'Books beg to be discussed'

Why are book clubs so transformative, and can they change the world?

When we read a book we love, no matter how outlandish or challenging it is, we recognise in it the way we believe the world works. And that is profoundly affirming. It reassures you that your life has a place, no matter what mangled shape it’s in. And if you can share that with others, and talk about what that book means for each of you, you step back into the real world a little renewed, a little stronger, and a little more equipped to change it.

Arthur’s guest in this episode has seen this often, first-hand, as bibliotherapy: Dr Anderson P. Smith works with book clubs and writers who are in or have been in prison, and has studied the profound effect that reading circles can have on people who are rebuilding their lives. And his insights on reading, reflection, and action extend to anyone in the business of making books or changing minds.

What is How Books Are Made?

A podcast about the art and science of making books. Arthur Attwell speaks to book-making leaders about design, production, marketing, distribution, and technology. These are conversations for book lovers and publishing decision makers, whether you’re crafting books at a big company or a boutique publisher.

Arthur Attwell: 00:03

Hello, and welcome to How Books Are Made. A podcast about the art and science of making books. I'm Arthur Attwell.

Arthur Attwell: 00:22

You and I are here because books mean something to us. In fact, I don't think anyone gets into professional bookmaking without a deep connection to what books have meant to us personally. Books we love tell us something about ourselves that we enjoy believing. We recognize in them, not necessarily ourselves, but the way we believe the world works. And that is profoundly affirming.

Arthur Attwell: 00:53

I'm sure I was there when my son, maybe a year or two old, first recognized himself in a mirror. It didn't blow his mind. He didn't exclaim in astonishment or laugh at the quite remarkable notion that it's possible at all to see yourself. Rather, he just chuckled a little as if he liked this person and wanted to have a conversation with them. And if it were possible, which it isn't, of course, for you to trace a path back book by book to the first book you read in which you saw yourself, I think you'd feel that way too.

Arthur Attwell: 01:39

It's not an earth shattering experience. It feels more like relief than surprise because it reassures you that the world really does work the way you feel it works, and your life has a place in it no matter what mangled little shape it's in. Now I'm no expert in bibliotherapy. I just suspect there's something powerful at work here. Someone who actually is an expert in bibliotherapy is my guest today, Doctor Anderson P. Smith.

Arthur Attwell: 02:16

I've wanted to talk to Anderson for years ever since I first heard about his work with book clubs and writers who are in prison. And in our research for this conversation, and as I spoke to Anderson, I got to learn more about his personal connection to books and what they can do for people. Anderson P. Smith works at Columbia University, where he received his PhD and where he creates programs on ethics and compliance for researchers. What we'll be talking about today is his work in social justice and literature, especially with book clubs and writers who were or are incarcerated. He has been a teaching artist in spoken word poetry and writing at schools and correctional facilities and has contributed to several books, which we'll talk about.

Arthur Attwell: 03:08

He's also a founding board member at the Justice Arts Coalition, a network and a resource for people creating art in and around the criminal legal system. Anderson, it is so wonderful to be talking to you today. Thanks so much for joining me.

Anderson P. Smith: 03:24

Wonderful speaking with you as well, Arthur. Thank you for having me.

Arthur Attwell: 03:27

So you were born and raised in the Bronx. And to a South African like me, famous places like the Bronx are more metaphors than actual neighborhoods. And the Bronx to me signals as well that you've seen and learned some hard things about life that many people don't get to see and learn. So what does it mean to you to say you were born and raised in the Bronx?

Anderson P. Smith: 03:49

Well, to be honest with you, Arthur, the Bronx has always been fundamental to my life. I, you know, I was born there, went to school there. To me, the Bronx was my whole life. My family wasn't very rich, and we weren't very poor either. It was only when I started traveling alone at about, you know, 13 to 15 years old, you know, to Manhattan and the surrounding boroughs that I saw more of, you know, just the surrounding of New York City.

Anderson P. Smith: 04:18

But as we all know, the world is much more larger than what we saw. But, you know, the bright lights, right? The busy streets, the hustle bustle of the city, that's really what drew me and opened my eyes to different ways of living, cultures and everything. I grew up at 1520 Sedgwick Avenue, which is known as the birthplace of hip hop. To me, right, it was just home.

Arthur Attwell: 04:41

Yeah.

