Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, what are you doing with your littlest toasters?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to this show everybody I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today, we're talking about the kids. Sarah Armstrong is the author of The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce, and she's here to talk to us about what it means to truly put the kids first in the divorce process. She's also VP of global marketing operations at Google, and serves as a mentor to other women in the business. Sarah, welcome to the Toaster.
Sarah Armstrong:
Thank you for having me. Great to be here.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, can I get a title like VP of global marketing operations at Google?
Pete Wright:
Let me just assure you, I assure you Seth, you haven't earned it.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. A simple, no, would've been nice.
Pete Wright:
A response from me isn't enough if I don't turn the shiv a little bit, don't you think? Haven't you learned that about me? Sarah, we're so glad to have you here to talk about this. Kick us off. What made you a good divorce advocate? What does that mean? And how are you that person?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. Interesting question. Well, first I think to start with, I'm actually not an advocate for divorce. Let's start there.
Seth Nelson:
All right, so sorry, we have to close the show right now, so see you next week here at the Toaster.
Sarah Armstrong:
No, no. And in fairness, because I think if couples can stay married and happily married, that is the goal, right? That is the goal in life. I start with no one gets married to get divorced, right? And no one gets divorced for good reasons, unfortunately, but when children are involved, the stakes are high. And so the way I became this good divorce proponent is I went through divorce and I had watched really ugly divorces growing up. My parents actually have been married for 54 years and are one of the most happily married couples I know, but I watched a lot of ugly divorces. So when I got to the point where that was what I was going to be going through, my ex-husband or soon to be ex-husband and I talked about the way we would want to go through this, because our daughter, Grace, who was seven at the time, was the most important thing to both of us.
And so we went through the process, we took a specific way of going through this divorce. And then over the years, interestingly enough, I had a number of friends that would come to me and say to me, "will you help me through my divorce? I've decided to do this. And you did it, you had this good divorce". And so I helped them through the process. And at the end of helping these different women, they would say, "you should really write this stuff down". And I'd laugh more... [crosstalk 00:02:58]
Pete Wright:
More than just imposed it note.
Seth Nelson:
And you slowly get suckered into writing a book.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That that's how this stuff happens.
Sarah Armstrong:
That was the crazy part is I had never- as you said, I'm in marketing and I never fashioned myself a writer, an author. And so actually this is the way the story goes, I was at a business dinner in Latin America with a group of Latin men, in fact, and a colleague of my attorney-
Seth Nelson:
As you do, when you're in Latin America. I was in Sweden-
Pete Wright:
In Latin America hey just call them men.
Seth Nelson:
I was going to say, in Sweden, I was at dinner with Latin American people. How does this work?
Pete Wright:
There it's okay.
Sarah Armstrong:
And in having dinner with all of them, I had a friend of mine who turn to me and he said- a colleague of mine said, "Sarah, you're so happy". And I said, "yeah," and he said, "but you're divorced". And I said, "well, getting divorce is not a death sentence. My ex-husband and I just decided to no longer be married to each other. And yes, I'm happy. My ex-husband's happy, Grace, our daughter's really happy". I said, "it is possible to be happy and divorced". So it's just an interesting thing to highlight, I said to him at that point, "people think I should really write down the approach I've taken". He goes, "you really should". So the next morning I got on my flight out of Mexico City and opened my laptop and wrote that this book is written by a girl who never, ever thought she would get a divorce, who got a divorce and what she learned along the way. And that's how this whole journey started.
Pete Wright:
Was your own divorce- how would you classify it? Was it a pretty one? An ugly one? How did it end up?
Sarah Armstrong:
You know what, interestingly enough, my divorce, I would absolutely classify it as a good divorce and I didn't classify it that way. Grace did at age eight.
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:04:47]
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, a year after our divorce, we were standing at a CVS checking out, and there was a people magazine on the newsstand and it had a celebrity couple getting divorced, and she looked at me and she goes, "mommy, is that a good divorce or a bad divorce?" And I said, "Grace, I don't know. What's the difference between a good divorce and a bad divorce". She goes, "well, a good divorce is when the mommy and dad are nice to each other, like you and daddy and a bad divorce is when they scream and yell at each other."
Pete Wright:
It makes my throat seize up and it's so beautiful.
Seth Nelson:
Kids get it, right? Pete, we've talked about this.
Pete Wright:
They see everything. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
They see it, they get it, they understand it. They watch everything you do at age seven and then a year later brings it back.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That's [inaudible 00:05:33]
Sarah Armstrong:
And she's the one that called. She is literally the one that called it a good divorce. And hence how I landed with that as part of the-
Seth Nelson:
And so how much is she asking for royalties on this book?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. Because she gets a sniff off of every sale, right?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. Well, she is referenced throughout. And in fairness, I gave it to her at age 12 when I finally wrote the book, I gave it to her. I said, "you need to read this and make sure that you're comfortable with what mom's sharing about your dad and my approach to our divorce and the impact it's had on you". Because I wanted to make sure she'd be comfortable with how we represented it. I left her alone, she read it and she came back and said, "mom, I think this is going to really help families that are going through this".
Seth Nelson:
Okay. So I've got a lot of kids that I love, but I'm looking to adopt your child.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. She's pretty amazing. She's pretty amazing stuff I have to say.
Seth Nelson:
Is she in college now or?
Sarah Armstrong:
She is, she's a freshman. She just finished her freshman year.
Seth Nelson:
Is she on scholarship?
Sarah Armstrong:
No.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Sarah Armstrong:
Great question.
