick

acquisition of the target, right?

Uh, that was what, you know, it,
it, it brackets an IPSec target

at hundred meters perfectly.

Yeah.

Uh, that was the intent.

And you know, like you said, you can make
that work for pretty much anything if you,

if that suits you and it doesn't annoy
you every time you look through the scope.

But

I got, I got one more question
I think I can ask in here.

Then I wanna delve a little
bit just about, uh, more about

the company, cuz it Sure.

It does intrigue me.

Sure.

Sure.

Um, uh, here's a good one.

How do I get a.

Thanks for all these questions.

This is great.

Yeah, no problem.

I mean, this isn't me.

This people just written in and,
um, Adam Bach says Adam, I've known

him since he's been 12 years old.

Fantastic fellow.

Um, he's on the range any day that
he can get away and get on the range

and helping others do the same.

Nice, uh, good instructor, good
ambassador for, uh, for the,

uh, the gun world in general.

Um, he said, I'd like to know about
the scope, price points and durability.

Is there a diminishing return on
expensive scope when it comes to the

view that it can take and still function
flawlessly with super high end scopes?

Does the end user expect better,
build quality to withstand harsher

punishment, or is it just exact
extracting perfect optical clarity.

And then he has an also, so this
is actually three questions also.

Can he physically wear
a scope turt from use?

So that I'm sure you
maybe got the last one.

So why don't we just go
through em systematically?

Sure,

yeah, yeah, sure.

So I think going back to making the best
scope on the planet and the quality and

the support, there is an expectation
that that scope is more ruggedized.

We're building them for a
military, uh, specification.

We expect that soldiers would use
them, um, in their day to day taskings

and everything beneath that, we also
understand, and we weren't the scopes

against manufacturers, defects for
the life of a tangent, the scope.

We are designing these things
to last and, you know, to take a

lick and keep on ticking, right?

If I'm allowed to say that right?

It's like, yeah.

So I think yes.

If you are paying good money for a scope,
you can expect it, it's gonna last.

Um, but if you're a guy who falls
and drops the scope on a rock or

whatever, follow your tree stand or
the things that life put in front

of you that aren't necessarily
manufacture defects, eh, you know what?

That may not be the case, but it depends.

Everything is situational.

Yeah.

And for the times that that has happened
in the past, we'll bring a scope back in.

We'll have a look at it.

Most cases, if we can
fix it, we'll fix it.

If there's some minimal cost, like
there's things that we can't fix.

Sure.

If you scratch the glass, if you bust
an element, It has to be replaced.

Right.

I mean, but we can figure that
out on a case by case basis.

There is that care of the glass, how you
clean the glass, the lick of the glove

and the little, but that doesn't work.

Yeah.

What I mean, that's the most common
thing that we have, like Yeah.

What's that little swirly mark thing?

So yeah, so there is an expectation
of common sense, but generally we

will stand behind our products.

But I think going back to the question,
, you should expect your scope to last

a little bit longer, to take a little
bit more of a, a lick within, you

know, uh, um, a degree of understanding
that it can only take so much.

It is really aluminum and glass, right?

So, uh, inside of that, uh, we test to a
certain, our designs are tested, improved,

and then our scopes are also tested,
um, individually every single scope that

leaves this faculty has a thousand rounds
on our drop tester at a thousand Gs.

And you were lucky enough
to witness that today?

Yeah.

That drive being insane.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And it's just behind us here.

So funk fun all day.

We wanna make sure that the elements
stay together, all the pieces work when

you're using them in extreme ranges.

So when the erector tube gets
dialed up to its extreme.

Ups and downs.

Yeah.

Um, and left and right.

Yeah.

That it comes back to its optical
center where you've zeroed it

and has a repeatable function.

So that's very important and we
test it through multiple phases.

Um, we leak test each one to make sure
that there's no design flaw in the scope.

Um, if there is, it goes
back to the drawing board.

Mm-hmm.

, we drop test it, all our scopes are filled
with nitrogen, so they're not susceptible

to the temperature, temperature changes
and build up of, um, condensation inside

on the glass if something changes.

So all that's pretty serious
stuff and intended for, you know,

professional, serious users.

And

you know, we were talking before
about a, um, a batch that I was at and

it rained and like we're in British
Columbia and it rained and rained

and like it was a multi-day match.

And day two, there was three people
on the line and they all just so

happened to be, maybe there were.

A same batch run or something, but
it was another scope company, not

an inexpensive scope company, and
they're having fogging issues in there.

And it struck me that um, now this
company's probably producing a lot more

and maybe they're not able to, um, test
each in every scope in the same way.

But the level of confidence that comes
with knowing that you're actually

gonna be able to see your target.

Yeah.

Whether it's just a competition and
it's a, um, uh, and it's sort of

extreme conditions or you're out
hunting and it's really, uh, cold out.

I mean, they, they
couldn't see the target.

The thing's just fogged
completely up on 'em.

It's problem.

Yeah.

Something kept going through and
that pressure testing that was

just kind of neat cuz you'd, on the
underneath side of the scope that you

got this thing you can attach before
it's solve fully, fully assembled.

Yep.

And it's gotta maintain and have
zero pressure leak in or out.

And, um, , there's ways, if
there was a leak, they'd be able

to, uh, determine and find it.

I mean, that we've talked before on
the podcast about like the Nike effect.

Yep.

You put Nikes on, you can
run faster and jump higher.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and that's just a
psychological thing cuz people

have a confidence in what it is.

If I look better, I'll do better.

Right.

But shooting is such
a psychological thing.

Yeah.

Right.

They say it's 90.

So

with tangent, thes, you can
shoot farther and faster.

Right.

.
Right.

Because you got that psychological
sort of look, I, I have the confidence

in knowing that it's been drop tests
x amount of times and very annoyingly

in an office where you keep hearing
these ths where it's got the, um,

Uh, where it's been pressure tested,
I've, yeah, I thought that was the,

uh, uh, personally, I, if I were you
guys, I'd be putting that on the whole

marketing brochure and, uh, and showing

it out there.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that adds to, you know, the,
the build time and that, yeah.

Again, we don't sacrifice the
quality and we wanna make sure that

every one of them is tested and,
um, that is super important to us.

But, you know, to the other guys in the
line that had the fogging issue Yeah.

Like us, like them, we're not, you
know, immune to all of these issues.

Sometimes, you know, the Murphy shows
up or there's a, there's a problem.