Anderson P. Smith: 04:42

It was just home. Right? But to others, it was a place where, you know, people could be creative and express themselves. This made me realize that sometimes we don't see the importance of where you're from until others point it out. So although I'm not really into baseball, I understand the importance of landmarks like you Yankee Stadium. Right?

Anderson P. Smith: 05:05

Sure.

Anderson P. Smith: 05:05

And people like Babe Ruth. And I also live near Roberto Clemente State Park. Right?

Anderson P. Smith: 05:11

And even though, again, I'm not a big baseball fan, I know that Roberto Clemente was definitely a groundbreaking Latin American baseball star in the United States. And these things have helped me to appreciate the rich history and culture of the Bronx.

Arthur Attwell: 05:27

Yeah. I visited only once, and it was such a thrill to see these places that I consider the iconic places in so many people's own life stories.

Anderson P. Smith: 05:36

We take it so so for granted, you know. We take it that we take it all for granted because, again, it was just, I didn't see it the way the world saw it.

Arthur Attwell: 05:44

Yep.

Anderson P. Smith: 05:44

I just saw it as as simply home, a place that, you know, we navigated.

Arthur Attwell: 05:49

Yep. So here we are today, and we wanna talk about book clubs. I am fascinated by book clubs. And as a publisher, a book publisher myself, they've been a big part of the way I see the landscape of publishing.

Anderson P. Smith: 06:01

Mhmm.

Arthur Attwell: 06:01

In 2022, you wrote a paper with Jody Polleck. It was published in Dialogues and Social Justice. And I want to read a quote from that. You wrote, "Books beg to be discussed. Through reading texts and sharing our understandings with others, we can create spaces that promote imagination and connection for healing and social justice."

Anderson P. Smith: 06:24

Absolutely.

Arthur Attwell: 06:24

And I love that you say "books beg to be discussed", and we'll get to the connection to healing as well. What is it about books that makes them beg to be discussed?

Anderson P. Smith: 06:34

Well, absolutely. Again, , you know, I wrote the statement, so I definitely wholeheartedly agree. But, you know, books do invite discussion. And by, you know, exchanging our interpretations, whether in real time conversations or through delayed communications, we foster environments that nurture creativity and interpersonal connections. And these discussions can become powerful tools for healing and advocating for social justice.

Anderson P. Smith: 07:02

So by sharing diverse perspectives and experiences, we deepen our understanding and empathy, which are crucial for fostering inclusivity and driving societal change. There's this quote that I love reciting by Dr. Rudine Bishop. Right? And she explains the various pathways to which readers could experience literature. And she says that, "Books are sometimes windows offering views of the world that may be real or imagined, familiar or strange."

Anderson P. Smith: 07:32

Then she says that these windows are often sliding glass doors and readers have only to walk through an imagination to become part of whatever worlds has been created or recreated by the author. But then she says, "When lighting conditions are just right, however, a window can also be a mirror, and literature transforms human experiences and reflects it back to us. And in that reflection, we can see our own lives and experiences as part of a larger human experience. Therefore, reading then becomes a means of self affirmation, and readers often seek their mirrors in books." So we gotta talk about it.

Anderson P. Smith: 08:10

We gotta live it, and and we gotta share it. It's not meant to stay on the page.

Arthur Attwell: 08:15

Absolutely. It's always fascinated me that reading a book is such a... it's not lonely, it's solo. It's a very individual connection with the book. And yet the minute you lift your eyes from the book, you have this urge to speak about it with the first person you see. It's a wonderful thing and to actually use that as a tool, so interesting.

Arthur Attwell: 08:34

You've done quite a lot of work on tackling racism using literature. A few years ago, you facilitated a programme called the Dexter Community Schools Culturally Responsive Book Club Initiative. I love that phrase, "culturally responsive". And you've also spoken elsewhere on using literature to tackle racism.

Arthur Attwell: 08:51

Can you tell me more about what that looks like using literature specifically to address racism?

Anderson P. Smith: 08:56

Sure. I think that the way I could really illustrate this point is by just explaining the workings of the Dexter Community Culturally Responsible Book Club Initiative. Really, it was just a way to demonstrate the demands for a school community to critically analyse and address racism through literature.

Anderson P. Smith: 09:14

So for 3 months, our participants engaged in 3 book asynchronous and synchronous experiences focused on literacy and socioeconomic development that promoted diversity, equity, and inclusion. So at its very core, I wanted participants to consider their own identities and visions for a world at both individual and global levels. And I wanted them to have a heightened sense of diverse point of views and the ability to express opinions constructively, Right. I constructed the theoretical framework for this particular initiative, and I drew it from concepts that I covered in my dissertation that I sent to you over the weekend.