Seth Nelson:
Maybe I won't adopt your child.
Sarah Armstrong:
She is an academic scholarship. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, Okay.
Sarah Armstrong:
[inaudible 00:06:33] than that. And she's a sharp one, but yeah, she's an amazing- I feel so fortunate to raise Grace, and actually in fairness with my ex-husband, we co-parented her and she's just a special kid.
Seth Nelson:
That's awesome.
Pete Wright:
All right. So let's dig just a little bit more into the constituent elements of a good divorce. What are the things you put into play to actually make sure that you are doing the things that are going to it land you at CVS, staring at a People Magazine and talking about how great your divorce was?
Sarah Armstrong:
The fundamental aspect of a good divorce is that a couple that's gone through divorce puts aside their personal feelings for one another and really focuses on what's best for their children. That's the fundamental underlying mindset and principle that I think everyone has to enter into for this to take place. And that's not easy.
Pete Wright:
Well, I was just going to say that is counter, I think, to your based sort of human instincts in entering into any sort of conflict agreement. Right?
Sarah Armstrong:
Completely, completely. But here's the thing, when a couple goes through divorce, right? And children are involved, the stakes are high, right? If you don't have children in fairness, it's a breakup in my view.
Seth Nelson:
With break with paperwork, with lawyers, but yeah, I hear that.
Sarah Armstrong:
Paperwork, lawyers and some financial considerations, but it's a break up.
Pete Wright:
A break up with more signatures.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. That's right.
Sarah Armstrong:
When you have these children involved, we owe it to them to ensure that they're not collateral damage due to this divorce. And so, I talk about, you get married and you decide you no longer would want to be married to each other. But we made a commitment in having a child that we were going to bring her up in the healthiest, happiest environment possible. And I joke but say in all seriousness, we cover the plugs, we make sure that they weren't bike helmets. We ensure they drink organic milk, all these things to make sure they're safe and happy, and healthy. And then when you go through a divorce, we can put them in one of the most toxic environments [crosstalk 00:08:33]
Seth Nelson:
You go through the divorce, you're like "lick this live wire".
Sarah Armstrong:
Exactly. Seriously, right? Let's put you in a toxic environment, a dangerous environment for you mentally and emotionally. And I think it's up to us to say, as parents, what is- and it is, it's taking a high road that is very hard to do. It's super hard because, to your point earlier Pete, it's not the natural inclination in the world of divorce to take that high road and set aside what you're feeling and put your children first. And I fundamentally think that's what couples lose sight of. And that's why the concept of a good divorce is-. It's really crazy with using that term. I don't think there's enough conversation in society about the concept of a good divorce, right? It's always the negativity that comes with it. And so, I would love for societal perception to change over the course of time so that a good divorce is actually an attainable outcome.
Pete Wright:
We did a show on English divorce, English law, and how divorce is handled across the pond. And one of the most interesting outcomes of that is the way a divorce is the legal dissolution of the relationship, is completely separated. The expectation of how you handle your familial separation and emotional breakup is on you. And that's culturally accepted. That it seems to be, that's a good divorce. We're going to grow up as a society, and we're going to have certain expectations of how we handle our relationships with our children through love and communication. And then here, Seth gets involved.
Seth Nelson:
See, Pete always brings it back to the big, bad mean divorce attorney. Pete, how many times I have to tell you, brother, I don't build him, I just fly them, right? And I tried to land these turbulent planes and we go from there, but to Sarah's point and about changing societal shifts, that happens one divorce at a time, right? And in as much respect that people show me and tell me, oh my God, Seth, you get along with your former spouse. Your kids are amazing. You both are bonded with him. You go to events together, you save seats for each other. You have now new stepparents involved and role models involved in his life. And it's just seems so easy. So many people respect us so much for that. And then in their own divorces, don't do it. Which blows my mind.
You're sitting here complimenting me, which thank you very much for the compliment. I've always done this for my child. My former spouse has always done this for her child. We were looking to get compliments, but they literally will say it and then they don't do it. Right? And it blows my mind and I'm like, I get that it takes two. However, you can minimize conflict just by where you sit. And I know you call this minimizing the gap, Sarah, explain that.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. Can I build on one thought that you just said, because the thing's that I have a similar situation, is I've had people that have marveled at gosh, you have such a good divorce and they'll say, I know one other couple that has a good divorce.
Pete Wright:
There's always that one other couple.
Sarah Armstrong:
You know though. I know. And I think, just one?
Seth Nelson:
The damn Jones' I don't like them. That's just trying to one up us. We're going to be nicer to each other.
Pete Wright:
It's a joke.
Sarah Armstrong:
See? That it just amazes me.
Pete Wright:
It is, because we resent that sort of kindness in a process when we can't find it ourselves.
Sarah Armstrong:
Right? I know one of the couple, I always say "wouldn't it be great if that was the norm?" You could say that the couples that unfortunately have to go through divorce, that they actually ended up in a good place, everyone's in a good place. So I just think that the point Seth made about people acknowledging it and really paying tribute to it in some way and saying, "gosh, that's great". But then if it does come around to their specific situation, it's not always the path they follow. And so again, that's a really interesting one. Now in terms of minimizing the gaps, interestingly enough, that was specifically addressing the physical impact that divorce has on children and their actual physical environment.
And so one of the things that I found in our situation is, I was going to stay in the home that we had raised Grace in, and my ex-husband was moving to another place. And I didn't want it to feel like her world was being pulled apart physically, like the physical environment. And so we did everything we could so that if there was a painting coming off the wall, there was a mirror. It might not be a painting, but there was a mirror being put up or there was the holes that could be created through the fact that we were divvying up household items and goods was not going to be such a visible representation.