But again, it's how you handle
it and how do you deal with it?

How do you deal with it?

And that's a very serious
issue around here.

So,

So we have a few more questions,
but I'll get into 'em afterwards

because you were talking a little
bit about, uh, care and maintenance.

So you're saying I can't spit
on my objective landing anymore?

Well, I mean, you can, but and,
uh, and rub it off with steel wolf.

No, that's, that's, that's probably not

best practice.

Okay.

So, uh, what about, uh, giving a
little, uh, breath and, uh, maybe using

a microfiber cloth or, that's okay.

Kleenex.

That's a Kleenex.

I, that's a little sketchy.

Unless you really had to, so, okay.

Every scope now ships with a lens pen.

Um, tangent data.

Um, well, it's actually Tenex
lens pen and a microfiber cloth.

Okay.

We had story time.

Okay.

So we had a, an instruction sheet on
our website probably five, six years

ago where, There was this whole detailed
set of instructions where you had like

canned air and you blew the, all the
dust off the, the glass with the canned.

Oh.

Can be careful with that.

So yeah, I certainly do.

How do you be blasts well
pressed air and particles

anyways?

Well, this particular story was, um,
a bench rush shooter in the desert.

Was it?

Upside down?

Upside down.

And the glass exploded.

Okay.

I'll let you talk it through
for people who don't understand

what's gonna happen here.

So he read the instructions and he was
cleaning because it was dusty on the

desert and, uh, wanted to clear the
glass off before he used the lens pen.

But, It was 110 degrees in the desert,
took the canned air and instead of

just blowing it off, turned the canned
air upside down, which kind of turns

into like this liquid nitrogen right.

Type thing.

Yeah.

And sprayed the objective lens
with the canned air upside down.

It, it popped.

So our bad, we shouldn't have
said, don't do that on the desert.

When it's 110, we help the guy out.

Sure.

Uh, so again, back to this whole common
sense, don't put anything that's abrasive.

Um, your service gloves with a little
leather, you know, that that was a, that

was a big thing with a lot of the C 79 s.

We get back, you know,
guys get sand in the lens.

It's like, I gotta see.

So the tongue and the thing,
it works for a while, but Sure.

What we say is, you know, if you have
a lens pen with a brush or there, you

can buy these little, um, like little
blower tubes that will kind of blow

some light air clear off the lens.

You can, um, turn the lens pen
around and there's a little pad,

right, that has some solution on it.

So it gets out all the spots.

Uh, it's pretty slick.

It's easy.

Just don't use anything that's abrasive.

So the stuff that you think is gonna
work, the stuff you'd use on your

eyeglasses would be the same thing.

Okay?

So you can spray, um, some like alcohol,
uh, on the lens to clear it off, but would

that, would that detract from the
coatings that are on the lens?

A little No alcohol?

No.

No.

But.

Particles and scratch as well.

Okay.

Yeah.

So

you know that compressed air
cans, when I was younger, I used

to get a fair few letters about
the school to my, to my home.

And, uh, they weren't always good letters,
not really, but I was able to take that

compressed air upside down and he can
press down on the paper and spray it and

it makes a whole thing go translucent.

So you can read what's actually in the
envelope and then it's shortly after

it all kind of evaporates and dries up.

Oh, I like that.

Yeah.

That was, that was my little spy

trick.

. I like that.

Yeah.

So no canned air?

No canned

air, no cann air.

Okay.

So that's basic cleaning.

Um,

straightforward.

We do have instructions on our
website that don't have canned

air, that don't have canned air.

At least I hope they don't
know we took that out.

Um, there's some detailed stuff
and there's different options

depending on the level of cleaning,
but just general maintenance is,

What if someone does get a
scratch on there, can that be like

polished out or is that the coding?

That's,

that's the coding.

So you're, so if the, if the lens gets
scratched, depending on whether you can

live with it, um, it means that either
has to be, well, it has to be replaced

or it's just beyond economical repair.

Do you, you know, I've seen
scratch lenses, I've looked

through and they look just fine.

Right.

But you look at the lens, they can
have some pretty good scratches.

Yep.

Just like with like photography,
you can scratch a lens up

and it takes great pictures.

Uh, does it have to be pretty significant
of a scratch for you to have some

sort of an optical issue or, well,

I think it's more what
the user can manage.

Um, so some people just.

Stand to look through their scope and
see any degradation in the image, whether

it be a little spot of dirt, um, and
sometimes dirt gets loose inside through

the, like through the production process.

It happens.

Yeah.

There'll be spots in the glass.

Some people can live with
it, some people can't.

Yeah.

Scratch doesn't really degrade
what it is, except it's an

obstruction in your line of sight.

Okay.

So it

depends.

So that clean room that
you guys have upstairs?

Yep.

That was pretty cool.

So you're a little.

Uh, first thing I noticed when I went in
there is a bit warmer, a bit more humid.

Yep.

Tri Lamin Flow benches.

So there's a positive airflow that
goes through the whole clean room,

which is meant to keep all the
dust particles and all the dirt.

That's why they don't
let sales guys in there.

So we just keep all
that stuff out of that.

Uh, and sales guys, you know, we have
our, we have our people that work in

the pods inside and we do our best
to keep the dust and the dirt down

even throughout the whole office.

We keep it at a very high humidity
and we just wanna keep all

that stuff at a, at a minimum

human arrow bind to the particles.

Keep it down.

You got it.

Smart.

Um, okay, so got an idea on cleaning.

How about, uh, what are things I can do
to really, uh, mess up mounting the scope?

Good question.

We get it a lot and there are a lot of.

Ring manufacturers.

Um, we've pretty much run the
gamut of most of the major ones.

And we found, uh, kind of the sweet
spot for our five to 20 fives where

we publish a torque spec for the rings
and it's 25 inch pounds regardless

of what the ring manufacturer
says is the limit for their rings.

Mm.

So we have a lot of experience in history
through our past life with Premier mm-hmm.

um, dealing with their scopes.

There were some thin wall scopes
where if you over toed the, the

rings, it would pinch, um, the
tube which crossed the erector,

which caused issues with parallax.

Some cases you could release the
tension on, on the rings, and it

would go back to what would be normal.

Other cases it didn't and it had
be erect apart, so, We understood

that in the design for five to 25.

So we beefed up the tube a little
bit and we made it more rugged.

And we published a spec to torque your
rings too, which is 25 inch pounds.

I just said it.

Yeah, I Say it again.

25 inch pounds.