Anderson P. Smith: 09:52

And I'll just kinda just state it here, really, it was built on 3 kind of tenets. Louise Rosenblatt's transactional theory, that's the relationship between the reader and the text. Lave and Wenger's situational learning theory, LPP, that's about co-constructing knowledge. And then there's also Paulo Freire's theory of praxis, action and reflection. And I'll go a little bit further on these 3 different terms because they're essential to everything that I do, and I draw from all these theorists and how they view things in all of my work.

Anderson P. Smith: 10:25

So, again, you know, going back into that transactional theory, reader response theory, it focuses on active participation of the reader and the text with this relationship. And I argue that it's unavoidable. So as readers are engaging with the text, that reader, we're bringing what's called our designer luggage. That is to say the reader's past, their present, their age, their race, religion, their culture. And thus, the reader's comprehension of a text is understood in the context of their life.

Anderson P. Smith: 10:56

Right? Then there's Lave and Wenger, right? And their assertion that any form of knowledge always lies in the power to renegotiate the meanings of their past and future in constructing the meaning of the present circumstances. So that, in being in dialogue with others, not only allows a person to have their thoughts validated, but also gives them an opportunity to learn from others in ways that we could construct identity and reimagine ways to apply what they have learned.

Anderson P. Smith: 11:31

One of the most significant parts of this theory, it's certainly true that learning is enmeshed in the process of identity construction. And then finally, there's a powerful phrase theory of praxis, right? That the act of reading alone is certainly not it. Right?

Anderson P. Smith: 11:48

We have to actively apply our understanding as the type of praxis that this particular initiative was concerned with itself within. Freire defines praxis as "action and reflection directed at the structures to be transformed". And the structures to be transformed in this initiative were the participants themselves, or rather their thought processes as they exist in the world. And again, this requires active metacognition, and that's neither thought alone or action alone, but it's certainly a combination of the two. And as we all know, inward transformation precedes outward change.

Anderson P. Smith: 12:26

Therefore, one would have to exemplify the transformation that they wish for their surroundings. And then Freire would argue that transformation must therefore begin with the self. So over the period of 3 months, we read books like 'Whistling Vivaldi... How Stereotypes Affect Us and What We Can Do With It', 'White Fragility', and 'Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man' by Emmanuel Acho. Those were the three texts, and it was certainly a transformative experience for these people in that district.

Arthur Attwell: 12:56

That's fascinating. You've spoken a lot in your work, moving from, especially drawing from your work in the book clubs and through the initiative like that, on a concept that you call Bibliotherapy. And I wanted to spend some time talking about that. But first, I wanted to just set a little bit of a scene for those who don't know you yet. You've generously shared before the impact of your own childhood work.

Arthur Attwell: 13:23

And in an interview for the Justice Arts Coalition, you wrote, "Not only was my father incarcerated in the late 1980s, ripping his presence from my life at five years old, but he was also deported back to Jamaica after serving an 18 to 25 year sentence. I met my father for the first time since his incarceration in 2013. I have also seen how the system can break a spirit and make someone feel less human." And I can't imagine the challenges that you and your mother had to face during that time. In the midst of it, before we talk about bibliotherapy, I wanted to know a bit more about your journey.

Arthur Attwell: 14:02

What led you to a life in literature and research?

Anderson P. Smith: 14:06

Well, interestingly enough, it wasn't even my father, right? It was my sister, and my sister getting incarcerated. That's what really struck for me. My father, I felt that he was already older and, you know, he made his mistakes and lived.

Anderson P. Smith: 14:22

But then again, I got to see the effects of what the absence of a parent does to siblings. Right? I turned out the way I did because I wanted to see better for my society. When my sister was incarcerated at Beacon, she was tried as an adult, even though she was a minor at the time. That's what really hit me.

Anderson P. Smith: 14:41

And I was always creative. I wrote poetry in my spare time. I performed poetry and I've spoken and done so many things, but I didn't know how to teach poetry or creative writing for that matter. But I knew that if my sister could share her story, if so many people could share their stories of what they have gone through, then perhaps they could inspire others, you know, through this vicarious experience that reading provides, to live their life a little bit differently. Right?