Seth Nelson:
We did a show on this with Jamie Blumanthal, an interior designer who came on interior design and said...
Sarah Armstrong:
And talked about?
Seth Nelson:
"Hey, half the stuff just moved to the other house, how do you not make it feel empty? What do you do to fill the gaps?"
Pete Wright:
Creates a lot of holes.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. And actually the crazy part for us is we had a long hallway of black and white family photos. So it was a mix of my ex-husband and my family. And it was this beautiful-. It's a project they'd done years before. And I was so proud of this really beautiful montage of our lives. And when we were going through divorce, I thought, well, I need to give him his black and white photos. So I took the time, and this was quite a project to get other photos frame in new frames though.
So I sent Grace down the street for a play date, again, she was seven. And I took the time to take those photos off, put them in a box, put new photos up. And then she came back, two hours later and I'm in the kitchen and I hear this voice out of the hallway say, "Hey mom", I go, "what's that Grace?" She said, "the wall has changed". And I stopped in my tracks and I said, "well, what's changed?" She said, "there are more pictures of me up there, it looks great". And she ran up to her room.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Cause as you started that story, my stomach started to hurt because I was very nervous with the direction that could turn. Did you just break your daughter? That's fantastic.
Sarah Armstrong:
Well, and the crazy part was Pete, is that if I had not taken the time to put other photos up there and I'd left those little hangers, right. Years later, Grace would be in therapy, telling the therapist, my parents got a divorce. My mom took all of my dad's family photos off the wall and she left those little hangs.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Emptiness.
Seth Nelson:
And another nugget here that is so slight and nuanced. I want to point out, you put more photos of her up. Kids are self-centered as they should be.
Sarah Armstrong:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
At age seven, it's hard to teach empathy. We work hard on it. There's a bigger world out there. It's not always about you. But in this situation, it is about them. How is this impacting their lives? And she's like, wow, I got more photos of me. I don't give a shit that dad's not in the photo.
Sarah Armstrong:
It didn't occur to her, right.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. Now on the photo bit, I will tell you, in a credit to my former spouse. When we were dating, I took a picture of myself doing a headstand on a piece of furniture when we weren't living in the same city. And I sent it to her, just being silly or whatever. And she got it framed and she had it up. And when we got divorced, she took that picture and put it in my son's room. And there was always a picture of me. And I think it's still- he's 18 now, we got divorced when he was two. So I think that picture's been in his room for 16 years. And there's always any picture you always one of his mom or his sister, anybody. Grandma, it's your room, man. You want to put it up in the living room, that's fine with me too. So pictures are powerful.
Sarah Armstrong:
They're powerful and actually in Grace's room similar, we had a wall of family photos and those all stayed up after the divorce. So her grandparents, her aunt and uncle on her dad's side.
Seth Nelson:
I thought you were going to tell me and Sarah in Grace's room, you had that same picture of me.
Sarah Armstrong:
Your ex-wife sent it to me.
Seth Nelson:
How would you have it? I have it right here above my monitor. Yeah.
Sarah Armstrong:
But we did the same thing. We just moved out of Atlanta and they were up until she was 18, now from seven to 18. They were all there.
Seth Nelson:
And that's powerful, I think. And I don't think we've talked about this Pete, before that I recall is that, having pictures up of your former spouse with your child is powerful. It's accepted. I get it, it's dad it's mom, whatever the case may be. So little nugget.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
Hey Pete, it's back to school season. It's coming up. It can be difficult. As for anyone going through a divorce, let's be honest. Back to school is difficult for everybody. It's just heightened when you're going through a divorce, and it's especially true if we're dealing with some parents that might be suffering from alcoholism, or if you're just being accused of overindulging. And the kid's safety is always first.
Pete Wright:
Well, that's why at hospital toaster, we're all about saving your relationships through the divorce process. We want to make sure that it is even, that everybody in the divorce process is cared for. And sometimes you just need data in order to help make that case. And that's why we have partnered with Soberlink to help offer resources, to help you navigate this upcoming back to school season.
Seth Nelson:
So Soberlink's a remote alcohol monitoring technology. It's created to help prove your sobriety in custody cases. That's how you have to view this, view it, as I can get independent third party verification that I'm not drinking and therefore the kids are safe. And therefore I can spend quality time with my kids. It's a high tech breathalyzer device with facial recognition and it allows you to send in the other party to receive real time updates to monitor you at any time, anywhere allowing for swift intervention. If you slip up and you have a drink when you shouldn't be. They've helped hundreds of thousands of people document improve their sobriety in real time for peace of mind in child custody cases.
Pete Wright:
Soberlink is currently offering a free back to school and divorce packet, that includes a Q and a with a top divorce attorney back to school checklist, communication tips and more, and you can get it. Given our guest today, I would love to be able to just say Google it, but I'm going to even save you that trouble. You don't even have to just Google it. I'm just going to tell you where to go. Soberlink.com/toaster. That's www.soberlink.com/toaster. Download your back to school and divorce packet today and check out Soberlink. They help a lot of people, maybe they'll help you too. Our great thanks to Soberlink for being a sponsor of How To Split A Toaster.
Let's dig into some more routines that make solid sense for keeping your kids saying this is great and not I miss the other house, I miss being at dad's house. How did you go about crafting the routines to support Grace?