. Yeah.

And pretty much all of the major
manufacturers now, you'll have no issues,

but there are issues that come up if
you, you know, just are mutant sometimes

and forget and over torque stuff.

It happens to the best of

us.

Well there's, you know, uh,
when I started working on guns,

nobody talked about torque specs.

Yep.

Uh, and then they became all their age.

Everyone says it's gotta be at
this, otherwise your gun will

fall apart or it'll blow up.

It just won't work.

And I think it's, if you have a feel and
know where to tighten it to, and it's

not gonna, You're good and you're done.

Um, some things that I've seen are
people who don't, uh, store their,

their torque wrenches properly.

I mean, good point.

Most have to be taken right back
down to zero and released, and

they'll have inaccurate readings.

Or if they start using oil in
there, or lock tight fluid's gonna

change your, your settings again.

And they're, oh no, it said 25 when
I did there, or whatever it might be.

Um, having that feel is
something you can't really teach.

Yeah.

I guess over a booklet or, or YouTube,
it might be a difficult thing to teach.

Yeah.

And maybe that's why they came up
with the, everyone started getting

hot and heavy for, uh, torque specs.

Specs.

Yeah.

Uh, it happens and you know,
there's new ring manufacturers

that come up all the time.

Uh, we try to work with everyone and
we try to make sure that our stuff is,

you know, quote unquote bulletproof.

We're susceptible to all the same
issues that everyone elses, right?

And, uh, the, yeah, the, the specs right
now are higher than what they were,

um, lower than what most manufacturers
recommend that their rings are capable of.

Mm-hmm.

, but you don't always necessarily need
to have it maxed out and, you know,

if you do run into an issue and you've
mounted your scope up and you find

like there's a problem on when, on a
tangent, data parallax doesn't seem

to be right, first of all, give us
a call, maybe second of all crank it

down a little bit or just check to
make sure you're at the right spec.

Maybe, you know, have a do over but um,
you know, give us a call to shop and

we can walk you through all that stuff
cuz you know, that's pretty important.

Sure.

I'd say so.

What about, um, Let's see.

Uh, so when you're mounting this
thing, I'm keeping it level.

Do you have any tips and tricks
for people aside from, uh,

we have a, we have a whole big
instruction sheet on very detailed,

uh, procedures to level a scope.

Okay.

But I mean, how do you level your scope?

Do you level your gun use a plum, bob?

Yeah.

I mean, it's you, if you don't have all
the tools, you can kind of make it up.

Yeah.

Um, and in most cases

it works.

Yeah.

That's what, that's sort of what I found.

And you know, if you got an
eye for it, you should be able

to see if it's level or not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think if you have a, a stable
base for your gun level, your

gun derails as best you can.

Yeah.

Mount your scope.

Use a plum bob hanging off the wall.

Yeah.

Level your radical.

I mean, there's a lot of more
detailed stuff that you can go

through, but it depends on, on,

well, you know, and some people say
like they'll put a level on top of their

scope and they'll say, well, this scope.

Uh, caps might not
necessarily be level Yeah.

With theoreticals.

Correct.

In most cases I don't think they are.

Okay.

I don't think like the not a
good procedure for you to set the

level on top of our scopes or any
scope, cuz it's not necessarily

the same in line with your rail.

Um,

yeah, that's a good point.

Um, I don't know, did we, did we
answer the last question there

on the, uh, can you wear out
your, uh, no we didn't turrets.

No, but let's go back to that.

Yeah.

Then we're back.

Cause that's an important one.

Okay.

That's one that we pride ourselves
on and we spent millions of dollars.

To focus.

Um, we wanted millions.

Oh, like hyperbole Easy.

Yes.

Easy.

No, not hyperbole.

No, no.

. We spent many years in development to
get to the place where a, we had the

cliques clicks and that they didn't
degrade over time and use, so we

set up multiple jigs and the way our
tens work are a little bit different.

They're not, you know, all tens.

We have a little special,
special, special thing inside.

Yeah.

Um, saw that it pretty cool.

It is pretty cool.

We mounted it on a jig and we hooked it
up to, you know, it was pretty basic.

It was a drill and we let.

Run for weeks and hundreds of thousands
of rotations, which far exceeded

what the normal life expectancy would
be, probably of the user of a scope.

Sure.

Um, and in most cases, nobody would ever
be adjusting the turrets to that level.

That's, and

really ocd, but sure, it could

happen . So what we wanted to make
sure is that over time those clicks

didn't get mushy and they stayed
precise and crisp and tactile and

you could hear every positive click.

And that was very important in, in the
original design and slowed things down.

And we maintained that today.

And you saw it yourself.

Um, yeah.

There's people that spend a big
chunk of their day testing the clicks

and making sure that everything is.

Very cool.

So I would say no unless you
go completely crazy, which, uh,

you'd have to spend a lot of time.

Those clicks are not, our clicks are
not gonna, um, get worse over time.

I've got another question here.

It says, uh, I'd be interested in
a long range scope recommendation

for a 300 wind, ME 500 yard plus.

And, uh, this is from a fellow, uh,
Siri 300, and he's a, um, I know

him to be a hunter, been a waterfowl
hunting with him in the past.

I'm wondering if he's looking at this
from a precision rifle standpoint

or a hunting standpoint, but maybe
if that little background gives

a, uh, uh, flavor to an answer.

Uh, yep.

And, uh, I think we have something
that's in between all of that.

Mm-hmm.

, where you could cross into
precision rifle and hunting.

Uh, we have something that.

It kind of is dedicated
to completely hunting.

So we have about three to 15 in a
hunter, long range hunter model.

It has, um, special turrets, which
are, they're kind of locking, but

you have to click them up to dial
your targets, which I don't think

we actually get to see today.

But no, we didn't look at that, didn't we?

So the three to 15, it's a 30
millimeter tube more than capable

of, of, of, uh, engaging anything,
you know, 500 plus at that range.

Yeah.

And everything that we offer above
that would be, would be suitable.

It just depends on how much
weight you would like to carry.

Um, what zoom or what resolution
you wanna see at distance.

Obviously, a five to 25 is gonna get you
a little bit closer to whatever it is

you're aiming at, if that's what you want.

Mm.

Most people stick around 10 to
12 depending on how far their

engagements are, and I would say
you'd be comfortable at that level.

Um, so the answer that depends is
we probably have something that

would suit either strictly hunting
or in the middle of hunting and

competition or just competition.

What

would the middle one be?