Anderson P. Smith: 15:12

Sometimes that vicarious experience can really save a life. So I got my 1st master's degree from Manhattanville College, my MFA in creative writing. And that's where I learned how to teach writing. From there, I created a course on methods and mystery. And I started to teach in prison through Rehabilitation Through the Arts, which is a whole other story in itself.

Anderson P. Smith: 15:35

But I started to teach at a medium security prison in New York. The course that I had developed while I was in Manhattanville, and then once I graduated, they allowed me to start to teach because, you know, you get your MFA, that's terminal degree. And then there, I kind of started to craft my teaching style for writing and with the hopes of, you know, helping my sister tell her story better. And then from there, I said, you know, my students could really benefit from, you know, I was one of the first Black people to teach in prison, right, through this organization. And I knew that what my presence meant to to see me in that space, especially, you know, in a certain light.

Anderson P. Smith: 16:19

So I knew that, you know, going back to school to go to get my doctorate. I received my PhD in English education as you mentioned earlier. I went back from my doctorate, ultimately, because I wanted the men and women that I was teaching to be taught by the best. And I wanted to be at the top of my game and also, just as an an educator. So when I was doing my research, I said, you know, "How do I show people the power that they have?

Anderson P. Smith: 16:47

How do I reinforce their identity?" Just to build them up strong. Because if they're told that they're nothing and they serve this sentence that was imposed to them by society, that society kind of, you know, says that this is the requirement for a particular crime. Right? And then then they come out after serving the time that says, hey, this is you serve this time, then all is forgiven.

Anderson P. Smith: 17:12

We're gonna release you. For them to come out, and it's almost as if they're still criminals. It's almost dehumanizing from that aspect. So they needed to kind of be uplifted. It's incredibly powerful for them to get up every day to to continue to live in a world where they're not really, really fully accepted.

Anderson P. Smith: 17:32

And I knew that my sister was gonna be faced with that kind of reality. But I also wanted to give her the tools to empower herself to pull herself up because we can't do it for her. She has to kinda pull herself up and see herself as more. So in essence, that's why I started my research, and I did my research, which I'll talk about in a moment. But that's in essence, the origin story of how I came to this topic and and why I give so much to to social justice.

Anderson P. Smith: 18:02

Because truly, these people are gonna come home, and what world are they coming home to? And I also recognize in teaching in these spaces that we are truly, all of us, we are truly one mistake away from being in the same place as them. Like, not even trading places, but just one step, one choice, one anything decision from being exactly where they were.

Arthur Attwell: 18:24

Extraordinary. Yeah. In 2023, and I assume this is the same time you're doing the research for your PhD, you presented at the World Literacy Summit, a talk I watched online titled Digital Bibliotherapy Rehumanization from Incarceration. And in it, you presented videos of some of your Book Club participants speaking about their lives and their readings and sharing their thoughts about the books they had read together, those books begging to be discussed. And I found those videos so powerful.

Arthur Attwell: 18:59

For those who haven't seen it, can you explain a bit about what you mean by bibliotherapy, and particularly what that process looked like for some of your participants?

Anderson P. Smith: 19:08

Absolutely. Let me tell you, the World Literacy Summit in Oxford, that was an amazing, amazing time. But I have the full video on my site, anderson-p-smith-dot-com, if anyone wants to check it out.

Arthur Attwell: 19:22

Thanks. We'll put that in the show notes.

Anderson P. Smith: 19:23

No problem. The term bibliotherapy is an amalgam of the Greek words biblio and therapeio. Literally, it translates to a word describing the therapeutic value derived from books. Now it's certainly fitting that the term has a Greek origin since the Greek philosopher, Aristotle, building upon the work of Plato, used reading to heal his emotions.

Anderson P. Smith: 19:45

Right? And then another Greek philosopher, Celsius, used text to improve his ability to produce sound judgment. So the use of bibliotherapy can can be traced back to United States in the late 1800 with Doctor Benjamin Rush, a physician. He prescribed Bible scriptures to his patients. Following, Crothers coined the term in 1920. You know, bibliotherapy gained additional spokesman, such as the author John Bangs.

Anderson P. Smith: 20:13

And according to Lynn Eastman, Bangs wrote if he was a doctor, he would make books part of his medicum and prescribe them to his patients according to their needs. So in my study, I gathered data from 11 participants. These are all formerly incarcerated people from across the United States. I gathered data through online surveys, asynchronous phone conversation interviews, asynchronous online book discussions, and a synchronous focus group at the end. So what I did was we had a book club, essentially, with people with criminal conviction histories over 2 months.