Sarah Armstrong:
No, it's a great question. So one of the hardest moments I'd say of our early conversations around the divorce was we sat down with a child specialist right before we told Grace and he looked at me and he said, "Sarah, do you travel?" And I said, "yeah, I travel internationally for my job". And he looked at my ex-husband, he said, "do you travel?" And he said, "yeah, I travel domestically". He said, "well, Grace is about to become a professional traveler for the next 11 years until she heads off to college". And honestly I burst into tears. Because he said, she's going to pack a bag every week. And, and I just was like, ugh. And so we left that session and we sat down afterwards and I said to my ex-husband, I said, "I want to do everything we can to minimize the feeling that Grace is going to have that she's a professional traveler.
And I'm not sure what that looks like yet. We need to think about it, but this is so important, because she's not the one that wanted to choose to move between two homes every week, right? That's is not something she chose". So we went through and again, there's some socioeconomic considerations here, but we did make the effort to make sure she had all the fundamentals of the clothes in both homes. So when she had it off to school and would end up going to dad's house or mom's house afterwards, she wasn't having to think about the bags she was supposed to carry on top of her backpack.
So she just showed up at that house and the things now, special items, pair of dress shoes, the things that you might only buy one of, we'd have to figure out how those got to where they needed to be. But the fundamentals of life that allowed her to kind of not have that be the sentiment every week was so important. And so we took that as a very serious part of our kind of commitment to her, of her living across two homes and how could we ease that. So if things got out of balance and there were too many socks at one house, it wasn't up to Grace to figure that out.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I was just thinking that, because I had the same situation with Kai. How did too many socks get to one house? I mean literally I would call my former spouse and say, "I only have two pairs of shorts here and I'm pretty sure every time he came home from school, he was wearing shorts". It's like I do not know how that physically happens, but it does.
Sarah Armstrong:
I agree. I agree. So Seth, I called it a rebalancing. So we do rebalancing.
Seth Nelson:
Oh my god.
Sarah Armstrong:
And on a given Sunday, whoever was bringing Grace to the other's house would rebalance and bring the extra [inaudible 00:22:38] you're right. It was always the sock. It was just a weird-
Seth Nelson:
When kids are little, they have their school uniforms whatever, blue shirt or white shirt. And I get it if I end up with 10 blue shirts and the 10 dirty white shirts end up at mom's house. But how do I end up with 18 shirts? To this day it is a mystery to me. But I appreciate what you're saying about those special items because when Kai was little, two and a half going back and forth, shoved in the bottom of his backpack was his blanket. Right? And this is like one of the best things I think about his childhood, is when he got his little blanket as a baby and his older sister who was six, and his mother wanted to name the blanket. It was all of these very, what I would associate with girly names, right. And I'm like, this is a boy, you can't name this thing, Flowery or something, right. And so I called it- I don't even know girly names anymore, Pete. It's been so long.
Pete Wright:
That's obvious. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Thank you. But I named it Girlfriend. I said, "it's his girlfriend" and it stuck.
Sarah Armstrong:
Are you serious?
Seth Nelson:
I'm not making this up. It stuck. And so literally we would say, "where's girlfriend?" And so now that he's 18 and he actually has a girlfriend. I get to say shit like "you're not his first girlfriend, you know? And I want to let he was sleeping with his girlfriend for a lot of years."
Pete Wright:
He treated his first girlfriend very well.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Yeah. He would cry when we put her in the washing machine.
Pete Wright:
That is gruesome parental humor. That's gruesome. I have a question for both of you that I don't think I've ever thought about, and maybe I should have. Sarah, I'll let you start. How do you think the experience that Grace had going back and forth has impacted her in her ability to adapt to change? Have you noticed anything about her personality?
Sarah Armstrong:
Absolutely. Yeah. I think any child and I know Grace, I can say, because we've discussed it. I think they become very adaptive to new environments or in to settling in and making a place feel comfortable because of the back and forth nature of her life. And so I think the adaptive nature, for sure. The one interesting reflection, she never once in the, 11 years that she went back and forth, never once complained. Never once said, I don't want to do this or those things. But as she was packing for college, one night she came home and she had stuff at dad's house in my house and trying to figure out all that she was going to pack. And she said, "mom, I'm calling this the great consolidation".
Pete Wright:
That's right.
Sarah Armstrong:
And I go, "why is that?" She goes, "it's going to be the first time in my life in 11 years where all my stuff is in one place".
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Yep. I totally get that. I totally get that.
Sarah Armstrong:
Right? And I said to her Grace, I said, "I'm so happy you get to do the great consolidation because you have done an amazing job...
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Sarah Armstrong:
...of going back and forth between dad's house and my house for 11 years. And you have never once complained or given us a hard time. You've gone out with, and-"
Seth Nelson:
But Sarah, did you follow it up with good luck fitting it in your dorm room?
Sarah Armstrong:
That reality came later, Seth. I didn't want to break it all to her at one [inaudible 00:26:23]
Pete Wright:
Let the sweetness live on for just a minute.
Seth Nelson:
I think Pete to your point, there's another side to adapting to change and its logistics. As much and as impressive as Sarah is and everything she's done in her life and being at Google, I always would joke that Kai is going to run UPS because this kid knows logistics. He knows how to get his stuff back and forth and where to go. And he got in, out of all the thousands of parenting plans I've helped people do, no one has ever once done the crazy parenting plan that Kai had, because Kai had an older half sister who would go to her dad's. And so he was coming to mine, so we organized this plan where sometimes the kids would be together at mom's. And sometimes they had one on one time. And that created what would look like a very imbalanced, crazy schedule on paper. But when you realize there were other factors, it made sense, right.