What, what would you recommend for, uh,

three to 15 p?

So it has a 34 mil tube, has, uh,
a little bit more range, so it

gives you a little bit more, uh,
distance that you could reach out.

But still in a compact design, it's a
little bit heavier than the 30 mil tube.

Same beefy turrets as the five to 25.

Um, not as long, not as heavy.

Very good, capable scope.

Okay.

One thing that we haven't talked
about that we, I got to see firsthand

today was the toolless re zeroing.

Yes.

Yes.

That was pretty slick.

Yeah.

And you know what, sorry, we
forgot to talk about that.

How the heck, hasn't
anybody done that before?

I don't know.

Yeah.

So we've patented, uh, toolless re
zero and it, uh, it's really easy.

We have, uh, a screw on the top.

Um, very tactile, big fat
fingers will fit in there.

You, once you get your zero as we
did today, yeah, you unwind it.

Four, five revolutions.

Pick up your turret, put it back
to zero, tighten it back down.

You're

done.

Yeah.

And even holds your zero stop for you.

It does, it

reset.

It resets it.

So you then have, you know,
five clicks past that.

So

that's pretty damn

cool.

It's pretty damn cool.

Yeah.

It

works very well.

So if people haven't seen that and
they're interested, uh, I'm gonna

have something on the, uh, yeah.

Little

video that, a little
clip, so that'll be good.

Yeah.

Um, I'm looking at a
few notes I took here.

Um, president on Roster two.

Clean toilet . Yeah.

Quick notes taken down.

Right.

Nice work.

Make sure not to mention

.
Whoops.

We're gonna bring it up anyway.

. I, yeah.

I just passed my 10 year
mark with the company.

Um, feels like you, it was
just yesterday, like, so.

It's been great.

My previous life, I came from a large
defense contractor, um, was based outta

the UK kind of more corporate environment
and culture and kind of get tired of being

on the road, want to spend time with my
family and wasn't quite sure where to go.

And just by strike of luck, I found
this place and met with Ted and

Andy and came out with the company.

And within the first couple weeks I
went to the bathroom and there was a

duty roster on the back with a bunch
of names and a cleaning schedule.

And I'm like, what's this?

And.

Why's my name on that

It's like, well, you're up on Friday
for cleaning the bathroom, buddy.

Um, so it speaks to the
culture of our company.

And I was like, ah, you
gotta be kidding me.

And looking back now, it's pretty cool.

I mean, it's, it's super cool.

The president, the owner, there's nobody
that got excluded from cleaning the

toilet duty or scrubbing the floors.

We all took part in that.

I was, I believe, employee number
five or six when I, when I came on.

So, uh, it was entrepreneurial.

It still is.

We don't have to clean the toilets now.

We actually have somebody comes in
to do that, thank God, . Uh, we have

a lot more people too, so, yeah.

Uh, well, it

speaks to the, uh, to the business.

Like I always hate it.

Well, that's not my job.

It's not my department.

That's for someone else.

I do, I've worked here
for x amount of years now.

Right.

So I'm, I'm above that.

I mean, the job's a job.

We all do it.

Some are dirty, some aren't.

Yeah.

But I, I think it speaks volumes to, uh,
a place that I would enjoy working at

is one that that ego is left outside.

Yes.

Yes.

And that's one of the things
cuz I've seen, you know, like

David background and Yep.

And, uh, British Army, British
military, and, uh, uh, accomplished

individual as a PRS shooter.

I didn't get one whiff of ego from him.

Nope.

Or anybody else here.

Nope.

And their backgrounds, I mean, Andy,
like, holy girl, look at what he is done.

Yeah.

Right.

It's pretty amazing from nothing.

Yeah.

Pretty amazing.

Just out of his

basement.

Yeah.

Well I heard, uh, I didn't
actually know the whole story

with, uh, accuracy International.

I thought that was kind of interesting.

I think we can talk to the EI story maybe,
but, uh, accuracy International, just.

It just started out of their
basement, so to speak as well.

And they just two people working in
the shed and they got this contract

to, uh, uh, or possibility to have a
contract and they just rented a big

old warehouse and had their friends
dress up and, uh, yeah, look busy.

And they said, look it, this
is, this is our warehouse.

It was a part of the procurement process.

They had to do a factory tour,
but, uh, that sort of spirit

of just getting it done and now
look at 'em, where they're at.

AI is a, uh, I mean they supply all
the UK military with their precision

rifles and other, other armies as well.

Yeah.

The difference between them and
us at that point in time is we

actually owned the building, so

Oh,

.
Oh, it's funny.

Yeah.

Yeah,

for sure.

Um, you had a hunting story?

Want to hear this one?

You haven't brought it up yet.

No, I haven't.

Yeah, I don't know.

Haven't, so, uh, in the entire couple
days here, I, I heard something

about, uh, having to be medivaced out.

Uh, yeah.

Yeah.

So two years ago, I just passed
the two year anniversary.

Um, I grew up hunting, um,
with my dad and my brother, and

we hunt in the eastern shore.

It's a very rugged, um, thick, dense area.

Generally whitetail, you know,
if you are lucky, if you see

them at 20, you know, 50 yards.

And that's, that's max.

And uh, we had found this new spot
and we kind of planned for it for six

months, you know, looking at maps.

We got in done Rey and just, we set
up blinds and cameras and all that.

And, you know, my dad and my brother,
the plan was to go and sit in the blind.

Um, it was two lakes.

I was gonna go and kind of circle
around and there was a big buck that we.

Yeah.

Kind of tailing.

I got fresh on the tail of
this monster, so I was a little

bit, you know, jacked up.

Yeah, a little excited, a little excited.

And, uh, side to that and lessons
learned, and actually some of the things

I've even picked up on the podcast from
watching some of your guests, I know

a lot of the things that I did wrong
that day, um, a lot of things that I

could have done better that, um, led to
me getting medevaced outta the woods.

So I was in a real tough spot where,
um, I was kind on my hands and knees

crawl through some thick bush and
there were some, um, quite steep hills

with some quite steep little dropoffs.

And, you know, my truck, I carry a
first aid kit and a tourniquet and sure,

you know, um, all kinds of bandages.

And I have a little spot, uh, messenger.

So smart.

If I get caught.

It's in my truck.

All in your truck

in my

right, which is my, I had a, I had
enough to probably survive a week in

my pack, which I was only going out
for the day, but no way to message.

So I had my cell phone, okay.