Anderson P. Smith: 20:51

And we read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, and we discussed it. Right? Both synchronously and asynchronously. And because we were in different time zones, I needed to come up with a way for us to discuss the text, but still make it to still build this synergy. So I used the platform, Flip, which allows for asynchronous recordings and views.

Anderson P. Smith: 21:13

We use Zoom, and I also provided each of the participants with the tablets with the book preloaded onto it and access to these platforms. So this way, they can have ease. A lot of these people never had tablets.

Arthur Attwell: 21:27

Right.

Anderson P. Smith: 21:28

They were recently released. So I think, you know, even just working a Kindle was a learning curve for a lot of people. But ultimately, what I discovered at the end of this study was 4 thematic elements. That was metacognition, agency, community, and increased self esteem amongst all of the participants. And again, I'm gonna go back to those terms, you know, the transactional theory and praxis, and legitimate proof of participation.

Anderson P. Smith: 21:55

Now, observe, you know, through a transactional lens, the participants had an opportunity to evaluate their thoughts and make metacognitive contributions to each other in a situated learning environment. And certainly, this led to the development of a supportive community that not only increased the participant's self esteem of each participant, right, but it also validated their unique contributions. And it also enabled them to reflect and consider outside perspectives as they existed outside of a digital space in the real world. And now this, in itself, it invoked a mental praxis necessary to affirm that they too have a purpose in life, not as objects, but as human beings. Now the findings of my study, it suggests that self reflection and resilience are not fixed, but rather the development of these characteristics is ongoing and emerging through technology and online literacy practices.

Anderson P. Smith: 22:50

And my study was about people reimagining themselves as something more than just person with a criminal conviction history.

Arthur Attwell: 22:59

I loved in some of those videos where the participants, for instance, would speak about a particular character and what they had done in the story or a particular reflection the character had had and then relate it to themselves, often in ways that I wouldn't have thought because I just have a different background and a different perspective, and yet added so much to my understanding of the book as well and just is such a fascinating insight and could see layers of self awareness emerging in people as they were talking about the characters in the story. That must have been quite thrilling for you to see that happening.

Anderson P. Smith: 23:29

Yeah. Absolutely. As they were reading the books, I just imagined my sister having this book in front of her, and what it could have done for her, right, even before her period of incarceration. But I just think about truly how that vicarious experience can really help a person cope with whatever they are going through.

Arthur Attwell: 23:51

And it's not just the book itself that's doing the work. It's the discussing the book. I find that so interesting.

Anderson P. Smith: 23:56

Yes.

Arthur Attwell: 23:56

You're discussing the book that really brings the healing home.

Anderson P. Smith: 23:59

Yes. And the the various perspectives, again, it goes back to that concept of how we are approaching the text. We come to text with our own history. Right? But when we share our histories or interpretations with another individual, those experiences and that exchange of information can create almost a new understanding for both individuals.

Arthur Attwell: 24:23

I remember many years ago, I watched Yann Martel talk about his book, 'The Life of Pi'. And for those who know The Life of Pi, there's —don't wanna give too many spoilers— but there's a scene late in the book that gets very surreal, really. Anyway, it was at an event when Martel was speaking, and a boy of about 12 stood up and asked Martel, "What is that scene about?" And Martel replied, "It is about whatever you want it to be."

Arthur Attwell: 24:46

And at the time, I was so disappointed with his reply because I thought, oh, this poor 12 year old boy wants an answer. But it's taken reflection since then to think, yeah, you know, Martel's not only entitled to say that, but he's making an important point to the boy about reading. It's that just because he's the author doesn't mean he gets to decide what you get out of the book.

Anderson P. Smith: 25:05

Exactly. Exactly.

Arthur Attwell: 25:07

In your work with writers in prison, you've also contributed to books on the topic. And one of those is a beautiful book called The Sentences That Create Us: Crafting a Writer's Life in Prison. I got myself a copy and have been reading it in preparation for this conversation.

Anderson P. Smith: 25:23

Yes. Thank you.

Arthur Attwell: 25:25

And it's such a wonderful book. And it's so much more than only crafting a writer's life in prison. For me, it's just had such lovely exercises and insights into being a writer. And your chapter of writing prompts, you've written these prompts to trigger some writing work.

Anderson P. Smith: 25:44

Yeah.