And then Kai, when he was little would come home and it'd be like the third week, second week of school. And he's in third grade, kindergarten, first, whatever. He goes, "dad, figured it out". I'm like, "figured what out?" He goes, "I got the whole routine." I'm like, "what routine buddy? You got your classes, you got your folder. You're [inaudible 00:27:41]" He's like, "no". He's like "the teachers, they start in the lunchroom on Monday. Then they go to car line on Tuesday and then they get a break. And then they're out on recess on Thursday, because they get a break on..." He knew where they all were in their rotations. And he would just look at logistics like that and map them out in his head because he was constantly on this crazy routine. I thought going back and forth and he can do it to this day. And I'm convinced when he's running UPS, I'm going to say it's because I got divorced.
Pete Wright:
It's either UPS or a serial killer set. That's kind of some stalker material, I think that you need to worry about Kai.
Seth Nelson:
If he's whacking anyone I'm going first, so you'll know. Don't worry about it. So does Grace do something similar? Is she good at knowing where everything's going? Where it's going? How it's going?
Sarah Armstrong:
She does. Honestly, the ability to kind of maneuver the day and figure out where she needs to be and the things she needed, and yeah, it is very much, I would agree. I hadn't thought about it in that way, but I think logistics to your point, there's so many fundamental day to day logistics of life that co-parenting you already have if you're in one house, and when you go across two homes and have to figure out how all that's going to work without it making everyone crazy, it does take some effort. And I think parenting plans, as you mentioned, are a really fundamental piece of the puzzle to put as much in that parenting plan as possible. That helps avoid the debates of some of those logistics that can get interesting down the road.
Pete Wright:
I want to turn the conversation to you and your former spouse because you both said you travel, internationally, domestically, you travel. And now you're traveling in a split household, insights that you have gleaned from making that work.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, well I think a couple things. One is we were supportive of each other's careers and the fact that travel was part of it. And so if one of us had to be out of the country or out of town, then the other would take Grace. And so we had that understanding within our parenting plan, that that was the first option. But if for some reason the person couldn't take her, then we always had a nanny in our lives. I always say it takes a village to raise a child and we didn't have family nearby. So we really had a fundamental need to have a nanny that was always partnering with us to raise Grace. And that nanny would be able to stay overnight if needed. But we always started with the option of the other one taking her and kind of first read refusal per say.
Seth Nelson:
And, and that's the legal term for what makes common sense, right? A first refusal, right?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
I'm going out of town and I'm unavailable. Oh, would you like to spend time with our child before I give them to somebody else? And people will argue about this forever, Pete.
Pete Wright:
You mean the couple? The [inaudible 00:30:40] splitting couple right. First refusal.
Seth Nelson:
Yep. How many hours are you going to be gone? No, I don't want to have a right at first refusal if it's four hours, I want it to be 10 hours. I'm like, okay. But you're not there, if you are not there, wouldn't you want...?
Pete Wright:
Why does it matter?
Seth Nelson:
Right. It matters.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
It matters.
Sarah Armstrong:
But wouldn't you want your child with the other parent if that's an option? I always say for the betterment of the child, I mean, putting them first again is that foundational Principle.
Seth Nelson:
And then they say, well, no, because I want the grandparents to see them, I'm like, I get it. But in a divorce your best day is you get 50%. So if the other parent's unavailable, you should get more time with your kid. And I'm not saying the kid never gets to do a sleepover.
Sarah Armstrong:
No. No,
Seth Nelson:
Or, they get to be kids. So anyway...
Sarah Armstrong:
No, I think it is. The fact that people [two 00:31:35] point have debate those is hard to cure. Because I think those are again, so foundational to having a place where your kids were put first in the conversation.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Go ahead.
Pete Wright:
You're highlighting things in our note, I know there's very important one that means-
Seth Nelson:
Well, this one's just always big to me. And I actually just recently got a call from a judge about this. That's why I want to hit on this one Pete. Is that you sit together at activities because your kids deserve the show of support from both parents.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes. Yes. So gosh. So Seth, when you were mentioning people admiring how you approach your divorce and one of the things people would always say to us is it was amazing to see that we always went to Grace's soccer game and stood next to each other on the sidelines, or sat next to each other at a school event. And so again, that was something we thought was really important is that if she's sitting out on the field or at an event and looking out, looking for us, that she's seen both of her parents there smiling back at her, because that's what she deserves.
But the interesting moment we had when she was in sixth grade is we went to a parent teacher conference, and we went in and it was my ex-husband and myself and Grace and the teacher. And we went through about an hour discussion about how Grace was doing in school. And at the end of the discussion, the teacher stopped and she looked at us and she said, "are you too divorced?" And I said, "well, yes, we've been divorced since Grace was in first grade". She said, "I had no idea". And I looked her and said, "it didn't occur to us to tell you, I mean, that's not something we would walk in and say, 'oh, by the way, we're divorced'. Can we now talk about Grace's education?"
Seth Nelson:
It's an odd opening for a teacher conference.
Sarah Armstrong:
Exactly. Yeah. And so she said, "you would not believe how few parents and divorced couples can come into this office and sit down and talk about their children's education for an hour. It is so infrequent and it makes me so sad." And I acknowledge her, I said "that makes me really sad too". And by the way, Grace is hearing this whole discussion. But it was a moment and she goes, "I just wish other couples that are divorced would see how important it is to come in and sit here for an hour and talk about their child and how they're doing in school". So it was just one of those moments of reflection of, we've always decided that we would show up together for those moments where Grace deserved for us to be there together.