And I had a Garin gps and I, uh,
probably halfway through the morning

and messaged my brother, said, Hey,
listen, I don't know if you can see where

I'm at, but I'm kind of getting close.

I'm gonna, this is my plan.

I'm gonna circle around this area, give
him my utm, and then kind of figured

out on my phone that I could service.

So we started sharing stuff, and
then I took a step and I kind of

cut my finger and I looked at my,
I was like, ah, you know what?

I'm really dumb.

I don't have anything
to bandage myself up.

So I put my gloves on and there
was a, a fairly steep ledge

right in front of me, and I.

Surveyed the area.

I took one step with my pack on, I
had my gun on my hand, and I just lost

my footing at the edge of this ledge.

And I just went face first over the ledge.

I was falling face worth face first.

My gun with my tangent data.

Yeah.

In this hand pack on it.

And I kind of cupped up as I was falling.

And it was a sharp rock at the
bottom, my leg hit the rock, um, and

snapped my tip and fib, uh, oh my.

So, so that's a good break.

And it was out to the skin.

So compound.

I, uh, I kind of fuzzed out for a
few minutes and I picked up my phone

and I could still get to my brother
and I'm like, I'm really messed up.

I broke my leg.

You gotta get to me.

And he's.

You know, you're joking, right?

Like he thought I was
calling cause I shot to tear.

Yeah.

Which I didn't.

Um, you know, I reached down, I grabbed
my leg and I flipped over and it

did the whole floppy, floppy and you
feel the bone sticking out through.

So I got my leg elevated,
I still had my pack on.

What

were you feeling, like getting like
signs of shock when that happened?

At that point I was good.

Okay.

Um, and I had taken, you know, I
take first cl first aid all the time.

Sure.

You're, I'm self aware.

Um, my brother was the, uh, the head
of the search and rescue for his

area wasn't the area that we were
in , but we were 500 meters apart.

It took him 45 minutes to get to me.

It was that thick.

Wow.

So I laid in the hole, broken leg.

Um, he got to me and I'm like,
listen, you gotta call 9 1 1.

You and my dad are not
getting me out of the spot.

So, long story short, I laid
there for about three hours,

um, before a, the first.

People that get to me were, uh,
a fire department, um, that had

kind of trudged their way in.

God loved them.

And, uh, they had a sled.

And, uh, they got me in the sled.

The paramedics kind of did
first level kind of support.

They got my leg in a, in a flat swap flap.

They got the flap, they got
the flappies down, but they.

, they couldn't administer any mets, um,
cuz they didn't have the qualifications.

So there was like 15, um, people
including police officers and the,

and the, uh, ambulance guys that drug
me out of the woods for three hours.

Unmetered.

When did the pain kick in?

Uh, soon as they bump

me into the sled.

Yeah.

So while you're waiting for
them, it was like, okay.

When I was

waiting for them, I was right and then
it got dark and I started to get cold

and I could feel like, all right, I know
that I'm, I've got signs of shock and

you know, I'm talking to my brother and
he's taking pictures of me and he's doing

what you would do as a brother would do.

As a brother would do.

Yeah, so it, it was, uh,
it was a bit surreal.

Um, it's like I come into the terms
with the fact that I'm laying in the

woods for what was a long time before my
brother even got there with a broken leg.

Scary knowing that all of my kit was
in the truck and I didn't have it.

And so, you know, I've
internalized that a lot since.

And, you know, you kinda
live that over and over.

And

so

lessons.

Lessons learned, not so heavy pack.

Right.

Take what I need.

Not more than I need.

Um, take my time.

Be a little bit more calculated.

You're rushing a bit.

Were you, um, I was, I was
trying to cover some ground.

Okay.

Because

that's tactically advancing

daylight.

Swiftly, daylight was, uh,
was, was becoming scarce.

It was in the afternoon,
so it was about two 30.

You know, I wanted to get
my eyes on that big block.

Yeah.

Um, and, uh, I wouldn't have left
home without my spot and I wouldn't

have, uh, left my tourniquet and
all my other first aid stuff, which

for some reason was in my truck.

And I decided to take
water and some other food.

And I had, I had a, a blanket and
other things, which I did use, but.

I had just some dumb mistakes
that could have really cost me.

And if I wouldn't have had cell
coverage, that would've been tough.

It'd have been worse.

You'd be crawling.

Yeah.

That wasn't gonna happen.

So about how far of a
fall was that, do you

think?

Uh, I'd say at about six, seven feet.

Um, so it wasn't crazy, but you know,
I watched my leg hit that rock and

this is like, I knew as soon as it
happened that, uh, something was up.

So the question

I'm sure everyone's asking,
how'd the scope Fair know what

it was?

Strangely, the, it was the thing that
I can remember thinking about as I

was falling, cuz you hear so many
stories of guys fallen with their

rifles and, you know, discharging.

Mm-hmm.

. So as I'm falling, I threw it to the side.

Okay.

Landed in some moss and there was
some rocks, there was some scratches.

It's since ran the battery test here.

still shooting it.

So it was, uh, it was our
three to 15 hunter model.

Uh, it was fine.

Wow.

It did way better than me.

, way better than you.

I needed a three to 15 of my leg.

So,

um, I'm, I'm looking through a
couple more of my notes here.

One of 'em I put down
was Cuts through Mirage.

Yep.

So there's a couple things
that we can talk about.

Yeah.

One of them is the resolution
and the clarity of the glass

that is in our tangent.

Thes, um, I think has an advantage
to, um, seeing through some

of that distortion of mirage.

Another product that we have
is, uh, polarizing lens for

the ocular end of the scope.

Okay, so like your sunglasses.

Yeah.

A polarizer on an optic
has the same impact.

You have to tune it to get it to polarize.

Yeah.

But helps cut down some
of the effective mirage.

Um, shooting on a bright, sunny day
over reflective surfaces like water,

snow helps reduce the glare, um, from
that to help you see your target better.

If you happen to be in a position
where you need to shoot or see through

glass, um, same as your glasses, it
takes away all the glare so you can

see to the target to the other side.

So, One is the coatings,
one is the resolution.

The other is, you know, pairing that with
a polarizer helps as a system to kind

of bring that mirage down a little bit.

It doesn't take it away, but it helps
you see your target a little bit better.

Interesting.

Uh, one thing, so tanex flip cap covers.

Yep.

Um, got a cool tour of the factory there.

Yep.

Looking at all the stuff you're doing and
they've got an interesting story as well.