Arthur Attwell: 25:44

And you open with a quote from Paulo Freire, who you've mentioned before, and particularly his book Pedagogy of the Oppressed, which is one of my favorite books. It's just an extraordinary, extraordinary book.

Anderson P. Smith: 25:54

Anybody that hasn't read it, they need to just read this book.

Arthur Attwell: 25:58

You know, we say there are must reads, but, honestly, if there's a list of must reads, this is at the top of that. It is a completely transformative way of seeing the way we see ourselves and the way we see ourselves in relationships with others, and particularly the way we see power relationships in the world. You've quoted from Ferrer elsewhere too, and you mentioned him earlier. I'm curious to know, were there particular perspectives that really guide your work with writers and poets and readers from Freire's work?

Anderson P. Smith: 26:24

Yeah. I always go back to this quote that "liberation is practice, the action of reflection of men and women upon their worlds to transform it". What it says to me is that it's truly up to individuals to change the world around them. I think that oftentimes, we think of ourselves as insignificant. Right?

Anderson P. Smith: 26:44

But I think that social media shows people. Now, if there's anything I pray social media for, is the power to bridge communities, and the power of platform and voice. And sometimes, you could say something and it could feel as if it truly isn't significant, but there's so many other people that agree with your perspective that it can really make waves in oceans and really change things for the better, even for the worse. Right? Great power, great responsibility.

Anderson P. Smith: 27:20

Right? It also brings in the question of freedom of speech and can we truly say things because our words have real consequences to everything that's happening. So for me, it's getting individuals to think not only individually now, right? But we have to also think globally of what we do.

Anderson P. Smith: 27:43

And I think that the more a reader is informed, the more I wanna say profound, but sometimes it doesn't come out profound. But the more people read, the more informed they are, or the better informed they are. Really all depends on what they're reading, right? And of course, on what they choose to consume.

Anderson P. Smith: 28:03

And how, of course, how they choose to interpret it, which is why recognising how we come to a text is that much more important. It brings to life our biases. And sometimes we have to be very, very careful of how we choose to display our bias. So it speaks to the responsibilities that we all have as individuals in our particular worlds.

Arthur Attwell: 28:28

Yeah. It's worth dwelling again on that quote you read. Liberation, which really is something we will prize, liberation is a praxis. And as I see, that's a thing you do every day actively, the action and reflection of men and women upon their world in order to transform it. And that action and reflection, that pairing is so important as well.

Arthur Attwell: 28:49

And that's really the work of reading and then discussing. And, that's how we transform the world.

Anderson P. Smith: 28:56

And we take it a step farther, right? Read, discuss, and then apply. Active metacognition. As they say, knowledge is not knowledge unless if it is applied.

Arthur Attwell: 29:07

I didn't mention in my notes in advance, but it occurs to me now. At the moment, I know that students at the University of Columbia, where you're based, have become very active speaking about Palestine.

Anderson P. Smith: 29:18

Yes.

Arthur Attwell: 29:19

That is the work of practice of action and reflection of of men and women.

Anderson P. Smith: 29:23

It is.

Anderson P. Smith: 29:24

Do you have reflections on that from where you're situated?

Anderson P. Smith: 29:28

Well, what I wanna say is that institutions like Columbia were built on freedom of speech regardless. Right? And educators, our role in society is to promote thought leaders, and great change comes when people voice whatever it is. And I think that we see so many conflicting messages, be it in the media or even the hypocrisies that this— what this whole situation has done is it has certainly exposed hypocrisies within the institutions. Regardless of whatever is being discussed, all these different types of concepts that are being discussed and the message is said, it's twofold.

Anderson P. Smith: 30:16

It's saying, I want you to speak out, but if it goes against what the masses or the people that are funding, then I don't want you to speak out. So it's almost like it's a two tone thing. And I think that, in essence, people should be allowed to be in discourse with one another, and people should be able to do that respectfully and recognise it, and also with opening ears. I think that everyone has something to learn from all these situations, because you know what? Everyone is paying attention to it, and everyone's paying attention to how it's handled.

Anderson P. Smith: 30:51

So I can't speak on the rightness or wrongness of particular actions of our administrators. I can only speak to the the point of what institutions are supposed to do, and they're supposed to promote critical thinking. And sometimes critical thinking makes people say certain things, and now it's our jobs as educators to direct or redirect an understanding, or point them to certain instances in history to see where there have been similar conflicts, and how those things were resolved. But I think that it starts with a conversation. It starts with that dialogue.