Pete Wright:
That's lovely.
Seth Nelson:
You're looking like you're at [Oh 00:34:00]. Yeah. And to that point, it all starts right when you're at all these other events, and you're at the field and that's what-. A judge recently called me and said, "Hey, I was listening to the podcast and it helped me settle this case". And I said, "what do you mean?" One, I didn't even know he listened to it. And-
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:34:19] respecting judge is listening to this show.
Seth Nelson:
I know. Really, exactly. Let me tell you, they got enough to do, but he said it was all about sitting together or if you're in that much conflict, you sit in the same line. Like if you're five rows back, but you're visually in the same line. So when your child looks up at you, they can see both of you. And they don't have to pick which parent they look to. Right? And they don't have to go to two parent teacher conferences and listen the same thing twice and yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. Yeah. And so again, these are fundamental decisions you have to make as a couple that are hard, by the way, it goes back to the high road I mean. You probably wouldn't choose to sit next to your ex spouse, right? That wouldn't be your first choice. But at these moments, it isn't about our first choice. It's about what is best for our children.
Seth Nelson:
I would choose to. She's very nice. Now I don't think she wants to sit next to me.
Sarah Armstrong:
But you just never know. And there's a lot of emotion, but I just think if it can be done, I think it's one of the best things you can do to show your children that you're there for them.
Pete Wright:
Can I ask a question about you?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes. Sure.
Pete Wright:
How do you do it? We have so many conversations about how we deal with kids, and how we deal with separation. And here you are in a position as an executive at a global concern, and you travel internationally. And at some point this whole... The sort of aesthetic of the working mom has got to have been a challenge. And I would love to hear you comment a little bit about how you help other women in business, women executives, divorced moms navigate these particular waters.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, thank you for asking the question. I think it's interesting because growing up, I always knew I wanted to be in business and I also knew I wanted to have a family. I knew I wanted to do both. I knew I wanted to have a career
Seth Nelson:
And the circus was out, right.
Pete Wright:
Is that not one of them?
Sarah Armstrong:
I wasn't going to make the circus. I wasn't going to make the circus. I played volleyball in college. I would've loved to have played [pro 00:36:30], but...
Seth Nelson:
And I wanted to travel, like the circus was really it for you, okay.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes. And so, but it is interesting because going from the mental model of being a working mom in a married household, to going to becoming a single working mom and still having both the aspirations of being a mom that's there for your child, but also, juggling a career. And in this instance a clear that was global in nature. It was definitely a lot to think through, but I was very fortunate, A to have a ton of both support. And I will say my ex-husband was very supportive. We were supportive of each other, doing what we could in our careers, both during our marriage in fairness and after. And I feel very fortunate that we were in that situation. But in terms of helping other women think through this, I always, I call it the juggling act of being a working mom and working parent, because there's many fathers that do this too.
And the juggling act becomes much more complex when you go through divorce and you go into that single nature. And so you really have to think about what's important to you and how you're structuring your day and how you're prioritizing. And you're already doing that once you have a child and then you go into that single nature of the working moms juggling act, and you get incredibly good at prioritizing and incredibly good at making decisions that are A going to be best for your child and for you. And then honestly other things might need to fall by the waist side while you focus on your kids and yourself and in the career. But it is a lot, but it is doable. I really believe it's doable. And I've had many conversations with women around the world on this topic. And I think that women realizing that they can have their career and raise their children and even in a divorce situation is a really important thing that I'd want women to know.
Seth Nelson:
Now you've had the benefit of having these conversations around the world. Are there different cultural aspects to divorce and how it gets viewed and how things play out in different societies that you've had the opportunity to experience or witness?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes. I'd say the observation-. First of all, there's a lot of universal truths to divorce regardless of where they take place. So I am finding that first and foremost, where there's some nuances culturally, but the fundamental things that were challenged with, whether we're in the US, whether we're in Australia, whether we're in South Africa, whether we're in the UK or India. There's definitely [crosstalk 00:39:04]
Seth Nelson:
That's typically where I travel to go to court. She just hit the top five.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:39:09]
Seth Nelson:
Right. Yeah. Right.
Sarah Armstrong:
But, the interesting thing is there's a lot of universal truths and actually I'm in the process of having my book translated into as many languages as possible because I think the guidance is universal and could be applied in whatever culture you're living in. But there are again to your point there's, laws and there's things that are in the more legal realm that are maybe more of the nuances of the divorce process, but the things I'm talking about in terms of raising your children in a divorce situation, with a co-parent. I think that most of those I've found to be fairly universal.
Seth Nelson:
And we talk about co-parenting, traveling, prioritizing. Have you or your former spouse brought any new people into your lives and how do you fold that in? How did you have those conversations with Grace and with your former spouse?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, it's a great question. So yes, we both have been in long term relationships since our divorce and, I think we've taken slightly different paths of how we've integrated or not integrated those individuals into our day to day lives. But I think in both instances, we've been very open with Grace about the relationship, what it means, where she fits into that and how we're looking to kind of live our lives longer term. And she's, I think seen the benefit of seeing both of her parents really happy in their respective relationships. And actually having a healthy, again, co-parenting relationship. So I feel like she's kind of been able to acknowledge and understand that, again, her parents are happy with who they're with now, but she also sees us interacting in a healthy manner with each other. And so that part, I think is-. Every divorce in every post divorce scenario is very different when it comes to those situations and relationships. But I think it's for you to figure out what works for you and your kids in those instances.