But, uh, one thing that, uh, you guys have
is the ad's, the anti-reflective devices.

Yep.

Uh, can you tell me a little bit
about how these ad's work and,

uh, why somebody would want them?

Absolutely.

I think more people need
them than they know and.

Don't understand why they would want them.

So I, I'm happy to, to talk about
it cuz it's something that we

developed for the US military and
goes back 25 years and we developed

a proprietary coating called Exom.

And that Exom is put on the honeycomb,
uh, and it helps absorb light.

There's two things that we wanna
block, and that's the reflection

coming back from the scope that if
sunlight hits the glass right and

then comes straight back out is one.

So if you're in the military and
you're buried in the side of a hill,

you don't want to be discovered
because of cause you're flashing

back out the glint or the glare.

Right?

Yeah.

Um, and also the reflection that's kind
of come back off, it gets absorbed inside

of that and it, uh, it actually acts as
a, um, as a lens cover or, um, sun shade.

Sun shade.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Okay.

A two and a half inch honeycomb
works the same as a sun shade.

What it doesn't do is doesn't
block the barrel ma uh, mirage.

Right.

Because of the lens.

So if you're, if you're stacking that,
obviously we can't do the same thing,

but it has the same effect as a sun shade
helps if the angle comes in from the sun.

So kind of blocks off that glare
from your eye when you're, when

you're looking at your scope.

See I picked some of that up cuz I,
I just couldn't find a, um, an a r d

for a scope that I was looking for.

Yeah.

And uh, to just kind of screw in.

But, uh, Tenex had one that, uh, worked
with a scope and it works great and

I use it for, on a hunting rifle.

Excellent.

At, um, uh, you only have to be
looking right towards the sun.

Yeah.

Are they coming in one time and not
be able to see anything through it to

realize I could really use a solution
so I can actually see my target.

Absolutely.

And you know, one of
the other kind of just.

Maybe forgotten about.

Part is it actually protects the
glass in the front, so ah, yes.

If you're trudging through the bush
and you know, you, something happens,

the sticks hits your scope lens or,
or whatever it, uh, it's a small price

to pay to protect the coating on the

lens.

One thing I've heard people talk
about is light transmission, and

I know Elia's got thoughts on that
as well about, uh, the ideas of it.

But, um, uh, an a r d would change
the amount of light just cuz it's got

a, the honeycomb mash in front of it.

It's gonna change the amount
of light that come through.

Yep.

Um, when and where
would that be a concern?

Uh, or is it a psychological

thing?

It could be a little bit of both.

Yeah.

Um, it does, it does have an
impact on light transmission.

Okay.

For sure.

Okay.

It's very minimal, uh, in maybe the
very darkest edges of the evening.

There may be a, a couple percentage,
um, drops in transmission.

Uh, Very hard to see with the eye
and hard to measure in some cases.

So, uh, we do, we do build different sizes
and different thicknesses of the honeycomb

all have slight different impacts.

And the cool thing about the
honeycomb in all of the magnified

optics is you can't see it when you
put it on the front of the skull.

No, you can't.

So the focal point is out past where
the honeycomb is, and unless you're on

a true one x, you can get the imprint,
but it really doesn't impede, you

know, any of your shooting points.

So, uh, it it's pretty cool.

Very cool.

Well, from my perspective, I mean,
just if I'm, if I wanna ring steel

and it's a certain time of the day and
I'm in one of my lo locations, I like

to go to, unless I have a sunshade
or an a r d, I'm just not seeing it.

Yeah.

Uh, hunting.

Same thing out there.

It came up and I couldn't take
the shot, wasn't an ethical shot,

couldn't see the animal, so just
had to let it go by and I was like,

I've gotta find a solution for this.

And the a d worked

well.

So we all of our Tenex products.

Before you go to the next question,
just while we're on the topic,

all of them screw in all of them.

That's one of the things
that we do very well.

Right?

If we're gonna brag about something,
we'll brag about the fact that

we've got probably 5,000 fits
for almost every optical manufac

optical manufacturer on the planet.

Um, if we don't, we probably have
something that's pretty close.

Yes.

Uh, it's a pretty tough business to
have all the thread specs, the IDs,

the ods, and have all those fits.

We generally, we have a few models that
have the boots that go over that kind

of fit over the top on some different
scope models that don't have the

ability for a thread ring or right.

That op, so we try to fix something to
that, but I would say 98% of all of our

products for Tenex screw into the front
or have a cap that goes over the back.

Right.

They're really not a standard
in the optical industry for

sizing and thread specs.

And, which is crazy if you think about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so that's what we do well.

Um, you may not think that when you go to
our website and try to find your product

, but we're trying to get better at that.

So it, it's, uh, you know, it's
a, it's a work in progress.

Well, that's,

um, yeah.

I don't think most people think
about the fact that within the same

manufacturer in the same line, you can
have differing thread pitches or, uh,

IDs, ods, , diameter, outside diameter

even.

It's just by the same line,
same model, different.

Right.

Yeah.

And I don't think a lot of people would
really take that into consideration.

And the fact that you guys have been
just scrapping, carving out a niche in

an area, which probably really good in
making sure that, uh, uh, keep competition

out cuz who else wants to go through
all of that effort and expenditure?

Um, yeah, that's, uh, nothing
worthwhile ever comes easy does it?

True.

I mean,

and then, and we built the, we built
the products to be tactically tough.

Um, going back to the original days, and
I think I might have told you a story that

the original design for the US soldier
was that flip cover that was positively

attached to the scope was designed to
be grabbed in the open position so they

could stand up, pick up their gun in their
optic by the flip cover and run and move.

And, you know, we've never, we
tried not to lose sight of that.

Right.

Um, You know, sometimes being in
the right place at the right time or

setting yourself up so you're ready
when the right opportunity comes up.

That plays a big part in business,
saying yes to the right people and

making sure you're surrounded by the,
uh, same similar minded people who are

positive, who work in the right direction.

I remember listening to you speak before
about saying no to the wrong people.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

Yeah.

Um, it, uh, there's a lot of different
companies that have different business

practices and we wanna partner with
companies, distributors, dealers who share

our same beliefs, who, um, understand
what it takes to sell high end optic.

We never compete or we
don't compete on price.

Generally, I'd say we
never compete, but we.

Stand behind the product.

We understand that we are then
probably the most expensive.

In some cases, all of our products are
usually a little bit more expensive.