Anderson P. Smith: 31:29

It starts with not silencing people for however they feel or whatever they think. And I think that that's why books, right, they do a great job of that vicarious experience, allowing us to play out certain scenarios to see, Right, what would happen? That's why reading is so much important. I would even argue that's why fiction is important: because it allows us to play out certain realities and extremes, if you will, of what would happen if you silence people.

Anderson P. Smith: 32:01

How people rise up out of silence, how people rise up out of violence. So, we just have a responsibility. And I hope that those that are in those places understand that we all have a fundamental right to our voices. And when we try to silence those voices, that's when things happen.

Anderson P. Smith: 32:24

So people should be allowed to express themselves, but do it in a way that it is respectful to communities, to individuals, to basic human rights.

Arthur Attwell: 32:33

For sure. Thank you. As we begin to wrap up, I wanted to ask a little bit about the making of books. You know, I myself have been a book publisher and I work with a lot of publishers and I work with a lot of people who are involved in all different parts of the bookmaking process. For people who make books, if we care about what our books do in the world and what they make possible, what should we be thinking about and prioritizing when we select and edit and promote books that can unlock the kind of action and reflection that you've seen people do, and that you'd like to see more of?

Anderson P. Smith: 33:08

Yeah. I mean, for those that are involved with creating, selecting, editing, you know, just promoting books in particular, there are several things that I think that should be considered. Namely, you know, diverse voices, right? Prioritising the inclusion of diverse authors and narratives. And this means actively seeking out and supporting voices from underrepresented groups such as people of color, LGBTQ+ individuals, and those from various socioeconomic backgrounds. And ensuring that these voices are heard is crucial for fostering a richer, more inclusive literary landscape. Right? Authentic representation. That's the next thing that should be focused on. Focusing on authentic and nuanced portrayals in narratives, avoiding stereotypes and tokenism by working closely with authors to ensure that their stories are told with integrity and depth. You know, again, this may involve employing sensitivity readers, right, consultants who can offer insight into authenticity. Another thing that that we need to focus on is accessibility, right?

Anderson P. Smith: 34:16

Can we make books accessible to a broader audience? And this includes, you know, consideration such as the format, right? Audiobook, ebook. Translations, right? As well as ensuring that the physical books are affordable and available in multiple locations, including underserved communities. And editorial excellence, right, the importance of that, right, and maintaining high editorial standards to ensure that the content is not only engaging and and well written, but also well researched and factually accurate. Accuracy, right? Especially for non-fiction work that deals with sensitive or controversial topics. We have a responsibility to get it right and tell the story how it's told and not try to incorporate some type of bias or slant to shape history or erase a history.

Anderson P. Smith: 35:08

So, you know, by focusing on those areas are those who, you know, produce books. Right? They can ensure that work positively contributes to society. And promote cultural empathy, education, and social consciousness.

Arthur Attwell: 35:21

Thank you. Because these books are gonna be discussed. Great. And we want people to have real stories the way they see themselves in those stories to discuss.

Anderson P. Smith: 35:28

Absolutely.

Arthur Attwell: 35:29

Anderson, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much.

Anderson P. Smith: 35:32

No. Thank you for having me.

Arthur Attwell: 35:33

This work has been such an eye opener to me. It certainly made me interested in finding out whether there are literature programmes at the prisons and in the programmes that are here in Cape Town in South Africa.

Anderson P. Smith: 35:45

Yes.

Arthur Attwell: 35:45

Because rebuilding people is just so, so important.

Anderson P. Smith: 35:49

Absolutely.

Arthur Attwell: 35:50

And I love to see your work, and I'll be following it closely.

Anderson P. Smith: 35:53

Yes, yes, yes. And please share my website, anderson-p-smith-dot-com, and, you know, I'm on social media as well, Instagram and Twitter, at Bleeding Ink Andy. And, you know, I'm grateful for this conversation.

Arthur Attwell: 36:06

Thank you so much. We'll put all those links in the show notes so that people can know where to find you, find out more about your work, and keep discussing books.

Anderson P. Smith: 36:13

Sounds good.

Arthur Attwell: 36:13

Thanks again.

Anderson P. Smith: 36:14

Thank you.

Arthur Attwell: 36:15

Speak again soon. This episode was edited by Helen le Roux and researched by Kate Southwood. How Books Are Made is supported by Electric Book Works, where we develop and design books for organisations around the world. You can find us online at electricbookworks.com.