Pete Wright:
It's fascinating. And I think a real gift that she's been able to adapt and it sounds like see this as sort of a curse of riches. That there are more people in her life that she can adapt to. I imagine, we've talked about tough kid relationships before on the show that it's not always easy, but it sounds like a good divorce puts that first too.
Sarah Armstrong:
It puts that first too, absolutely. And in my ex-husband's instance the woman he's been with has a son who's actually very much close to Grace's age and they've almost grown up as siblings, even though they did not actually technically get married and have that formal structure, but it's almost like having a brother and she had always wanted another sibling. So I'm like, and now you have one. So I mean... [crosstalk 00:41:57]
Seth Nelson:
That I did not have birth. Thank your father.
Sarah Armstrong:
Exactly. And so I think that you're right. I think we've tried to take the positives of these situations and make them-. Again, I don't think any of us, I can tell you, I know this for a fact for myself, I never ever imagined getting divorced. It was not something that I envisioned happening in my life. And having Grace, having to go through all that we went through to figure out how to do this. There was just a lot of conscious decisions we made and a lot of conversation we had to think through of how we wanted to do this with her as the focus.
Seth Nelson:
Now you make this sound easy. And Grace has done this amazing-. She's adjusted well, she never complained. So one, was it that easy? And two, one happens if a kid doesn't do well with change? Did you have to battle those things? Or did you make some mistakes that then you learned from that maybe one of our listeners would be like, oh shit, I didn't know that was a mistake I'm making.
Sarah Armstrong:
Absolutely. So yeah. So first of all, it's not easy and I know I can make it sound easy because of where we are, 12 years post divorce now, but the effort and the mental and emotional and physical energy it takes to do this, it does take effort that is above and beyond what you probably would think. And so it is not an easy thing, but it is a worthwhile effort. And I'd say at least from my standpoint, I would do it all over again in the way that we did it, because of where I think we've collectively landed as a family. Now interesting, when you say, what have you-. There's definitely things I do differently. And one of the early moments was when Grace and I were on a spring break vacation together and she was eight or nine years old. It was a year or two after. And it's after she'd acknowledged us having a good divorce, but we're sitting, looking at a family that was at another table and she goes, that's a real family.
Seth Nelson:
Oh.
Sarah Armstrong:
And I looked her, I said, "Grace, we're a real family". She's like, "no, we're not". She's like "we don't have a mommy and a daddy and a sister and a brother". And I'm thinking well, and to your point earlier, I'm like, well, I'm not sure you were going to have a brother, but okay. But she said that, we weren't a real family. And so I went back and that child specialist I mentioned earlier was someone I still kind of tapped into on moments when I felt like, oh, I might need some coaching here. And I replayed the scenario. And I said to him what I had said to her and he goes, you should not have told her she was wrong. That was her perspective. And that's what she was seeing. And that was her reality of what she saw as a family structure at that moment.
He's like she will learn over the course of time that there's different family structures. And especially in this day and age, things have evolved a lot, but that was her reflection. And, and she was right in feeling that and articulating that to you. And it wasn't your place to tell her, she was wrong. And that that wasn't true. And so it was just a really interesting moment because it hurt me. And then that was a moment where the emotional side of me wants to defend where we are.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, right. No, no, no. Hey, look at what mom and dad don't live in the same house. We give you all this love. Look at how fortunate all with everything that we have socioeconomically. It's like, you just start piling on all the good things you're doing, right?
Sarah Armstrong:
Right. Right. But at the end of it, that was her perception. And that was real for her. And that's what she saw as a real family. And so regardless of what I was going to tell her at that moment, to his point was regardless of what you said, it wasn't going to register because that was what she saw. And that was what she was [crosstalk 00:45:33]
Seth Nelson:
Because that's what's in the box, right?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes. Right.
Seth Nelson:
So, I had a similar experience, but it has this twist to it, which just broke my heart. Kai was two and a half when we split up, and from his entire life, his sister would always go to her dad's house. And then he would come to my house. And so this was normal, not having your parents live in the same house to him was normal. And we had some friends that lived in the same condo complex, and they were married. They had children close to Kai's age and we would hang out with them and I'll never forget it. He was in his car seat, strapped in and we're driving. And he asked me, "why do these children's parents live in the same house?" And I said, "because they're married". And he says, "well, are you and mommy ever going to be married?" And I said, "no, we were married. But we thought it was better to not be married and live in separate houses".
And a huge crocodile tear came down his cheek. And I felt like the worst parent ever. And then that night I put him to bed, and he talks to his mom every night when he is with me, I put him to bed and I called her back and I said, "I want to tell you what happened today. Here's how I handled. It explained that we still both love him and all this stuff". And I don't remember exactly what she said other than also being heartbroken and then followed it up with something, because she's very funny, like glad that was on your watch, you know? Like I feel horrible hearing this story, you handled it as best you could. Thank you for calling and God, I'm glad I didn't... But it's very similar, right? She always thought in your case, that's what it was supposed to be like. And when he realized that was out there, ugh. Brutal.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. And that that wasn't his reality, right?
Seth Nelson:
Crushing.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. So it is crushing. Those are moments. And so to say that any of this is easy, none of this is easy and fairness and there's moments that really bring you to a point of just heartache and heartbreak in many ways.