So having a partner that understands
the value and the quality is

extremely important to us.

We've learned a few hard lessons.

We've had to break
relationships because of that.

Mm-hmm.

Because they're not a good
extension of our company here,

or us as, as the way we want to
portray ourselves to our customers.

And that's always a tough place to be in
because, you know, hey, we're Canadians,

we wanna be friends with everyone.

We don't, we don't want to be
the, we don't wanna be that guy.

But sometimes you gotta be that guy and

you've built.

Business, our reputation on
saying, yes, can you do this?

Yes we can.

Yes.

Right.

Can you do cuz l can, yes, we can.

Right?

Yeah.

And at a certain point you gotta
turn around and look at, am I

saying yes to the right people?

Yeah.

Am I being a little bit more selective?

So something like that comes up.

Is that a big boardroom discussion and
everyone's waiting out the pros and cons?

Or do you guys kind of have bumpers
in line and just say, you know what,

this person's offside or this company's
offside outside of our bumpers

or parameters that we've put in.

Uh, we give them the opportunity
to correct it or they're gone.

Is that sort of as easily pragmatic as we,
we kind of know where our variables are?

I think in a lot of cases, yes.

Comes with experience.

It comes with hard lessons
learned, gut instinct.

There's a few things that.

Tip you off.

People go down a certain particular
path at the beginning of a relationship.

Not that you want to kind of paint
everybody with the same brush, but you

know, you kind of, if you've done it
enough and things kind of tweak you

in a different way, you kind of trust
your gut, you trust your instincts.

Yes.

I would say everyone would, if
they messed up, we'd give them

multiple chances to Correct.

Right, right.

Um, we wanna avoid getting to the
place where we have to correct

somebody if you can just
identify it right off the bat.

Right.

Yeah.

That's interesting then the
gut instinct portion of it.

Cuz people don't really talk about that in
business and you don't teach gut instinct.

Yeah.

I mean, the best predictor of future
performance is past performance.

Right.

So you and I, were gonna get
into a business relationship.

First thing we're gonna do is look
at each other's past performance.

Yep.

And we're gonna take a look at,
um, Uh, social media presence.

We're gonna take a look at like
personally, if I'm getting into business,

some, somebody over on British Columbia,
I get onto court services online

and if they have, I had one person
phone me up and he had this idea he

wanted to build a mall for guns and to
getting all these gun things together

and it'll have a range in there.

And, and we'll be integral to this
and we'll warning bells, bing,

bing, bing as this person's talked.

And, uh, they had run some very
successful businesses and presented with

a lot of flash and a lot of panache.

But my gut, something was just ringing,
so I got off the phone first thing I did.

Okay.

Google a name, use ent, open
source intelligence tools, right?

Absolutely.

Um, court services online had three
pages of civil suits of people suing this

person or the person suing them back.

And I'm like, thank you.

No, thank you.

Right?

But.

I mean, the proposal that this persons
coming out with, it sounded great.

And I think, um, I think that's
a difficult thing for people

in business to, um, to quell
their ambition of for success.

However, they deem success in their own
business to stop and regroup and say,

what's the macro of this look like?

What's the big picture
of this relationship?

What, what would be some, like, without
naming names, uh, sort of warning

signs that you would see, like if,
if you were to talk to old you, going

back a little bit prior to learning

something, I'd kick his butt.

We, we have a, a pretty wide variety
of, of customers and have had over

the multitudes of years, and we're
not looking for more, let's just

talk about our distribution channels.

We're not looking for more internet based.

Customers that just have no, uh, angle
except to sell it at a cheaper price.

Right?

A lot of our products, we maintain
map and we protect them, which

protects our distribution network.

And we're looking for good partners who
pay their bill know how to sell, um,

optics in the way that we would want
them sold and kind of extend our, um,

culture in relation ethos exactly into our
customer base or what potentially will be,

you know, their customer base and ours.

Things they say when they call us on
the phone, um, tougher on the phone

questions maybe that they're asking,
or things that they're looking for

without a relationship, without
understanding what we're looking for and

we don't know what they're looking for.

So, Going back to some key
questions maybe will tip us off.

And then we do the same thing.

We'll get online, we'll start
doing our, our background checks.

Maybe we'll give people a chance to
do stuff where, you know, it's kind of

cash in the barrel head, so to speak.

And we will, we will slide depending
on the personality of, of the person.

It's almost tougher on the phone.

And that's kind of what we've been lacking
over the last three years where we're

starving a little bit for more face to
face stuff where you can pick up on keys.

Right.

And the non-verbals, the non-verbals,
you meet somebody at a trade show,

probably more apt to get, uh,
involved with them if you have a

face-to-face discussion like we are now.

Mm-hmm.

harder on the phone.

We might be a little bit more
strict, but I don't know.

It just depends.

And how do you describe
the gut instinct but.

A few things kind of
add up over the years.

Put it all together.

You make a decision.

Sometimes you say yes,
sometimes you say no.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, when I'm talking to somebody and
everything they're saying sounds awesome.

It sounds like exactly what I think
somebody would think I would want to hear.

Yeah.

Okay.

Alarm bells are going off, right?

What's up?

I always just, for me, I just like
back up, back up, back up next.

Sure.

You got one fellow I work with
and he does that to me sometimes.

He's like, I'm just doing it.

Cause I know how much it, he's
like, I don't wanna hear this.

Um, the, um, and how a person
will treat others who can't do

anything for them is the one key
indicator that I've found as well.

If they're, uh, yeah.

You know, just seeing how they, if
you're going out for food and they

treat somebody in a certain way that.

that they're not treating you?

Um, I, I,

that's a warning sign.

Big time.

Yeah.

That's a warning sign.

Yeah.

I'm with you on that one.

Is there anything else we
should be chatting about?

You know, I, I've gone through
a bunch of the questions.

There are some basic, uh, q and A on
upkeep of the, uh, the scopes and,

uh, and, and, uh, you know, common
questions that you'd probably get asked.

Um, are there any things that maybe
I've missed or that we should be

touching on?

That's a good question.

We have talked a lot.

Um, we have.

. You know, I think, uh, uh, a desire
and focus in our company to evolve

and to grow our customers that are
listening now, you know, stick with us.

You know, if you're waiting on
a scope, we'll get it to you,

Yeah.

Um, yeah, we want to,
we wanna be innovative.

We want to be thought leaders within,
you know, without being too fatty.

Right?

Fatty, fatty

faddish, fatty faddish, whatever.