Seth Nelson:
Did Grace ever feel like she wanted to go talk to someone, even though things were going well because she viewed things differently? Is that something she-?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, it's a great question. Well, because we actually, I should have mentioned this. We went through a collaborative divorce process and as I mentioned, we had the child specialist was introduced early on in the process. So at age seven, she went to see, we referred to him as Mr. David. And Mr. David was a part of her life for about six months there. And then later on about a year and a half or so later she asked if she could go back and see Mr. David. And she asked for it and I said, absolutely. I go, he is always there for you. And so she went back and spent some more sessions talking to him. And so I think understanding that there's people that are there for you, that aren't your parents or aren't your friends or aunts and uncles that you can go and talk to, I think is really important for children to know.
And I was thankful that A, we had found the right type of individual that could talk to Grace about what she was feeling, but also that she understood that she could go to at any point and she asked to, so yes. So yes, to all of the above and I felt it was a really important piece of the support we needed to give her at the age that we were going through this with her.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. There's an interesting thing. You, you both have me thinking about right now. I know we can maybe use this as a way to get toward wrapping up, that this whole discussion of what the conditions are that create a family. I think we are at a point where that like so many other ideas is being referred to on a spectrum, right? And I've been married for many years and never been divorced. And my daughter is now off going into her junior year in college. And she started using four or five years ago, the term family of choice, which is, I know a term that is used, in divorce circles and has been quite often.
But I had never heard it in the context of her close friend group that she was using this term family of choice. And it hurt my feelings at the time. I was like, wait a minute. That's reserved for this guy. And, what was so interesting about that to me is that she and her peer cohort were able to compartmentalize these two ideas of family that meant something equally important and deep to them. And I thought that was actually really special. And maybe yet another sign of the adaptation that we're going through as parents and as kids, which is interesting to me.
Sarah Armstrong:
No, it's very interesting. No, I think if you look at the family structure evolution that's happening just in society as a whole right now, Pete, and then the concept of family of choice, which is definitely coming, it's more prevalent as a term. I think this generation, your daughter, Grace, and kids that are grown up now, that will probably be more of a common, mental model that you have your family and then you choose and also think for kids these days. And we could probably all say, this is some reflection. You choose your friends, right? You choose those people that you want to spend time with. You don't get to choose your family, but hopefully you are happy with that family.
Pete Wright:
I guess you hope to choose to stay with them.
Sarah Armstrong:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
To that point though, all the parents that I talk to, I say, "play the long game. When you're going to trial over a parenting plan and your kid is 12. We're really arguing over six years. What about when they're 22 and 32?"
Pete Wright:
What are they going to think about this moment?
Seth Nelson:
Right. What do they think about this litigation? How is that going to impact your relationship? Because ultimately- we were laughing about this at lunch, because the whole team had lunch together. When you're not paying the bill anymore for them, you're going to find out whether they really want to hang out with you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah,
Sarah Armstrong:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
So.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll tell you, Sarah, you're a champ. Thanks for sitting through this with the likes of us.
Sarah Armstrong:
I enjoyed it.
Pete Wright:
We're really honored to have you here in I think what might be the cruelest statement of irony on the whole show. If I Google Sarah Armstrong, you are not first. There's no way to put your thumb on the scale a little bit?
Seth Nelson:
At Google, what is happening here?
Pete Wright:
What is going on right now? If you don't have this influence Sarah Armstrong, what do you have?
Seth Nelson:
I don't want to name a Google competitor, but maybe we should try them as the search engine.
Pete Wright:
See where [eque 00:52:52] really lies.
Sarah Armstrong:
I love that. I mean that is hysterical. In fairness, I don't Google myself often, so I haven't actually checked where I'm coming up on the search results. It's not something I do, but no...
Pete Wright:
That means you do have to actually tell us where to find you.
Sarah Armstrong:
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. So I have a website that's The Mom's Guide To A Good Divorce, but you can get to it easily at gooddivorce.guide actually. And then you can reach me at sarahgooddivorce.com. And I think the thing to now acknowledge is my book is out on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. It is available on Paperback. It's available as in [ibook 00:53:32] ebook and also it's available on audible, I went into the studio actually during the pandemic.
Pete Wright:
You read it?
Sarah Armstrong:
Yes I did. I did. And actually it was an...
Pete Wright:
It's hard work.
Sarah Armstrong:
...experience. It's hard. It's very hard. Yeah. It's hard work to hear yourself by the way. And yeah, so there's amazing things when you read out loud and realize how you sound and how that all comes together, but the reason I've done the three versions is I think women and parents that are going through this may not be comfortable having the book on their bedside table. And if they want to have it, on an iPad or if they want to listen to it on a long walk.
Seth Nelson:
You mean there's a problem when your husband thinks you're happily married in that book is at your bed side table? Come on.
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:54:11] You don't want to see. Guides to better sex and guides to a good divorce.
Sarah Armstrong:
I know I had a good friend who wanted to read it and she tore the front cover up. And not because she was looking for a good divorce, she just wanted to read my book and supported me. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I would've sent you the ebook. So no, but it is out there. And I just hope that it can help as many women and individuals as popular are going through divorce, because it is something that is one of the most challenging things you can do in life. And, it is hard, but there's a way to go through it that I think can help to actually hopefully end up in a much better place for everyone involved and there's happiness after divorce. If you approach in a certain way.
Pete Wright:
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. All the links will be in the show notes. Thank you so much, Sarah. And thank you. It it's been a real treat on behalf of Sarah Armstrong, author of the Mom's Guide To Good Divorce. And on behalf of Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney. I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next week right here on How To Split A Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG divorce and family law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How To Split A Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG divorce and family law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