Uh, we're, we're professional company
and it's based on, you know, um,

professional shooters and we're
very serious about our business.

I like to have fun.

We, I think we're a fun group of people,
but you know, we're pretty serious about

this business and we're pretty serious
about, um, making sure that we maintain

the standards that we set out to achieve.

And we do have a lot of brands.

We do have different
variations of products.

We have a lot of great relationships
with our OEMs, which in one case, they're

our customers and on other cases could
be considered, you know, competition.

But it's such a small world
and we really value that.

And we never wanna damage, we'll
never sacrifice the business over the

relationships that we've built over the
last, you know, 10, 20 years in cases

like brilliant, small, small company.

And, and this industry as a whole
is a fantastic place to work for

me, for a lot of the people here.

I grew up in the outdoors.

I love to fish, I love to hunt.

Um, I like this culture, but I also
like everybody else in the industry

who, I think I might have said this
before, they get up every day and

they just grind it out and Right.

They want to, they want to,
they want the same goals.

They want to be in the same place.

Helping people out, providing good
products, increasing, you know, the, the

capabilities, either down range or in com.

Competition, just refining stuff.

Um, making our processes better,
uh, evolving our products, making

those clicks a little bit, click
here, bit more clicking, you

know, a little bit more clicky.

The clicks.

Clicks, quickies, clicks.

Improving.

Our trade market might already be,
I dunno, , you know, just stuff

that makes us more efficient.

Right.

And it's for everything.

It's like when a customer goes to
our website, I'm really concerned

that it's complicated and sometimes I
question, man, I wouldn't buy from me.

Right?

Like, it seemed like it's, it's.

It, there's a lot of information there,
and we're trying to make it easy.

So that's a constant
battle we hope to approve

on.

That's a struggle that so many
companies have, will have.

I mean, if you talk to a, uh, software
developer, an engineer designer, Hey,

I'm a full stack developer, right?

Yeah.

They're gonna talk a very
different language and what the

end user is gonna want to see.

That's the way they have
their UX experts, right?

Yeah.

The people that, in, like from an
engineer's perspective, they can

produce a best quality product and,
but is that being presented in the

best way for the, for the end user?

And some places do the other side
and they will present in the absolute

best way, but maybe, maybe what they
got behind them isn't gonna be quite,

uh, quite at the same level, right?

Yeah.

And

I think the way that, you know, from
an operational perspective inside, we

could make it, um, Different, that's
easy for us, but it would be like almost

incomprehensible for our customers.

And so now it's, it's a, it's a process.

Like we build everything almost.

It's not just in time cuz we
carry all the inventory, but

it's gotta go into a build cycle.

And I'm talking specifically
tenne bricks, right?

So the tenne brick customer orders, a flip
cover ANR reflection device, whatever.

Yeah.

That gets through the
system into the build cycle.

Well, there might be 7,000 parts
in front of that one customer's

order and takes two to three weeks.

So what we need to do
is get better at that.

So there's a lot of things we
want people to have, our cust have

our products in a timely fashion.

Companies like Amazon, other just
in Time, which, you know, the FBA

fulfillment where I, by Amazon Yeah.

Have a product that order
like almost the next day.

Yeah.

There's an expectation of
online, um, procurement that

that's what it's gonna be.

And unfortunately, you know, for
us, we're not there, but we have

a goal to be closer to that.

Well, that's, as one developer
actually I was talking with, with

said, everybody judges their user
experience or customer experience based

on the best possible thing out there.

Yeah.

When people look at a, an online
store, they're comparing you to Amazon,

which has millions and billions of
dollars to be able to, uh, perfect.

And see what everyone's like,
demographic and psychographic and all

of their user habits and all the rest.

So it, it's tough for these
small and medium size businesses.

It can be tough for the big ones too.

Uh,

yeah, for sure.

And, uh, another challenge, not only
just for us, Getting the customers to

find the part, like when you went to
find the part and the fit for your scope.

Hopefully that was a good experience.

Yeah.

We also have a challenge with our dealers,
uh, who want to carry our products.

So imagine a store that would have to have
a shelf that had 5,000 parts on it, right?

It's not gonna happen, right.

So we've struggled a lot with
that in the past, and it's very,

it's very difficult for customers
to get the stuff that they need.

Having on the shelf, some of our
competitors, um, it's a little

bit easier to fit and model stuff.

Ours, it's impossible.

So our best path forward now has been
to get our dealers if they want to.

Offer Tenex products to their customers.

We can get them set up on our
website as kind of a dealer account.

Mm.

They have access to all of the fit guides,
all of the models they can buy at our

dealer pricing directly on our website.

It's easy for them.

Yeah.

Easier for them.

Cuz then we don't have to manage
a whole bunch of infrastructure

to get, keep them up to date.

And then it's easy for us to, cuz we can
kind of get that into the cycle quicker.

So.

Yeah.

Very cool.

And I, and the other part that really
kind of struck out, stuck out to me

was the, uh, uh, the relationships.

How you're saying you don't want to,
why would we burn this relationship?

Those are super important.

Honestly, anybody listening to this,
I know we've covered ga I know we're

talking about, uh, objects, but
we're also talking about a company.

We're talking about being an entrepreneur.

We're talking to Bill lessons
learned on a hunting trip.

Right.

I mean there, there's a kind of a
wide gamt what we're talking about

here, but I can't say it enough.

Business, it's not personal,
it's just business.

People say that, right.

I, I don't know, maybe, maybe somebody
out there who's much better at

business than I am can, uh, can have
a compelling argument to the contrary.

But in my opinion, all
business is personal.

Yeah.

It's all based on relationships.

Those relationships take time to
establish, which are based on trust.

You betray that trust, you
betray the relationship.

It affects the business, and
that's from my experience.

The core of

business.

In every situation that we've been
in a downturn or we've run into a

rough patch in this company, it's the
relationships with our distribution

and our customers and our OEMs
that have seen us through that.

Right.

Every single time.

Yeah.

And it's always, it's, it's not
personal, it's just business.

When things are going
good on one side, right.

You just wait till the other side
of the coin comes and it will come.

And we hope

that

we never forget that when the
people that you know help you when

you need it and you know when you
don't and they're always there.

It's those, yeah.

For me that's super important.

Awesome.

Trevor, thank you very much for
being on the Silvercore Podcast.

I thoroughly enjoyed my time with you,
with the company and, and recording this.

Thank you.

It's been an honor.